In post 8029, PJ. wrote:Sorry, I'm here for the blue bloods. Play-ins were fun, but it's time for all the western teams to go home. Brackets are for Korea and China. I hope Flash Wolves and Fntic are the two non-korea, non-china teams.
AP doesn't damage turrets 1-1 (unless that got changed while I wasn't paying attention) and AP champs both don't build AS or have AS steroids. Helmer and Ziggs are weird exceptions, but putting most mages bot (or other types of champs) is going to cause a reduction in turret-sieging ability relative to an ADC pick.
I sort of like the idea of changing power curves of ADCs, but it kind of goes against one of the core philosophies of LoL vs DotA and has been why a lot of champs in the past have been changed (Jax, Olaf, etc). That said, ADCs have been broken since s1 so maybe making their early game weaker while keeping their end game about the same is a correct solution. Would also make Leona/J4 bot more viable, and that is the most fun bot lane to play so...
Riot forcibly requiring every team to have an adc so that when they changed it people would be upset was one of the worst structural things Riot put into the game. At least Riot recognized how busted supports were in s1 and systematically nerfed literally all of them
With the exceptions of Heimer and maybe TF on the mage side and Jhin (and Graves lol) on the ADC side, I really don't think any mages take turrets as hard as ADCs. There's still a spectrum among the mages, but attack speed is a thing that mages overwhelmingly don't build. The choice doesn't have to be "sacrifice all ability to take turrets from range"
Last edited by BROseidon on Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
The reality is that, at worlds, we are averaging 1.81 ADCs in the "ADC" role with an additional 4 Graves picks in the jungle bringing the overall ADCs per game up to almost 2 (although idk how fair it is to call Graves an ADC at this point, but he is listed as a "marksman"). ADCs are overtuned as a class still.
Jungler is a map position that can be viably occupied by a number of champ classes. ADC is a champ class played by whiney babies who want their favorite class to be perennially broken.
If top and mid laners have to learn literally every class, junglers have to learn like 3, and supports have to learn 2, ADC players can and should be bothered to have another class viable in their lane position
Literally every class has been viable in a solo lane at one point or another.
Jungle has ADC (graves), Mage (Taliyah, Fiddles), as well as the tanks/bruisers/fighters that have historically dominated. Assassin and support are the only classes that have never been in the jungle in a meaningful capacity.
Support players have to play supports and tanks (cow, Leona, Taric, Shen), and there had been some mages who've been meta bots (Morgana, fiddlesticks)
Basically it's super disingenuous to say that other roles don't have role diversity because ADCs have absolutely been the spoiled children of LoL for its history, and the class is still systemically overtuned
The issues you're talking about are more due to specific champs (Ornn, Irelia, Aatrox, Urgot) being OP than the bruiser class being systemically overtuned.
Metas will come and go defined by which few champs sit at the top, but ADC is the only class that survives all metas because of them being systemically busted
And your point about supports is still bad because they still learn 2 classes at least. You're right that most mage supports do end up getting nerfed eventually, but that's also something I disagree with. Also ADC support was a thing once (MF/Ashe lane). That was fun.
Also your comparison to lebron is very short term decision making.
Their play patterns are much closer than Leona vs Janna. If anything, the mage class has the most diverse play patterns. The ADCs that are the furthest away from the rest of the class are Graves and Jhin
Item build paths aren't play patterns (also for a good chunk of the history of the game you're wrong wrt how ADC builds look like after 3 items or so). Power spikes aren't play patterns. It doesn't matter as much to diversity that Lucian and Ashe peak at different times and use different items at their peaks when they both largely do the same thing (use autoattacks to kill things, stay at range, obliterate turrets/objectives). Saying that MF and Ashe have further apart play patterns than Leona and Janna is outright insane.
ADCs have high build diversity (right now) and power spike diversity, but they all fundamentally bring the same thing (or something in a very narrow space) to a team
Okay so I've been playing longer and was (relative to the time) a better player. So don't come at me because I stopped playing for a while because the fundamentals of game design don't meaningfully change over a 2 year span.
If you want to say "Leona and Janna have a closer play pattern than Ashe and MF," make a real argument
"Champ Xs wants to be proactive vs defensive at time Y, vs Champ Z's power spike" is an important diversity to have in a game but also different from "champ x vs champ y force you to do completely different things"
In post 8208, PJ. wrote:there's nothing to say because ou don't know ashe or mf.
it's literally the same diff as janna and leona
Uh none of these champs have meaningfully changed since the Ashe rework, which didn't really change the fundamentals of how she plays that much vs just modernize her kit.
The core mechanics around spacing, kiting, etc are all the same. Just because they are strong in different comps and at different times doesn't make their play patterns different the way that Leona and Janna do literally opposite things
Like I'm not saying "these are literally the same" but you're using a lot of the same skill and one over the other doesn't fundamentally rethink how you play vs something like a heimerdinger or Brand bot
