Overkill 1: Serenity/Firefly (GAME OVER)

[Tails]

Too many pages. Not reading. Somebody summarize this for me and tell me who I should sheep.

[Tails]

[Tails]

Too many pages. Not reading. Somebody summarize this for me and tell me who I should sheep.

Hey! I only got here about pages ago and some summary was put together for me including claims list and whatnot. Might be a good, shorter read if you're interested

Quotes please.

*break*

Tails what is your alignment?

Chaotic Neutral

[Tails]

Ari, if you can't find quotes, I'll take a page number.

[Tails]

Crap. Now I need to read some ISOs, cause stuff isn't adding up. Need to double check, but I think I spotted a thing.

[Tails]

Curse you Ari for making me actually work on this! If I'm right, Jingle is not town.

[Tails]

Does anybody know what "Overkill" means? Was it explained in the sign up thread or has anybody thought to ask?

[Tails]

Wtf is a chaotic neutral

It means "Screw you! I do what I want!"

[Tails]

Curse you Ari for making me actually work on this! If I'm right, Jingle is not town.

Are you sure you want to do this?

And yes. Yes I do. The worst that happens is that I find Jingle's ISO boring.

[Tails]

Isn’t trying to get HoB lynched over 3Ps townie?

I'm checking some timing stuff related to that post. It might not be as weird as I thought. His thought process on 3p is kinda really strange, though. I need to reread it and see how it looks in context. This may be an issue of Jingle's style changing since I last saw him in action. There's also a flavor element of the claim I'm having issues with, but it's probably nothing and shouldn't be taken into account. ISO read should resolve all of this.

It's just...2 pages...

[Tails]

LR?

[Tails]

Tails does it make a difference to know that Jingle has claimed Mason and Gamma has just now confirmed he is the other Mason?

I saw Ari's quote wall, tyvm. And I caught the second, but was keeping quiet in case my gut was wrong on Jingle. Like I said, there's some flavor issues I'm working through, but an ISO read will probably help.

[Tails]

Spoiler:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment

You guys are idiots.

[Tails]

I know, right! I get asked a silly question. I gave a silly answer.

[Tails]

Nancy is town from this confusion. Not so sure about Cheeky, though. That's too much of a "gotcha" response to me.

[Tails]

I haven't read Nico's ISO. So no clue.

[Tails]

@Nancy: It doesn't. I was asked what my alignment was, so I gave an alignment from D&D just to be cheeky. CN also happens to be the "I do what I want" alignment, which I thought was funny and kinda appropriate for this game.

[Tails]

Also Cheek, if my predecessor was trying to crumb something, why do you think I would tell you what it was?

[Tails]

Jabs, I'll probably end up sheeping today, unless I see something I really want to die. I'd be up for Toog, because what I've seen from other ISOs make me want that slot dead, but it's not really a town/scum read.

Quote the Drixx thing. That sounds interesting, and I don't want to dig for it.

[Tails]

@Jabs: Yeah, that looks super towny.

[Tails]

Also Cheek, if my predecessor was trying to crumb something, why do you think I would tell you what it was?

Who said I was asking you?

What makes you think anyone else would know? And do you really think it's a good idea to try to figure out someone else's crumbed role in thread? I mean, you're either scum or pants on head stupid.

[Tails]

We all need to start talking under the impression that those reading our posts are five year olds.

[Tails]

If you think there's something important for me to see, quote it. Otherwise, I'll just go on what I see from the few ISOs I look through and what happened from the point I replaced in. I'm not reading over 100 pages. I don't have that sort of time and patience.

P-edit: I'm pretty sure scum Chickadee would just claim a definitive flavor. No one can say otherwise, and if she fake claims on other scum, they're not going to say anything.

[Tails]

P-edit: I'm pretty sure scum Chickadee would just claim a definitive flavor. No one can say otherwise, and if she fake claims on other scum, they're not going to say anything.

have you read your role PM, Tails?

Yes.

P-edit: I'm pretty sure scum Chickadee would just claim a definitive flavor. No one can say otherwise, and if she fake claims on other scum, they're not going to say anything.

have you read your role PM, Tails?

actually need to be more specific. why would scum Chick claim a definitive flavour when that in itself is highly suspicious?

Because I couldn't confirm one way or the other, and myself and others would think she was town.

Especially me. Definitely me. She's town. I'm grabbing the laurel wreath and downing the wine.

[Tails]

I'm good with her living today. I can assess her alignment later in real time.

[Tails]

J100

@Jinglebells: Is this techy talk a new thing with you?

Also not sure how you missed the "You'd be lying to yourself" comment when going over BJ. I literally stopped when reading your ISO and said "Say what now?".

[Tails]

Also, highly recommended to not read my ISO because it's long and fluffy. Go ahead if you want some laughs and a better read on me tho.

I got partway through your ISO and then decided I didn't really need to read it, no matter how entertaining it was. Anything I need to get about your alignment I can get from just real time interactions.

[Tails]

Who am I the counter to?

[Tails]

Also tails, how well do you claim to know me? I'm assuming alt, but level of expertise and era of said expertise would be helpful.

We played in a lot of games a few years ago, but I'm sure play can change in that time. I don't remember you being this technical when it came to analyzing the game. As for dates, I'd have to look through my games, and that'd require more effort than I want to put in.

If you really want to, you could just meta dive this alt. It's been outed since the first game. But be cool about it. The whole point of me playing on this account was so that I could be more relaxed and not have to effort so much.

[Tails]

So if Cheeky is to be believed, I should vote the crap out of McMenno.

[Tails]

Shh... I'm retired.

And I'm trying not to effort.

But seriously, regardless of alignment, you should understand why I'm super skeptical about a mason claim here. I'll follow up on all this eventually, after I go through all those posts of yours.

[Tails]

But yeah, a lot of what looked like privileged information coming from your slot made me throw the flag down on the play.

[Tails]

Now I want to steal Thor's hammer...

[Tails]

I've been doing spec in my head btw. I figure at some point in the near future, I'll finish whatever rereads I want to do and just let loose.

[Tails]

Hey Jingle! Remember Ikaruga?

[Tails]

I've been wondering if this game has something similar going on. There's something off about one of the claims, but I don't think it's important to go too far into today. 2 teams + vig for sure. Possibly SK if my fears are right.

[Tails]

My asking about the title of the game wasn't fluff.

[Tails]

[Tails]

@Jangles: Didn't catch that wincon distinction. Changes my spec up a bit.

These recent posts by Jaber are poo.

[Tails]

No. They're poo regardless of our alignments. The way you just joined the wagon was poo.

"Oh hey! Let me just move off this McMenno wagon that I've been thinking is scum and join this new hotness. Based on stretching a weird post into something significant in an effort to hide how flimsy the wagon is."

Unless you were on McMenno because of pokemon demons, the jump here is super sketch.

[Tails]

[Tails]

I should make a hammer list.

[Tails]

[Tails]

Jingle, do you still want BJ dead? Or was that a first half of an ISO thing?

[Tails]

Because Reading Rainbow is just wrong. Jingle is a coin toss. Cheeky is scum or town that thinks going "gotcha" is scumhunting. Flickr seems easily influenced. Yours was the first actual opportunistic vote. You saw the shiny and went for it.

And you never showed any indication that you thought I was scum before. And we had a whole conversation about how Rowdy Racoon looked town.

P-edit: You seem to have no problem jumping on the train that says I'm scum for random gibberish in a first post. I mean, I show up at every party asking if anyone's seen my pants, but I doubt anyone thinks my twin tail exhibitionism is how I secretly win at Chinese Checkers.

[Tails]

Friday's are interesting in Knothole

[Tails]

I want BJ to explain this odds thing to me. I understand Chicky and me going back down to similar odds as McMenno. What I don't understand is how that makes me a stronger scum read than the guy he's been sitting on all day. Either his McMenno case is just as flimsy, or he has a BS in math.

[Tails]

Crap. I should have said "wild". Friday's are wild.

[Tails]

What? I've never said "gotcha."

Right. My bad. You just thought I was the candy cane murderer because I was singing Lollipop while licking a Dum Dum.

I might be under the illusion that scumhunting is finding scum in several different ways. It will be interesting to know the one right way.

Normally it involves figuring out motivation, intent, thought process, and whether they're a Sagittarius. That last part isn't necessary. I'm just curious.

[Tails]

Asking "Hey, do you know what your predecessor was crumbing?" isn't scum hunting. Asking what my alignment is isn't scumhunting. They're non-questions. They're either going to get a predictable or cheeky answer. If you're collecting answers that go with your name, good for you! If not, then you'll be disappointed when you get a "No" and "Town" respectably.

And going "aha!" at weird nonsense people say isn't going to get you anywhere. All you did was lynch someone because they were trying to be funny or weird or that one guy you avoid on the subway and failed in the delivery. Sometimes you nail scum, but then you play another game with the same player, who does the same thing, and this time they turn up town. Then you realize in your cold lonely heart that you killed a person for being themselves, and now you have no one to snuggle.

[Tails]

[Tails]

Spoiler:

[Tails]

[Tails]

I'm not focusing too much on figuring out who is who in the crew. I don't think it's as important as just figuring out which of us are a part of the crew. I'll probably help a little with figuring out how roles indicate alignment based on flavor, but I'd rather keep mum about some of the other details of how I got to A, B, or C. Figuring out the setup is probably going to be most of spec focus. The rest will just be normal scumhunting.

[Tails]

Vote JabJabs

Choo Choo!

[Tails]

I would say that was a reaction test, but I glazed over the rule set apparently.

VOTE: BuJaber

[Tails]

Jingle, you know you want this.

P-edit: Please shut up about River.

[Tails]

Apparently everyone has a River soft claim, including my hamster. And he can't figure out how to make a wheel work. I'm not putting a lot of stock into that.

[Tails]

I'd rather keep that on a need to know basis. Last time that got out in a game, I was night killed.

[Tails]

I'm trying to redo my head math now that I know Reavers aren't a possible scum team.

[Tails]

Does 5 3p sound right to you? Sounds too much to me.

[Tails]

Reavers as a faction don't make sense as winning with any other scum faction, like the Alliance. They're reavers. They kill everything. Maybe if we accept that the mod messed up the wincon statement in the OP, but otherwise, I don't see anything else really making sense here as an opposing faction. Especially since I think the mod is going for known characters, given the emphasis on restricting flavor names.

I also don't think The Operative is in the game, unless you think Alliance has a second traitor.

[Tails]

What point of not reading over 100 pages didn't you get? I'm just going with your play so far surrounding my wagon.

Nice guilt trip, though. I think you just made my mother jealous.

P-edit: No

[Tails]

Spoiler:

Who’s that person in the middle

Zoe.

[Tails]

So we are lynching tails.. right?

Part of me says no. But another part of me wants to go sip mimosas in the dead thread and have the mod explain to me his definition of a "fresh slot".

[Tails]

I'm fascinated about how long the McMenno counter is working compared to the Tails wagon. Something is strange there.

I thought so too. You can try getting the momentum back on that wagon if you like (not likely, given the replacement), or try voting JabJabs with me. Or you can vote me because you don't like trolly foxes and we can never be friends. I'll cry, but I'll get over it. Whatever you do, get off Nancy. That wagon ain't happening.

[Tails]

@Jingle Bell Rock: Finished your ISO before I left yesterday. I've decided your tech talk is more playstyle, and I just wasn't used to that from you. And the neutral discussion parts that I found off are accounted for based off of the unique game mechanics. And when it comes to spec, that is a huge weakness of mine. I can help figure out role balance or sometimes flavor, but I can't account for how certain mechanics work with how the game runs or should be played. Still don't like that you made a big deal about pointing out HoB first, though, especially since masons would be a go to fake claim for a 2-man team. So not going to trust you anytime soon. Should HoB flip, that would change, but now's not the time to blindly trust your claim.

[Tails]

I'm fascinated about how long the McMenno counter is working compared to the Tails wagon. Something is strange there.

I thought so too. You can try getting the momentum back on that wagon if you like (not likely, given the replacement), or try voting JabJabs with me. Or you can vote me because you don't like trolly foxes and we can never be friends. I'll cry, but I'll get over it. Whatever you do, get off Nancy. That wagon ain't happening.

I don't think you understand what Thor is saying, or maybe I'm not understanding. I think he's saying he's fascinated by how persistent the menno wagon is, IN SPITE of these other wagons that are popping up.

I mean, either way, he thinks there's something strange going on there. I agree, but probably for different reasons. The point of my post still stands, which is that he needs to stop wasting time on a wagon that isn't happening and put his vote somewhere useful. Even if that means he votes me. Now can you stop staring at individual trees in my posts and actually pay attention to what I'm saying?

Tails, given that the slot had barely any posts, how am I supposed to view your (if I give you the benefit of the doubt) tongue-in-cheek complaint about the "fresh"ness of the slot?

Somewhat tongue-in-cheek. The mod actually did tell me that I would essentially be replacing into a fresh slot since no game related posts had been made by Nico. So I actually find this whole push on me absurd, especially since you seem to have just now decided to push this slot based on what was said by my predecessor

at the very beginning of the game

. But what do I know? I made it clear I wasn't reading 100 pages. Maybe you were actually pushing the lurker slot the entire time. If not, the question of "what changed?" really needs to be addressed, because I suspect what really changed is that my utter disregard for reading useless information and this persona are what's really irking you.

And again, you missed the entirety of what I was saying. On one hand, I'd like to continue playing this game and put up a fight, but on the other, I really don't want to put up that much of an effort when the whole point was relax and enjoy myself. So if you want to mislynch me because you don't like me, that's your loss.

[Tails]

People who are viewing the posts of others as "scumplaining", what differentiates the posts Tail has made from those that you've marked as suspect?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say the quantity and point of view. Jabs made a concentrated effort to play a manipulation game to make those voting or suspecting him feel bad, and he spent the vast majority of his posts doing this since I pointed out how bad is vote on me was.

Meanwhile, I've made, what, one post off-handly complaining that this slot suddenly had baggage? And even that was in and among a number of posts featuring game relevant content, like pointing out Jabs's manipulation, telling Thor to actually put his vote somewhere useful, saying I was undecided how to approach this whole situation, and finally, giving my full thoughts on Jingle after having finished his ISO (probably something else that ticked you guys off. Mason claims are so sacred. I should probably start claiming them as scum more often to get this type of god cred.). But I bet you didn't read or really get what I was saying with that last bit.

[Tails]

Whence comes the idea of "like" or "dislike"? In the rare circumstance you can find someone we actually dislike (a difficult enough task), you would be tremendously hard pressed to find us leveraging that in a game. It's a freaking game. A game in which whether or not I like someone has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the solution.

I've played with you before. I know you can be influenced into thinking someone is scum because they irked you on some level. We all are, even if we try to minimize the bias. And I'm pretty sure that's what happening here. I guarantee if I was not playing on this account, you would not be going down this road.

[Tails]

Jingle and anyone else who knows the show well.. you agree with RR's interpretation of the videos?

I'm not sure what to make of those videos, and I'm the subject. The trailer is more vague, and is not focused on Simon and River per se. At best, I'd say the crew in general. Second clip is more Simon/River, but that's the thing about vi- um, results. At most I'd say crew. But that's probably influenced by the fact I know I'm town.

P-edit: A lurker lynch is a lurker lynch. Call it for what it is and don't try to dress it up. The problem now is that the lurker is gone from the slot and now you've decided to go for the lynch and are using RVS shenanigans as an excuse. This isn't my first rodeo, Chara, and I've gotten really good at analysing my own wagons for scum.

[Tails]

Regardless of whether I die today, Cheeky needs to be looked at closer. She's being very blatant with the fishing.

[Tails]

And that's not even counting the useless questions that she uses instead of scumhunting. And if you don't know what that is, that's any question that would be answered the same regardless of role or alignment. They're questions that add nothing to the game, but makes it look like you're contributing. They're also sometimes used to get easy wagons if the recipient goes off script and gets snarky.

P-edit: What was scummy about my entrance? Because I'm guessing you don't like snark.

[Tails]

1.)Should first posts be taken seriously or at face value? Yes/No
2.)Why would Nico blatantly crumb a scum role that would be heavily suspected to be in this game? Is she just that bad? If so, did anyone do any meta on her and see if she normally does this and if this has any bearing on this game? (I'm going to guess no on this last one, but I'm willing to be surprised.)
3.)If Nico actually crumbed scum, why was I informed by the mod that the slot had made zero game related posts? (You can choose to believe this or not, or ignore this or not, but my point is to show how ridiculous this reasoning is. I personally feel like I fell into a Monty Python sketch. I literally have to argue against ludicrousy.)

P-edit:

[Tails]

@Chara: You never answered the question on what you didn't like about my entrance. You can accuse me of deflecting all you want, but that doesn't work if you don't actually answer what I asked.

[Tails]

Cheeky:

What do these 2 questions add to the game:
1.) What's your alignment?
2.) What was your predecessor crumbing?

[Tails]

We can play 20 questions all you want. But stop acting insulted when I show how useless you're actually being. And if you're not actually scumhunting, then there's reason to believe you might not be town.

[Tails]

I don't care how many posts you have! Posting a lot does not make you town. Just like posting less does not make you scum. Activity is not alignment indicative.

And since you won't answer a basic question, how about I help you:

1.)What's your alignment?
Regardless of their actual alignment, your subject will always answer "Town". Unless they're being snarky or just avoid answering altogether. Asking this actually doesn't accomplish anything.

2.)What was your predecessor crumbing?
Assuming that I read my predecessor (I didn't and made clear I was not reading a lot of the back log of this game.), why would I answer? If I don't have a PR, I'll be confused and answer "I don't know." And if I have a PR, then I'm still going to answer "I don't know.", because I'm not going to tell you my role genius! At best, this gives you something you can try to use to look like a scum tell, but regardless of alignment or role, you are not going to get a "Yes" answer from this question.

[Tails]

Chara, read my posts. I've spent several giving reasons why I'm wary about Jingle, and then one just a couple page back with my most recent conclusions. I've given several town reads, of varying strength, and when my wagon started, I stated who was likely town or scum and why.

[Tails]

If it's an obvious point that needed to be proven, then why did no one call her out or act like she somehow gave them gold by getting the answer everyone expected?

[Tails]

*didn't need to be proven

[Tails]

Like people are getting mad because I'm daring to add pressure, i.e. playing the game and trying to find scum. Then they turn around and accuse me of scumhunting while patting those I'm pressuring on the back.

[Tails]

*not scumhunting

[Tails]

Chara:

Because Reading Rainbow is just wrong. Jingle is a coin toss. Cheeky is scum or town that thinks going "gotcha" is scumhunting. Flickr seems easily influenced. Yours was the first actual opportunistic vote. You saw the shiny and went for it.

And you never showed any indication that you thought I was scum before. And we had a whole conversation about how Rowdy Racoon looked town.

P-edit: You seem to have no problem jumping on the train that says I'm scum for random gibberish in a first post. I mean, I show up at every party asking if anyone's seen my pants, but I doubt anyone thinks my twin tail exhibitionism is how I secretly win at Chinese Checkers.

So translated:
RR - town
Jingle - Won't know until a HoB flip. Don't trust the Mason claim like everyone else, but I have no interest in trying to lynch him. I've given more detailed thoughts on my wariness 2 pages back.
Cheeky - Been upgraded to most likely scum. Could still be dumb town, but I'm getting fed up, and we'll probably find the math works out in favor of her being scum.
Flickr - I think I had them as likely town due to their claim. But I saw that as a sheep vote
BJ - opportunistic vote. Scum

Since then:
Chara - Null. Can probably be figured out by VCA later.
Mala - I believe the lyncher claim. She's absolutely going to be on the strongest wagon, no matter what.
Elsa- Definitely 3p. Not sold on Doctor. Can't get the flavor to work in my head. Ascetic + BP would work well for a SK, but Jingle doesn't think that's possible.

Off the wagon:
Nancy - Strong Town
Chickadee - Likely town. May be biased, but I think I figured some things out about the role, and if I'm right, she's town.
Thor - Don't care. Will figure out later.
Toog/Ari - Could lynch both, but have no strong feelings either way
Ehos - I seemed to be a counter wagon to McMenno, so could be scum. Other than that, no clue.

[Tails]

Drixx, if you want me to take this absurdity seriously, then at least addressing the list at the top of the page would go a long way. It'd be nice to see you've done your homework.

[Tails]

@Thor - why not Menno thouhh? Also it was really only 4 of us max.. the same 4 people who think menno is scum are flip flopping between him and other wagons.

Why not? Because of the reasons I listed.

Can you quote those again, just in case I missed them?

1.)What's your alignment?
Regardless of their actual alignment, your subject will always answer "Town". Unless they're being snarky or just avoid answering altogether. Asking this actually doesn't accomplish anything.

2.)What was your predecessor crumbing?
Assuming that I read my predecessor (I didn't and made clear I was not reading a lot of the back log of this game.), why would I answer? If I don't have a PR, I'll be confused and answer "I don't know." And if I have a PR, then I'm still going to answer "I don't know.", because I'm not going to tell you my role genius! At best, this gives you something you can try to use to look like a scum tell, but regardless of alignment or role, you are not going to get a "Yes" answer from this question.

1. I'll agree that asking someone's alignment is not super helpful - at the same stage, if you've played more than two games here on site you also have to be blatantly aware that this empty question is asked often, and is often asked by town. So I don't get the point in bothering to even talk about it, because as far as I've ever been able to tell asking it is NAI. Yeah?

2. This isn't a particularly valid rebuttal. Your slot is under a lot of stress even with a theory Cop clear arguing in your defense. It is under this stress, to a large part, because of how that '2' stuff went down. As a player, if you are town, it should be relatively simple to try to assess if that was a crumb and the reasoning for it with your role, and it's hardly a shock that you are looking like a likely lynch and should be getting emotionally ready to reveal your role if not already doing so.

1.) Cheeky's been here long enough to know the same thing and to know that the answer will either be "town" or tongue-in-cheek and is also NAI. I gave a tongue-in-cheek answer and Cheeky flipped out.
2.)But my point still stands that regardless, my answer would have to be the same. Either I know or don't. I have a role that could be crumbed or I don't. And even if I did, my answer couldn't be anything other than "No clue" or "I don't know". Because no one in their right mind is going to admit to having a PR before they have to. Outside of that, I can't give any insight to my predecessor's state of mind or why they said something at the very beginning of the game or whether that was game important information. I'm essentially swimming up a waterfall, and I find the whole situation absurd. Therefore my only recourse is to point out how absurd this whole situation really is, because this wouldn't happen in any other game, and it just feels like picking on the newbie lurker and then I get stuck with the transfer after I ruffle some feathers.

And yes, I've been accepting the foregone conclusion that I'll have to claim. But I'd rather not all things considered. So I'll continue to try to convince the men in sill hats why rowing up a waterfall is a silly idea.

Why are you dogging so hard on Cheeky for asking 1. A NAI question and 2. A very valid question?

Because other than role fish, that's all I've really seen her do. And when I start hard pressuring her on it, she crumbles. So I'm in a situation where if I make observations and don't hard push someone, I'm not scum hunting. But if I start asking a lot of pertinent questions and hard pushing, I'm a meanie and deserve to die. I'm essentially in a lose/lose situation here.

Hell, pretty sure I asked #2 as well - don't recall you crawling up my leg about it.

I don't recall you asking that while I've been here. Feel free to quote.

[Tails]

And on the off chance he is town somehow happy to keep giving himself the excuse of not reading, this gives me a chance to learn more about how he thinks.

Trolly account modeled after a certain brand of players.
Want to relax and not try hard
Not reading over 100 pages just to understand what's happening now. No one's got time for that.
I retired for a reason.
If I can't figure out alignment from point of replacement on, reading probably wouldn't help. Fresh reads shrug off unnecessary baggage.

[Tails]

Replacements refusing to read is not uncommon. So anyone who seriously thinks I'm scum for it will learn very quickly that it's NAI. You can dislike it, but that sounds like a personal problem. With games getting increasingly longer, asking a replacement to devote their time to just reading over 100 pages instead of engaging is both unrealistic and unfair.

[Tails]

i don't believe Thor read on replace in either, but the difference is he didn't keep bringing it up as an excuse for why he didn't understand a stance.

That's why I ask for quotes or for someone to explain their stance. Speaking of, you still haven't explained what about my entrance you didn't like or thought was scummy.

[Tails]

Tails your rebuttal also talks about your own answers to those questions (as though they matter, when they don't really), but they don't address Thor's point at all. that point being: it doesn't matter and you don't have a case for Cheeky asking pointless questions from these two questions. you keep veering off of the point into "i'm being attacked for trolly answers/snark" and it really is interesting to see that you still want to be townread for that.

I addressed the points well enough and said exactly why I was being so hard on Cheeky. She hadn't done anything else, and when I pressured her on it, she completely collapsed and refused to engage. You seem to essentially be saying that I shouldn't engage at all, but then that I'm scummy for somehow not engaging. You're cherry picking my posts to make it seem as if I'm not trying to move past a static point, and therefore you keep the focus in the exact same place.

[Tails]

Oh also forgot to address that last part and say that I haven't been saying I should be town read for my entrance or play style. But I'm trying to figure out why people are so quick to scum read me outside of the Robin post (which I can't control or argue against).

[Tails]

i don't believe you've actually argued for yourself being town anywhere. and i'm referring to arguing about why your own play is town.

Because I know I'm town, and I don't have to prove it to you. What I will do is counter cases on me about why I'm scum, because that's how you actually play the game. The problem is that the scum cases so far fall to Nico's first post, which I can't say anything more on, or something nebulous about my play, which I then can't get people to explain.
So yeah, I'm pretty frustrated. Doesn't mean I won't stop trying.

[Tails]

The 2 thing is really weird and really seems like a HoB crumb, yeah?

I agree it's weird, but I really want someone to explain why Nico would crumb scum and then do jack all to follow up on that play.

[Tails]

1.)Should first posts be taken seriously or at face value? Yes/No
2.)Why would Nico blatantly crumb a scum role that would be heavily suspected to be in this game? Is she just that bad? If so, did anyone do any meta on her and see if she normally does this and if this has any bearing on this game? (I'm going to guess no on this last one, but I'm willing to be surprised.)
3.)If Nico actually crumbed scum, why was I informed by the mod that the slot had made zero game related posts? (You can choose to believe this or not, or ignore this or not, but my point is to show how ridiculous this reasoning is. I personally feel like I fell into a Monty Python sketch. I literally have to argue against ludicrousy.)

P-edit:

We can play 20 questions all you want. But stop acting insulted when I show how useless you're actually being. And if you're not actually scumhunting, then there's reason to believe you might not be town.

I'm NOT FUCKING ACTING YOU PIECE OF SHIT. YOU CAN'T JUDGE ME AS USELESS UNLESS YOUVE ACTUALLY READ ALL OF MY POSTS SO ACTUALLY GO FUCK YOURSELF.

That escalated quickly

I know. And it bothers me that no one else sees the sudden escalation and how problematic it is.

[Tails]

@Tails what is your knowledge of the flavor?

Watched the show and movie multiple times. Have the first two graphic novels. So pretty good.

[Tails]

McMenno was the starter of BuJaber and was Stargazer also, I kinda thought he was town. What's the case there for people?
Looking at the lynch;
TPFKAP (9): Thor665, Gamma Emerald, Elsa Jay, CheekyTeeky, BuJaber, Jingle, Nancy Drew Shogunate, Chara, Toogeloo
I'm town, Elsa is not a lynch nor likely groupscum, I think Cheeky is town, I think Toog is town.

I think we should lynch one of Gamma,BuJaber,Nancy Drew,Chara

*snip*

I'm not sure why you're advocating lynching off wagon. From your pov, the following are town: you, Gamma, Jingle, Toog. Elsa is 3p, and therefore not included based off current information. If you agree with Thor, than Cheeky is off the list. If you think Thor is town, that's another name. Leaving you with a 50/50 shot between Nancy and Chara if you think 1 group scum on the wagon. So...why do you want to lynch elsewhere?

[Tails]

@RR: I'm pretty sure Nico checked out of the game early on.

[Tails]

As discussed earlier - it is known that the Traitor did not know his partners. It is not known that the partners did not know the Traitor/did not know there was a Traitor; therefore they crumbed in order to allow the Traitor to aid them/crumb back and identify himself.

My issue with this theory is that Nico did not follow up on this after her introduction. At least some indication, however slight, that would show that she'd be looking for a traitor. But she essentially grudge voted RR then prod dodged until finally flaking. If she was crumbing, I'd still expect at least a bit more effort.

With an awareness of your and his role PM - are you claiming the 2 thing is absolutely not a crumb?

I have no idea what that is.

[Tails]

Why would you expect more effort from a slot I presume you are arguing honest flaked 100%?

I'm trying to understand the rationale of somebody that looks at an opening post and declares it a crumb, without anything else backing it up. I absolutely know that Nico just flaked. And I just see everything else as inconsequential fluff that only she knew the answer to. Her vote seems to be connected to her having a grudge against RR. Everything else was either prod dodging or written on page 1. And I usually ignore things written on page 1.

That's not the question I asked you - I asked a yes/no question of 'is that 2 thing absolutely not a crumb?'

Not as far as I know. I've turned it over every which way in my head, but I can't see how Nico's post is connected with my role.
If you need your one word answer though, "No".

[Tails]

That's still assuming only 1 scum on the wagon, though. But sure, let me drag out the last VC.

[Tails]

Before I do, your reads on Cheeky and Thor?

[Tails]

VC#0

TPFKAP (9): Thor665, Gamma Emerald, Elsa Jay, CheekyTeeky, BuJaber, Jingle, Nancy Drew Shogunate, Chara, Toogeloo

BuJaber (2): McMenno, Chickadee
Flicker (2): Reasonably Rational, northsidegal
NicoRobin (2): Malakittens TPFKAP
Reasonably Rational (1): NicoRobin


Not Voting: Flicker

Deadline suspended

So {Ethos, Chickadee, RR, Ari, Mala, me}
Remove Mala, since lyncher
Assuming you only think 1 scum on wagon, and 4-5 scum combined (3/3, not including TPF), then that's 3-4 scum off?
Depending if you have any strong town reads, you're probably right. But again, that's assuming only 1 scum on TPF wagon. And a 50/50 shot is not something to sneeze at.

[Tails]

I think we really need to know your strong town reads among {Thor, Cheeky Ethos, Chickadee, RR, Ari, me} before going much further.

[Tails]

Also should probably know your assumptions for number of scum left and amount of scum off and on wagon.

[Tails]

I forgot Flickr.

@Jabs: Do you believe Flickr's claim enough to either think town or not on table?

[Tails]

VC#0

TPFKAP (9): Thor665, Gamma Emerald, Elsa Jay, CheekyTeeky, BuJaber, Jingle, Nancy Drew Shogunate, Chara, Toogeloo

BuJaber (2): McMenno, Chickadee
Flicker (2): Reasonably Rational, northsidegal
NicoRobin (2): Malakittens TPFKAP
Reasonably Rational (1): NicoRobin


Not Voting: Flicker

Deadline suspended

So only excluding claims you believe, strong town reads, and 3p, you're left with the following:

On wagon - {Cheeky, Nancy, Chara}
Off wagon - {Esper, RR, Ari, me}

With assumption of 3-3, that's 5 scum aside from TPF. One among {Cheeky, Nancy, Chara} and all of {Esper, RR, Ari, me} with no room for error. That no room for error should really be scaring you, unless you think you're a scumhunting god (never assume that). So that alone should make you nervous and make you reevaluate your reads. Also, I'm not sure why you're only thinking 1 scum on the traitor wagon. Without knowing that TPF was the traitor (and I haven't looked back at the flip to see if there's indication that he was known), 1 scum on the wagon seems really weird. 2 would be a more normal assumption, but that's just me. Personally, I think PoE should be stronger on the wagon, based on your thought process. But again, slightly too close. VCA only gets better as time goes on, so there's a lot of assumptions being made here, and you're basing your math off that.

Also, what bothers me is that if you really thought that distribution was correct, and that there's a 100% chance I'm scum, then what was with that whole "I want him to live, that way I can learn to read him" thing? Thor's right. Unless you think we're going to be playing a lot of games together, and you just want more info for those games, there's no reason to prioritize that thought process. Heck, there's not even much reason to do so regardless, because you should be all gung-ho on the "Tails scum" train. There should be no reason to appeal to me. Heck, you should have been assuming an equal chance of McMenno/me, so jumping off because of "better odds" is strange from a reasoning perspective.

[Tails]

That's nice, but it had nothing to do with this:

Also, what bothers me is that if you really thought that distribution was correct, and that there's a 100% chance I'm scum, then what was with that whole "I want him to live, that way I can learn to read him" thing? Thor's right. Unless you think we're going to be playing a lot of games together, and you just want more info for those games, there's no reason to prioritize that thought process. Heck, there's not even much reason to do so regardless, because you should be all gung-ho on the "Tails scum" train. There should be no reason to appeal to me.

It's the wanting to keep me alive to learn to read me and the appealing to me thing that I find off. If I was 100% scum in your eyes, that shouldn't even be on your mind.

[Tails]

@Thor: I don't think Nancy is happening. Who's your second choice?

[Tails]

I'm not going to be as active during the weekend. I'll try to keep up, but can't promise how much I'll post.

[Tails]

Tails - You don't get to say that Nico "just flaked". Nico literally crossed into game throwing territory in another game (again; now complete) with the claim of not enough time to play. Suicided out of that game by desperado shooting me. But

intentionally

remained in this game, despite this game being a much heavier load and more time consuming.

What motive explains that?

I understand why you both ignored this the first time around and

then

tried to drop bullshit into the game to get people to believe that Nico just "flaked" but ... that doesn't hold up to any kind of scrutiny.

~D

You guys didn't replace in. Nico didn't replace out upon seeing you enter sign-ups. So it appears she was set on playing the game with you guys in it. You both admitted in the queue that you were carrying grudges against each other. She voted you first chance she got. And now you're carrying a vendetta against her slot. From what it sounds like, your last game together was very different as far as circumstances go, where she had the ability to both act on her grudge and take both of you out of the game. You're assuming the same sort of utility was available to her here. It was not. You're assuming that she would have replaced out sooner instead of prod dodging and flaking, because she acted earlier in your other game. But she didn't /out when she saw you sign up, so what makes you really think that she'd replace out immediately as either alignment here? The fact remains that there's evidence suggesting she really wanted to play this game and then couldn't for whatever reason. I have further evidence that suggests to me that she just flaked out and never came back. That's not me speculating. That's me knowing. If you have a grudge against Nico, fine. Work that out on your own time. But leave me out of it. Otherwise, this whole endeavor is just really dishonest.

[Tails]

I am very okay with an Ari lynch, btw.

[Tails]

1.) RR brings up past game where Nico suicided and game threw because of grudge.
2.) RR then says they'd expect Nico to do the same thing here as town (Nevermind the how) or replace out earlier
3.) RR ignores that Nico not avoiding the game when they signed up or replacing out beforehand or early on points to Nico actually wanting to play in the game. This is regardless of alignment.

The logic does not flow here. Especially when RR brings up Nico wanting them to play in another game with her at the start of this game's d1, pointing to no grudge or wanting to avoid them. But then they use the grudge thing here as proof of alignment? If Nico did not want to play with you as town here, why would she even invite you to play in another game where you could both be town?

And that's regardless of the fact that ALIGNMENT IS NAI!

[Tails]

Given the context, I obviously meant activity. But sure. Go on spinning your little wheels there. And you try to crap on me and say that I'm making crap up, but you're the one that brought up Nico's vendetta against you, you brought it up again as something she declared "at the start of the game", and you're making it supporting evidence in your case. You can call that kettle whatever you want, but you are coming off as incredibly sore about Nico's play from other games, and you've become emotionally attached to the wagon because of that. For someone that told

me

to take a step back earlier, you're refusing to do the same thing here. Have you thought that perhaps Nico stuck around because she liked the flavor of the game more? Or maybe the mod? Or maybe one of many other little things? I can't profess to know her actual thought process, but I know enough about my role and Nico's actions surrounding the role to know that she just wasn't here.

At this point, I don't expect you to get out of your little tunnel. You're spiraling and emotional, and I'm sure if I didn't point out the problem with the activity tell and your thought process there, someone else would have. You're ignoring points other players are bringing up. You're essentially ignoring anything I say or twisting it to fit your perception of the game. I'm really not going to bother from now on, but I thought it worth a shot, so that maybe, just maybe, you could step back for just a second and live up to your user name.

[Tails]

One point of interest is that Tails did attempt to read Jingle's ISO and then kind of stopped there. I don't think anyone expected him to read the game in it's entirety but reading the ISOs of the leading wagons/players they are familiar with (like Jingle) makes sense.

I actually finished Jingle's ISO awhile ago and said as much in thread. I actually read through Chickadee's ISO, part of Elsa's, the mod's (mainly to look at the flip), and I started on Toog's, but then decided I didn't want to read anymore there. I also looked at Nico's ISO, but only after you asked me about a crumb and I had no idea what you were talking about.

Post about Jingle read and his ISO here:

@Jingle Bell Rock: Finished your ISO before I left yesterday. I've decided your tech talk is more playstyle, and I just wasn't used to that from you. And the neutral discussion parts that I found off are accounted for based off of the unique game mechanics. And when it comes to spec, that is a huge weakness of mine. I can help figure out role balance or sometimes flavor, but I can't account for how certain mechanics work with how the game runs or should be played. Still don't like that you made a big deal about pointing out HoB first, though, especially since masons would be a go to fake claim for a 2-man team. So not going to trust you anytime soon. Should HoB flip, that would change, but now's not the time to blindly trust your claim.

Where I essentially talked about my reads:

Chara:

Because Reading Rainbow is just wrong. Jingle is a coin toss. Cheeky is scum or town that thinks going "gotcha" is scumhunting. Flickr seems easily influenced. Yours was the first actual opportunistic vote. You saw the shiny and went for it.

And you never showed any indication that you thought I was scum before. And we had a whole conversation about how Rowdy Racoon looked town.

P-edit: You seem to have no problem jumping on the train that says I'm scum for random gibberish in a first post. I mean, I show up at every party asking if anyone's seen my pants, but I doubt anyone thinks my twin tail exhibitionism is how I secretly win at Chinese Checkers.

So translated:
RR - town
Jingle - Won't know until a HoB flip. Don't trust the Mason claim like everyone else, but I have no interest in trying to lynch him. I've given more detailed thoughts on my wariness 2 pages back.
Cheeky - Been upgraded to most likely scum. Could still be dumb town, but I'm getting fed up, and we'll probably find the math works out in favor of her being scum.
Flickr - I think I had them as likely town due to their claim. But I saw that as a sheep vote
BJ - opportunistic vote. Scum

Since then:
Chara - Null. Can probably be figured out by VCA later.
Mala - I believe the lyncher claim. She's absolutely going to be on the strongest wagon, no matter what.
Elsa- Definitely 3p. Not sold on Doctor. Can't get the flavor to work in my head. Ascetic + BP would work well for a SK, but Jingle doesn't think that's possible.

Off the wagon:
Nancy - Strong Town
Chickadee - Likely town. May be biased, but I think I figured some things out about the role, and if I'm right, she's town.
Thor - Don't care. Will figure out later.
Toog/Ari - Could lynch both, but have no strong feelings either way
Ehos - I seemed to be a counter wagon to McMenno, so could be scum. Other than that, no clue.

And I townread RR, but I'm trying to get them to step back and see how weak that read is. And that maybe, just maybe, there's a subconscious reason as well, because I wasn't the one that brought up how sore they were at Nico. I just connected the dots. I can do more homework on her sitewide activity, but it's not something I like to do and would rather just be poking somewhere else. And given there are others besides RR that want to make sure all focus stays solely on me, I guess this is what I'm doing.

[Tails]

Let's try this and see what happens.

VOTE: Aristophanes

[Tails]

@Cerb: Taking the step back was all I wanted. I've already addressed the other points, and one of the major points of contention was my saying that I know for absolute certainty that Nico flaked. And we can continue this whole back and forth thing, but we're getting close to the 24 hour mark, and it's becoming sillier and sillier for me to pretend I'm not a PR. And as far as game solving, I'm not sure what more you want me to do. I've hard pushed some of my stronger scumspects. The result: A complete shutdown from those being pushed, town walled off the conversations, and more votes for being mean. I took some time to talk with Jingle and figure out how the game might look. I've been trying to open up a line of dialogue with Thor to get him to move his vote off Nancy, who I townread, and move it somewhere useful. I poked and prodded at Jabs, talked out his math to the logical conclusion, and then pointed out why it was problematic and how it made no sense that he interacted with me or my wagon in the way he did. All of that gets shoved aside. Right now, I'm trying to consolidate votes. Several people said they were interested in Ari, and since I've become more and more convinced that slot is scum, I thought it was worth a shot to try to see if I could get a wagon going. Besides Cheeky, no one's bitten. It feels like I've been systematically isolated, and, try as I might, there's not much I can do to push past it. No one's asked or examined why the wagons feel this way or seem off. No one has asked me about my wagon preferences or why I'm voting (or not voting) in one location or the other. You have to admit, this is abnormal. There should be some resistance here, and there is none.

Anyway, I'd like those that expressed interest in an Ari lynch to either get on that wagon, explain why they'd not vote Ari, or to vote a wagon that has a chance of going through today. I'll claim in a few hours if I need to. But I'd rather not.

[Tails]

I'm a Bodyguard.

More votes on Ari please.

[Tails]

Nico didn't submit an action. That's how I know she flaked.

[Tails]

I did ask about how the interaction would work, though. And it gave me a bit of insight on how the mod views roles.

[Tails]

He did when I checked how a doc interaction would work. He seemed to misunderstand what I was asking.

And now that I don't have to sit on this information, answer this: Does your heal protect against 1 shot or multiple? This isn't fishing. I know the answer. I just want to check that you do.

[Tails]

I don't think you'd be satisfied regardless. I am what I am.

P-edit: Well, given that she wasn't targeted, she absolutely could be.

[Tails]

Yeah. Just read over that. He has an interesting view on doctors as well. That's why I asked Elsa. But regardless, Nico didn't act last night. I double checked with the mod when I saw something about a lightning rod when going through the ISOs (I think it was Chickadee's.).

[Tails]

No. Redacted - Role - Explanation - win when all threats against Serenity eliminated

[Tails]

I think some players have posted they have flavor. I just know I didn't.

[Tails]

Don't know what to tell you.

[Tails]

Elsa, answer my question.

[Tails]

Does your heal protect against 1 shot or multiple?

[Tails]

I asked about the doc because I wanted to know how it interacted with my role. A50 said something interesting, but I want to make sure that Elsa actually has that information. Like I said, asthetic and BP are weird choices for a doc, even if 3p.

p-edit: Yeah. A50 was very explicit about doctor variations and protecting against one attack a night. I was led to believe that if both me and a doc protected X, and X was shot twice, I'd die.

[Tails]

Also, wouldn't an ascetic that blocks a lightning rod full block them? I thought ascetic worked like a reflexive roleblocker.

[Tails]

Eh. After reading the wiki and the mod post, and knowing how the mod views things in terms of roles, it probably doesn't. That's probably something that can be double checked tomorrow.

[Tails]

There's too much wine down that rabbit hole. I don't want to go there atm. I might drown.

[Tails]

Well I'm not any of those, so I'm not going to claim them.

[Tails]

I don't really care who I'm supposed to be. I have guesses, but I wasn't putting that much importance on Chickadee's result. If everyone else does, they're more than welcome to.

[Tails]

Going to bed now. Vote Ari or consolidate elsewhere. Good night.

[Tails]

I protected Chickadee last night.

Also looked at VCs. Pretty sure RR is last HoB, but I think you guys need the visual evidence to understand why. One sec.

[Tails]

Spoiler: Some D2 VCs

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

NicoRobin (1):

Elsa Jay (2018),

McMenno (1):

CheekyTeeky (2024),

Not voting (14):

Thor665,

Toogeloo,

NicoRobin,

Chara,

Nancy Drew Shogunate,

Chickadee,

Flicker,

Jingle,

BuJaber,

McMenno,

Reasonably Rational,

Malakittens,

Gamma Emerald,

northsidegal,

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

NicoRobin (1):

Elsa Jay (2018),

McMenno (1):

CheekyTeeky (2024),

BuJaber (1):

Toogeloo (2049),

Not voting (13):

Thor665,

Jingle,

Chara,

Nancy Drew Shogunate,

Chickadee,

Flicker,

NicoRobin,

BuJaber,

McMenno,

Reasonably Rational,

Malakittens,

Gamma Emerald,

northsidegal,

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

McMenno (3):	CheekyTeeky (2024),	Elsa Jay (2079),	BuJaber (2082),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (2):	Thor665 (2092),	Flicker (2114),
BuJaber (1):	Toogeloo (2049),
Not voting (10):	Jingle,	NicoRobin,	Chara,	Nancy Drew Shogunate,	Chickadee,	McMenno,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Gamma Emerald,	northsidegal,

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

McMenno (3):	CheekyTeeky (2024),	Elsa Jay (2079),	BuJaber (2082),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (3):	Thor665 (2092),	Flicker (2114),	Toogeloo (2175),
Not voting (10):	Jingle,	NicoRobin,	Chara,	Chickadee,	McMenno,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Gamma Emerald,	northsidegal,	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2140),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Nancy Drew Shogunate (5):	Thor665 (2092),	Flicker (2114),	Toogeloo (2175),	McMenno (2197),	Elsa Jay (2199),
McMenno (2):	CheekyTeeky (2024),	BuJaber (2082),
Not voting (9):	Jingle,	NicoRobin,	Chara,	Chickadee,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Gamma Emerald,	northsidegal,	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2140),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Nancy Drew Shogunate (6):	Thor665 (2092),	Flicker (2114),	Toogeloo (2175),	McMenno (2197),	Elsa Jay (2199),	CheekyTeeky (2221),
McMenno (1):	BuJaber (2082),
northsidegal (1):	Jingle (2223),
Not voting (8):	NicoRobin,	Chara,	Chickadee,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Gamma Emerald,	northsidegal,	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2140),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Nancy Drew Shogunate (4):	Thor665 (2092),	Toogeloo (2175),	McMenno (2197),	Elsa Jay (2199),
McMenno (3):	BuJaber (2082),	CheekyTeeky (2272),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2273),
northsidegal (1):	Jingle (2223),
Not voting (8):	NicoRobin,	Chara,	Chickadee,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Gamma Emerald,	northsidegal,	Flicker (2268),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Nancy Drew Shogunate (4):	Thor665 (2092),	Toogeloo (2175),	McMenno (2197),	Elsa Jay (2199),
McMenno (3):	BuJaber (2082),	CheekyTeeky (2272),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2273),
Malakittens (2):	Chara (2395),	Flicker (2396),
Reasonably Rational (1):	Jingle (2349),
Not voting (6):	NicoRobin,	Chickadee,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Gamma Emerald,	northsidegal,

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Nancy Drew Shogunate (4):	Thor665 (2092),	Toogeloo (2175),	McMenno (2197),	Elsa Jay (2199),
McMenno (3):	BuJaber (2082),	CheekyTeeky (2272),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2273),
Malakittens (2):	Chara (2395),	Flicker (2396),
Not voting (7):	NicoRobin,	Chickadee,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Gamma Emerald,	northsidegal,	Jingle (2402),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Malakittens (4):	Chara (2395),	Flicker (2396),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2444),	Elsa Jay (2445),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (3):	Thor665 (2092),	Toogeloo (2175),	McMenno (2197),
McMenno (2):	BuJaber (2082),	CheekyTeeky (2272),
Not voting (7):	NicoRobin,	Chickadee,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Gamma Emerald,	northsidegal,	Jingle (2402),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Malakittens (6):	Chara (2395),	Flicker (2396),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2444),	Elsa Jay (2445),	Gamma Emerald (2482),	Chickadee (2517),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (3):	Thor665 (2092),	Toogeloo (2175),	McMenno (2197),
McMenno (2):	BuJaber (2082),	CheekyTeeky (2272),
Not voting (5):	NicoRobin,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	northsidegal,	Jingle (2402),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Malakittens (6):	Chara (2395),	Flicker (2396),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2444),	Elsa Jay (2445),	Gamma Emerald (2482),	Chickadee (2517),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (3):	Thor665 (2092),	Toogeloo (2175),	McMenno (2197),
McMenno (2):	BuJaber (2082),	CheekyTeeky (2272),
Not voting (5):	NicoRobin,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	northsidegal,	Jingle (2402),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Malakittens (7):	Chara (2395),	Flicker (2396),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2444),	Gamma Emerald (2482),	Chickadee (2517),	McMenno (2535),	Toogeloo (2539),
McMenno (1):	BuJaber (2082),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (1):	Thor665 (2092),
Aristophanes (1):	CheekyTeeky (2555),
Not voting (6):	NicoRobin,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Aristophanes,	Jingle (2402),	Elsa Jay (2547),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Malakittens (5):	Chara (2395),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2444),	Chickadee (2517),	McMenno (2535),	Toogeloo (2539),
McMenno (3):	BuJaber (2082),	CheekyTeeky (2609),	Flicker (2613),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (1):	Thor665 (2092),
Not voting (7):	NicoRobin,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Aristophanes,	Jingle (2402),	Elsa Jay (2547),	Gamma Emerald (2596),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Malakittens (4):	Chara (2395),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2444),	McMenno (2535),	Toogeloo (2539),
McMenno (3):	BuJaber (2082),	CheekyTeeky (2609),	Flicker (2613),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (1):	Thor665 (2092),
Not voting (8):	NicoRobin,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Aristophanes,	Jingle (2402),	Elsa Jay (2547),	Gamma Emerald (2596),	Chickadee (2662),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

McMenno (3):	BuJaber (2082),	CheekyTeeky (2609),	Flicker (2613),
Malakittens (2):	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2444),	McMenno (2535),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (1):	Thor665 (2092),
Gamma Emerald (1):	Chara (2710),
NicoRobin (1):	Toogeloo (2743),
Not voting (8):	NicoRobin,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Aristophanes,	Jingle (2402),	Elsa Jay (2547),	Gamma Emerald (2596),	Chickadee (2662),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Toogeloo (4):	Aristophanes (2761),	Elsa Jay (2765),	CheekyTeeky (2779),	Chickadee (2780),
Malakittens (2):	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2444),	McMenno (2535),
McMenno (2):	BuJaber (2082),	Flicker (2613),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (2):	Thor665 (2092),	Toogeloo (2774),
Gamma Emerald (1):	Chara (2710),
Not voting (5):	NicoRobin,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Jingle (2402),	Gamma Emerald (2596),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Toogeloo (5):	Aristophanes (2761),	Elsa Jay (2765),	CheekyTeeky (2779),	Chickadee (2780),	Gamma Emerald (2792),
Malakittens (2):	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2444),	McMenno (2535),
McMenno (2):	BuJaber (2082),	Flicker (2613),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (2):	Thor665 (2092),	Toogeloo (2774),
Gamma Emerald (1):	Chara (2710),
Not voting (4):	Tails,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Jingle (2402),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Toogeloo (4):	Aristophanes (2761),	Elsa Jay (2765),	Chickadee (2780),	Gamma Emerald (2792),
McMenno (3):	BuJaber (2082),	Flicker (2613),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2814),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (2):	Thor665 (2092),	Toogeloo (2774),
Malakittens (1):	McMenno (2535),
Gamma Emerald (1):	Chara (2710),
Tails (1):	CheekyTeeky (2829),
Not voting (4):	Tails,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Jingle (2402),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Toogeloo (4):	Aristophanes (2761),	Elsa Jay (2765),	Chickadee (2780),	Gamma Emerald (2792),
McMenno (4):	BuJaber (2082),	Flicker (2613),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2814),	CheekyTeeky (2867),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (1):	Thor665 (2092),
Malakittens (1):	McMenno (2535),
Gamma Emerald (1):	Chara (2710),
Chickadee (1):	Toogeloo (2872),
Not voting (4):	Tails,	Reasonably Rational,	Malakittens,	Jingle (2402),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

McMenno (6):	BuJaber (2082),	Flicker (2613),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2814),	CheekyTeeky (2867),	Chara (2905),	Jingle (2933),
Toogeloo (3):	Elsa Jay (2765),	Chickadee (2780),	Gamma Emerald (2792),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (1):	Thor665 (2092),
Chickadee (1):	Toogeloo (2872),
Aristophanes (1):	McMenno (2884),
Tails (1):	Reasonably Rational (2914),
Not voting (3):	Tails,	Malakittens,	Aristophanes (2912),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

Those are all the D2 VCs up until after I replaced in, so halfway through the day. Wagons go Nancy>Mala>Toog>McMenno. I entered in around the time things were shifting off of Toog, stating an intention to sheep. It's only after I entered and caused a ruckus that RR places their first vote and starts hard pushing my wagon. This was also when McMenno became the dominant wagon. And I looked back into D1 VCs, and they weren't hard pushing the slot like they said they were. Instead, they were on Flicker.

[Tails]

Who am I the counter to?

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

McMenno (6):	BuJaber (2082),	Flicker (2613),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2814),	CheekyTeeky (2867),	Chara (2905),	Jingle (2933),
Toogeloo (3):	Elsa Jay (2765),	Chickadee (2780),	Gamma Emerald (2792),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (1):	Thor665 (2092),
Chickadee (1):	Toogeloo (2872),
Aristophanes (1):	McMenno (2884),
Tails (1):	Reasonably Rational (2914),
Not voting (3):	Tails,	Malakittens,	Aristophanes (2912),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

votecount

With 16 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Tails (4):	Reasonably Rational (2914),	Jingle (2941),	CheekyTeeky (2946),	Flicker (2952),
Toogeloo (3):	Elsa Jay (2765),	Chickadee (2780),	Gamma Emerald (2792),
McMenno (3):	BuJaber (2082),	Nancy Drew Shogunate (2814),	Chara (2905),
Nancy Drew Shogunate (1):	Thor665 (2092),
Chickadee (1):	Toogeloo (2872),
Aristophanes (1):	McMenno (2884),
Not voting (3):	Tails,	Malakittens,	Aristophanes (2912),

(expired on 2018-10-29 22:00:00) remain.

McMenno apparently.

So if Cheeky is to be believed, I should vote the crap out of McMenno.

Full context of the quote Jingle pulled out. I recognized being a counter immediately. I just didn't feel threatened enough atm to do anything about it. Also, Cheeky pointing that out tells me he's not HoB with McMenno. Same with BuJabs movement from McMenno to me. That's not the actions of a partner. Wouldn't rule out other scum, but Chickadee result is making me think otherwise.

[Tails]

@Jingle: Stop being lazy. You're better than this. And you know that flavor breaks this game, and Chickadee is handing that to you on a silver platter.

[Tails]

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

Forgot to vote

[Tails]

It's more likely there was scum on your counterwagon.

It's also just as likely that there was scum on my wagon. I'm telling you what I think makes the most sense given the way things moved.

Also I'm not sure what the point of loading up all those VCs are as RR isn't voting in any of them until the last one.

That's kinda the point. I even gave a point of reference for what was happening when that vote was placed, noting that the McMenno wagon became the serious leading wagon at that precise moment and that RR started to work hard to disassemble it via hard pushing my wagon, one that he wasn't trying to push prior to that point.

[Tails]

Also, you know that saying there was probably scum on my counter kinda starts pointing to you, right?

[Tails]

At this point, Jabs, Flicker, and Jingle are essentially town via claims and results. So unless you're saying scum is Nancy or Chara...

[Tails]

I also want you to note RR's reaction to the Ari lynch as it was becoming more and more likely that Ari wouldn't shoot me and instead was looking more at a pool with Ethos in it.

[Tails]

It'd be nice to have a quick day.

This is a weird thought. Personally, quick days freak me out.

[Tails]

Might as well go over the other 2 posts Jingle quoted:

No. They're poo regardless of our alignments. The way you just joined the wagon was poo.

"Oh hey! Let me just move off this McMenno wagon that I've been thinking is scum and join this new hotness. Based on stretching a weird post into something significant in an effort to hide how flimsy the wagon is."

Unless you were on McMenno because of pokemon demons, the jump here is super sketch.

I want BJ to explain this odds thing to me. I understand Chicky and me going back down to similar odds as McMenno. What I don't understand is how that makes me a stronger scum read than the guy he's been sitting on all day. Either his McMenno case is just as flimsy, or he has a BS in math.

Those are less a defense of McMenno and more a scum case on BuJabs. I was pushing him on the way he moved onto me

from

McMenno. I spent a good portion of the next rl day pressuring him on why his thought process didn't make any sense, including doing some pseudo wagon analysis. A vote did follow all that, btw.

[Tails]

Not voting any of {Jingle, Gamma, BuJabs, Flicker, Chickadee} today.

[Tails]

So are you doubting Chickadee's results or are you just trying to get rid of some town to make things more interesting for yourself?

[Tails]

Jingle, if you really want to know whether we should trust Chickadee, then you lynch Chickadee or BuJabs for Mara's sake. My utility is to die at night. So if you're that concerned about figuring out the visions today, then that's how you solve the problem. Otherwise, leave it for tomorrow and force Chickadee to investigate known town.

[Tails]

Like, for someone who is all about town utility, you are going about things really dumbly.

[Tails]

Also, discussion about you 2 being possible scum should have stopped after the HoB flip.

[Tails]

You do get points for going after RR instead of RK, though.

RK's claim doesn't really make sense to me, but I don't think they're Menno's partner. So not really interested in there right now.

[Tails]

Nah, we could still theoretically be a part of the Niska crew if it's also groupscum. It's actually a slightly more likely play from my part to hard tie myself to a buddy in multiball if there's a third member of the crew I can set up to end game the town.

After a single Reaver flip, I'm not sure where I'm at as far as other group scum. Niska made sense as the lyncher, but I couldn't see a whole group centering on him. That could be the case, but I think I need to see a flip first. And sure, that could be true, but HoB felt more likely to me, especially with how you were specing and hunting yesterday. So I'm going with conf. town now that I've seen a HoB flip.

My problem was when I tried to put everything together in my head, I wasn't liking how my reads were lining up. I feel solid on the flavor reads, but not as strongly on everything else. So I'm doubting some of the quick town reads I gathered yesterday. And Chickadee's most recent result showed I was wrong on BuJabs, so I need to figure out how everything else lines up.

That being said, I have 6 town figured out, down to likely flavor. Find the last 2, and it's essentially over.

[Tails]

Also, going to say this to you again Jingle: Flavor breaks this game.

Now stop waffling and look at the freaking flavor and claims that you have.

[Tails]

Me

[Tails]

Outside of the enabler discussion, you're pretty much where I'm at.

[Tails]

Jingle and anyone else who knows the show well.. you agree with RR's interpretation of the videos?

I'm not sure what to make of those videos, and I'm the subject. The trailer is more vague, and is not focused on Simon and River per se. At best, I'd say the crew in general. Second clip is more Simon/River, but

that's the thing about vi-

um, results. At most I'd say crew. But that's probably influenced by the fact I know I'm town.

Oh, btw. Figured out Chickadee=River awhile ago.

[Tails]

If she's scum, she's playing a brilliant and dangerous game. Not interested in that, though. That can be figured out later.

Jingle, how much experience do you have with Nancy? This goes for just about anyone, tbh.

[Tails]

I've had Elsa pegged as a possible SK for awhile. Ascetic + BP has 3rd party scum written all over. And if she's another Reaver, that matches with Thor's Commuter ability.

[Tails]

That messes with my spec, though. Multiple Reavers or SKs?

[Tails]

I've played with Math before. They will oppose mass claim regardless of alignment. I'm just wondering how confident Nancy feels playing by herself as different alignments. How she claimed yesterday felt off, and then there was the immediate return to being a hydra after she started that dumpster fire. I'm just wondering if that might be indicative of alignment or null.

[Tails]

I think I've made my thoughts on the matter clear.

[Tails]

Spoiler: bah

[Tails]

I would also consider adding a rule in regards to how much of our role we are allowed to share.

Discussion about how roles were formatted played pretty predominantly during the game, so if you wanted to nip that in the bud, you could just simply add a rule that no discussion of role pms be allowed at all, and have the sample town role pm placed at the beginning, and that be the end of it.

Or have all town roles be formatted the same way to cut down on gaming the system. A sample town PM is provided in the OP as usual.

Like, if I was asked if the Doctor version I use is the standard (1 kill heal) or the variant.. I wouldn't know how to answer that w.o. either calling EJ a liar or lying to you myself.

Asking the mod clarifying questions, and then relaying those answers, should not be banned and punishable by a mod kill. If EJ didn't do the required homework before fake claiming, then that's their fault. You can either choose not to answer or answer truthfully. Don't punish the players that ask. That's just bastard.

I figured. So they knew there were actions on Chickadee, and I claimed an action on Chickadee. Something should have made them stop, but really, I'm not surprised they didn't. It was obvious from the moment they voted that they were super tunneled. The problem with accounts that say they are super logical or are going to use reason to solve the game is that they rarely do. They're the ones most likely to fall into a tunnel or get super emotional, and the fact of that matter is that what they tout as reason or logic doesn't matter in mafia. I used to be all about picking apart arguments and finding inconsistencies. I'd state that I'd "logic you to death". And during that time, I was a horrific scum hunter. I still am when I let my emotions get the better of me and don't take a step back. That's exactly what I want to breed when I play scum. I want you to argue and get emotional until no one pays attention to you. The key actually does fall down to motivation and intent. Why did that player do X? What do they have to gain? Etc.etc.etc. It's actually a lot easier to do this when you're not involved in the game, tbh, but it can still be done. I mean, I probably should have noticed Thor putting a lot of weight on page 1 posts. That's normally a bad argument, and Thor knows that. The fact that we had a blue moon situation here doesn't change the fact that early game posts rarely mean anything, and cases that rely on those posts are half-baked. The thing was, I really wasn't paying much attention to Thor enough to try to sort him. He made a Nacho-scum type of move, and I really wasn't caring. I mean, I could have approached pretty much everything differently, but that's the thing about hindsight.

Tails: We didn't stop pushing you was because of both the super damning flavor cop result and crumb, as well as the fact that no deaths at all meant that there was another protective around. With Jayne gone, BG didn't make sense for *anyone* except arguably Simon, and if there were another protective in the game(as there clearly was because there were no deaths) then they were more likely to be Simon than you, which meant your claim simply didn't work with the game state. Our check on Chickadee was far more interested in whether or not she performed an action(because if she had, she was clearly lying scum), and not whether or not an action came to her(because if one didn't, it wouldn't be a guilty on you or anyone else; you'd just claim to have protected someone else). Your play was actually town enough( from my perspective, Drixx didn't like your entrance), but your claim didn't work with the game state.

*cough*Jailkeeper*cough*. Yes, I know that was my actual role, but if you want to talk about how you couldn't believe a fake claim because there were missing kills, missing kills that can easily be explained by a role that blocks all kills on a target, then your math is still wrong, even if you are getting the right answer.

[Tails]

@Cerb: I went over my thought process in the PT. But yeah, I never thought I had a shot of winning. I even thought about leashing myself and giving town a second doctor, but I knew A50 would never allow it if I voiced the thought out loud.

[Tails]

If I knew there was no second team, though, I might have tried going for a shot.