Mini Normal 2035 : Duck Mafia Part 1 : GAME OVER

[Reundo]

VOTE: popopopopopopo

That's like 5 too many po's for my taste.

[Reundo]

So there's been like... Zero activity. Come on people. Let's get this pond jumping. No waddlers left behind.

If the only thing you found meaningful enough to comment on was the lack of inactivity, how would you expect others to have something to add to the conversation?

hey guys enough RVS let's Lynch someone

What's the hurry?

Is it really duck's birthday? Happy birthday!

1 week deadline here
We must agree a lynch soon
I think we vote you

VOTE: nonny

Literally took the words right out of my mouth. Good vote.


I'm not sure if Tiphaine understands the difference between playstyle-indicative and allignment-indicative. A lot of players develop a spammy, "I'm super town" playstyle similar to Carcalilly's, and while I'm unfamiliar with her meta I'm gonna bet she probably starts off this way as either alignment. That being said, his vote reads more like a genuine bad take to me. Otoh, I'm less convinced by nonny's push on / question to Carcalilly, since it came after Tiphaine's vote + the question asked was pointless + it also came after Tchill's call for more activity, so it read a lot like a grab for towncred. Not really a fan of Tchill either, but nonny irks me more out of the two.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: nonny

Also, happy belated birthday the worst! Hope it was a good one.

[Reundo]

This assumes that you understand why Tip placed the vote there to begin with. Why assume rather than ask?

I already had a rough idea as to why he was voting Carcalilly through his posts -- he wasn't impressed by her "I'm not scum so unvote me" stance and he seemed to agreed with nonny that he didn't like her saying "hey guys enough RVS let's Lynch someone", for instance -- and those things seem more like concerns with play-style since it felt like she was only half-serious when she made those statements. I guess it wouldn't have hurt to ask, but I had a feeling I know how he'd respond and if I was wrong then he'd naturally be inclined to correct me.

Lynch happy much? We have a week, and your idea is to give up that time and enter day 2 with no content other than 1-2 flips and one wagon to look at? Seems like a waste.

So me voting you == I want you lynched immediately, apparently? I don't know why you feel you're the "end all be all" wagon today, and even if that were true there'd almost certainly be a counter-wagon to you by the end of the day.

Actually though, let's play spot the scum-tell UNVOTE: . Who can tell me why Reundo deserves rope right now?

So is Carcalilly no longer scum to you, or am I just scummier than her? Why aren't you voting me if you feel I deserve rope?

[Reundo]

Reundo's post #47 says "lack of inactivity." This is a mistake that reads to me as a re-typed post. It started as talking about inactivity or lack of activity and was edited badly. That type of editing in regards to a post means he is thinking an awful lot about how it will be received, on a post this early, that inconsequential, that reads as scum to me. VOTE: Reundo

Yeah, I meant to say "lack of activity" there. I do edit my posts occasionally, but I mostly do it to try to get my point across as clearly as possible. I tend to use a lot of weird/wonky phrasing otherwise.

I think its weird reundo called me out specifically just for wanting more activity.

IDK what else there is to talk about.

Doesn't mean i can't ask though.

That was my issue -- if you couldn't find anything else to talk about, then you shouldn't expect others to do so either. Wanting more activity is fine, but calling for more activity while not doing anything to try to remedy the problem yourself is less so.

something feels off about tiphainedeath and reundo. I could of course see them both being town but i don't trust them at the moment.

VOTE: completely trustworthy

Why would you vote someone who hadn't posted since RVS at the time over two players you know you have a bad feeling about?

Reundo seems like town
Carcalilly also seems Town
We should look elsewhere

Do you always post in haikus? Can you give a little more please. Where should we be looking for example?

Considering profii mentioned you in the post right after this I don't see what your concern is. You expressed concern over three players in your post -- why didn't you vote any of them?

VOTE: Profii
Coasting in the form of bleating about activity while adding basically nothing to the discussion.

His reasoning might not be fleshed out, but I disagree that he added "basically nothing" to the discussion. IMO he was one of the bigger content drivers during the start of D1, which is especially significant considering half the player-base didn't bother to post past RVS at the time.


CT's logic behind the nonny vote was decent but the positioning was a bit sketchy. Having nothing else to add is also uncomfortable, but it might just be real life concerns. Dave's ISO is a mixed bag. I'm still looking for certain things from nonny before I'm comfortable unvoting.

[Reundo]

I disagree with your issue regarding activity. You really have no idea why I voted that person?

What specifically do you disagree on? I got the gist of why you voted CT -- his lack of activity, plus possibly the fact there was already a wagon building up on him -- I just think it's a shot in the dark with so many players doing the same thing, especially when you've already expressed concerns about what some players were doing.

same though

Uh this is an odd question but is anyone a vanilla townie

I don't like this question at all.

Anything else you don't like from Carca?

asked for vt peeps
and suggested a no lnych
followed 2 wagons with pretty naked votes

it seems pretty bad to me but idk 6 pages in

For the first two points, I thought they were anti-town, but it's blatantly anti-town in a sense where I don't see why scum would want to openly ask something like that. I also got the impression they were said on impulse, which also doesn't play into it being scummy to me. As for the last point, it's fairly apparent through her ISO why she placed her votes where she did, especially w/regards to Tiphane -- not sure why "naked votes" are particularly scummy. What were you initially town-reading her for?

Something just feels off about profli to me. He initially came out of the gate trying to direct the town into voting Nonny and constantly gave advice as to what the town should do, then he just started asking others where his vote should be placed. Also, 69 seems very odd to me as well.

VOTE: profli

Why would you jump to a new wagon without reassessing your read on nonny? Are you satisfied with her response, do you think she's not as scummy anymore, or is there another reason why you shifted wagons?

Do you always post in haikus? Can you give a little more please. Where should we be looking for example?

Considering profii mentioned you in the post right after this I don't see what your concern is. You expressed concern over three players in your post -- why didn't you vote any of them?

Did not see a need to quote all three just to ask about the weird posting style. He mentioned me but that was it. Otherwise he didn't mention much at all. It was feigning activity so trying to flesh out why.

It was more a response to you asking "Where should we be looking for example?". It seemed like he did mention players to look at -- specifically you and "lurkers" -- after he made the post you quoted, so that part felt weird to me.


I'm not feeling the profii or Tiphaine wagons. I feel their play is more strange/unorthodox than actually scummy. Davsez jumped up a few pegs in towniness for me, CT dropped a few.

[Reundo]

I'll get back to this later tonight.

[Reundo]

No.

[Reundo]

The thing with Flavor's gambit is I can realistically see how such a gambit would help him game solve as town, but like FA_2Q mentioned there was the possibility it would've drawn out a PR, and it's likely they would've been lynched since they would be the only one who claimed to visit profii -- not sure if this is just Flavor not fully thinking this through or if he thought it was unlikely a PR would target profii anyway. The only way saying "no" would've been the optimal play there would be if scum suspected he was gambiting, which they wouldn't have reason to do unless they've seen him gambit as town before. I don't see much reason to distrust Flavor's theory -- there's the possibility that Flavor himself is scum and coached his own buddies to say no, but I'm not going to seriously entertain the idea right now since it doesn't seem that likely imo.

Carca's reaction was weird, and it sounded almost like she missed Flavor's watcher claim entirely, but I'm not really seeing how it's scum-AI. Gamma's initial Flavor vote seemed like a knee-jerk reaction tbh, and the switch onto Carcalilly seemed more based on him rethinking things rather than being influenced by anything in the thread. Not that scum can't think "Oh, this vote was actually a terrible idea, let me switch off real quick", but his switch was definitely not overtly scum-AI, and with regards to his play as a whole I feel he's been fairly involved in the game and doing his part to contribute -- I can't see a clear scum agenda from him. Una seems like the most likely to be scum out of Flavor's pool so far -- it feels like he's just coasting so far, and his content is pretty sub-par even for someone who recently replaced in. Outside of the whole gambit, I'm not getting a good vibe from wilky since his contributions so far have been bare-minumum. I'm still not keen on nonny either -- her posting in RVS was fine since it seemed based on a misunderstanding of the vote count, but I didn't like her comment on profii, and her questions to Carca were just more/less echoing everyone else's concerns, but re-reading her ISO I'm not as confident on my scum-read of her. I might have to take some time to consider this whole gambit a bit more, but for now I'm content with this vote.

VOTE: UnaBombaH

[Reundo]

I want everyone to vote in their next post with a one sentence explanation of why they’re voting who they are voting

Did not notice this prior. But why? Wheres the benefit other than having votes out? Plus didn't work....

It forces people to take a stance via a vote or draws suspicion to them regarding why they didn't do so -- I don't think it was an unreasonable request from him.

290 makes me townread TChill.

I don't see that being a hard post to fake by scum!tchill, and he doesn't lose anything as scum by pointing this out. Why reference this post as a reason to town-read him, exactly?

I don't see FA scum at this point. Voting vengeful townie just gives us more flips and more info, right? I'm for that and would vote there. Otherwise I'm leaning scum on carca currently. Got nothing on Wilky. Not sure I know how to read Flavor (why boon?) but currently below null. Everyone else null or above for now.

Can you explain your reads a bit more? Why scum-leans on Carca and Flavor, specifically?


I've liked Una's posting recently -- his thought process has lined up with mine more often than not. I have a slight TR on CT and the PR claim seems plausible, so I'm inclined to trust his claim. I don't think him staying on the wagon of a PR claim has much significance since profii was never going to be the lynch post-claim anyways. I doubt he'd actually try to push profii after his claim, and it seems more likely he just preferred to find someone else to vote on first before switching off. I don't see the point of lynching Carcalilly unless I think she's scum, which I'm not leaning towards atm. It sounds better to just lynch whoever we'd want Carca to vengekill anyways, and if she is town then we'd most likely be going into D3 with one less townie than usual and even numbers, which isn't desirable imo. I liked FlavorLeaf's gambit and the analysis that came from it, thought I'm not really feeling scum!FA_Q2 at the moment. FA's coming off fairly aggressive, which might just be his playstyle, but I'm not sure what he'd gain from it as scum, and I liked his early probing of me/Tchill D1. Tchill's a dormant null for me -- I'm finding more town pings in some of his off-hand comments than his actual reads/pushes. Nonny's catchup hasn't made me feel better about her -- the "I suck" mentality pings slightly towny, but I'm not sure how the questions she asked are supposed to help her scum-hunt -- seems more like busy work imo. I'd also like to vote wilky, but with him being on V/LA we'd basically have to lynch him without a claim, which is bad on the off-chance he is town -- unless I start feeling better about nonny, I'd rather save wilky for tomorrow. Everyone not mentioned hasn't changed in terms of reads for me.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: nonny

[Reundo]

Rundo I think you are reading my tone or motivation wrong(or I’m wording it wrong). I understand why the request for votes, was more curious about Gamma’s personal motivation and if his goal was met. Which with his latest post adds up.

Well if that was your goal, then you probably should've been more upfront about it. I thought the answer he gave was fairly obvious -- what kind of responses were you expecting from this? Still waiting for the rest of your reply.

This is the obvious place to move. Carca acted too shady earlier, will always be scum read now.

We need to kill one of the lurkers if carca is indeed town.

This takes away 2 potential mislynches for scum if both are town. If carca is scum, which I'm assuming, then that's even better.

Carca doesn't count as a "taking away a potential mislynch" if we're literally just going to lynch her. What's even the point of taking away "potential mislynches for scum"? Wouldn't it be better to just let scum jump on these easy mislynches and rat them out with VCA?

And before people start saying "we should be trying to lynch scum"

That's what I'm trying to do. With every lynch you should weigh every outcome from an objective perspective. What happens if they're scum? Always good news. What happens if they're town? This is important too. Because not every lynch is scum. So you need to be able to weigh the risk/reward of a lynch if you're not almost certain it'll be a scum flip.

I mean, you didn't evaluate "risk/reward" more than "oh, this person's lurking, that seems like a good lynch/veng-kill". Like, sure, I can see the motive behind saving someone who'd be valuable as town for later if you think they're only slightly scummy, but really it's more important to emphasize scum equity over getting rid of people whom you deem useless to town without even considering their alignment.

Fa's hesitance to control her shot makes me worry about him.

What's the point of this? He clearly explained why he didn't think town should control Carca's shot. You could've engaged with him and talked through your thought process, but instead you decided to completely ignore his questions and throw this useless shade at him.


Lynching Carca because she's "likely to be scum" is actually terrible. Like 90% of why people are scum-reading her was because of the weird anti-town posts she made earlier, and no one scum-reading her is even bothering to reconsider her anti-town actions in light of her claiming a role where she'd be much more content to be lynched than normal, or whether softing and fake-claiming a role that would guarantee her lynch in Lylo would even make sense from scum. Lynching Carca for the veng-kill also seems pretty bad -- if Carca's lynched today, flips vengeful, and the veng-kill misses, then we're at Mylo tomorrow with even numbers, and I'm not willing to take that risk just to lynch someone I'm fairly confident is town. Most players seem on board with making wilky the veng-kill -- I say it's better to just lynch him today and leave Carca for later.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wilky

[Reundo]

Reundo threw shade at me that whole post then voted someone else lol.

What's your point here? Is voting you a requirement for "throwing shade at you"? I can point out things I don't like from players without automatically placing them as my #1 pick for scum. There's other players I'd much rather see lynched today that are also much more likely to actually be lynched today.

[Reundo]

Sorry, I was pretty busy today.

Flavor Leaf's most likely town here imo. He'd have to basically have his fake-claim preplanned this entire time -- and crumb his results in a way that would only make sense specifically from a weak role -- while also claiming a role that has little potential to actually pull off a mislynch when compared to something like cop or tracker. It's theoretically possible that he pulls all this off as scum, but there's much better ways he could've pulled it off as scum, and his game-solving as a whole is pretty town-motivated. Una's probably town too, because his thought process is sound overall and I like his energy and enthusiasm when it comes to game-solving.

I'm leaning town on CT too, but then again it would be bizarre for both claimed PRs to still be here today. His gambit wasn't town motivated at all, but his withdrawal of the claim was pretty unprovoked. I also felt that after his doctor claim he got actually got townier for me -- I'd figure if scum!him fake-claimed there he'd be more inclined to sulk the rest of the day and not contribute at all. Something that also stuck out to me was his tendency to reach out to players and make sure they respond to his questions/pushes, and it's hard for me to see why scum would be so inclined to pressure others to engage with them. It's plausible that both CT and Flavor are town here if there's a scum role-blocker, though if there is scum between them I'd definitely lean towards CT because his gambit definitely wasn't as thought-out as Flavor's.

I'm iffy on Tchill. I didn't like his tunnel on Carca, and a lot of his Flavor scum-read relies too much on Burden of Proficiency and paranoia. He seems to only be paying half attention to the game since he apparently can't even keep track of who was night-killed, and honestly it's hard to tell whether he's doing this intentionally or not. Honestly though, I think it's best to just assume he's town for the time being unless the loud player claims a protective. I think there's a decent chance there's a role-blocker, but it seems too much of a gamble to lynch him right now when otherwise he'd pretty much be confirmed town assuming Flavor's telling the truth.

I liked some of dave's comments early in D1, but otherwise there's nothing too memorable he's done. I thought his readslist at the end of D2 was unimpressive. I'm coming around to scum!FA_Q2 -- I don't really like how he came into D3 just commenting on things from the day before and not really reassessing his reads or making any meaningful pushes. Nonny's still my top pick for scum overall. Most of what she's done this game is just sheeping other wagons and not really making any notable pushes herself. I feel she's been mostly coasting this game, and when she does pop in it's heavy on unimpressive questions and light on reads or actual attempts at game-solving. I feel the worst about that slot right now.

Here's how my reads look in a condensed package from town to scum, with Tchill being dependent on whether or not Flavor was role-blocked/protected:

{Flavor, Una, CT}
{dave}
{FA_Q2, Tchill, nonny}

VOTE: nonny

[Reundo]

Also, @mod, I'll also be on V/LA from 10/12 to 10/15 for mostly safety measures. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to post within the time frame, but there's a chance I might miss a day of posting over the weekend.

[Reundo]

Scum is ct/una

Who's town?

He was also analyzing a lot of FA and nonny yesterday, and I took notice of all that and was interested in responses.

He only commented on one post from each... I wouldn't consider that "a lot" of analysis.

I don't think Reundo answered the question in 475 but he's VLA so guess I'll probably be waiting on that.

You linked the wrong post here... I'm pretty sure you're talking about my wilky vote? It was because all of his contributions were sparse and lazy -- I think he only threw out one scum-read and two town-reads the whole game, and they weren't supported by more than a sentence or two. You also said that it "wasn't clear" who I'd rather see lynched over Tchill at the time, but I actually don't see how it's unclear at all, considering I've stated/implied wilky/nonny as scum-reads and tchill as null multiple times. I'm not going to restate my reads every time I vote someone.

@nonny, when you get around to your reread, can you make a readslist? I haven't seen a lot of reads from you, and even less explanation of said reads.

[Reundo]

Do you still SR Tchill btw?

Yeah, to some extent. I think he's more towny in what he says than what he does. I can kind of see some town motivation behind his actions, but I think a lot of his pushes have been anti-town and I feel a lot of his paranoia is fake or exaggerated. The FL visit has the potential to clear Tchill, but there's a lot of reasons why FL could visit Tchill and live assuming he's telling the truth about his role.

I too thought Flavor Leaf's reply was a little shallow but he's my strongest TR. But here's a followup on that topic, I'm curious whether you're taking FL's word for what I've been doing or if you actually know yourself.

I mean, I kind of have a sense of what you're doing now (mostly due to this post itself, not necessarily FL's posts), so I'll probably trust FL on this for now.


A CT/Tchill pair seems pretty unlikely. I don't think Tchill calls CT town during D2 for having a "tough fake claim to get away with", then turns around on D3 and hard busses his partner for not believing his withdrawal. It would be smarter for scum!Tchill to show some doubt on CT's fake-claim during D2 to make the transition into bussing him D3 smoother.

I could see a Tchill/nonny pair though. From Tchill's end, he pretty much mostly ignores nonny D2 and calls her out for lurking but never puts her in his shoot pool, which I believe is something CT mentioned earlier. From nonny's end, she gave a tr of Tchill D2 that I thought was weird, and while there's more engagement with him from her side, Tchill also doesn't reply to the majority of her posts towards him.

[Reundo]

FMPOV I know there's at least one scum between {nonny,CT}, and while CT's gambit still leaves a foul taste in my mouth I think his play has been consistently town since D2. Nonny's catch-up looked towny at first pass, but there's a noticeable lack of content about FA_Q2. Nonny throwing a vote onto davesaz makes sense from a scum!nonny perspective as last-minute distancing too, though I've got to do some digging later to see if the pair makes sense. I don't think lynching davesaz is a good idea though since I think nonny/FA_Q2 are much more likely to flip scum (a Loud mafia role would also be a bit weird, but there's a lot of unconventional roles this game so I wouldn't be too surprised if that is the case). I think Tchill has definitely gotten townier lately, so if I assume that Tchill and CT are both town then nonny and FA_Q2 are confirmed scum to me through the two L-3 wagons today (It might be a bit early to make the call on the CT wagon, but I don't think he's being quick-hammered today either). CT is a common denominator in both wagons, which makes me feel the easier answer is just to assume scum!CT, but really I can't see his play coming from scum for the most part. I don't know if davesaz is the third scum yet, but I guess I'll have time to figure that out later.

[Reundo]

Sorry, I was busy last night. I'll get some posts up tonight.

[Reundo]

I'm having doubts that davesaz is town. At first I thought he leaned town because he'd have to consistently crumb his role, but then I realized if he was a loud mafia role then he'd be forced to claim eventually anyways. With the recent 2-shot roleblocker flip I wouldn't be surprised if there were two 2-shot scum PRs, maybe even 3 but that might be a stretch. I don't think it's useful to try to view the kill from a WIFOM perspective. I could see scum no-killing and hope Flavor targets scum (or maybe even trying to kill Flavor and hoping davesaz overthinks it and tries to save someone else), but there's also the risk of him targeting town and clearing someone, so overall it doesn't seem like the best play for scum.

Dave's entrance into D4 is also really weird. He seems far too eager to explain himself and doesn't give his take on what the heck actually happened if Flavor actually was killed. Also, his convoluted reasoning for painting me as the visit is probably one of the worst things I've read this game, and that's including the bazillion times Tchill couldn't even remember who was alive or in the game (and the saying goes that squares can't fit into circles, so his whole theory was backwards to begin with). It just feels he's finding any opportunity to hop onto the scum!me trolley that's been running around recently.

Regardless of whether dave is scum, I know at least one scum is between {nonny, CT} since nonny was never quick hammered last day phase, and I'm torn for the most part. I'm kind of starting to double-think myself regarding CT. It almost feels like he knows too much about the scum team -- he cited that scum probably had both a roleblocker and a ninja, and they ended up having both. He does consistently push FA_Q2 but he also doesn't vote him, and if he is scum then he'd know that pulling off a nonny lynch would've sealed the game for him, but if the pair was FA/CT, then why wouldn't FA try to help to push it along? The team would seem pretty disorganized, especially considering they had daychat. But then again there's CT whole doctor gambit, and while I could a world where he'd want to do it as town there's no questioning that his doctor claim saved him D2, and as town he should've have prioritized him living over lying about his role and trying to outguess scum. A lot of his play has been consistently towny, but just taking a skim through his last scum game I feel he's more than capable of faking it, though I'd probably have to read it more indepth at a later time.

On the other hand, I feel there's a lot of classic scum distancing between FA_Q2 and nonny. FA hardly mentions nonny at all or even engages with her. Nonny has been consistently town-reading FA_Q2, but there's basically no explanation as to why. Not once in her catch-up post does she reference FA's posts, yet at the end of it she town-reads him because "his posts tend to align with what I see"... but if that was the case, then why wouldn't she include any of this in her catch-up? It just doesn't make any sense to me. On the other hand, she's been consistently dumb-telling this game, and some of the tells would suggest she'd be town (such as her being unsure if there were 3 scum in a 13 player game), but she could easily be playing dumb on purpose. As a whole she's been much too complacent with game-solving.

Dave fake-claiming doctor and killing Flavor is the most straightforward explanation for what happened last night, so that's the one I'm leaning towards the most. Still, if he is fake-claiming, that would mean there's no town protective unless one's hiding, which would be a bit weird but it could make sense with a vig in the game. I just can't make sense of the night kill any other way. I think nonny and CT could both be valid partners with dave, but nonny has more cohesion overall since they both push the same reads for the most part. If I had to call a team right now I'd say nonny/dave/FA, but there's a lot of little things that irk me about CT that bring me doubt.

I know I haven't been pulling my weight this game, and I get why people are scum-reading me. Tchill is my strongest town-read atm and Una is a town-lean, but I'm still trying to resort everyone else for the time being. I probably won't have the time to dedicate to this game until Monday/Tuesday, but I'll try my hardest to keep up.

[Reundo]

Reundo: saying I’m scum becuase I wasn’t quick hammere is an easy out. The most I got to (official vote count wise) was L-3, so where would the quick hammer even come from?

There were 2 people voting you (me and CT) D3. There were 3 scum left (unless there's 2 scum in a 13 player game, which would be really dumb). We needed 5 votes to get a lynch. 2+3=5. 5=5. That's where the quick hammer would come from, assuming you're not scum yourself.

I personally don’t like to just include a post I flat out agree with, it’s lazy and not helpful. Before my catch up I had already reference FA’s post in day 2 (on day 2) that I agreed with. I have not played a 13 player game since hiatus and didn’t think about the set up, that’s also what happened when I thought I was L-1 day one. Read as a gambit if you want but this game is making me feel dumb and inadequate *shrug* I am legitimately trying to do my best and did flake a little previous days becuase it got overwhelming. I regardless do not post every little thing I think, maybe that’s not best practice but that’s me.

Oh, I must've missed that since it was spoiled, but that's literally the only post you referenced as a reason to tr him IIRC. Like, what else did FA post that you felt "aligned with what you saw"? Also, no one's asking you to post "every little thing" you think, but if you felt FA was a town-read during your catch-up I'd expect you to find more of his posts to reference than just the one you found in D2.

Reundo, why is Tchill your highest townread?

His scum-hunting seems pretty genuine for the most part. He flips-flops on his theories a lot, but there's not really much rhyme or reason as to why he does it. Like, he was scum-reading CT all of D3 and the first part of D4 but he switches it to lock-town all on his own -- there's no one that said "well I thought CT might be town" that would influence his thinking, so it seemed like it was just him thinking things over that caused him to switch, which there wouldn't be much reason to do as scum. His frustration towards people not agreeing with his dave read also seems natural coming from town and is probably how I'd react if I were in his situation. There were a few conversations early on with FA_Q2 that would be weird from a chill/FA pair. Going through FA's ISO, I realized there's actually a few awkward things between the two of them such as FA's tr on chill and chill's semi-reluctance to vote FA that I might need to look into later, and I haven't agreed with a lot of tchill's theories this game, but I think the slot's town overall.

[Reundo]

Nonny, I'm finding it hard to believe that you'd town-read me, or at least be on the edge as to whether or not I'm town, yet vote me over someone who you've expressed much more concern over, someone who you also voted during D3. I don't see why you'd be prioritizing lynching me over davesaz. Also, if scum hammered you yesterday we'd be at 4 towns VS 3 mafia N3 and all scum would have to do is pull of a kill, which is pretty much guaranteed considering either dave's the protective or there's no protective at all. I do agree though that we should start voting.

Davesaz is definitely the most likely to flip scum right now. I don't see why scum would intentionally no kill or try to kill Flavor, and he hasn't done much solving this phase other than "Tchill's trying to push a mislynch on me" and "Think outside the box == circle == round == Reundo". I haven't been solving as much as I'd like to this game -- and regrettably it won't happen today as I'll have absolutely no free time -- but to say I haven't tried to sort at all this game is bullshit. A nonny/dave/FA team seems a lot more viable given nonny's vote, but I still want to take the time to think over CT as I don't think he's as conf town as Tchill's making him out to be.

VOTE: davesaz

[Reundo]

Also, if scum hammered you yesterday we'd be at 4 towns VS 3 mafia N3 and all scum would have to do is pull of a kill, which is pretty much guaranteed considering either dave's the protective or there's no protective at all.

So you have inside-knowledge that nonny is town then?

Um, no? The fact that the scenario didn't happen suggests that either scum was already on the nonny wagon or that nonny is scum herself and scum didn't want to bus her (or scum didnt realize they'd have a guarenteed win by hammering, which is unlikely). And it isnt "inside-knowledge" when it can be deduced by anyone paying close enough attention to the game.

[Reundo]

if scum hammered you yesterday we'd be at 4 towns VS 3 mafia N3

This implies that IF nonny would have been hammered by scum, THEN we would have lost over night..

I think you might have slipped?

I was talking to her as if she were town. I forgot to add "assuming your town" in there somewhere. My point was that if she were town then scum could've easily hammered her for the the win assuming CT is town and there arent any surprise PRs. I meant to talk to her more from an ambigous POV, so I guess it is a slip in that sense.

[Reundo]

CT and Tchill are confirmed town for not voting me. Nonny is confirmed scum to me since CT is confirmed town (since scum never hammered her last day phase) unless scum for some reason had a reason not to quick-hammer, but even then it would've made sense to at least push on her since she was the one with the most votes at the time. So the team from my perspective is just nonny/davesaz or nonny/Una, and I feel with Una's consistent effort at gamesolving and davesaz's consistent lack of effort the pair definitely leans towards the former.

I'm motion detector.

I probably should've claimed towards the start of today, but I was still on the fence towards whether the scum on nonny's wagon was CT or nonny herself and I thought it'd be cheeky to somehow force her to claim and call her out if her claims contradict mine, but as the day went on I realized that holding back my claim would only make it more fishy when I actually do come out. I know we're running close to deadline, and I'm sorry to have put it out so late, so I'll go ahead and get the obvious questions out of the way.

My N1 target was Tchill, and I didn't detect any motion.

I checked him because he was one of my null reads and I read somewhere it was better to check null reads rather than scum reads because you're more likely to learn something new, or something along those lines. I thought the lack of motion meant he had to be VT or a goon, which didn't really change my reads much, and since FA flipped a two-shot not even that remained true, so that result was ultimately rubbish.

My N2 target was Una, and I did detect motion around him.

I checked him because a few of his posts during D2 rubbed me the wrong way. I was hoping to track a scum kill basically, and my line of thinking was that if Una was scum he'd definitely be the one to do the night kill since he was universally town-read. I got a bit excited when I saw my result, but then when Gamma flipped non-consecutive watcher I realized there was a decent chance Gamma didn't watch profii N1 and decided to watch Una N2 instead. With the possibility of scum PRs and maybe even another town PR I realized it probably wasn't worth outing myself for simply a maybe-guilty, and Una's D2 behavior was pretty consistently towny.

My N3 target was nonny, and I detected motion around her as well.

I thought it was best to check either her or CT since at least one of them was confirmed scum from the nonny wagon. The presence of motion suggested she was scum at first since I thought there was no way scum would target her with anything, but then I thought that maybe they'd want to rolecop her to make sure she isn't a power role, and honestly a lot of her "I'm trying my best" attitude made me hesitant about her alignment, and I still get a yucky feeling whenever I think about the CT wagon, but now since CT didn't hammer me the most logical conclusion is that she's either another scum PR or performed the kill.

I did crumb my first two results (I didn't crumb last night's result), but to be completely honest I did it awfully. My initial goal was to talk about my results using synonyms for movement or lack of movements and kind of crumb that throughout the day, but I didn't know how to word it properly and I'd always forgot about it whenever I meant to post. I did make sure to have one crumb per result, but looking back on it I have no idea how anyone was supposed to catch these if I were to flip.

Tchill's a

dormant

null for me

This is my first crumb, if you could call it that. Dormant==no movement in my mind, and I thought it was a weird enough word choice that it would stand out if someone were to go through my ISO. It was squished in one of my walls, however, and I should've made more of an attempt to crumb than just a single word.

Una's probably town too, because his thought process is sound overall and I like his

energy and enthusiasm

when it comes to game-solving.

This is my second crumb. "Energy" and "enthusiasm" were supposed to convey movement, though in hindsight that probably wasn't obvious at all.

Again, I'm sorry for putting it out so late. I was getting kind of anxious and I'm not very familiar with when the appropriate time to claim is since this is literally my first time rolling PR (unless a Town Backup that never activated counts...), but yeah I should've claimed a lot earlier. The obvious choice for lynch today is nonny, but I realize it's literally only obvious for me since I'm the only one who knows she's confirmed scum and I know people are still suspicious of me. I'd optimally like to save davesaz and Una for later, but I think there's little chance dave's flipping town considering A)Scum would have to no-kill or intentionally kill someone who's likely to be saved AND B)Dave pretty much did nothing this day phase but defend himself way more than was necessary and basically only push on Tchill for scum-reading him. Still, it's technically possible for davesaz to be town and for scum to no kill, no matter how rare that is, but since nonny basically has to be scum she'd be my priority lynch for today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: nonny

[Reundo]

So, apparently my N3 result was wrong. It turns out I actually didn't detect any motion around nonny N3. I don't think this actually changes much though -- nonny was conf scum to me for not being quick-hammered, not the night actions persay. Actually, this makes a FA/nonny/dave team even more plausible to me since it would be weird to have three scum PRs and I couldn't really see nonny making the night kill, so it would make sense if scum had two 2-shot PRs with nonny being the goon.

I don't get how we've just gotten a time extension and the first thing Una does is decide to rush my lynch because he's already decided my claim is bullshit without waiting to hear what everyone else has to say on it. We still haven't gotten input from CT and dave, which is especially important in CT's case since he doesn't seem like a likely mislynch for scum anymore and could very well die tomorrow. I have no idea why he thinks scum would have a Strongman considering there's only at most one protective if dave really is town, and only a two shot for that matter -- it would pretty much be worthless for scum to have a role that only counters 1/2 a protective role at best.

I think a nonny/Una team would be kind of dumb, because I see no reason why they'd want to push me over dave considering they'd win with a lynch either way, especially after my claim. Una/davesaz would make some sense given how strongly he's defended davesaz and his heavy tunneling on me, but for that to work there'd have to be a reason why they wouldn't quick-hammer nonny yesterday considering CT's conf town to me, and there's a post Una made earlier that basically said "either me/nonny/CT is scum or scum are bad at coordinating hammers", which suggest scum!him would have no reason not to hammer town!nonny.

I'm fine with a davesaz lynch today. I wanted a nonny lynch today since I know for sure she's scum, but I didn't factor in that people probably wouldn't be in the same boat as me. I don't really see the team not being nonny/davesav/FA anyhow. The problem is that I don't think we're going to be able to pull off a davesaz lynch since it's clear that no one on my wagon is going to switch over. It seems like either I'm going to be the lynch or we're just going to no-lynch.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: davesaz

[Reundo]

Reundo, why did you mistakenly think you saw motion around Nonny when you didn't? Also, why did you not crumb your result from night 3?

My initial result was wrong. As to why I didn't crumb my N3 result, I kind of meant to earlier in the day but just forgot about it. It wasn't as pressing an issue to me as the day went by since there was very little chance I was going to get night-killed. I would've crumbed towards the end of day regardless if I didn't just come out and claim instead.

Dave's play makes a lot of sense from scum. Since he's a loud role, he would have known he'd be forced to fake claim eventually, and he can't fake his results since, well, he's loud, so he started crumbing his doctor fake-claim early. When CT came out with his gambit davesaz had absolutely no reason to suspect he was lying, and that if he counter-claimed there and CT flipped even doctor then he'd 100% be the next lynch, so at that point he was restricted to only roles that could plausibly coexist with an even doctor. He couldn't claim non-consecutive because that doesn't gel well with even doctor, he couldn't claim odd night because he'd have no excuse for not saving profii N1, and he couldn't claim 1-shot because that would just be dumb. I'm sure he's at least a two shot ~something~, or playing down his shots at the very least, which would mesh nicely with FA's flip.

Scum couldn't just leave Flavor alive. For one, he was practically confirmed town himself, due to the fact that pretty much no one was suspecting him towards the end of D3. If he tried to target town and succeeded, that meant he could confirm another townie this day phase. Since Flavor's crumb last day phase was ambiguous, scum also had the opportunity to kill him and morph his target into whatever they want it to be, which is exactly what happened when davesaz tried to push his convoluted theory that I was visited last night. The risk of leaving Flavor alive was just too great, regardless of how suspicious it made davesaz look in the aftermath. Dave could have potentially claimed he holstered his shot to try to out-WIFOM scum, but he probably thought it was more believable to push a no-kill / Flavor-targeted-scum theory instead.

Night actions aside, let's just look at his actual play. 80% of what he's done this day phase is just defending himself -- he isn't trying to actively hunt out scum, he just cares that the lynch isn't him today. The rest of the 20% is him pushing me as Flavor's visit for some dumb reasons and claiming that Tchill is pushing him as a mislynch because he apparently knows he'd be good bait -- this is literally the only game-solving outside of himself he's done today. And at the end of it all he votes me... why exactly? Why would he just blank vote without elaborating on himself?

D3 he practically doesn't push anyone at all. He like reacts to one statement each from me/tchill/FA and never actually votes anyone himself -- he does a little followup with me but it doesn't really go anywhere.

D2 he again only responds to a handful of posts, and the posts he responds to doesn't gel with his actual readslist. He says that FA makes a good point yet lists him as "weak scum", he says he can't understand why I voted wilky and lists me as "scummy and lurking", and he says that nonny could be "scum trying to check whether it's safe or not to lie" yet lists her as just "lurker". Only his read of me vaguely supports his actual read, but his only foundation is that one post alone and he doesn't do anything else to try to push me as a scum-read. As it's also been pointed out, he has no reason to list wilky and nonny as his venge-kills when he found me/FA more scummy than nonny through his reads-list.

D1 was his best day, but not by much. His push on profii was pretty much the only meaningful push he made the entire game, and the only one where he cared enough to actually vote who he found suspicious and actually case him, but its also scattered with a lot of one-off comments that don't really go anywhere or produce anything meaningful. There was also a weird post he made calling out Tiphaine for his push on profii and said that if profii was town then Tiphaine would be "a good candidate for me sheeping me", which feels really weird and just looks like him setting up his next mislynch for tomorrow, while also giving him a good excuse to jump ship if the profii wagon died down considering Tiphaine was the next-viable wagon that day.

[Reundo]

TL;DR: The simplest explanation for what happened N3 was that Flavor wasn't actually saved and that scum!dave killed him. Anything else produces a whole lot of WIFOM, and it takes a lot more work to explain why scum intentionally killed someone they know would be saved or intentionally no-killed. Is it possible that scum no-killed or tried to kill Flavor regardless of the doc claim? Yes, of course it is, but then what would explain his behavior this day phase? Why would town!dave spend the majority of today trying to clear his name instead of actually trying to hunt scum? The only effort he put forward this game was his profii push D1 and his flimsy readslist D2. Beyond that, he's commented on a lot of posts and tried to look like he was game-solving, but he never actually re-assessed his reads, and other than the profii vote all of his votes have happened after said wagon already picked up enough steam. Trying to clear his name through WIFOM is only half of the battle -- trying to explain the night-kill AND why dave hasn't cared much about game-solving past D1 is just fighting an uphill battle. It's painfully clear that davesaz's just scum here.

[Reundo]

Reundo: if you’ve suspected me since day 1 why wasn’t I your night 1 target?

I explained this partially in my claim post, but I followed the general investigative strategy of targeting null-reads instead of scum-reads. I also didn't think you were likely to make the night-kill since there was a lot of suspicion around you, so a no-result would tell me a lot less than it normally would. If I detected motion around you, it would make it more likely you'd be a scum PR, but it also wouldn't be a hard guilty since there's a decent chance another PR would've targeted you that night, so it basically wouldn't change my read on you either way. Tchill was a better check for me since he was someone I was undecided on, and it'd be more likely I'd learn something new from my result, especially if I'd gotten a "detected motion" result since it would've suggested he was a town/scum PR or made the scum kill (or was targeted, but I didn't think it was that likely all things considered).

Nonny, can you explain why I'm more likely to flip scum than davesaz at this point?

[Reundo]

Reundo, I still think your claim is bs. Also, there was not as much suspicion on me day 1 as you are saying, I could see that being your reasoning day 2 but not day 1. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the posted mod error followed by your retraction on seeing motion around me. But that’s it. Your conviction that I’m scum regardless of your claimed results is faulty, what’s the point of having “results” if your just explaining them away.

Yeah, there was a lot more suspicion around you D2, I think I was misremembering what happened D1. But considering you were the only significant wagon of D1 that wasn't confirmed town (besides CT, but you two can't be partners anyways due to today's wagons), it still stands that your partners would want anyone but you performing the night-kill. And the reason why you're scum regardless of the claimed results is because it wasn't even based on the results in the first place. On D3 me + CT were voting you, and with 5 needed to lynch a 3-man scum team could've easily hammered you if you were town. If you are town and were quick-hammered then all scum needed to do was pull off one more kill and it'd be 3 scum VS 3 town, which means scum would win. The only thing they need to be afraid of is a protective, and considering we've been through two doc claims with no counter-claims that's something they don't need to take into account. I know I'm town, and I know CT's town because he didn't hammer me, so the only reason that I can think of why you weren't quick-hammered D3 is that you're scum yourself. That's why from my perspective you have to be scum, and if you want to convince me you're town you're going to have to paint me a picture where it would reasonable for scum NOT to quick-hammer you D2 and win the game right then and there -- even if davesaz somehow was the doctor they'd just kill him and call it a day.

At this point I am willing to hammer Dave purely to end the day, I’m 75/25 on him being scum at this stage. How hard tchill is pushing is what’s gross to me though.

OK, but you think dave is most likely scum too and dave/Tchill is impossible since I wasn't hammered, so I don't get what's your point here.

[Reundo]

Mmm... I was planning to quick vote nonny today, but alas. My N4 target was Una, and I detected motion around him. I was hoping for an innocent since it'll prove there was no way he'd make the kill unless there were two ninjas (extremely unlikely), but this complicates things a lot. This is actually more revealing than I initially realized since I only found out after I got the result and skimmed through the Normal guidelines that a mafia member can't kill AND perform an additional night action in the same night. That means the only world in which nonny is a scum PR (thus killing Tchill and targeting Una) in my case is if she has a multitasking modifier, which is pretty specific and uncommon in its own right. And the question begs that if she is a scum PR then why wouldn't she target anyone N3? I can't think of a reason why she'd holster her shot there.

My N2 action also makes a lot of sense in the context of scum!Una. We know that dave targeted Flavor, and it seemed like FA probably roleblocked him as well (it was unlikely FA would've targeted Una anyways due to one of his comments he made earlier). That means the only PR that could've targeted him was Gamma, but that would imply that A)He didn't check anyone N1, which I guess has its pros and cons and B)That he checked a well-townread player over a claimed PR, which seems considerably less likely to me.

I feel that FA/dave/Una also has more synergy than FA/dave/nonny. FA feels like the type who would distance from both of their partners -- I thought it was a little weird how he'd shade dave yet hardly mention nonny at all. By contrast, he makes sure to mention Una multiple times through his ISO, and a lot of the things he points out as "scummy" from Una don't even make sense. It feels like he was just forcing a scum-read, prioritizing distancing himself from his partner over reading him honestly. I always had a tinkling that when he mentioned that CT/Una was the scum team that one of them were scum. Davesaz also makes it a point to reference Una's posts as well, except this time to push him as town. Some of the interactions between Una and davesaz are wonky, but otherwise I feel it makes sense for the scum team to collectively mention each other / distance than for davesaz an FA to decide to distance directly while both ignoring nonny completely for the most part.

Nonny also had some shreds of towniness that I looked over / brushed off in the past. I thought her moments of town-reading me D3 were off, but I always excused it as scum!her trying to get me off of her by getting on my side when most of the town was scum-reading me. I thought her D3 vote on davesaz was distancing at first, but she didn't really have much reason to distance there, and double down when Flavor mentioned a team of me/davesaz/nonny. A lot of things in her ISO still bug me, most notably why she voted me over davesaz despite him being her D2 vote, but it's definitely not impossible for me to view her as town here.

I think scum didn't quick-hammer nonny D3. It's something that I found hard to believe at first, but with how inactive scum have been (and how dave has had long stretches of time where he literally couldn't post IIRC) I don't think it's out of the ball park. There's also the fact that scum!nonny would've 100% won D4 if she just waited a few hours. CT literally said he'd hammer if both Una and nonny decided not to jump off my wagon, and it's highly unlikely Una would've changed his mind at the last second, yet instead she decided to hammer her own partner apparently? I'm not really buying it. I guess it'll make sense if she just didn't read that post, but that would've been a pretty big mistake on her part, whereas I could see why a 3-scum quickhammer would be hard to orchestrate, especially considering dave's inactivity was IRL rather than mere lurking if he's to be believed.

There's some room for nonny to be scum FMPOV, but that would require her to have a multitasking modifier AND decide to save her shot for N4 instead of N3 for some reason AND miss the opportunity to hammer me for the win D4... it'll require jumping through a lot of hoops and hurdles. I couldn't see anything but scum!nonny before today, but from last night's check I feel like a lot of the pieces are finally coming together. A lot of things still irk me about her ISO, especially regarding her reads/behavior towards FA and dave, but I don't think the night actions or the hammer on dave would make sense from scum!nonny. That would mean scum missed a big opportunity for a game-winning hammer D3, especially considering how long nonny was in quick-hammer range, but that's more plausible then nonny hammering davesaz when it was clear CT was going to inevitably hammer me anyways. I find some of the conversations between davesaz and Una weird from a scum pairing, but that's pretty much the only thing giving me pause w/regards to a FA/dave/Una team.

The last scum is most likely Una at this point imo, but there's still a few things I'd like to think over first. I intend to try to use the full stretch of our deadline though, so if anyone has any questions/comments/concerns about my train of thought or about my role or whatever feel free to hmu.

[Reundo]

So, there's a whole lot of bs in this recent string of posts that I need to clear up.

If I wanted to WIFOM it up, I'd simply say that scum!Una would've done at least two things completely different this game.
1) Not leave Boon alive for any more than a night (at max)
2) I would've bussed dave in a hearbeat yesterday.
I have a vast history of playing with/against Boon on site, and I have a solid trackrecord of bussing.
If I really cared about appearences (=was scum), I would've bussed dave harder than a sloth crossing a motorway.
We would be in this exactly same situation, but none of you would've even seen Chill soft any suspicions towards me.
Instead I went the way harder route and risked the whole game by going against reason in a situation where I had absolutely no reason to..? Nope.

Scum!Una certainly doesn't do either of these things. There's almost no way profii isn't the night kill N1 since he claimed PR, even if he was a novice and it wouldn't activate N1. By D2 Flavor was town-reading Una, so he wouldn't post a big enough threat to kill N2, especially with a roleblocker on hand, and him being alive would naturally cause paranoia to rise all things considered. For the second point, scum!Una knows that a lynch on me would win him the game, and he only needed one of Tchill/CT to swing over for that to happen (which almost did happen before nonny popped in). Him not bussing also wouldn't affect "appearences" considering how heavy busing is emphasized in this meta. Case in point is this game itself: Una hard defended scum yet no one even bothered to give it a second thought. If he pulled off a lynch on me yesterday, then that's great, but if he hard pushed me and flopped then he'd still garner little suspicion since, well, why would scum do something so obviously scummy? It's using WIFOM to cover up the simple fact that lynching me would've won him the game yesterday and lynching davesaz would've taken him one step backwards, and if that doesn't have

I'm uninformed here, and got dragged down by my pride and paranoia yesterday.
If you want to make an educated vote, use some time towards my ISO and you see I have had 0 agenda this game.
You'll see I was calling FA and reundo scum early enough (as well as that Vengeshot-pool.. )
I do not need to "case" scum!reundo here - that has been made multiple times already!

It's obviously not enough to merely "call someone scum". Scum actually call each other scum all the time -- the difference is that they rarely ever vote them. And Una actually liked a few of FA's posts early on and thought they promoted a "towny mindset". And if he was confident enough in scum!FA that he'd put him in his vengeshot-pool then he should've been pushing on him early D3, yet instead he was focused on pushing CT -- he was toying with the possibility of both CT/Tchill and CT/FA, which gave him the perfect excuse to push for a CT lynch (though he was considering CT/Tchill more heavily, which is significant considering they're both town). He only ends up joining the FA lynch when it's clear the lynch isn't going to go any other way, yet he was definitely pushing FA the least when compared to CT/Tchill. Una certainly isn't unique in this -- I was town-reading FA for a while too and didn't push him much during D3 either -- but he is playing up the extent to which he apparently scum-read FA. And to say he has "0 agenda" is laughable. D3 he was mostly pushing CT/Tchill instead of FA, who flipped scum. D4 he hard pushed me and gave petty excuses for not voting dave, who also flipped scum. Town end up defending scum and lynching town a lot, but to say there'd be absolutely no scum motive behind driving the lynch away from scum is just laughable.

It felt like he was finally making the effort to push for a win, and I usually spot his scumagendas better than anyone. There are only a few players I can really accurately "soulread" on this site, and Chill has been one of them. Well, I have to admit now, that my read towards him here was shamefully forced and affected by other players actions and reads. This lead to a dead-end of convoluted readpatterns and circular logic, and to be fair, Chill wasn't very easy to reason with yesterday either..
..but yeah, I failed yesterday. We can discuss that aftergame.

This is kind of out of order, but I found it important to put this last. Una's applying the same logic for why he scum-read Tchill and using it to explain why he apparently had no scum motive this game. It makes absolutely no sense. If we assume that Una is actually town here, that meant he would've thought that my alignment was likely scum, and by pushing davesaz instead of me was equivalent to pushing a lynch on town instead his scum-buddy... This is EXACTLY what Una did from my perspective when he hard pushed on me instead of davesaz. They were both passionate about lynching who they wanted D3 -- the difference was that Tchill almost always focused on probability and likely scenarios, yet Una always pushed on possibility and relied on scenarios that could've possibly explained why davesaz is town without considering their likeliness.

[Reundo]

I have a vast history of playing with/against Boon on site, and I have a solid trackrecord of bussing.

This deserves it's own post because it's honestly quite hilarious and revealing. I remembered reading a game in the past where he specifically didn't bus, and it was memorable because I remembered there was talk in the dead chat that he was likely scum specifically because of that, so I actually went digging a bit through his past scum games.

Go through these scum games from Una and look through the mod ISO and Ctrl+F "lynched" and look for the mafia lynches (or alternitavely search "lynched mafia" in the thread and try to find it through there) and count how many of the scum lynches he's actually on.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76388 (0/2)
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76139 (0/2)
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=76149 (0/2)
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=74257 (both scum survived to endgame)
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=75428 (1/2)

This is almost every scum game from late 2017 he's had that isn't a Newbie, and he only bussed his partner ONCE. There's a possibility I could've missed a few games if they didn't release the mafia PT since I wasn't going to go through each and every one of his games, but this shows that, if anything, he actually has a consistent history of NOT bussing his partner. Even if there potentially were stashed away games where he bussed all his partners, he can't conceal the fact that he's had multiple scum games where he didn't bus either of his partners. This actually could potentially point to town!Una since he bussed FA this game (if he didn't straight up lie about his busing record, that is), but it was clear the lynch was going to be FA that day since not many people were hopping onto his CT/Tchill theory, whereas during D4 there was a good chance he'd get me lynched today if he pushed hard enough, so bussing davesaz in that scenario would be unoptimal, and it coincides with his meta of not busing. I have no idea what Una hoped to gain through lying about his busing record... maybe just hoping nobody actually goes and checks?

[Reundo]

My N4 target was Una, and I detected motion around him. I was hoping for an innocent since it'll prove there was no way he'd make the kill unless there were two ninjas (extremely unlikely), but this complicates things a lot.

I know this is fake and therefore hard to make seem real...but this makes no sense from town!reundo PoV.
If your main suspicion was going towards nonny, you'd check there 100% of the time for the guilty.
Your claimed role doesn't give out hard guilties until this late to the game, and somehow you decided to not check your #1 suspect? Seems legit.
From your uninformed perspective, CT could still be scum.
So getting an inno on one slot is never as valuable as getting a guilty.
But hey, this does make sense from your PoV, since you are scum.
You saw one more way out when me and Chill started to throw down yesterday, and decided to bank it all on a faked guilty.

This is actually wrong, and I'm sad to see it echoed by others in this thread. D4 I knew CT was conf-town because he didn't hammer me -- I even said this in the very first paragraph of my claim post. So literally the only scenario in which getting a "no motion" result on someone would NOT clear them from my perspective is if there were two ninjas. I wasn't about to bank this game on scum having two ninjas -- that would just be way too OP -- and while the possibility of there being a multitasking PR is certainly low it definitely isn't impossible for scum to have three 2-shot PRs here, and considering both flipped scum have modifiers it would make sense for the third one to have one as well. It was 100% the best play for me to aim for a "no motion" result here considering I already knew CT was town.

The last scum is most likely Una at this point imo, but there's still a few things I'd like to think over first. I intend to try to use the full stretch of our deadline though, so if anyone has any questions/comments/concerns about my train of thought or about my role or whatever feel free to hmu.

..and especially this is just..wrong.
If you really had a guilty on me, you'd KNOW I am scum.
No need to not vote, or play the "politics".
You are trying to please nonny and CT here, instead of being true to your claimed role and alignment..

It wasn't a hard guilty on Una. Like I said in the first post this day phase, I was considering whether or not nonny could've been a multi-tasking scum role. I didn't think it was very likely, but it certainly wasn't impossible. I wanted some time to make sure I wasn't missing something major and didn't really see the point in voting right away. If I wanted to please nonny especially I would've just hard cleared her immediately by voting Una. Leaving open the possibility of "well, maybe nonny could still be scum here" would do the exact opposite of that.

[Reundo]

Anyone else think Chill was a weird night kill from scum? Scum!una would have left Tchill because his hard push was working against him, he was looking like possible scum. Even with his push being justified I could see a push to mislynch him going through.

You thought Tchill had a chance of being mislynched after hard pushing davesaz from completely out of the blue? CT and Tchill were both impossible lynches after the davesaz flip, because they'd have absolutely zero reason not to hammer me. Tchill started growing suspicious of Una towards the end of D4, and it also wasn't clear what his read of me was since Tchill did admit he liked some of my points. Scum!Una's goal today is to get me lynched, and Tchill is a roadblock towards his goal for both of those reasons. It's the best kill for Una since it has the best chance of getting me lynched today, while simultaneously being the worst kill for scum!me since I'd be getting rid of a potential ally.

Also, I think that Una made a post where they pointed out what the lack of hammering meant at some point in day 3, so I believe they probably would have tried really hard to lynch Nonny for the win if they had been scum. It's just hard to believe your story Reundo.

I think they had a better chance of lynching you that day considering you just withdrew your doc claim. Iirc me and Flavor were the only ones really town-reading you that day, whereas with nonny nobody was really talking that much about scum-reading her or lynching her, at least not to the same extent as you were.

I'm Vanilla, obv.
Motion Detector would make very little sense with a LOUD and a NINJA anyway..
The other they wouldn't even detect, and the other makes noise anyway, so..poor fakeclaim.

Literally the same things could be said about a Consecutive Watcher yet that role exists in this game too.

[Reundo]

*non-consecutive watcher

[Reundo]

The night actions already work against the idea of scum!nonny, but Una's latest posts are drenched with a lot of AtE ("don't let paranoia get the best of you", "I have had 0 agenda this game", "I'm uniformed here") and there's a lot of sketchy things he does to try to clear his name, like going so far as to lie about his own busing record. These are just not things a townie does, and I'm not going to bank the game on scum!nonny being multitasking with all that's happened this phase.

VOTE: UnaBombaH

[Reundo]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=76149 (0/2)

Went back to double-check and this should actually be (0/1) since there was only two scum that game. Everything else is correct, though.

[Reundo]

If I wanted to WIFOM it up, I'd simply say that scum!Una would've done at least two things completely different this game.
1) Not leave Boon alive for any more than a night (at max)
2) I would've bussed dave in a hearbeat yesterday.
I have a vast history of playing with/against Boon on site, and I have a solid trackrecord of bussing.
If I really cared about appearences (=was scum), I would've bussed dave harder than a sloth crossing a motorway.
We would be in this exactly same situation, but none of you would've even seen Chill soft any suspicions towards me.
Instead I went the way harder route and risked the whole game by going against reason in a situation where I had absolutely no reason to..? Nope.

Scum!Una certainly doesn't do either of these things. There's almost no way profii isn't the night kill N1 since he claimed PR, even if he was a novice and it wouldn't activate N1. By D2 Flavor was town-reading Una, so he wouldn't post a big enough threat to kill N2, especially with a roleblocker on hand, and him being alive would naturally cause paranoia to rise all things considered. For the second point, scum!Una knows that a lynch on me would win him the game, and he only needed one of Tchill/CT to swing over for that to happen (which almost did happen before nonny popped in). Him not bussing also wouldn't affect "appearences" considering how heavy busing is emphasized in this meta. Case in point is this game itself: Una hard defended scum yet no one even bothered to give it a second thought. If he pulled off a lynch on me yesterday, then that's great, but if he hard pushed me and flopped then he'd still garner little suspicion since, well, why would scum do something so obviously scummy? It's using WIFOM to cover up the simple fact that lynching me would've won him the game yesterday and lynching davesaz would've taken him one step backwards, and if that doesn't haveIt's using WIFOM to cover up the simple fact that lynching me would've won him the game yesterday and lynching davesaz would've taken him one step backwards, and if that doesn't have

scum motive then I don't know what does.

EBWOP. I don't know how that last part got cut out.

[Reundo]

Interesting. But you wrote off your result on Una day 2 because you thought gamma targeted him too. So now you’re saying they just performed the night kills.

That was my N2 result, so I couldn't have known that D2. During D3 itself I kept it in the back of my mind but I didn't pay too much attention to it since there's a possibility either Gamma watched him or there were more PRs in hiding, scum or otherwise. But yeah, since I tracked motion around him both N2 and N4 it's less likely he's being targeted and more likely he's doing the targeting himself. Post-FA flip I thought for sure they'd just have FA do all the killing since he's a ninja, but since FA couldn't kill and RB simultaneously I could see why they'd pass the kill to Una to let FA roleblock, especially since there was hardly any suspicion on Una at the time.

[Reundo]

ASDIFOZXCOJIVWOEFWERO

I was just writing up a post.

I don't think the lynch was going to be anybody but me today anyways, and regardless which of nonny/Una is scum they both should've won the game already. The lack of quick-hammer was not going to be easy to explain away anyways, and on the off chance nonny is scum (i.e. she has literally the only modifier that would indict her) Una wasn't going to vote anywhere but me regardless.

[Reundo]

GG scum.

I think I did pretty well with nightplay all things considered. I literally had no idea how to use Motion Detector optimally, and it didn't help that there wasn't any play advice on the wiki. I'm glad I managed to catch Una's kill N2, even if I didn't really do anything with it until I was on my lynchbed. Forcing a mass-claim was always in the back of my mind but I was afraid it would rub people the wrong way and get me scum-read, but yeah not doing that from like D3 even was definitely a big mistake. Claiming earlier in general probably would've helped a lot with my credibility as a whole.

Getting lynched was disappointing but I definitely can't blame town. I myself was sunk into the "scum has to be between {me/nonny/CT}" theory for a long time too, and it wasn't until I got a literal guilty that I began to think otherwise. Honestly I still have no idea how scum didn't manage to quick hammer nonny (unless they intentionally didn't, which would actually make me pretty salty ngl). In an ideal world they would've quick-hammered as soon as CT voted, so I can't really be too mad at a scum win here.

Probably my biggest regret this game was my lack of activity overall. I had a lot less time for posting than I initiated, but honestly even when I did have time to post I didn't usually have the motivation to do so. At some point it became less something I wanted to do and more something I felt obligated to do, and I feel that kind of hampered my performance as a whole. I didn't want to replace-out, but in hindsight maybe I should've done so. At any rate, I don't think I'm going to sign up for any new games for a while and see if I can come back more energized.

The ducks did a pretty good job at modding, and I thought the flavor was adorable. I remember when I claimed and saw the thread lock my heart stopped because I thought I'd done something wrong. I thought the mod error was handled pretty well overall. I was worried it'd spew me town too much since that wouldn't be fair too fair to scum, but that didn't turn out to be an issue at all.

Special mentions go to Flavor for calling out 2/3 of the scum team, Tchill for the great davesaz push at the end of D4, and Una for his obv-town performance overall. Thanks to the ducks for modding, and thanks to everyone else for being a good sport.

[Reundo]

I didn't even think about no lynching tbh. I'm pretty sure town would've been forced to lynch anyhow.