how good is vonflare at laser tag [game over]

[chamber]

Vote: horrordude0215

[chamber]

Requesting that Invisibility spams like 1/10th as much.

[chamber]

Do we know the mechanics of this game? I'm always worried when someone suggests a name claim in a theme.

[chamber]

I think we lynch RC.

[chamber]

It's early in the day so that's subject to change
Scum are going to really not want this to go through because my logic about the setup is accurate and they're going to respect me enough to know that I can find 1 scum in a game like this.
To counter the argument that oh I'm too good as scum to give me control over the lynch: I'm openly telling you to lynch me if I don't get this right D1. Worst case scenario, you take 2 scum.

The actual worst case scenario is that you are just wrong town, and don't pretend like you are incapable of being wrong.

[chamber]

Do you have an example of making an offer like this an then actually letting yourself get lynched when it goes wrong?

[chamber]

that said I'm very strongly considering the possibility that you're scum and that I was generally right on my scumpool and yall are banding together to start discrediting me early in the day phase.

Chamber's reaction is not the reaction of a person who thinks that I'm scum, for the record.

That's kind of bullshit.

[chamber]

What part might be?

[chamber]

The part thats bullshit is the implication that me not being 100% sure you are scum on page 4 is somehow alignment indicative. I didn't even move my vote when I suggested lynching you.

[chamber]

Having an opaque trajectory is my thing when I'm trying.

[chamber]

The game just started. I also don’t know where you get that activity tell considering my activity has never been AI. I’ve been extremely active as scum and hard lurked as Town.

Why are you arguing with me instead of doing other stuff?
When I called you scum in very early fallout you continued to do other stuff and then I was like lol you're right and locktowned you.

This game your primary focus has been arguing with my scumread on you which I would expect you to expect to go away if you did towny stuff.

What was the context in that other game? You've definitely grabbed the most attention, I think to the determent of the game so far. Expecting interactions to not center around you at this point seems quite off on its face.

[chamber]

I only picked names of vests I played in

Saaaame

Same actually

literally said that you guys would say this.

Still a good scumhunting method for the other 11 players.

this post is awful.

[chamber]

I mean my scumread is because of reasons that are independent of what he has chosen to invest his energy into, I just think that if he's town that telling him to fan his approach out will speed up the process of discovering that.

So you were spewing shit at him that he would likely not have a good answer for as either alignment if he acted reactionary?

[chamber]

Vote maru

[chamber]

No, I think that he would have talked about other people if he were town. I also think that talking about that as opposed to going into other details is the most productive way to approach him here.

Have you ever tried telling someone to calm down?

[chamber]

I read it at the time.

[chamber]

Everything you directed at me seemed pretty manufactured. I'd much prefer maru but could see myself moving to you instead.

[chamber]

Also Chamber, where the fuck did you go? If that wasn't partner v partner disappearing why did you completely disappear when someone started supporting your 2nd favorite wagon?

I went for a walk. After intentionally not voting. <3

[chamber]

What are your thoughts on Chickadee's "meta townread" of jiffy?

Seems pretty bad. Your case on him seems pretty junk though? I really think its just maru and you not seeing that is bothering me.

[chamber]

because i'm not voting jiffy anymore and am going back to being honest about my reads?

dunnchan u know how i feel about u

Seems pretty bad. Your case on him seems pretty junk though? I really think its just maru and you not seeing that is bothering me.

mmm

I still think you're scum ftr and the oh chickadee is bad but hey look at this juicy maru wagon doesn't make me feel any better about you.

Bad != scum.

[chamber]

I just don't think you are all that good at reading me? Which is fine. Not too worried.

[chamber]

Work with me a bit on maru RC. Why are you sure this is a bait wagon?

[chamber]

Her team being me and gamma?

[chamber]

I've got some decent town vibes from chick. Not that I base anything on townreads.

[chamber]

magic

[chamber]

Also, Please don't use my name on the forum.

[chamber]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I don't see anything scummy from chickadee.

[chamber]

I'm not defending her. I'm defending my scumread. It's a byproduct. I rarely deal in townreading.

[chamber]

I'd have to look closely to know, they they probaby mixed closing bbcodes that use spans/divs which results in an extra one being inserted.

[chamber]

VOTE: alchemist21

Ok let's wagon this

I liked this wagon before and still think it’s good
VOTE: Alchemist21

I don't really care about the other people voting him, but I think you need to look elsewhere. Thank you.

[chamber]

I'm still trying to get over you not seeing scum!maru.

[chamber]

You guys know not everything needs to be responded to right?

[chamber]

13 pages is way too much for me. My brain is still in Norfolk so i can't try to keep up


someone make a list of any point that I need to address, or anything in particular i *MUST* read, because I am not reading 13 pages. Post that within the next 4-5 posts and I'll respond to it. That's how i'm going to handle this day 1, because I can't deal with being on mandated-hurricane-vacation and the speed of this game simultaneously.

Why have you done nothing while posting. This fits the scum pattern for you that I've seen in your previous games. As town you feel much more proactive.

[chamber]

Counterpoint: what has invisibility said thats worth responding to on any level?

[chamber]

I am.

[chamber]

I think I've made several opinions pretty clear.

[chamber]

VOTE: alchemist21

Ok let's wagon this

I liked this wagon before and still think it’s good
VOTE: Alchemist21

I don't really care about the other people voting him, but I think you need to look elsewhere. Thank you.

Fucking excuse me? What's your damage?

@chamber

explain why you singled me out like this and decided to insult me or I’m blacklisting you after this game is over.

What? I never insulted you. You are my strongest town read so I don't want you on a bad wagon. Everyone else on it could be scum.

[chamber]

This is so bizzare. How does that get interpreted as an insult?

[chamber]

Yeah, I mean that's also a valid interpretation. But I thought Town!Me's intention was pretty clear. To the degree that I was counting it in my obvious opinions. I'm still confused that he took that as a personal attack somehow.

[chamber]

I think I'm also willing to lynch vonflare.

[chamber]

One has to have high aspirations.

[chamber]

I believe I was voting and pushing maru before you had mentioned anything about alch? Was I not. Let me go dig up the timing on that.

[chamber]

Ah nope, you scum read us as a pair real early. You should be a bit more flexible with your reads. Town aren't that bad.

[chamber]

Note that all of [Majiffy chamber mariar alchemist] have gone out of their way to have the most banal, undirected conversations with each other that go absolutely nowhere and have absolutely no weight
go through the fucking game these terrible forced conversations don't just happen they're happening because scum knows that even if they get the maru mislynch they're kind of fucked and need to distance hard
they're doing a piss poor job of distancing, fortunately for us, but everyone particularly Chickadee if you're town needs to start realizing that you're kissing up to scum.

I feel like I've actually just blown off any conversation attempts by those people towards me? Which isn't actually out of character for me as either alignment?

[chamber]

half way there!!!!!!

Ok, this post is really bad. Sorry for not seeing it before alch.

[chamber]

Chamber, what does it take to get your vote over here?

I think its highly likely that I literally never vote for alchemist this game.

[chamber]

I don't think this game speaks to me in any general way about mafia.

[chamber]

I am strongly inclined to agree with that assessment, given that I am more and more convinced that Maruchan is in fact town, just being a PITA. Unfortunate. I'm not sure if you would have enjoyed being town with me, but I guess it's better than this.

From my pov, he's the mislynch you think Maru is. And even if hes ultimately scum, he'll die when some partner of his does. I think strategically it makes no sense to align my vote or interests with you ever in this game.

[chamber]

I don't think this game speaks to me in any general way about mafia.

I think this game is a lot more representative than you would think of the current state of mafia, including in games without me in them.

How do those statements meaningful intersect?

[chamber]

I guess I don't understand the game relevance. I thought you were asking how this game was making me feel(which could certainly be alignment indicative, I hate being faction scum). Not some high level question about the state of mafia. Can't that wait until the game is over? If I had one complaint it's how much I keep having to push back against you because you refuse to cede the floor to anyone else.

[chamber]

Since RC's been enjoying some from the hip guesses, I'm going to be a degenerate too.

Vonflare, Invisibility, RC, Irrelephant, Maruchan

[chamber]

Is that actually that whole wagon? Magical. You are each on their for other reasons.

[chamber]

I think the notion that I'd have put you each on there intentionally as scum is too brazen even for me.

[chamber]

You don't think I knew how the Alchemist line would look? It looked that way is why I said it.

[chamber]

Like go ahead and argue that as scum I subconsciously put you all on it. Hell maybe I even did that as town. But there is no world where scum me intentionally does it. My scum play isn't marred by carelessness but over-caution.

[chamber]

It looking that way*

[chamber]

I think its at 5/8.

[chamber]

Chamber, what does it take to get your vote over here?

I think its highly likely that I literally never vote for alchemist this game.

Why do you think I said this, given that you have no understanding of why I said it?

[chamber]

Why is that something I'd care about stopping you from doing? If I know I'm ever going to surely wasting you energy there is positive for me in a world where I'm scum with alchemist?

[chamber]

So in your mind, Alch is scum, has 6 town on him, and they are still playing the long game?

[chamber]

Setting aside that I know I'm town, surely the scum could find some wagon to support that has town on it. Is it your position that all other potential wagons are scum lead?

[chamber]

They don't need an easy wagon. They do need a wagon. Not putting forward any opposition isn't an option in the scenario you are proposing. Now, I independently find nearly everyone on Alch questionable anyway. But even if I put myself in the position of ignoring that, and assuming alch is scum. My base assumption would be that this wagon on him has 1-2 team mates on it. It lets them control defusing it. Why isn't this something you've seemingly given any consideration towards?

[chamber]

I don't think I've tried to get you to change your focus? I've been trying to figure out if you are just awful this game or scum. Heavily leaning towards the latter. You interacting with me over maru wouldn't require you moving your vote. The only argument you've made this whole game that hasn't been bullshit is an appeal to meta on Alch, and I just don't have the meta knowledge to refute or confirm that, so for all I know its also full of shit.

[chamber]

Imagine for a moment, a world where I'm town. No one is strongly pushing for a counter wagon. No one is strongly opposing the alch wagon. No one has appealed to some voters to get them to move (the only instance i can think of this is me towards gamma). I know this is the world we are in. I just can't imagine alch being scum in such a world. Everyone who reads alch as scum must also read me as scum. And I appeal to any of you who may have a town read on me to reconsider your current vote placement.

[chamber]

Have you considered that I'm not worried about you lynching me because you literally can't?

I'm like the fucking Buddha at this game. Back down.

things that no town says in a setup where it only takes 3 town misvotes to lynch you and I'm already one for 2000, ALEX!
but nice of you to make excuses for why you're not getting lynched in aforementiond setup because your scumbuddies won't bus.

Deedles u have 0 reason to be townreading jiffy and I have lots of good reason to be scumreading jiffy so idk what you want from me here

if you're not scum you should actually engage with my original arguments instead of deciding to defend jiffy for out of games reasons

because if you're town all you are doing right now is defending jiffy for out of games reasons, you aren't playing the game.

As an example of bullshit. You claim to have extensive meta knowledge on jiffy. What does everyone think about when they think of jiffy? Go with the flow, a nod to his flow chart that advocates first always sheeping thor665, and lacking his presence in the game, instead sheeping majiffy. What else do they think of? Jiffy being so belligerent in games that he's been banned for it multiple times. In what world is the expected behaviour for such a player to roll over an accept sheeping someone else? I actually think the default player of any slightly strong willed town is going to be to tell you to go fuck yourself, just as I did. Instead you broadly painted that as scummy. Just all garbage all the way down.

[chamber]

What?
What?

[chamber]

The post above mine.

[chamber]

Did you read the thread? Actual question.

[chamber]

It doesn't. His argument for me being town this game is rooted in my scum game being weak. I think this game isn't outside of my range(as he put it) when in top form, but hes right that I'd likely feel way out of practice if I was mafia. I haven't rolled mafia on the forum in like 3 years.

[chamber]

Vote majiffy

[chamber]

Vote majiffy

While I appreciate this I want to know your reasons for this

Why make this post?

[chamber]

Why do you think that post achieves fulfilling that goal?

[chamber]

I've answered a handful of questions.

[chamber]

Yeah, that's about typical.

[chamber]

Everything you directed at me seemed pretty manufactured. I'd much prefer maru but could see myself moving to you instead.

I would just prefer to interface with you because we play more of an older style which I can tolerate better.

But okay, don't accept my reach out then

Kind of pulls this into question though then doesn't it?

[chamber]

@jiffy I always play like this to some extent. I'm pointing out that I think you were full of shit when you said you expected to find my style more tolerable. I thought it at the time too, but I think this makes it obvious for everyone.

@alch I'm not. Questions that basic are trash. If I had wanted to say why I was voting jiffy, I'd have said why I was voting jiffy.

[chamber]

That seems like a really weak question btw. Do you think there is a scum motivation?

[chamber]

So you were trying to pocket me?

[chamber]

I know the newer players focus way more on town telling and building functional groups or w/e. That's not me. Everyone is scum to differing degrees. That doesn't mean I can't work with people, but the people reaching out to me are not the people I have any desire to work with. I'm waiting on Titus's catchup and for other people to post more.

[chamber]

I'm not going to get into a mafia theory argument.

[chamber]

I know the newer players focus way more on town telling and building functional groups or w/e. That's not me. Everyone is scum to differing degrees. That doesn't mean I can't work with people, but the people reaching out to me are not the people I have any desire to work with. I'm waiting on Titus's catchup and for other people to post more.

Wait... you're expecting me to read?

I have no experience with you replacing in, but it's the base amount I expect from everyone.

[chamber]

@Titus, you seeing the replacement as quickly as you did suggests you were reading the game already? Do you have any thoughts on what you did read?

[chamber]

If you had to vote someone other than jiffy who would it be?
Do you have any issues with Dunn's question there?

[chamber]

Dunn doesn't really scumread me. If because he's faking it as town or is just scum I don't know yet so no not really.

I was more referencing the fact that that was his first post in 2 days.

[chamber]

and try to work out the other 4.

If you are still around, can you elaborate on what you meant here.

[chamber]

I can read it more than 1 way and I'm wondering which she intended.

[chamber]

I actually think saying as much as I did there gives enough away that I can just say.

'look for the other 4... and try to lynch one of them instead'
'look for the other 4... because I don't think pairings with me make sense'

[chamber]

Your turn. What motivation do you attribute to me asking that question if I don't have multiple valid interpretations?

[chamber]

Ok, VOTE: Alchemist21

It's not L-1 then.

This post is pretty odd
Didn't realize it at the time.

[chamber]

Over that specific post? If so what is the odd thing you agree with me about?

[chamber]

Your turn. What motivation do you attribute to me asking that question if I don't have multiple valid interpretations?

You trying to feign ignorance? Why do you think I didn’t have a reason?

Sometimes people are just actually ignorant. I don't understand the trajectory behind your questioning at all. If I thought you had no reason I'd have simply not answered. Now that I've answered I'm asking what it was.

and try to work out the other 4.

If you are still around, can you elaborate on what you meant here.

I was being a bit trolly. I was meaning I'm not scum, so look elsewhere. I guess I just didn't word it very great.


But I do like your way of thinking about pairings making sense or not.

I think the 'other 4' language used by you and jiffy is extremely scummy in this game. Asking people to compromise is how we end up lynching town. No in is going to be 5 for 5 on day 1 (at least not with any consistency).

Over that specific post? If so what is the odd thing you agree with me about?

The pure sadness vote was really really bad.

It's not the vote that bothered me. Is it only the vote that bothered you?

[chamber]

Catching up here soon. Anyone want to tell me what I missed/talk about it?

pedit: hi titus are you scum

chamber didn't answer questions, people are voting majiffy.

You don't have anything else to add?

[chamber]

alch called me scum for voting him in the wagon while i thought he was scum

Your vote on him is easily among the worst votes made this game. Can town not find those voting them suspicious? Nonsense.

[chamber]

Thats my point. This game highly encourages tunneling from the town. You are encouraging a pool type of play with your comment.

[chamber]

I could be convinced to vote for sadness, but I want to see more from them for now.

[chamber]

is sadness a she i think so

wrong.

Anything game relevant you want to talk about?

[chamber]

I'm just not interested in a D1 Chickadee wagon she's got 4 teammates why don't you help me figure them out RC

I think Gamma is one.

Worst post in the game.

[chamber]

Ok, VOTE: Alchemist21

It's not L-1 then.

This post is pretty odd
Didn't realize it at the time.

Why did you care about l-1 here?

[chamber]

So why is chamber town? @anyone townreading him

Puts the burden on the wrong foot I think. Why am I not town?

[chamber]

So why is chamber town? @anyone townreading him

Puts the burden on the wrong foot I think. Why am I not town?

You've talked a lot about not town hunting, and saying everyone is scum to some degree. Now you're asking someone to town read you.

I said the exact opposite.

[chamber]

Like two pages ago you asked Pure Sadness "You don't have anything to add to that?" or something when he summarized what I missed
Instead of just telling me what else I missed

My issue wasn't with the summation, though it wasn't very good I expected everyone to read the game for themselves. My issue was with that being their first post in days.

[chamber]

"You should try and scum read people, not look for town Tells"
"Hey, what are chambers town tells"
"Shouldn't you be looking for scum tells??"
"You are scum for wanting to be auto townread!!"

[chamber]

Asking why someone is town is asking for town tells.
Asking why someone is not town is asking for scum tells.
Are you gaslighting me or illiterate?

[chamber]

Vote chickadee

[chamber]

Asking why someone is town is asking for town tells.
Asking why someone is not town is asking for scum tells.
Are you gaslighting me or illiterate?

True, but it comes off as more of a challenge. "Try and prove I'm not town" implies you think we should be town reading you.

How many players (town or scum) have you run into that openly agree they should be scum read? Maybe a handful over hundrends of games?

[chamber]

majiffy's clearly town based on wagon movement

no.

[chamber]

@chamber then why are you not voting majiffy

It's possible to think someone isn't confirmed town, and also not think they are the best lynch choice. In fact that currently describes everyone that isn't myself and isn't chickadee. What the hell was this question?

[chamber]

Self-meta is bad when you used to affirm a result. Using it to refute one is fine.
Like in this case
"I think you are scum for doing x"
"I do x as town, here is an example"
is fine. It doesn't positively claim anything.

[chamber]

self meta is bad

if you can recognize that you do x thing as town you can intentionally do it as scum and then do this^

Whats your best post this game?

[chamber]

There are too many scum.

[chamber]

Both.

[chamber]

Let's lynch someone and get this game moving.

[chamber]

Yes, I townread Majiffy for having the confidence to put himself forward as the one to make the choice after RC had already done so. Given RC dropped his own wagon at L-1, I feel more confident in Majiffy being the townie genuinely wanting to build an all-town wagon and less confident RC was that townie (regardless of alchemist's alignment)

The wagon at its height was L-2.

[chamber]

him being seemingly intentionally hard to read.

I've seen this raised a couple of times and it's untrue. I've admitted to obfuscating my trajectory, but that's for the sake of keeping scum unaware. I actually think I'm pretty easy to read generally.

[chamber]

Try again.

[chamber]

chickadee okay lynch but I kinda see it might be lyncbait I'm not sure if I want to risk the chance of a life time to win D1

this post is so bad.

[chamber]

using wording that can be taken two ways, and then back tracking when it's taken a certain way.

Everyone does this sometimes unintentionally. On the other hand, the case you tried to make against me for it was completely ridiculous. In no world could that reasonably have been taken 2 ways.

[chamber]

Oh yeah I’m in class.

Gamma is town because last time I read his iso he looked like he believed he was town to a T so I’ma believe that.
Jiffy is scum because the way Chickadee defends Jiffy doesn’t look like scum defending a towny and I was sold on Majiffy scum when I read RC’s ISO and Majiffy’s first few posts (also I don’t like him wagoning gamma)
I think Chamber is scum because I feel like as town he would look for people’s motivations a lot more then what he’s currently doing I cause I feel like he’s doing really little compared to the other time I played with him.

I did a lot of speaking when exactly was still in the game. Now I'm giving the thread some.space for others to do stuff

[chamber]

autocorrect got me exactly->rc.

I also don't understand your response.

[chamber]

I feel like he’s doing really little compared to the other time I played with him.

Responding to this bit. Also assuming you didn't read what happened before you replaced in. I'm claiming I was a lot more active before RC replaced out, but since have been trying to give other people the spot light for a bit.

[chamber]

Did you look at everything in context?

[chamber]

I feel like my posts aren't easy to grok without of context.

[chamber]

Would guess MariaR.

[chamber]

Typo of maru then?

[chamber]

I literally never considered picking based on the association of relative scummyness to the semantic meaning of the vest's because I assumed that wouldn't be how the scum were chosen. Do you actually think that's how the scum vests were chosen?

[chamber]

Completely useless without flips. Trying to imagine how this conversation goes any differently on page 5 though.

[chamber]

To me it just looks like click/jiffy aren't even trying to hide that they are scum together

[chamber]

You think me and chick are scum together?

[chamber]

[post]1131[post] doesn't look like a manufactured backwards thought process to me. i guess it isn't that hard to fake but i still like it.

Does it have to have been backwards manufactured? It could have been the reasoning she had manufactured at the time of making it.

[chamber]

I'm just not interested in a D1 Chickadee wagon she's got 4 teammates why don't you help me figure them out RC

I think Gamma is one.

RC, the weekend is not best for me. I'll have some time tonight to look at the game.

But lynching me won't end it, so if you really do think I'm scum, do me a favor and try to work out the other 4.

This pair of posts is damning for both of them to me. But then her attacks on me shortly after are why I switched to her over majiffy. I legitimately think they have day talk, and were both repeating some point discussed in the scum Private Topic without realizing the other had already done so.

[chamber]

ok.

Is this to alisea or myself or both? Feels a bit underwhelming regardless.

[chamber]

alright.
i remember seeing you talk about that earlier, chamber, but i must have misinterpreted as i didn't realize you were talking about it indicating daytalk.
i think it could also be a case of parroting (as in seeing a phrase and subconsciously repeating it), but i do definitely see a world where both of them are scum together.

still, i have some reasons to think Chick could be town, and none fir Majiffy. also i didn't like his posting around the middle of the game but i'll grab them later when i feel like it.

pedit: that was to Alisae, chamber. i guess i was frustrated that Alisae was just quoting a past admission of not reading Chick's full ISO, and not answering if e'd done so

now

, but then i realized it was a dumb thing to be frustrated about.

It's really hard for me to buy that it's subconscious parroting, when his post was one of the last substantive posts made before she posted. I think you'd know you were doing it at that point. You would reference it. Not just repeat it like that.

[chamber]

so you think she instead missed it completely, and just went ahead talking about something from in the scum PT?

I don't like how you've worded this for the record.

I don't always read partner posts carefully. I imagine it was talked about in the scum PT as a defensive strategy that could be used. Some misunderstanding about who was supposed to implement it?

[chamber]

@ alch inside jokes was most of what I got out of it, though chara continued to be towny and alisae continue to be nully
chamber might actually be town, but I'm still struggling to tell

I don't really buy your change in read on me here.

[chamber]

To me it just looks like click/jiffy aren't even trying to hide that they are scum together

By that theory Alch would have to be scum too or why would we derail that wagon to push one no one has shown interest in

I think you positioned yourself in opposition of RC more than in defense of alch. I think you did nothing to actually derail the alch wagon. The best that can be said is you didn't vote for him. The even that ultimately took the wind out of that wagons sails was RC moving his vote.

[chamber]

which part?

[chamber]

To me it just looks like click/jiffy aren't even trying to hide that they are scum together

By that theory Alch would have to be scum too or why would we derail that wagon to push one no one has shown interest in

I think you positioned yourself in opposition of RC more than in defense of alch. I think you did nothing to actually derail the alch wagon.

You think incorrectly. I actively started fighting the Alch wagon, and then the Alch wagon died off.

And FWIW, RC positioned themselves Anti-Majiffy, not the other way around.

The best that can be said is you didn't vote for him. The even that ultimately took the wind out of that wagons sails was RC moving his vote.

Yes and RC saying the wagon was a reaction test like he did with

literally every wagon

before he replaced out.

But you RC apologists seem to always forget that when you base your arguments off RC's opinions.

Correlation != causation. That you said something before the wagon fell apart is irrelevant. I also didn't say my read on you is based on RC thinking you are scum? That's not even a strawman. You are just setting up blocks to know them down yourself. I actually think RC is scum with you and chick. All I said was that it was RC unvoting that caused the wagon to fall apart.

[chamber]

Try rereading literally any of his posts.

[chamber]

You don't info lynch in this setup. 2/3rds of the town EV is lynching scum day 1.