Overkill 1: Serenity/Firefly (GAME OVER)

[Cerberus v666]

Alright! I'm at a computer.

First, thanks for the game A50. I'm glad Drixx and I got to keep up our habit of being very important people in the theme of games we play in.

Regarding balance: Chickadee's role was definitely overpowered. Perhaps it's just because we didn't see sufficient town imagery, but the scum imagery was clearly enough scummy to enable strong arguments to be made that they're scum; she really was functionally a day cop for at least 3 of the 5 scum slots. That combined with a masonry is a bit much, even with 3 anti-town shots in play.

The scum protectives likely weren't enough; none of them were capable of being proactive while defending themselves even a single time.

Mala's role was...difficult, to say the least. I do agree that she should have been informed of who mal was. That would have been a decent way to help her out. The only way she would have known who Malcolm was without mass claiming of the flavor pieces left in our role PM's was through them getting lynched/venge'd and Bujaber dying and her somehow convincing everyone to lynch a conftown. Like...no. Not going to happen.

I think an interesting take on her role(and way to balance out chickadee's) would have been to give chickadee's investigative ability to Mala. That gives her a way to find Mal and makes it so that overpowered investigative ability wasn't going to be used perfectly in town's favor; perhaps limited protection instead of unlimited should have been attached in that case as well.

EJ's role was fine? Survivor non-weak ascetic BP hider seems like it should always be able to win, so the win condition might be too easy compared to a standard survivor. EJ should have never been at risk of being lynched or shot if not for their own gambits.

Now, the flavor thing: I don't think that having any bit of flavor in our role PM's that existed outside the sample role pm should have happened, or if it did, it should have happened for everyone, and been made clear to the scum. The clears we got from the whole thing with flicker shouldn't have been possible. The guilties clearly weren't, so that's fine at least...but in a game with a cop and masons, getting additional clears for free shouldn't be possible(especially when a single crew member flip clears 3 other individuals(two of whom were masons, sure, but still)).

Balance thoughts all done.

ND39: Drixx was CERTAIN you guys were scum on D1, but after comparing your play here and your play in Heroes, he decided that it was a false positive because your play was so different. You'll have to hear from him on his thoughts there, but yeah, you coming into the slot likely saved you guys from being lynched D1.

[Cerberus v666]

Alright! I'm at a computer.

First, thanks for the game A50. I'm glad Drixx and I got to keep up our habit of being very important people in the theme of games we play in.

Regarding balance: Chickadee's role was definitely overpowered. Perhaps it's just because we didn't see sufficient town imagery, but the scum imagery was clearly enough scummy to enable strong arguments to be made that they're scum; she really was functionally a day cop for at least 3 of the 5 scum slots. That combined with a masonry is a bit much, even with 3 anti-town shots in play.

The scum protectives likely weren't enough; none of them were capable of being proactive while defending themselves even a single time.

Mala's role was...difficult, to say the least. I do agree that she should have been informed of who mal was. That would have been a decent way to help her out. The only way she would have known who Malcolm was without mass claiming of the flavor pieces left in our role PM's was through them getting lynched/venge'd and Bujaber dying and her somehow convincing everyone to lynch a conftown. Like...no. Not going to happen.

I think an interesting take on her role(and way to balance out chickadee's) would have been to give chickadee's investigative ability to Mala. That gives her a way to find Mal and makes it so that overpowered investigative ability wasn't going to be used perfectly in town's favor; perhaps limited protection instead of unlimited should have been attached in that case as well.

EJ's role was fine? Survivor non-weak ascetic BP hider seems like it should always be able to win, so the win condition might be too easy compared to a standard survivor. EJ should have never been at risk of being lynched or shot if not for their own gambits.

Now, the flavor thing: I don't think that having any bit of flavor in our role PM's that existed outside the sample role pm should have happened, or if it did, it should have happened for everyone, and been made clear to the scum. The clears we got from the whole thing with flicker shouldn't have been possible. The guilties clearly weren't, so that's fine at least...but in a game with a cop and masons, getting additional clears for free shouldn't be possible(especially when a single crew member flip clears 3 other individuals(two of whom were masons, sure, but still)).

Balance thoughts all done.

ND39: Drixx was CERTAIN you guys were scum on D1, but after comparing your play here and your play in Heroes, he decided that it was a false positive because your play was so different. You'll have to hear from him on his thoughts there, but yeah, you coming into the slot likely saved you guys from being lynched D1.

<3 Thanks for that. Do you think I might have gotten further in the game if A50 had given me a reasonable fakeclaim? Faking abilities in Heroes was difficult enough but trying to figure something like that out without knowing anything about the flavour or general inexperience with playing scum/anti-town roles in general - This was only my 4th game ever, where I haven’t played as town - not just on MS.

Or had I been playing this slot alone, from the getgo. Math did a pretty decent job, considering he didn’t really know what was happening in the game, most of the time. Anyone would have lockedtowned us based solely on our Discord chat. I mean obviously - minus the NK talk.

Anyway, as I already explained to A50, playing as an SK is very different than playing Mafia. Also Heroes was my first scum/anti-town Mafia game ever.

~Nancy

I think there was no rational reason to suspect your slot other than PoE and setup spec. Reasonable fake claims/changes in the setup would have been helpful. I do, however, think that a review of D1's play that flagged us in light of the realization that it was unlikely more groupscum existed would have probably sunk your slot eventually no matter what, but you would have definitely had a better shot at staying alive, and being caught would have required people actual review early game play(which nobody ever does).

[Cerberus v666]

Just so you all know it, the next Overkill will have tweaks to many aspects. No 2 role PMs will be exactly the same regardless of role/alignment. Fake claims already provided for all non-town players. Referencing game-related interactions with the mod outside of your own Role PM and/or action results is an offense punished by a modkill, regardless of whether it's true or fake.

Also, info available about your own flavor with links to another site (imdb) for reference. HOWEVER, knowledge of any flavor is NOT necessary and will have no bearing on the game at all. (That's me saying there will be no Flavor Cops and the flavor cannot be gamed anyway).

What will the theme be?

[Cerberus v666]

I figured. So they knew there were actions on Chickadee, and I claimed an action on Chickadee. Something should have made them stop, but really, I'm not surprised they didn't. It was obvious from the moment they voted that they were super tunneled. The problem with accounts that say they are super logical or are going to use reason to solve the game is that they rarely do. They're the ones most likely to fall into a tunnel or get super emotional, and the fact of that matter is that what they tout as reason or logic doesn't matter in mafia. I used to be all about picking apart arguments and finding inconsistencies. I'd state that I'd "logic you to death". And during that time, I was a horrific scum hunter. I still am when I let my emotions get the better of me and don't take a step back. That's exactly what I want to breed when I play scum. I want you to argue and get emotional until no one pays attention to you. The key actually does fall down to motivation and intent. Why did that player do X? What do they have to gain? Etc.etc.etc. It's actually a lot easier to do this when you're not involved in the game, tbh, but it can still be done. I mean, I probably should have noticed Thor putting a lot of weight on page 1 posts. That's normally a bad argument, and Thor knows that. The fact that we had a blue moon situation here doesn't change the fact that early game posts rarely mean anything, and cases that rely on those posts are half-baked. The thing was, I really wasn't paying much attention to Thor enough to try to sort him. He made a Nacho-scum type of move, and I really wasn't caring. I mean, I could have approached pretty much everything differently, but that's the thing about hindsight.

Tails: We didn't stop pushing you was because of both the super damning flavor cop result and crumb, as well as the fact that no deaths at all meant that there was another protective around. With Jayne gone, BG didn't make sense for *anyone* except arguably Simon, and if there were another protective in the game(as there clearly was because there were no deaths) then they were more likely to be Simon than you, which meant your claim simply didn't work with the game state. Our check on Chickadee was far more interested in whether or not she performed an action(because if she had, she was clearly lying scum), and not whether or not an action came to her(because if one didn't, it wouldn't be a guilty on you or anyone else; you'd just claim to have protected someone else). Your play was actually town enough( from my perspective, Drixx didn't like your entrance), but your claim didn't work with the game state.

[Cerberus v666]

Also...just another note: You mention that motivation and intent is what's most important. That's something we agree on. Approaching the game rationally doesn't mean disregarding the intent behind actions; it means that you look at the game searching for what choice a rational actor with town vs scum win conditions would make, and decide if the actions taken by other individuals in the circumstances that exist make the most sense for them as a rational actor with either alignment. You break down an individual slots play and claimed actions and assign weights to each piece of evidence for or against them as town/scum, put it all together, and figure out which side of the scale things have tipped towards.

[Cerberus v666]

@Cerb: What I've noticed is you do approach the game rationally, but then you get paranoid and have over-complicated assumptions. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know. In other words, sometimes if it looks to be good to be true it still is and you're just lucky!

Yes. You are completely correct. We figure out the most likely scenarios, but then come up with this ridiculous list of less probable, but must still be considered, possibilities...probably because we keep NOT QUITE WINNING because we forget about some small thing. :-/ That's definitely something we need to get over, but it's difficult to just...accept things are how they appear. We're not *that* good at the game, so it feels more likely that we made a mistake than we got everything right. *shrug*

[Cerberus v666]

I would also consider adding a rule in regards to how much of our role we are allowed to share.

Discussion about how roles were formatted played pretty predominantly during the game, so if you wanted to nip that in the bud, you could just simply add a rule that no discussion of role pms be allowed at all, and have the sample town role pm placed at the beginning, and that be the end of it.

Or have all town roles be formatted the same way to cut down on gaming the system. A sample town PM is provided in the OP as usual.

Like, if I was asked if the Doctor version I use is the standard (1 kill heal) or the variant.. I wouldn't know how to answer that w.o. either calling EJ a liar or lying to you myself.

Asking the mod clarifying questions, and then relaying those answers, should not be banned and punishable by a mod kill. If EJ didn't do the required homework before fake claiming, then that's their fault. You can either choose not to answer or answer truthfully. Don't punish the players that ask. That's just bastard.

I figured. So they knew there were actions on Chickadee, and I claimed an action on Chickadee. Something should have made them stop, but really, I'm not surprised they didn't. It was obvious from the moment they voted that they were super tunneled. The problem with accounts that say they are super logical or are going to use reason to solve the game is that they rarely do. They're the ones most likely to fall into a tunnel or get super emotional, and the fact of that matter is that what they tout as reason or logic doesn't matter in mafia. I used to be all about picking apart arguments and finding inconsistencies. I'd state that I'd "logic you to death". And during that time, I was a horrific scum hunter. I still am when I let my emotions get the better of me and don't take a step back. That's exactly what I want to breed when I play scum. I want you to argue and get emotional until no one pays attention to you. The key actually does fall down to motivation and intent. Why did that player do X? What do they have to gain? Etc.etc.etc. It's actually a lot easier to do this when you're not involved in the game, tbh, but it can still be done. I mean, I probably should have noticed Thor putting a lot of weight on page 1 posts. That's normally a bad argument, and Thor knows that. The fact that we had a blue moon situation here doesn't change the fact that early game posts rarely mean anything, and cases that rely on those posts are half-baked. The thing was, I really wasn't paying much attention to Thor enough to try to sort him. He made a Nacho-scum type of move, and I really wasn't caring. I mean, I could have approached pretty much everything differently, but that's the thing about hindsight.

Tails: We didn't stop pushing you was because of both the super damning flavor cop result and crumb, as well as the fact that no deaths at all meant that there was another protective around. With Jayne gone, BG didn't make sense for *anyone* except arguably Simon, and if there were another protective in the game(as there clearly was because there were no deaths) then they were more likely to be Simon than you, which meant your claim simply didn't work with the game state. Our check on Chickadee was far more interested in whether or not she performed an action(because if she had, she was clearly lying scum), and not whether or not an action came to her(because if one didn't, it wouldn't be a guilty on you or anyone else; you'd just claim to have protected someone else). Your play was actually town enough( from my perspective, Drixx didn't like your entrance), but your claim didn't work with the game state.

*cough*Jailkeeper*cough*. Yes, I know that was my actual role, but if you want to talk about how you couldn't believe a fake claim because there were missing kills, missing kills that can easily be explained by a role that blocks all kills on a target, then your math is still wrong, even if you are getting the right answer.

Tails, the jailkeeper thing explained the lack of deaths on N1, but not N2, given that any competent scum team would have realized they had no choice but to kill. Your bewildering decision to jailkeep chickadee rather than killing someone was not something we considered, because it wasn't a good move to make, and we assume competence on the part of our enemies.

Honestly though, even without all that...there was almost no way you were going to endgame. Perhaps if Cheeky never flipped and didn't stop any kills you might have had a chance, but against a competent doctor who, upon their flip, would guarantee your own lynch...it was a challenging path to victory, to say the least.

[Cerberus v666]

I'd thought I'd done something similar in FFT, but it's actually kinda the opposite.
It was known only to scum that, while they could submit multiple kills, only one would every resolve, if possible--and their factional kill had higher priority than the 'Job Class' abilities, which were usually the means that players had towards stopping kills. Scum also couldn't be killed. Basically, since the setup only had 2 scum players in it, I tried to mitigate swing REALLY HARD with private mechanics.

I wish I would've been a little more transparent about some of the mechanics, though, since town put all their eggs in a mass-protection play that could have never played out well for them.

Subject: FFTACTICS MAFIA : THE CHURCH OF GLABADOS

Spoiler: THE LUCAVI'S FACTIONAL ABILITIES

"THE LUCAVI OF LEGEND WAS AN UNBEATABLE, FEROCIOUS MONSTER":

You may not be killed. Only the collective strength of the Zodiac Braves can defeat you with a lynch. All kills, regardless of priority, will fail against a Lucavi.

"I OFFER MY OWN LIFE FOR YOUR RESURRECTION":

Even in death, The Lucavi know that more blood must be shed to herald Ultima's return. When the first Lucavi is lynched, during the following Night Phase, they may pick a player who was voting for them--the chosen player is killed. Nothing can prevent this kill.

"HE'S POSSESSED BY LUCAVI!":

The Lucavi hold sway over the hearts of humans. Once per night, you may target a player to cause them to be unable to take any actions. This does not count against your action limit.

"WITHOUT POWER, NOTHING CAN BE ACHIEVED...":

Each Night, a single Lucavi may decide to kill a single player. This factional kill does not count against your action limit. Job Classes exist that will provide players with a killing ability. Members of the Lucavi faction can only kill a single player at night--multiple kills may be submitted, but only one will ever succeed, if possible. The Lucavi Factional Kill will always take priority to succeed over Job Class kills. If submitting multiple Job Class kills, please specify 'high' or 'low' priority in the case that all resolve successfully.

/me laughs evilly.

It's even more entertaining when you consider the fact that this mass protect plan and the play around it should have been able to be used to identify scum, but your "hidden scum post pregame recruit" mechanic meant THAT wasn't a thing either.

Also...no protective should have worked against more than one kill. The hider and Jailkeep+LR combination should not have been able to create killless nights. *shrug*

Varsoon, go watch Firefly. Seriously.