Town should never quickhammer

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BulletNLynchproof
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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:09 am

(Note: The topic title has been changed, it was initially "Quickhammering should be a bannable offence")

I have enough of games being destroyed by quickhammering. Sorry but I feel the need for a call for a ban on these.

First of all, I should define quickhammering. What I call quickhammering is hammering with no prior warning. It doesn't necessarily mean an intent to hammer, but can also include things like people on the wagon calling for a hammer. Also a chance for the hammeree to react to the intent must be given: an intent followed by a hammer 5 minutes later is still quickhammering.

Secondly, I don't think quickhammering is bad in all situations. I certainly don't have a problem with scum quickhammering to secure a win in LyLo, and in certain situations town can also quickhammer to secure a win. It may be necessary to quickhammer at deadline to avoid a No Lynch. Finally, sometimes accidents do happen and while this still hurts the game, it isn't entirely the player's fault.

But in normal situations, quickhammers should be viewed as a form of trolling. Why? This will be unexpected to many players. There will be people who still want to discuss things. This is especially true for the lynchee, who should be always given the final chance to say things like a claim and final reads in any situation, but also applies for people who are likely to be nightkilled. Overall, this decreases the chances for people to play the game altogether, which is really cheating the players and the mod of part of a game experience.

Here is an extreme example of the effects of quickhammering. Someone decided it'll be funny to randomly hammer a guy at L-1 early game. It turned out the guy he hammered was a key power role to the game which unlocked important information for mechanics to the game, and after that most people started to become apathetic to the game. This led to the game being player abandoned as a result. So not only were the players robbed of a fun game, the mod's effort into preparing the game was wasted, which is a huge insult to players and the mod.

"But if I don't quickhammer, people will start unvoting and I will not be able to lynch them again"
This sounds like you have an ego problem. If you want to lynch him use your voice to convince the crowds, and if you are unable to restart the wagon you probably shouldn't deserve to lynch them anyway.

tl;dr Quickhammering is a form of trolling and ruins games, and needs to be looked into as an offence.
Last edited by BulletNLynchproof on Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:39 pm

quickhammering for teh lulz is going against wincon like actually
after the game is over the quickhammerer should face consequence
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people should get beat up for stating their beliefs

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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:43 pm

Your mum should be bannable offence

Elsa Jay
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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:01 pm

The game provided as an example was... Awkward. Why would any Mod let votes from Pre-game carry over?

Also, seemed like it was more Drealm getting picked on specifically by others that lead to that, and the weird vote mechanics, not the actual hammer.

A quickhammer is a valid strategy as town or scum, as you mentioned. Some games take more conservative views, but you gotta study the player base as well so you know what your up against.

NotMaf being in game, for example, means you don't even let someone get to L-2 without expecting them to die. Going in prepared is also something you gotta do.

Sorry your fun in that game was ruined though.

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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:04 pm

Libellous

Elsa Jay
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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:14 pm

It can't be Libel if it's true.

Also, hey again NotMaf. Been a long time. Looking forward to when you screw me over again.

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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:10 am

Well, there is way easier solution that was used in past - don't put someone at L-1, especially early game

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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:57 am

In post 0, BulletNLynchproof wrote:tl;dr Quickhammering is a form of trolling and ruins games, and needs to be looked into as an offence.

What if it works?

How do you prove a quickhammer is a quickhammer? What if a dude saw a 100% scumtell for that player and used it to hammer the player before he argued his way out of the wagon?

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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:20 am

then he explains it the following day?
"invisibility is actually braindead" -- RadiantCowbells

people should get beat up for stating their beliefs

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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:35 am

In post 7, BBmolla wrote:
In post 0, BulletNLynchproof wrote:tl;dr Quickhammering is a form of trolling and ruins games, and needs to be looked into as an offence.

What if it works?

How do you prove a quickhammer is a quickhammer? What if a dude saw a 100% scumtell for that player and used it to hammer the player before he argued his way out of the wagon?


i think only quickhammering town is bannable, quickhammering scum makes you a hero

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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:23 am

doubt this'll work

"Active lurking should be a bannable offense"
"Being non-site-rule-breaking-ly rude as a strategy should be a bannable offense"
"Self-voting should be a bannable offense"

It's all just ways to play the game. They're unpleasant, and usually pro-scum, but not always both or either of those things, and sometimes they're game winning. It's playstyle, and I don't think it should be banned just for being unpopular.

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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:51 pm

quicklynching sucks and repeatedly seeing it happen has done a lot to turn me off from forum mafia
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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:02 pm

Quickhammerring is fun

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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:00 pm

Uncaring, unthoughtful quickhammering I would argue is against the spirit of the game, regardless of alignment.

Accidental quickhammering, though unintended, unfortunately does happen and while regardless of alignment it puts the game in an awkward position, it can't be easily prevented and the presence of genuinely accidental quickhammers makes it a little harder to prove the presence of deliberate, uncaring, unthoughtful quickhammers.

Quickhammers with direct thought put into them, carefully weighed and decided, are within the spirit of the game, because the player making the quickhammer was, in their view, playing towards their wincon. However, the presence of this as a legitimate play call also makes it harder to prove the presence of deliberate, uncaring, unthoughtful quickhammers.

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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:37 pm

Lynching should be a bannable offense
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Post Post #15  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:26 pm

We shouldn't lynch, we should just talk to the scum and reach a compromise to no lynch/no kill and have every game end in a draw.

That's the path of peace and friendship <3 <3 <3

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Post Post #16  (ISO)  » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:22 pm

In post 13, mastina wrote:Uncaring, unthoughtful quickhammering I would argue is against the spirit of the game, regardless of alignment.

Accidental quickhammering, though unintended, unfortunately does happen and while regardless of alignment it puts the game in an awkward position, it can't be easily prevented and the presence of genuinely accidental quickhammers makes it a little harder to prove the presence of deliberate, uncaring, unthoughtful quickhammers.

Quickhammers with direct thought put into them, carefully weighed and decided, are within the spirit of the game, because the player making the quickhammer was, in their view, playing towards their wincon. However, the presence of this as a legitimate play call also makes it harder to prove the presence of deliberate, uncaring, unthoughtful quickhammers.

As a moderator, I'd really like to be able to eliminate accidental quickhammers in a way that doesn't lead to worse problems (such as continuous stupid fakehammer gambits).

I'm not sure whether eliminating intentional quickhammers would be a gain or loss; I think it depends on your playerlist. (It's probably a gain to allow scum to quickhammer in lylo, at least, but that's a special case as they don't care about being caught as long as the hammer goes through.) In smaller games (definitely Micro, probably even Mini), it'd likely be a net gain as one townie who decides to take a gamble can ruin the game for everyone else if it fails (arguably even if it succeeds, in a different way); a day 1 quickhammer is effectively adding a large amount of swing to the game.

For what it's worth, I was surprised by the "hammer rule" when I joined this site. All the places I'd played previously had a countdown to allow players to change their votes before a hammer was "locked in".

(Now this thread's got me brainstorming what Mafia without lynches would look like. Town would use night actions in an attempt to eliminate the scum, and days would end when the players voted to end the day or when deadline ran out.)
scum · scam · seam · team · term · tern · torn · town

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Post Post #17  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 14, 2018 12:00 pm

In post 10, Irrelephant11 wrote:doubt this'll work

"Active lurking should be a bannable offense"
"Being non-site-rule-breaking-ly rude as a strategy should be a bannable offense"
"Self-voting should be a bannable offense"

It's all just ways to play the game. They're unpleasant, and usually pro-scum, but not always both or either of those things, and sometimes they're game winning. It's playstyle, and I don't think it should be banned just for being unpopular.

Just wanna chime in and say that this is the viewpoint I agree with. How does one judge whether a quickhammer was made with unsportsmanlike intent or not? It's just arbitrary. You can't ban people for just playing the game in not-outright-illegal ways that certain people don't agree with.

In post 15, Nicolas Cage wrote:We shouldn't lynch, we should just talk to the scum and reach a compromise to no lynch/no kill and have every game end in a draw.

That's the path of peace and friendship <3 <3 <3

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Post Post #18  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:49 pm

The actual solution to these sort of problems is to policy lynch players who do shitty things till they stop playing

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Post Post #19  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:10 pm

I've only read the title



no
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Post Post #20  (ISO)  » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:29 pm

In post 18, BBmolla wrote:The actual solution to these sort of problems is to policy lynch players who do shitty things till they stop playing


That seems nore lime you want to Wotc them out the game BEFORE they do something.

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Post Post #21  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:30 pm

In post 16, callforjudgement wrote:As a moderator, I'd really like to be able to eliminate accidental quickhammers in a way that doesn't lead to worse problems (such as continuous stupid fakehammer gambits).


I use this rule which helps a lot:

If I make a mistake in the vote-count, point it out immediately, but UNTIL I fix it, I will only acknowledge a majority if BOTH the actual vote total AND the number of additional votes after the last VC indicate a majority. To put it otherwise, nothing will get hammered if I missed counting a vote on a top wagon.


Most accidental quickhammers involve an accident in the VC ime.
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Post Post #22  (ISO)  » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:54 pm

It’s not just accidental quickhammers though. A lot of people like to quickhammer now just for the lolz.
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Post Post #23  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:27 am

In post 22, BulletNLynchproof wrote:It’s not just accidental quickhammers though. A lot of people like to quickhammer now just for the lolz.


That's like, just your opinion man.
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Post Post #24  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:35 am

Making quick hammering a bannable offense is too subjective and allows for too much moderator influence into the game. It's like making it a bannable or mod-killable offense for starting a policy lynch on a player.

If someone is known to quick hammer for the lulz, then like Elsa said the rest of the players can adjust - whether by keeping someone at L-2 or lynching the quick hammerer from the start.

Considering it is a strategic move, I'd say just leave it alone for players to handle.
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