Mini 2014: Succinct Mafia (Over)

[Jingle]

Sup yall. First, I intended to quote every post that could be argued to have broken the spirit of the rules and make comments totaling exactly 500 words, just because I'm an asshole. I gave up on doing this because I'm very lazy.

Second, half of the reason for me to replace into this game was to lynch Pine. If you deny me that chance I will light the forum on fire. Do not doubt my ability to do things that are literally physically impossible.

Third, mastina is a meanie because she refused to "cheat" by "literally breaking the site's rules" and sending a PM to all living players before daystart telling them that I would be policy lynching anyone who got on Pine's wagon before me.

3a. I demand everyone currently voting Pine unvote so that I can be the first vote on Pine. Otherwise, I'm going to policy lynch you. For realsies.

4. My notes from Day one say Pine obvscum, Wis obvtown, Fuzzy obvtown. I need to reread to make sure that's still how I feel, but that's where I'm at as of where I last was reading this game.

5. Lycanfire is very clearly scum.

6. Tomorrow is RPG day and I need to prep an adventure, so I'll be a minimal presence at least.

7. One of my friends offered to buy me all I can drink Mimosas Sunday. The last time such an offer was made the bar had to send the manager for more champagne twice over the course of two and a half hours, so I'll probably be very busy until about 3 in the afternoon PST, at which point I will be very drunk and willing to answer questions. Any hammers or attempts to put Pine to L-1 to let him hammer himself before then will be taken as scumclaims and purged with fire accordingly.

8. Any attempts to say that a 48 hour stay of execution for my fir-y friend is unreasonable will be met with scornful laughter and derision.

Now is the portion of the evening when I begin taking ass and kicking names. You may begin showering me with adoration and small denomination currency at your earliest convenience.

[Jingle]

Talk to me about this and about who else is scum with Pine

Sure. Pine knows me from one of the best towngames I ever had, where we were masons. He most certainly would have wanted me dead sooner than later, but I am still alive. This tells me A. I'm lynchbait slot or B. Umlaut was scary to scum in a big way. Lycanfire's reaction to Math's request to let me catch up suggests that he is afraid of me getting the time to get my feet underneath me, hence Pine told him about my towngame and he wants the day over before I have a chance to analyse the game and put my reads out there.

Therefore, Lycan is scum.

Loosely, this suggests Mathtown- given that in this sequence of events Math is going directly counter to Pine's plan (Pine's forte as scum).

Analysis as to the third will wait until I've finished reading, done a Wistown case, and done a Pinescum case (yes, trust me the last is important.)

[Jingle]

If you'll point out what specifically is BS, I'll add provide evidence that it isn't to my to do list.

Of course, you will have to wait 24 hours to do so, because you've already used 4 posts this page, but I can wait. I'm patient.

[Jingle]

Haven't had time to finish reading, but 24 hours will have passed by the time I can post again, so I'm going to make this post to try and get the turnover towards the next page and game the system for a better conversation with Wisdom.

LO, your read on the D1 wagon is pretty much the opposite of mine. Any particular reason you expect scum were keen to push specifically that lynch through?

[Jingle]

LO, your read on the D1 wagon is pretty much the opposite of mine. Any particular reason you expect scum were keen to push specifically that lynch through?

Still quite interested in this response, don't particularly want to talk about Pinescum case until I get an answer. Still do want to talk about Pine scumcase.



@Trinity:

Who are your other scumreads and why?

Your slot was a troll slot before replacing out but your entrance has me feel moderately okay about you.

I kinda got that from D2, actually, which means I was never going to be the nightkill last night and the lycan bit is less damning than I previously thought, but still worth noting. His continued posting makes me more and more certain I'm correct.

Spoiler: Wistown Case Quotes

i dont like fitz
his scumleans are based on nai things

i like hiraki and arc
hiraki's articulated read on arc felt good even though I disagree
arc omgusing me is natural for town-her as she's a reactive person mainly based on emotions

<<<

INFRACTION

: Fifth post on a page in under 24 hours; user has been warned. >>>

What NAI things are my scumleans based on wrt you and Eevee?

These:

@Eevee, wrt 77...as much as you value your vote if you WERE to vote it would be me, the person who's possibly posted the least? You've no suspicions up to this point from what content there is from others?

@Wis, wrt 82...do you ever say you're town when you're scum? If fluffing is NAI why the Koki vote?

You having posted the least doesn't mean Eevee is not allowed to scumread you more than people who have posted more. This is no basis for a scumlean.

Me saying I am town is meaningless and thus nai. Me voting Kokichi can be for any number of reasons regardless of what I think of his fluff. This is no basis for a scumlean.

VOTE: fitz

dont post again, Wisdom, fourth post.

There is a pattern here that is established and continued that leads me to believe Wisdom is town. The pages where Wisdom has trouble with hitting his limit early are also those pages where Wisdom is pushing a read. He's not using his posts to strongman the thread and get people to follow him, but to prod and illuminate. Admittedly, I remembered him as actually getting more infractions, but the posts that were close and thus posts in which he reminds himself not to continue posting follow this pattern.

This tells me Wisdom is likely having trouble not continuing to post not because he's spammy scum who wants to control the thread but because he's spammy town who wants to comment/poke for content.

Additionally, he gets major credit for being a voice of reason on both of the bad-theory lynches.

I'll be back to do more reading later, in case anyone has questions.

[Jingle]

Because having the chance to get rid of the cop D1 without having to worry about the protective role getting in the way is probably worth the risk of voting together.

Why do you have the opposite read?

The way the wagon formed is precisely why I thought Pine was scum in the first place.

The game was stalled out, Pine wasn't really trying for the lynch, and he wasn't really pushing. Pine, both as town and scum is more than capable of pushing a lynch, which means he didn't really care. Thus, scum was probably not in a position where they needed to be concerned at all on day one

Pine voted for fuzzy in 35 for a weak reason, then stayed there for the entire day phase. He pretended to be hardscumreading it but spent no time pushing the lynch. The only reason the wagon even went through was because of a deadline with absentee players. BoP, but Pine town and Pine scum are better at getting their lynch through than that. If he'd actually cared about lynching fuzzy, it wouldn't be a deadline affair, it would have been done long before that. Conclusion? Pine didn't give a shit and both leading wagons are town, meaning Fitzslot can be trusted.

Your analysis is suspect because of the votes on Fuzzy, two came post cop claim. My slot's vote and Wisdom's deadline hammer. My slot is necessarily town by my own information, and Wisdom's slot spent the end of the phase trying to get a different wagon to take off.

How would you respond if I said your scumtell was here and I planned on pushing you tomorrow?

I'd wonder why you were waiting if you thought I actually was scum. TBF, I did realize that I 100% need to be lynched before LYLO anyway though, from a mechanical standpoint, because my slot fake softclaimed D1 and thus we can't bring me to LYLO.

[Jingle]

Fuzzy isn't cop. We only have 8 hours and need a lynch.

vote for a deadline extension of 1 week

Just in case it doesn't work.

VOTE: fuzzy

8 hrs remain this is L1 someone hammer. I can guarantee he isn't cop.

For reference, this is the post that means I cannot be allowed to live until LYLO. I got incredibly excited when I first read it, and then sad when I realized it guaranteed a mislynch. At least I get to lynch Pine though.

[Jingle]

Why Hiraki?

[Jingle]

What’s the proper strategy here Jingle?

I recognize all of these as English words.

I recognize that together those words form a sentence.

I don't recognize that sentence as having any meaning at all in the context of this game, and would appreciate translation.

I await your mysterious scumtell, preferably sooner than later, so that I can tell if you're blowing smoke up my ass or just hilariously wrong.

And for the record, I have read the thread at this point.

@LO: What?

[Jingle]

What’s the proper strategy here Jingle?

I recognize all of these as English words.

I recognize that together those words form a sentence.

I don't recognize that sentence as having any meaning at all in the context of this game, and would appreciate translation.

I await your mysterious scumtell, preferably sooner than later, so that I can tell if you're blowing smoke up my ass or just hilariously wrong.

And for the record, I have read the thread at this point.

@LO: What?

viewtopic.php?p=10176950#p10176950

The place where your scum tell exists.

You said you had to be lynched before Mylo. I scumread you. You’re following a scum tell.

You need to die.

What are your reads in more detail?

Counter-argument:

Grey Flag Geriatric Game.

I do need to die.

I'm working on them as we speak. When I'm ready, I'll talk about them, but until then I'd like to engage with the players in thread and refine them. I only get the one shot at this, and my read so far is that scum is rather unworried by the gamestate. That means I need to be thorough. We have the time to play solve the thread, so I'm going to work on solving the thread.

@Jingle, if you've read the thread, there should be no confusion at this point

False Dichotomy.

Let's phrase this a different way then. Why does it make any sense for me to be specifically a likely scumpartner to someone on the basis that I was attempting to engage a townread about their suspicion on that player? Specifically, what is the logical reason that leads you to the partner conclusion based on me replacing in and asking someone to talk MORE about why a particular player is scum, especially after I have already expressed that I cannot be allowed to survive into LYLO?

Hey I’m really sorry, I’m going on holiday to Rarotonga on Saturday for a week, and probably won’t have internet. Is it best to go on V/LA or ask for a replacement? I thought the game wouldn’t last this long.

Normally, I'd say a week is the limit and you should ask for a replacement. In this particular case, I happen to know that mastina has been having some issues finding replacements and it might just be best to stay in it.

I'd be fine with letting you go V/LA that long given the relaxed nature of this game, but you might also consider telling mastina that you are requesting replacement, but that if your slot is still vacant when you return you'd be happy to resume playing in it. That way the game isn't stalled on your account if it would otherwise have been progressing, but she doesn't have to deal with as much pressure searching for a replacement for your slot would normally cause.

[Jingle]

Spiritually my vote is still here but I would love for you to keep sharing reads.

Literally all I ask for is the space to build my reads and a town willing to consider them when I'm dead.

Did you get a chance to look through that game I linked for my 'scumtell' yet?

It's not, really. Both Umlaut and Wisdom had you and Hiraki as Pine buddies. They are both dead. The easy answer to this is you and Hiraki are scum. That doesn't make it the right answer, but it's the easy answer and you should be well aware of this if you've read the thread. I believe you've read the thread, just not that you are confused about why people are putting you and Hiraki together.

Except that this is not the argument you made. What you did mention was a progression that lead you to think we were specifically partners.

On a purely gut level, your asking Wisdom about Hiraki reads a tad defensive and disingenuous to me. Wisdom already said he was pretty much following Umlaut on that, so that much should have been clear to you. It read to me as challenging Wisdom, not engaging him to elaborate. I could be wrong there but you are clearly not a minimalist poster so a short "Why Hiraki" doesn't seem likely to be genuinely engaging from you.

A direct request for more information is "Challenging, not engaging him to elaborate"? And this on the basis that I am not a minimalist poster? So what would you expect from me as a request for more information, as opposed to a challenge?

The rest of your post doesn't make sense in context, btw. I asked "What leads you to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" and you responded with "You asking what leads me to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner." This is necessarily false, and therefore cannot be the answer to my question.

Further, it occurs to me you never answered my 1149. What ever came of that analysis?

[Jingle]

The other conversation aside:
What do you make of Hiraki?
And assuming you are town and I am town and Hiraki is scum who is scum with Hiraki and why?
Assuming you are town and Hiraki is town and I am town who is scum and why?

Lastly why shouldn’t I believe you are scum with Hiraki?

If you need more words than the post limit allows post <NEED A POST> and I will provide one.

Acknowledged, but not answered as yet. I'll get to this in a bit, but it's neither a time nor a word amount concern.

It's not, really. Both Umlaut and Wisdom had you and Hiraki as Pine buddies. They are both dead. The easy answer to this is you and Hiraki are scum. That doesn't make it the right answer, but it's the easy answer and you should be well aware of this if you've read the thread. I believe you've read the thread, just not that you are confused about why people are putting you and Hiraki together.

Except that this is not the argument you made. What you did mention was a progression that lead you to think we were specifically partners.

Here is what I said:

Easiest answer here is

Jingle+Hiraki

. At least one, maybe both.

Both

were after Wisdom D1 as well, and I felt pretty confident then that scum was pushing that wagon. Right now I'm more confident about Jingleslot than Hiraki, though it occurs to me that Hiraki might be buddying me, and Jingle's apparent confusion over Hiraki as 3rd scum (1152) makes that

pairing

more likely. Still need convincing it's not Trinity, though.

Note that at no point am I 100% sold on the idea that you're partners. What I'm saying is that I can see a world in which you are. Tell me what is specifically confusing you here.

Your claim to be a linguist IRL actually makes this a bigger deal. Everything about this post is pairing me and Hiraki. Not that Hiraki and I are independently scum with Pine, but that we TOGETHER are scum with Pine. Trinity is independently scum, but no sentence mentioning either me or Hiraki doesn't also mention the other.

On a purely gut level, your asking Wisdom about Hiraki reads a tad defensive and disingenuous to me. Wisdom already said he was pretty much following Umlaut on that, so that much should have been clear to you. It read to me as challenging Wisdom, not engaging him to elaborate. I could be wrong there but you are clearly not a minimalist poster so a short "Why Hiraki" doesn't seem likely to be genuinely engaging from you.

A direct request for more information is "Challenging, not engaging him to elaborate"? And this on the basis that I am not a minimalist poster? So what would you expect from me as a request for more information, as opposed to a challenge?

So I just typed up a

385 word answer

to this. The TL/DR is that you're asking someone to explain a

gut read

(kind of silly), this is a really minor point in my thought process, and the person you're asking is a linguist who constantly overanalyzes things like tone in text conversation, so let's all decide if it's really worth me posting this or if it will just be a distraction.

:thorface:

The rest of your post

doesn't make sense in context, btw. I asked "What leads you to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" and you responded with "You asking what leads me to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner." This is necessarily false, and therefore cannot be the answer to my question.

1. Misrep/strawman. Please take that "quote" you gave and align it with what I actually said.

"You asking what leads me to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner."

Regardless, the more important thing here is that you seem to be implying that it wouldn't make any sense for scum!you to ask Wisdom to elaborate on his scumread of scum!Hiraki. Why not? For one thing, it would make perfect sense if the goal is to distance yourself from Hiraki. I mean, here you are saying "why would I do this to my partner?', so in the event of your lynch, you would hope that we'd say "well he probably wasn't trying to put that much attention on his partner, so it can't be Hiraki."

For another thing, I'd think Wisdom giving a really vague but determined scumread on your partner would be really scary for you as scum. There's no chance to reason with him and he has potential to be very influential on the town, so getting Wisdom to elaborate on his scumread would give both you and Hiraki a chance to refute some points and diffuse suspicion (if not for Wisdom, then for the rest of the town). Whether or not you are present to do so is irrelevant. The fact that you didn't get this from Wisdom, saw that he was consistently giving vague reads over the game and wasn't likely going to be engaging you or Hiraki in any sort of 1v1 that would be beneficial to you or especially Hiraki in endgame makes his NK make perfect sense in this scenario.

2. Also, that's not

exactly

the question you asked me. Here it is for context:

Let's phrase this a different way then.

Why does it make any sense for me to be specifically a likely scumpartner

to someone

on the basis that I was attempting to engage a townread about their suspicion on that player?

Specifically,

what is the logical reason that leads you to the partner conclusion

based on me replacing in and asking someone to talk MORE about why a particular player is scum, especially after I have already expressed that I cannot be allowed to survive into LYLO?

1. With a

very generous

reading, there is a question here of "what leads you the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" These are the bits that I've underlined. I answered that in part by saying I see some defensiveness in your questioning Wisdom on Hiraki. If you want me to go back and check associatives further, fine, I should anyway, but that isn't really what you asked me.

Very generous apparently means contextual, in this case.

2. Each of those underlined bits is accompanied by a

very defensive

second line of questioning, the bolded bits, which is "why would what I have done make sense if me and Hiraki are partners?" I chose to respond to this, saying that there is a world in which this makes perfect sense.

The question was not "why would what I have done make sense if me and Hiraki are partners?" but "why do you think me and Hiraki are partners based on that evidence?"

The important thing is not that there is a world where it makes sense. The important thing is that that is the conclusion you drew. There is a world in which hoofbeats come from a zebra. That still doesn't mean someone who shouts "Zebra!" everytime they hear hoofbeats isn't noteworthy.

Further, it occurs to me you never answered my 1149. What ever came of that analysis?

I didn't see a question to respond to but I suppose you might have just wanted a reaction to it. I saw your version of events and didn't find anything particularly convincing one way or another.

You apparently find my analysis suspect because only two votes came after the claim. One of those includes your slot, so yeah, from my POV that gives you a scumpoint. From your POV, that shouldn't seem illogical or even worth me responding to...
Also, Pine might not have cared about pushing a Fuzzy lynch

if he knew he had a scumbuddy who could seal the deal

i.e. your slot, so that is still very plausible.

The fact is that your analysis does not match the sequence of events in the thread, which I pointed out in that post. I would think that for someone as interested in analysis as you appear to be, that would definitely at least bear a response.

[Jingle]

Going to agree that Jingle is just trying to stall by quibbling with me. He's yet to actually come up with any sort of case against me, or anyone else for that matter. Not going to engage with Jingle until he provides some reads since our 1v1 is clearly going to go in circles based on his last response.

Also,

@Mastina, can we get a prod of Lycanfire?

He's not posted at all D4 yet.

I'm satisfied.

L'Otter is scum, Hiraki is the likely partner.

First, L'Otter's analysis is very surface level for someone who is supposedly a linguist. Second, the complete lack of reevaluation when confronted with evidence that his read on the gamestate suggests he's not fitting reads to analysis but analysis to reads. Third, his analysis of the game itself is complete garbage, which suggests he's doing it not to critically think through what has actually happened, but rather to look like he's critically thinking. Fourth, his post today about lynching me, Hiraki, and Trinity suggests he doesn't think the game will be over after lynching both me and Hiraki, meaning exactly one scum in those two. The awkward linking of me and Hiraki means that when I flip green, he has every opportunity to back down from the Hiraki lynch and switch to whatever lynch gets the most support. Finally, as he begins realizing that my posts are not about defending myself but rather digging for his alignment, he's suddenly not interested in talking to me anymore.

If anyone wants clarification or elaboration, speak up.

Otherwise, I intend to selfvote as soon as Trinity is back. Not before, because if the game is going to sit in limbo waiting on them or a replacement it should happen while we can actually still talk, not during a nightphase.

[Jingle]

Fuzzy isn't cop. We only have 8 hours and need a lynch.

vote for a deadline extension of 1 week

Just in case it doesn't work.

VOTE: fuzzy

8 hrs remain this is L1 someone hammer. I can guarantee he isn't cop.

For reference, this is the post that means I cannot be allowed to live until LYLO. I got incredibly excited when I first read it, and then sad when I realized it guaranteed a mislynch. At least I get to lynch Pine though.

Nothing has changed since this.

[Jingle]

Cool story. But you only started "digging for my alignment" when I said I was likely to vote you. From then on you've done nothing but argue with me. You've not done much sorting of anyone else pretty much the whole time you've been here. What happened to Lycan being scum? You were super sure about that yesterday.

My analysis of the game is garbage? Rude. Tell me why I'm wrong about suspecting Trinity. Or Dunn for that matter.

The post that made me start digging at you AND the garbage analysis of the game:

Happy Birthday, Umlaut! lol
--
For reference, EOD VCs:
D1:
TheFuzzylogic99 - 7 (LuckyOtter, MathBlade,

SirCakez

TrinityNZ, Pine, Dunnstral,

Kokichi Oma Mafmen

Jingle, Wisdom)
havingfitz - 4 (Momrangal,

ArcAngel9

Lycanfire, Hiraki, TheFuzzylogic99)
EeveeLution Army - 1 (havingfitz)
Pine - 1 (EeveeLution Army)

D2:
EeveeLution Army - 6 (

MafMen

Jingle, Pine, Hiraki, TrinityNZ, Dunnstral, Umlaut)
Pine - 2 (EeveeLution Army, Wisdom)

Not Voting - 3 (Lycanfire, MathBlade, LuckyOtter)
--
Pine of course is on both lynches, as are Dunnstral, Jingleslot, and Trinityslot.
I wouldn't usually expect all 3 scum to vote together all the time, but having the opportunity to take out PRs is enticing. Plus, Fuzzy and Eevee were both easy mislynches. I'd expect at least one of these three to be scum. Jingleslot was in Umlaut's named scumteam, so that would be the obvious place to look, but I still think Maf's "Pine is town without a doubt" would be super bold for a scumbuddy.

On Hiraki: I don't like his vote on Eevee following the counterclaim, but his earlier vote on Pine doesn't make sense to me if they are buddies. Eevee was at 3 votes, Pine was at 1, then Umlaut and Wisdom voted Pine. Hiraki's vote puts Pine at 4, saying "this game needs something to get it to move and this might as well be something." He could just as easily have said this about Eevee and voted there. I don't think it was so obvious Pine's wagon would build so that he felt like he'd have to bus here. Unless the plan was to run up a Pine wagon until he claimed, then back off. In such a plan, though, there will be a counterclaim and Pine should be the obvious lynch, which would essentially mean sacrificing Pine. I don't think that makes sense given the state of the game.

Trinity, on the other hand, now sees Pine's wagon building and says that she could vote Pine, and eventually puts him at L-1. Once the fire dies down, Trinity goes over to the Math wagon. Later on, votes Eevee after the counterclaim. The reasoning for the vote and keeping it there is Eevee's apparent contradictory statements, which are easily explainable (as pointed out by Wisdom and myself). I think everything lines up for Trinity!scum here. I'm inclined to think this makes Math very likely town.

As for Dunn, Umlaut clears him based on this:

It was 1013, thanks for noticing. You asked Pine who he protected after he had already said in his claim. Especially where you yourself placed intent on him, if it were all an act I'd expect that you'd have worked out that detail of the claim in the PT and you wouldn't forget it.

I'm really not following Umlaut here. Scum!Dunn could very easily say these things. He ignores the fact that Pine already says who he protected and goes about pretending to sort the claims. Scum!Dunn is still plausible to me, but I don't have any more time right now to sort him out.

As it stands, Trinity is my best guess for scum with Pine. Jingle and Dunn are decent bets as a shot in the dark, but I want to look at the timing of their votes more carefully. I don't think Hiraki makes sense as Pine's buddy. More later.

The beginning of me digging at you:

Haven't had time to finish reading, but 24 hours will have passed by the time I can post again, so I'm going to make this post to try and get the turnover towards the next page and game the system for a better conversation with Wisdom.

LO, your read on the D1 wagon is pretty much the opposite of mine. Any particular reason you expect scum were keen to push specifically that lynch through?

For reference, that was my 4th post. On the day after I replaced into the game.

Flail harder.

Would also like to point out that L'Otter is very concerned now about my read on him when I'm apparently both scum and advocating lynching me first. L'Otter then Hiraki. Gamesolved, don't get distracted by shinies.

[Jingle]

I'd rather you deal with the slot more likely to be able to weasel it's way out of the lynch first, but the important part there is

don't get distracted by the shinies.

[Jingle]

Intent to vote Jingle once VC is posted

I'm at 3 votes and we have an empty slot. I'd rather wait for the Trinity slot to be resolved before nightphase.

[Jingle]

im waiting for trinity

We’re not waiting more than 10 days on Trinity. I will hammer if you have nothing else to add. That is longer than the night phase.

It’s only 4 days.

[Jingle]

Cool. That’s enough.

VOTE: Jingle.

Cya in the postgame.

[Jingle]

I hammered. Trinity's post confirms they'll be around enough to submit actions, thus night should be normal length. Ya'll gonna see my green flip, lynch L'Otter, lynch Hiraki, then praise my genius.

[Jingle]

Trinity just confirmed that they can read the thread and have no questions about my case. If no one has questions and there are no empty slots, what is the point in waiting?

[Jingle]

Clearly ank should be force replaced and the game put on hold while mastina finds someone willing to replace into a post game.

Also if you read this lycan you definitely shouldn’t count this as a win.

[Jingle]

And also Pine was scum.

[Jingle]

I meant your strategy for this particular part of the game. I note you haven’t answered my question Dunn.

FWIW, my strategy for how to play LYLO as town is to vote for obvscum, and if there isn't obvscum vote for whoever I would feel most bad losing to. At least that way, if I lose I have the consolation of being legitimately outplayed. It also prevents stagnation and a deadline lynch, which is usually more likely to be on me than a non deadline lynch.

From that point, (knowing a conftown or having already lost) it's pretty easy to make a case and try to convince the town player to go along with me. Just play the ISO game and talk exclusively to the person you know is town. If the other player raises a point worth addressing, say why it is wrong as succinctly as possible, and get back to trying to get them lynched. You know they're scum, so you have the best chance of being able to figure out what proves that. Of course, the reason I made it to LYLO as town was probably because my reads were super bad that game and I'm probably going to lose the LYLO, but being proactive is always a good start. The big thing to take away from it is to always learn something from your completed games. As long as you improve your play in the future you're doing the right thing.

[Jingle]

I don't really know whether the dragging out bit was a flaw of the rules, but rather of the game. By which I mean, as a playerlist we could have been more engaged. I do think the rules will probably work best with shorter games though, particularly those with additional killing roles (vigs, serial killers, suiciding N0 Innocent Children), to push additional discussion to the front. And LAL is definitely worth pursuing with this ruleset.

A possibility for the prod fix, which I agree is a problem, would be something like if no one has posted for 48 hours, a deadline is automatically instituted.

I look forward to someone trying to use this ruleset for a Greatest Idea game though.

[Jingle]

Jingle tell