Open 739: Epic Duel [Game Over]

[Io]

VOTE: Edgelord5000

[Io]

Wait think I misspelled XxdarkfrostxX.

[Io]

VOTE: XxdarkfrostxX

Fixed

[Io]

I mean, really I don't think the duels do anything.

It just makes the game go by faster because it makes it double lynch nightless.

Duel is literally just another lynch as it's the exact same mechanic.

[Io]

Except you're locked in to two wagons that aren't necessarily consensus

Pedit: @io

And?

It's still a second lynch. Although you have less choices it's still the same as a lynch.

[Io]

I mean, really I don't think the duels do anything.

It just makes the game go by faster because it makes it double lynch nightless.

Duel is literally just another lynch as it's the exact same mechanic.

I don't think the duel mechanics should be used early in the game, because it brings town more harm than good.
Like, there's no need to rush to get the additional day lynch, because scum aren't able to kill at night anyways
so we can just take our time and not worry about all of that

and even though people might think that they've got solid reads early in the game, all of that usually ends in everyone changing them later anyways
so forcing people to vote among 2 people early in the game is illogical.

It might make sense, late in the game, if scum get near majority, but doing it early on is just not needed

I'm just saying I don't think it changes anything.

Lynching 4 people is the same as dueling 2 players and lynching 2 only it's day 3 instead of day 5.

[Io]

Guess it's a perspective thing.
Also kind of depends on how you use the duels.
We could always for example as a majority force 2 players we think are scum to duel each other.

[Io]

I defiantly don't think that dueling is an end of the world scenario.
But I'd only do it if I was confident someone was scum and they were not the top wagon.

[Io]

Are your early reads perfect? Don’t you ever change them later on?
If yes, why rush things when you can’t even back out of it later? You’ll just end up in a situation where you (conf town from your pov) are in a duel with your previous SR, which is now a TR.
While the risk might be worth it late in the game, why rush it early on? Wouldn’t it be better to just wait a few days more just to get that chance to back out if sth unexpected happens?

Yes, I am flawless. No I do not change reads unless I'm a Cop.
Why rush things? Because last time I decided to make compromises and let someone I was confident scum not hang they survived to the end and scum won.
But yeah no. If you're confident someone is scum you'd be stupid to let them live and not try to lynch them, duel them, or make a case on them.

I'm just saying I don't think it changes anything.

Lynching 4 people is the same as dueling 2 players and lynching 2 only it's day 3 instead of day 5.

it being day 3 instead of day 5 makes a big difference imo

Not really since duels add time almost equal to a whole day anyways.

[Io]

Guess it's a perspective thing.
Also kind of depends on how you use the duels.
We could always for example as a majority force 2 players we think are scum to duel each other.

wait, actually, that's an interesting idea :I
idk how would it work, but you've got my attention

Well it's mostly a thing for when there are only 2 scum left.
If we come to a consensus "Player X duel player Y" then if they are both scum they will not duel each other because scum would instantly lose by default.
Therefor it can be used as a sort of Parity Cop where we know if both refuse to duel then they both have to be scum but otherwise if they agree we know at least 1 is town.

[Io]

It's mostly just an idea though.
It is pretty flimsy and does not actually yield anything concrete usually.
I'd only really consider it in a 2v3 (TvS) scenario.

[Io]

I don't know why people act like not being able to back down is a bad thing.
This is the wild west not flag football. Step up and have some confidence in your reads.

[Io]

I don't know about ya'll but in great state of Texas we shot first ask questions later.

[Io]

Though, speaking of reads I kinda like ejjinami right now.
Although I don't agree with them I feel like their paranoia over mislynching comes from town.

[Io]

It's actually kinda amazing how many words they've both said without moving the game anywhere useful.

It's what I do best. You can thank me later.

[Io]

Can we like kill both if people decide to duel like in transformers mafia.

I so want to duel you now.

[Io]

I don’t think it’s that bad.
Yeah there is the fear of not knowing if you are in a lose-lose or if your opponent is scum.
But we only have to succeed with 2 lynched/duels and scum need 4 mislynces.
It seems weighted in our favor.

[Io]

As long as no one pulls a stupid meme duel that is.

[Io]

Can we like kill both if people decide to duel like in transformers mafia.

I so want to duel you now.

Why?

Because you said you wanted to lynch both parties involved in a duel.

[Io]

Do you have a death wish, Io?

I ask myself that every day I’m still alive.

[Io]

The problem is that you are just guardnteeing a 100% chance for a townie lynch.
And then another 33% chance for a scum lynch, 66% for 2 town.
At least in the current numbers.

Scum would have to be some kinda stupid to duel each other.

[Io]

Damn, you drive a hard bargain.
But I’m not scum reading Ejj at the moment.
Please try again when you have more evidence.

[Io]

S

[Io]

Thanks phone

[Io]

Thing is, Io... I'm your new sheriff. And your sheriff needs you, see.

Too bad I’m the marshal.
I outrank ya.

[Io]

I’m sorry my phone really wanted to type the letter S.

[Io]

Didn’t capitalize “Duel” ya nub.

[Io]

Damn, you drive a hard bargain.
But I’m not scum reading Ejj at the moment.
Please try again when you have more evidence.

this is a really bizarre way to respond
like 'not scum reading ejj at the moment' is fine, but like why specify at the moment? if you think he's town why do you specifically talk about it like it's subject to change?
and 'please try again when you have more evidence' feels to me like she knows that he's scum like who talks about evidence on your townreads kind of thing

I literally just mean I’m not going to vote someone I’m town reading at the moment unless you actually can provide me a valid reason to doubt that they are town. And yes, reads are subject to change whenever.

[Io]

Still a bad plan gramr.
If someone kills scum there’s no reason to lynch them.

[Io]

Btw it's not just the rolling town

All the things he was thinking are straight up scum thought process

I don’t really see the scum thought process to be honest.
He’s had like 2 real posts that I could really see.
The first was just saying he would like to duel at some point in the game, I don’t see how that is a scum thought process. I mean we all signed up because of dueling.
The other was the one you quoted. I don’t see why what he posted isn’t valid though. I was thinking your outburst felt forced, I mean you practically said it unprovoked just because someone joked about dealing you.

[Io]

@garmr - who have you played with before from this playerlist?

I've played with him. He my bae.

Also RIP quotes.

I wouldn't really classify that as a freakout.
And didn't you say that me not being 100% confident in Ejjnami being town meant I was scum?
I'm not going to let you use that as a reason for Walk being scum if you're going to do that too.

[Io]

Still a bad plan gramr.
If someone kills scum there’s no reason to lynch them.

Oh I'm not sure you catching what i'm saying.

In the other game you could vote to let one live. But you could also vote to watch

both die at the same time before night.

So what you could do is get two lynches in one day if you vote to kill both. Making everyone agree vote to double death makes it so scum would have to sacrifice themselves to abuse the duel mechanic.

Nah, I getcha.

I think you're wrong.

Like, here let me draw a diagram for ya.

So it's 7v3, correct? A TvT duel is significantly more likely than a TvS duel. TvT is currently 67% chance and TvS is a 33% chance (assuming a townie initiates a duel which in your world only tonwies would start duels). This baiscally means if a townie dueled right now there is a 67% chance we would lynch 2 townies in your plan. As a reminder scum need 4 mislynches to win. Meaning this only needs to happen 2 times and we lose in your plan. You would be better off arguing we do not use duels period rather than following this plan which has a very good chance to end poorly for us.

I was skeptical of the phrasing you used moreso than the fact that you didn't vote for him.

You also can't like 'let' me use anything'- I'm using it regardless of your feelings about it.

Meh, it's how I talk. Ain't nothin' gonna change that.

[Io]

So it's 7v3, correct? A TvT duel is significantly more likely than a TvS duel. TvT is currently 67% chance and TvS is a 33% chance (assuming a townie initiates a duel which in your world only tonwies would start duels). This baiscally means if a townie dueled right now there is a 67% chance we would lynch 2 townies in your plan. As a reminder scum need 4 mislynches to win. Meaning this only needs to happen 2 times and we lose in your plan. You would be better off arguing we do not use duels period rather than following this plan which has a very good chance to end poorly for us.

And that's ignoring the fact that if a townie did initiate a duel and win against scum lynching them is like lynching a vigilante who just show a goon which is something I refuse to do without a very good reason to suspect it was Mafia shooting Mafia.

[Io]

If you want to dissuade scum from initiating duels. I think it'd be far better to just not instantly trust anyone who initiates a duel as being town.
We can lynch either person.

[Io]

Wh4t replace out if this game or I am duelling you.

>Replaces out
>Duels anyways
10/10

Well ain't that a plot twist.
There's nothing to really go off of though since Wh4t hasn't posted yet and just got replaced.
I'm not sure what to think of Radiant though, but I'm leaning town at the moment because I don't feel like scum would be that bold to duel in the middle of everyone talking about possibly lynching all the people who initiate duels.

[Io]

Remember when I said no backing down from duels wasn’t that bad.
Boy how naïve I was. Radiant regrets all the dessicions.

[Io]

Honestly there’s nothing yet.
I got slight lean town on Ejj and Radiant.
But that’s all. I got a gut scum lean on someone, but I’ll hold off for now. Get back to you later on that read.

[Io]

I'll catch another scum in six days

@everyone can I get some reads?

I'm not going to talk about you.

Ejji and Nick are my scumleans..

PP is null {PP + Walt not a team}

Garmr seems townie

All I done so far was try and set up the game so yolo duels are to be avoided and take the duel mechanics away from scums hand. I haven't actually gave out my reads yet because I'm trying to make judgement on certain scenario. Thanks for the town read through.

And how did preventing yolo duels go for you?

[Io]

Shoshin is just scum here and you can take that to the bank
Bujaber probably still scum

Garmr maybe legit frustrated
RC town
IO town
The absolute lack of people voting for PP and trying to setup him up as a future mislynch makes me worry that he's scum

I think this is the closest to what I am feeling right now.

I was initially having a sight scum read on gramr mostly since they feel a little off based on the last game I played with them where they were town.
I also was suspecting the plan he made was coming from scum, but the fact he pointed out that scum might make that plan makes me less confident in that read.
I can also say that last game Garmr did get frustrated with someone acting along the lines of edgelord and Radiant. He was town though, so I can't say for sure he is always flustered as town and scum.

Bujaber I'm a bit unsure of. Their large read post makes me thing gut town because it feels genuine but they also liked Garmr's plan which I already said I think it helps scum.

RC's town, scum don't beg to be lynched.

[Io]

I don’t see how anyone could read the last page and say Radiant is scum.
No one, except maybe myself, goes on long arguments with them self as scum.
Not sure about penguin though. I need them more active so I can actually read them.

[Io]

How about we move on and try to be a bit less personal.
I got half my classes canceled today so I should have time to do some dives into the ISO seas and see if I can’t catch some scum.

[Io]

Penguin's good at giving basic reads, but not very good at making himself readable.
I'm a bit unsure about him though, since I'm torn on how to read 336.
I'm leaning more scum though because like the rest of his posts he lacks any substance at all. They are bare-bone reads with no real reasoning behind them.
Most of his posts are also reactionary it seems rather than trying to promote discussion he is just reacting to whatever is brought up and as I said he doesn't even really add anything at all. He says things, but not actually having meaning behind his words.

VOTE: Penguin

[Io]

Why do you town read him exactly?
I don't disagree that post can come from town or scum, but like I said I don't think he is really contributing anything.

[Io]

A few quickfire reads.
Ejj - Null, possibly scum with BuJaber because I find it weird that he said BuJaber's objectively scummy 116 is actually a townslip.
BuJaber - Could be either a VI or scum. 116 is admittedly weird, but the rest of his posts kind of feel like someone trying to promote discussion and I kind of liked his gramr read. So I'm leaning on town who is just really bad at just trusting people who say "X is a scumslip" more than himbeing opportunistic scum.
Gramr - I still am not sure. I stand by my gut that something about him feels off from the last game that I played with him and I am still unsure about if his plan comes from town or scum. I'm almost 100% sure if Penguin is scum so is Gramr. Other than that I really can't tell if he is town or scum at the moment. I can't really see anything that just stands out as this has to be scum and he does feel genuine at times. It's also just hard because of how emotional it got so I can't really trust anything based on that argument because I don't want to get into the territory of asking is his anger was genuine or not so I'll ignore it.

[Io]

I had doubts about Nicolas early on, but I like him more in 331 and 334

[Io]

Sho is null, I don't really see how anyone is reading them at the moment as I can't see anything AI in their posts so far.

Walt is town, makes some good posts, inquires about others reads, and although he doesn't make a lot of reads I like his reads and he feels to be coming from a town perspective.

I'm not even going to attempt to read into TW.

And that's everyone so...

Penguin-garmr-(TW/Ejj/BuJaber) and hopefully not any of my stronger town reads like RC, Walk, or Nicolas.

A few quickfire reads.
Ejj - Null, possibly scum with BuJaber because I find it weird that he said BuJaber's objectively scummy 116 is actually a townslip.
BuJaber - Could be either a VI or scum. 116 is admittedly weird, but the rest of his posts kind of feel like someone trying to promote discussion and I kind of liked his gramr read. So I'm leaning on town who is just really bad at just trusting people who say "X is a scumslip" more than himbeing opportunistic scum.
Gramr - I still am not sure. I stand by my gut that something about him feels off from the last game that I played with him and I am still unsure about if his plan comes from town or scum. I'm almost 100% sure if Penguin is scum so is Gramr. Other than that I really can't tell if he is town or scum at the moment. I can't really see anything that just stands out as this has to be scum and he does feel genuine at times. It's also just hard because of how emotional it got so I can't really trust anything based on that argument because I don't want to get into the territory of asking is his anger was genuine or not so I'll ignore it.

So much for being my bae, my real bae would spell my name correctly heart broken.

I'll be honest. I wrote Garmr at first and was like "that doesn't sound like, I think the a and r are switched."
Sorry...

[Io]

What happens to your scum pool when I flip town?

I haven't gotten that far yet.

[Io]

I will if ya flip town.
Or tomorrow when I go to sleep and wake up and have completely different reads like usual.

[Io]

I had doubts about Nicolas early on, but I like him more in 331 and 334

Why are these better? They seemed scummy to me.

They agree with me about Penguin about them actually saying nothing yet getting a ton of town reads.
They are right that if Radiant and Penguin was TvT Radiant would be the optimal lynch.

[Io]

I still don’t see scum initiating that duel.
I think they’d be more cautious.

[Io]

Usually whenever I've seen Plurality used it still has Majority rules so that if the player hits L-0 they are lynched.
But it also is just possible that we are given the full time reguardless.

[Io]

ejj scum want me to die today because i'm onto them

not because PP is scum.

ik, honestly, one of the big reasons I want you alive is that you SR waltz and gamma and you'll give me an additional vote without me having to overexert myself to convince the others
and there's the interactions thingy, but tbh I prob shouldn't depend too much on it before actually getting a flip
I don't think I can actually read you besides that

Ironically I have a theory that the reason rc has been alive for so long, is because his reads are so fucking shit he is a living assist to scum.

This is just a terrible theory.

If he was scum, then the Mafia clearly just straight bussed him as he's far in the lead with votes.
If he was town scum is clearly not trying to keep him alive because again he is far in the lead with votes.

I also honestly don't like how everyone is just saying that both Radiant and Penguin are town therefore lynch Radiant.
Penguin hasn't don't anything townie so far other than basically getting randomly targeted by Radiant for a duel.
All Penguin really has been doing is just kind of coasting out this duel.

[Io]

I'm pretty sure 3, 4, and 5 are the same point that scum are just hanging back and honestly that's the only way I can really see your theory that scum are avoiding lynching Radiant working.

I'd honestly still like clarification from the mod about how the duels work.
I can't tell if quicklynching is even possible because the game's only mentioned plurality and not anything about needing X votes to be lynched, but the mod also said "if there is no lynch by the end of the day" which implies there is majority.
@mod

Without knowing that I can't really answer that first point. It could just be that an instalynch was impossible.

6 is also plausable, but I don't see how that backs up your theory at all. If scum were playing both sides I would expect them to be trying to balance the votes aka putting more on Penguin to balance out those voting for Radiant since the scum get a free dayvig if lynches end in a tie.

I explained at the end of my last post why I don't like your second point. You're just saying that we should policy lynch Radiant which is ignoring that he is pretty townie even if reckless.

[Io]

Well if that were my reads I'd probably think one of the duelists were scum since I had 5 Null reads and 2 of those 5 were in a duel.
I'd also probably conclude Radiant was scum since Ejj is voting for their opponent and when I looked back through Ejj's posts I noticed 352 saying it was defiantly not a SvS duel.

But you obviously reached the conclusion that both parties were town (I assume you left the read on Penguin and Radiant out on accident) meaning that from your point of view you'd be thinking either scum are not voting or Walt and Ejj are scum attempting to take opposite sides.

So I guess you reached a logical conclusion with that read. Though I probably would be scum reading Radiant if I believed that those people were town/scum.

[Io]

Did you ever explain the FaQ read? I haven't seen much of them and they are hard town.

[Io]

Ah, I kinda just ignored Worst because I knew reading into him would have been fruitless.

[Io]

gramr, FAQ, (BuJaber/Penguin/Sho)
My bets on scum team.
Either way I'm voting gramr today or dueling him tomorrow if he avoids the noose.

[Io]

Honestly Walt's a town read for me. I like a good deal of their posts and I feel like they are coming from town.
There's also that Gramr's been fencesitting about Walt which is indicative of a scum unsure how to read their ally.
But if I'm wrong about someone it'd be Cage or Walt. Though I don't really see that as a concern as we only need to lynch 2 scum and if Walt is that deep in hiding in the town then I don't really want to risk lynching them out of paranoia and having them flip town.

[Io]

You know, after reading that last page I might change my reads.
I'd be willing to forgo killing gramr immediatly since I'm 99% certain Gramr v Ejj is TvS and Ejj sounded pretty scummy during that last page.

[Io]

Yeah, pretty sure Bujaber-Ejj is a thing.

[Io]

In fact. If Bujaber flips scum today I'm instadueling Ejj so we can end this game sooner.
If he flisp town, I dunno. But I can guarantee is BuJaber flips scum so will Ejj.

[Io]

Actually no, I know what's going on if BuJaber flips town.
It'd have to be Garmr-FAQ as a scum team.
Yeah, pretty sure we can't lose this.

[Io]

And why would I lynch you to see if someone else is scum?-

[Io]

Like lynching the person I find scummier in the TVS is better than the person slightly less scummy.

[Io]

Right, but why is lynching you the better option?
I feel he is more likely at the moment to flip scum so I’d rather advocate for his lynch first.

[Io]

Io, why won't you lynch Bujaber?

I did I was going to follow your plan didn’t I?
I mean lynching him is a necessary step in my plan.

[Io]

Io’s Plan of winning:
Lynch Penguin (already failed but still feel the need to post this)
Lynch BuJaber
If T - lynch Ejj
If S - lynch Garmr
If either flipped town lynch the other.
If game still continues lynch FAQ (if Ejj flipped scum)

[Io]

Because Radiant is townie and Penguin’s not getting lynched.
I mean obviously I’m going to scrap that whole thing is he flips scum, but I don’t think he will.

[Io]

I also probably won’t actially be on today because studying for exams.

[Io]

I want to lynch Io first. I said in my first reads that Io was possibly deepwolf. And, with RC agreeing the slot needs to go I intend to follow through.

VOTE: Io

Wait, so you want to lynch me on the basis that I am too townie to be town?

I also don't understand this post.

Now I'm assuming we have 4 more lynches for the record, and I intend to direct the lion's share of them. So, here's what I propose.
Tomorrow Io should be the lynch. As much as I think they've been by far the most pleasant player in this game, history shows that generally in games like this it's only the one townie who keeps their cool.

If they flip town, that tells us that scum were indeed the ones hard pushing the PP wagon as opposed to divided between the teams.
And how you deal with that is largely up to you: I would strongly recommend flipping PP at this point to to be 100% sure that me and him was TvT then if he's scum, powerlynch down my wagon and if town, lynch the people that you feel dealt with the wagons in ways that suggest TMI. (I'm looking at you, Bujaber)

If they flip scum (which I expect), great!
You will win the game by lynching {Ejjinami, Walt, FA_Q2}

And that just about settles what I have to give the game.

GL GL

If only me and cage were wanting to kill Penguin, then how would me flipping town mean that scum were hard trying to make sure Penguin got killed in the duel?
If anything that would mean scum were wanting to kill Radiant all along.

Also why even lynch Ejj or FAQ if I was scum? I was scum reading them.

VOTE: BuJaber

I'm going to go with what I originality though, and killing BuJaber will solve the game.

[Io]

I'm going to say Nicolas, Shoshin, and Walt are town since I can't see any clear connections from them to any other player indicating they be scum. Plus Nicolas is pretty townie.

I'm unsure about the rest of the players though.

Garmr and FAQ could be a team but I find that unlikely after reading back through Garmr's reasonings for town reading FAQ. It at least feels natural to me.

I think the scum team is Ejj, Penguin, and Bujaber though.

I didn't see Ejj's last minute vote at first, but seeing as that vote was meaningless it looks like just a distancing move so people don't suspect a Ejj-Penguin since Ejj was being heavily pushed by Garmr making him a likely lynch for today and people like me, Cage, and Radiant were skeptical of the undeserved massive amount of town cred Penguin got just for replacing into a duel.
I also still see Garmr v Ejj as TvS and Garmr feels more townie here.

BuJaber's been pretty weird all day, mostly he just seemed to be agreeing with whatever was popular consensus at the moment.
I don't like that he said I was lock scum if Radiant flipped town because I was town reading Radiant and made some possible scenarios for him flipping town or scum. Mostly since he was doing the exact same thing, for one he was extremely confident in a Penguin!town 503, and saying that I had to be scum if Radiant flipped town which was literally the exact logic he was saying I am scum for.

Penguin's been at best a null all day and has had an unprecedented amount of town reads I feel. He's done absolutely nothing and his vote on me just now is weird as it shows he is just blindly following what Radiant said despite admitting that he felt I was town.