Open 736: Diffusion of Power - Game Over

[BuJaber]

Hello
VOTE: A50
Because I have a sense of humor.

[BuJaber]

good morning friends and allies

This pinged me.

More like Carcasilly

That shit fire cuz

Lmao

I don't agree with PP I think this is actually more indicative of town!NM. Not that I'm super confident of that.

Creature is probably town. Likely skitter and spaghetti also. I am holding off on townreading A50 for now.

Sorry I didn't post earlier I forgot this game already started. I haven't memorized the name/number yet.

I don't like carcalilly's start but then again it seems very ballsy as scum. But having an issue with the implosion votes was really odd.
VOTE: carcalilly

[BuJaber]

Yeah I think gamma is town. Scum maybe trying to set him up as today's lynch pool. Seems like a stupid fight to pick with PP as scum and also it doesn't feel fake to me.

Scum pool: {implosion, carcalily, PP, hanshen, cmod, enigma} + A50 is a maybe.

[BuJaber]

But there's 3 mafia

[BuJaber]

If it helps I want to start with carca, PP, Implosion. There's definitely at least 1 scum there.

Cmod and heshang hopefully will be sortable once they actually post.

[BuJaber]

What about him is scummy?

[BuJaber]

Spaghetti's posts are kind of difficult to read :/
Try to use names or shortcuts of names. Also for a lot of the common abbreviations take a look here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations

What is dual tunneling mode? Does implosion do that a lot?

@Imp - please enlighten us on what part of my posting should be interpretted as a 'more-or-less' scum claim. Could be good for both of us in future games.

[BuJaber]

OMG Guys look at this flail

You've yet to see how extraordinarily I can flail.

Majestic

[BuJaber]

Could be good for both of us in future games.

Seems more good for you than for me~

Gamma's town though, idk why penguin thinks that calling someone a LIAR is scummy.

Are you sure about that?
Upgrading your scum-o-meter is good for you always.
Me learning how to avoid getting scumread by you is only useful in specific scenarios.

[BuJaber]

Thought he could use it as a vehicle to get a wagon on me going but walked it back when he realized it wasn't true.

This does make sense but I'm not sure it applies to someone like gamma. I could be wrong but I just don't see him going for something like that as scum.

Not to mention that whether or not your statement is accurate your push on NM feels scummy and opportunistic to me, and I'd laugh if this was some sort of attempt at SvS distancing because it's quite clever in a silly/reckless way. But basically gamma is more likely to flip town than you.

[BuJaber]

who's doing this?

Implosion and PP

And I'm voting carcalilly because she discouraged the implosion votes. Wasn't clear why. It's anti-progress at best (those votes help move the game forward and there was no reason to townread implosion at that point even if she didn't scumread him) but more likely she's scum whiteknighting or defending a buddy. It's still ballsy though which makes me hesitate a little bit.

[BuJaber]

Not to mention that whether or not your statement is accurate your push on NM feels scummy and opportunistic to me, and I'd laugh if this was some sort of attempt at SvS distancing because it's quite clever in a silly/reckless way.

How was my "push" scummy and opportunistic when I am the only vote on him?

Is there a minimum number of votes needed for a wagon to be opportunistic? NM is a somewhat easy target. There's no good way to defend him.

Can any of us point to one of his posts and say 'here you go.. obvtown'? No. Does that mean he's scum? No.

And any case that talks about relative activity levels is subjective. It's hard to prove or disprove it. That's why it's pretty perfect for a scum case.

For example I generally post quite frequently as town. But it's not easily measurable like x posts per page or something. So if some player says 'Buj is posting less than he normally does' and another player disagrees it's hard to say who is right. Even if we did have a clear criterium for determining which is correct, would that tell you my alignment for sure? No because there'd be many factors that could affect my postcount.

So here it's hard to prove you wrong and you might from your POV genuinenly believe he's playing differently to his town meta BUT at the same time the fact that it's basically a gut-based case and one that is difficult to prove AND it's on a generally unreadable player like NM makes it an easy case for scum to push.

[BuJaber]

bujaber: so implosion is townreading gamma; i don't think he's setting him up to being mislynched;

This only became clear like on this page or something when he disagreed with PP.

Earlier he was voting him. And then when questioned said it was a reaction test.

I have doubts.

[BuJaber]

what's bothering me about your carca vote is that you called it ballsy for scum to do and then voted her anyways; it also feels kinda incongruous to me

I like to do that when it's someone I both scumread but also have reason(s) to tonwread. A solid scumread would trump it, I just don't have one of those yet.

It's different to a pure nullread, where I don't normally think voting them would make reading them any easier.

[BuJaber]

It's a wifom argument of course it's contrived... if I said "I don't think scum would do that" someone will (or at least should) ask me "why not?" And I'd have to explain. I'm skipping that middle step.

[BuJaber]

okay bujy's logic is faulty but I can't see any scum motivation for what they're trying to do

Nooo not my logic!

Why is it faulty?

[BuJaber]

bujabby give me a self meta

Ehhh..
I'm not great at explaining myself so I end up with a lot of wallposts.

As town:
I tend to have a long-term approach to the game where I don't mind some early mislynches if I think they'll improve read accuracy.
I can be an asshole.
I like to continuously split the playerbase into smaller scum pool(s) as my reads/associatives develop.
I place a lot of importance on early-game/RVS scumreads. That's when people have their guard down. I think about associatives a lot, maybe too much; I've been known to form them prematurely.

As scum:
I tend to experiment every game. I like to try new strategies. I tend to rely on WIFOM to break townblocs/avoid detection/decide NKs. I try to imitate my town game somewhat but seems like it comes of as fake a lot of the time. I try to deliberately forget who my scummates are for more natural interactions but that's not something you can control sadly. Don't know what else I don't think I'm comfortable yet as scum to have like an established meta. My postcount probably drops unintentionally... it's hard to find things to say when you know it's fake.

[BuJaber]

It's a wifom argument of course it's contrived... if I said "I don't think scum would do that" someone will (or at least should) ask me "why not?" And I'd have to explain. I'm skipping that middle step.

That’s not my problem
I feel like your way of explaining it was rather roundabout

Am I right though? Or would scum!you push a similar case as you did on PP and then kinda take it back?

[BuJaber]

your organization is very awkward and almost contradictory, but I feel like you're a sort of train-of-thought writer

My turn.. why are you singling me out.. what's your experience with the rest of this playerbase?

[BuJaber]

It's a wifom argument of course it's contrived... if I said "I don't think scum would do that" someone will (or at least should) ask me "why not?" And I'd have to explain. I'm skipping that middle step.

That’s not my problem
I feel like your way of explaining it was rather roundabout

Am I right though? Or would scum!you push a similar case as you did on PP and then kinda take it back?

The truth is I would push PP in the way I did, and have pushed someone in that manner in the past. Not for lying, but for another reason. Either way your argument still reads contrived and you appealing to being right tells me you lack a sufficient counter.

Well it's a big fucking deal, if this is NAI for you then my TR on you is unfounded. You drop down to a nullread, the case on implosion falls apart because you might be scum, the SR on PP is slightly weakened because it is solely limited to his NM push now.

You just invalidated everything I did this game.
The only silver lining is you linked yourself to implosion (and slightly to PP). So at least if one of you flips scum the other is confscum.

I hope you're underestimating your own scumgame.

Updates: A50 town. Imp null. Gamma + skitter possible scum. (too many people voting me this early.. 100% 1+ is scum and since the wagon will probably dissipate for being an early one they think they'll be safe from scrutiny)

[BuJaber]

VC please let's see how many people are 'shocked' at the number of votes on me.

[BuJaber]

also i think carca may be town but i'm not sure; her playstyle is the sort that i have trouble reading

Creature, you, and gamma have sll played with me before yet all 3 of you are scumreading me.

Carca who has never played with me before is townreading me.

You don't find that suspicious?

[BuJaber]

Not misreading.

Before he corrected me on his meta I townread gamma pretty strongly because I didn't think he'd call out PP like that as scum.

Because of this TR I scumread you for trying to push gamma and then saying it was a reaction test which I didn't believe.

Now that I know he can do it as scum I can't TR him. So he's null. If he's null then what you did stops being scummy.

So gamma's post has flipped my cases on their heads and invalidated them. Doing so he has indirectly defended you by making me look bad and making you look good. Therefore if he's scum you are too. But I don't have any reason to SR either of you anymore because the gamma thing has become NAI. So you're both nullreads but just associated with each other.

[BuJaber]

Unless you're going off of some notion that I should have been townreading gamma at that point but the new information you got made it so that I shouldn't have been townreading gamma, which I have even more problems with.

Exactly. I don't see what the problem is.

I thought I was right about gamma. So it looked like you wanted to lynch a townie. But now it's gamma himself that defended you so it's different. If he had not said anything then it follows that if he flips town you'd be scum because then I'd be correct that you voted a townie for vague meta reasons.

[BuJaber]

I don't know what defines a 'super-focused' associative but here's a game where I did it quite a lot. viewtopic.php?f=84&t=75395

[BuJaber]

And more convoluted logic. My vote stays

That's what people said in civ mafia.

And if I recall you were one of very few people that didn't scumread me in day 1. Yet here you are.
Guess failure to meta read someone goes both ways.

[BuJaber]

And more convoluted logic. My vote stays

That's what people said in civ mafia.

And if I recall you were one of very few people that didn't scumread me in day 1. Yet here you are.
Guess failure to meta read someone goes both ways.

How was your logic contrived in that game? And even then, your logic at this point is trying to push me+implosion because “Gamma changed my read on him which makes implosion possibly town, so they could be scum together”. That is some major mental gymnastics. How would I know that you would consider implosion town after that? In fact you just assuming we’re scum together is a red flag because that requires multiple assumptions. Plus there’s the fact I put myself in the spotlight. If you think I was saving him do you not think there were better options?

Ahh yes.. the gambit where only 1 player is suspicious of it and everyone else is turning on that 1 player as a result of it. What a failure!

If you are both scum you just owned the entire playerbase - 1. I'd like to see you perform a better one 'without being in the spotlight' where you get 100% townread by everyone. Because that would pretty much be the only way to top this.

And I don't think my logic was contrived in either game. I just know a bunch of people hounded me over some of my associations and assumptions in that game also and my thought process feels similar to me here.

[BuJaber]

Why.. who are they?
Mylo has an alt named Music but M&M's posts don't sound at all like him.

[BuJaber]

You haven't answered why you think he's scummy.

[BuJaber]

Okay no offence but I can't take you seriously if you continue to post like this.

I understand you have some site and game-related questions (which is why newbie games are recommended for people new to the site), but a pretty big portion of your posts is about names and avatars of people. What are you reads? Why do you think someone is town? Why do you think someone is scum?

And could you split up your sentences a little bit? Just any sign that one sentence ended and another began. It doesn't have to be grammatically correct, god knows my posts are barely legible a lot of the time, but just help us read. Period or dollar sign or capital letter anything like that.

^ for sphagettio

VOTE: Penguin
This feels like town!NM

[BuJaber]

Well it's a big fucking deal, if this is NAI for you then my TR on you is unfounded. You drop down to a nullread, the case on implosion falls apart because you might be scum, the SR on PP is slightly weakened because it is solely limited to his NM push now.

You just invalidated everything I did this game.
The only silver lining is you linked yourself to implosion (and slightly to PP). So at least if one of you flips scum the other is confscum.

I hope you're underestimating your own scumgame.

Updates: A50 town. Imp null. Gamma + skitter possible scum. (too many people voting me this early.. 100% 1+ is scum and since the wagon will probably dissipate for being an early one they think they'll be safe from scrutiny)

i read this like four times and i don't follow. implosion is scum for pushing town!gamma but what gamma did is nai (and thus gamma might be scum) so implosion isn't scummy for that anymore but if gamma is scum then implosion is too?

so you thus have a nullread on implosion even though he's scummy irregardless of gamma's alignment?

and what do i have to do with this and how am i scummier? and how did a50 become town here?

A50 townread was just an extra it wasn't related. Call it gut. There's a certain playfulness about him. And while I have no doubt he's competent at imitating his town posting as scum, I don't know if he's able to give off the same tone as well.

You are only in the scum pool for PoE reasons for being one of my voters.

I explained the process but implosion was scummy for pushing a town!gamma when I thought gamma cannot be scum by meta. Knowing that gamma CAN be scum invalidates that. So if gamma is scum implosions actions ON THEIR OWN are more likely town indicative. However it was gamma stating that about his own meta that makes me suspicious of implosion because indirectly he has defended implosion. Had gamma flipped scum without saying anything for example, I would have no reason to suspect implosion. But since he did talk, implosion got associated with him.

==

also i think carca may be town but i'm not sure; her playstyle is the sort that i have trouble reading

Creature, you, and gamma have sll played with me before yet all 3 of you are scumreading me.

Carca who has never played with me before is townreading me.

You don't find that suspicious?

uh no?

why should i trust carca's read more than gamma's/mine/creature's?

actually my point here is the opposite. I know I'm town, but 3 people who know me have all scumread me this game. Knowing me, I find it harder to believe that in such a scenario where I am scumread by 3 people who know me, I get one person who doesn't know me that townreads me. It felt like she had inside knowledge.

I know that sounds contradictory.. how could you trust your read over hers when I am telling you you're wrong. But it's because from my pov everything I'm doing is townie, I just can't guarantee it comes off that way to others. Multiple people sharing the same read gives it quite a lot of credibility, to the point where maybe I really am coming off as scummy.

But beyond that my experience with people who play with me for the first time is to be scumread by or at least untrusted by them. For some reason mastina is the only one I recall breaking that pattern, bless her heart.

So when carca states a townread like that at that moment in the game it makes me uneasy.

==

Unless you're going off of some notion that I should have been townreading gamma at that point but the new information you got made it so that I shouldn't have been townreading gamma, which I have even more problems with.

Exactly. I don't see what the problem is.

I thought I was right about gamma. So it looked like you wanted to lynch a townie. But now it's gamma himself that defended you so it's different.

If he had not said anything then it follows that if he flips town you'd be scum because then I'd be correct that you voted a townie for vague meta reasons.

this feels very black and white to me; it's an entirely possible that a townie can vote a townie for vague meta reasons

Maybe so but how likely is it that 2 townies vote another townie for the same vague meta reasons? Especially when it's very early game, looks very much like 1 scum 1 town. But again we now need gamma's flip desperately for information. I hope people will see that eventually.

This feels like town!NM

have you correctly read him in the past?

I don't know if I have. But I recall one instance of him playing very similar to this where I tried to engage him to get more out of him and he still stuck to his few-words-no-explanation-naked-reads kind of posts and I scumread him for that and he flipped town. He was also posting a lot of irrelevant shit about math and whatnot which with the amount of posts he wasted here seems similar. I don't like making the same mistake twice.

[BuJaber]

@Cmod - I agree that you should investigate M&M. I think there is a lot hanging on that to the point that it will a) influence scum actions which will give us clues and b) give town the ability to make mechanical plays in our favor.

@A50 - I am curious what games lead you to make that assessment of my scum game. It's above what I would rate myself given that I've won only 1 scum game if I'm not mistaken.

@A50 + M&M - I think the correct play is between your two options. There is imo no good reason to lynch Cmod as early as d2 just to confirm M&M, but NOT lynching cmod at all isn't a great solution either. What will happen is come day 3 or even day 4 we would have several NKs and several lynches. I really don't expect us to mislynch twice in a row if nobody in {a50, M&M, and Cmod} dies. Basically I think the correct play is to lynch cmod on day 3, if there is still reason to be paranoid about one of those 3. With the info that NK's, potential cop results, and 2 mislynches, I believe we will have a fairly accurate idea of which scum teams are IMPOSSIBLE, meaning we will either eliminate Cmod+M&M as an option OR we will lynch cmod at that point. Also by then if A50 is not dead and people are suspecting him we could consider lynching him also, as I can see this sort of gambit coming from cmod + A50. Tbh it seems like a much better gambit than if M&M + cmod are a team. The fact that it would have 1 townie in between them, where they can WIFOM their way into a townbloc and buddy M&M in the process would be pretty big to pass up.

Like I expected my wagon has fizzled, I'd like us to lynch in {PP, gamma, implosion, skitter} in that order of preference. UNLESS someone has good reason to believe that NM is scum here or that PP is town.

Lovebird needs to post a lot to make up for the absence of her predecessor. (This time I will not let you live if you're scum I will not doubt myself)

[BuJaber]

Bujaber in exchange for my having protected you from being lynched I would appreciate if you vote with me on Implosion.

I think I was doing fine on my own. It was a hell of a lot worse in earthbound mafia and I wasn't lynched even though scum got me all the way to L-1 I think.

Thanks though anyway if you're town whether or not you helped you actually tried to help which is good.

But I don't like implosion as a lynch before PP / gamma. I think gamma flips informs imp's alignment but it doesn't work very well the other way on the chance that he flips town. Like right now with the way that gamma a) pushed me, b) invalidated my meta read, and c) indirectly defended implosion, if implosion flips town then gamma could be either alignment.

I also think PP and Imp are not scum together.

So basically I need to know that the chance for imp to flip scum is much higher than him flipping town for it to make sense to lynch him first before the other 2. And I can only do that if I trust you fully which won't be before day 2. Join us on PP

[BuJaber]

earthbound mafia

Wrong game. I'm thinking of winter wonderland

[BuJaber]

Why not wait until tomorrow at least?
If he's town he'll be VT anyway.. makes much more sense than killing him now.
Especially when the three of A50, M&M, Cmod latched on to each so beautifully for us to analyze every NK from now on. Delicious puzzles await us.

[BuJaber]

Why does that mean we lynch M&M day 1?

[BuJaber]

I'd like us to lynch in {PP, gamma, implosion, skitter} in that order of preference.

Is that some order of mislynches?

That list is only for day 1.

I am only comfortable lynching one of those 4 today. And of those, I want to lynch skitter the least.

[BuJaber]

D2 onwards we'll have a bunch of mechanical stuff that will influence the lynches.

[BuJaber]

I've seen her play scum twice. I just didn't have the town pull to lynch her in those games. And I began to doubt myself. Both times

If she's scummy I feel confident I'll know it. Whether or not you take my word for it is something else alltogether.

But I won't be lynching her before she posts lol and I don't think 1 day will be enough to sort someone like her. Unless she posts like a whole lot very quickly, then who knows.. never say never I guess.

[BuJaber]

Mafia PT locked during day, open at night

Atleast I feel confident CreativeMod is town because of this.

What's the policy with pre game mod PT's? Does the mod have to announce if they opened it?

[BuJaber]

Her entrance does look like she's buying time.

[BuJaber]

But like so many people rep in and their first post is "busy until x time will catchup" which isn't any better.

[BuJaber]

Creature have you ever tried as scum?
If no...
When you do can I spectate the game? That first time you do it will be bonkers.

[BuJaber]

Why do you want to lynch an inactive slot?

[BuJaber]

Mafia PT locked during day, open at night

Atleast I feel confident CreativeMod is town because of this.

What's the policy with pre game mod PT's? Does the mod have to announce if they opened it?

likely it's opened during pregame, but M&M wasn't present that time.

Yeah but cmod could have still pulled this gambit off with A50

AND just because a PT is locked doesn't mean M&M couldn't have read it and knew what cmod would do.

2nd one is unlikely I know ...

I don't scumread Cmod I just don't like what you're basing the townread on.

[BuJaber]

What are you basing the skitter read on?

[BuJaber]

I have a reason to scumread skitter but it's reallly wifomy and fourth-wall-breaking...

With pick your power ending, she really genuinenly sounds like she's tired from playing scum. If she got scum here I think she'd want to replace out but I think she knows that if she replaces out she'll be autolynched so she's staying in but cutting down on how much she posts.

Plus as I said really believe at least one vote on my wagon was scum.

[BuJaber]

D2 onwards we'll have a bunch of mechanical stuff that will influence the lynches.

Why was this not in the previous post?

Becaue I wasn't sure I needed this extra clarification so I submited but then I decided to post it anyway.

Creature have you ever tried as scum?
If no...
When you do can I spectate the game? That first time you do it will be bonkers.

He has
He almost won but he got screwed by mechanics

I am reading those games when I get some time just for the entertainment value.

[BuJaber]

@A50 - I am curious what games lead you to make that assessment of my scum game. It's above what I would rate myself given that I've won only 1 scum game if I'm not mistaken.

Also @A50.. now that I know that everyone knows the PT wasn't open it's a moot point. Though for the record you didn't have to know it was M&M who would claim for you to have planned it around ANY d1 doc claim.

And can I be higher on your townlist? If I'm going to be townread because of a shitty reason like a 'townslip' instead of the merits of my own play let me enjoy a moment near the sun nefore I get fried.

Fair enough about skitter's VLA.

@M&M - what were you expecting from town!Imp and scum!Imp reacting to your push?
And where is your PP townread coming from if he wasn't even posting in that period?

[BuJaber]

I don't have a problem with gamma's wagon being on gamma, but as opposed to the wagon on PP, I don't trust the people on it.

[BuJaber]

Frankly; I just copied and pasted my old read list and moved Gamma up, but totally forgot about that townslip of yours. That said, I won't put you at the very top for <reasons>.

Also, I am still ignoring that question you quoted. Capiche?

{Creature, Gamma}
{BuJaber, skitter}
{implosion, Cmod}
{Spooghetioso, M & M}<===neutral/null
{N_M}
{PP}
{LB, Carca}

Yeah you better ignore it thug

For some reason I thought creature was voting PP. Hence my statement.

I think PP v Imp is good for the game though. Likely TvS but possibly TvT and this is a good way to know which is which.

So like go on tell each other how ugly you think the other is or something

[BuJaber]

Oh snap

[BuJaber]

It's not like creature did the same exact thing as you or anything.. that vote of his totally came unexpected he totally had you as conftown just like you did on gamma right?

[BuJaber]

I know this is my first game with you but you seem like you have higher BoP.

It's not fair, but creature needs to explain less.

But I'm just being an ass for the hell of it I don't actually have a point.

I just townread creature and I don't townread you so I'm being manipulated by feelings.

Objectively speaking your argument is better than creatures. Not to say it's necessarily good just better. But mafia isn't an objective game.

If you're scum doesn't matter how good your argument is we need to lynch you.

[BuJaber]

I don't like how you pushed gamma when you did. He seemed kinda townie at the time. Your reasons were based on vague meta. You sounded like you weren't even sure of yourself.

Then there's the connectuon between you and imp in my mind where you were both making the same type of weak pushes that don't sound genuine and forceful. But the way you unteract I find it hard to imagine you two being a team. So I'm inclined to join a wagon on 1 of you.

I also don't agree with your NM read so I'm choosing his side over yours

[BuJaber]

If uncertain why shade a person that early anyway?

NOT having an opinion on someone actively posting after like a day phase is scummy. But nobody would give you shit for not forming an opinion on people that barely produced content in the first 10 pages. You chose to mention and start voting there and it was definitely after RVS.

And choice of target can be indicative.
The same uncertainty while presenting a case against say A50 is different.
NM is always going to be low impact lynch and mislynch bait.
Gamma is much higher impact but can also be mislynch bait.

When you called NM scum he started deathtunneling you. You continue to think that is indicative of scum!NM?
I don't expect town!NM to be right all the time. I just expect you to townread his hardon for your lynch.

[BuJaber]

I'm sorry about the attitude earlier. That had nothing to do with the game and it's not fair of me to bring it into the game.

[BuJaber]

Okay I was trying to find the post where you and implosion exchabge opinions on gamma's meta and agree together and vote him together to show you why I don't really buy that you could be TvT.

But I apparently imagined all that.

So now you're only scummy for pushing NM and for being the wagon with the most townreads on it.
Implosion is scummy for his push on gamma and then for being one of the votes on me.
Gamma is scummy for soft defended implosion and his push on me.
Skitter VLA gives her a lot of benefit of the doubt.. but statistically at least one of the votes on me was scum so she has to be in the pool.

I'm lynching one of those.
PP let's talk some more tomorrow if you're town there's a chance I'll be able to see it.

Or you can take a shortcut and vote for implo and I'll switch over (sheeping random people without explanation is much more likely to come from town than scum. And I could tell you this and if you do it you would still be more likely to be town than scum imo - it just looks so terrible that scum wouldn't do it lest they have to keep answering it for it the whole game).

Because I don't care about RC's fake push. Didn't change my mind on Imp.

Pedit.. ehhh I'll answer in a separate post

[BuJaber]

If uncertain why shade a person that early anyway?

How do you propose I sort players if I don't push people I have reason to put on the scum spectrum and see what comes of it? Regardless of the certainty I have, you have to start somewhere.

NOT having an opinion on someone actively posting after like a day phase is scummy. But nobody would give you shit for not forming an opinion on people that barely produced content in the first 10 pages. You chose to mention and start voting there and it was definitely after RVS.

I firmly disagree. I doubt I'm going to have a (good) opinion on several slots by the end of day 1. I hate day 1. But again, I start with doing the above to help sort.

And choice of target can be indicative.
The same uncertainty while presenting a case against say A50 is different.
NM is always going to be low impact lynch and mislynch bait.
Gamma is much higher impact but can also be mislynch bait.

Agree, but also disagree here. As scum, I would not want to go after "mislynch bait" in RVS or the short time after. Early D1 wagons almost never lead to a lynch because there is not enough information to seriously push them early in the day. Take my wagon for example. The support for it is "Derp!Tunnel"; "You voted N_M"; "I should townread you by now, but I don't despite you being v/la for half the time I should be townreading you"; "No reason." Solid logic. If my wagon gets pushed through based on that, town deserves to lose this.

When you called NM scum he started deathtunneling you. You continue to think that is indicative of scum!NM?

He actually locked into his tunnel on me before that. And, I've only seen scum!N_M once, but over the several town!N_M games I've played with him, I haven't seen him play like this. As I said earlier though, I'm not concerned with him today.

I don't expect town!NM to be right all the time. I just expect you to townread his hardon for your lynch.

See previous comment. Why should I townread his derp!tunnel when I've never seen him do that as town before?

Okay so the top parts are about what you would and wouldn't push day 1. I guess we play a little difference. I base a lot of shit on day 1. I'm not certain of my individual reads but I tend to scumread certain parts of day 1 dialogue and then just assume that 1 of the people talking in that part of day 1 must be scum. It'd be stupid if that's all I do but since I do that while also trying to engage people when I can, I find it to be a valuable tool. Any conversation between 2 or more parties that involves scum will generally just

feel

wrong. I try to find something like that. This game I haven't picked up on anything specific section but I find the way my wagon formed to be particularly scummy. At the same time, carcalilu stuck out like a sore thumb when she was the only one townreading me publicly at the same time despite not playing with me before. So I don't think I'll be able to townread her ever this game without an inno from conf cop but she's not the scummiest person around at the moment I just don't see myself townreading her anytime soon.

That was a very long winded way of saying that yes because I personally put a lot of stock on d1 I subconsciously expect that from others also. I take every vote and case presented seriously even on d1.

I guess I can understand you wanting to start somewhere but knowing NM is he really the best person to engage? How do you imagine a vote on him will help you become more certain of your reads. Solely on the reactions of others?


Second part of your post talks about NM: fair enough. For the record I've seen this sort of confidence from town!NM in at least 1 game that I recall. It was a townread and it turned out to be on scum, but he feels very similar here with his scumread on you. He also in the game where I (as town) led the mislynch on him on d1 was posting quite a lot of stuff some not even relevant to the game without giving reasons so I don't think high post count alone could be a scum tell for him. Guess you sounded pretty confident of your meta read and I figured you would have seen an example of that. But maybe they were flukes and/or both of us need more games with him before we meta read him.

[BuJaber]

Fine I'll VOTE: gamma but only because there's a chance RC gets confirmed soon and if he does get confirmed maybe I can trust his imp read for the time being.

[BuJaber]

@gmma - Why would my reaction make a difference though?

You stating you weren't outside your scumrange makes imp look better regardless of my reaction.

[BuJaber]

A28 - remember twin trap? I'm happy enough with your reasoning to treat it like a guilty. Can we hold off on LB and hit other scum first?

[BuJaber]

Cmod - For me it's not about the player. If creature had claimed n1 doc who would protect you I'd have told you to investigate creature. It just makes the most mechanical sense to investigate M&M right now.

Pedit - yeah well your stance is known, now have an impactful vote

[BuJaber]

this comes from town nearly all the time imo

Which part? Asking if it's normal to have 2 N1 docs? Or asking who he should investigate?

[BuJaber]

Fine I'll VOTE: gamma but only because there's a chance RC gets confirmed soon and if he does get confirmed maybe I can trust his imp read for the time being.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: gamma

[BuJaber]

Sorry that wasn't meant to be emphasis or something like that just that it was missed the first time.

[BuJaber]

Why is CM1’s alignment being question in the first place, and by whom?

I don't know it anybody is

I just asked skitter for clarification for what part she's townreading.

RC and Imp are just making their read on him clear.

[BuJaber]

RC how aligned are your and Postie's reads now?

And what does she (he?) think about your whole lynching/copping/leashing/EV stuff?

Also how do you expect to have it both ways? Why should you dictate lynches before getting conftowned?

Like if you want people to read you as town without using a cop on you you'd have to wait for that to happen and then be okay with knowing you will have only a slightly higher influence on lynches than anyone else.

Or you can be copped and conftowned and then have a significant influence over lynches compared to anyone else.

You're being too greedy and/or wishful with your expectations from us. You can't be treated as IC who isn't really IC (so scum won't be forced to kill), who also dictates lynches but can't be copped in a game with at least 4 cop shots, all in the same game.

I think I have the advantage of not seeing your scum game and frankly I don't even remember your town meta from our completed games so I'm not as paranoid about you as some of the others.

So like on the face of it I have no clue if you would be this outrageous as scum right from the word 'Go'. But if cmod doesn't cop you or if you don't protect cmod then the whole plan falls apart with regard to the 3 claims today.

So let's hear an alternate. If cmod doesn't cop you, who should he cop? Who should you doc? Who should A50 doc? And why?

[BuJaber]

Creature we don't need another NM can you explain the carca read?

[BuJaber]

This page isn't enough.

Not for me

But more importantly, unless you're from the future you can't use this page to explain a read you posted in a previous page

[BuJaber]

Is it boring knowing all the answers?

[BuJaber]

Almost50 you know I'm only scumreading you because your associatives with double flipped scum are really bad?
I actually have zero opinion on your current play otherwise.

You were doing fine before this. This post reads apologetic. Fuck your read accuracy. The only statistic that matters is winrate. You could have 100% read accuracy and lose every game. Because this isn't a free for all this is a cooperative game. Scummates can screw you over and townies can ignore you.

What the heck was so townie about their reactions to your case that makes you actually step back?
Literally each one of the 3 just laughed. That was their big proof that you're wrong.

I'm not saying you're right about any one of them. Their allignment is irrelevant to my point. My point is if you, like you claim, push wagons to get reactions and sort the game that way then follow throigh with it. Barely anyone had a chance to react. Even the 3 people you pushed barely sweat before you stopped. What did this achieve?
If you think you can accurately townread how they reacted I don't believe you because it was NAI at best. If you think you gained anything useful from others I'm pretty disappointed because only a few people had the chance to even react.

Where is NM now?
Why is PP turning into NM?
I don't know how to read sphaggooti. He's ruining my favorite pasta. I kinda don't buy the newbie act either but lol at the town that thinks that's a good lynch in a content rich day 1 with this playerbase. We only have a max of 6 cops. We can't check every problem slot and even if we did the cop claimer could be lying. Some people we'll have to apply NK-test on them. Some we'll just have to lynch if enough people scumread them even if the reads are not very strong. If sphaggetti endgames as scum we all suck and his flip gives us no associatives. He's like an NM lynch but even worse because he actually might be new. Not that being new doesn't mean he can't be scum he claims he knows the game and his posting is surprisingly lacking in game-related stuff. BUT he's still a shitty lynch.

I'm less sure of my A50 townread at the moment. His relaxed passive approach has crossed the "too much" line into possible scummy "lurking without actually lurking".
Generally speaking I would townread that page 1 claim, but then when he started saying that skitter/buj/others would have figured out his intention it came off to me like a way to buddy us you know? The explanation for the claim could have easily been made up after the fact. I think he was being truthful the first time. His claim was simply stated to be intentionally open to interpretation by both scum and town so as not to be obvious. There are both town and scum motivation to do so and I think that was the point it wasn't supposed to be NAI because it's staying true to A50 meta. If he was actually just wanting a n1 cop claim to complete his plan then why didn't this explanation come directly following cmod's claim? Why did it take so long?

Penguin.. which one of your friends is scum?

I actually want to try something here.

I AM TREATING RC AS LOCKTOWN.

100% read confidence there.

Here's where I am:
{Me, RC}
{creature, cmod}
{NM}
{A50, PP, skitter} --- nullish town
{Nick, sphaggeti} --- nullish scum
{Carca, imp, gamma}

RC don't be weak .. lynch someone who matters.

[BuJaber]

Sorry Postie I know how that looks it wasn't my intention to belittle your contribution. Part of why I am townreading the hydra is what RC is saying about you and your thoughts.

I'll do my best to refer to y'all as M&M from now on.

[BuJaber]

@mod - I have to work over the weekend. I don't expect to disappear completely but I'll declare V/LA until sunday night just in case.

[BuJaber]

I'm now only the eighth highest poster this a disaster, how could you take this away from me RC?

What about the other 6?

Also please do read.. there's some good stuff. We need opinions. You gotta step up. NM 2.0. What do you think of PP now? Skitter? A50?
Give us a readlist.
You're a veteran who acts like you don't know anything. Sphaggeti is claiming he doesn't know anything. You might be one of the best people to read him because of that. What do you think?

[BuJaber]

Cmod please still cop RC.

A50 and M&Ms claims are on the line. Plus if you inno M&M cops can protect him. At a very minimum it will put scum in an awkward position of trying to guess which night have docs.

[BuJaber]

Also the paranoia surrounding him is creating a bottlenecked game state.
Everyone is so concerned with M&M. There's 12 other players. But the beauty is everyone townreads cmod it's going to be hard for scum to discredit either of you if you claim an inno on M&M.

[BuJaber]

i am sorry for ruining your pasta bujaber but spaghetti is really nice so you should not stop liking it just because i am bad at this game

No worries it was a joke

[BuJaber]

Who are you considering my friends?

It was easier than typing which one of the people you played with that I haven't played with / don't know much about are scum:

Implosion
Carcalily
M&M - don't know postie, know RC but not really well because I either die early or he/I replaced out or whatever. I think we played a newbie once long ago.
Skitter - I know her well enough I'd just like to know what you think

[BuJaber]

Oh add nick cage

[BuJaber]

It was easier than typing which one of the people you played with that I haven't played with / don't know much about are scum:

[BuJaber]

My bad

[BuJaber]

@carca - nah it must be your eyes that are beautiful

Regarding M&M : I was going to exaggerate and paraphrase his egoposting in a humorous way but I don't have time so the reason I believe he's town is that I feel scum typically approach doing things for towncred/WIFOM as a sort of subconcious checklist where it's like they do something just so it's out there in the record. There isn't a reason to keep doing it where it's visible in almost every post. There's like this element of RC's overconfidence in his game and reads that feels like he's daring people to prove him wrong by flipping. I don't think scum are going to go that far. I don't think scum!RC would lay out a bunch of mislynches in a row when he knows that by his own encouragement town wouldn't listen to him if he's wrong. So what would be the endgame? Avoiding getting copped? Doubtful because evrn if cmod sticks to his guns and refuses to cop him other cops will eventually.

So the only thing that could make sense is if he's bussing the shit out of his teammates and like if he is it'll be good for town to sheep him and then lynch later.

Like I think he would have naturally stopped inflating his self worth earlier in the game as scum because if his motive is to fake townie confidence then he would have achieved that already. Plus the element of putting all his eggs in pretty much 1 basket. Threre is an inherent subtext in his posts of someone who knows he won't live long.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: nick of the cage

There's a clear winner of the 1v1 between him and PP.

[BuJaber]

MM are you scumreading sphagetti or not? Because I'm 80% sure you mean you scumread him very strongly but then I don't really know what you're saying.

[BuJaber]

N2 doc claim is probably the scummiest claim you could have at this point in the game.

But I kinda think PP is town from our dialogue and from the 1v1 with nick.

Vote nick

[BuJaber]

Good Game everyone

[BuJaber]

Weirdly enough the thing that made me happiest was NM flipping town.
Okay that's a lie catching scum was #1.

Pedit: yes I'm sure mod will open it soon.

[BuJaber]

I don't know.. I was pretty confident of it here but it's like I get it right twice and then I think I'm in tune with his meta and then the 3rd time it's a curveball.

[BuJaber]

All 4 of you that voted me ended up being town that was so weird but at least it led me to scumread Carca.

@krazy: you seemed pretty active as scum in our last game. I personally wouldn't have applied an activity-based read on you.

@Gamma - have you started given less shit about the game as town? I don't consider you a player I can read well but I've noticed a lack of 'fire' lately and it's been making me leanscum on you every time.
Fwiw though I wouldn't have gone through all that complex train of thought if I didn't also scumread Imp. So it's less about your scum range and more about me misreading some interactions this game involving Imp, PP, you. At least with PP I correctly changed my read when I engaged him a little. Couldn't shake the paranoia with you though.

@A50 - can I get that answer about my scum meta now?

PR draw was townsided.