Open 737: Stack the Deck (Game Over)

[BuJaber]

Thank you ofrhz

Hello

I will catchup fully probably during the weekend.

Based on first 5 pages: vex, skitter, skygazer and young man A29 are town. Hewhoswims and Enigma are scum.

I don't normally replace people so this is new to me enjoy my tease. More to come.

[BuJaber]

Being mod-confirmed town is not enough for you?

[BuJaber]

BuJaber replaces Antihero. Welcome!

Yaaay! Now comes the tricky part: R U SCUM in this game?

No.. are you? Or is my first impression correct?

Regarding Enigma:
In those 5 pages the number of pagetops, posts about pagetops, jokes about pagetops, and posts about setup make up an awfully large portion of his total posts.

I really don't like pagetop grabbing.. I know many townies do it but it doesn't help at all and sometimes people compete over them which helps artificially boost post and page counts. It's a bit of a personal bias of mine.

It's interesting you only question that read. Has he been townspewing in the thread?

We can talk more once I'm caught up. Usually 24 hours is plenty but I don't think I'll get it done before the weekend. Those 5 pages I read in my work breaks while waiting for the mod to PM me.

[BuJaber]

Oh yeah.. out of curiosity.. would you say you have BoP with this playerbase?

[BuJaber]

@mod - I am here, I am in the process of catching up it's just taking time because I keep having to take breaks.

I understand if you decide to replace me.

[BuJaber]

Caught up:

Town reads:
Creature - because he likes reemphasizing his IC status. 553 - up to this post we did not.

Vex & skitter -I like their back and forth on setup spec vex in particular because this kind of effort about something so wifomy and unimportant (to the big picture) is usually not worth it for scum. Notice that it isn't posting

about

setup spec that I'm townreading, but it's all the extra research and actually using that to try and deduce some info. Premature if you ask me because it's not like we can make any conclusions based on it but it got him townread I guess. He also is kind of just committing to his scumread of A50 in a way that would be detrimental to him if he's scum and A50 flips town. Seems rather careless if coming from scum so unless they're literally buddies (wow that would be a hell of a performance by both) his play doesn't make sense from scum pov.
I don't like his read change on A50 though. I don't think someone who scumread A50's earlier posts would drop them to a null based on their later posts because there is imo little difference in tone and motivation behind his posts between the two readslists. But 647 that is some serious heart to heart. I think he gets it man. I think he gets it. I swear if vex ends up being scum this game he's just way too good at it. Like policy lynch just in case level of good. Quit the game because it's too easy level of good.

Skitter also for here dialogue with ruru; I think scum would have dropped it sooner but she was pedantic in trying to explain the nature of her ruru read. I think 352 is townie also. I think scum are more likely to read ruru's post there about vig policy and not give it a second thought. 502 is confusing his responses don't seem to fit the quotes. Wanting to vig a VLA / absent player so early seems odd though. 522 okay these posts are getting difficult to follow as an 'outsider'. Is it important for us to understand it or is it just for ruru's benefit? Also one thing I don't understand is why is it important for ruru to townread you based on what you would/wouldn't do as scum? Why aren't you trying to get him to townread based on your content this game instead? There's enough of it.

A50 - Passed my reaction test with the BoP question and didn't even point out to me that my predecessor has voted him even though I hadn't seen that. I feel like scum would have questioned it. Post 213 is the sort of weird self meta I feel A50 delves way too deep into as town. I fail to see any scum motivation to post 219. I don't have a lot of experience with scum!A50 but I believe he's a bit more emotional, a bit less engaged, and a bit more agressive when casing someone. I don't understand where he's going with 373, self voting is Policy lynchable imo but at the same time his vote doesn't seem emotional at all like it doesn't read like someone who wants people to back off by self-voting just reads like someone trolling. I could still consider the PL if my TR on him becomes weaker later on because I don't think self votes are good for the game.

Ruru - overall more townie posts than scummy ones I think.
Her posts discouraging setup spec come off a little LAMIST.
147 rubs me the wrong way.
But 214 feels more townie than scum using AtE.
343 seems townie. So does 389. 409 felt very 'real'. I could see it coming from a townie who has a lot of experience with who they're talking to (like ruru and skitter do) but frankly I have no completed games with ruru and I don't know if she's capable of faking this.
Why lynch jestery players over vigging them can you explain that a different way please?
I really really like the last part of 576. I think these things do tend to be scumtells more often than not. I don't think it outweighs the townieness of skitter's posting though.
I don't know enigma well enough to answer 734.


Sky - start was overly jokey in a way that's very in-your-face. Seems like something that only comes from relaxed town. 89 made me laugh. 452 good town list for this point in the game. I hate 595. Big post from Vex about sky is quite convincing. It still feels weird that she's being so obvscum. TW's entrance seems pretty good though. Coupled with the too scummy to be scum thing I say this is likely to be a townslot.

Scum reads:
Enigma - had something like 7 pagetop related posts out of his first 20 posts. He even votes for vex seemingly only because vex 'stole' his pagetop. The rest of those 20 barely talk about people, more about setup. Just not clear at all how he's reading people if he has any reads. Up to page 20 still not clear where he stabds reads-wise. 536 reads! Okay this is much better than his previous posts but not a difficult post to make as scum. Like it seems to be rather neutral for a reads list. I expect it to be more opinionated.

Hewhoswims - kinda pinged me how concerned he was with whether or not vex was a newbie. I agree with 259 as a general rule. But it doesn't apply to vex in this game. Also doesn't seem like he wants to 'make waves' so to speak.
Townreading my predecessor so strongly at this stage seems a little strange. He had barely any content compared to others and I didn't think it was obvtown to warrant such a response. If I didn't replace antihero I would ask him how well he knows A50's meta and then judge his case on him based on his response but not before.
497 I think we just go with A37's assessment and assume he has BoP here. If he doesn't get NK'd early, it's a good bet he's scum. HWS seems a little lurky also but not competely absent so I question the low post count.

Frank - very underwhelming entrance. I'm surprised he didn't have anything more to say. Maybe it's just me but these first few pages had enough content to form some early reads. 411 seems overly defensive, I don't think ruru's post warranted it.
487 ooooh SNAP ... this is gonna get good. 652 really man? Criticize him for something and also give him an excuse for it? Do you scumread what he did or not?

Gamma - I don't get 156, why not just say why you think he's wrong? And naked vote is bad.. why not provide reasons for voting A50?
But there's an undertone of trying to push people's buttons which iirc is something town!gamma does. Actually this undertone doesn't last. 499 - aww I was hoping for a fight. This game doesn't have a strong 1v1 argument we can analyze. There's A50 v Vex but it kinda feels like they're pulling punches. 528 okay this isn't AI but this reads rather condescending to me lol. 554 seems unnecessarily paranoid. He's also kinda passive. Not really putting himself out there with a strong opinion, not pushing hard on a case. Though in fairness his latest posts about tw vote are more in line with what I expect from town even if I don't agree with the read.

Ceejay - his catchup list (707) seems underwhelming. Too many nullish reads. I know he hadn't read the whole game at this point but 15 pages is plenty.
--------------------

@vex - maybe I misiniterpetted A50's posts.. where does he hardclaim mafia BP? I thought he was just hypothetically speaking from scum perspective to get his point across?

@Frank - have you ever played with A50? What about everyone else here?

@people who asked - this is my first time replacing into a fairly long game (about 30 pages behind). So I wanted to speed things up and start engaging people before my full catchup so once I'm caught up we would have talking points. So I quickly formed an opinion on the most memorable people in the first few pages and posted to gauge reactions. Based on the reactions I'd have known that either I was way off meaning their later posts should change my opinions or that I was more on less in line with the majority which means their later posting was on the same wavelength as their first few posts. Also I only had time to read 5 pages before receiving my PM so I commented on those because they were completely objective. Very useful for me to look back to these reads post-game. That might be selfish of me but I try to improve every game and this was a golden opportunity to post something useful for analysis.

As for the pagetop thing there's a difference. It wasn't once or twice that enigma did it. He has this whole objective for this game. His first few posts like I mention above are dominated by the pagetop stuff. Compare that to vex who's pagetop was much more tongue-in-cheek BECAUSE enigma made such a big deal about it. Also if someone does it as town it doesn't make it pro-town. That's exactly why it's policy-lynchable behavior. It shouldn't exist imo.

@ruru/vex - I don't really understand the lynch or vig stuff. Care to explain it again? Which should be done to whom and why does it matter?

Ah vex = korina. Yeah korina as scum is not obvtown. He's not an easy lynch but he's not obvtown. Vex is being obvtown.

HURT: cjv
I'm inclined to vote for frank. He is more likely to flip scum than cjv (cjv is more lurky with shy reads than actively scummy) so frank is more likely to be bp if it exists.

---

Fixed tags -ofrhz

[BuJaber]

Sorry for the broken tag. I wish I had more time to sit on a PC.. my steam collection is collecting dust.

And sorry for my absence. I don't want to get into all the things in my life that delayed my catchup. Suffice to say I asked to replace in on wednesday when I had a lot of free time. That free time become a lot more scarce thursday - saturday.

[BuJaber]

Frank at L-2 so I guess claim time. (Consider this a vote Frank).

[BuJaber]

If my post doesn't answer your concerns/questions please repeat your question.

HWS is also a good vig target imo.

[BuJaber]

I didn't overlook your list it just didn't make me suspect you less nor did it make me suspect you more so I didn't need to talk about it fort the purposes of sorting you. It was similar to the previous list. A lot of second guessing and uncertainty.

Sheeping would imply I saw yours first and then formed my reads.
But I formed my reads as I read along and most of my reasoning for where I placed people came much earlier than your reads list.

[BuJaber]

As in they were based on things that happened earlier.

[BuJaber]

I guess something along these lines:

{Creature, me}
{Vex}
{A50, skitter}
{Ruru, TW}
-----null line----
{Gamma, cjv}
{Enigma}
{HWS, Frank}

[BuJaber]

UNVOTE:

[BuJaber]

I guess something along these lines:

{Creature, me}
{Vex}
{A50, skitter}
{Ruru, TW}
-----null line----
{Gamma, cjv}
{Enigma}
{HWS, Frank}

Lol who puts themselves in their own readlist

Did I hit a nerve?

[BuJaber]

Btw, now that this game is over ... viewtopic.php?f=51&t=76766
This has kinda been in my mind the whole game, but couldn't say much as ongoing.

Skitter was one of my strongest TRs in that game, I even doc protected her because I thought she would be prime NK target ... alas she was scum
scum!skitter a force to be reckoned with, and was literally universally townread by everyone and won because town trusted her enough to hammer test her in MYLO

So I haven't really commented on skitter so much, that said I am kinda townreading skitter this game, but I don't trust her or my reads on her hahahha
Hence my earlier comment about I don't really know how to read her with confidence

This is basically the other post I wanted to make except I'm not townreading her

If my interactions with her have been awkward in this game, not wanting to spew her alignment in the ongoing was why (and she should know that and not scumread me for not engaging her more at the beginning of the game)

I don't feel like she's done anything obviously genuine and her read progression on me is weird

I could feel the tension among the few of you in both games.

There are differences in her play though I feel. But that experience does make you second guess every read you have on skitter lol.

[BuJaber]

@skitter wrt the bolded - there isn't one specific post. It just seemed like you were adamant on getting ruru to townread you based on your own meta. I guess I wanted to know why. I would understand if say she had a TR on you based on something that you know she knows would be scum indicative for you and you would be susoicious of her for it. But here it was just suprising because imo you had a lot of pro-town content that could he evaluated on its own merit to help ruru reach a townread on you, yet you were arguing with her about why she weren't townreading you on meta. Why the distinction? Why ask "why are you not townreading me because you know my meta?" Instead of simply asking "why are you not townreading me"?

Wrt enigma I feel like I've explained this. Maybe it will help if you read the first 5 pages. Like the pagetop thing is very noticable in his ISO. It isn't something he does on a whim or like when the opportunity presents itself. He has and is inflating his post count with just pagetops. Now the issue is that just taking pagetops is in itself anti-town because it does nothing helpful for the game. That's where the policy lynch comes in. However since people of both alignments do it site meta forces us not to lynch anyone who does it or we'll have a lot of dead townies (though in all honesty if we all did it for like 2 weeks everyone would stop). So if both scum and town do it you have to evaluate their posts as a whole and see if it is more likely coming from scum pov or town pov. He wasn't just taking pagetops he dedicated a few posts just talking about him going for pagetops. He also in those pages didn't give any opinions on any people. When he wasn't talking about pagetops he just gave a few comments on the setup spec - an easy way to look like he's part of the conversation without actually progressing the game. He also voted for vex? What makes him so special he needs 2 RVS votes instead of just 1 like everyone else? Everyone easily shrugged it off because he said he would do it but why the vote in the first place? He wasn't tring vex. Actually more accurately he hadn't claimed any opinion on vex at that point.

Wrt A50 PL. You misunderstand my post. I had a fairly strong TR on him before he self voted. The self vote is one of those things I'm inclined to policy lynch, but considering I had reasons to TR him I didn't want to for a policy lynch before looking at other options.
There's a difference between policy lynching someone who is also a null read and policy lynching someone who is a townread.
Loosely you can categorize it like this:
TR + did something policy lynchable = reevaluate TR to see if it holds up / if the pro-town things outweigh the scummy thing(s)
Nullread + did something policy lynchable = lynch if no solid scumread available / if town is too split up
SR + did something policy lynchable = lynch instantly

[BuJaber]

Well when I didn't put creature in my townlist earlier he asked why. I didn't think it needed to be stated. I was wrong. Same thing.

Alsp vex put himself as a townread several times this game. Just you know maybe double check yourself that you aren't applying double standards.

[BuJaber]

It's about showing my train of thought.

Reality is if we play again and you do it again I will go through the same thing. I will frown and hate it, then try to see if you're doing as town or scum.

If you like it so much you'll probably never stop. Well then you can understand on principle why when I hate something I probably wouldn't stop scumreading it either.

Pedit - meaning me putting myself on the list or not is irrelevant but you still commented on it.

[BuJaber]

@vex - in the bolded I was saying that your setup spec was premature imo and might lead us to false assumptions by doing without having any additional info via claims/flips. The only thing we know now that we didn't know before the game started is that creature is IC and therefore scum didn't pick 0 powers, they picked at least 1.
In this game the setup spec might not hurt town so much, but it doesn't help town either because it's hypothetical and might encourage some people to jump to early conclusions that end up being false. But there was one good thing that came out of it which is that you became widely townread.

[BuJaber]

if frank/tw are t/s maybe he lolhammers and we lose two claims

Who's 'he'? And which claims? Frank's and cj's?

[BuJaber]

The only thing we know now that we didn't know before the game started is that creature is IC and therefore scum didn't pick 0 powers, they picked at least 1.

False assumption (Coming from BuJ I'd say it might be a Town slip, but don't quote me on that just yet.)

Town start with 2 PRs, then gain an additional one for every modification the scum pick.

This means we have at least one other TPR in addition to Creature if the scum team is 2 Goons + a Traitor with no daychat. If they picked one modification then we have 2 more TPRs in addition to Creature. If they picked two modification we have 4 TPRs in total, and if they picked 3 modofication (maxed out) we would have FIVE TPRs.

@vex - in the bolded I was saying that your setup spec was premature imo and might lead us to false assumptions by doing without having any additional info via claims/flips. The only thing we know now that we didn't know before the game started is that creature is IC and therefore scum didn't pick 0 powers, they picked at least 1.
In this game the setup spec might not hurt town so much, but it doesn't help town either because it's hypothetical and might encourage some people to jump to early conclusions that end up being false. But there was one good thing that came out of it which is that you became widely townread.

no? because creature got ic doesn't confirm scum took at least one mod.
town starts with two mods, which are randomly selected.
only mafia choose the mods they get, all tprs are randomly selected

Right right yes
Point still stands that anything we say before claims/flips would be purely hypothetical and there are too many combinations of possible town/scum PRs that it doesn't give us anything we can act on. But in this particular game it lead to a positive result. (Out of RVS and a townread on Vex)

[BuJaber]

Start of page 6, going to sleep

I think you should claim first then

If I don't need to, then I wouldn't want to claim. That's not meant to be a soft btw
┐(￣ヘ￣)┌
Regardless of my role, I'm town, so giving out my role as VT would only make it easier for scum to PR-hunt (if there are any additional PRs) and I obviously shouldn't claim as a PR.

I don't really care how scummy my previous slot owner was, if I manage to save the slot without having to claim, then it's obviously more beneficial than if I do claim

so nah

I think this mindset is town-oriented, I replaced into a newbie with a similar mindset (was SE/IC level replacing a newb slot iirc)

What would you expect scum's mindset to be here?

[BuJaber]

What's bad about the bolded? I acknowledge her posting was weird but overall the reasons to townread her outweigh the reasons to scumread her.

As for enigma yes we just finished our first game together as far as I recall and yes he was town and maybe he grabbed some pagetops there but he was not on a personal mission to grab pagetops like he seems to be on here. It felt more casual/situational in that game instead of deliberate.

[BuJaber]

@enigma - Actually it's the other players that are bringing it up. I formed an impression based on your early game. It wasn't a good one. Your later posts weren't enough to change that because they qere not posts that scum!you wouldn't/couldn't post.


@ruru - that isn't what I said about sky. People questioned her posts saying she might be singling to scum that's she traitor and generally not playing to her town meta (according to them). What I'm saying is that her posts where too scummy to be scum. Scum wouldn't be this conspicious. I don't have a lot of experience with traitors but I don't think they would be this conspicious either. The value of signaling to scum that you're traitor is lost if people end up lynching you for it.

[BuJaber]

It gives ejj time to catch up at least.

[BuJaber]

i'll be real, i can't even remember who you replaced rn

i'll be real, i can't even remember who you replaced rn

f-sth, I don't remember his name
but he's the main wagon rn, so there should be a lot of reads him

pretty sure not groupscum together

Because tw forgot his name?!

[BuJaber]

well, more like he couldn't remember who he replaced; i think he'd know who replaced his partner

it doesn't feel faked to me, idk if i can explain that better

Yeah this towntell always feels wrong to me. It comes up quite often though and most of the time people are right when they assume it but it still is weird to me because I think it's one of the easiest things to fake. Scum don't even have to fake it sometimes if they genuinenly forgot but didn't bother to check.

[BuJaber]

Throwing duck a bit closer to the townpile

someone I townread tell me what to do pls

waht are your reads rn?

Just vote yourself

OK <3
VOTE: the worst

UNVOTE: that felt gr0ss

someone I townread tell me what to do pls

waht are your reads rn?

apathy mostly honestly

that progression feels slightly townie.
Getting reads as town is generally more difficult than doing it as scum. From my experience AtE of that type is more likely to come from town than scum.
And I remember duck saying a few times that he wants to sheep, which would be bad for scum in this situation, because there is no set wagon rn (there are many possible wagons, so unless scum!duck’s teammate/teammates are all townread, being completely sheepy/apathetic about the lynch would be rather risky)
The apathy should be real imo. That self-vote really fits the image of a demotivated player and that’s not sth that I see being faked often.

I wouldn't be so sure. I've played with scum!TW once and he won the game by being kinda vague and sheepy with his reads. He felt like a confused little innocent duckling all game and got himelf townlocked brilliantly. It probably involved a lot of bussing his partners but it was worth it in the end.

[BuJaber]

I wouldn't be so sure. I've played with scum!TW once and he won the game by being kinda vague and sheepy with his reads. He felt like a confused little innocent duckling all game and got himelf townlocked brilliantly. It probably involved a lot of bussing his partners but it was worth it in the end.

can you link the game?
and what is your read on him rn?

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=75184

A weak town read based slightly on his tone but mainly on me just not seeing how skygazer could be scum and be so obvious about it.

[BuJaber]

Well thing is I don't think Enigma is scumhunting. He's posting a few very passive reads that are mostly just sheeping people and the rest of his posts are fluff. Maybe you don't agree with me on the pagetop stuff but let me ask you this: game goes on and reaches 5ish pages and one player has posted 0 reads, only a few comments on setup. He has only 2 votes in that period, his RVS vote and his joke vote on vex. He claims he's not a strong d1 player and relies a bit more on associatives so he starts to rev it up later on in the game. I'll concede I don't know his meta as this is my 2nd game with him but even for someone who isn't a d1 player, wouldn't you expect some effort at least? One or two reads, even if just a meta read. The playerlist is not filled with NM-type players. There was enough there to form some early reads.

For now though since this game is now over and I have confirmation that gamma slot flipped scum: viewtopic.phpf=2&t=76913

I'll VOTE: gamma for similar low level of activity and what seems to me like avoiding getting into it with anyone.
I had a soft meta scum read on him in that game that I didn't act on until he was guiltied. Turns out I was right.

I'm voting gamma or enigma. Vig target should be one of the lurkier options cjv/HWS.

Ejj slot not yet cleared ftr. If he doesn't get distracted with the later posts he would finish catching up faster if you ask me.

[BuJaber]

The priority should be to get a scum lynch, or at least to get good reads out of the wagons. While catching up would help, I won’t be able to do it fast enough, so it’s out of the question
And I think I can do just fine without it for now, so you can read me normally regardless if I’ve caught up or not.

You said yourself you might never catch up if you don't do it now. Sorry I took that to mean it's a priority.

[BuJaber]

Hm tw could be Town

This might be the weakest TR I've ever seen.

[BuJaber]

my blatant refusal to elaborate shld probably be telling lmao I'd say focus on my other reads today fwiw

eh i was going to follow up by saying that if you just wanted to evade you should just tell me so that we don't have to go through the motions of playing 20 questions

can't play 20 questions. I just dislike the wagons atm

ye sorry, wasn't trying to badger you; when i realized u weren't going to answer in a way that i found useful i realized t'would be a good time to stop

still going to vote you tho, sorry

Can you elaborate on your tw read?
You rely a lot on meta it's hard to follow your cases sometimes without knowing the context.

[BuJaber]

If HWS gets replaced will we get another extension?

[BuJaber]

bleh that's an icky wagon too; i hadn't realized

i don't know where i want to vote right now

Why not?

That's really too much hesitation for a day 1 lynch. You have scumreads. It's not like you're null on everyone. You either vote for one of them or sheep your townreads if you must.

[BuJaber]

Creature why are you voting TW?

[BuJaber]

Skitter when was the last time you read sky's ISO in all its glory?
I find it weird someone who knows her so well could be worried about that slot. I've yet to see anyone play scum like that. When someone checks off every typical scumtell like they're going down a list chances are they're not scum. Because that person cannot endgame. They will be PL'd at some point. So where is the scum motivation?
That's assuming sky is the type of player who takes heavy risks as scum. You'll have to tell me which it is there. Is she bold and reckless? Or careful and methodical? Because if it's the latter I feel that personality can't follow through with the do-scummy-things-on-purpose strategy anyway.

[BuJaber]

Actually I have to ask a general question first to determine type of player you are.

Are you for or against PL'ing miller claims?

I'm for it if you can't tell.
It's why sometimes I'm able to place someone in or out of my scumpool based on if I think they have a chance at endgaming or not. This is normally more applicable when someone actually claims a role, but I think it can be applied here also for sky/tw. Also to some extent to NM. Like some have said he's a good vig target but even if there isn't a vig that slot is likely to get PL'd sooner or later and is therefore not a priority to lynch now.

[BuJaber]

anti -> bujaber who took like half a week to catchup

4 days. It only feels longer because I do my catchup all in one go.

Ftr I got the part where you don't want to vote for gamma because you scumread his wagon composition my question was why are you having difficulty voting someone when you have this many scumreads.

I guess you won't relate to my sky argument then if you don't PL millers as a rule.

[BuJaber]

okay whatever I'm afk for the night

I'm not sure if what tw did is really the towntell I think it is, also the evasiveness is fairly pl-worthy

nm seems to be playing his scum meta so far

{skitter, a50 (skitter)} - this is an actual hard tr based on her being out of her scum meta and not a day 1 "oh skitter's presence in this game is +ev" type of thing, I really mean it this time
{vex} - assuming the self-meta is accurate
{a50, enigma}
{gamma}
{ejji}
{bujaber, hws, nm, tw (a50)}
{tw, nm (a50/tw)}

I'm trying out a new readslist format so people can see both my personal reads and aggregate reads in case I'm shot and the people I was sheeping flip red; it should be pretty self-explanatory

You think tw/nm are partners?

[BuJaber]

Tw - do you have a scum game where you posted a lot? I only have the one scumgame to go on and d1 you sort of played to that meta but d2 it's different. Like you're arguing more than I would expect but some of the things you're saying are just so weird.

I find it weird that ruru is able to push tw for bussing cjv which seems rather reachy. Like I don't think tw is obvtown here by any means, but I don't think the way he pushed cjv was scum-indicative. It only makes sense if you go into it thinking 'what would tw do if he repped into a scum slot' it doesn't feel like the correct order of thoughts. Unless ruru genuinenly looks at that and says oh that looks like bussing. If someone other than tw did the same thing would you also think they're bussing ruru? At least then I could understand. Just feels like an awkward attempt at bussing and if he is as good at it as you say I'd expect a smoother attempt.
Also coming from the same person the gamma tr is weird. You are prone to believing that scum!tw had this elaborate bussing strategy, but don't believe scum!gamma could fake forget his partner? Particularly someone who flaked from the site and wasn't talking much he's easily forgettable for real even.

Enigma seems like he's pushing an agenda/creating nk wifom and he continues to post rvs'y posts like 'first' which is just like... why man? A50 did TR him though. I also still think gamma's play is more in line with his scum meta.
I hypo inno alonzo

I need help sorting tw/ruru, vex/skitter still town, alonzo is town, scum pool for today is {ejj, enigma, gamma}

VOTE: gamma

[BuJaber]

@VV

I have a strict Lynch NM policy. A50 unvoting NM and saying I never vote NM is THE singlemost scummy post I think I 'have ever seen. Probably best he's dead, I would have dragged this game waaaay down by now =)

Well you're both wrong then lmao

Why have a blanket policy on

player

?

[BuJaber]

ik nm is just a troll.
that's why im so fine with him getting hung d1.

...especially when he reps into a meta scum slot
hence why we don't leave him to be vigged by a vig that ~may or may not exist~

I'd like to have a mini discussion on this after the game.

I skimmed through your posts in open 733. Looks like there's more to your scum game than what meets the eye.

I think I need to play with you more before I can meta read you.

See in giyga's curse (feels like years ago) you had this air of uncertainty and lack of solid opinions and I would have described you as a shy/passive go-with-the-flow kind of player. A common enough scum technique but also if done well can get away with it undetected. General theme would be 'hiding' from direct attention.

In 733 it seems you were following a more proactive 'point attention elsewhere' technique. Less talking about yourself, more pushing of cases, more asking direct questions that don't require you to give opinions yourself but allow you to divert attention onto the person being asked the question.

In terms of post quantity I'd say this game is closer to 733, but content wise I'm not seing a consistent agenda of avoiding the spotlight here. You're neither hiding nor trying to avoid getting into it with people. But I'm not sensing any real motivation to figuring things out either. It reads like that one tired player in every rl game asking everyone "aren't we done yet?"

[BuJaber]

like i think it's easy to be confident cj slot was flipping scum if you know that he's scum if that makes sense

Slam dunk

But while my meta dive is iconsistent I'm leaning town for tw. I also don't think we should discount sky's play. Still can't she'd play scum so jestery.

[BuJaber]

Inconclusive*
Can't imagine*

[BuJaber]

it seems like there's a lot of fluffy stuff and I'm getting a kinda self important/lotta clout energy but also like non nuanced 1 dimensional reads but i guess that's pretty consistent with his town meta so *shrugs

This is true but that's more recently.

Like he posted a whole lot and townspewed and got himself townread by pretty much everyone. Then he justifiably kinda started egoposting as a result since roughly the last few pages of day 1 when he was talking about who will get NK'd.

You really think he'd get comfortable enough to do that as scum? Not the impression I got from Forest Fire.

[BuJaber]

the people i townread are: vex, ruru, enigma, creature

the people i don't are: buj, alonzo, tw, ge, ejji

and three of them are on that wagon

And that makes sense to you?

We know there's a traitor and a groupscum left alive.

You have to ask yourself if both could be on gamma in only 4 votes or if one of them is bussing the other (gamma) in only 4 votes.

If the answer is no to both of those then ejj should either be confirmed scum to you or you know for a fact you are townreading scum.

[BuJaber]

Sounds like you need a flip.

I guess my point boils down to you have a big scum pool that seems awfully coincidental. It seems strange that almost all of them are on the same wagon and one of them is the player being wagoned.

And then you're townpool in comparison is small but all of them are off the wagon with the exception of the IC.

So it's like you created a line that is gamma. But that would make sense if you townread gamma but you don't.

I know you didn't claim to arrive at that pool

because

we're voting for gamma, so that's what makes it strange. If it were for that reason it'd be natural to get the playerlist divide that you ended up with. But you seemed to end up with it completely independently and I guess I found it a weird coincidence and I don't trust coincidences in a game of reads, human intrraction, and deception.

If I trust my townread on you then the logical conclusion is that you are being fooled by one or more of your townreads. Or I am wrong about you and this is a result of you unable to keep up with your lies and fake reads to keep them aligned/consistent. I'd rather play with the assumption that I'm right since it's easier and better for my ego.

[BuJaber]

you're

F me. YOUR

[BuJaber]

i think we view this very differently; i'm still not really following the bolded; to me a logical conclusion is that i'm scumreading town, not that i'm townreading scum? i don't get why that follows from the above discussion

It refers to my pov. Because I don't think scum!tw and scum!alonzo would both be voting for gamma if he's town nor do I think his buddy would bus him this early in the day if he's scum.

From your pov yes the above would be the most logical conclusion given your reads but I understand that you can dislike a wagon without townreading the person being wagoned.

[BuJaber]

Until a cop actually flips alonzo is innocent. Move on.

[BuJaber]

I can't remember why but I have the HotWaterService/Alonzo slot down as pretty town

Only player getting inno'd by two people

[BuJaber]

i know that you probably meant this in jest and that it's rvs but i think this is slightly more likely to come from scum tbh

yet you don't opt to end rvs by voting me?

i mean, i think we're out of rvs at this point

why should i have voted you there?

Because from your point of view I'm more likely to be scum than ruru at the moment

A50/ruru/Creature/skitter/vex feel town imo

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=77029

What is this showing?

[BuJaber]

I didn't read their neighborhood. If it's relevant to this game let me know.

[BuJaber]

That's not fair. I asked a simple question. Did you post to joke / meme or is it relevant to this game?
There really is no need for me to read a private topic of a different completed game if it won't inform my decisions in this one.

And even if I did I might still not see what you see.

[BuJaber]

@ruru : I'm not sure what you wanted us to see. All I got was skitter tried very hard as scum in that game, her effort here doesn't come close imo. Also that sky took that game very seriously as town and put in a lot of effort.

But reading that led me to read other PTs... and I found this:

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=76763&start=275

Post 288. Aug 30th.

This game started Aug 24th.
Unless skitter is playing 4D chess......
She's town here.

[BuJaber]

Sky's? I'm trying to make sense of her actions.

Nothing she did here really aligns with how she played in pyp. I just still don't know how someone who puts that much effort into trying to win (she really stepped up as soon as she felt comfortable ausuka was town, their analysis of setup was really good, and she continued to try and utilize her neighborhoods), can roll scum and switch the attitude around completely.
But maybe A50 was right. Maybe sky really is a traitor who's just going for broke and being obvious about it.

Got any scum meta on sky? Could you see that from her?
Might be easier than trying to sort tw.

[BuJaber]

Well the difference is as town there's less pressure on each individual townie to play well than it there is on each scum player.

A town player can survive being scumread then townread then scumread again because ultimately their individual death does not severely impact town. Especially not in the early game.

Playing scum with continuous pressure/suspicion on your slot for an entire game is an absolutely wretched existence and makes it far harder to win.

Even if say one scum player plays poorly and gets suspected .. they still have to be careful up to the last living minute not to hurt their teammates by associations or something like that.
So minimum effort required as scum is much higher than that as town.
I could totally understand her taking it easy for the beginning of the game as town after pyp, and then picking it up at a later time. Doing it as scum though is her not trying at all.

[BuJaber]

Yeah we tried this new strategy where 1 of us flakes out, 1 of us jesters it up then replaces out, and the last one refuses to bus either. Totally plausible

[BuJaber]

Because that was tw and not me and that was at a time when cjv wasn't an obvious lynch. There were many other optioms to shade.

[BuJaber]

I'm fairly confident we've had a wagon on at least one scum today and the fact that the game is just stalling seems to point to scum not wanting to bus

That is more indicative of there being a wagon on scum right now.

If everyone, town and scum alike, are posting very little scum cannot bus and risk a quick hammer from the absent townies. They cannot aggressively push the counterwagon because as soon as a mislynch occurs the other player would be a prime suspect.

[BuJaber]

tw apparently isn't an obvious lynch either.

So why are you drawing the parallel between us then?

TW if scum, bussed his not-obviously-getting-lynched partner.

Now you're saying if I'm scum I'm NOT bussing my not-obviously-getting-lynched partner.

[BuJaber]

I think tw is more likely to make endgame right now than ceejay was to make endgame even before tw claimed a guilty

I would agree but if that was the plan behind tw's bussing why wouldn't scum!me join the cjv wagon also?

[BuJaber]

yes, both of those are things that scum do.

So how did you decide it was scummy for tw to do it then?

If both options are things scum would do how do you determine when it's actually AI?

[BuJaber]

yes, both of those are things that scum do.

So how did you decide it was scummy for tw to do it then?

If both options are things scum would do how do you determine when it's actually AI?

I believe I have several posts on this subject

Yes but when I read them earlier I got the impression it was specific to TW. Now that you are presenting it in this way it contradicts that notion. So it's not clear to me anymore why you thought TW was scum if this is a general thing that scum would do in that scenario.

let's talk about this:

That is more indicative of there being a wagon on scum right now.

If everyone, town and scum alike, are posting very little scum cannot bus and risk a quick hammer from the absent townies. They cannot aggressively push the counterwagon because as soon as a mislynch occurs the other player would be a prime suspect.

so, suppose this implies gamma is scum because your vote is there so I assume you mean him

the counterwagons of tw and alonzo have basically been aggressively solo pushed by me; one of them must be town

do you think scum would be displaying support when I push town?

Not without some town support first. One vote is not a wagon.

[BuJaber]

Well gamma I think is scum.
Vex and skitter I think are town regardless of how they vote.
Alonzo is hypothetically innocent
That leaves enigma who I still scumread and tw who's more like null.

Even if I accept that you would scumread two opposite behaviors in the same game, I still don't see how you jumo to me being a teammate of tw.

[BuJaber]

Why didn't you spend the time the game was pretty dead to reread V's word vomit as you call it?

[BuJaber]

even tho I'm not 100% sure I can sort you, it's actually quite a lot easier assuming you're down then working with you + sorting once you have more content and are submerged in the spiritual flow of the game

if that makes sense
I'm loosely aware I might be spouting gibberish but eh

Yeah that part doesn't make sense

Actually even the part before it.. why would you assume she'd do the same thing as you?

[BuJaber]

if being at l1 would make you more motivated that could definitely be arranged

This line was funny to me. Sounds like it's from a cheesy old mafia movie.

TW: were you reading the game at all before replacing in?

[BuJaber]

if being at l1 would make you more motivated that could definitely be arranged

This line was funny to me. Sounds like it's from a cheesy old mafia movie.

TW: were you reading the game at all before replacing in?

not a word of it!
I like the setup and I ofrhz is teh best so when I saw she needed a replacement I PM'd reflexively.

Right.. so why would town!you here care to read sky's posts at all? Why would town!you feel the need to state that you don't need to townread her? Why would you care about what she was or wasn't thinking? And why would you care what we thought about your predecessor at all?

Nobody should ride on people's townread of their predecessor. Presenting a towncase on a predecessor is stupid as you can't even read them as an informed 3rd party. So why are you stating the obvious?

Only scum would care so they can be consistent with their prdecessor or not blow up associations.

[BuJaber]

I'm only not voting for enigma because there doesn't seem to be any support for that wagon at all skitter in particular is pretty publicly opposing it though to be fair she never mentioned why he's town just that she doesn't see anything scummy about him. Also because he seems pretty busy and quiet site-wide I'm focusing on active folk for now.

[BuJaber]

Considering you replaced ejji who eplaced frank I'm not just going to sheep you just like that.

[BuJaber]

I get that but there isn't a convincing towncase on gamma and he's 4 votes in and has been a stalemate counterwagon to Alonzo.
So Gamma takes precedence for now while you catchup/get reactions from others.

[BuJaber]

@iirelephant - gamma case boils down to having no memorable posts, I don't really know his stance on most players.
From what I know of him he's also a bit of a fighter he will get up in people's faces and argue his point of view and tell them why their's is shit. I don't see him as someone who will just take it and accept that he's being scumread/wagoned.
Just in general a townie often reacts to being scumread. From town's pov doesn't really matter how many votes are piled on. It might urge them to do more sure.. like how nsg plays.. but I don't see towm!gamma just ignoring the wagon hoping it dies. He's too calm about and I'm not buying it. And then mechanically the gamestate and counterwagon situation points to alonzo/gamma but I don't think it's Alonzo.

Traitor + groupscum left because cjv flipped goon.

Sorry I missed the chance for real timing with you I was in bed last time I posted.

@ruru - I do tend to post more as town but not all days are equal and the gamestate activity level has been pretty poor. When I replaced it was like 30 pages but then I only actually caught up around 45 or something so I missed a pretty big chunk of reacting to things as they happen. I'm not the type that splits up my posts in chunks.. it works for some but I don't like reading that style and I don't like doing it myself. Especially while phone posting which with my timezone jt tends to be during my workbreaks when most players are actually online.

[BuJaber]

Is skitter ever fully confident?

[BuJaber]

@mod - I have to work over the weekend. I don't expect to disappear completely but I'll declare V/LA until sunday night just in case.

Got it! -ofrhz

[BuJaber]

Pushing you for the lynch.

If you could refrain from saying things that mean the opposite of what you mean, that'd be helpful please.

[BuJaber]

What? How does my statement assume that? Recruited traitor is still a traitor

[BuJaber]

Ahh okay nevermind ofrhz posted a recruited traitor PM and it says Mafia goon in the actual PM.

Pedit - you asking made me go back and check. that's what happens when you skim mod posts.

[BuJaber]

Vex is back

Any updates on reads?

[BuJaber]

Tfw your d1 scumread is getting wagoned
VOTE: Enigma

[BuJaber]

I also highly doubt that Buj is that good to the point where he can play the exact same way as town or scum.

That's actually why I've been forcing myself to vary my play a little as town.

For what it's worth irrelephant seems townie atm. Better entrance than both his predecessors by miles at the very least.

I feel like tw should be easier to townread by now. I'm getting paranoid because imo his strength lies in knowing how to not appear scummy moreso than trying to look townie. That's my impression from giyga's curse. He won because people didn't really have a reason to suspect him.

[BuJaber]

I want to know why he townread me that game actually That game was multi-ball it was easy to fake scumhunt because I was actually scumhunting. But it didn't really fly with most.

[BuJaber]

I also highly doubt that Buj is that good to the point where he can play the exact same way as town or scum.

That's actually why I've been forcing myself to vary my play a little as town.

For what it's worth irrelephant seems townie atm. Better entrance than both his predecessors by miles at the very least.

I feel like tw should be easier to townread by now. I'm getting paranoid because imo his strength lies in knowing how to not appear scummy moreso than trying to look townie. That's my impression from giyga's curse. He won because people didn't really have a reason to suspect him.

I'd say my ~~secret strength~~ as scum is playing reactively to a player list sometimes, which isn't even something I always have the energy to do

taking a leaf out of Karina's book and vomiting self meta: if I'm a wolf bussing groupscum d1 and then playing a bad wolfgame would not be my finest hour

My journey of discovering your meta has only just begun. 2 (?)Games is nothing

[BuJaber]

So scum like almost definitely bussed? Which is already the conclusion to make when they shoot off wagon...

like calling a50 "off wagon" is just misunderstanding how d1 went down.

it's a p literal stance lmao
shooting offwagon = the literal vote's on the wagon are unresolved. given high bussing equity it's +ev to town from a vca pov to have some solving on that wagon

so from a vca pov that's not a misunderstanding it's blatantly true

Re-phrase this please

[BuJaber]

Korina is town please don't make him write another essay on self-meta
I think we had it right earlier gamma v alonzo counterwagons points to 1 scum there. Look how excited people got to vote elsewhere and how much more divided the VC is now.

Enigma + gamma scumteam

[BuJaber]

Can't blame skitter for just sheeping.

Took a long time for y'all to see it.
VOTE: gamma
L-1

[BuJaber]

{Tw, enigma, elephant, alonzo}
If I'm not cop that's my scumpool.
This is my scumpool if I'm cop:
{Enigma, elephant}

VOTE: Enigma

[BuJaber]

Elephant I understood why you thought scum bussed but why would gamma have to be town for that? Like he was scummy and in day 2 was neck and neck for alonzo which points to 1 scum between them in most games.


Based on preds mostly and I feel your posts aren't particularly AI.

[BuJaber]

So it's hard to tip the scales in your favor if I'm nulling on you and scumreading the double flakeout

[BuJaber]

And frank's play was poor.

[BuJaber]

Rel: It's much easier to see and accept your point in hindsight, but frankly I didn't really get it because I kept looking for 3 scum and forgetting to count NM as 1 and that just kept confusing me as I reread your post. It's probably because I keep thinking of it as the cjv wagon not the NM wagon.

But saying ruru is refusing to accept it is a mischaracterization. She believes she's right also regardless of alignment. And there is the point to make that town could statistically get it right sometimes by pure chance. Wagons tend to attract sheeping whether consciously or subconsciously. You only really one or two townies reading only 1 scum correctly and 1 or 2 townies reading another scum correctly and you could easily end up with the read sccuracy thing you're describing.

I think you're right to go for the more statistically probable assumption and be mathematically right a lot of the time but expecting people to agree with you and go along is unreasonable. People tend to trust their reads no matter how improbable they are.

Also consider all scenarios where there is a day 1 scum lynch. In a lot of them you will find town has pretty good accuracy. Even the absolute worst case scenario is all 3 scum vote on wagon, and all 6 townies off wagon getting it wrong, which is still 40% accuracy and higher than the random chance.

Plus you're analysis of the a50 nk is being factored into your vc analysis, and the problem with that is people aren't going to think the same as you. Scum could nk without even thinking about the VC. And then there's all the WIFOM and other possible variables like PR hunting or whatever.

[BuJaber]

Right good.

Anyone townreading enigma here?

[BuJaber]

I’m still back to back travelling for work for the next two weeks so posting may be sporadic.

You just beat skitter in the VLA competition.

Phantismo.. got any past games where you repped into a scum slot?

[BuJaber]

Yeah you are lol
I mean.. I wanted to see how genuine/convincing you can sound as scum. Don't think those will help for that.

How about just any recent scum games then?

[BuJaber]

There weren't any sando moments in this game for me to react to.

Reality is I'm not good at repping in yet. It's a new experience. The foundation of my reads usually lies within the early pages. But I wasn't here for them. Like because of my timezone I generally start actually posting around 6+ pages in. But then I immediately start pointing stuff out that happened in RVS and subsequent pages and I get real time reactions to my early reads and that helps me sort the whole playerbase eventually, in a way that is rooted in much more information so I'm more confident.

The only thing I'm sure of here is that skitter and Vex are town. But korina has since really dropped his posting and enthusiasm which is meh but like I really don't think he can pull of the townspamming as scum. Particularly the parts where he's so sure he's on par with creature on the NK-attractiveness scale.

Skitter's posts seem townie enough and like she's not trying to subtly move the game in any particular selfish direction. But really my confidence in that read is based purely on the out of game stuff so I have nothing to talk about there.

I really haven't played enough with ruru to know how well she plays as scum and our playstyles sort of clash naturally from what I saw in X/Y. Like I still don't understand what the fake claim was hoping to achieve.

Enigma is an early game read which I kinda trust.

I don't like tw's posting at all recently because he feels like he's just sort of going with the flow. Only thing he got passionate and motovated about was defending himself. No obvious effort in sorting people. But he's my hypo inno.

Don't know how to read Alonzo which is why he was my first hypo inno.

I mean there's like only 3 choices for me: enigma, phantismo and ruru. Ruru my gut says town and nobody apart from elephant exoressed a scumread on her... If she's scum here she probably just wins

[BuJaber]

Why are you so sure ruru's town?

[BuJaber]

I'm not arguing against the read I want to know your reasons if you please.

Because from my pov he's been given a case for you being scum but not really pushing it and like I expect you to be suspicious of him for that.

[BuJaber]

Massclaim tomorrow.
Creature was NK meaning scum will likely NK based on hypo-innos next. If any investigatives exist they should be given one more day to get results. And since it doesn't look like we have vig/bg one investigative is guaranteed.

[BuJaber]

I think #2.
It gives us a pretty good chance of PR(s) living through the night and tomorrow we'd be an odd number.

[BuJaber]

Wait nvm I counted creature.. we wouldn't be odd tomorrow

[BuJaber]

Okay I found the alive list and it's 8 right now.. I was right the first time

[BuJaber]

I'm pretty sleepy sorry

VOTE: no lynch

[BuJaber]

I don't think massclaim + no lynch works kinda defeats the purpose so do you want to lynch today?

[BuJaber]

@TW: where were you in day 1 when I brought this case forward and you replaced in at pretty much the same time?

Where were you when I took shit for it multiple times?

Why is this desire to reread and sort day 1 coming only now? The boredom in this game did not start just recently. You had time before.

Right now when people are finally softening up to the idea of an enigma wagon after their hypo-innos have reduced the scum pool you come up with this case that practically mirrors mine?

Why are you opposed to both massclaiming and no lynching give reasons please.

Why are you trying to backtrack on your TR of ruru? She's been pretty consistent in her approach on you. What triggered you to change your approach to her now?

[BuJaber]

How does that answer my question?

[BuJaber]

How does that answer my question?

The reason the worst started "trying to backtrack on [his] TR of ruru" is because like 5 pages ago you said "I'd expect you to scumread ruru for the way she's treating you"

Oh I see
Me the person is the trigger not me the subject.

This only makes if I'm scum with him though.
What would your read of him be if I flip green?

[BuJaber]

Ruru - Repout NAI. Can't say more

As long as we agree to massclaim + lynch.

Though I'm still in favor of no lynch + no massclaim just for tonight

[BuJaber]

oh, so in other news, we have different options today and I'm not sure which is best:
1. massclaim
2. no lynch, massclaim tomorrow
3. lynch, massclaim tomorrow (if green)

I'm not sure if #3 is that good actually

I tentatively like #1 I think?

Massclaim tomorrow.
Creature was NK meaning scum will likely NK based on hypo-innos next. If any investigatives exist they should be given one more day to get results. And since it doesn't look like we have vig/bg one investigative is guaranteed.

are you in favor of #2 or #3?

I think #2.
It gives us a pretty good chance of PR(s) living through the night and tomorrow we'd be an odd number.

@skitter and performer ^ those are my reasons. Basically to increase the odds of a PR getting results one more day. If they do it should be enough to solve the game. And then we'd start tomorrow with an odd number.

@enigma - you over elephant because my scumread on you is longer and rooted in more information. Elephant has been talking and engaging with people and reacting to current stuff real time. He is sortable. I don't see myself realistically changing my mind on you without a confirmed inno. With my scumpool, my hypo-innos and my PoE the optimal lynch order is you > elephant.

[BuJaber]

@Performed you should read this day fully as a minimum.

[BuJaber]

Massclaim tomorrow.
Creature was NK meaning scum will likely NK based on hypo-innos next. If any investigatives exist they should be given one more day to get results.

And since it doesn't look like we have vig/bg one investigative is guaranteed.

We have a minimum of two confirmed TPRs. One was IC. We know there is at least one within {goon cop, rb, tracker}, if we make deductions based on night actions no bg or vig. This does not mean that we have at least one investigative guaranteed (unless you know scum took mods, in which case there is at least 2 TPRs existing).

Am I reading too much into this?

- Goon Cop
- Roleblocker
- Tracker

- Bodyguard

- Vigilante

- Innocent Child (reveal at start of day one)

If we have one between {goon cop, roleblocker, tracker} then we do have one investigative. Roleblocker works like an investigative once we're down to 1 scum and can be used to confirm roles (potential inno) or stop a kill (which is a guilty barring some No-killing WIFOM from scum) when there are 2 scum.

[BuJaber]

I haven't eliminated the possibility.

I could see him bussing for some quick towncred since he repped into a shady slot.

But I think it's more likely only one of you is scum. I am more confident in that than in both being scum, and I need to see who flips scum before nailing down the team. Especially if it's a traitor flip then the associations are only going to be informed one way.

[BuJaber]

I would agree but I think it's because of the hypo-innos.

Everyone if PR wants to avoid the NK
Everyone if VT wants to eat the NK.

That means with the hypo-innos people can't actually fully share their thoughts. You have to kinda take every scumpool with a grain of salt.

You can't even force someone to give away too much info in fear that they will VT/PR spew.

That's why either increase the odds of PR living til romorrow, or massclaim and let's move on to genuine solving.

[BuJaber]

I'd much rather have PRs living one more night so I'm strongly favoring no massclaim no lynch

[BuJaber]

Ruru before korina

[BuJaber]

If everyone checks in and agrees.

I still say massclaim tomorrow

[BuJaber]

Elephant as soon as I put Alonzo back in my scumpool I would have confirmed to everyone that it was a fake inno. Had to double down on that. Also skitter was the 2nd one hypo-inno'ing Alonzo not tw. Tw just had a TR on him.

Anyway no need for that anymore..

I'm a VT

[BuJaber]

Wait a minute. Buj why do you scumread alonzo?

I wasn't impressed with predecessor
But really it was the day 2 stalling we had when Alonzo and Gamma were counterwagons. It makes me thing one of them is scum. So I voted for gamma because Alonzo was my hypo inno.

[BuJaber]

Elephant do you like phantismo ? Which do you prefer? Or I could call you ele for convenience.

Anyway why the change of attitude? You came in pretty hot and taking some immediate stances some of which were pretty unique like the gamma townread. Now you're somewhat unsure of yourself and sheepy.

[BuJaber]

Phantismo is my nickname for elephant.

UNVOTE:

[BuJaber]

Performer- I townread skitter because of a combination of meta (she is posting a lot while maintaining her vague confused, and nullish stances) her meta is actually infuriating and allows her to safely coast as scum but she's pretty much correct about her meta from what I've seen.
Also there are a few fourth wall breaking reasons to TR her, like the fact that she, in the mafia thread of pyp x/y implied that she is scum in 2 games. That one and some other game that isn't this. That post was made after this game starts. I can see her fooling us by imitating her town meta, but I don't see her fooling herself or forgetting she's scum in this game.

Her saying she would have killed ruru by now is kinda bs if you ask me because it's only day 3 in a setup with an IC and possible PRs and ruru's play, especially with a strong townread on her would not have justified an NK. But I do absolutely believe that she would not keep ruru alive until endgame if she were scum.

VOTE: Enigma

Ruru and Alonzo prove their towniness by getting killed..

That leaves {ele, performer} as last scum.

I highly doubt Korina is scum here.

[BuJaber]

Like if Alonzo doesn't get killed he is 100% scum here.

[BuJaber]

oh maybe that's not what I thought it meant.

[BuJaber]

Technically both but like no scum would target ruru herself she would only die if alonzo is town.

[BuJaber]

i feel kinda :/ about you using the pyp x|y reasoning to townread me cuz it feels kinda angle-shoot-y. i guess i should have been more careful about that but it's not something i meant to do on purpose

I mean... I brought it up a lot earlier.. this was just for the benefit of performer.

I don't feel great about using it... but like it happened and it's not something you should feel bad about at all because it's not your fault.. it was a private mafia thread and it's pretty unreasonable to expect anyone to consider how it could affect an entirely different game. But like I can't exactly ignore it and I had you as a townread before this just helped relieve any paranoia and help me locktown you.

[BuJaber]

Yeah that's probably true of scum in general but I think it's usually to try to imitate townie confidence or something like that.

Here the impact of your surprise flip in pyp was distracting people from solving the game. I felt it was necessary to force focus on sorting other players.

[BuJaber]

Still not liking the magical addition of me into his sr list with irrelephant and me as bujaber's sr. No explanation at all after scrolling through his more recent posts. Intent to vote bujaber, but I want to hear from alonz & enigma first.

What are you talking about?

You guys didn't magically appear in my scumreads.

Tw was my hypo inno so I had to pretend I townread him. When we massclaimed this was not needed at all. Same with alonzo. If he hadn't claimed PR I'd be pushing for his lynch right now, but he did and we can easily confirm his alignment by him getting killed tonight if ruru is lying or tomorrow if ruru isn't lying.

Phantismo's slot was always in my scumreads anyway.

You say you're reading but you are either incredibly confused or are scum pretending to be new/confused.

[BuJaber]

I don't like phantismo's progression on my slot. Like you had a lot invested in sorting tw/ruru but then you started to really commit yourself to this idea of me triggering tw's change of attitude and using that to connect me to him and scumread me for it..

Even if that were true and me saying that flipped switch in his head I don't see how it conmects me to him. If you go ahead and lynch me and I flip town how would you read performer?

Like this case compared to your gamma town case is less clearly thought out and presented rather poorly and it feels lile you just want to lynch me for the hell of it when there is a perfectly good case on enigma that you yourself have also brought up.

[BuJaber]

@ele: let's see...
Possible scum teams:

If enigma flips town:
- ruru + you
- ruru + alonzo
- you + alonzo
And by PoE performer with any of {you, ruru, alonzo}
If enigma flips town then ruru dies at night (pretty much confirms alonzo town):
- you + performer

If enigma flips scum:
- you
- ruru
- performer
And alonzo by PoE
If enigma flips scum and ruru dies at night:
- you
- performer


Without getting two mislynches in a row I'm not considering korina.. pretty confident TR there. And skitter is just town.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: skitter

Do tell

- ruru + alonzo

this is probably a bit indicative of faked reads

I think me not being included in that analysis is indicative of his read on me being faked (ie this is an example of abnormally strong reads, that he's considering you/alonzo as being more likely than me being scum at all)

That's the thing with breaking the 4th wall.

@Korina: I was specifically listing possible scumteams based on my read. Before the nightkill happens neither ruru nor alonzo are confirmed. Both have been scummy at different times during the game and townie at others. Before the claim they were not obvtown by any means.

[BuJaber]

Not if a townie fake claimed VT. It's dangerous in this setup but there a few people here who if they did that as gc or tracker, will end up winning the game for town because they will never be NK'd and hopefully won't be lynched.

But basically yeah.. more reason to scumread enigma.

[BuJaber]

And I appreciate your thinking.

But fakeclaiming VT is the opposite. As long as you can avoid getting lynched, the advantages are well worth it.

[BuJaber]

BuJ you say I have been scummy at times, but you have not called me out on it once or barely interacted with me.

You didn't even react when I voted you.

I'm just getting caught scum Vibes now, and you trying to sow the seeds of confusion

You speculate about me fakeclaiming, And shade me to the others but you're avoiding me completely feels like.

I don't think you're fakeclaiming. I was asked who would be scum if enigma flips town and in that scenario, if you or ruru do not die at night you would be a suspect. Because one of the VTs could actually be a TPR.

Earlier I hypo inno'd you. Unlike some people who accidentally or (maybe intentionally), I don't push my hypo innos.

[BuJaber]

@Preformer Tbf, Skitter and I were TRing Enigma earlier on.
I'll post more substancial things later.

Do you still TR him? If so could you give a case on him now giving all we know and the role claims?

[BuJaber]

So the argument here is alonzo RB'd enigma and there was a kill so I shouldn't be voting enigma?

You know that doesn't clear enigma until we're down to 1 scum alive right?

And then RB inno's are even messier if a 2nd groupscum gets lynched because there's scum holstering WIFOM and traitor possibilities.

Like if I weren't town how do you imagine my potential scumteam list would differ?
I have irrefutable evidence for skitter being town that people are deliberately choosing to ignore because it feels icky to use or whatever.. and I have pretty solid meta on Korina. It's not impossible for him to be scum here but before we actually confirm everyone's claims I'm not going to trust slots I don't really know over meta I trust.

How could you say that I'm methodical and systematic but not see why my scumteam theorizing makes sense? If you don't get something ask. Nobody asked.

[BuJaber]

Okay now I know for sure people didn't understand my PoE list of teams.

The top section here:

If enigma flips town:
- ruru + you
- ruru + alonzo
- you + alonzo
And by PoE performer with any of {you, ruru, alonzo}

Refers to JUST the time from enigma getting lynched today, to the start of day 4. It is what my reads would be with an enigma town flip because it would be a hard reset of assumptions.

I concede here that it was a dumb thing to do but I originally wanted to include all possibilities including all NKs and it got way too complicated and I decided it was pretty useless and cut out most of it, while still keeping the main point which is that the enigma flip is not enough on its own to solve the game.

As for you, maybe we didn't have a lot of direct engagement but since you did take a commanding role here I was happy with the nulltown/townlean because nothing stood out as particularly scummy. I did have at some point a theory that you and tw are partners but that doesn't seem likely given that you hypothetically would have been bussing him hard and for you to suddenly switch to a TR after his replaceout doesn't make a lot of sense.

Thing is with gamma flipping town I was sure Alonzo was scum but I kept the hypo inno thing going and frankly I'm surprised that he claimed PR. Now that he did though we can quite easily test both of you and either get two conf towns or 1-2 confscums.

And tbh I don't think I've ever considered the possibility that I got everything wrong in any game before so gamma being town and enigma flipping town AND Alonzo being town who also happens to be a tpr would be pretty shocking.

[BuJaber]

There's such a thing as PoE ele..

For me personally I had two strong TRs, and there are 2 un-cc'd PR claims. From what I can see everyone else is in a similar position, blame PR-setups, not the players. People will always take the lazy route (mechanically sorting people) than actual engagement. But in a lot of setups that strategy is optimal. Take ruru in this game for example.. he is either bg or he suicided as scum.. why waste any effort in sorting her?

[BuJaber]

Since this looks to be my last post.. the optimal lynch order tomorrow is actually enigma > performer > ele, assuming both ruru and alonzo are dead. Meaning alonzo should block one of them.

[BuJaber]

@Perf - I know my writing is not the best but how could you possibly understand my post that way?

You can't have 3 lynches in one day phase either.. so why did I put 3 names there huh? Why don't you ask that question too?

[BuJaber]

I don't mind the PT being shared as is.

[BuJaber]

I don't agree
I lost the NK chess against A50 and ruru.

[BuJaber]

Maybe I should have shot ruru directly but I had thought bg was ruru or korina and I didn't want to shoot wrong so I shot the likely bg target.

Also thanks for repping out and ruining my plans it was working for like 1 second.

[BuJaber]

Well done everyone.
Particularly A50 and ruru for messing with the NKs
Ele's reads were pretty on point.
Ruru did a good job being a town leader in general.
Good job skitter and korina for obvtowning and powering through sticking to your guts.
Very well done to my partner enigma, did well in an impossible situation - sorry you had to face my bussing without prior explanation but maybe that was a good thing in disguise.
And fair enough with the page tops. The read is a bit more complex than that but whatever people don't really get my RVS reads. It's to do with the proportion of non-relevant posts to relevant posts and the tone in which someone posts combined. A lot of it is probably just gut tbh.