NY 215: HMS Erebus - Game Over!

[Io]

Wahoo!
I love stalking threads at 12:30 in the morn.
Definatly better than sleep.

VOTE: gamma

[Io]

ok guys

your carry is here

VOTE: garmr

Don't worry

She's been here

[Io]

What does the numbers next to the names mean?
I mean I can see the ones on the left are the vote count, but why does mine have 2 whereas the others are just 1. Is it a post count?

[Io]

ok guys

your carry is here

VOTE: garmr

Don't worry

She's been here

its a race to see who gets nightkilled first

Then you can just go ahead and sit down now hon.

[Io]

Then you can just go ahead and sit down now hon.

i beg to differ

im about to obvtown so quick itll be scary

Well I don't think Maf will just night kill themselves night 1

But if you wanna do that go ahead

[Io]

VOTE: CT

Nice scumslip page 2.

At least I don't have to try to scumhunt the rest of the day.

[Io]

Honestly it was mostly a joke.
Although I did actually dislike post 30. Something about the mix of casualness and questioning someone's obvious RVSvote didn't really sit right with me. It comes off as a scum trying to be friendly in their first post while still trying to seem like they are going to be taking the game serious with little room for fun.
Basically, it felt like you were putting too much effort into your first post, something I see more from scum than town.

The slight suspicion was also backed up just a few posts later too because post 36 again felt like you were trying to put a lot more effort into being as townie as you could as early as page 2.
Side note, I found it a bit funny in that post you said a good way to scumhunt is to look for people trying to dodge things and didn't address my vote on you until you were asked. It's nothing that is AI, but I found it funny.

tl;dr it was a semi-joke vote, but I'm keeping it because I haven't really had a reason to suspect you aren't scum trying overly hard to appear townie.

[Io]

@Io you do realize tictac was talking to Completly Trustworthy, right?

explain

@tictac see that would have been a possibly good idea, if it weren't stupid and no one would actually say that their scum-PT has good flavor

[Io]

@Io you do realize tictac was talking to Completly Trustworthy, right?

explain

really?

yes

[Io]

It's honestly not even really worth answering. I haven't exactly played Mafia in about a year.
I also just don't think it's a good idea to tell scum the optimal plays for them to do just in case they are clueless.
As for scum hunting you just need to rely on analysis of posts and have good pattern recognition, also push everything you see no matter how small it may be.

[Io]

If a player were to say they think meta is not a good scumhunting tool in my survey, then voted someone later on for the same reason, I would scumread them due to contradicting their earlier stated opinions. Also, people's reasons for answering questions and reactions to the posed survey can be AI as well. In one of my previous games, a scum player was the first to offer answers. In my experience, scum like doing things to gain towncred, such as being quick to answer my questions. In addition, a town player answering would help me understand their positions and general playstyle while also offering content to talk about. Overall, I find it is usually pretty good to have a RQS if you can get at least four responses from the other players.

Answering questions certainly is not going to get your town cred unless it's some question about a night action or something.
Also why not just wait a bit more for people to respond to it before saying that it's just to see who answered the questions as you think scum are likely to answer the question?
4 people hadn't even posted since before you made this post.

Yeah we played together gamma, but I ended up replacing out. At least in the only one I remember us playing together. I did only play like 3 or 4 games though.

[Io]

Hmph, if all of you town read me I can't deduce which of you are scum trying to suck up to me.

Nos, I need you to take over for a bit.

[Io]

Actually nevermind. It's definatly CT who is sucking up to me.
"Io seems town since they have a similar way of playing to me"

[Io]

I don’t know if I can kill that.
My weakness is cute kittens.

[Io]

VOTE: Malakittens

Gamma-Mala could be a thing.
119 is very pingy.

[Io]

Gamma, Mala, CT, and Lapsa are scum so at least 4

[Io]

Well for Lapsa I was mostly just observing him, not saying anything really. But his posts in general feel a tad scummy, admittedly it’s a very slight lean but could be bussing Mala.
119 is fencesitting, basically he’s saying that he could see both scum and town in then and jsut avoids taking a hard stance altogether

[Io]

*114

[Io]

Sorry I’m on mobile.
Got a bit confused. And put the wrong number for whatever reason.

[Io]

Because I was talking about gamma.
Weird how one person can have multiple scum-leans.

[Io]

Though I could have worded that better to make that clear.
I was just answering CT’s question.

[Io]

Annnnnd that was the post I thought you meant anyway. Try harder.

This was meant to tell you to actually defend your point, not get flustered about referencing the wrong post.

Well I was going to say I didn’t think there was anything wrong with my point.
But I just looked at 114 again and realized you were talking about 2 different people there.
I thought the whole thing was about Mala.
So you just think its SvS?

[Io]

Alright, I think I'm sufficiently confused and misread literally everything gamma's said thus far.
Carry on, your not on the scum list anymore.

[Io]

No, why would I scum read someone voting for scum. Scum never vote for their allies.

[Io]

What do you mean by that Io? You said in 130 that you thought Lapsa was scum because they might be bussing Mala. That doesn't indicate you believe scum never vote for their allies.

I've noticed something.

It seems whenever I try to make jokes, people take them seriously no matter how obviously contradictory the statement is.

Perhaps I should just stop with that.

[Io]

Actually you triple posted.

[Io]

Why not just read everything? It's 8 pages.

[Io]

I’m impressed

[Io]

I don't like your latest post dave. Given that one of Saudade's stated reasons for voting me was because I alienated myself from other players, it seems obvious he thinks I'm scummy because of that. Also, the other question is one that depends on someone's opinion and that varies with no correct answer, I don't understand how that adds to the game or could change your opinion of a player.

I don't see how asking for clarity is a problem, but you did bring up something i don't think you intended too but I think it pretty important of a point.
He's asking a lot of questions that really have no meaning or impact. As in he's asking questions for the sake of asking questions and not really getting anything from them. That's one of the reasons I found your post 36 a bit scummy.
I just went back through his ISO and noticed close to 75% of his posts are just asking questions.
Some are fine like his 3rd post, but a lot of the questions are just asking people to play more (posts 55-57 for example), and he also asks others for their opinions without really providing much himself (207, 222, and 111).

[Io]

Really? I personally feel like asking questions is a scum tell.
The way I look at is that as a townie you shouldn't be the one going around asking everyone if they want to push a player.
You should be the one taking initiave and pushing the player yourself. There is no point in asking "What do you think about Lapsa's apparent need to sheep?" when you can just make a case yourself and point out all the posts he made trying to sheep.
Asking other people to push reads and make cases for you is stupid as a townie because all you're doing it giving up any potential town cred you would have gained from pushing a scum and allowing another person who you do not personally know the alignment of to take the town cred away from you. As a townie you're job isn't just to find scum but to also convince the rest of the town you are one of them. Obviously you're not doing it in a deceptive way like scum do, but you shouldn't be playing so passively that allows scum to take up town cred that you yourself could have.
Basically I find the play style selfdisruptive and counterproductive from a townie.

[Io]

Maybe actually give a reason than a naked vote or give some type of reads and maybe I wouldn’t be less likely to unvote someone someone. If Both you and lapsa play this game this way the whole time I’ll ask if there’s a vig to put you both out of misery because if you are both town then you’ll be liabilities throughput the game

Yeah, why policy lynch when you can policy waste your bullets.

[Io]

Anyways, lets get some more votes on CT shall we

Why do that when Mala is such an obvious scum?
Like seriously, wanting to policy lynch/vig 2 people just because they are useless ontop of white knighting CT and post 186 is basically just saying "oh don't vote me because that's what all the people do" which ins't a valid reason to not be voted and just is dodging the whole scum accusation and wagon altogether.

Honestly just lynching Mala and when they flip scum lynching CT is the best option.

[Io]

Alright let's take a look at potential connections and you'll see why lynching Mala is the superior option.

Mala is being scum read by Lapsa and Nosfu while also scum reading Nosfu back and wnating Lapsa viged.
So here are Mala's possible connections.

Spoiler: Mala-connections

Mala

- It's likely that at least one of Lapsa & Nosfu are red and potentially both

Mala

- It's very likely both Nosfu and Lapsa are town with Nosfu pushing Mala early in the game followed by Mala wanting Nosfu lynched. There is also the fact most of the time scum don't want their partners to be shot at night, but rather lynched so they could bus them, but Mala-Lapsa isn't 100% clear just very very unlikely.

Going from there I took a look into Nosfu.

Spoiler: Nosfu-connections

Nosfu

- With how little he's being pushed except by Mala's wimpy half push there's few connections here other than a possible Mala scum.

Nosfu

- There's a good chance of Lapsa-Nosfu here and that would in tern mean that Mala is town.

Spoiler: Lapsa-connections

Lapsa

- Nothing other than possibly CT and Mala being scum for pushing him and Nosfu could be town for defending him from the pushes.

Lapsa

- Nosfu-Lapsa is very likely here as Nosfu was defending him from the scum accusations, but he only went so far as to call him Null which could easily be scum trying to say that he isn't actually town reading him, but debunking scum accsations against his partner. Of course with him being scum Mala would also be town by extension.

I'll do CT too as they could also give good connections based on what the others flip.

Spoiler: CT-connections

CT

- CT-town really doesn't mean anything. It could mean that Saudade is scum pushing CT, but that's about the only real possible conection for a town CT. This is one of the reasons lynching him would be bad as if he flipped town we literally learned nothing.

CT

- Scum CT on the other hand tells us a lot as it makes Lapsa likely town and Mala likely scum. I still think it's better to lynch Mala and then lynch him if she flipped scum though.

I defiantly believe that Mala has by far the best chance of giving good connections and clearing/incriminating other people.
Mala flipping town really makes Lapsa-Nosfu look scum and Mala flipping scum basically clears Nosfu and Lapsa while making CT a very likely scum.
Either way you look at it lynching Mala solves a third of the game.
If not Mala, Lapsa also gives very good potential conections as him flipping town or scum tells us some good stuff.

Simply put actually paying attention to what people think about others and watching their votes and actions towards them can tell you a lot.
There's a very nice web of both town and scum connections around that group of 4 and lynching the center of the web can reveal a lot of good stuff.
And yeah, Mala is defiantly better than CT because both are likely scum in my opinion, but Mala actually gives us information if she was town and if she was scum whereas CT gives us basically nothing.

[Io]

I engaged in intense tinfoil hatting and put on my monocle to search every crack in the thread.

[Io]

And my head's never clear.
Like, just read any game I've done. My mind wonders everywhere, but I just follow wherever it goes until it leads me to scum.

[Io]

Either way you look at it lynching Mala solves a third of the game.

what the fuck lmaooo
UNVOTE: mala
VOTE: io

PEDIT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO POST THIS GODDAMN VOTE FOR THE PAST 3 MINUTES

I thought we were of the same mind.
I guess you are not on my level after all.
A shame. I thought someone would understand the ramblings of a madwoman.

[Io]

I put a lot of effort into that theory web.
You all suck.

[Io]

Let's just say that pre-flip associations and information lynches aren't the best place to start.

Why not?
It’s the same doing it before as it is after the lynch.
Just before you have a coin flip of town-scum, but we know half the game either way what Mala is.

[Io]

the garbo ones too

io u got like a nice little readlist with zero explanations that you can just pump out real quick

+2 {Purr}
+1 {Sau, gamma}
0 {Lapsa, tic}
-1 {Nosfu, Dave}
-2 {Mala,CT}
Everyone else is non-existent in game.

[Io]

No I want Mala dead so I can know what Nosfu’s alignment is.

[Io]

No I want Mala dead so I can know what Nosfu’s alignment is.

That's not how we do things around here

That's how I do things.

[Io]

+2 {Purr}

where did this 1 come from

You're good.
Plus you're like the only person not doing anything scummy at all.
Therefore you're the only really townie person.

Actually though gamma is looking like he may be +2 as well.
Also Nosfu's town again because 345 is actually pretty good to the point I don't see scum actually posting that.
All the more reason to kill Mala, she's the only one purely scummy.

[Io]

Well the Nosfu read was from early in the day, I've just been watching him closely and flipping a lot on what I think about his.
About half his posts ping me as scum, but then the other half are just townslips.

[Io]

Well the Nosfu read was from early in the day, I've just been watching him closely and flipping a lot on what I think about his.
About half his posts ping me as scum, but then the other half are just townslips.

explain?
Also I'm thinking about changing my avatar but your current avatar is putting that to a bit of a halt
I'll probably change it today anyway, but it hurts

I didn't actually see your avatar before I changed mine.

Also I don't like when people ask questions without reading literally 2 posts up.
It's rather annoying and I'm not going to waste my time just quoting my own posts I already made about Nosfu.

[Io]

Honestly gamma if you jsut look at each post in isolation from everything else you’ll never understand anything.
Yeah saying someone is town isn’t a something only town do, but scum also don’t just point out something everyone overlooked that would make someone look far towneir unless they are partners, but there’s no way to really tell if they are or not.
But there’s also their Mala push earlier today.
But like I said their white knight of Lapsa is weird and usually scum do it and their vote on me without any reason at all and openly saying they were waiting for an excuse to vote for me is scummy.
You see why I say Nasfubis hard to read? Half his posts scream scum and the other scream town.

he’s basically either a good scum player or a VI.
Mala lynch will tell me all I need to know though. As he cannot be scum with her and he cannot be town if she is.
It’s very clearly TVS

[Io]

You cut out the village idiot half

[Io]

Explain to me how I’m WK’ing CT?

That’s pretty obvious.
You said he couldn’t be scum because Lapsa and Popi voted him.

[Io]

Pretty sure that’s the definition of WK.

[Io]

Pretty sure that’s the definition of WK.

Wait, realization.
I’m an idiot.

[Io]

Pretty sure that’s the definition of WK.

i guess you've never seen twitch mods for irl streamers

I can’t even be mad at that.

[Io]

I’ll consider a Serial killer only after there’s two kills a night.

[Io]

Where did the Scioness accusations come from all of a sudden? I've hardly noticed them today.

[Io]

You confuse me Nos.
I feel like every time I look at you, you contradict what I already thought about you.

[Io]

I dunno, I’m inclined to think Scioness isn’t scum atm just because of how little resistance their wagon has right now.
Like it went from no one saying anything to everyone agreeing they aren’t doing anything and a good lynch.

[Io]

Well and tictac just said they think they are scum.
And everyone else hasn’t commented.

[Io]

Stfu. I know. I literally read it, then read the next 3 pages and forget.
I’ll get on it now that you reminded me again.

[Io]

Anyways, lets get some more votes on CT shall we

Why do that when Mala is such an obvious scum?
Like seriously, wanting to policy lynch/vig 2 people just because they are useless ontop of white knighting CT and post 186 is basically just saying "oh don't vote me because that's what all the people do" which ins't a valid reason to not be voted and just is dodging the whole scum accusation and wagon altogether.

Honestly just lynching Mala and when they flip scum lynching CT is the best option.

I never once said I wanted to policy lynch. So let’s not put words in my mouth. Depending on the person who holds a vig that’s how they play the vig, get rid of the VI so they don’t get mislynched in LYlO situations.

This whole post now that I’m reading it without being rushed is putting words in a moth and twisting to suit your view rather than reality

I consider a policy vig the same as policy lynch.
And you did say to shoot then for just being VI.

[Io]

I literally have the attention span of a goldfish.

[Io]

Hold on. I’m still on mobile I can actually better do it on a computer so I can use two tabs.

[Io]

If I started to defend Nosf while scum reading then that’s a WK, which is one of the reasons why on my last micro game I was scum reading Umulat later on and connected him to Saudade which was wrong. Just saying. I never once ‘stopped’ nosf lynch.

I'm pretty sure that's not what white knighting is, but then again I didn't really see any comprehensive list of terms anywhere.
I'd consider white knighting more of jumping in to defend a player without any real precedent or reason. Such as jumping in to defend a small push on someone you are Null reading.
Jumping to defend a player you are scum reading is...I'm not even really sure there's a term for that because literally no one would do that as it's a fairly stupid play no matter your alignment.

And fair enough, you didn't stop a nosf lynch, but I'm really just trying to say you were trying to prevent a lynch. Or more accurate you suddenly backed off of someone you were wanting lynched for a very very weak reason.
Yeah, WK was probably not the right term, but I couldn't think of something more accurate.

[Io]

Yeah uh 546 is completely taken out of context there.
He was saying Popo’s suddne vote change was suspicions not that he’s trying to make people unvote him.
If anything it was a complaint that he unvoted.

Wow phone autocorrected unvoted into like 5~6 different words/phrases

[Io]

I would just ignore him gamma.
It’s obvious he’s doing it on purpose to push your buttons.

[Io]

I’d prefer Mala, Ct, Lapsa
Also wouldn’t be opposed to a Hugo, popo, Dave, or Scion lynch as I don’t have any hard reads on them.
Absolutely not lynching Gamma, Tictac, akarin, saudade, nosfu, or purr though.

That being said I’ll go vote for Lapsa until I’m convinced lynching out of Mala, CT, Lapsa is a better option.

VOTE: Lapsa

[Io]

Oh god I don't really want to read gammaxlapsa but I guess i have to.

Honestly nothing came from it.
It was basically just Lapsa pushing gamma’s buttons to the point of insanity.

[Io]

The only town-motivated reason I can think of for Popo acting this way when he can play better is if he wants to test people's reactions and see who pushes him. However, that is unlikely since I think he would have done something with this gambit by now and wouldn't have risked making himself so suspicious that nobody would trust what he says, potentially getting himself lynched anyway.

Style of posting has nothing to do with alignment.
Yes, some posting styles are objectively bad and hurt you as town such as lurking and shitposting.
But people still do those reguardless of alignment.

[Io]

Honestly someone doesn't need to write a new thesis as to why they are scum reading you every few days that pass.
Really you only need to explain when you change it or at least address the counter points made.

[Io]

I think Saudade.exe crashed.

[Io]

Look, there is a very specific reason I don't want CT lynched today.
Yes, he is scummy, but he is far from the optimal lynch.

[Io]

I wouldn't really call that changing the argument, just adding another piece of evidence. Again you don't need to restate all the reasons you suspect someone every time you change anything.
Changing it would be saying something like "you know what i think I was wrong about him alienating himself and not taking stances"

Honestly, the alienation claim makes sense. Early on you were distancing yourself from the others by in the middle of RVSing saying that you were new and wanted to know what a good way of scum hunting and looking for town is.
It's not strong of an argument, but the reason is valid to point out I think. Scum, after all, know they are not town and thus may accidentally alienate themselves subconsciously not treating themselves as confirmed town which all town will do as they know they are town.
You also tend to ask more questions than give reads yourself which is both alienation and not taking stances. Not taking stances is a less valid argument in my opinion though as you do actually post reads, but your reads are noticeably limited (except in 398, but he made that argument a while ago before that post) and actually quite a bit delayed in my opinion. 243 for example was quite a delayed vote in comparison to the posts you were quoting for your vote. It looks like you waited for others input on Lapsa before pushing him yourself. It's a reactionary tactic that scum tend to do.

I don't really remember Sudade before, this is my first game since I last played back in my first year of college. (about a year ago, I think I left Jan-March this year) So, no I don't know if this is his style of play, but I do just give people the benifit of the doubt that they are posting their normal way as I don't really like meta arguments. Mostly since, I myself purposely manipulate my meta so that I don't change how I play from town and scum (aside from obviously who I am trying to lynch).

[Io]

I think CT is changing stances under pressure. Thoughts on that?

Huh? Where? I didn't see that.

I guess it is a change. I would honestly much prefer Mala over anybody else, and that is by a fairly large margin.
Most of my other scum reads are just people I'm fine with lynching if no one else wants Mala dead.
Actually, thinking about it probably not. I'm actually fine with him being lynched.

[Io]

oh snap...

I like both:

#772 and #773

who's gonna chicken out?

What does that actually mean?

[Io]

Io, why did you explain Saudade's reasons for voting me instead of letting him do it?

He already did explain hisread.
I just went further and pointed out to you some specific examples where you exhibited what he accused you of because I didn't feel like Saudade would go through with linking to the examples based on how their posts have been short and to the point thus far. Plus I don't entirely disagree with the accusations, just the first one isn't very strong in my opinion and the second point was outdated.

[Io]

hah...

Io didn't even bother addressing daev

I bet she's on mobile phone. singular tab problems

What?
I both addressed him, linked posts, and it was fairly large of a post.
I'm pretty obviously not on mobile if I did all that.

[Io]

I just realized I said both and posted 3 things. RIP.

[Io]

GE, why do you think that Io's error is something that looks scummy?

Because it looks like she revised her post but didn’t fix the comma situation. Scum are more self-conscious so they’d be more likely to revise a post. As such revision-generated errors can occur

Damn...I need to rethink how I play town then. I don't like making many grammatical errors.

[Io]

I've switched off a while ago.
Mod just hasn't updated VC in a while.

[Io]

Well I supposed to be fair I did switch votes shortly after the last vote count.

[Io]

@Sau Lapsa.

GE, why do you think that Io's error is something that looks scummy?

Because it looks like she revised her post but didn’t fix the comma situation. Scum are more self-conscious so they’d be more likely to revise a post. As such revision-generated errors can occur

Damn...I need to rethink how I play town then. I don't like making many grammatical errors.

I mean dividing posts as in changing what they’re saying, not English-class revisions

I generally just write as I go.
also that posts was like 4 lines, diving is a rather extreme word to use for trying to say that I went back and added a 3rd thing and forgot to change a word to reflect the new count.
I honestly don't even remember the whole writing process of that post. It wasn't really an important post though, just pointing out that I wasn't on mobile when Lapsa said I probably was.

[Io]

GE, why do you think that Io's error is something that looks scummy?

Because it looks like she revised her post but didn’t fix the comma situation. Scum are more self-conscious so they’d be more likely to revise a post. As such revision-generated errors can occur

Ios post has fucked-up post-tags, so it's drafted in PM-mode. Most def self-concious.
Then again, it probs means she does't have a PT to draft things in.

I could make a cool df-joke if I voted CT rn..
Maybe that's not quite enough reason. Gonna sleep on it.

Oh, RIP. I didn't even notice they just linked to post 0.
I don't even know why really. I thought I grabbed the right number from the top.

[Io]

There's also no reason to draft anything in a PM really, unless you're that worried about accidentally hitting enter.
plus post can link to other threads, so even if it was drafted in a PM it would still work.

Also I jsut figured out why they didn't work. Apparently it defaults the link to post 0 if you don't put in the # after "post=".

[Io]

I wouldn't really call that changing the argument, just adding another piece of evidence. Again you don't need to restate all the reasons you suspect someone every time you change anything.
Changing it would be saying something like "you know what i think I was wrong about him alienating himself and not taking stances"

Honestly, the alienation claim makes sense. Early on you were distancing yourself from the others by in the middle of RVSing saying that you were new and wanted to know what a good way of scum hunting and looking for town is.
It's not strong of an argument, but the reason is valid to point out I think. Scum, after all, know they are not town and thus may accidentally alienate themselves subconsciously not treating themselves as confirmed town which all town will do as they know they are town.
You also tend to ask more questions than give reads yourself which is both alienation and not taking stances. Not taking stances is a less valid argument in my opinion though as you do actually post reads, but your reads are noticeably limited (except in 398, but he made that argument a while ago before that post) and actually quite a bit delayed in my opinion. 243 for example was quite a delayed vote in comparison to the posts you were quoting for your vote. It looks like you waited for others input on Lapsa before pushing him yourself. It's a reactionary tactic that scum tend to do.

I don't really remember Sudade before, this is my first game since I last played back in my first year of college. (about a year ago, I think I left Jan-March this year) So, no I don't know if this is his style of play, but I do just give people the benifit of the doubt that they are posting their normal way as I don't really like meta arguments. Mostly since, I myself purposely manipulate my meta so that I don't change how I play from town and scum (aside from obviously who I am trying to lynch).

There I put in the actual quotes.
I'm also extremely dyslexic apparently as both those are not the right number I wanted to quote and I did that same mistake before.

[Io]

So it does. I've just been manually putting in the links on the post.
Which I honestly probably should do simply because I apparently can't do proper numbers when referring to post numbers.

[Io]

I don't think I will get the lynch I want to day

I already came to that realization a while ago.
Sadly, it's just the two of us who can see the light.

[Io]

VOTE: Performer

I feel slightly better of this than dave at the moment.
All the other wagons are also just not going to ever go anywhere and we have only 4 days left or we no lynch.

[Io]

Actually no,

VOTE: davesaz

[Io]

I am new to forum mafia, this is my third game in this format.

I'd still like other people to reply to my 875 though, I think the players in this game have been strangely silent when it concerns him.

Performer, why is Umlaut replacing out because he didn't have time towny? Any player could become busy enough that they can't post, regardless of allignment. Also, do you think that Scioness wasn't coasting since you put it in quotation marks? If you believe she was accused unfairly, then why is Nos voting her because of that towny?

You know, this is one of the reasons I still don't trust you.
Like, something about people constantly bringing up that they are new just comes off as suspicious as the only thing I end up thinking is "why would they say that?" and usually it comes down to the player trying to make an excuse for bad play. Yeah, not everyone is super experienced, but 3 games isn't nothing and you have experience with Mafia outside of this format (and this is probably the easiest format outside of browser-game Mafia's like Salem and EpicMafia) so it doesn't really make sense why you would constantly be bringing up that you are new to this when you don't really fit the category of new and the excuse in general is just kind of scummy.

[Io]

Oh sorry I didn't see it was a response post.

[Io]

this is l2 right?

Unless I can't count it's L-2.
Akarin, Popo, gramr, Io, Nosfu, Hugo
and it's 8 to lynch.

[Io]

Garmr sheeped onto a wagon where none of the votes were well founded. It’s opportunistic.

Akarin's vote was unfounded? I don't see how this is unfounded. They explained their reason pretty clearly.

My reasoning on Davesaz:

Really thought I was going to get more flak from someone over that naked vote by the way.

post 111 kind of sets up a Lapsa read, gets some agreement from Io, then votes in post 136 based on another kind of minor post, saying it "deserves a push."

Then basically doesn't look too hard for scum in anyone else and more and more solid on Lapsa based on... what exactly?

In post 226 he says he's "looking for thought process" in Saudade but doesn't seem to have put any effort in looking at Lapsa's thought process.

I have asserted that Lapsa is looking for excuses to sheep, and doing nothing proactive.

Like, sure, Lapsa is sheeping, but he's not sheeping every vote. And not much in the way of excuses either.

Lapsa is scum. Why don't you see that? An answer would be appreciated.

Not town == scum.
Show me town in Lapsa and I'll consider going somewhere else.

Not solving -> scum. It's really an easy thing, don't see why we don't just lynch it.

And suddenly he's absolutely certain.

Sometimes he talks like he's looking at why bad play might be scum motivated or town motivated like in post 222. (He does come around to a scumread on CT based on a secret scumtell rather than anything he can point to so he can sort of agree with it while letting other people do the pushing.)

But with Lapsa, Dave is convinced he's scum based on sheeping. It feels like a lot of these are him doing what I assume must be his usual playstyle, but he's throwing that attitude out when it comes to Lapsa for some reason. Lapsa is "easy" indeed and Davesaz really wants to push that hard for some reason.

It's like he has one default approach for talking about the game, and a different approach when it comes to the wagon he's pushing here.

You know who isn't solving the game? Dave.

[Io]

So in 718 you commented that you couldn't see dave!scum and Lapsa!scum in response to 512.
If you think dave is scum for dismissing 512 what is your current thoughts on Lapsa then?

[Io]

Unfounded doesn't mean incorrect or wrong just that it is not based on anything.

[Io]

Alright, so here's what I'm going to do.

UNVOTE:

If anyone wishes to counter claim with Vigilante then do so pretty soon.
From what I can tell there is never any Large games with more than 1 Vigilante and it'd be a bit on the risky side for an SK or Mafia to claim Vigilante without knowing if one was in the game.

[Io]

I mean even still I haven't seen a Large game with 2 Vigilantes even if they had a modifier.
Baring JOATs of course, but that's a JOAT and not a Vigilante.

[Io]

Wouldn't Vigilante need to live to day 2 to back up they are a Vigilante?

Also I did find a few games, but it was just an Even/Odd pair of Vigs and another with just a 1-shot vig alongside the regular Vig.
But it is probably safe to assume if there is 2 vig claims given this is a 15 player game one is probably lying.

And if he is actually risking claiming Vigilante then it should reflect in the night kill count as if he was Mafia he'd need to claim his factional kill.
Only a Serial Killer could really fake a Vigilante, but there's still only a matter of time before they are realized to be a Serial Killer likely by the game not ending with the death of the last mafioso.

[Io]

No, yeah I'm aware Roleblocker is always a possibility, but Watcher and Tracker are also still a possibility. Ultimately if Mafia has a Roleblocker they have to target you in order to frame you.
A Watcher or Tracker or even a Voyeur would basically out the Mafia's plan if they tried roleblocking you. Not only that if there is a Cop of any kind they could check you which would also put a stop to a Mafia Roleblocker's plans.
Basically, there's a lot of stuff that could very easily stop a Mafia Roleblocker or catch them in the action to the point that the Mafia, if they had one, would need to risk their Roleblocker just for a chance of a mislynch on you.

Honestly, word semantics don't mean anything. It was pretty clear what he was meaning to say even if he used the wrong word to convey it.

[Io]

funny how all the people that voted dave are not surprised in the slightest that he's not scum/PR claim

Nothing phases me anymore.
I’ve gotten used to my scummiest read flipping Doc or something.

[Io]

I mean. Town don’t want to get shot by vig either...

[Io]

VOTE: CT

I'm probably just going to vote CT or Mala.

[Io]

VOTE: mala

I’m liking where this is going now.
I may also just crash today I kind of stayed up all night and got 3 hours worth of classes today.

[Io]

I will fucking laugh my ass off if that was a wrong chat post.

[Io]

I guess you could say you’re a garmr niza.

[Io]

Garmr’s a werewolf confirmed.
Lynch em.

[Io]

Cat’s are far superior and only a werewolf would vote for dogs

[Io]

I’ll call a trace for now as we share a common enemy.
But the kitty revolution will come and all wolves will perish.

[Io]

I hate my phone!
Baka!

[Io]

I’ll call a trace for now as we share a common enemy.
But the kitty revolution will come and all wolves will perish.

Change your pic to a dog (or dog girl I don't judge) and you can join me as my pseudo mason.

Despite there being like 2 pictures of the inferior beastkin I have good cropping skills.
Also incredibly stubborn and now have 30+ images of wolf girls on my phone just because I refused to believe there was no image suitable out there.

[Io]

Well say it.

[Io]

I think autocorrect has just decided to smite this thread as a whole.

[Io]

So you’re great realization that life is meaningless and we’ll all die young?

[Io]

Man, I realized that long ago.
This song pretty much sums up everyone who plays Mafia.

Spoiler:

[Io]

Mala's L-3 and Performer is L-4 btw

[Io]

"I don't like how sci kinda side-pushes mala and was absent during the recent CT drama. Kinda thinking those are both mislynches rn."

Who is sci?

The person Performer replaced.

[Io]

It's kind of iffy honestly.
The whole saying that you don't believe a claim isn't too strong of a point for an AI argument.
There's good reason for both town and mafia to want to want to lynch/not lynch any particular claimant.
From a town's perspective pushing someone for being scummy even if they claim a powerful town role like Vigilante is not something is is unreasonable.
Then the mafia can really go either way with it as they can probably safely assume it's just Maifa v Town with how small of a setup it is. If it's not then it'd be an SK and they'd have equally as valid a reason to want to lynch an SK faking Vigilante.
They could just push the Vigilante claim to try and make sure they don't have to worry about getting night killed, or they could just back off knowing that they are town.

See what I mean though?
It's not really a good argument to say someone is scum just for pushing a power role claim.
There's also other factors like a Town Doctor might try and push to lynch someone claiming to be a Town Jailkeeper as a Mafia Roleblocker or something.

[Io]

Alternative opinion

How about we do

[Io]

Clocks ticking. Sub 20 hours.
A vote not for Mala is a vote for a NoLynch.

[Io]

Lapsa just likes to stab a knife in my chest and twist it whenever he can...

[Io]

I don't think anyone's been hammered yet.

[Io]

Yeah, no Mala is L-1.
Lapsa just unvoted Mala and then revoted Mala.

[Io]

Oh both wagons are at L-1. Interesting...
Whose gonna be the turncloak that gets to chose who to hang.

[Io]

Either Popo gets on and hammers one of them or someone's swapping wagons.

[Io]

Oh nevermind I didn't see Popo ninja vote.

[Io]

scum is in {xoxo, akarin}
btw

Well that first one got vigged so...

I'm kinda leaning more towards CT at the moment though.

[Io]

You know what.
I'm stupid and xoxo is supposed to mean ticktactoe.

[Io]

I just start looking through some ISO's again and Akarin's 1162 is pretty weird as was their post calling Dave manipulative for claiming Vig.
Performer v Akarin does feel like TvS though.
I can't really tell which one is scum though since I can't actually get a solid reed on either, the push Akarin was making on Performer just does not feel like it was two scum buddies fighting.
This is mostly since Performer didn't seem to really care if Akarin voted him or not and if scum were going to start bussing then I would have expected Performer to at least try and make it look TvS and not SvS

Performer's fixation on tictac just feels too off for me to call Performer the definite town in this situation.
It just kind of feels like his only reason for voting him is his meta from two years ago and that tictac scum read him at some point.

[Io]

VOTE: Hugo Stiglitz

Oh I thought you were talking about Saude there.
Why is "they" ping you as definate scum exactly?
It's pretty clear Hugo was talking about the very odd vigilante target.

[Io]

yeah I dunno.
I just took it that he thought it was funny Dave shot Popo and maybe laughed because the better vig target would have been Hugo/Gamma, in my opinion.

[Io]

Hugo, what conclusions have you drawn based on the recent flips?

ummm I don't know they just happened. There is a confirmed serial killer correct? I'm surprised dave didn't shoot, I was expecting him to confirm himself. Unless dave shot popo?

the popo flip literally gives no information as far as i know, but dave... :l it makes sense scum would want him dead (claim vig) but why no protect on him?!?! so disappointed

Confirmed Serial Killer?
What?

Are you saying you're a Serial Killer?
Because I've never seen anything about a confirmed Serial Killer.

[Io]

VOTE: Hugo Stiglitz

Oh I thought you were talking about Saude there.
Why is "they" ping you as definate scum exactly?
It's pretty clear Hugo was talking about the very odd vigilante target.

how do you know it was vig? there's just role cards???

Why would an Odd-Night Vigilante not shoot night 1?
Unless they were roleblocked, sure, but Popo hammered the lynch and I can see a Vigilante just reflexively wanting to shoot someone who hammered a townie.
Plus I did just look back and Popo was scum read by Dave.

Actually how the fuck is pox7 a strange vigilante target? He was lurking and being unhelpful.

Because honestly you, Hugo, and Perfromer were the best shots mechanically.
Performer was the counterwagon while you and Hugo voted in the mid-late wagon which is usually where scum hop on the wagon.

Really it doesn't matter who the Vig ended up killing, but yeah I would have shot either you or Hugo last night.

[Io]

@Purrcocet
The reason I held off voting you yesterday despite you appearing scummy was because your survival instinct kicking in could be something else. I thought there may be a off chance you are a town power role. So I wanted to see if you had results day 2 or not.

@hugo scum could of had a strong man or there is no protection role for town.

bummer
rip dave

Confirmed Serial Killer?
What?

Are you saying you're a Serial Killer?
Because I've never seen anything about a confirmed Serial Killer.

pretty sure Gamma said yesterday there's *usually* a serial killer in these setups? not that it's confirmed, but that we would find out if there was two kills or not. i don't know how this website works and if the way people die are revealed. on my homesite it is rarely revealed how people die.

Well as far as I know there's never been a Serial Killer in a Large Normal under 19 players.

[Io]

It's possible, but I'd say its far from confirmed.

[Io]

I really don't care weather or not if Serial Killer is "likely."
All I do know is that Dave didn't vig himself and Popo was in Dave's declared shooting pool.
Therefore I'm going to assume Dave shot him and there's not a Serial Killer for now.

[Io]

Yeah no Io that wasn’t an odd vig shot in the slightest, as I said pox7 wasn’t contributing, that’s textbook what a vig should be shooting
Counterwagons are second best, at best, and wagon placement scumminess is something generally lynched for, not vigged for

I'm just saying there was better hoptions out there.

[Io]

The only think I see odd about Hugo atm is their vote of Purr followed immediately* by voting Mala saying they agreed with Purr. But they voted for Mala which was the opposite wagon than Purr was voting on. It's just really odd and inconstant with his words and actions not matching.
*immediatly being a hundred or so post gap, but their very next ISO post.

[Io]

So why is Dave in your lynchpool Garmr?
Also you were scum reading Dave day 1 for "picking on" lapsa and Popo for easy mislynches.

[Io]

I'm actually very suspicious that you just slipped not knowing that Dave was killed last night.
Like, it's so odd that I don't feel like anyone would actually not realize someone was killed last night.
Like it's Mafia trying to fake a town slip that they didn't know who the Mafia killed.

[Io]

BRUHHH

You’re lying to yourselves if you think for a second pox7’s play was in any way towny or beneficial to town
Nos I challenge you to tell how exactly pox7 was “towny”

You are unable to differentiate between trolling town and scum

that's ok

but don't say im being weird for your inability to read a slot.

I still love this guy.

[Io]

Oh I didn't even noticed you posted earlier today.
Alright, you're just bizarre, got it.

[Io]

I don’t see how that’s AtE at all.

[Io]

VOTE: Hugo
-didn't get voted at all day 1 which is weird 4 a nullslot.
-all the SK spec

Note: Edited to remove non-relevant parts of the quote that I am not responding to

I mean as far as I've seen Nosfu is basically universally null read and not pushed and you don't seem to have a problem with him.
The SK speculation is honestly Null, like he'd need to be a Serial Killer to make "speculation about SK" a valid point and I just don't really expect SK to be in this game given the trends in setup.
Also it was Gamma who brought up the SK stuff which confused Hugo into thinking SK was not only normal, but to be expected. It honestly makes sense why he would be fixated on a possible SK.

[Io]

yes

@Io tictac already explained

pls don't step on open questions Io.

and missing that felt very artificial

Thanks, you're only 1300 posts late with that answer.

[Io]

I would just like more people to be like Purr.
Just act townie that way I don't have to scum read everyone but one person.

[Io]

I just start looking through some ISO's again and Akarin's 1162 is pretty weird as was their post calling Dave manipulative for claiming Vig.
Performer v Akarin does feel like TvS though.
I can't really tell which one is scum though since I can't actually get a solid reed on either, the push Akarin was making on Performer just does not feel like it was two scum buddies fighting.
This is mostly since Performer didn't seem to really care if Akarin voted him or not and if scum were going to start bussing then I would have expected Performer to at least try and make it look TvS and not SvS

Performer's fixation on tictac just feels too off for me to call Performer the definite town in this situation.
It just kind of feels like his only reason for voting him is his meta from two years ago and that tictac scum read him at some point.

I wasn't calling Dave manipulative for claiming vig, as we've gone over a couple times I didn't know Dave claimed vig at the time, thought he was scum for what

still

reads as a very manipulative post by Dave against Performer to me, the quote about Sci without the context.

Which I think was pretty clear in the context of that, but maybe

not

clear in the context of my ISO.
--

The logic here is weird, like looking through my ISO with a conclusion already in mind. And all this stuff about how Performer and I look like SvS but not really. Not voting for me but planting that thought.

And the way Performer is suspected but no commitment to a scumread, but no defense either.

If Performer flips scum, Io seems like a likely buddy.

Ok, I didn’t see that.

[Io]

VOTE: CT

I don't like most of the people on Per's wagon.
I do like saude.
I don't like CT.
Therefore, I'm following my gut with CT.

[Io]

Io, what do you like about Saudade? I thought that Purr was your only townread as you stated in 1394?

Yeah, but Saude isn't a scum read of mine. He's more null, but more town leaning than everyone else who is in the Null area.

[Io]

My hands are itching to hammer

What are your thoughts on the wagon?
I don’t like half the people voting for him.

[Io]

reading the situation more as scum cutting their losses since the pressure on ya been high since day 1

I don't feel that way at all. more like scum free riding

this is the player pool I'm most interested in:
garm purr nosf Io

^ there must be scum in between given my unworthy reads

garm lately pings town
nosf is susceptible of being a townbeard

so I'm getting most paranoid of purr and Io

either way - I don't want day to finish so quickly

Oooh a new read no ones done before.
I like it.
Lapsa lock town.

[Io]

either way - I don't want day to finish so quickly

i do

been trying to lynch performer since aang was in the iceberg

That joke was purrfect.



I’m sorry...

[Io]

Oh that's a hammer.

@IO
I may be wrong but I thought someone else scum read you (since all the other names were scum read.) but I couldn't find it because your name is hard to search for and i'm to lazy to read every single page .

I’m prefect in every way.

No way I’d be scum read.

[Io]

That joke was purrfect.



I’m sorry...

your purr pun privileges have been revoked, wolf girl

...

...

...

...

Can I have it back purrty please?

[Io]

*pouts and goes to corner*

[Io]

I jailed Gamma twice for the likelyhood that he would be attacked or be scum preforming the kill since he was being pretty highly town read by a lot of people.

[Io]

Yeah CT was the obvious scum in the group, but only me and scum would vote for him.

[Io]

I kind of want to know if scum figured out who the Traitor wasz

[Io]

I made way to many compromises this game.
I should have just death tunneled CT day 2.

[Io]

It was really fun though. It was a nice first game back.

[Io]

I told you ct was scum
Ya'll should've listened

like with ur constant bussing i thought u were so bad that u couldnt be scum

i gotta get better with that lol

Spoiler: my notes for this game at the end of d1 that informed most of my play

{ct, purrc, gamr, dave}
{popo, saud, mala, xoxo}
{hugo, akarin, lapsa}
{gamma}
{sajj, io}

gamma - will sort himself for the most part
popo - savage af, leave alive for as long as possible
purrc - need to sort but will probably just leave as town while he endgames my dumbass
ct - VI most likely VIVIVIVIVI
Ü - about to get replaced. Noob scum replace out?? nah
io - apparently being townread but doesn't do anything?? probably deep wolf candidate. leave that alone for a few days while she buses scum. let her into town bloc.
saud - VI town
sajj - coasting scum?
mala - seems town from wagon? Leaving vote cause scumreads joined is ++

Yeah, that’s just me.
I’m sooner killed by a rival mafia than scum read.
I’m just a natural innocent child people feel hesitant to scum read.

[Io]

No I wanted all the kitty avis in this game dead. Lesson learned people with Cat Avis must be lynched. The final solution to the kitten avi problem all hail the dog god and the superior canine race.

u missed the part where we murdered you all

next time i will not spare ur life

and next time io maybe could should join the WINNING team

I'll be completely honest.

I only did it because I really thought gramr might have been legitimately softing either Neighbor or Mason.

[Io]

I like how Purr was the mafioso desperately trying to defend me from the Mafia kills.

[Io]

You guys took this town from us therefore i have the right to haunt it.
Oooooooh!