In post 8222, BROseidon wrote: In post 8219, zoraster wrote:I don't think MF is more similar to Brand, but if you want to test the idea that MF and Ashe are fundamentally similar, one way to look at it would be to look at their win rate by patch, though you'd want to note any time either of their kits had major changes. You'd probably also want to throw in a couple of ADCs that are DEFINITELY different, like Tristana and Ez. If MF/Ashe have win rate movement that mirrors each other, then (particularly if Tris/ez move opposite), you might get a sense that they're really similar to each other. You could also look at their win rate by game length to to see if their curves are similar.
That doesn't really hold because differences within a class can also be meaningful. "ADCs are systemically broken" doesn't mean "all ADCs are broken at all times." In fact, it can't, because every team having 1 ADC (in most metas/with a few exceptions) means that ADCs as a class will even out to a 50% winrate. In addition, once you get past "ADCs are required on all teams," the difference WITHIN the class become more meaningful b/c every team HAS to have one.
I don't think of Ashe as very similar to MF though other than both are fairly immobile ADCs (though MF's movement speed buff is nice). Just thinking team composition-wise, I don't think the reasons you'd pick Ashe or MF would be very similar. Ashe brings a ton of utility to the team that MF doesn't, for one thing. And I mean... for the past couple of years their builds have been truly different.
Except they are both ADCs. They both provide 0-CD AD based sustained damage. They both stay at range and use a certain spacing skillset. Most importantly, those things are very valuable at taking objectives (especially sieging turrets)
I've heard Bro's complaints about ADCs before which have basically not changed. I remain unswayed as to whether it's a bad thing or even as to the reason that ADCs have been a very consistent fixture in the game, though I at least think there's some merit as to that.
It's very the case that ADCs are required because they're decently balanced for every part of the game except taking turrets where they are the best class. There are other champs that provide great scaling, sustained damage in fights (Karthus and Cass, for instance), but they've NEVER been meta in bot lane because, well, try sieging a turret with Karthus lol.
You put way, way, way too much focus on long range sieging of turrets. ADCs power comes from their ability to put out sustained long-range damage, but it's not because they're able to peck at turrets. That's been super important in some metas, but not in many (including this one).
Let's go through a pro series played recently, FNC vs. EDG. Here is EVERY tower taken:
Game 1
1(EDG). Broxah goes top to try to gank Ray, EDG respond by sending Haro to bot lane where they push Rekkles and Hylissang off the turret and take the tower. (Deficio: "Now haro can go bot lane because Broxah showed himself top")
2(EDG). Scout (on Leblanc) takes a turret uncontested top side (she's 4/0/1 at this point and up like 30 CS)
3(EDG). iBoy, Meiko, Haro simply push Rekkles (who has no wave clear) and Caps off the turret) midlane
4(EDG). Rekkles is dived while he defends midlane tier two turret, dies to the combo of Haro (on Xin) and Meiko (on Rakkan) as well as iBoy's Xayah. Simply take the turret after this.
5(FNC). Caps pushed top lane while tower 4 was going on, doesn't actually get the turret immediately (he falls back when he sees Ray) but minions finish it off despite Ray getting there before the turret goes down.
6(EDG). Everyone's bot lane! This would be a time when that ADC range plays a big part. But it doesn't really because the turret falls as a result of a Meiko engage onto Caps followed up by Haro leading to a big team fight. iBoy finishes off the turret (while he's in melee range of the turret fwiw).
7(EDG). The top tier 2 turret falls. This is actually an example where the range does play a significant part because it's Scout (who is ranged on Leblanc) and iBoy attacking from the back while Fnatic are left with only an Alistar to try to engage on them from too far away.
8(EDG). Mid inner turret falls to a baroned up 3 players, all of whom are melee. But EDG is so far ahead at this point it doesn't matter.
9-10(EDG). Up 14k with Baron, they just kill them and take the turrets at the same time.
EDG wins 9 turrets to 1. The game wasn't very competitive, but the overall story was winning turrets by fighting or threatening a fight, not the type of siegery that was seen in some previous metas.
Game 2
1(EDG). Similar to turret 1 in game 1. Broxah shows himself mid for a dive, Haro goes bot, pushes Rekkles and Hylissang off, takes first turret.
2(FNC). Bwipo (Viktor) has slowly pushed the top lane into Ray (Shen) leading to turret 1 for FNC about 30 seconds after the first turret. Ray has to back off because he doesn't have vision of Xin and Haro is bot lane.
3(FNC). Mid lane fight! FNC aces EDG and takes mid lane tier 1 after.
4(FNC). Bwipo forces Ray out of bot lane, Broxah summons Rift Herald. Bot Tier 1 goes down uncontested.
5(FNC). Bwipo basically forces Ray out of the Tier 2 turret because Ray knows Broxah is around. Bwipo has no problem taking the turret down even though he's not an ADC.
6-8(FNC). Baroned up and with Scout down, FNC takes top Tier 2, top Inhib turret, Mid Tier 2 in very quick order.
9-11(FNC). Bot Inhib turret. A desperate fight takes place, baroned up minions still going. Then nexus turrets. No need for sieging, Caps does most work here.
FNC wins 10 turrets to 1. None that I could tell relied on the long range poke of the ADC to siege turrets. But like the other game, this was not a closely fought game.
Game 3
1(FNC). Meiko and Haro both collapse on Caps midlane, leaving bot lane exposed with iBoy having recalled. FNC use this opening to take the first turret.
2(EDG). EDG summon rift herald mid while Caps is dead, easily getting the turret.
3(EDG). Herald gets a good charge on Tier 2 mid, EDG push up enough to push back FNC. Get it.
4(FNC). Five man stack pushes up past turret and takes it easily. Hard to see what happened here, but clearly not the case of a siege.
5(EDG). Caps (on Yasuo) pretty ineffective at 1/4, can't push lane out and Scout and Haro take top Outer turret uncontested.
6(EDG). Ray (on Poppy) takes bot Tier 1 uncontested.
7(FNC). Fnatic take mid Tier 2 after winning a team fight around Dragon, getting Baron.
8(FNC). Bot Tier 2 with Baron, FNC push past the turret and use the Orn ultimate and Glacial Fissure to zone EDG out, taking it and falling back.
9(FNC). EDG get baron but lose Meiko and Ray. FNC push down mid and take inhib turret and inhib uncontested. (They tried to end but couldn't)
10(EDG). EDG gets a turret from a large minion wave while the two teams fight it out in mid.
11-12(FNC). 3 dead for EDG at Baron means FNC just pushes in and wins with ease.
Closer game! No siegery with ADCs.
Game 4
1(FNC). First turret doesn't fall until the 17th minute. Rekkles and Hylissang rotate from mid to bot where Bwipo is and they grab Tier 1 bot.
2(EDG). Haro and Scout respond by taking out Tier 1 top. Caps has to fall back and cede it.
3(FNC). Fnatic win a fight, take out Scout, and get the rest low. Despite losing Rekkles, they push past the turret and take Tier 1
4(FNC). Minions take down top Tier 1 while Baron fight is occurring.
5-7(FNC). Fnatic win a teamfight around Baron, push two lanes with baroned up minions with only Scout alive for 30 seconds when they take their 4th turret. They get Mid tier 2, top tier 2, mid inhib turret (and inhib), top inhib turret and inhib) before recalling. They aren't contested.
8(FNC). This is maybe the best time you could say that the ADC "sieged" a turret because Bwipo (on Swain) and Rekkles are using baroned up minions to step forward, take a shot, and then fall back while Caps ushers in two lanes of baroned up super minions.
9-10(FNC). Lotsa super minions.
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I'm not saying that the ADC's ability to quickly attack turrets for good damage from a distance is unimportant, but you've signed up for this overarching theory of League of Legends that doesn't really match the reality of play. Sieging happens, but there are plenty of other ways to get turrets down (and in fact the majority don't rely on sieging).
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