Excalibur [Endgame]

[Gamma Emerald]

It starts. Thank God.

Gg no re, let's get a perfect strategy going on and not randomly duel each other day 1.

Yes, let’s
Not that anyone will listen.

[Gamma Emerald]

How should we handle FoS if everything is gladiates?
Do we want to run an unofficial FoS system or something?

I’d be down to keep track of that if we do

[Gamma Emerald]

A BP IC with a vig no less

[Gamma Emerald]

Everyone let us all begin by giving our Arthur reveal.

If you don’t know what I mean I am saying we all soft Merlin role and claim a person to be Arthur.
In case Merlin is night killed/lynched by accident we have our cleared townie.

Let me begin:
Varsoon is Arthur

Fuuuuck no
Read the mechanics again.

[Gamma Emerald]

Everyone let us all begin by giving our Arthur reveal.

If you don’t know what I mean I am saying we all soft Merlin role and claim a person to be Arthur.

In case Merlin is night killed/lynched by accident we have our cleared townie.

Let me begin:
Varsoon is Arthur

My issue lies with the bolded: yeah we get a conftown, for one day: because the scumkill resolves before the claiming Arthur will die through this plan if he doesn’t claim the sword before Merlin dies.

[Gamma Emerald]

holy quarterbacking, batman

?

[Gamma Emerald]

Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.

Sure. Give me Excalibur.

Town should probably vote for a consensus scumread to claim Excalibur, for maximum benefit. If they're scum they can't claim and we get a confirmation in the night. If they're not scum and claim we know they're IC -- they're gonna either contribute the next day and kill themselves, or Merlin confirms they're Arthur and we move on.

No, the correct method is for me to claim Excalibur, and then next day if I'm Arthur, to inform me.

Basically, me being unkillable and IC means people can't do the stupid paranoia thing about me. I get to give my reads without the whole "LLD is great at scum" argument.

I'm the optimal target.

This sounds reasonable, and no one that I’d want to promote this agenda for over LLD is around, so I’m in favor of this plan.

[Gamma Emerald]

LL coming out hot with the reads.
What makes Nancy and UT town?
Why is mechanical talk scummy in an open setup?
If I was scum and you asked me to bus-gladiate, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.

Kill resolves before claim. Yes, we'd effectively gate the scum kill but we'd also render the setup as 13-4 mountainous.
But I think you're right in that we could effectively use the sword claiming as a one-shot cop, but, again, that renders the bulletproof aspect of it kind of useless.

@MOD: If Merlin dies and flips, does Arthur's identity get revealed with the flip?
Can Merlin claim Excalibur?

Tone on both. It's what I expect from them.

It's not that we can't talk mechanics. Mechanics is NAI. It's that talking mechanics and using them to smother other interactions that generate reads + create "content" for scummy players is scumsided. Explained in a prior post, happy to explain again.

Crossbus Gladiates are inherently bad for scum due to the White Flag rule. If one scum remains, they concede. Bussing is far more likely to create a single scum surviving scenario, and eventually scum need to leave associatives, which means bussing is bad, especially day 1.

On this: I think bussing in general is less effective at furthering scum’s goals than creating an association with a town player. In Children of Hurin, I let the association between Nero and me fester, and that caused the game winning mislynch to happen, though Town wasn’t winning towards the end anyway.

[Gamma Emerald]

Also I don't really agree that having a single strong town leader dramatically helps us here, it nearly cost us Witches Ball. Scum knowing who the one IC is makes it too easy for them to play around that slot. Consistently pushing PoE wins more often.

I refuse to be RC and force people to lynch in a list order. Actively refuse.

Yeah, you’re arguing with the person who got burned by that play, that’s not really doing anything cos they’re already onboard

[Gamma Emerald]

This sounds reasonable, and no one that I’d want to promote this agenda for over LLD is around, so I’m in favor of this plan.

There's also a problem that she could just hold the sword and not vig anyone, destroying the point of the mechanic - and we wouldn't want to lynch her because she'd be an IC.

Why would they want to? If they aren’t Arthur they die, and their influence dies with them.
This looks like a scum thought.

[Gamma Emerald]

LLD flipped scum again it's looking like

Not feeling this
HURT: Auro btw

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would they want to? If they aren’t Arthur they die, and their influence dies with them.
This looks like a scum thought.

They die only if they vig.
Which means a player with "influence" on getting the sword can just refuse to vig, and thus hold on to it stubbornly.

Exactly. Does it seem smarter to gamble on the 1/12 chance you are Arthur (as there are 12 that receive Knight Errant PMs) with the cost of losing your ability to lead from then on, or to hold fast and remain an influence to town’s benefit?

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would they want to? If they aren’t Arthur they die, and their influence dies with them.
This looks like a scum thought.

They die only if they vig.
Which means a player with "influence" on getting the sword can just refuse to vig, and thus hold on to it stubbornly.

Also interesting. My fears that a player might work anti-town as an IC is scummy?

How would an IC work anti-town? The scummy part is you trying to suggest a play that hurts Town most of the time.

[Gamma Emerald]

How would an IC work anti-town?

"Behave" anti-town, by refusing to follow optimal play from a pre-decided strategy.
This is outdated anyway, currently I agree with Varsoon, what's your take on Varsoon's philosophy vs DVa's?

How is using the sword optimal play?

[Gamma Emerald]

Exactly. Does it seem smarter to gamble on the 1/12 chance you are Arthur (as there are 12 that receive Knight Errant PMs) with the cost of losing your ability to lead from then on, or to hold fast and remain an influence to town’s benefit?

In the abscence of strategy, the latter.
If there's a town strategy otherwise, former.

Merlin, if alive, could confirm the person holding it is Arthur. No Merlin approval means the person is definitely not Arthur -- following prior discussed strategy, what should they do then? Suicide to give it up, or hold on to it?

If they’re actively acting in town’s benefit they should holster. If they’re inactive or they’re performing poorly using it might be wiser.

[Gamma Emerald]

with the cost of losing your ability to lead from then on, or to hold fast and remain an influence to town’s benefit?

Relatively new to the site, is there any individual who has reads much better than random?

Nancy, his post has nothing to do with Merlin holding the sword.

I would say yes, but in LLD’s case I trust her to be effective at leading and not fooled by bad reasoning.

[Gamma Emerald]

Making proper use of the Excalibur mechanic, to my eyes, is *heavily* reliant on town working together. Individual players pushing their own reads through, as opposed to forming consensus, would be anti-town. Am I wrong?

I agree with this
Is this what you were arguing?

[Gamma Emerald]

Making proper use of the Excalibur mechanic, to my eyes, is *heavily* reliant on town working together. Individual players pushing their own reads through, as opposed to forming consensus, would be anti-town. Am I wrong?

I agree with this
Is this what you were arguing?

Yep! My point was that a stubborn player who believes their reads are totally right (When they might not be) and keeping the sword to themselves, is anti-town in general - If we follow a strategy based on passing around the sword, which would rely on town cohesion.

Okay that makes sense. I might continue trying to refine strategy but I think you’re fine rn. Also I think your response to pressure was pretty towny, unless you’re a player who can flatly argue what you perceive as mechanically correct town play as scum, which I think takes development or a ton of confidence.
HEAL: Auro
What’s the current argument between Varsoon and DVa?

[Gamma Emerald]

My pressing starting question right now is:
How stronger does a Vig ability provide, in addition to Bulletproof?
Is it *strong enough* to benefit town's winning chances greatly enough to actually adopt a strategy where we want Arthur ends up with the sword?

Vig works like an extra lynch mechanically, although the truth of that depends on how it is used. So I think it should be pro-town overall, the variance is just how much.

[Gamma Emerald]

This guy feels scummy to me as well

Either you're tone-reading or there's some scummy content in what I've posted that you disagree with.
Which is it? If it's the latter, go ahead and engage me.

Why wouldn’t you want him engaging with you if it was the former?

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes but how do we force any player to duel? Why can’t scum just refuse? What’s stopping them from doing this? If there is no mechanic to force duels, then I don’t know how we ever get lynches.

In my imagination, someone REFUSING to gladiate is anti-town, and someone gladiates them for that.

@Dunnstral, yeah if it's "both" you can go ahead and engage with me on the content itself.
If you're scumreading me because I'm talking heavily about mechanics, sure. Can't help that.
Tone I'd say is playstyle, I feel like *every* game there's someone scumreading me off tone alone -- So I'd call that weak, but whatever suits you.

I *guess* Nevermind my last post...?

[Gamma Emerald]

3. (If Merlin's alive) Merlin confirms if Arthur the next day, says nothing if not, thus confirming to town that yesterday's winner isn't Arthur

And stuff like this that you're pushing seems anti-town

Pretty sure this step 3 should never happen

How?

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh okay then. So anyone - other than Merlin - should do this, if they’re convinced they’ve found scum. Got it.

Not unless they want to be lynched

Yolodueling is precisely what made town lose in BoR

I think a better read for determining the effect of yolodueling is Transformers Mafia, as that had a real duel mechanic rather than something akin to it

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm through pg 6 and auro has the most posts in the game by far but zero scumhunting, I don't count random questions. c'mon bro where's it at
certain other players (COUGH nancy COUGH) are guilty here too but not as badly
i don't think this is necessarily scummy but it's also not really helpful and honestly I think this massive setup discussion is gonna severely murder the motivation of the other 2/3 of the game playerlist because it's a ton of reading that is really hard to read unless you can really follow (and I couldn't, maybe I'm just an idiot tho)

that was up there for the most useless 7 pages I've ever read, at least to me. setup fiends will love it. i'm sure FG is loving it lol
i don't think i've ever read the words arthur, merlin or gladiate more before

What do you count as scumhunting then? I did make a cursory townread on Nancy, is that too 'random' for you too? I prefer to 'scumhunt' through engagement and questions, not outright-accusations.

I'll shut up with my attempts to figure a good strategy if town would rather just ignore it or not read it. If what you're saying is true, sure.
You see absolutely 0 utility in mechanics discussion? What if I tell you that through the process, we could come up with a consensus strategy reliant on town cohesion, and follow through to maximize town chances?

This reaction is in line with how I react to being accused of “not scumhunting” when I’m town.

[Gamma Emerald]

Fantastic Jodie Whitaker avatar Ariane
Anyway, back to grind after a break

[Gamma Emerald]

danke

Is this the grind or the break?

Was supposed to be the grind but became more break
Wasn’t helped by a lack of internet for a few hours

[Gamma Emerald]

Townread on Gamma Emerald -- I can feel he's being honest WRT his treatment of my slot, the progression from the initial scumread to his understanding my position felt genuine.

Gamma, any scumreads?

Not really rn, I’m curious about the formation of the anti-LLD movement, I think it’s probably scum motivated based on how it looks rn. This thought process is based on a theory crafted in what I feel is the spiritual predecessor to this. LLD, Fire, and MariaR should be familiar with this off the top of my head. Don’t expect Fire or Maria to back me up here though.

[Gamma Emerald]

I felt confident in LLD’s alignment, plus with LLD being designated as the claimant I saw no reason to concern about her.

[Gamma Emerald]

I felt confident in LLD’s alignment, plus with LLD being designated as the claimant I saw no reason to concern about her.

She made like 3 posts. How can you feel confident? And how was she designated? She just said she'd wanna take the sword

I liked what I saw in those 3 posts, mkay? And almost everyone seemed on board with her claiming the sword at that point.

[Gamma Emerald]

Hmm gonna have to take a nice look at Varsoon
Maybe even meta-dive him

[Gamma Emerald]

Like the new icon btw, Gamma. Guess I'll never be able to keep one towards you. Honestly, it makes me think I should have a different one once in awhile too... As Elsa still, of course.

Yeah I flip around between them at a whim
The last one was meant for Halloween + Witches Ball but I kept it for a long time after those were done.

Gamma when did you change your pronoun to "It"? Should I stop referring to you as "He"?

Like the new avi btw

Could’ve picked She but It felt more in line with my avatar character
I waffle around on whether I want to use my preferred pronoun or play the “match the flavor” game

[Gamma Emerald]

LLD
Cakez
And Something_Smart

Why S_S

[Gamma Emerald]

Could’ve picked She but It felt more in line with my avatar character
I waffle around on whether I want to use my preferred pronoun or play the “match the flavor” game

Yeah but do I actually call you "It" or not?

Is your avi not Link?

Lol that’s not Chain*, that’s Box!
*in the work my avatar is from, The Legend of Zelda appears as a cheap knock-off version known as Legend of Celida, and Link is called Chain.

[Gamma Emerald]

Lady, I think you should change your location to currently in a Rage

You dingus, that’s a memorial to LLD’s precious title

[Gamma Emerald]

@Varsoon: He said confirmed *in* LyLo, not claiming in LyLo, there's a difference, right?
You don't think Merlin/Swordholder works better as a hidden IC till the day before LyLo, as opposed to coming out in D2 where he becomes an obvious NK?

It's not confirmable.

An example from 3p LYLO.
Player 1: I'm Merlin and have the sword
Player 2: No, I'm Merlin and have the sword
Player 3: Oh no! This plan had an obvious hole in it! Who could have ever predicted it!

I don't love us trying to "solve" the game like it's a fucking math problem. What I've seen in other games when this happened was scum got to hide in mechanics talk all game instead of having to actually engage with other players.

oh and no thanks on hurt tags. I say you gladiate your scum reads. I joined this game because the mechanics were different. Let's keep it different.

this is a fun game because it gives over half the game the chance to be BP vig. Who doesn't want that power? I'm claiming the sword every time I can and I'm going to try to vig shit. If I die I die. I'm more interested in having a unique experience than I am in trying to game the setup to be something it wasn't designed to be.

Hold on a second, are you saying you think that something else is the optimal way to win the game but you don't like it and would rather play to have fun, or did I misinterpret this?

Okay I need to read back, like,

yesterday

, but I have a good idea of who might be scum from reading this now.

[Gamma Emerald]

Unless, you’re suggesting that anyone who has the sword must also attrmpt to vig? But since this is not a desperado role, that only results in dead townies, so having Merlin confirm Arthur after he already has the sword makes sense, doesn’t it?

If one person grabs the sword and never tries to shoot it, then arthur never gets ahold of it in the first place though

If they don't vig they're confirmed town, yes, which is useful in it's own right (in fact, if arthur never grabs the sword then we have, potentially, an additional confirmed town to narrow things down), BUT it also means we have less power to try to put the sword on other people

Wacky theory:
Kills happen before claiming right? So wouldn’t an attempted claim the same night a non-Arthur Town shoots get the sword? That could be a way to expedite the sword changing hands.

@FakeGod What happens if someone tries to claim when the sword is already claimed?

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay I need to read back, like, yesterday, but I have a good idea of who might be scum from reading this now.

ok gamma

Did I say it was you

[Gamma Emerald]

If Merlin knows that Arthur has claimed the sword, why shouldn’t they confirm it?

Because arthur ALREADY HAS THE SWORD and all merlin confirming doing is telling him to shoot it - something that they are likely to do within 1-2 nights anyway, and even if they don't shoot it it's /just/ a vig, I think I'd rather have an additional confirmed town hidden away

How does Merlin get confirmed without confirming Arthur?

I mean after Arthur's outed, they can only just claim to be Merlin. Premise being that scum wouldn't fakeclaim/counterclaim Merlin.

Ah fuck
I just realized a nasty scum strategy that could really send Town in a downward spiral
I’m NOT saying what it is because it’s something they possibly aren’t aware of.

[Gamma Emerald]

i'd consider scumhunting to be declaring reads, pushing people, analysis of player posts, etc
I don't mind the setup talk and ofc I agree we need a good strategy, but I feel it's going in circles (i was skimming at certain points so this could be wrong) and rather spammy.

I declared a townread on Nancy and DVa.
I'm "pushing" people to answer me through asking them questions.
There aren't enough posts to make a strong AI analysis on, anyway.
Scumlean on you for your weak shade of me not 'scumhunting', which is untrue even by your definitions.

It's not going in circles, I think it's useful, that it's spam is your opinion - which is prolly biased since you don't like mechanic discussions anyway.

This is town holy shit

[Gamma Emerald]

Ya'll are hard over-thinking this shit, which, imo, is what scum wants.
It's really fuckin' simple.

Everyone tries to claim sword N1.
Whoever gets it enjoys being BP and can claim if they need to confirm as IC if dueled.
If Merlin survives to D2, Merlin claims to become IC and, if he knows Arthur has the sword, he says so and Arthur keeps their mouth shut or
if he knows Arthur doesn't have the sword then he claims who Arthur is and boom
Town has 2 ICs on D2 and a secret BP IC or
Town has 1 IC on D2 and a secret BP Vig IC
If Non-confirmed-Arthur town gets the sword, they never attempt to vig with it because they are just going to shoot themselves in the foot 12 out of 14 times.

And that's it.
There's no more optimal play around it.
If you try to publicly gate who goes for the sword, you don't account for
1. Townies that disregard this shit
2. Scum having control of killing claimants/not
Basically playing around it as a public cop only works once and even then it's iffy.

Our goal should be to shut the fuck up and stop tilting who may or may not be Merlin and just scumhunt
There's no more point to discussing the Sword mechanics.

This...actually feels viable? Let’s break this down:
Everyone claims the sword - if we remove Merlin, who should avoid going for the sword in this strategy, there’s a 1/4 chance we get a dead mafia n1. That feels like nice odds to me? Someone tell me if a perfectly rand chance of hitting scum is bad. Of course this crumbles if Mafia don’t go for it, which would probably be the case here. So on further thought, not good at all.
We have a BP town who can claim if dueled - I feel like the issue here is promoting a random person getting the sword means a barely active player could get it. I definitely feel like having one person claim it is a good call, and especially LLD. LLD is concerned about paranoia right? Well the best way to deal with the likes of LLD, players with great influence as both alignments, is to have them claim it alone, if they flip scum woot, if they don’t we have an IC that can lead Town well.
Merlin always claims D2 - if my theory I posted is right this is bad. With a quick cycling of the sword we can effectively get it to Arthur faster, which makes Merlin staying hidden smarter so he can confirm when Arthur has the sword.
Non-Arthur with the sword should never use it - DUH

I think this was an honest effort but it’s pretty wrong.

[Gamma Emerald]

The issue Gamma is if everybody claims the Fallen don't have to bother, and therefore they never instant-die because of that

the Request for holly Excalibur is done via PM, so we don't know whom of the noble circle has requested to extract it from the rock, only that it has been claimed, and even than not by whom.

there’s a 1/4 chance we get a dead mafia n1.

There's 0% chance scum claim the sword Gamma don't shake my read on you

Fucking read further instead of knee-jerking

[Gamma Emerald]

He said in his next sentence, "Of course this crumbles if Maf don't go for it, which is the probable case"

Yeah it's just weird seeing Gamma spew out a weird theory only to immediately dismiss it tbh

That’s not my weird theory for fucks sake

[Gamma Emerald]

I'd personally challenge thee wielder if they are shitty enough. You don't get to keep the sword if you hurt the game.

This is some spicy shit but I don’t think it’s scum yet

[Gamma Emerald]

That’s not my weird theory for fucks sake

was that paragraph sarcasm?

That was stream-of-consciousness writing, it’s a thing.

[Gamma Emerald]

Here you go Fire chan

Spoiler:

Don't know if you're into this genre yet tho so let me know

Bro NCS is some good stuff

[Gamma Emerald]

I'd personally challenge thee wielder if they are shitty enough. You don't get to keep the sword if you hurt the game.

This is some spicy shit but I don’t think it’s scum yet

Are you going to think she's scum at a later date, then?

Elsa I don't even disagree with you, I'm just telling you it's not going to happen, or if it does happen it will be a miracle

Possibly? I’m just saying while it’s a hot take it’s nothing to grab a pitchfork over.

[Gamma Emerald]

... by itself.
Thought felt complete in my head

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Gamma is good candidate to look into, quick to jump on strategies such as Varsoon without providing ideas of their own.

Firebringer trying to get everybody to reveal who they thought Arthur was, as the Fallen would know 4 of those guesses were bogus that would give 13 decent guesses to work with, any guesses on themselves would be ignored.
Further, claims and bosting of high success rates is rediculas

Lady's opening post is calling somebody as a fallen knight, dishonoured and unworthy to the rightfull claim of Excalibur, Further Lady is openly willing to take Excalibur
Also calls at Auro for discussin mechanics (Meta-Auro does this lots)
Also gives claim that Nancy and UT are town, without explaination as to why, Auro and I cought the foul laggards doing this in game that just ended.
Lady actually gives many reasons why not to follow along with any plan that has been laid out!

Untrod Tripod also jumps out, wants the sword, willing to run anybody through with it nightly and doesn't care the risk.


Varsoon i believe is hasn't fallen from the nobility of the round table, his suggestive play is the same as the one we just completed.
Dva same pro noble feel based on previous game, same push and drive.


Personally at this point I would see Firebringer and Lady enter the ring as they seem to be going after each other anyhow.

with Gamma, Untrod and varsoon going for the sword since two have said they don't care what the rest of the council say they are going for the sword.

Do you really want me to go after any special swords? ♪

[Gamma Emerald]

Oro should I be scouting the playerlist for 'good at both town and scum, that is both hard to read and very strong to have as a town leader.' myself?

so Maria?

Frozen Angel is pretty good at both too

I forgot about Frozen Angel

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Gamma is good candidate to look into, quick to jump on strategies such as Varsoon without providing ideas of their own.

Firebringer trying to get everybody to reveal who they thought Arthur was, as the Fallen would know 4 of those guesses were bogus that would give 13 decent guesses to work with, any guesses on themselves would be ignored.
Further, claims and bosting of high success rates is rediculas

Lady's opening post is calling somebody as a fallen knight, dishonoured and unworthy to the rightfull claim of Excalibur, Further Lady is openly willing to take Excalibur
Also calls at Auro for discussin mechanics (Meta-Auro does this lots)
Also gives claim that Nancy and UT are town, without explaination as to why, Auro and I cought the foul laggards doing this in game that just ended.
Lady actually gives many reasons why not to follow along with any plan that has been laid out!

Untrod Tripod also jumps out, wants the sword, willing to run anybody through with it nightly and doesn't care the risk.


Varsoon i believe is hasn't fallen from the nobility of the round table, his suggestive play is the same as the one we just completed.
Dva same pro noble feel based on previous game, same push and drive.


Personally at this point I would see Firebringer and Lady enter the ring as they seem to be going after each other anyhow.

with Gamma, Untrod and varsoon going for the sword since two have said they don't care what the rest of the council say they are going for the sword.

Do you really want me to go after any special swords? ♪

Full seriousness, this is a very incorrect analysis of my play. How much of the game have you read Ver Idian Cleric?

[Gamma Emerald]

Unless, you’re suggesting that anyone who has the sword must also attrmpt to vig? But since this is not a desperado role, that only results in dead townies, so having Merlin confirm Arthur after he already has the sword makes sense, doesn’t it?

If one person grabs the sword and never tries to shoot it, then arthur never gets ahold of it in the first place though

If they don't vig they're confirmed town, yes, which is useful in it's own right (in fact, if arthur never grabs the sword then we have, potentially, an additional confirmed town to narrow things down), BUT it also means we have less power to try to put the sword on other people

Wacky theory:
Kills happen before claiming right? So wouldn’t an attempted claim the same night a non-Arthur Town shoots get the sword? That could be a way to expedite the sword changing hands.

@FakeGod What happens if someone tries to claim when the sword is already claimed?

They can’t. Once claimed, can never be unclaimed, unless the claimant dies, I think.

That’s not what I asked
I was thinking
X gets the sword n1
Y claims n2, X tries to use it n2
Does Y get the sword?

[Gamma Emerald]

If you are not the rightful owner of the sword, you will die instead of your target when you try to vig someone.

If the player who has the Excalibur dies, then it becomes publicly unclaimed again. You cannot willingly unclaim the sword.

Merlin cannot just outright say who Arthur is, because Mafia Nightkill resolves before the claiming of the sword.

unless the vig resolves at a different time than the mafia kill, the sword would be unclaimed at the claiming phase if the holder died that night.

That’s what I’m thinking, but I want to verify it

[Gamma Emerald]

Except for her own admission that she finds it a lot harder as scum to be non-serious.

Except this is literally something I have never said

Erm what?
My eyes are kinda glazing over from this debate btw

[Gamma Emerald]

@Something_Smart:

Spoiler: Mechanics talk, again

For one, I feel that *for* the suicides to work as copping mechanisms, you need 100% town cohesion/control on who takes the sword. Even *one* town player not following this makes the sword claimed, which destroys its copping ability. I think it's apparent already that a few town are going to try and claim it no matter what, so unless we have a very convincing plan in the first place with this, we won't have town cohesion anyway.

We also have to remember that this kind of plan requires commitment over the days, in that people shouldn't go "Oh I'm better than the rest, I'll save the BP for myself" anyway. The extreme amounts of cohesion and commitment required makes this hard. Although if we can find a mathematically proven strategy to increase town win chances assuming they can follow a plan, it's worthwhile to try and coax town to co-operate.

That apart, the best strategy right now, to me is:
1. Propose and achieve consensus on following a gladiate policy of top hurt players claiming role, announcing intent to gladiate someone, and the other claiming role. Policy vote if not followed. (Achievable)
2. Everyone (except Merlin) tries to get the sword, so the scum doesn't hone in on who could have it. (Doesn't even matter if people don't try)
3. Merlin remains quiet unless pushed to gladiate or about to be gladiated by someone, or Arthur is. Likewise for Swordholder.
4. Hypoclaim on D2 on Arthur. (Achievable)
5. Merlin and Swordholder out on the day before LyLo. If CC'd, lynch to check. If not, great.

One question is: Is an Arthur hypoclaim more useful in D1, considering the 1/13 chance Merlin gets NK'd? (3/13 if he's pushed to a gladiate and outs himself)

What do you think of this?

You are right; if anyone takes the sword with intent to be BP, it disrupts the "use sword as a cop" plan. I think the only person who expressed interest in doing so is LLD, and she seems like she'd probably agree not to do it if it interfered with the plan.

I think this plan can be improved by letting everyone pick whether they go for the sword; probably not everyone will want to be BP and confirmable, if they're either likely to be townread or unlikely to be killed.

I also think it might be improved by introducing some more uncertainty into Merlin/Arthur. Obviously we need to strike a balance between making sure town knows what to do if Merlin dies versus not letting scum figure out who Merlin is too easily. I'm considering if it might be better to hypoclaim two potential Arthurs. That I think would fit better with a plan of using the sword as a cop, but it's still a possibility.

Mild town points for mirror tell

[Gamma Emerald]

HURT: UT
Wanted to talk about this during catch-up but I’m not focused enough to get through rn so I’ll just do this now
The post by Dunnstral I quoted saying I had a good idea of someone who could be scum, I was referring to UT. In BoR, FakeGod made a comment post-game about how he meant for town to use the desperadoes optimally when doing balance. So for UT to argue against that concept is a massive scum sign.

[Gamma Emerald]

i think UT has by far the most hurts.

So?
Also pagetop

[Gamma Emerald]

You’d better respond sometime though

[Gamma Emerald]

How is there more value in having a pointless stealth IC than there is in townclearing the next day's lynch or mislynch?

And you are ignoring the possibility that the *next consensus scumread is scum* in which case we get a GUILTY and the sword is unclaimed and then we get to use the test again.

Do you not get that?

You guys are not playing toward best case scenario.

Best case scenario:
We force top two scumreads to gladiate
The winner is forced to claim sword
But they're scum so they don't and it remains unclaimed
Then we lynch them and rinse, repeat the next day

Like you all are thinking only of sword giving us an IC but it's *way more valuable* as having the potential to give us guilties

Effectively it gives us the chance to have a public daycop and a lynch each day phase

So no, "everyone claims the sword" is a shit plan

So here’s the counter plan Auro mentioned
I’ll wait to pass final judgement but this looks better yeah. I feel like there’s some sort of offset between the two that makes judging them as is a bad idea though. That probably makes no sense but if anything comes of it, then it should make more sense.

[Gamma Emerald]

Shortens the lynch pool, nothing wrong with it.
But I'm of the mind that more ICs early is better than not having them.
Regardless, Merlin has to claim if survived to D2 due to Arthur info not flipping on Merlin's death; so long as both are in setup killing Merlin before claim wipes 2 ICs off the map.

@DVa: If we consensus catch two scum on D1 in this game then scum have already fucking lost.

We’ll get to the “we got two scum” thing when we get there, as I see that as impeccably rare.

[Gamma Emerald]

@Dunn: Except it fuckin' confirms them as ICs what don't you understand about how IC works

@Auro: Setup Spec doesn't help us do very much here and just informs the scum kill, imo. I think Cakez is more likely town for wanting the game to move away from it. We've got like 10 pages of shit that should be obvious.

@DVa: Or more realistically understanding that it's fucking hard to reign in 13 other jackasses and not hinging an entire plan around it.
Stop shading me with that ish.
HURT: DVa

So despite being alright with her plan you go apeshit at DVa for that?

[Gamma Emerald]

I want 3 mod-confirmed clears with a hidden Bulletproof rather than a single maybe-cop that fails if we don't hit double scum with it OR if a single town isn't on board with the plan.
In fact, fuck you, I'm going for the sword no matter what you say, so your plan can eat shit and you can die.

That’s where you’re wrong
It’s not single use cop
Also are you still going for the sword?

[Gamma Emerald]

@Gamma: It's only a multiple-use cop if a non-arthur role gets the sword and suicides with it. Odd-night non-loyal telegraphed-in-thread vigilante isn't cop no matter what way you want to spin it.
I'm going for the sword no matter what.

Lol ok
And what’s your plan afterwards?

[Gamma Emerald]

In BoR, FakeGod made a comment post-game about how he meant for town to use the desperadoes optimally when doing balance. So for UT to argue against that concept is a massive scum sign.

Ah yes, remember when I did that point by point refutation of a thing from a different game that I wasn't in

Liar. You were in that game, no matter if you weren’t in it the whole time. I would figure you’d read the postgame but maybe you really don’t care about how games you didn’t bother to finish went. Either way it’s still a shit argument and is rather suspect.

[Gamma Emerald]

My countdown to challenging Lady begins now.

(expired on 2018-11-29 01:09:01)

Why not UT, who I’m pretty sure has more hurts?

[Gamma Emerald]

Tbh I’m fine with Varsoon going for the sword
I’d honestly rather we have 2 going for it so scum can’t just snipe the claimant

[Gamma Emerald]

HEAL: Everyone
HURT: Something Smart

Since is it Scenario 1, there is literally no reason to try to push for there to be a smaller pool of players claiming Excalibur unless you are scum and want to make it easier to kill the player who would have gotten it.

Yeah I’m thinking I’m favoring the Everyone Claim plan
I still feel like there’s some things needing to be hammered out with it though

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't know how I'm going to vote. It will probably come down to which I am more afraid of: scum-LLD or town-you.

I don't see why you should expect me to determine this before the challenge.

The fuck?

[Gamma Emerald]

as a town player, you have as much a chance of being Arthur as anyone else so I can't think of any compelling reason why you shouldn't try

how do you know im town, sir?

what if i'm scum?

That’s not what he said

[Gamma Emerald]

i am starting to think lld is town just by this huge consensus that she is scum.
such bad reasoning.

someone needs to tell me that is bad.

I don’t see why it’s bad

[Gamma Emerald]

You answered it already
That’s still kinda nasty, town!Elsa can be a decent boon to town imo

[Gamma Emerald]

i think UT has by far the most hurts.

So?
Also pagetop

I am going to feign i don't understand the purpose of ur question because ur question is wasting my brain power when i am tired.

You’d better respond sometime though

Still want this fyi

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh boy am I gonna have to fight this obv as hell fake ate. It's like LLD is sitting behind her comp going. "what best fits here to get people to vote with me given I have no good arguments to use vs maria"
pedit: But I don't have an album of gifs for Riza yet

Yeah btw what is ur avi from

[Gamma Emerald]

Your avi is a red bird so closest I can think of is like a red bird pokemon but having a hard time finding good gifs for them

maybe moltres?

It looks like something in Okami, or a similar style. It's very pretty,

It is very Vermillion Bird.

Ver Million Bird?

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah I’m thinking this “LLD would or wouldn’t win in X scenario and that’s why she’s scum/town for this” arguments are lame, I’d rather just read her

[Gamma Emerald]

HURT: UT
Wanted to talk about this during catch-up but I’m not focused enough to get through rn so I’ll just do this now
The post by Dunnstral I quoted saying I had a good idea of someone who could be scum, I was referring to UT. In BoR, FakeGod made a comment post-game about how he meant for town to use the desperadoes optimally when doing balance. So for UT to argue against that concept is a massive scum sign.

He wasn't in that game so this reasoning only holds for saying it's a bad idea

Didn’t I already disprove that to you

[Gamma Emerald]

Guess not

[Gamma Emerald]

HURT: UT
Wanted to talk about this during catch-up but I’m not focused enough to get through rn so I’ll just do this now
The post by Dunnstral I quoted saying I had a good idea of someone who could be scum, I was referring to UT. In BoR, FakeGod made a comment post-game about how he meant for town to use the desperadoes optimally when doing balance. So for UT to argue against that concept is a massive scum sign.

He wasn't in that game so this reasoning only holds for saying it's a bad idea

Didn’t I already disprove that to you

You were asking questions on things from post ~250 when we were in the 900's in current posts so I'm not sure why you're taking this stance with me now

Alright you wanna play hardball we’ll play hardball. I posted that I realized I was wrong, but you decided to discredit me by attacking my working towards catching up. I’m gladiating you tomorrow.

[Gamma Emerald]

Hmm don’t like how Dunn built up to that vote

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't care what you don't like, you can't vote for me right now

Ahaha this is such scum
VOTE: MariaR
I’m not voting with Dunn

[Gamma Emerald]

Alright you wanna play hardball we’ll play hardball. I posted that I realized I was wrong, but you decided to discredit me by attacking my working towards catching up. I’m gladiating you tomorrow.

mmm spicy

Where were you hiding this Gamma during Witches Ball?

I didn’t have anyone trying to take cheap shots at me that game.

[Gamma Emerald]

You don't think Dunn would bus d1?

Maybe? I think my last time playing with Scumstral was Terror in the City.

[Gamma Emerald]

HURT: UT
Wanted to talk about this during catch-up but I’m not focused enough to get through rn so I’ll just do this now
The post by Dunnstral I quoted saying I had a good idea of someone who could be scum, I was referring to UT. In BoR, FakeGod made a comment post-game about how he meant for town to use the desperadoes optimally when doing balance. So for UT to argue against that concept is a massive scum sign.

He wasn't in that game so this reasoning only holds for saying it's a bad idea

Didn’t I already disprove that to you

You were asking questions on things from post ~250 when we were in the 900's in current posts so I'm not sure why you're taking this stance with me now

Alright you wanna play hardball we’ll play hardball. I posted that I realized I was wrong, but you decided to discredit me by attacking my working towards catching up. I’m gladiating you tomorrow.

Not sure what you're talking about

I feel like you were complaining about me responding to past things instead of current ones when it's something I've seen you do this game

I don't know how that escalates to "I'm gladiating you tomorrow"

That’s not what that was at all
I was thinking I’d proven UT was in BoR to you already, then I checked your posts and realized your thread reading was strictly linear til then

[Gamma Emerald]

It's just a bad post in general, not just because it's wrong, but because I can't figure out HOW he could arrive at that conclusion looking at only posts in this thread

Man, it's almost as if I have experience with LLD outside this game.

Actually now that I critically analyzed Dunn’s point on SS that makes some sense

[Gamma Emerald]

Wait are we doing the “one person takes the sword” thing again?

[Gamma Emerald]

Also @gamma
Do you actually SR Maria or is it just a fuck you to Dunn?

It’s closer to a fuck you vote but I do feel like his lead-in to the LLD vote was shady

[Gamma Emerald]

Maria just fucking do it

[Gamma Emerald]

Because more then half of his time was spent arguing about the fundamentals with Varsoon and we literally had to tear him out the conversation with him to have him think elsawhere.

So he’s probably a WIFOM kill.

[Gamma Emerald]

Wrong words fuck
I mean low info

[Gamma Emerald]

I've changed my mind, Maria is scum here

Who asked?
I mean I did, but only internally.

[Gamma Emerald]

Elsa Jay is Mei
Dunnstal is Reinhardt
Gamma Emerald is Roadhog
Firebringer is Ana
Nancy is Tracer

can i be tracer?

I’m already Tracer

[Gamma Emerald]

What do you think about my idea? Where Maria (and nobody else) claims the sword if LLD flips scum?

If this is the plan I refuse to go for the sword.

Like the whole point of me going for the sword is so I live ya know? If I die the point is moot

w/e do I rly have a choice I'll just die either by scum nk or by town lynch zz

I won't go for the sword...or maybe I will we'll make scum guess

I'm not doing it just so I can be a nk I rather play the game ty.

Tbf Dunn, this makes total sense. Why does scum!Maria say she’s not going for the sword, as opposed to making excuses for not being the one to claim it. Because FG, said that the potential swordclaimer can be NK’d before they can hypothetically become bp right?

Scum maria can't gaurantee that town goes for the sword

It looked like UT and varsoon were backing off it at eod

So if it lays there unclaimed after she said she'd go for it she's outted

Day 2

Excalibur is

claimed.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2018-12-09 22:00:00)

Yeah, but there was a big frenzy to get someone to claim it
Maria freaking out did ping me as well

[Gamma Emerald]

Going back to reading what I missed from D1 because I’m kinda out of it rn

now this is my kind of useless fight

Ew? Why post this

[Gamma Emerald]

@nancy because I'm trying to ferret out scumreads from people as an alternative to the ongoing "plan" battle and you're one of those people arguing

I like this though

[Gamma Emerald]

Wow I was closer to done than I thought
Also I thought about what I want to happen today, and I’m thinking Dunn should gladiate MariaR
HURT: Dunnstral
HURT WITH A BLADE: MariaR

[Gamma Emerald]

Problem is his activity looks like that of scum with MariaR who realized that MariaR was gonna be suspected heavily and decided to hardbus

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah it does
During the D1 duel he was clearly on Maria’s side, now he just flips his read? Where’s the conviction?

[Gamma Emerald]

I prefer the winky face

[Gamma Emerald]

I haven’t really scrutinized MariaR like that yet
I can try I guess

[Gamma Emerald]

Seems we’ve got a lot of hurts for Kokichi
Who’s stepping up to bat

[Gamma Emerald]

I don’t disagree
But what’s the relevance?

[Gamma Emerald]

Nah. Not claiming Arthur.

Can you at least SOFT it so we might know who it could be?

[Gamma Emerald]

i challenge Maria to a duel

Do u know who ur talking to?

Ho boy

[Gamma Emerald]

Shouldn't we see where people want to vote before we answer questions like that.

Bad post

[Gamma Emerald]

I hard claim holding the sword.

I also cc that claim

Ok so like what do you ACTUALLY claim Fire
Cos if ur just CCing for lols that’s really fucking hurting the game and I will lynch you for it

[Gamma Emerald]

Unfortunately for Maria and whoever the fuck the real Merlin is, I'm actually the one who pulled the sword.

VOTE: Maria

Was hoping you could somehow survive 2 gladiates in a row, gal. A lie is a lie, though, and you gotta perish for it.

Yeah Fire it’s now or never, come clean or die.

[Gamma Emerald]

You're full of shit.
I'm Merlin.
Elsa Jay is Arthur.
Maria R has the sword.

I faked hard at grabbing the sword N1 to throw scum off my scent and not kill me N1.

I’m Spartacus!
On a serious note this is 4 CCs of Merlin at this point? They can’t all be Merlin but also it would be super ballsy for a bunch of scum to try this. So either Town are trying to cover and just making things worse or just being stupid.

[Gamma Emerald]

UT has the sword

I’m fucking done with everything. Will the real Merlin please stand up for fucks sake

[Gamma Emerald]

Unfortunately for Maria and whoever the fuck the real Merlin is, I'm actually the one who pulled the sword.

VOTE: Maria

Was hoping you could somehow survive 2 gladiates in a row, gal. A lie is a lie, though, and you gotta perish for it.

Yeah Fire it’s now or never, come clean or die.

What does this post have to do with Fire?

Since Fire CCed having the sword and another sword claim came up I was giving him a chance to step out. Apparently everyone else decided to take the confusion up to eleven though.

[Gamma Emerald]

I love BLEACH
Maybe I should run a series of BLEACH games
now that the manga is over.

Doooo iiiiit

[Gamma Emerald]

No. Because maybe Arthur already has the sword

And what if he doesn’t?

[Gamma Emerald]

Unfortunately for Maria and whoever the fuck the real Merlin is, I'm actually the one who pulled the sword.

VOTE: Maria

Was hoping you could somehow survive 2 gladiates in a row, gal. A lie is a lie, though, and you gotta perish for it.

I believe you.

VOTE: Maria

Maria’s swordclaim makes 0 sense with her EOD 1 posts.

^this = what I’m at rn

[Gamma Emerald]

My 2 cents:
I don’t like how Maria is blistering about blacklisting people. It’s a bit egotistical I feel, acting like the threat of being blacklisted has some sort of impact on how people will treat you and abusing that

[Gamma Emerald]

blustering*

[Gamma Emerald]

Tbh despite my desire to force Kokichi in line if he is Merlin his play is honestly fine and it actually makes sense if he is

[Gamma Emerald]

It's almost as if it's a different thing that I'm seeing than in that game

You’d be well served to explain if that’s the case

[Gamma Emerald]

not really

a reaction to a flip is "not really" different from day 1 behavior?

It's almost as if it's a different thing that I'm seeing than in that game

You’d be well served to explain if that’s the case

why? he's not up for a lynch at the moment. it'd just be distracting from the choice we have to make right now.

I don’t like it but that is fair

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh NVM. Claimed Merlin cos he was gonna be the lunch candidate.

I hardclaim Merlin. Anyone who doesnt retract after this post. needs to be shot @person with the sword.

Arthur has the sword btw.

At this point I’m ready to VOTE: no lynch and let this resolve at night
Anyone else agree?

[Gamma Emerald]

Maria would never use the ATE of threatening to blacklist someone if she was scum (if so I would lose a lot of respect for her) unless RC is playing on her account. Lol

Honestly that loses respect as any alignment

[Gamma Emerald]

Yawn.
I’ll deal with any consequences when this resolves. Until then those threats mean nothing to me.

[Gamma Emerald]

Ok. Shoot gamma @ Arthur

Fucking do it. I’d rather Arthur know they are Arthur than stay in the game. Plus then I don’t have to sort through this shit-mire and can see how upset FakeGod is at how sub-optimally everyone is playing his game

[Gamma Emerald]

I don’t know
But he ranted about how town played BoR badly so I figure he’s probably doing the same (unless we somehow hit the correct path which I fount with the current fustercluck).

[Gamma Emerald]

nk15 post wasn't bad but...how the fuck did he know all that shit given he just replaced in is my question

Now that I’m out of my “fuck everything” state I think this is a good point
I caught scum!Wisdom with this exact thing in a kinda old game so I think we may be onto something.

[Gamma Emerald]

no lyching solves nothing and just has the same issues going into tomorrow, only change is that i'm dead. anyone asking for a nl is scum or not playing optimally. Fire still has a chance to flip scum.

If you die and flip Merlin that proves Arthur has the sword which I’m fine with
If you don’t flip Merlin that means it among the others which means more work but it’s a little cleaner then
So why is your Death bad, especially if you’re Merlin?

[Gamma Emerald]

Btw I'm not Merlin.

Then I think you're the correct lunch tomorrow.
What have you achieved by your fakeclaim, Kokichi Oma?

Ok. In that case I'm Merlin again

lol now we lynch Kokichi D3 no matter what

[Gamma Emerald]

Lol no one is engaging me, have fun throwing

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Firebringer
No one has seriously claimed that Fire was anything important so I’m doing this because no one thinks critically here

[Gamma Emerald]

No one has seriously claimed that Fire was anything important so I’m doing this because no one thinks critically here

vs. Maria who suddenly everyone wants to fakeclaim to protect?

Do you think Fire is scum or are you just compromising on a 'safe mislynch'?

I was voting no lynch but no one wants the ACTUALLY safer option so I’m taking to damage control option

[Gamma Emerald]

I was voting no lynch but no one wants the ACTUALLY safer option so I’m taking to damage control option

Damage control is lynching Maria

Lynch Fire + Maria suicides = 2 dead town, sword unusable another day

Lynch maria = 1 dead town, sword claimed tonight, we get another inno tomorrow and can actually confirm the merlin claim

But no one is saying Fire is Arthur

[Gamma Emerald]

Isn’t Alchemist saying that

[Gamma Emerald]

actually 2 people said i was Arthur.

Quote then.

[Gamma Emerald]

actually 2 people said i was Arthur.

Quote then.

go read the thread u lazy bum.

Nah. Not doing your job for you.

[Gamma Emerald]

I am playing the game. You made a statement, it’s your job to back it up. Burden of proof, buddy.

[Gamma Emerald]

Firebringer is Arthur

no I am arthur

I'm Cho'Gath

I doubt the legitimacy of that claim.

[Gamma Emerald]

That also shifts my from from the “compromise” area to the “actual scumread” area for cherry picking evidence.

[Gamma Emerald]

That also shifts my from from the “compromise” area to the “actual scumread” area for cherry picking evidence.

do you know what cherry picking is gamma?

Yes. It’s selectively presenting evidence to fit your narrative. You only presented the evidence that fit your claim of possibly being Arthur. I located evidence that was on the same page that discredited your claim. The fact you ignored when initially presenting means you cherry picked.

[Gamma Emerald]

i am not saying either claim is true.
i don't believe either.

i was just saying the claim no one has said i was Arthur is false.
That is all.

and i think Dva is right that is just irrelevant to it since no claim on Maria is also credible. Nor does it matter in my eyes how many people say she is Arthur or has the sword.

Cause all of them lost credibility. You want to argue that?

There’s “lack of credibility” and then there’s “clearly a joke claim”.

[Gamma Emerald]

i can take ur claim as serious and not believe it separately than the whole sleuth of people now i am dismissing any claims they give because they have faked too much for them to be taken seriously.

So because X was faking W Y and Z lose credibility? You’re fucking idiotic if that’s how your brain works.

[Gamma Emerald]

I would nl if I didn't think fire would just insta duel me again giving scum a free nk.

Dw if Kokichi lives and no one feasibly dies to Arthur I’m flash gladiating Kokichi D3

[Gamma Emerald]

Nancy or DVa should be shot. Anything either of you want to say before Arthur shoots you?

What happened to shooting me?

[Gamma Emerald]

No one has seriously claimed that Fire was anything important so I’m doing this because no one thinks critically here

vs. Maria who suddenly everyone wants to fakeclaim to protect?

Do you think Fire is scum or are you just compromising on a 'safe mislynch'?

I was voting no lynch but no one wants the ACTUALLY safer option so I’m taking to damage control option

Vote, no lynch. Fire is 99.999% flipping town here.

No one else wants to. God I hate ms towns sometimes.

[Gamma Emerald]

That also shifts my from from the “compromise” area to the “actual scumread” area for cherry picking evidence.

do you know what cherry picking is gamma?

Yes. It’s selectively presenting evidence to fit your narrative. You only presented the evidence that fit your claim of possibly being Arthur. I located evidence that was on the same page that discredited your claim. The fact you ignored when initially presenting means you cherry picked.

i didn't anywhere claim to be arthur, gamma.

Not the point, Arthur isn’t informed they’re Arthur so no point. No one seemed to claiming you are Arthur (though iirc Varsoon just posted something to the contrary) so that made you a better option
But again, no lynching let’s people more informed make the decision

[Gamma Emerald]

That also shifts my from from the “compromise” area to the “actual scumread” area for cherry picking evidence.

do you know what cherry picking is gamma?

Yes. It’s selectively presenting evidence to fit your narrative. You only presented the evidence that fit your claim of possibly being Arthur. I located evidence that was on the same page that discredited your claim. The fact you ignored when initially presenting means you cherry picked.

i didn't anywhere claim to be arthur, gamma.

like god i don't know how much simpler i can make this out to be.

lets back up gamma because theres some stupid miscommunication happening here and you aren't even attempting to bridge it.

You said: "No has claimed firebringer is arthur". The point of you saying that was nobody has made a serious claim that i am arthur and that the potential of me being arthur is low. [I am not disputing that, but you never said that]

I was focusing on what you said which is no one claimed i was arthur which was false.

If you want to have some stupid straw man argument with someone who thinks UT or NK15 claims of me being arthur are legitimate go find them. I am not arguing that shit.

In summary shut the hell up.

I never said serious claim because that was the implication. Not my fault you missed the subtext.
If you’re not disputing my point, there’s no real reason for me not to vote you right?
I’d say I like your olive branch but you telling me to shut up killed that.

[Gamma Emerald]

And IIRC, amidst all the fakeclaims, *no one* said Jay had the sword -- this means Jay's claim is pretty probably fake, which means he's scum.

*Ignored Varsoon vehemently saying I'm Auther and Kokichi's claim matching up with mine*

*Somebody's aiming for a bad time*

Varsoon also said MariaR had the sword.
So either Merlin!Varsoon is lying, or Varsoon isn't Merlin FYPOV.
Which is it?

Plus claiming Kokichi’s claim backs her up when Kokichi claims Arthur has the sword

[Gamma Emerald]

"One of me, Maria is lying. Her flip will tell us who. Firebringer is not part of this tho, so I want him killed."

I think this is scum!Jay screwing around after I pointed out the logical inconsistency.

Yeah
I’m going for Elsa instead of Kokichi D3 if we NL today

[Gamma Emerald]

Well arent you gonna look horrible when you die from doing gladitorial combat.

Lady challenged. Lady died. Fire challenged. Looks like fire dies.

Let's make it 3/3, fiendish knight. On the honor of the kingdom, I shall vanquish you.

Lol you think that’ll continue when you’re obvscum? Nice fearmongwring, but no one’ll buy it

[Gamma Emerald]

My running theory is dunnstral is town has the sword and is hard defending maria because he truly misguided believes she is town.

And usually i would ask dunny to come out and completely tell me the truth regarding this, but I can't rely on what he says.

This is very frustrating.

Also I was serious earlier when I said people don't listen to my MariaR read - She literally has the sword and is mod confirmed and people are theorizing situations where I'm biased and wrong on my read on her - then they have the audacity to say that their own read on her would be better than mine in that situation

Mod confirmed HOW?

[Gamma Emerald]

Because that defeats the purpose of all this mayhem I'm causing if I stab her.

My chaos has reason behind it.

Or, better theory:
Elsa is scum and doesn’t want to be caught lying

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah she asserted that could be the case
But ahe’s trying to play to two people’s claims at once. That’s not acceptable.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: No lynch
This brings no lynch to 5 voters

[Gamma Emerald]

No lynching forces scum to take initiative, which prolly reveals a lot about who they might be

[Gamma Emerald]

What? No lunching only lets them pick us off one by one through night kills, at least with lunches we could hit scum. O.o
I don't exactly follow your logic here.

Not EVERY DAY dummy. Just for today when we have all this confusion.

[Gamma Emerald]

What? No lunching only lets them pick us off one by one through night kills, at least with lunches we could hit scum. O.o
I don't exactly follow your logic here.

Not EVERY DAY dummy. Just for today when we have all this confusion.

So you're thinking scum would take initiative in the next 14 hours if we're all voting to No Lunch? I still don't follow, sorray

They’d have to make a move at night.
It may seem counterintuitive but their kill can say a lot about who is lying and who is telling the truth

[Gamma Emerald]

JAY DOESNT HAVE SWORD. LYNCH FIRE

So the only other person claiming to have the sword iirc is Maria
Is this who it is?

[Gamma Emerald]

What? No lunching only lets them pick us off one by one through night kills, at least with lunches we could hit scum. O.o
I don't exactly follow your logic here.

Not EVERY DAY dummy. Just for today when we have all this confusion.

So you're thinking scum would take initiative in the next 14 hours if we're all voting to No Lunch? I still don't follow, sorray

They’d have to make a move at night.
It may seem counterintuitive but their kill can say a lot about who is lying and who is telling the truth

They have to make a move at night regardless of Fire's lunch. How would keeping Fire now be of any benefit?

Because we don’t know anything rn. Scum do, not everything but enough that their decisions can be telling
Moving the white knight and then moving him back is totally acceptable in chess, and I count thus move as similar

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes. Vote fire

And it took you this long to say this why?

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes. Vote fire

And it took you this long to say this why?

I said it earlier. Maybe you missed it

I think he means you saying Jay has the sword *shrug*
What matters is that no one said Fire has the sword, rn

He said MARIA has the sword
I’m asking why he kept refusing to state such until now
Also has anyone

actually

cased Fire?

[Gamma Emerald]

Quote it.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma if we no lynch you realize that fire will do the same thing tomorrow right

Not if someone gladiators Elsa first

[Gamma Emerald]

Ok I see it now
Still want to know if anyone has actually cased fire

[Gamma Emerald]

@Gamma: What's your read on Fire? Town/null/scum?
If null, you should vote for him regardless of a case IMO

Maybe I will actually, but I want to see if a case exists before I do vote to evaluate the wagon
Also, I don’t want any hammers until Elsa posts again unless it’s <4 hours to deadline

[Gamma Emerald]

A: "Fire, a couple questions"
F: "I don't know, I don't care"
A: "How is this town? Vote: Fire"
F: "Frankly these are dumb questions to sort me"
F: "I'm offended you call me scummy"
F: "You didn't use my answer to sort me"
F: "Auro is scummy, do an ISO blah blah"

Looks a lot more scummy than towny to me. I seriously doubt a no lunch is better than lunching Fire.

I think this interaction, plus his bad reads list, is enough reason to vote him.

What’s the readlist he made? I don’t need an exact quote, just a quick list

[Gamma Emerald]

Hm...

[Gamma Emerald]

I might. I have something I might like to present. I want to do it in proper fashion though.

[Gamma Emerald]

Ok Maria has the sword. I wanted to see what everyone's reactions would be. Lynch fire

i just realized i have a controversial opinion that chara might be scum.

so my list is looking
{Dva, Dunnstral}
{Jay, Varsoon}
{Nancy, Gamma Emerald}
{UT, Cakez, PenguinPower, Not Known15} <--null
{Auror, Chara}
{Kokichi, Maria}

okay replace gamma with kokichi and we get a real good scum list

Okay so I had these out of order in my head, I thought the two quoted fire posted were in reverse order
So while my initial bust is invalid, I have a question for Fire: why are Elsa and Varsoon/Alchemist and UT, who would probably be Arthur and Merlin if it’s not Kokichi and Maria, not top tier for you?

[Gamma Emerald]

Out what

[Gamma Emerald]

So Arthur is confirmed to have the sword.

[Gamma Emerald]

So I assume Maria shot Elsa?

[Gamma Emerald]

I mean that means it’s most likely Kokichi who’s Merlin right? Cos he was right about Maria having the sword and being Arthur
So uhh, wanna explain yourself Varsoon? Alch too

[Gamma Emerald]

So I assume Maria shot Elsa?

Why do you say elsa?

Cos Elsa claimed to have the sword
So that was a direct CC there

[Gamma Emerald]

Yeah, my thinking went like this
Two town died - either non-Arthur tried and failed to attack or Arthur succeeded at attacking
Excalibur still claimed - unless weird fuckery, Arthur has it
Previous questioning of setup info - no room for fuckery
Thus, Arthur has the sword and used it. A proof in three parts, a perfect syllogism!

[Gamma Emerald]

Non-Arthur couldn't have failed because sword is still claimed.

Lol you didn’t read that correctly
That was eliminated in that step

[Gamma Emerald]

Nah I can see why you got that
I didn’t explicitly mention it

[Gamma Emerald]

FYI despite PP lurking in a recent scumgame I don’t think their lurking here is scum indicate, just IRL commitment indicative

[Gamma Emerald]

Why would scum try to kill Elsa if they thought she was Arthur unless they thought she didn’t have the sword?
Contrary to most time I ask this question, I think Nancy is right, but there’s a lot more to be mined from this.

[Gamma Emerald]

Varsoon’s claim was that Elsa was Arthur and MariaR had the sword, right?

[Gamma Emerald]

Bear in mind Alchemist also claimed Merlin.

[Gamma Emerald]

Dunnstral
idiot changed his avatar and now I’m mixing him up with someone else

[Gamma Emerald]

I don’t recall you retracting, but in that case things might be a lot easier to work through here

[Gamma Emerald]

i agree with Cakez. this game feels like mostly inactive/passive scum. i recall a lot of town fighting town over claims.

also i was going to post a few things from Gamma that felt very suspect until i realized he's town. so that's... well, it's something, at the very least.

Wait what? Why are you certain I'm town now?

[Gamma Emerald]

I mean he's not that wrong but you were very adamant that it was maria towards the end so that pretty much clear up the remaining haze from you

[Gamma Emerald]

nicetry.jpeg

[Gamma Emerald]

What's everyone's current V/LA status?

What

[Gamma Emerald]

Well there nothing to really argue about

[Gamma Emerald]

why are you responding to yourself like that
that is actually fucking with my head

[Gamma Emerald]

wtf why are you lying

[Gamma Emerald]

And you didn’t graduate Kokichi whhyyyyy?

[Gamma Emerald]

Maria isnt Arthur lol

Maria said she was going to kill DVa.

I'm merlin. I'm pretty sure I know who has the damn sword right now.

PRETTY SURE? How are you not COMPLETELY SURE?

[Gamma Emerald]

?

[Gamma Emerald]

Idk rn
I wanna look at who was on the lynch wagons soon

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually not as much
Forgot we got a scumflip yesterdey for a second
Still a good idea tbh

[Gamma Emerald]

aren't there three scum left, not 2?

i'll gladiate as soon as i hear from Gamma.

What’s up?

[Gamma Emerald]

I think you should let UT do his thing first

[Gamma Emerald]

Because I want him to take initiative.

[Gamma Emerald]

Kokichi/Maria are mechanically confitown.

I hardclaim that Maria isnt Arthur. So if I die, dont think shes conf town cause shes not.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: UT
I’d say wait for anyone to bring something else up but there’s been time for that

[Gamma Emerald]

I’m thinking 1 of 2 things
>Kokichi is Arthur and scum tried to shoot Maria expecting failure and MyLo
Or
>Kokichi is scum and they somehow figured this shit out

[Gamma Emerald]

Here’s my tinfoil theory. Scum figured out Maria was really Merlin and is trying to frame Kokichi for it but it’s blatantly obvious that Maria knew he was Merlin, or she 100% would have exposed him

So, scum might be someone who wanted to get him mislynched and kill me, the next obvtown tonight.

So, who, figured it out? That’s likely scum.

But It’s not hard, we remove us from the pile and you then have Dunn, Gamma and Penguin and Chara, right?

So,we force 2 of those 4 to gladiate today.

HURT: Penguin

Why remove you+Varsoon?

[Gamma Emerald]

I actually think scum didnt know Maria was Merlin. And killed her thinking dunn was Arthur and I was Merlin.

So, maybe Pengin and Gamma, then?

I was damn sure Kokichi was Merlin and Maria was Arthur. And don’t try to argue someone else took over because I’ve backed down on pushing my preferred kill in the past and it has worked out poorly.

[Gamma Emerald]

If I had my way right now:
Smart/LLD would be dueling
winner goes for the sword along with Dva or UT.

Does this mean you're scumreading me Maria?

I could see you flipping scum yes but I would rather see you go for the sword then dual.

I find it interesting you want me to duel day 1. I think that seems strictly suboptimal, don't you?

I think you're going to be pushed regardless if you're scum or not. If you win the dual you go for the sword. If you flip people lose the excuse of pushing you.

And this was really weird coming from you - she's going to be pushed so might as well lynch her anyway? What? There's NO WAY you're actually thinking like this... Like I know there's not

Ok, so for starters here's someone who knows Maria very well saying that her behaviour doesn't match her norm, and it doesn't. Maria has been doing this weird "I want LLD to have the sword" and "I will vote LLD to die" thing and this is the culmination of it.

Dunn's been wrong on me before. Don't take his word for law although I don't know how this is "weird coming from me" given he gave no context on why that was weird from me. I don't get the point you're trying to make here
Pedit: LLD I get you're scum pushing me and stuff but I didn't answer because I was puking my guts out. Period

right but there's more than 1 person saying that behaviour was off. We're not always right but you can't discredit us both that way.

Also, your "illness" didn't stop you from posting things regarding Elsa v. LLD. So that's not an excuse, don't hide behind it. (Sorry you were sick )

LLD strongly relied on Dunn’s shading of Maria, to justify her gladiate on her.

LLD was town tho what

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, what are your thoughts on everything else? namely us four who aren't Dunn/Kokichi.

Penguin just needs to post.

I’m mildly paranoid of you tbh. This started around yesterDay.