Lynching

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Lynching

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:52 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

So, this popped up in the T-shirt thread but it's probably best discussed in its own thread.

The suggestion was that we should have a different word to describe our current "lynch" system.

I decided to look up the etymology for this word, because surely lynching has occurred for a long time, but I can't seem to find any source outside of a connection to
linch
that nobody seems to believe. All sources seem to reference William Lynch and Lynch Law. Seemingly, its use is based in early American prejudice and vigilantism.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (1992)

Lynch law n.
The punishment of persons suspected of crime without due process of law. [After William Lynch (died 1820).]
WORD HISTORY:
“Whereas, many of the inhabitants of Pittsylvania... have sustained great and intolerable losses by a set of lawless men... that... have hitherto escaped the civil power with impunity... we, the subscribers, being determined to put a stop to the iniquitous practices of those unlawful and abandoned wretches, do enter into the following association... upon hearing or having sufficient reason to believe that any... species of villany [has] been committed within our neighborhood, we will forthwith... repair immediately to the person or persons suspected... and if they will not desist from their evil practices, we will inflict such corporeal punishment on him or them, as to us shall seem adequate to the crime committed or the damage sustained... In witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands, this 22nd day of September 1780.” These are the words of a compact drawn up by Captain William Lynch and a group of his neighbors. At the time, Pittsylvania County, Virginia, was troubled by its “set of lawless men.” The courts were too distant to deal with them, so it was agreed to punish criminals without due process of law. Both the practice and the punishment came to be called lynch law after Captain Lynch. Although lynch law and lynching are mainly associated with hanging, other, less severe punishments were used. William Lynch died in 1820, and the inscription on his grave notes that “he followed virtue as his truest guide.” But the good captain, who certainly hadn’t invented vigilante justice, yet had tried to justify it, was sentenced to the disgrace of having given his name to the terrible practice of lynching.

Wikipedia: William Lynch speech

Do we need to talk Mafiascum?
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Post Post #5 (isolation #1) » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:16 am

Post by Lycanfire »

In post 1, Gamma Emerald wrote:Keep in mind the modern day interpretation of the word is tied to racism
There doesn't seem to be
any
literary record of the word lynch before 1782. In this context, it was used for in the sense of some very
tenuous
(read: likely racially motivated) vigilante justice. It's been passed on that William Lynch made a speech in 1712 (above) that was entirely dealing with controlling the slave population.

I think the main takeaway is, no matter which origin you believe to be true, this word is relatively new and didn't necessarily refer to the act of hanging somebody. It's firmly rooted in vigilante justice-at least-what the perpetrators believed to be justice. I think this point alone makes it agreeable that the word in its original meaning ("lynch law" e.g. William and Charles Lynch) does not compliment what our meaning of
lynch
is, and the colloquial meaning (to hang) is racially charged.
In post 4, Nero Cain wrote:I mean, in today's society walking around wearing a t-shirt with the word lynch on it (or sentenced to death) is prob not the best idea
"I like hanging with my friends @ mafiascum.net" is probably a good slogan.

It's wordy and long, I guess something like

___I like hanging
__with my friends


_____@
MafiaScum.net


would do as a full-back design

or even some derivative like, "hanging out @ mafiascum.net" would be good, too

just no ropes.
Last edited by Lycanfire on Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post Post #16 (isolation #2) » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:48 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

I made this thread as a dialogue, and not as a poll or petition. I did this because I wasn't convinced until I looked at multiple sources for the word
lynch
, and also because if my sources were correct, I couldn't think of a good name to replace it, anyway.

To reiterate: my point is that sources indicate the etymology of the word lynch is rooted in the concept "lynch law" which is either attributed to William Lynch, who if accounts are believed, definitely advocated it to control a slave population, or Charles Lynch, who had a potentially racist motive; lynch in this case means vigilantism in a broad spectrum, and not just the act of execution as we interpret it. It's my conclusion is that even in the best case, the word doesn't make much sense, and if it's making sense, we ought to check on our bed sheets.

Furthermore there's no rule that says a "lynch" has to happen in the day phase. Mafia as a game (what separates it from other social games) advocates an abstract version of a lynch mechanic. There's precedent of other words being used, especially in theme games, or no lynch mechanic at all, though without care that blurs the line between Mafia and a variant.

From the games not archived we have:
Bad Idea Mafia - uses day killing instead of lynching [mechanics+flavor]
Echo Bay Grits SEO - uses day killing instead of lynching [mechanics+flavor]
Only YOU Can Prevent Forest Fires VII - modified day killing ("prevention") instead of lynching [mechanics+flavor]
Only YOU Can Prevent Forest Fires VIII - modified day killing ("prevention") instead of lynching [mechanics+flavor]

I'd wager most people could remember a game they've come across that didn't use the word "lynch" in favor of another word, too.

The most official body Mafiascum has that decides "what Mafia is" is the NRG, and I'd imagine they'd roll their eyes at a meaningless question, such as, "can I change all references to lynching in my game to exile?" There's having rules ("pre-made PMs") then there's being a stick in the mud over a single word that isn't even constant throughout mafia.

What takeaway I'm trying to present with this post is that the "lynch" mechanic itself is an abstract one. If game mods find the word "lynch" to be in some way repugnant, they can choose another one. I'm not advocating a site rule binding this practice. As far as I can tell we have no record of somebody voicing concern about the community or for the community to use this word in a racially charged matter. It's my opinion that nobody has done anything wrong, because the community was negligent regarding the meaning of the word, and meant no ill-will in its use.
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Post Post #29 (isolation #3) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:16 am

Post by Lycanfire »

In post 20, yessiree wrote:what if people start expressing discomfort with the idea of getting murdered in their sleep? use euphemism for that term too?

imo lynching is fine under the context of forum mafia, and there is no need to change it just because it can be interpreted with negative connotations while under completely different contexts
I don't have any words for a proper response. Instead I'll ask you to ask yourself why you're so intent on picking a bad position and defending it.

This might help you along the way

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe
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Post Post #45 (isolation #4) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:34 am

Post by Lycanfire »

I'd rather hear Ectomancer's opinion on the subject beyond a youtube video

I'm not looking to find racism or oppression where there isn't any. I've already stated ITT that I haven't observed a case of anyone using the word 'lynch' in a racially charged manner, or anyone passing the site over because of the word, though, in the case of the latter they'd have to care enough to make a post here, or we would never know, you know, because they wouldn't be here.
In post 38, shortaru wrote:I mean, was anybody on this site even alive during the times of the KKK's heyday and commonplace lynching of black people?

If this were, say, the 70's, I'd totally get it... but it's been over fifty years.

I don't mean to minimize anyone's suffering, especially on a racial level. I just don't understand the sudden offense being taken out of the blue over a term that has been used for, what, a decade or so in this game?
What is the origin of the word lynch?
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Post Post #55 (isolation #5) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:46 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

Can we take a moment to recognize that shortaru signed up to the site yesterday, claims to have never played forum mafia and decided to squat in this thread without reading the OP?

It's like they made the other posts on their account as an excuse to be in this thread. James3 alt? I'll hear any of you out, but this person doesn't have good motives here.
Last edited by Lycanfire on Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #59 (isolation #6) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:15 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

It doesn't matter if you're an alt, a troll, or somebody that is legitimately trying to contribute to the thread.

The problem is that half of all your contributions on this site has been in this thread, the third thread you decided to take part in, where you have launched yourself into the discussion with strong opinions when you supposedly have limited experience (app only) with mafia. In fact, I found this out from a post of yours in a different thread. It would have been helpful if you dropped in here something like-

"I started playing mafia through <MAFIA APP> in this app they also use LYNCHING. This app has <THIS MANY DOWNLOADS>. As far as I can tell there has been no criticism of this decision in the play/app store comments"

I'd consider this to be posting in
good faith
.

... but I can't actually know any of this, because I don't know what app you're talking about or if any of that were true.

Instead I think you're arguing in bad faith. Here's what you've said-
In post 38, shortaru wrote:I mean, was anybody on this site even alive during the times of the KKK's heyday and commonplace lynching of black people?

If this were, say, the 70's, I'd totally get it... but it's been over fifty years.

I don't mean to minimize anyone's suffering, especially on a racial level. I just don't understand the sudden offense being taken out of the blue over a term that has been used for, what, a decade or so in this game?
In post 47, shortaru wrote:Counterpoint: Blockbuster is used today to describe a hit release in the entertainment industry.

What is its origin?

Edit: if you want something more racially charged to compare to the origin of lynch, research the origin of blue blood.
This amounts to "racism is over, also, if this word happened to be racist in origin, words change somehow"

When I asked you about the origin of the word, you made the blockbuster remark, then came back with this
In post 54, shortaru wrote:Apparently, CHARLES Lynch, NOT William Lynch, has the better claim on the origin of "Lynch Law".
Charles Lynch (1736–1796) was a Virginia planter and American Revolutionary who headed a county court in Virginia which incarcerated Loyalist supporters of the British for up to one year during the war. While he lacked proper jurisdiction, he claimed this right by arguing wartime necessity. Subsequently, he prevailed upon his friends in the Congress of the Confederation to pass a law that exonerated him and his associates from wrongdoing. He was concerned that he might face legal action from one or more of those so incarcerated, even though the American Colonies had won the war. This action by the Congress provoked controversy, and it was in connection with this that the term "Lynch law", meaning the assumption of extrajudicial authority, came into common parlance in the United States. Lynch was not accused of racist bias. He acquitted blacks accused of murder on three separate occasions.
... but I've already covered this. I said it may or may not be more credible that it was attributed to Charles Lynch

There's two cases involved

A----------------------B
Charles---------------William
Vigilante justice-------killing

If A, does "lynch" actually mean hang or kill, as it does in the context mafia uses it? In my opinion, no, as vigilante justice is a vague term. It could be applied to any crime. See theft for example: it could mean something like seizure of goods or loss of hands, both common punishments for theft in this time. If B, it was certainly directed upon a slave population. Even assuming Charles Lynch never used this "justice" in a racially charged manner, I argue it doesn't really make sense as a word, and made it's way in because somebody, just like myself, didn't understand the term, and it stuck. I'm not saying anyone has done anything wrong, I just don't think it makes sense to use.
Last edited by Lycanfire on Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #65 (isolation #7) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:31 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

In post 60, shortaru wrote:You're the one that brought up origin of the word, I was responding directly to that inquiry as it appears that Charles was the basis for the term.
You presented post 54 as some kind of "gotcha", seemingly unaware that considerations were already made regarding Charles Lynch and the possible origin of the related word.
In post 60, shortaru wrote:That doesn't mean I ever, in any way, condoned the practice of racially motivated murder. I don't..
Yes, I don't think you have some nefarious interest in keeping some vestige of a possibly-repugnant word in the "know" of some minor party game.

It's classic troll behavior to sign up to a website, put your finger on the pulse of it and identify what topic has the potential to cause the most drama. It's even more telling when that user doesn't seem to care about existing content. What I do think is that you don't care about what anyone has to say here.
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Post Post #71 (isolation #8) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:07 pm

Post by Lycanfire »

In post 48, Ectomancer wrote:
In post 45, Lycanfire wrote:I'd rather hear Ectomancer's opinion on the subject beyond a youtube video
Okay. So let's start with my ancestor who was a slave in the 1840's and move along to my sister who is more than half black. My step-father and brothers-in-laws and ever increasing numbers of nieces and nephews who are some percentage or another who have all experienced racism in various forms during my lifetime that I have witnessed firsthand. So I grew up in both white and black culture. Racism is real and systemic in American culture even to this day. I rage against it whenever it affects the lives and opportunities of my family. It should be fought anywhere that it raises its ugly head.

This isn't it.
I've been viewing it more as some kind of accident that made its way into the mafia vernacular speech. I'd be interested in finding earlier sources of online mafia than GL to see the terms used. I don't think anyone has used this term on this site with racism in mind just like how I don't believe that there are racists in this thread. It's understandable that people wouldn't want a broad change in how mafia is flavored, because I felt the same "resist-change" impulse from the T-shirt thread. I'm neither saying it should be enforced or whether the flavor should be anything more than better than it is now.
In post 53, Psyche wrote:
In post 49, Irrelephant11 wrote:Is there a reason some onsite
want
to use the word "lynch"? If site meta was that we all already used a different word, would you advocate we switch to use "lynch"?
Is there any other word out there that means “extrajudicial mob killing”? And isn’t that exactly the mythos underlying the game’s day phases?
I thought
lynch
simply meant extrajudicial hanging and never thought much beyond that. My first response was that this must be an old word so it didn't matter if it happened to be co-opted in the phenomenon known in the United States. It seems like the word is closely related to those hate crimes.

Most references I can find related to "extrajudicial justice" in the context of killing seems to point to "murder" (lone wolf) or "execution" (agreed upon by a group).
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