Open 738: Purgatory | LA FIN

[ManateeDude]

Did you know?

Mouses can squeeze through holes as small as a dime

Votecount 3.01

Irrelephant (1) - Eragon
Not Voting - volxen, LabRat01, Ausuka, the worst, Keyser Söze, Irrelephant11

Time till end of hell phase 2: (expired on 2018-11-27 22:40:00)

[the worst]

11/10 troll mod (also cool avi)

[ManateeDude]

11/10 troll mod (also cool avi)

Funnily enough someone told me there was hammer

[the worst]

who was it? fess up

[Eragon]

Uh I told them at 4:31 last night

Does that count?

[the worst]

Ye that's probably it I guess

[ManateeDude]

Uh I told them at 4:31 last night

Does that count?

oO00oPPss

[volxen]

You think scum-labrat is chainsaw defending scum-me on PAGE ONE against TWO PLAYERS?

I don't think it's too far-fetched that scum!Rat would chainsaw defend one of her scumbuddies against two players. And her two posts where she attacked both TW and Lefty for asking a question about your slot were on pages three and four, not on page one:

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way
OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.
Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

This was at the bottom of page three.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.
Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

And this was as the top of page four.

And both posts were written within seven minutes of each other, which makes it even more odd.

can you walk me through your thoughts when you were writing this volxen? what's the purpose of chainsaw defending somebody that early when suspicions are not set in stone?

At the time I wrote that post, Labrat was the player I was the most suspicious of, and I found it suspect that within a few minutes she attacked both TW and Lefty (your predecessor) for asking questions to each other about Keyser. I thought she might have been chainsaw defending Keyser because he was her scumbuddy.

Of course a lot has changed since then, as I think Keyser is town now.

[the worst]

Chainsaw defending someone doesn't make the defended person more likely to be a scumbuddy, just the defender more likely to be scum.. Scum chainsaw defend when they see derpcases against players they know to be town just as quickly as they chainsaw defend bad cases on their buddies.

[Keyser Söze]

Godammit! Still haven't rolled scum with

the worst

(there were even improved odds too: 3 from 9!)

btw, were you planning to say this since before the game started?

I recall someone saying that they want their alignments to be the same as in the watchers game, were you scum there?

@LabRat

Who told you this?

I certainly didn’t talk about it in the sign up thread.

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser my love if you had to dayvig someone based off rvs who would it be and why?

Don’t cross the line though or a tragedy may occur
That’s better
ԅ( ˘ω˘ԅ)
so many animal avatars in the game...

How were you familiar with my meta too (sheep wearing wolveskin - or Ducky in this scenario) THIS EARLY

Who told you about my relationship with Irrelphant?

You didn’t play WW.

[Keyser Söze]

I am forced to suspect you share a PT with Irrellephant (or TW, but I read him as town).

[Keyser Söze]

@Irrelephant
@TW

Thoughts?

[Keyser Söze]

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T

Your discrediting, colourful language and fluff has no power over anyone now.

They are awake.

We speak in tangibles now.

Why aren’t you voting Dr J?

This is amazing

Sorry

[LabRat01]

I've been catching up since quite a while. Posting the first few posts, but I have to go in a few minutes, so I'll post the rest when I get back

[LabRat01]

I did miss a lot of the later posts, though, so sorry for that. They kind of got lost among all of the other, stronger pushes. :/
The way I remembered the game, except for me, no one seriously tried switching wagons from Creat to anyone else. I kind of expected you to be active about protecting someone you think might be town, especially since I didn’t even remember you saying anything about creat being townie after you discarded your meta read on them, but I guess you do have a point here. Sorry for that

(

Again, I don't know why you are hating on me for not defending Creature enough. Believe you me, if my read was strong my actions would have reflected that intensity (like today). I do not understand how you cannot see this. I do not understand your angle about me being his personal bodyguard either. The playerlist is 9 players. He can defend himself. I needed to defend myself too. I have fought a non-stop fight this game.

)

Sigh, you’re reading it wrong. That part of the read wasn’t very important to me anyways, as it’s nooot a strictly scum indicative action, but I did miss quite a few of your posts, which I apologize for.
Me talking about you not defending creat in the beginning of the post was there mostly to explain the situation to ausuka, since she defended you mostly based on “you town-reading creat”, which at that moment I thought was unlikely to be true. It was not an argument I put much weight on.
The thing I was most confident in was the reasoning behind the CFD votes, but tbh I think the explanation does kind of make sense. :/

I’m not going to use that as an argument, but actually, the fact that you said “he should be getting TRs from TRing creat” already makes it a valid scum motivation.
But that’s more of a fun fact than anything

(

Thinking further on this today, when I looked at Eragon's D1 ISO - in my opinion, the nature of Eragon's town read of Creature and subsequent actions in D1 demonstrate he was not interested in town cred / winning town points

)

That’s not sth I’d personally like to rely on tbh.
The read felt ok to me, because it fit how I remembered Eragon get his reads normally, but I don’t think it should be indicative in either way. Even if he’s scum, I don’t think it would be that difficult for him to enter the game with making a honest read on a townie.
If he didn’t read the thread and he was asked to spontaneously read someone, the read would be 9/10 times a honest one regardless of alignment. I wouldn’t expect him to blatantly lie about that read even as scum, because without the knowledge of what happened on the thread, he’d have to base the read on his own “standard” scum-hunting ideas anyways.
That’s not a reason to push him imo, but I’m not gonna TR him for it either.
The SRs he got from that are a bit more interesting imo. I still kind of think that it would be weird for so many people to miss or misread eragon’s explanations at the same time (don’t remember who pushed him rn, but that might be a good way to start off later).

What I SR the most was the lack of effort and the passive attitude towards the push while trying to CFD 1-2 hour before EoD. It felt weird to me that you’d bother trying to change the lynch when you didn’t bother to defend creat against his attackers or explain why is your push a better lynch.
If you didn’t have strong enough reads to either defend creature or push your wagon and there were a lot other players who had much better reads than you, trying to change the wagon, was sth that felt so incredibly detrimental and REALLY unlikely for a townie to do.

Did you notice I'd fucked off by then? I had no power, no voice, I was the rival wagon... my motivation and self-will was at an all-time low. D1 was either me or Creature: I had no strong scum reads to push. I bet you one thing: If I'd magically appeared right near the end to hard town defend Creature, the Keyser-Creature scum team theories would have only got worse :lol: So I left D1 with an AtE reaction test. "incredibly detrimental and REALLY unlikely for a townie to do." - at worst you can call me anti-town, and I'll accept that opinion - but you pushing it as scum alignment indicative is very reachy/suspicious.

No, I didn’t think of that. You did indeed write stuff about being uncomfortable about the you&Creat SvS reads, but tbh the only thing I was thinking about at that time was if the tone and the weak distancing/disagreeing with the reads is indicative of SvS/TvS or not. I didn’t really focus on reading the emotions there :/

And tbh I don’t get the last point. I can accept the townies being anti-town in a way of “acting scummy on purpose” or “AtE self-voting” or “making weird things for w/e reason”, which would harm only the others’ opinions on the “jesting” player, but being anti-town in a way that wouldn’t bring any benefit to the player and could seriously hinder the other players with getting and checking their reads on someone they want to lynch, is just a step too far.
Sth like that happening while the player was making a fully conscious and logical decision would be nothing less than a scum-claim imo. I’m kind of starting to see the emotional reasons which might have led to it looking like that, but tbh at that time the CFD votes REALLY looked to me that way, which left me really freaked out.

[LabRat01]

(I've found you very hard to read all game, especially with the paranoia that you can take advantage of knowing my playstyle without me being able to compare you to anything)

Fun fact, I really doubt I would have ever said so much about myself nor admitted to knowing so many players’ playstyles as scum.
That’s sth, which is difficult to avoid doing as town, while being fully productive, but it would be a total pain to it do as scum as no one would prob appreciate the effort anyways

[LabRat01]

I have to re-read irrelephant.

And btw, I remembered someone asking me about it, but I’ll prob get to it later

Eragon is ok to me rn. Like, just ok. I don’t think the way he entered the thread was bad and the way he didn’t understand my vote on volx despite wanting to follow the exact same logic at the beginning of the game feels like he honestly forgot about that, which is dumb but slightly townie.

Eragon entered the game with previous knowledge of how to play the game and how to lynch during the heaven phase, so the post he made right after joining the game, about heaven-lynching felt like sth he’d say because he honestly believed that it’s the right thing to do.
Him forgetting about that when it actually came to doing it felt as if he got distracted by “actually having to think of who’s town”, which he didn’t have to do in the previous game because he was scum.
Like, it's dumb, but I think he'd be more likely to do it as town than scum.
That's not my most confident read ever, but tbh I'm ok with it being like that rn

[LabRat01]

You even answered the read and I scum-read you for it later, so don’t tell me you just forgot about that now
[SNIPPED QUOTES OF THE HEAVEN-LYNCH DISCUSSION FORM HELL PHASE 1]
Why didn’t you even mention anything about it being scummy back then if you’re so confident in it being “bulshit” rn?

(

I've been highlighting your suspicious behaviour for a while now, but the recent stunts from you lot need to be called out for the bullshit they are.

)

Hahaha you’re not even trying to understand what I said

Let me repeat:
Just a while ago, during the Heaven phase, you yelled at me that my logic for heaven-lynching was “obviously scummy” and “bullshit”.
I have been talking about that method of lynching since WAY before the heaven phase and you literally haven’t said anything about it being “stupid” or “scummy” until you started SRing me now.

I quoted the discussion posts and the stuff I said during the game about my reasons for lynching Volx to heaven in my previous post (that stuff you snipped to make the post shorter).

If you don’t want to read them (again), the discussion started by Eragon introducing "the strategy" during the heaven phase, with which I agreed, but said that we should be careful with it. I was planning to lynch like that anyways, so it doesn’t really matter though.
No one (including you) said anything about it being good/bad until I returned with the subject again later, saying that I think Volx might be a good heaven info-lynch (still during the hell phase).
Irrelephant said that my idea is scummy, which created a bit of a discussion and you joke-answered him that “If volxen flips scum, you’re gonna susp Irrelephant” (which I understood as an indirect agreement with my logic. Or at least, you were talking directly about my logic, but didn’t find it scummy back then).

If you think the strategy is so obviously scummy right now, then why wasn’t it scummy back when you weren’t SRing me? How come you were so happy to yell at me hard for it right now, when you didn’t even bother to disagree with it back then?

All the posts made about that are (again) placed in the spoiler.

Spoiler:

this is what i feel needs to happen for heaven phase

Heaven 1: send the towniest person we can spare(basically mislynch bait)
Hell 1: hopefully scum, but if town its ok
Heaven 2: this is when it gets interesting with this amount of players, ESPECIALLY if we put town into both heaven and hell phase 1.
IF we send another mislynch bait we can spare to heaven, then thats 3 townies down and puts us into judgement day, with the experienced players left and only the inexperienced ones to solve in judgement day, where the thread is closed.
IF we send a super towny experienced player(im not naming any names but Irrelephant for example) they will do better in judgement day, but we will have a mislynch bait player in the thread maybe? but hopefully we feel good enough with it how it is.

IF we lynch town to hell Phase 1, i suggest putting experienced player to heaven
IF we lynch scum to hell Phase 1, i suggest putting towny/spareable player to heaven and continuing from there.

this is what i feel needs to happen for heaven phase

Heaven 1: send the towniest person we can spare(basically mislynch bait)

Kind of agree, but don’t go overboard with it
everyone’s got different reads anyway, so honestly, any kind of townie-looking lynch except the super confident/helpful ones will be plenty good

P.Edit
About the heaven lynch, I think I’d be fine with volx after all
That’s not personally my strong SR, but if he really is scum (I'm kind of tempted to believe in the TRs on him, but meh), that’s a very valuable flip to get (even if it’s a heaven lynch imo)
I really doubt that scum would just remain idle if they got such a wonderful opportunity to get rid of one of them to heaven and only 2 people (as far as I remember) seemed to strongly push them being town

P.Edit
About the heaven lynch, I think I’d be fine with volx after all
That’s not personally my strong TR, but if he really is scum (I'm kind of tempted to believe in the TRs on him, but meh), that’s a very valuable flip to get (even if it’s a heaven lynch imo)
I really doubt that scum would just remain idle if they got such a wonderful opportunity to get rid of one of them to heaven and only 2 people (as far as I remember) seemed to strongly push them being town

1 - this comment about sending volxen to heaven even if scum is pinging me. Do you personally think he'll flip scum? Do you think using heaven lynches to sort is a good strategy in this setup?

No, I don’t think volx is likely to flip scum rn. His later posts were better and he’s strongly TR by my strong TR, which kinda makes me less confident in my previous read. He’s still a person I’m struggling to get a read on, but I feel that I should sort him as soon as possible, because he gives a lot of spicy interactions

Yeah, I do think sending not-obv town to heaven it is a valid strategy. A bit more in a 15p than in a 9p, but still it makes a lot more sense to do that than to simply send the most townie player there
You’d be basically wasting a cop check and a full day of discussion

VOTE: volx

voting DrJ would be a total waste of reads imo. I really do like volx's latest content and there's no reason to get rid of lock-townies (DrJ) during the first heaven phase imo.
Satisfied with this lynch for today, prob not gonna switch unless someone manages to make me seriously paranoid that volx is scum

1 - this comment about sending volxen to heaven even if scum is pinging me. Do you personally think he'll flip scum?

tbh, if Volxen did flip scum in heaven I would look at you (you are a type of scum-player to white-knight his scum teammates to high heaven and not bus) :cool:

[Ausuka]

You think scum-labrat is chainsaw defending scum-me on PAGE ONE against TWO PLAYERS?

I don't think it's too far-fetched that scum!Rat would chainsaw defend one of her scumbuddies against two players. And her two posts where she attacked both TW and Lefty for asking a question about your slot were on pages three and four, not on page one:

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way
OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.
Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

This was at the bottom of page three.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.
Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

And this was as the top of page four.

And both posts were written within seven minutes of each other, which makes it even more odd.

can you walk me through your thoughts when you were writing this volxen? what's the purpose of chainsaw defending somebody that early when suspicions are not set in stone?

At the time I wrote that post, Labrat was the player I was the most suspicious of, and I found it suspect that within a few minutes she attacked both TW and Lefty (your predecessor) for asking questions to each other about Keyser. I thought she might have been chainsaw defending Keyser because he was her scumbuddy.

Of course a lot has changed since then, as I think Keyser is town now.

Right I get that but I just want more detail on the "chainsaw defending Keyser because he was her scumbuddy" bit. What motivation exactly does Labrat have for doing that at the time, what's the point?

[Ausuka]

I can't not townread worst here I think.

[LabRat01]

I can't not townread worst here I think.

took long enough

[Ausuka]

Carmen and lefty both need to show up, willing to bet there's a scum in at least one of those two

Why did you think this?

[LabRat01]

YES, I do think that lynching “uncertain town” to heaven is a good idea

(

That is tactically naïve and backwards. I would never send my weak town/nullish reads to heaven. This is my first time playing this setup but I feel we need to play one day at a time. Send town to heaven and scum to hell - I don't think we have extra days to play around with.

)

I am willing to send my weaker town-reads to heaven if
-the lynch gives enough info
and
-if the person would be unlikely to be ever lynched to hell anyways because of all of the hard TRs from the other players.

IF that person is scum (which you think is unlikely), you’re basically given the choice whatever if you think it’s better to lynch them and get the info that the people pushing them have been wrong the whole time (and try to deduce how many scum have been among them, see their reactions and the way they go about changing their reads), or to let them live and have to deal with yourself and your own TR on them and all of the townies who “are TRing them HARD” and getting all of their interaction reads wrong because of it.

And IF that person is town and if you’re TRing them, but are getting paranoid about them from time to time, while the other townies are REALLY confident that thay’re gonna flip town, which is freaking you out, but also making it very unlikely for the person in question to ever get lynched to hell, it be def better to just get rid of them imo.

IF the risk is too high because your TR is too weak, then you’re obviously NOT gonna use the strategy.
My read on Volx was strong enough for that imo. By the end of the hell phase I started getting confident that Volx is a good lynch and is likely to flip town.
And that’s a choice, which I think would help me sort players more than just a lynch among those I’m absolutely confident will flip town.
Does it make sense to you?

[LabRat01]

(

I do not understand your reasoning. Plus, I feel it is driven more by scum agenda then town-motivation.

)

It’s not. I do believe in the reasoning and as long as you don’t overdo it, it should be more often beneficial to the town than harmful.

But the idea of lynching uncertain town to heaven is actually not fully mine.
I did consider the subject on my own before hearing the idea, but tbh most of the reasoning came from a player I highly respect, who played in the previous purgatory game on the ToS forums.

The town did try to lynch people based on that reasoning in that game and even though it did end in getting 1 scum lynched to heaven (which wasn’t even because of the strategy but because of a really dumb CFD), it did provide more reactions and gave more AI interaction arguments to analyze than what I’ve seen people get from the previous purgatory on MS (or at least in the first days of the game, because later it turned to shit because of the player list issues… which is not related to the way the game was played imo).
And that was despite having a way lower quality of players on the ToS forums than on MS
(Or at least that was the feeling I got from reading both games)

You can ask Eragon about the purgatory game on ToS if you want to, he has prob more direct experience with it than me, because he was a player in there and I was not.
And feel free to look at the last purgatory game here as well. I don’t have the link, but it was a game hosted around half a year ago and the first townie to get lynched to heaven was Ruru (I think), the last should be a hydra of someone and RC (scum) (if you find that, it means that it’s the correct game)