LoL eSports Discussion

This forum is specifically for discussing non-Mafia games
(board, card, video, we're not picky)
.
Playing
such games should happen in the Mish Mash forum, of course.
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8175 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:03 am

Post by BROseidon »

Jungler is a map position that can be viably occupied by a number of champ classes. ADC is a champ class played by whiney babies who want their favorite class to be perennially broken.

If top and mid laners have to learn literally every class, junglers have to learn like 3, and supports have to learn 2, ADC players can and should be bothered to have another class viable in their lane position
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8176 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:04 am

Post by BROseidon »

I would define the classes as something like:

ADC
Assassin
Mage
Support
Tank
Bruiser
Fighter
User avatar
PJ.
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
User avatar
User avatar
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
Hell in a Cell
Posts: 4601
Joined: January 5, 2007
Location: somewhere better than you =*

Post Post #8177 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:10 am

Post by PJ. »

Bruiser and Fighter are the same thing.

Solo laners are just one thing. They only have to learn 3 classes max and not every guy learns each classes.

Junglers only run two classes.

~~

Why is it okay for support to only be one thing, but not ADC? Not only is it okay, they nerf everything that *isn't* a support to force that pigeon hole. Just because you have an issue with the people who play the role doesn't mean it isn't an important part of the game. Not only that, but the ADC nerf also negatively effected the champion variety of support. Because they nerfed a lot of the scaling items AND the support items to protect and give the ADC more stats, you can basically only play like 4 supports that all play basically the same way. Over the 84 games of Play-ins, only 5 supports played 5 or more games(more than 4% of total games): Ali, TK, Rakan, BRaum, Thresh.

In the entire "Main Event", the only other guys who got significant play rate are Leona(because of Alistair Bans) and Gragas(because of really dumb coaching)
Last edited by PJ. on Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich.
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8178 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:17 am

Post by BROseidon »

Fiora plays very differently from, say, Shyvanna.

Literally every class has been viable in a solo lane at one point or another.

Jungle has ADC (graves), Mage (Taliyah, Fiddles), as well as the tanks/bruisers/fighters that have historically dominated. Assassin and support are the only classes that have never been in the jungle in a meaningful capacity.

Support players have to play supports and tanks (cow, Leona, Taric, Shen), and there had been some mages who've been meta bots (Morgana, fiddlesticks)
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8179 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:18 am

Post by BROseidon »

Basically it's super disingenuous to say that other roles don't have role diversity because ADCs have absolutely been the spoiled children of LoL for its history, and the class is still systemically overtuned
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8180 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:24 am

Post by BROseidon »

Maybe i should say bruiser vs melee carry.
User avatar
Randomnamechange
Randomnamechange
Jack of All Trades
User avatar
User avatar
Randomnamechange
Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades
Posts: 6075
Joined: February 8, 2014

Post Post #8181 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:24 am

Post by Randomnamechange »

In post 8178, BROseidon wrote:Fiora plays very differently from, say, Shyvanna.

Literally every class has been viable in a solo lane at one point or another.

Jungle has ADC (graves), Mage (Taliyah, Fiddles), as well as the tanks/bruisers/fighters that have historically dominated. Assassin and support are the only classes that have never been in the jungle in a meaningful capacity.

Support players have to play supports and tanks (cow, Leona, Taric, Shen), and there had been some mages who've been meta bots (Morgana, fiddlesticks)
junglers with khazix, rengar, full ad jarvan stuff like that for assassins
vonflare (21:40)
you suck randomidget
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8182 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:25 am

Post by BROseidon »

Ah shit forgot Rengar and Kha ur right.
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8183 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:25 am

Post by BROseidon »

Full AD Jarvan was never really "good" though, it was mostly a lane cheese thing.
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8184 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:26 am

Post by BROseidon »

Also J4 is still one of the greatest kits ever created don't @ me
User avatar
PJ.
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
User avatar
User avatar
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
Hell in a Cell
Posts: 4601
Joined: January 5, 2007
Location: somewhere better than you =*

Post Post #8185 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:28 am

Post by PJ. »

I already disputed the "champion diversity point" in an edit. The supports basically fall into 2 categories, disengage tank or engage tank, due to the ADC changes.

There are 5 played top laners right now. 3 bruisers and Sion/Ornn(with Viktor picking up steam late with a measly 5 plays because of some Korean solo q shenanigans).

Mid legitimately has 4 classes(but that's more a testament to Irelia being busted).

Junglers right now are bruisers and Taliyah.

~~

You simply want to see the world burn because you don't like ADC players.
Sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich.
User avatar
PJ.
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
User avatar
User avatar
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
Hell in a Cell
Posts: 4601
Joined: January 5, 2007
Location: somewhere better than you =*

Post Post #8186 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:31 am

Post by PJ. »

You need to play bruisers everywhere because they are your early and mid game damage because ADCs take forever to ramp up. And unless you play 2 tanks and a scaling mage, you have to run 3 bruisers and an engage support. In my opinion, it's stale and it's all because ADC is too weak. They didn't need to rework all the items right after they basically dusted every support item. Edit: beside zekes
Sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich.
User avatar
PJ.
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
User avatar
User avatar
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
Hell in a Cell
Posts: 4601
Joined: January 5, 2007
Location: somewhere better than you =*

Post Post #8187 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:35 am

Post by PJ. »

And if you're speaking historically, every mage beside Morgana 6 years ago has been nerfed out of support(Annie, Lux, Brand, Vel Koz, Malzahar) and the meta has always been dominated by either the squishy supports or the tank supports. So why is it okay for Support to be a monolith but not ADC? Especially when the state of ADC has a larger impact on the game as a whole AND from a marketing stand point, losing 3 of the most bankable star pros for medium to large portions of a split is poor decision making.

It's like if you start calling traveling on LeBron. The game is worse. Do it. Let LeBron travel.
Sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich.
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8188 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:40 am

Post by BROseidon »

The issues you're talking about are more due to specific champs (Ornn, Irelia, Aatrox, Urgot) being OP than the bruiser class being systemically overtuned.

Metas will come and go defined by which few champs sit at the top, but ADC is the only class that survives all metas because of them being systemically busted
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8189 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:42 am

Post by BROseidon »

And your point about supports is still bad because they still learn 2 classes at least. You're right that most mage supports do end up getting nerfed eventually, but that's also something I disagree with. Also ADC support was a thing once (MF/Ashe lane). That was fun.

Also your comparison to lebron is very short term decision making.
User avatar
PJ.
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
User avatar
User avatar
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
Hell in a Cell
Posts: 4601
Joined: January 5, 2007
Location: somewhere better than you =*

Post Post #8190 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:32 am

Post by PJ. »

Saying supports are learning two classes then you should acknowledge that somethign like ashe and something like MF or Corki are different classes.
Sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich.
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8191 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:58 am

Post by BROseidon »

Their play patterns are much closer than Leona vs Janna. If anything, the mage class has the most diverse play patterns. The ADCs that are the furthest away from the rest of the class are Graves and Jhin
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8192 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:59 am

Post by BROseidon »

Like yeah Ashe and MF aren't literally the same champ but your general mechanics and what you do with them are pretty same-ey
User avatar
PJ.
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
User avatar
User avatar
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
Hell in a Cell
Posts: 4601
Joined: January 5, 2007
Location: somewhere better than you =*

Post Post #8193 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:07 am

Post by PJ. »

Build paths and play styles are completely different between MF/Luc and Ashe/Cait and you're blinded by your bias if you think otherwise.

And every support buys the same items and as basically always done so.
Sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich.
User avatar
PJ.
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
User avatar
User avatar
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
Hell in a Cell
Posts: 4601
Joined: January 5, 2007
Location: somewhere better than you =*

Post Post #8194 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:10 am

Post by PJ. »

ADCs might have the highest Item diversity and power spike diversity in the game. Everyone else basically builds the same shit as everyone in their class and are strong around the same time, with kit and numbers being the only deciding factor on who is played.
Sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich.
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8195 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:11 am

Post by BROseidon »

Item build paths aren't play patterns (also for a good chunk of the history of the game you're wrong wrt how ADC builds look like after 3 items or so). Power spikes aren't play patterns. It doesn't matter as much to diversity that Lucian and Ashe peak at different times and use different items at their peaks when they both largely do the same thing (use autoattacks to kill things, stay at range, obliterate turrets/objectives). Saying that MF and Ashe have further apart play patterns than Leona and Janna is outright insane.
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8196 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:12 am

Post by BROseidon »

ADCs have high build diversity (right now) and power spike diversity, but they all fundamentally bring the same thing (or something in a very narrow space) to a team
User avatar
PJ.
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
User avatar
User avatar
PJ.
Hell in a Cell
Hell in a Cell
Posts: 4601
Joined: January 5, 2007
Location: somewhere better than you =*

Post Post #8197 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:22 am

Post by PJ. »

large disagree, you're crazy. probably play the game more than once every two years,
Sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich.
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8198 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:26 am

Post by BROseidon »

Yeah the game hasn't fundamentally changed that much
User avatar
BROseidon
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
User avatar
User avatar
BROseidon
Expert Marxman
Expert Marxman
Posts: 8242
Joined: April 18, 2013

Post Post #8199 (ISO) » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:26 am

Post by BROseidon »

S1-s5 I probably played more than you have over your lifetime
Post Reply

Return to “The Arcade”