Open 737: Stack the Deck (Game Over)

[ofrhz]

VOTE COUNT 3.11

Alonzo (0):

Performer (0):

ruru (0):

BuJaber (3):

Irrelephant11, skitter30, Alonzo

(L-2)

Enigma (1):

BuJaber

Irrelephant11 (0):

skitter30 (0):

Korina (0):

No Kill (0):

Not Voting (4):

Enigma, Korina, ruru, Performer

With

8

alive, it takes

5

to kill.
Day 3 ends in (expired on 2018-10-16 07:30:00)

Other:

- skitter30 V/LA Fridays and Saturdays

[Performer]

@alonzo ok thank you for the wall post.

If you (or anyone else) want to , you guys can see exactly how my scum play is in these games:
viewtopic.php?t=76388&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go
viewtopic.php?t=76697&f=50&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[Alonzo]

Wheres your head at now performer?

Close to placing a vote?

[BuJaber]

Still not liking the magical addition of me into his sr list with irrelephant and me as bujaber's sr. No explanation at all after scrolling through his more recent posts. Intent to vote bujaber, but I want to hear from alonz & enigma first.

What are you talking about?

You guys didn't magically appear in my scumreads.

Tw was my hypo inno so I had to pretend I townread him. When we massclaimed this was not needed at all. Same with alonzo. If he hadn't claimed PR I'd be pushing for his lynch right now, but he did and we can easily confirm his alignment by him getting killed tonight if ruru is lying or tomorrow if ruru isn't lying.

Phantismo's slot was always in my scumreads anyway.

You say you're reading but you are either incredibly confused or are scum pretending to be new/confused.

[BuJaber]

I don't like phantismo's progression on my slot. Like you had a lot invested in sorting tw/ruru but then you started to really commit yourself to this idea of me triggering tw's change of attitude and using that to connect me to him and scumread me for it..

Even if that were true and me saying that flipped switch in his head I don't see how it conmects me to him. If you go ahead and lynch me and I flip town how would you read performer?

Like this case compared to your gamma town case is less clearly thought out and presented rather poorly and it feels lile you just want to lynch me for the hell of it when there is a perfectly good case on enigma that you yourself have also brought up.

[ruru]

mm...

performer still probably town, but I still want to drag out the day

[Irrelephant11]

I don't like phantismo's progression on my slot. Like you had a lot invested in sorting tw/ruru but then you started to really commit yourself to this idea of me triggering tw's change of attitude and using that to connect me to him and scumread me for it..

Even if that were true and me saying that flipped switch in his head I don't see how it conmects me to him. If you go ahead and lynch me and I flip town how would you read performer?

Like this case compared to your gamma town case is less clearly thought out and presented rather poorly and it feels lile you just want to lynch me for the hell of it when there is a perfectly good case on enigma that you yourself have also brought up.

Almost glossed over this because "lol who's phantismo"
I've had you as a scumread since the beginning of the day, so I think this is pretty misreppy
While I think ruru/tw have had interesting interactions and both of them are tied in certain ways to other players I scumread (you and enigma), you've always been near the bottom of my PoE. I scumcased you to see if that read made sense and it did. I don't scumread you

because

I think tw/you had scummy-looking interactions, but I definitely wanted to point those out for if either of you flipped red any time soon
On the other hand I think if you're town you're probably right about enigma... I just don't see my townreads lynching enigma this game day, so

If you flip town Performer looks a little townier, simply be virtue of being confusing to pair with most of the rest of the playerlist
I definitely don't want to lynch you "for the hell of it", but I'll concede that my scumcase on you is not as strong as my (too late) towncase on Gamma. I don't see why that means I shouldn't lynch you, though, since I don't really have a stronger scumread (enigma is around the same level of scummy as you fmpov) and your scumread of enigma kind of seems overblown in the way you're attacking me for.


If you're town and I'm town I'm curious what viable scumteams remain fypov

[Irrelephant11]

Or don't even talk teams necessarily just how likely do you think it is that enigma is scum and that performer is scum because I haven't figured out what to do with you/me/enigma/Performer having each other in our sights - kind of feels scum would do better at setting up three mislynches, not just two
I'd like to hear you reckon with that

[Performer]

Wheres your head at now performer?

Close to placing a vote?

Not close to placing a vote yet - I want to see what Enigma says, and what Korina's input is OTHER than setup and role speculations or catching up or being too busy.

[Korina]

I'm trying to make sense of my thoughts

[Korina]

Here's a thought - we leash alonzo onto who he & us agree to be blocked. That should help us narrow things down.

If town and failed = he dies since scum kills him
If town and succeeded = that's great, likely confirmed scum target
If he succeeded but the block target flipped green after lynch = lynch alonzo next day with prejudice since that means he lied

Several problems I have with this post:
1a) If Ruru is BG, Ruru will flip before Alonzo flips, so his RB failing wouldn't mean anything in the first place.
1b) If Ruru isn't BG, but rather is groupscum, Alonzo isn't dying. It'd be suicidal for Ruru to fake-claim BG, then to kill Alonzo in the first place.
2a) Regardless of if the kill goes through while Alonzo RBs them doesn't confirm anything. Scum are not forced to kill, they could choose not to kill.
2b) Along that same vein, what happens if scum decide to not kill anyone the night Alonzo RBs someone who is pretty well TR'd, to try to frame said player and make us think they're scum?
2c) If the player is the traitor, your theory falls apart instantly. Traitor doesn't have the NK, so they can't do anything, ergo RBing them would do nothing.
3) If scum don't kill, and we choose to lynch whoever Alonzo RB'd, and they flip green, that doesn't mean we should instantly lynch Alonzo. Hell, if we were to go through with this and Alonzo flipped green, I'd bet you're flipping red.

In my case on enigma , he included irrel, me, buj, and alonzo in his ISO of people to lynch/sr but didn't include nm. Alonzo NOT looking at enigma this d3 phase with no reasoning afaik, is alarming by itself.

I have no idea what you're getting at here.

On a related note, I have a bad feeling about buj , as in I don't think he's scum here.
Him voting enigma after I posted my case on enigma, actually makes sense from a town perspective because enigma pushed for buj AND my death, and I absolutely am town here. So buj's vote on enig makes sense as a town process.

I'm not really getting the same vibes from Buj's ISO that I'd expect from Town!Buj. Part of me keeps going back to Open 713 because his play is sorta reminding me of that game atm.

performer's either town or groupscum without a traitor imo because i feel like he doesn't really understand the whole 'recruit traitor' notion

Going by what the setup says, there's IS a traitor. And I was saying alonzo could be traitor and enigma could be the groupscum with nm, who flipped red. Anyway, that's just my hypothetical .

How would that work then? Alonzo would know that Enigma is groupscum, I don't really think trying to PR claim would constitute a traitor-signal.

At the same time I don't see what you mean by "recruit traitor." I'm under the impression that if scum chose that, they can recruit the traitor?
Well in that case couldn't alonzo still have possibly fake claimed with enigma no matter who is who?

Scum is allowed to recruit the traitor. That takes up one of their three modifiers, however, it's a waste of a modifier IMO.

But like
If he's traitor
Then fhpov it's just

true

that enigma getting roleblocked means enigma is conftown

I thought this post was scummy for a few minutes, then I re-read it and it made sense.
So do you think Preformer is traitor then Irrel?

To not be rude and ignore the player I'm scumreading...
@performer I don't think we need to leash Alonzo but he should definitely tell us his targets in advance
But for that to work ruru 100% needs to BG him

pedit: Performer are you scumreading Alonzo for changing his reads? If there's more to it than that please explain

While I don't think scum recruited traitor, what do you do if that's the case? They just know to have the other preform the kill.
Ruru also needs to be on Alonzo, otherwise if Alonzo dies, Ruru just gets policy'd at that point because clearly Ruru is not BG. And if Ruru does flip BG, then that's a wonderful throw.

If Ruru dies tonight, then we re-consider that.
If Ruru doesn't die tonight, we don't do that until Ruru is dead and Alonzo is at risk.

Also, why would Preformer SR Alonzo for changing his reads?

@irrelephant his changing in reads and being noncommital to enigma, as well as claiming he blocked him on n2 , make sense to me if alonzo is fake claiming as scum. When I played with him in 2 games as town, he wasn't as noncommital.

So are you saying that it's {Alonzo, Enigma}?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

I need to think over the ruru having to bg alonzo idea:
if town bg on scum rb, bg dies
if scum bg on town rb, rb dies
if both town, rb dies
if both scum, well damn.

actually you're right there. Never mind me idea, I agree with ruru on alonzo and alonzo designating his target.

If Ruru is town, and Alonzo is scum, I'm not entirely sold on Ruru being killed. Alonzo could try to force MLs from that.
If Ruru is scum, and Alonzo is town, Ruru cannot kill Alonzo, otherwise Ruru will get hanged for lying about being BG, because at this point, Alonzo is who Ruru needs to be on.
If both of them are town, the BG dies before Alonzo does.
If both of them are scum, that just means that this game is fucked.

I still think because Alonzo can't be killed tonight, he shouldn't say who he RB'd in case they recruited traitor.

Waiiiit a minute. alonzo claims to have blocked enigma n2, enigma on d3 said irrel/alonzo/buj were his sr. This was BEFORE alonzo's claim.

So , I am thinking that if enigma flips red & alonzo flips green, this means there is 3 group scum and no traitor. Because an nk still occurred on n2 despite alonzo blocking enigma.
alonzo claimed rb on enigma n2>kill still happened>if enigma flips red, 1 other scum left because of kill on n2

There's two possible reds Enigma could flip: Groupscum and Traitor.
You are assuming here that Enigma flips groupscum, and that Alonzo flips green. If that is the case, yes, they recruited traitor. There literally is no way around it unless we have a vig who didn't claim, (or Enigma flipped JOAT, which means the RB would've been potentially useless.)
However, what if Enigma flips traitor? Regardless of Alonzo flipping green, it only confirms that the modifier scum took wasn't recruit traitor. That's all it does.

Ok .

UNVOTE:

So alonzo did rb on enigma on n2....but there were still ways it could've failed, seeing as Creat died.
What if scum had JOAT - so they could 1-shot strongman, and used that on n2 against creat? The post 2 details in the game, say it can't be blocked.
Despite that, I am starting to see that bujaber is probably the better vote now.

How would Scum!Enigma know to use strongman on n2, even before Alonzo claimed RBer, much less be

that

certain they'd get RB'd?

Still not liking the magical addition of me into his sr list with irrelephant and me as bujaber's sr. No explanation at all after scrolling through his more recent posts. Intent to vote bujaber, but I want to hear from alonz & enigma first.

What are your thoughts on this rn?

I don't think alonzo should telegraph his target today because it's a disaster if bujaber is town and scum recruited traitor, not to mention it gives scum more information on who to shoot

alonzo is living tomorrow to claim tonight's target unless he roleblocks me so there's no benefit in telegraphing

(and if I'm scum somehow thinking solo pushing for massclaim a day early and fakeclaiming bg is a good idea, then I'm shooting someone other than alonzo tonight 100% of the time anyway)

This entire post I agree with. This post really sums up my entire thought process:
- If scum recruited traitor, they just use the other person to kill.
- Alonzo certainly is living tonight. Period.
- Ruru certainly is on Alonzo tonight, meaning that Ruru flips before Alonzo.
- If Ruru is fake-claiming BG, she's shooting someone else that isn't Alonzo, because shooting Alonzo while fake-claiming BG is suicide.
- Alonzo is not RBing Ruru.

Still not liking the magical addition of me into his sr list with irrelephant and me as bujaber's sr. No explanation at all after scrolling through his more recent posts. Intent to vote bujaber, but I want to hear from alonz & enigma first.

What are you talking about?

You guys didn't magically appear in my scumreads.

Tw was my hypo inno so I had to pretend I townread him. When we massclaimed this was not needed at all. Same with alonzo. If he hadn't claimed PR I'd be pushing for his lynch right now, but he did and we can easily confirm his alignment by him getting killed tonight if ruru is lying or tomorrow if ruru isn't lying.

Why would we lynch a PR? I said that trying to fake-claim to draw away the NK was a bad idea in general, and explained why it was bad. I don't think scum would be

that

bold to try to fake-claim in the first place.

[Korina]

Basically:
Alonzo isn't dying tonight. If he does, we lynch Ruru.
Alonzo shouldn't say who he's rbing
I think Preformer is confused town.
I think Buj is just scum.

[Korina]

I'm pretty sure that it's {Buj, Enigma}.

[Performer]

Basically:
Alonzo isn't dying tonight. If he does, we lynch Ruru.
Alonzo shouldn't say who he's rbing
I think Preformer is confused town.
I think Buj is just scum.

I'm pretty sure that it's {Buj, Enigma}.

Can you expand on this?

[Performer]

Also @ everyone and mod: I'll be traveling this weekend so v/la over the weekend

[Korina]

Basically:
Alonzo isn't dying tonight. If he does, we lynch Ruru.
Alonzo shouldn't say who he's rbing
I think Preformer is confused town.
I think Buj is just scum.

I'm pretty sure that it's {Buj, Enigma}.

Can you expand on this?

What specifically?

[Irrelephant11]

So do you think Preformer is traitor then Irrel?

I thought tw was. I'm not as sure about Performer

Also, why would Preformer SR Alonzo for changing his reads?

Idk but that's what it seemed like at the time

Korina what do you think about the fact that Performer's wiki says he fakes confusion as scum to look towny?

[Korina]

Apart from the fact that he's been on hiatus and just now came back, and his wiki was updated before hiatus...
I'm not really sure on it.

Part of me is saying that his hiatus would change his meta.
The other part is saying that he's still able to fake that since its not hard.

If one flips green out of {Buj, Enigma}, I'd be willing to put Performer back into lynchable pile based on his wiki-page.

[Korina]

How do you feel about it Irrel?

[Performer]

@korina expand on your sr of buj and enigma.

[skitter30]

If you flip town Performer looks a little townier, simply be virtue of being confusing to pair with most of the rest of the playerlist

i dissagree, simply by virtue of the fact that there's now 2 scum that have to be found in 7 other people if bujaber flips green

+ i know i'm town and presumably ruru and alonzo are town and/or will be resolved by nk's

so really from my POV there are 2 scum in {enigma/performer/irrel} if bujaber flips green

==

Why would we lynch a PR? I said that trying to fake-claim to draw away the NK was a bad idea in general, and explained why it was bad. I don't think scum would be that bold to try to fake-claim in the first place.

i kinda disagree in general; two stack-the-decks ago scum fake-claimed rb day1 iirc and coasted to endgame on that

(at least partially because i didn't believe scum would fake-claim; like it's a dumb hting to do imo but people do it anyways apparrently. also because town decided to lol-fake-claim goon cop in mylo and got cc'd by the real goon cop and got mislynched for it; fun times)

i think it's a little bit less likely here because we instituted an order and had the less-townread people claim first

[Irrelephant11]

Korina is never in your lynchpool, skitter?

@korina I just find it interesting you're reading Performer as "confused town" when it seems that is his scum meta. It definitely might have changed but I'm surprised it didn't give you pause

[skitter30]

no i just miscounted somehow

2 scum in {irrel/korina/enigma/performer} from my pov upon a bujaber greenflip

[Korina]

@korina expand on your sr of buj and enigma.

Buj isn't playing how I'd expect Town!Buj to be playing atm. His posting currently feels very similar to Open 713: Jungle Republic, where he was scum. I'm also looking back at Micro 785: Forest Fire Blitz where he was TPR.
I don't really think that he's Town in general.

Enigma, I haven't really seen too much that I agree with on being townie. Some of Enigma's recent posting were actually alright, however, I just have a bad feeling about leaving Enigma alive.

If one of them flips green, I'm certainly gonna re-evaluate everyone.

Why would we lynch a PR? I said that trying to fake-claim to draw away the NK was a bad idea in general, and explained why it was bad. I don't think scum would be that bold to try to fake-claim in the first place.

i kinda disagree in general; two stack-the-decks ago scum fake-claimed rb day1 iirc and coasted to endgame on that

(at least partially because i didn't believe scum would fake-claim; like it's a dumb hting to do imo but people do it anyways apparrently. also because town decided to lol-fake-claim goon cop in mylo and got cc'd by the real goon cop and got mislynched for it; fun times)

i think it's a little bit less likely here because we instituted an order and had the less-townread people claim first

I feel like scum is within the VT claims, not the TPR claims.
I also certainly feel that Ruru/Alonzo get resolved by the night actions.
If not, it's dumb for Scum!Ruru to try to claim BG when that limits her killpool.

@korina I just find it interesting you're reading Performer as "confused town" when it seems that is his scum meta. It definitely might have changed but I'm surprised it didn't give you pause

I was thinking about it for a moment, however, I wanted to give Performer the benefit of the doubt on his meta changing in the 2-year hiatus.
If one of {Buj, Enigma} flips green, yea, I'd certainly take his meta into account.
If his meta was updated recently and that was true, I'd say that he's scum, but I wanna give him the benefit of the doubt for rn.

[Performer]

VOTE COUNT 1.28

Almost50 (0):

HeWhoSwims (1):

Almost50

the worst (1):

Not_Mafia

ruru (0):

BuJaber (0):

Not_Mafia (7):

the worst, ruru, skitter30, Vex Vience, Creature, Enigma, ejjinami

LYNCH

Enigma (0):

ejjinami (0):

Creature (0):

Gamma Emerald (2):

HeWhoSwims, BuJaber

skitter30 (0):

Vex Vience (0):

Not Voting (1):

Gamma Emerald

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch.
Day 1 ends in (expired on 2018-09-14 16:30:00)

Other

:
- skitter30 V/LA Fridays and Saturdays
- HeWhoSwims still needs to be replaced

If we look at d1 vc, the only person still alive who didn't vote nm, is bujaber.
Looking at who's on the wagon, it doesn't make sense for enigma to be doing L-1 to a partner on d1....while eji is now irrel. I can't see it making sense for irrel to hammer a partner on d1 either unless really necessary.
So maybe it's 1 or both of skitter/Korina in the middle of the wagon??
Maybe scum wanted to cut their losses so they distanced via bussing - but I don't see how both partners would've been on nm to bus him on d1.

VOTE COUNT 2.13

Alonzo (0):

the worst (2):

Enigma, Alonzo

ruru (0):

BuJaber (0):

Enigma (2):

Irrelephant11, Gamma Emerald

Irrelephant11 (0):

Creature (0):

Gamma Emerald (6):

Creature, skitter30, ruru, Korina, BuJaber, the worst

HAMMER

skitter30 (0):

Korina (0):

Not Voting (0):

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to kill.
Day 2 ends in (expired on 2018-10-02 10:30:00)

Other:

- skitter30 V/LA Fridays and Saturdays
- BuJaber V/LA through Sunday
- Korina V/LA through Monday
- skitter30 V/LA through Tuesday
- Were you all impressed with how quickly I locked the game thread?

For d2 end of day vc, enig was getting enough heat for irrel & GE to voted him - not only that, but alonzo felt he was suspect enough to rb him. It's not outlandish to think that enigma perhaps realized that he was being suspected a lot and (if they have a 3rd goon) wanted his other living partner to do the nk on n2, on creature. This way alonzo would get a false clear on enigma.
What else I noticed was buj, skitter, korina - all claimed vts and all voted GE for d2 lynch, quite safely in middle of the wagon. What's worrisome is that GE a veteran player, thought someone else was scummier than any of the 6 on his wagon... wth?