Lynching

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Post Post #50  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:23 pm

In post 49, Irrelephant11 wrote:I appreciate that your experiences give you a unique perspective, but knowing black people or even being black yourself does not make you a sole arbiter of racism
Not here to argue about defining racism, just saying that it's not up to you solely.


My opinion is as valid as yours. Are you trying to repress my ability to express my own feelings on this matter? You didn't like being called a victim. I don't appreciate your dismissive attitude simply because you don't like what I had to say. I didn't seek to undermine your own position. I posted a video that expresses very well the issue with censorship, which is what you advocate. I was asked to give my own personal opinion beyond the context of the video. If you want me to listen to your point of view then show the same courtesy to me.

Is there a reason some onsite want to use the word "lynch"? If site meta was that we all already used a different word, would you advocate we switch to use "lynch"?


It must be because we are racist? /sarcasm :roll:
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Post Post #51  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:35 pm

No, I am not trying to repress anything. It seemed like you were appealing to your experiences as a reason your opinion should be regarded more highly than most; my response is that your experiences, while fascinating and worthwhile, do not elevate or lower the weight of your opinion. I have not advocated for censorship, and if you re-read my posts you will find I do not encourage any sort of enforced censorship, I am only expressing my discomfort and letting others know how they could reduce my discomfort.

I am sorry you felt I was dismissing your opinion. I didn't intend to, and I do not want your opinion dismissed. I only want to keep all our opinions on a level playing field.

My second question is not a trick - I don't expect anyone to say "Yes, because I am racist" and I do not intend to "trap" anyone into saying something similar so I can attack them (as many on the internet would seek to do). I am only seeking in earnest to understand why some prefer the word "lynch": is it because it is what this site has used for many years, or another reason? Thus my question.

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Post Post #52  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:59 pm

I’m black too and raised in the deep south where lynchings were once common but I’ve never thought the word “lynch” was anything but a really apt description of what happens in mafia games. The notion that the word is *always* racially charged no matter how it’s used has only been introduced to me within the last year or so and honestly seems only brought up seriously by non-black people. I don’t really get what all this is about.
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Post Post #53  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:05 pm

In post 49, Irrelephant11 wrote:Is there a reason some onsite want to use the word "lynch"? If site meta was that we all already used a different word, would you advocate we switch to use "lynch"?

Is there any other word out there that means “extrajudicial mob killing”? And isn’t that exactly the mythos underlying the game’s day phases?
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Post Post #54  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:23 pm

Apparently, CHARLES Lynch, NOT William Lynch, has the better claim on the origin of "Lynch Law".

Charles Lynch (1736–1796) was a Virginia planter and American Revolutionary who headed a county court in Virginia which incarcerated Loyalist supporters of the British for up to one year during the war. While he lacked proper jurisdiction, he claimed this right by arguing wartime necessity. Subsequently, he prevailed upon his friends in the Congress of the Confederation to pass a law that exonerated him and his associates from wrongdoing. He was concerned that he might face legal action from one or more of those so incarcerated, even though the American Colonies had won the war. This action by the Congress provoked controversy, and it was in connection with this that the term "Lynch law", meaning the assumption of extrajudicial authority, came into common parlance in the United States. Lynch was not accused of racist bias. He acquitted blacks accused of murder on three separate occasions.
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Post Post #55  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:46 pm

Can we take a moment to recognize that shortaru signed up to the site yesterday, claims to have never played forum mafia and decided to squat in this thread without reading the OP?

It's like they made the other posts on their account as an excuse to be in this thread. James3 alt? I'll hear any of you out, but this person doesn't have good motives here.
Last edited by Lycanfire on Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post Post #56  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:47 pm

I'm signed up in the Newbie Queue and pre-inned for Boon's game, both done long before I touched this thread tyvm.
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Post Post #57  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:49 pm

Also, how is anything I said even remotely negative?
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Post Post #58  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:54 pm

In post 55, Lycanfire wrote:Can we take a moment to recognize that shortaru signed up to the site yesterday, claims to have never played forum mafia and decided to squat in this thread without reading the OP?

It's like the made the other posts on their account as an excuse to be in this thread. James3 alt? I'll hear any of you out, but this person doesn't have good motives here.


I reported your post to the mod team and asked them to investigate your claim so they can assure you that I'm not this James3 person you're calling me.

If this is going to be a recurring issue simply for disagreeing with people and posting supporting facts, I'll stick to theory/mechanics.
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Post Post #59  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:15 pm

It doesn't matter if you're an alt, a troll, or somebody that is legitimately trying to contribute to the thread.

The problem is that half of all your contributions on this site has been in this thread, the third thread you decided to take part in, where you have launched yourself into the discussion with strong opinions when you supposedly have limited experience (app only) with mafia. In fact, I found this out from a post of yours in a different thread. It would have been helpful if you dropped in here something like-

"I started playing mafia through <MAFIA APP> in this app they also use LYNCHING. This app has <THIS MANY DOWNLOADS>. As far as I can tell there has been no criticism of this decision in the play/app store comments"

I'd consider this to be posting in good faith.

... but I can't actually know any of this, because I don't know what app you're talking about or if any of that were true.

Instead I think you're arguing in bad faith. Here's what you've said-

In post 38, shortaru wrote:I mean, was anybody on this site even alive during the times of the KKK's heyday and commonplace lynching of black people?

If this were, say, the 70's, I'd totally get it... but it's been over fifty years.

I don't mean to minimize anyone's suffering, especially on a racial level. I just don't understand the sudden offense being taken out of the blue over a term that has been used for, what, a decade or so in this game?


In post 47, shortaru wrote:Counterpoint: Blockbuster is used today to describe a hit release in the entertainment industry.

What is its origin?

Edit: if you want something more racially charged to compare to the origin of lynch, research the origin of blue blood.


This amounts to "racism is over, also, if this word happened to be racist in origin, words change somehow"

When I asked you about the origin of the word, you made the blockbuster remark, then came back with this

In post 54, shortaru wrote:Apparently, CHARLES Lynch, NOT William Lynch, has the better claim on the origin of "Lynch Law".

Charles Lynch (1736–1796) was a Virginia planter and American Revolutionary who headed a county court in Virginia which incarcerated Loyalist supporters of the British for up to one year during the war. While he lacked proper jurisdiction, he claimed this right by arguing wartime necessity. Subsequently, he prevailed upon his friends in the Congress of the Confederation to pass a law that exonerated him and his associates from wrongdoing. He was concerned that he might face legal action from one or more of those so incarcerated, even though the American Colonies had won the war. This action by the Congress provoked controversy, and it was in connection with this that the term "Lynch law", meaning the assumption of extrajudicial authority, came into common parlance in the United States. Lynch was not accused of racist bias. He acquitted blacks accused of murder on three separate occasions.


... but I've already covered this. I said it may or may not be more credible that it was attributed to Charles Lynch

There's two cases involved

A----------------------B
Charles---------------William
Vigilante justice-------killing

If A, does "lynch" actually mean hang or kill, as it does in the context mafia uses it? In my opinion, no, as vigilante justice is a vague term. It could be applied to any crime. See theft for example: it could mean something like seizure of goods or loss of hands, both common punishments for theft in this time. If B, it was certainly directed upon a slave population. Even assuming Charles Lynch never used this "justice" in a racially charged manner, I argue it doesn't really make sense as a word, and made it's way in because somebody, just like myself, didn't understand the term, and it stuck. I'm not saying anyone has done anything wrong, I just don't think it makes sense to use.
Last edited by Lycanfire on Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Post #60  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:20 pm

You're the one that brought up origin of the word, I was responding directly to that inquiry as it appears that Charles was the basis for the term.

That doesn't mean I ever, in any way, condoned the practice of racially motivated murder. I don't.
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Post Post #61  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:22 pm

And my other post about the origins of Blockbuster and blue blood was simply to point out that the use of offensive terms have the ability to evolve over time.
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Post Post #62  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:23 pm

Personally calling it murder death kill and saying "it takes x to murder death kill person" reminds everyone that it's a game
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Post Post #63  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:26 pm

In post 62, Alisae wrote:Personally calling it murder death kill and saying "it takes x to murder death kill person" reminds everyone that it's a game


I loved Demolition Man

"What's MDK?"

"*gasp* Murder Death Kill"
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Post Post #64  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:29 pm

And why does the penalty have to be death anyways wynaut "vote for the bad person to learn who they're affiliated with" or "to give candy" or whatever
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Post Post #65  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:31 pm

In post 60, shortaru wrote:You're the one that brought up origin of the word, I was responding directly to that inquiry as it appears that Charles was the basis for the term.


You presented post 54 as some kind of "gotcha", seemingly unaware that considerations were already made regarding Charles Lynch and the possible origin of the related word.

In post 60, shortaru wrote:That doesn't mean I ever, in any way, condoned the practice of racially motivated murder. I don't..


Yes, I don't think you have some nefarious interest in keeping some vestige of a possibly-repugnant word in the "know" of some minor party game.

It's classic troll behavior to sign up to a website, put your finger on the pulse of it and identify what topic has the potential to cause the most drama. It's even more telling when that user doesn't seem to care about existing content. What I do think is that you don't care about what anyone has to say here.

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Post Post #66  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:35 pm

You're toxic.

I don't care to continue in this line of discussion with you.
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Post Post #67  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:38 pm

In post 38, shortaru wrote:I mean, was anybody on this site even alive during the times of the KKK's heyday and commonplace lynching of black people?

If this were, say, the 70's, I'd totally get it... but it's been over fifty years.

I don't mean to minimize anyone's suffering, especially on a racial level. I just don't understand the sudden offense being taken out of the blue over a term that has been used for, what, a decade or so in this game?

It’s been 70 years since WWII and we don’t support people doing the Roman salute (more infamously known as the Nazi salute) do we? That’s not a good argument to make.
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Post Post #68  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:38 pm

Huh no wonder Lycan, the guy who’s so obsessed about a fucking word that BTW, no one seems to have a problem with, is ignoring me. He thinks I’m trolling lmao.

Has someone really came to this site and said “THE USAGE OF THE WORD LYNCH OFFENDS ME”
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Post Post #69  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:43 pm

In post 67, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 38, shortaru wrote:I mean, was anybody on this site even alive during the times of the KKK's heyday and commonplace lynching of black people?

If this were, say, the 70's, I'd totally get it... but it's been over fifty years.

I don't mean to minimize anyone's suffering, especially on a racial level. I just don't understand the sudden offense being taken out of the blue over a term that has been used for, what, a decade or so in this game?

It’s been 70 years since WWII and we don’t support people doing the Roman salute (more infamously known as the Nazi salute) do we? That’s not a good argument to make.


I'm willing to engage you on this if you wish via pm, but I don't want to risk upsetting anyone any further in this thread.
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Post Post #70  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:45 pm

If you want to talk further go ahead but I made my point
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Post Post #71  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:07 pm

In post 48, Ectomancer wrote:
In post 45, Lycanfire wrote:I'd rather hear Ectomancer's opinion on the subject beyond a youtube video


Okay. So let's start with my ancestor who was a slave in the 1840's and move along to my sister who is more than half black. My step-father and brothers-in-laws and ever increasing numbers of nieces and nephews who are some percentage or another who have all experienced racism in various forms during my lifetime that I have witnessed firsthand. So I grew up in both white and black culture. Racism is real and systemic in American culture even to this day. I rage against it whenever it affects the lives and opportunities of my family. It should be fought anywhere that it raises its ugly head.

This isn't it.


I've been viewing it more as some kind of accident that made its way into the mafia vernacular speech. I'd be interested in finding earlier sources of online mafia than GL to see the terms used. I don't think anyone has used this term on this site with racism in mind just like how I don't believe that there are racists in this thread. It's understandable that people wouldn't want a broad change in how mafia is flavored, because I felt the same "resist-change" impulse from the T-shirt thread. I'm neither saying it should be enforced or whether the flavor should be anything more than better than it is now.

In post 53, Psyche wrote:
In post 49, Irrelephant11 wrote:Is there a reason some onsite want to use the word "lynch"? If site meta was that we all already used a different word, would you advocate we switch to use "lynch"?

Is there any other word out there that means “extrajudicial mob killing”? And isn’t that exactly the mythos underlying the game’s day phases?


I thought lynch simply meant extrajudicial hanging and never thought much beyond that. My first response was that this must be an old word so it didn't matter if it happened to be co-opted in the phenomenon known in the United States. It seems like the word is closely related to those hate crimes.

Most references I can find related to "extrajudicial justice" in the context of killing seems to point to "murder" (lone wolf) or "execution" (agreed upon by a group).

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Post Post #72  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:26 pm

In post 51, Irrelephant11 wrote:No, I am not trying to repress anything. It seemed like you were appealing to your experiences as a reason your opinion should be regarded more highly than most; my response is that your experiences, while fascinating and worthwhile, do not elevate or lower the weight of your opinion. I have not advocated for censorship, and if you re-read my posts you will find I do not encourage any sort of enforced censorship, I am only expressing my discomfort and letting others know how they could reduce my discomfort.

I am sorry you felt I was dismissing your opinion. I didn't intend to, and I do not want your opinion dismissed. I only want to keep all our opinions on a level playing field.

My second question is not a trick - I don't expect anyone to say "Yes, because I am racist" and I do not intend to "trap" anyone into saying something similar so I can attack them (as many on the internet would seek to do). I am only seeking in earnest to understand why some prefer the word "lynch": is it because it is what this site has used for many years, or another reason? Thus my question.


Decent answers. I think I won't vote to string you up for you today.

But it is important to understand that I saw an attempt to belittle my opinion with the straw man argument that "just because I know black people or am black...yada yada yada". It is a strawman because being black doesn't mean that you have experienced racism. That strategy won't help to elevate the strength of your own arguments. Nor does your taking offense at the word elevate your opinion above mine that it isn't a racist term on this site and is as apt a term as any other.

And by the way, telling someone who has seen and experienced racism firsthand and secondhand growing up in Florida, Alabama, and Mississippi that those experiences don't elevate or lower the weight of their opinion on racism itself is akin to telling someone who spent 20 years behind bars that their experience doesn't elevate or lower the weight of their opinion on the criminal justice system. Whether you like the idea or not, real life experiences do elevate or lower the weight of someone's opinion. Certainly I would take the opinion of a doctor who has removed an inflamed appendix about my own possible surgery over one who writes prescriptions for head colds. Do you follow that line of reasoning?

@Shortaru - You are on a mafia website. Some simply never stop playing in-game or out of it in threads like this one. Lycanfire isn't trying to be toxic to you. He just never, ever, stops playing mafia and seeking out scum. Personally, I support his line of questioning. I think you are probably town. Just don't clam up or it looks bad on you :P
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Post Post #73  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:30 pm

So... why would anybody care if nobody on site has been using “lynch” in a racially charged manner?

Let me guess... the current political climate changed so we must conform to be as politically correct as possible?
To demonstrate how worthy you are? How progressive you are?

Bullshit

NEWSFLASH: this just in - the game hangman thought to be linked to racism for containing graphical imagery!!!

Why cant we go back to enjoying games - for what they actually are? but no no no no this game is ruined and ABC need to change

If you really want to be an advocate for liberal values, great, why dont you actually do something meaningful in this world instead of bitching about a fucking word thats used in a game on an online forum. What does that actually achieve ffs

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Post Post #74  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:17 am

In post 72, Ectomancer wrote:And by the way, telling someone who has seen and experienced racism firsthand and secondhand growing up in Florida, Alabama, and Mississippi that those experiences don't elevate or lower the weight of their opinion on racism itself is akin to telling someone who spent 20 years behind bars that their experience doesn't elevate or lower the weight of their opinion on the criminal justice system. Whether you like the idea or not, real life experiences do elevate or lower the weight of someone's opinion. Certainly I would take the opinion of a doctor who has removed an inflamed appendix about my own possible surgery over one who writes prescriptions for head colds. Do you follow that line of reasoning?


I don't mean to say your experiences can't make your opinion an informed and useful one. I just think that in this context, where you know nothing about me or (presumably) about most of the other posters, appealing to experience can only raise your opinion from "uninformed" to "informed". I guess that informed opinions should be taken more seriously than uninformed ones, but I suppose I've been assuming everyone who's posting here has an informed view. Maybe I'm mistaken on that point.

Anyway, I do follow your line of reasoning. I just think that in this anonymous context, it's less helpful than normal to try to identify who the "experts" are, especially since people lie on the internet (surprising, I'm sure :P )

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