Open 735: Watchmen Wanted - Game Over!

Flicker
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Post Post #1450  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:32 pm

Votecount 2.24

Eragon (4) - Irrelephant11 , Keyser Söze , the worst , Dunnstral
Dunnstral (3) - northsidegal , Eragon , Toranaga
Ausuka (1) - Reundo

Not voting: Nauci , Ausuka

The deadline for Day 2 is 2:17 pm CT on Thursday, September 20, in (expired on 2018-09-20 15:17:24).

Mod notes
    - The worst is V/LA until September 17th.
    - Nauci is V/LA until September 18.
Last edited by Flicker on Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Eragon
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Post Post #1451  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:32 pm

In post 1445, Toranaga wrote:
In post 1431, Eragon wrote:
In post 1428, Toranaga wrote:VOTE: eragon


why do you SR me?

I'm starting to think NSG and ausuka are actually town, and my POE has been those two + you and dunn for a while. I think if you were town you'd be a lot townier than you've been, from that one game we played together. I'm scumreading some small things. I think dunn gets lynched tomorrow regardless of your flip.


understandable.

I still dont get why you people are turning a completely blind eye on Keyser, but I can agree with you on most of the rest.

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Post Post #1452  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:33 pm

In post 1450, Flicker wrote:vc

sadness

In post 1447, Toranaga wrote:
In post 1435, Eragon wrote:
In post 1426, Toranaga wrote:would NSG pick on a scum partner's posting style the way she did with kop?


:think:

you think I would be buddies with NSG


nah, I think if you flip scum that likely clears her even


Oh I get it, you said that NSG wouldn't pick on Kop IF they WERE buddies.

kk

Eragon
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Post Post #1453  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:35 pm

Do you know what's worth fighting for
When it's not worth dying for?
Does it take your breath away
And you feel yourself suffocating?
Does the pain weigh out the pride?
And you look for a place to hide?
Did someone break your heart inside?
You're in ruins

One, twenty one guns
Lay down your arms
Give up the fight
One, twenty one guns
Throw up your arms into the sky,
You and I

When you're at the end of the road
And you lost all sense of control
And your thoughts have taken their toll
When your mind breaks the spirit of your soul
Your faith walks on broken glass
And the hangover doesn't pass
Nothing's ever built to last
You're in ruins

the worst
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Post Post #1454  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:41 pm

c'mon stick with American idiot :>

Eragon
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Post Post #1455  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:42 pm

Image

I need a fluffy ducky huggy 0.0

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Post Post #1456  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:42 pm

In post 1454, the worst wrote:c'mon stick with American idiot :>


too pumped up for my current depression

:cry:

the worst
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Post Post #1457  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:46 pm

I will have one of our cuddle division units dispatched

Eragon
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Post Post #1458  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:50 pm

In post 1457, the worst wrote:I will have one of our cuddle division units dispatched


Image

Nauci
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Post Post #1459  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:23 pm

Apologies for my absence; reading up now.

This game took an interesting turn of events. I see the tryhards have properly come out to play and I'll have a lot to read :o I was still working on reading toranga/keyser past games waahhh

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Post Post #1460  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:11 am

I haven't caught up on this thread, but re-revewing Keyser's American Presidents posts, I just feel there's a massive contrast in his POV/attitude/behavior/etc.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=76627&user_select%5B%5D=25845

In American Presidents, he:

  • Called out and questioned everything he thought could be conceived as attempts to pocket him, even if in jest
  • Spent waaaay more of his posts actively prodding others and sorting
  • Had a more carefree attitude even in the posts where he did defend himself
  • This one is more biased, but I defended Keyser multiple times in that game because I could clearly see what he was thinking in the times he was accused of being scummy, and felt like I agreed with his reads a ton
  • Spent a lot of time just reacting to bits and pieces of the game and writing up reactions to other players' posts in a way that made total sense from the perspective of town trying to figure out the game

This game, I just feel like I saw him be constantly defensive, hyper aware of how others viewed his slot in a way that agitated him, make fewer posts analyzing others, have a lot of reactions and perspectives that felt unnatural to read, and totally didn't comment on the way Volxen defended about him repeatedly and unsubtly, throwing him a town read without much of an explanation for day 1. It felt like he tried to shade the players he would find threatening day 1 like Reundo when there was opportunity/momentum to do so, but once it looked futile he flipped 180 (and something about the way he kept calling him teammate felt so awkward, like intentionally trying to create misleading associations?).

I just can't seem to get rid of this gut feel as I read the game. It's hard to explain some of the reasons I get this gut feeling because I feel like I read players on a more psychological/hard to phrase level (without writing the kinds of essays that I do), but I've always been able to just psychologically jump into the perspectives of some town players so seamlessly that they have to be town. This one feels like the opposite; I just struggle to see why Keyser would react so much to every comment on him, while also dodging responding.

Keyser, why did you feel like you had to wait until I cased you to respond to me, when my catch up posts clearly had tons of instances of comments on your posts that you could have replied to/explained/etc.?

VOTE: Keyser Söze

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Post Post #1461  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:26 am

In post 1175, Keyser Söze wrote:No, you said I ignored all the “content” from the last 5 pages.
What alignment indicative posts / scum cases are you referring to?
You can’t just throw that out there and expect me not to react.
I have been fully engaged in this game thank you.


Do you think Toranaga and Dunnstral are the last two mafia goons?
If so, convince me to return back there.

Toranaga has convinced me 1) he is unlikely mafia and 2) he also convinced me I was a blind idiot for being on Dunnstral’s wagon all of today.


I said I was disappointed with how little you engaged with the content that happened. I thought lots of action had happened with Ausuka and other slots, but your replies were to defend yourself, comment on NSG's joke post instead of her content posts, and a shallow reaction to Dunn's lynchbaity post. Of everything there was to engage with, it was disappointingly shallow.

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Post Post #1462  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:44 am

I'm catching up but man I am so bothered by Keyser misrepresenting my comment to him.

Like I thought maybe I had forgotten I accused him of ignoring the game, but no, it was only like 5 posts before he said that, and my words were:

In post 1170, Nauci wrote:
In post 1166, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 1128, Nauci wrote:[*]@Keyser Why did me scum reading you for the first 8 pages make you want to scum read/re-evaluate my slot? What would be the scum train of thought to do something like

My tone was semi serious: but tbh Sesq on D1 gives me enough reason to not lynch you today.

D2, your slot has been focused on killing townies. I just think you need to re-evaluate the playerlist.


It's disappointing how little you've engaged with all of the content from the last 5+ pages (while asking others to contribute more).


I mean that's a really aggressive and shading way to come at me for asking for sortable content and in depth reactions and engagement (hmm, I dare say, I might call that "scum hunting").

I can't figure out why scum Keyser would say it, but I really can't see why town Keyser would demand that I convince him to return to Toranga/Dunnstral. For one, my biggest scumread at the time (at all times?) has been Keyser, which he knows. Maybe it's an attempt to get me to case them instead of him?

I just don't understand the reasoning for so many of Keyser's posts. The look like effort at a glance, but not any deeper than that.

The only posts where Keyser's effort approached the level of analysis and comfort or even paranoia that
town Keyser had. Even the posts that weren't those walls of effort/analysis spoke to more complex thinking about other players' motivations and thoughts, versus the motivations he confidently attributes to Volxen after his flip.

So I guess, in Keyser's words:

In post 858, Keyser Söze wrote:
In post 819, the worst wrote:don't give me that phoney AtE crap. if you think it's fake tell me why you think it's fake. the fact you're trying to call me out on a personality thing when you don't know me is g r o s s

but also most of the player list just feels totally resigned with my lunch. like if I was revealed as IC where would people even go?

You still sound like you’re in defence-mode, not scum-hunting mode :(

The best defense is a good offense’ - Kevin Spacey

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Post Post #1463  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:49 am

In post 1186, Keyser Söze wrote:@Eragon - why is your vote not on me?
You have just listed many (bad) reasons why you strongly think I am scum.



Btw, I never said I was "god like" - I'm a below-average mafiascum player with still lots to learn. However, my reads have been on point so far this game. If Dunnstral and tora flip town, I'll feel even better about my developing game :giggle:


You're below-average, but your reads have been on point?

But you pushed Reundo, my slot (which I know is town, of course), and e, and pushed volxen a little. How do you make that statement with just 2 flips?

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Post Post #1464  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:49 am

I mean not just that post, but ones repeatedly declaring how good your reads and and demanding that the rest of us re-assess, instead of actually making your cases for why your reads are so strong?

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Post Post #1465  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:12 am

In post 1210, Keyser Söze wrote:This game is about survival.
And Dunnstral’s supposed scum game isn’t helping him survive.
Scum-Dunnstral gets no benefit out of this or his remaining teammate: even if his partner busses, they’d get no town-cred.
It’s tactical suicide.

I believe scum are in my middle ground reads.


I extremely do not understand your case for town Dunnstral. It's pure WIFOM Dunning-Kruger. Unless you can show me that Dunnstral's scum game is amazing, I don't see extreme-WIFOM as a good reason for the read.

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Post Post #1466  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:19 am

Man this is a strange game

Toranga thinks NSG is scum because her scum range can't possibly be so bad that this must be her town posting

Keyser thinks Dunnstral is town because his scum range can't possibly be so bad that this is him scum posting?

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Post Post #1467  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:22 am

I don't know if it's alignment indicative that Eragon has the same psyduck.mp4 reaction to it that I did

Nauci
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Post Post #1468  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:25 am

In post 1233, Eragon wrote:oh my god its so hard to see that.

i dont know what im thinking thinking i can see that.

its almost impossible

/s

but tbh i havent really cased NSG, if they had continued "people pushing me are scum or bad" i woulda hard-pushed them, but they said its a joke so ehhhh
i think tora had a pretty good case overall, but other people are defending too.
thats why NSG is my weakest SR, on top of the fact a Keyser/Dunn Scum team could actually make sense(pre-flip associations. gotta love em good. /s)


wait are you saying you really thought nsg's spoilered rainbow post was serious

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Post Post #1469  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:26 am

In post 1243, Toranaga wrote:
In post 1241, Ausuka wrote:
In post 1098, Eragon wrote:
In post 1063, Ausuka wrote:{Nauci, Irrelephant, Keyser}
{nsg, (will just trust nauci on this particular read since I'm low on towns anyway) dunnstral}
{Eragon, the worst, Toranga}
{reundo}

about here, i'm probably missing something

can you explain how you think reundo is your biggest scum?
can you explain how you think TW, Tora, and I are scummy?
can you explain your Keyser and NSG TR's?

Reundo is my SR due to my view on the gamestate (Mafia are comfortable now and this sort of town isn't the kind to ace a game based on today, bussing is therefore likely), Keyser things, and the fact he has a wide lynchpool of popular suspects that he's stating willingness to chainlynch. I am open to other ideas but dunn/Keyser isn't really one of those ideas, sorry. Although it doesn't matter what I think really.

Tor is an old read that just decayed over time, tw gives me bad vibes, you're kind of not readable for the most part and some things you do ping me vaguely. Like why am I suddenly 4th scummiest when you've been tunneling me this whole day?

NSG read explanation is in my readslist. Keyser feels genuine and I don't really get how he's meant to be scummy.


you're literally only townreading NSG because nauci is, and nauci is only townreading NSG because NSG doesn't post anything when she is scum normally. she hasn't been towny this game and I think nauci is just taking her for granted here. NSG is smart enough to replicate minimally her town meta. this isn't her town game though. this isn't anyone's town game, this is scum.


Okay so

I've repeatedly said

this may not be NSG at her full town power

but it's waaaay outside of scum nsg range

repeatedly telling us (most of us have seen what full power townsg looks like, but also know her scum range) that she can be townier isn't a good argument

a good argument would be linking to a single scum game where she was able to post like this (she's rolled scum a surprising number of times)

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Post Post #1470  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:34 am

In post 1275, Keyser Söze wrote:I do love Reundo’s novella-style reads on players. They feel like a warm blanket that re-assure me.

His work on Volxen D1 was exemplary. For those alone I elected Reundo into my top tier of town reads at the start of D2.

His recent post regarding Dunnstral strengthens my resolve not to hang Dunnstral today.

Reundo also weakens my desire to flip NSG D2 (pointing out their D1 actions surrounding the Sesq counter wagon was not the scum-optimal-play).

Finally, Reundo has re-opened my reluctant suspicion of Ausuka, who jumped off the Volxen wagon, to join the Sesq wagon, then finally rejoining the Volxen wagon. Even though I town-lean the Ausuka slot, those actions are scummy in isolation (in the conventional VCA sense). This is my dilemma


This is the kind of keyser post I was hoping to see make up the bulk of his ISO

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Post Post #1471  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:38 am

WTH is WIM

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Post Post #1472  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:46 am

In post 1460, Nauci wrote:I haven't caught up on this thread, but re-revewing Keyser's American Presidents posts, I just feel there's a massive contrast in his POV/attitude/behavior/etc.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=76627&user_select%5B%5D=25845

In American Presidents, he:

  • Called out and questioned everything he thought could be conceived as attempts to pocket him, even if in jest
  • Spent waaaay more of his posts actively prodding others and sorting
  • Had a more carefree attitude even in the posts where he did defend himself
  • This one is more biased, but I defended Keyser multiple times in that game because I could clearly see what he was thinking in the times he was accused of being scummy, and felt like I agreed with his reads a ton
  • Spent a lot of time just reacting to bits and pieces of the game and writing up reactions to other players' posts in a way that made total sense from the perspective of town trying to figure out the game

This game, I just feel like I saw him be constantly defensive, hyper aware of how others viewed his slot in a way that agitated him, make fewer posts analyzing others, have a lot of reactions and perspectives that felt unnatural to read, and totally didn't comment on the way Volxen defended about him repeatedly and unsubtly, throwing him a town read without much of an explanation for day 1. It felt like he tried to shade the players he would find threatening day 1 like Reundo when there was opportunity/momentum to do so, but once it looked futile he flipped 180 (and something about the way he kept calling him teammate felt so awkward, like intentionally trying to create misleading associations?).

I just can't seem to get rid of this gut feel as I read the game. It's hard to explain some of the reasons I get this gut feeling because I feel like I read players on a more psychological/hard to phrase level (without writing the kinds of essays that I do), but I've always been able to just psychologically jump into the perspectives of some town players so seamlessly that they have to be town. This one feels like the opposite; I just struggle to see why Keyser would react so much to every comment on him, while also dodging responding.

Keyser, why did you feel like you had to wait until I cased you to respond to me, when my catch up posts clearly had tons of instances of comments on your posts that you could have replied to/explained/etc.?

VOTE: Keyser Söze

Nauci, I was waiting for you to look for scum outside of me. Instead of engaging into a one on one before you fully caught up.

FTR: You are investing too much meta analysis into that Presidents game. My town game is not one dimensional. Defensiveness is not alignment indicative. You’ve played with me, but obviously not enough.

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Post Post #1473  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:53 am

In post 1465, Nauci wrote:
In post 1210, Keyser Söze wrote:This game is about survival.
And Dunnstral’s supposed scum game isn’t helping him survive.
Scum-Dunnstral gets no benefit out of this or his remaining teammate: even if his partner busses, they’d get no town-cred.
It’s tactical suicide.

I believe scum are in my middle ground reads.


I extremely do not understand your case for town Dunnstral. It's pure WIFOM Dunning-Kruger. Unless you can show me that Dunnstral's scum game is amazing, I don't see extreme-WIFOM as a good reason for the read.

Ok, if I down grade them to null, as they haven’t done anything objectively pro-town:
I would be interested to see their ‘scum’ flip to:

- look at who they have been distancing
- look at which players have been proposing chain lynches via Dunn
- look at who bussed Dunn, as they’ve had the worst scum game this year
- (I’ve been the only one hard defending him, so no need to look at who was opposing his lynch).

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Post Post #1474  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:03 am

In post 1461, Nauci wrote:
In post 1175, Keyser Söze wrote:No, you said I ignored all the “content” from the last 5 pages.
What alignment indicative posts / scum cases are you referring to?
You can’t just throw that out there and expect me not to react.
I have been fully engaged in this game thank you.


Do you think Toranaga and Dunnstral are the last two mafia goons?
If so, convince me to return back there.

Toranaga has convinced me 1) he is unlikely mafia and 2) he also convinced me I was a blind idiot for being on Dunnstral’s wagon all of today.


I said I was disappointed with how little you engaged with the content that happened. I thought lots of action had happened with Ausuka and other slots, but your replies were to defend yourself, comment on NSG's joke post instead of her content posts, and a shallow reaction to Dunn's lynchbaity post. Of everything there was to engage with, it was disappointingly shallow.

I believe I caught up with everything that was alignment indicative to me Nauci.

You are still to highlight the posts/scum cases which you feel warranted to discuss, or failed to react to.

I feel I have expressed an opinion on nearly every game-related angle that I think has direct impact on MY reads.

If you think my content has been shallow then that is something I will take note as... (but I think my posts have been influential in defending/attacking players).

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