Boundaries of Reality - [Game Over]


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Post Post #10 (isolation #0) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:08 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 4, SirCakez wrote:WHERE ARE PEOPLE
Present!
Also are we masons in this game?
In post 7, Gamma Emerald wrote:This is my first Alice in Wonderland game
I’m 20% excited, 80% terrified
Wait, is there mod meta on Alice in Wonderland games that I should know about?
Like
Why be terrified?
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Post Post #14 (isolation #1) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:28 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I've played some of FG's wild rides in the touhou flavor, but this game seems much more grounded.
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Post Post #17 (isolation #2) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:43 pm

Post by Varsoon »

VOTE: Marquis

Why so eager to double down on the dunnstrain?
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Post Post #18 (isolation #3) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:45 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 11, DVa wrote:That's fair, although double tank is a solid comp fam.
Sounds like a comp of the past to me. Get with the times, kiddo.
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Post Post #22 (isolation #4) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:54 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 20, Sakura Hana wrote:
In post 17, Varsoon wrote:VOTE: Marquis

Why so eager to double down on the dunnstrain?
More like.
Why not?
VOTE: Dunn
...'cus he hasn't even dunn anything yet
Spoiler: *drumroll*
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Post Post #57 (isolation #5) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:47 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Scum desperado? Shoots anyone any the die? Or do you mean like a scum vig? Seems like giving extra kills to scum which is generally a design faux-pas.

P-EDIT: If scum had high confidence there's a lot of millers in the setup, it makes sense they'd fake as one.
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Post Post #63 (isolation #6) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:50 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Backin' up my girl on this
Calling out alignment cop like that really feels like scum casting a net

VOTE: Nancy Drew 39
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Post Post #64 (isolation #7) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:53 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Same goes for the whole 'how many millers do you think are in this game' kinda thing
Doesn't feel right
Neither does the Dunnstral wagon, either, but, eugh
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Post Post #65 (isolation #8) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:54 pm

Post by Varsoon »

like why are people who flash-wagoned Dunn still on the Dunn wagon post-claim?
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Post Post #68 (isolation #9) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:59 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I have but it's been awhile and my memory when it comes to mafia is spotty as hell
why do you ask?
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Post Post #73 (isolation #10) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:03 pm

Post by Varsoon »

When I played with Nancy Drew, I believe it was a lot closer to their join date so they were still new to the site/mafia, but eeeeeh very vague recollection of what game we were even in or if it was just something I spectated or what
The name is familiar though
I don't believe in things being NAI for a player
that's how you get trust tells
and homie
I know
trust
tells
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Post Post #75 (isolation #11) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:08 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 72, Wisdom wrote:4 so far

Pretty sure miller is the new gunsmith
In post 74, Sakura Hana wrote:Ok yeah I agree with Wis, seems like Miller is the "Repeated" role this time.
I do not get this
explain this
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Post Post #81 (isolation #12) » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:14 pm

Post by Varsoon »

@Nancy Drew:
Were you aware of the mod meta of having repeated roles in these alice games?
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Post Post #137 (isolation #13) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:22 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 118, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 63, Varsoon wrote:Backin' up my girl on this
Calling out alignment cop like that really feels like scum casting a net

VOTE: Nancy Drew 39
No it really doesn’t. In most games - non FG games anyway, a miller/godfather role almost always cooncides with an alignment cop.

So both of you are voting me for silly reasons IMO.
Yeah--and who benefits most from outting an alignment cop (even confirmation one might exist) on D1?

I'm familiar with FG setups, but not Alice setups, for which this seems to be the norm.

I'm interested in SORTING YOU based on YOUR PLAY in THIS GAME, not on self-meta that I take at face-value from someone else. I'm not going to all of a sudden stop being critical because lolmeta.

I have my vote on YOU because I was waiting for YOU to respond to MY PRESSURE. I can't vote the whole fucking wagon (but I can voice my dissatisfaction with it, which I did), and I'd gladly go back to my Marquis vote if you responded in kind, but you've blown up over this with almost a whole page straight of venting over my vote on you and scrambling to justify your position. Is making 10+ posts where you try to justify yourself also NAI?

I'm ignoring 'the chance of X in this setup' because it's fucking D1 in a setup I don't have meta knowledge of--I'm trying to suss out people's alignments and not solve some fucking setup puzzle.

Why are you trying to solve this setup when you know making meta-based assumptions on FG setups has caused you to lose as town in the past?
Why are you leaning so heavily on setup-spec rather than trying to figure out what the various claims and reactions around them mean for player's alignments?
Why are you so turbo-defensive against what is literally just two people voting you?
Why were you so quick to call out me being outspoken against the Dunnstral wagon but not voting there?
^Can you address this while keeping in mind that I do not have multiple votes to spread around at once and that I was voting you--so your criticism of me not having my vote elsewhere looks like you trying to logicbully me off of voting you when I specifically am voting you to back up the voting power of one of my most trusted townreads?
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Post Post #138 (isolation #14) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:23 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 135, Wisdom wrote:
In post 132, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:Desperadoes are essentially dayvigs (of either alignment) except they replace the lynch and do it publically.
Desperados die if they shoot town
I'd also like for Nancy to explain how she thinks a scum desperado would work and why FG would give day-ending vig power to scum.
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Post Post #155 (isolation #15) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:41 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 144, Nancy Drew 39 wrote: A). Outing or eliminating any speculation of there being an alignment cop in the setup. I am trying to ascertain what possible scum motivation there would be to fakeclaim miller if there’s no ac in the setup. You don’t think that might be useful?

B). You really need to familiarize yourself with FG Alice/Deemo setups, to make proper sense of my posts in this game so far.

C) I’m not saying ignore my play but it’s foolish to sr me for things that others can vouch is totally NAI for me. Why? They can provide you links to other games, where I played similarly and you can ascertain that for yourself.

D) Why is Marquis your #1 scumread and no, I’m not opposed to that wagon.

E). You never answered my question about why vote me since
I was never on Dunnstral wagon
?

F) Yes, not only is it NAI but Townie of me to “blow up” (which I don’t even think I’m doing btw) over votes on me, as anyone who will tell you. And knowing I’m receiving those votes, not only despite being town but for actually trying to fgure out the game, is really frustrating. I don’t care, if you agree with this or not.

E) When did I do that? All I recall saying was that Kokichi was my top townread for his NAI post. I’m not even voting you. I’m trying to honestly decide if it’s suspicious of you to vote me, over someone on the Dunn wagon or not.

G). If you’re really suspicious of that wagon, then it makes no sense for you to squander your vote on me.

H). Wtf does making a bad vote have jack to do with who you townread?

I) Why is she your strongest townread anyway? While I’m not currently sr her, she is certainly not amongst my top townreads, since she like you is ignoring good advice from players who have familiarity with my play. At the very best, she is not good town for doing that and once again. I don’t really care if either you or her agree with this or not.

I) I’m sorry you don’t appreciate my attitude but since I know I’m right here, I’m not changing it.

J). I am a very unorthodox player. There are very obvious town-based motivations for what I’m trying to do here. If you both familiarize yourself with FG Alice/Deemo games and try to not be closed minded about me, it will become blatantly obvious to you real fast.
A.) I'm saying that it came off, to me, as you trying to ascertain if there was an AC in the setup in order to inform a kill--I do not think the presence of an AC or not would affect AT ALL the likelihood of scum faking miller, ESPECIALLY given the situation it seems we have with multiple millers present and the mod-meta of likely informing scum of this miller situation/even there being a scum miller, which is why I asked if you had mod/game meta knowledge because the fact YOU KNOW there's likely multiple miller roles AND scum probably knows this means that town-you should know presence of an AC would have little bearing on scum faking as miller.

B.) I've been looking more into it and your positions make more sense coming from town with that knowledge, especially knowing that you are a more setup-oriented player, but I can't really reconcile point A right now.

C.) It doesn't matter if other people can vouch that behavior is NAI or link to a thousand games that prove it--I feel that your play, in this game, is more likely to come from scum than it is from town, and I'm going to grill you until I can come to a transparent read on your slot because I am having difficulty knowing for sure right now.

D.) Marquis isn't my #1 scumread--I don't have anything nearly close to a nuanced list of reads that I could put in order yet. I have people that I suspect and Marquis is among them due to adding quickly to an RVS wagon and staying on it without expressing why or doing much to actually seem to sort out Dunn's alignment. All of that, along with Marquis trying to corral more votes from specific people (me included), doesn't feel like town play to me.
I'd really like Marquis to address this.


E.) Doesn't all of this answer your question? My suspicions about you were immediate and you were here to respond so I voted for you. My reasons for voting you have little to nothing to do with the Dunn wagon.

F.) You came into this game pre-occupied with talking about millers and desperados and likelihood of roles as of your third post and have been very fixated on that. It really isn't until just this last page that you've been focusing more on this game rather than this setup.

G.) I'm not 'squandering' my vote. It's not like it's used up by sitting on you. If anything, talking to you has helped me figure out a lot about how you generally approach games and (hopefully) will help me sort you. I do not know if you would respond to me with the same degree of urgency if I had not voted for you and I'm keeping my vote on you until it needs to go on someone else or you clear my suspicions of you.

H.) Solidarity.

I.) brb laughing forever at you thinking it's 'good town' play to 'take advice' from people to not be suspicious of your suspicious play. D.Va town-tilted to me early and has been playing in a very forthright way, imo, which is far less likely to come from scum who think there's a bunch of Desperados out there waiting to bust a cap in their ass.

J.) Here's my problem. I think that you, as scum, would 100% see this setup and think the way you are playing is 'very town motivated' and you justifying your play as such makes my skin crawl.
In post 145, Nancy Drew 39 wrote: Scum desperado will almost certainly shoot town miller. Town desperado shoots their strongest scumread, since they expect scum to NK them anyway.
Why does a scum desperado here shoot a town miller?
Can you walk me through this?
It does not make sense to me unless you think scum desperado is a functionally different role than town desperado and you're not saying that.
In post 146, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:Varsoon has no familiarity with any game of mine, where I’ve been scumread. I was never sr in Undertale, Rocky Horror or Labrynth. The player he’s sheeping on me has 0 familiarity with me, period.
How is this a defense, though?
So what if I have no familiarity there?
I'm judging you based on what I'm seeing you do in this game.
In this game, you've been playing in a way that seems suspicious to me.
Don't write off my vote as a mere sheep either.
In post 147, Nancy Drew 39 wrote: In Forgotten Hourglass they’re was a scum poisoneer who could poison people during the day. Have you never been in a game before with this type of mechanic?
I have never been in a game where scum has had the ability to end the day with a kill on town.
I've been in and designed games where scum get extra kills, but I feel scum is more likely to have a miller role than a desperado role in this setup. This is coming from my perspective as a mod/game designer, though, and not as someone very informed on FG's Alice games and design ethos. Why are you so sure that scum has a desperado instead?
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Post Post #158 (isolation #16) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:10 am

Post by Varsoon »

Sorry about that. It's mostly for Nancy.
TL;DR: I don't know if this is town Nancy or Nancy playing what she believes is town Nancy but she's leaning heavily on this being meta-NAI and town while also seeming to have info we don't and presenting game approach that isn't logical given the data sets she should have, if town.
Also Marquis never informed his Dunn push and is now pushing me 'cus I called that out :P
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Post Post #160 (isolation #17) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:18 am

Post by Varsoon »

What I'm saying is I'm having problems regardless of playstyle
And also Nancy leaning really on the 'that is just how I play get over it' justification makes me more suspicious, really.

Also nix my question about why scum desperados would want to shoot millers, I looked back and yeah that's the only way that a scum desperado would be able to shoot and get a kill without dying themselves. I'd thought the desperados die if they hit a miller. This also eases a little of what I suspected on Nancy, since I though Nancy was interpreting desperado differently for scum than town but I realize I just didn't know how the role works.
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Post Post #177 (isolation #18) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:11 am

Post by Varsoon »

Did the previous FG games have a scum role that killed -and ended the day-?
That's the important part
Like scum getting a gated vig, whatever
but if it ends the day
eugh

Like I said, the conclusion that makes more sense is that scum would have a miller, but, then again, I was leaning more into that when I thought desperado died when hitting Millers soooo
I dunno.
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Post Post #181 (isolation #19) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:25 am

Post by Varsoon »

Yeah that does,
I messed up earlier because I'd thought the role said it'd fail on town and millers.
But what I'm saying is that even if it is gated like that for scum, ending the day seems like a huge deal and contrary to how mafia tends to work where the day-death that ends the day is decided by town.
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Post Post #182 (isolation #20) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:25 am

Post by Varsoon »

Why would desp claim in the first place?
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Post Post #184 (isolation #21) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:37 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 175, hebichan wrote:Why is nancy assuming that there is a scum desperado?I've read the set up and I don't get why you would assume sum would have a dayvig.
I think the logic is that in previous games by this mod there's been a running theme of
~5 people with a basic, kinda useless role (like Miller here)
~3 people with a more useful role (like Desperado here)
At least 1 scum with one of those roles

So the assumption is that scum would have something to key them into the fact town has a lot of desperados or millers, and likely scum has a miller or desperado, but scum having a desperado is a more mechanically interesting design even if it's problematic because, as the mod made real clear, any death during the day ends the day.
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Post Post #187 (isolation #22) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:40 am

Post by Varsoon »

I don't exactly understand
is it 'cus scum could lie and claim the kill since you're miller?
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Post Post #188 (isolation #23) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:42 am

Post by Varsoon »

Wait
no one would want to claim the kill if you flipped miller though
I don't get it
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Post Post #190 (isolation #24) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:44 am

Post by Varsoon »

Like maybe I could see them trying to play it off like "Oh I was the one who shot them"
but it seems like a lot of people have come to the conclusion that scum could have a desperado so
what's to stop that from just getting turbolynched rather than considered town-by-role?

P-EDIT:
Oh, okay, that makes a lot more sense
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Post Post #192 (isolation #25) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:47 am

Post by Varsoon »

Also makes more sense
And then because people are pretty sure scum's got a desperado
even if you flip miller
it doesn't clear whoever shot you
so it's a scum thing to ask for
Yeah that's fucked up
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Post Post #194 (isolation #26) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:49 am

Post by Varsoon »

:/
I still want Nancy to respond
but yeah she probably will even without my vote being on her
What's Lady currently at?
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Post Post #198 (isolation #27) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:53 am

Post by Varsoon »

the one-for-one parrot of what you said really sticks out to me
Kokichi feels worse given what I've realized this page but
VOTE: Lady
I think scum is more likely to try to come in, say some townie things, then coast and avoid desperados by being out of people's attention
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Post Post #203 (isolation #28) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:57 am

Post by Varsoon »

I thought someone claimed it somewhere too
and also FG constantly giving the 'WHEN SOMEONE DIES THE DAY ENDS' warning
if it's all a ruse, then I guess I've been rused
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Post Post #218 (isolation #29) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:23 am

Post by Varsoon »

D.Va--your thoughts on some of the other stuff in the last few pages?
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Post Post #224 (isolation #30) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:32 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 221, Drixx wrote:@Varsoon - Remember that Wake game where you and KC pulled off some major shenanigans and I told the game exactly what was happening and they all refused to believe it? I'm having flashbacks.
Yeah I think it was like I knew there was a cop in the setup because of our scum comp so
I claimed a guilty on the cop in order to force a lynch there
Then I backed off to a miller claim with BS to justify my guilty
Then KC countered my miller claim for the towncred 'cus I was dead meat after the real cop flipped town
Then KC coasted to victory
Which is why I don't ever wanna put all my eggs in the 'solve the setup' basket ever
And also why I was super skeeved by Nancy talking about Alignment Cops/potentially baiting a claim/soft.
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Post Post #225 (isolation #31) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:34 am

Post by Varsoon »

Yeah man I'm never gonna forget that game
viewtopic.php?p=6757715#p6757715
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Post Post #243 (isolation #32) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:42 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 236, Marquis wrote:coming back to ms.net and all these better than thou type attitudes is really just so irritating
i like gamma if only because he's straightforward without being snarky or mean about it
I hope I'm not part of the problem, 'cus even though I puff up a lot I am pretty garbage at actually winning
I can get mean and def snarky, tho. :cry:

In post 237, SirCakez wrote:[
I also don't like how Varsoon sort of sheeped on to this and dumped his Nancy push just because Wis told him to.
Ain't just 'cus Wis told me, it's cus I realized a lot about how desperado actually functions and what the setup likely is and why Lady's posts are as seriously an issue as they are and that serious pressure should be put there~
On the B-side, Nancy's gonna respond to me even if I'm not voting her, so my vote there stopped being worthwhile because I definitely got her attention.
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Post Post #244 (isolation #33) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:43 am

Post by Varsoon »

But yeah mayne I'll talk to you and spam more pages no one will read
;_;
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Post Post #248 (isolation #34) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:47 am

Post by Varsoon »

Like it bugs me that you frame it as 'cus wis told varsoon, that is why he voted there' when that's not the case.
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Post Post #249 (isolation #35) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:48 am

Post by Varsoon »

Like hey
SirCakez win this game for me
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Post Post #250 (isolation #36) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:48 am

Post by Varsoon »

lol now if you win the game you only did it cus I told you
nerd
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Post Post #260 (isolation #37) » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:37 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Oh, Lady, I didn't realize you were in Canada. Use the V/LA banners next time!
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Post Post #380 (isolation #38) » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:20 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 320, MariaR wrote:I have not. Read this game. Because I just
saw
it was day 2
For the record, I've seen this happen before but it's irresponsible play.
You had to confirm a role PM and you would have known the game was about to start/had started given the PMs sent out.
Your refusal to take serious responsibility for this doesn't feel great.
In post 344, Nancy Drew 39 wrote: Yeah, i thought either me or some protective would get killed. I’m probably not surviving until D3, unless there’s a protective in the setup. Thanks LA. :roll:
Why do you think it was two scum kills and that you're not alive
right now
thanks to a protective?
I'd like it if you could address some of my concerns from yesterday, but I feel a lot better about your slot now, for what it's worth.
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Post Post #381 (isolation #39) » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:21 am

Post by Varsoon »

Especially the excuse that you would've seen a scum PT 'cus I don't think anything shows up in egoposts until after you've posted in it.
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Post Post #383 (isolation #40) » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:18 am

Post by Varsoon »

Do people check Private Topics like that?
That's so far divorced from my experience with the site, where I only ever navigate away from Inbox or View your Posts to go to the queue.
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Post Post #387 (isolation #41) » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:59 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 385, Drixx wrote:So ... elephant in the room time. If there's a pile of desperados ... do we really believe all those miller claims?
Who even all claimed? All I remember off the top of my head is Gamma.

In post 384, Marquis wrote:just very annoyed w myself rn. nothing ever happens.
bbl.
wtf do you mean with this
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Post Post #390 (isolation #42) » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:53 am

Post by Varsoon »

The implication there is that we've clearly got a lot of desperados in-setup (at least 3 confirmed) so there's probably a few millers but that's exactly what makes it a good scum fake-claim since Desperados wouldn't want to hit a miller and any sort of investigative would probably avoid claimed millers as well.

Feels like limiting it to just people who claimed miller when it feels like half the playerlist wasn't even around yesterday (some people didn't even post once) might be a bit too much of a witch hunt and shouldn't be the primary thing anyone bases a wagon on, but I dunno.

P-EDIT
I'd maybe buy that one of Dunn, Nos, Wis, or Gamma isn't really a miller but I dunno that it makes them scum and even 1/4 is still worse odds than hitting scum with a completely random roll out of currently living players.
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Post Post #391 (isolation #43) » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:55 am

Post by Varsoon »

Like I don't think a miller claim alone should change the way we read anyone's alignment.
I do think it should inform desperado shots since it's very unlikely the whole scum team claimed miller.
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Post Post #398 (isolation #44) » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:59 am

Post by Varsoon »

The whole reason I feel better about you is because you're very likely confirmed town.
You're not 100%, but pretty much close to it.
You're only 100% if the mod says you are town in the game thread.
But barring some REAL GAME BREAKING nigh-bastard shenanigans, you're confirmed.
So I'm gonna treat it that way.
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Post Post #400 (isolation #45) » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:48 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 397, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 392, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 373, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:
In post 372, Wisdom wrote:the problem with my theory is that cakez/dva could have been millers who didnt claim so eh. Would they risk it?
Do you think scum has a role cop because the odds of hitting a desperado. If there was a scum role cop n0, then that would be interesting.

VOTE: Tripod

Let’s try this. Marquis is also good.
Why?
One of them is very likely scum, since they voted me, knowing that LA would probably be flipped.
What does this mean
Explain
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Post Post #403 (isolation #46) » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:57 am

Post by Varsoon »

So why'd you vote Nancy (who is now confirmed as town) when LA was getting run up?
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Post Post #606 (isolation #47) » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:17 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 491, MariaR wrote:nancy isn't cof town
neither is dunn.
In post 494, Gamma Emerald wrote:Because it looks like you’re trying to devalue townclears, which when lacking a really good reason is super scummy
In post 517, Wisdom wrote:she hasn't been as town as i expect of her, her votes have all been on flipped town plus idk who else it can be

Are you ready town?
Aye-aye Varsoon.
I can't hear you...
Aye-aye Varsoon!
Ohhhhhh!

Who posts nothing of substance until day three?
MariaR ScumPants!
Doubcasting and mislynching and dodgy is she!
MariaR ScumPants!
If lynching town be something you wish...
MariaR ScumPants!
Then let her active lurking flourish!
MariaR ScumPants!


On the real it's mad scummy that you weren't here D1 (and oh hey there's one less Kill N1 hmmmm so why would that be hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm)
And then the second you come under fire you dip out for several pages until the votes drop off of you and then you come with this weak push on me because I'm a low-confidence scumread a lot of people have and you're angling for just one more juicy lynch so you can wingame.
VOTE: MariaR
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Post Post #609 (isolation #48) » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:31 am

Post by Varsoon »

Why?
To both those things
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Post Post #615 (isolation #49) » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:37 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 610, MariaR wrote:Yes Varsoon because scum me wouldn't play D1 and my partners wouldn't make sure I'm here you got me
VOTE: Varsoon
If your defense is "Scum me WOULD NEVER make that play"
Then it's a good play to make as scum.
My read on you is pretty informed for a few reasons
but the biggest red flag for me is that you
Either lurked out Day 1 so you'd get NO attention and not be desperado shot because you're a powerful role for scum team (LIKE AN EXTRA KILL)
or
You did not actually see the game was here until D2, and all of a sudden we have an extra kill on N2 that's unclaimed. Hmmmmm.
HMMMMM
DO I REALLY HAVE TO SPELL THIS ONE OUT FOR YOU?
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Post Post #617 (isolation #50) » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:38 am

Post by Varsoon »

What's the beef with UT?
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Post Post #620 (isolation #51) » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:41 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 618, Wisdom wrote:iso him, it will take less than 30 seconds
Euch, you're right
And those votes
hoh boy.
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Post Post #623 (isolation #52) » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:46 am

Post by Varsoon »

But I am really sure Maria's the extra killllller.
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Post Post #626 (isolation #53) » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:49 am

Post by Varsoon »

Good thing I can prove I'm not, nerd.

VOTE: Untrod Tripod
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Post Post #715 (isolation #54) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:12 am

Post by Varsoon »

Wisdom is probably town. Don't think scum plays like Wisdom in a game where 8+ people could've just shot him.
Marquis on the other hand, feels aimless, which might be forced in order to keep a low profile? Does anyone have any more experience and could tell me if he's always like this or if it's a symptom of this game? Either way not great.
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Post Post #725 (isolation #55) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:35 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 724, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:Maria is probably town, because of the GF thing.
Explain?
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Post Post #727 (isolation #56) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:48 am

Post by Varsoon »

I mean, you're not an IC.
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Post Post #728 (isolation #57) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:48 am

Post by Varsoon »

Really, really damn close but
Your role is not Innocent Child.
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Post Post #739 (isolation #58) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:02 am

Post by Varsoon »

Why would she think of a GF theory otherwise?

Also, remind me tomorrow about the doc thing?
I have a theory but we can't afford to be wrong and if you are alive tomorrow then my theory is probably right.
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Post Post #748 (isolation #59) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:19 am

Post by Varsoon »

I mean like I think I do sometimes as both alignments for reasons
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Post Post #751 (isolation #60) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:15 am

Post by Varsoon »

So like
In order for MariaR to think a Godfather exists
Has to be contingent on thinking the reason why the Desperado shot on your failed is because you're a Godfather
So MariaR had to be aware of the Desperado shot on you
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Post Post #759 (isolation #61) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:15 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Can't wait to lord that post over you once we get into post-game.
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Post Post #760 (isolation #62) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:17 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 758, MariaR wrote:I feel like a lot of varsoons posting is just words
like, yeah, buddy.
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Post Post #761 (isolation #63) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:17 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I should post more images, though.
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Post Post #763 (isolation #64) » Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:19 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Image
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Post Post #778 (isolation #65) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:53 am

Post by Varsoon »

I just take em at face value, Nos.
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Post Post #780 (isolation #66) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:15 am

Post by Varsoon »

But your role is not innocent child.
And the moderator never confirmed your alignment explicitly in-thread.
All we know is that a desperado (whose role PM isn't even fully revealed) bolded a shot at you in the thread and then died.
So

yes, it is as close to an IC as what we can get without it being an IC, but this is a closed non-normal setup, so accepting it at face value may lead to getting finessed by scum who lucked out with a very unlikely role interaction.

That said, I'd consider having that sort of role interaction to be bad setup design and I'd be fine losing a game because a mod included something that's so likely to be town-read, if that makes sense.

This is why I've accepted that you're town beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Post Post #782 (isolation #67) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:19 am

Post by Varsoon »

As we discussed, though, it seems likely that scum have some protection against just getting their whole team shot to death during the day/night so that's why people are considering it as a possibility. Even something as simple as bulletproof could throw a huge wrench into things.

@Mod: How would the desperado role, as described in the Sample Role PM, interact with a role that is immune to being killed?


Once again, I do not think this is the case, as I think that false-confirmation interactions are poor design and beneath FG's pedigree.
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Post Post #783 (isolation #68) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:20 am

Post by Varsoon »

@Nancy: Are we sure scum has two kills just because no one claimed one of them?
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Post Post #785 (isolation #69) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:21 am

Post by Varsoon »

Like it seems wild that scum would just have two kills every night and town would have kills.
Seems very swingy.
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Post Post #788 (isolation #70) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:33 am

Post by Varsoon »

Hm.
And you're sure that you were protected and it's not just something like scum only get an extra kill on N2 or an extra kill every time the town vig shoots or something wonky?
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Post Post #790 (isolation #71) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:49 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 789, Wisdom wrote:Maybe their extra kill is even night
Yeah I'm worried it's likely gated in some way.
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Post Post #792 (isolation #72) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:26 am

Post by Varsoon »

Okay cool.
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Post Post #801 (isolation #73) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:14 am

Post by Varsoon »

That's what I've been talking with Nancy about for the last page or so, c'mon MariaR.
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Post Post #806 (isolation #74) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:32 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 803, Sakura Hana wrote:Is this going to be like the last game, where i was "Hey guys MariaR is scum, the guilty is probably correct" and then i was told that she wasnt and she lived to the win?
Except now replace MariaR with Wisdom.
Prove it.
I actually really like wisdom this game.
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Post Post #809 (isolation #75) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:34 am

Post by Varsoon »

:/
"I have a guilty on this person, why wont people care?"
"Prove it"
"omg rolefisher"
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Post Post #814 (isolation #76) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:40 am

Post by Varsoon »

Yeah there's nothing even close to a faked guilty on Wisdom
How are these situations comparable?
I hate being wrong as much as the next person
and that hubris makes me play really bad
Let it go
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Post Post #817 (isolation #77) » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:42 am

Post by Varsoon »

Statistically, every third person I talk to is.
Why has UT completely flaked?
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Post Post #875 (isolation #78) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:55 am

Post by Varsoon »

Yeah, I played in an old, old FG game that was basically won for scum because of a godfather-type role and FG swore to never include that shit again, iirc.
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Post Post #878 (isolation #79) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:56 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 876, Sakura Hana wrote:If you doubt it that much you should probably take a look at touhou upick 2's dead PT (and maybe postgame too), basically ppl were scumreading Varsoon that game and I used a cop on him and got town, and turns out it was godfather.
Your memory is much better than mine.
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Post Post #885 (isolation #80) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:02 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I mean I literally wongame thanks to being godfather so I remember that. :P
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Post Post #886 (isolation #81) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:03 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Also ew @ that scum team
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Post Post #889 (isolation #82) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:05 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 880, MariaR wrote:Varsoon
Wisdom
Marquis
Untrod Tripod
Nancy Drew 39

2 town in here and gg
Why is Nancy in this list but not Sakura or Nos.
Okay.
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Post Post #909 (isolation #83) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:13 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Marquis was the better shot by far. Even if he's town, dude hasn't contributed anything for weeks.
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Post Post #912 (isolation #84) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:15 pm

Post by Varsoon »

So wait
was all that stuff about being protected N1 faked?
I don't understand
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Post Post #913 (isolation #85) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:16 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 911, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 909, Varsoon wrote:Marquis was the better shot by far. Even if he's town, dude hasn't contributed anything for weeks.
For a desperado shot? If it’s town the problem isn’t solved :igmeou:
it's sinking in that nancy shot him so we didn't get a second conf out of it
:/
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Post Post #915 (isolation #86) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:18 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 912, Varsoon wrote:So wait
was all that stuff about being protected N1 faked?
I don't understand
Wait scratch this I'm stupid
Of course the dayshot failed it doesn't succeed on desperados
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Post Post #917 (isolation #87) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:20 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I got mixed up and thought that a desperado shooting a desperado would succeed and that your claim was that you were a desperado that was bulletproof or something
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Post Post #918 (isolation #88) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:21 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Like I thought your claim retroactively explained why you weren't killed but would still clear you if Marquis flips town
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Post Post #920 (isolation #89) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:23 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I forgot how desperado works and the way you claimed before shooting threw me for a loop.
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Post Post #922 (isolation #90) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:24 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I'm just gonna show myself out now
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Post Post #923 (isolation #91) » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:28 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I can't believe I messed that up twice
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Post Post #932 (isolation #92) » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:10 pm

Post by Varsoon »

It's definitely a spell of the highest irony that our conftown would be incomprehensible for half the playerlist
But I dunno if it's wack. Good shot, Nancy.
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Post Post #934 (isolation #93) » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:46 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I was about to ask who the fuck moment is but then I realized it's just UTslot
VOTE: Moment
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Post Post #959 (isolation #94) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:21 am

Post by Varsoon »

What the fuck
what
?
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Post Post #961 (isolation #95) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:23 am

Post by Varsoon »

There's probably not a doctor.
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Post Post #965 (isolation #96) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:44 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 964, MariaR wrote:Is it time for a mass claim? It might be
UNVOTE:
Are we in MYLO/LYLO?
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Post Post #966 (isolation #97) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:44 am

Post by Varsoon »

Guess we can't know given the number of kills fluxing
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Post Post #967 (isolation #98) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:45 am

Post by Varsoon »

so yeah that's probably safest.
Gamma should probably figure out the order
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Post Post #970 (isolation #99) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:46 am

Post by Varsoon »

^ I thought something weird about kills but I'll reveal it when I claim.
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Post Post #973 (isolation #100) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:57 am

Post by Varsoon »

He claimed cop and is probably the closest thing we have to conf-town at this point.
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Post Post #974 (isolation #101) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:57 am

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So basically his claim is already out/shouldn't be changing and he's probably the most town-likely person to decide it.
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Post Post #976 (isolation #102) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:59 am

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P.sure it was that he was 1-shot and got no result. Forget who his target was.
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Post Post #979 (isolation #103) » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:53 am

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First post has all the flips, Nos.
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Post Post #982 (isolation #104) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:07 pm

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Why are, like, half the people in this game still not here?
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Post Post #997 (isolation #105) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:34 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 993, MariaR wrote:I can't say I would've caught you I might've between you or nos but eh.
Varsoon was just yeah lol.
HEY HOLD THE PHONE
I WAS READY TO SHIMMY ON IN TO VICTORY
HOW THE FUCK I WENT A WHOLE GAME WITH MY BIG ASS MOUTH AND DIDN'T GET SHOT FOR IT IS A FUCKING MIRACLE AND GREAT PLAY ON MY PART YOOOOOO
I also had really good night actions if my blocks blocked all of what I think I blocked.
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Post Post #998 (isolation #106) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:35 pm

Post by Varsoon »

I was straight up gonna just claim my actual role and Sakura could bus me. :P
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Post Post #999 (isolation #107) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:36 pm

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That's why I was trying to play up the whole "ARE YOU SURE" with Nancy on the doc thing.
'cus I was gonna be like 'cus I blocked Gamma N1 and there was no extra kill N1'
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Post Post #1003 (isolation #108) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:38 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Town really did shoot itself in the foot this game, though.
I spent the whole game just trying to PR fish and keep a low profile so I wouldn't catch a bullet.

Pfft, if ya had me pegged, ya should'a loaded your gun and let the bullets do the talking.

And hey, it was my smart idea to be less hubristic and trust you, too, Sakura :D
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Post Post #1006 (isolation #109) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:40 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Yeah I was sure there weren't any more desperados
Welp
Just goes to show the ideal way to have played this one would have probably been:
Run someone scummy up to L-1
Get a claim.
Shoot it.
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Post Post #1009 (isolation #110) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:44 pm

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On one hand, I worry this is a game that is 100% solved by an early mass-claim, but on the other, I wonder if scum could reasonably fake-claim and survive. We were hoping that town would suicide itself sorting in all the claimed millers.
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Post Post #1013 (isolation #111) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:48 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Was there really never a lynch?

@Fakegod: What was your goal with this setup?
Did it play out how you envisioned?
What did you expect/didn't expect?
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Post Post #1014 (isolation #112) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:48 pm

Post by Varsoon »

In post 1012, RadiantCowbells wrote:Not just selfish shots but selfish shots on 'good scum players' with the intent of being a hero instead of sorting the people who can actually be sorted
khehehehe this is why I never ate a bullet
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Post Post #1021 (isolation #113) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:04 pm

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That's the problem--all scum had to do was slip under radars. At least in most games they've gotta have some agency in getting those mislynches.
In post 1017, FakeGod wrote:I think mass desperado setups give too much power to individual players and ruins the game unless town players show exceptional restraint.
Same, though I'd extend this to giving town and scum any killing power beyond the traditional 1 lynch/1 kill. Every time I've tried to make a game that hinged around it (bloodborne, FFT), it did not work out in a way that was satisfying to the core principles of mafia. I'm now loathe even to include gated extra kills for scum or a vigilante for town because it's a ton of extra power and (potentially) swing that needs to be offset and I don't know that it buys the setup anything particularly interesting or worthwhile when it comes to decision making or rhetorical gameplay.
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Post Post #1029 (isolation #114) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:11 pm

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In post 1022, RadiantCowbells wrote:I think fucking with the fundamental process of lynching people ruins mafia and that extends to massive amounts of desperados / too many kpn / etc
yeet, this
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Post Post #1030 (isolation #115) » Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:14 pm

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I also legitimately forgot how Desperado functioned about four times in this game
so uh
I should'a been shot
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Post Post #1058 (isolation #116) » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:24 pm

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I also came around to the notion that killing you and leaning on your trust in townreading sakura then would be better than keeping you alive and there being a potential for you to turn.
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Post Post #1062 (isolation #117) » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:48 pm

Post by Varsoon »

Same, release away.
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