Excalibur [Endgame]
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LL coming out hot with the reads.
What makes Nancy and UT town?
Why is mechanical talk scummy in an open setup?
If I was scum and you asked me to bus-gladiate, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Kill resolves before claim. Yes, we'd effectively gate the scum kill but we'd also render the setup as 13-4 mountainous.In post 39, Auro wrote:Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.
But I think you're right in that we could effectively use the sword claiming as a one-shot cop, but, again, that renders the bulletproof aspect of it kind of useless.
@MOD: If Merlin dies and flips, does Arthur's identity get revealed with the flip?
Can Merlin claim Excalibur?- Varsoon
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@Auro: They kill town and keep the sword out of play, though, again, I don't think scum really have anything to fear if a townie WOULD get the sword is the problem, because then so long as that townie is not Arthur, it's just a BP IC and scum knows they're BP so they won't waste time there.
@Elsa: It's literally anti-town for Merlin to claim Excalibur for two reasons:
1. It ASSURES that Arthur will never get the sword.
2. It deprives us of an IC slot that the sword provides since Merlin is already an IC slot by claim.- Varsoon
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I'm still wondering if it's just not a stronger play for everyone BUT Merlin to attempt to claim, so that we get a BP in the mix that scum doesn't know exists.
Then if said player is ever gladiated, they can just claim Excalibur-holder, Merlin can confirm and also confirm Arthur exists.
Obviously, this falls apart if Merlin is killed, which is what we need to avoid the hardest.
This setup actually has a ton of low-percentage-chance swing which is really awkward.
Like if scum kill Merlin N1, town is fucked sideways from a role perspective.
Whereas if Arthur gets the sword, town has two ICs, one of which is a Bulletproof Vig.- Varsoon
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Ya'll are hard over-thinking this shit, which, imo, is what scum wants.
It's really fuckin' simple.
Everyone tries to claim sword N1.
Whoever gets it enjoys being BP and can claim if they need to confirm as IC if dueled.
If Merlin survives to D2, Merlin claims to become IC and, if he knows Arthur has the sword, he says so and Arthur keeps their mouth shut or
if he knows Arthur doesn't have the sword then he claims who Arthur is and boom
Town has 2 ICs on D2 and a secret BP IC or
Town has 1 IC on D2 and a secret BP Vig IC
If Non-confirmed-Arthur town gets the sword, they never attempt to vig with it because they are just going to shoot themselves in the foot 12 out of 14 times.
And that's it.
There's no more optimal play around it.
If you try to publicly gate who goes for the sword, you don't account for
1. Townies that disregard this shit
2. Scum having control of killing claimants/not
Basically playing around it as a public cop only works once and even then it's iffy.
Our goal should be to shut the fuck up and stop tilting who may or may not be Merlin and just scumhunt
There's no more point to discussing the Sword mechanics.- Varsoon
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Shortens the lynch pool, nothing wrong with it.
But I'm of the mind that more ICs early is better than not having them.
Regardless, Merlin has to claim if survived to D2 due to Arthur info not flipping on Merlin's death; so long as both are in setup killing Merlin before claim wipes 2 ICs off the map.
@DVa: If we consensus catch two scum on D1 in this game then scum have already fucking lost.- Varsoon
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@Dunn: Except it fuckin' confirms them as ICs what don't you understand about how IC works
@Auro: Setup Spec doesn't help us do very much here and just informs the scum kill, imo. I think Cakez is more likely town for wanting the game to move away from it. We've got like 10 pages of shit that should be obvious.
@DVa: Or more realistically understanding that it's fucking hard to reign in 13 other jackasses and not hinging an entire plan around it.
Stop shading me with that ish.
HURT: DVa- Varsoon
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You're trying to force the worst use of the mechanic and it's scummy to do so because it keeps town from confirming the highest number of town and possibly having an unknown BP floating--there's no higher utility that we can get unless Arthur gets the sword and, with your plan, Arthur never gets the sword.
You know what happens if we have 2 consensus scumreads, realisticly? We force them to gladiate, one flips scum, and then we lynch out the other.
Wow that was hard- Varsoon
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Makes sense but I'm townreading Cakez' frustration with the game already being 10 pages of setup spec. Cakez's first post was on page 7 with him being like "Guess this is going to be one of those games..."
If there's a better plan, I haven't thought of it. Wish RR was here. RR is way better at coming up with a good plan and browbeating everyone into line with wall posts that obv!town him while getting everyone on the same page.- Varsoon
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Having 3 ICs on D2 gives us a lynch pool of 12 players with 4 scum in it assuming a ML on D1.
You being all "Oh nooo scum shoots one of them then"
So what then? If we ML D2 then D3 is still 2 ICs with a lynch pool of 10 with 4 scum in it.
"Oh nooo scum shot the other IC"
Okay great we STILL have 1 BULLETPROOF IC with a lynch pool of 8 with 4 scum in it which is a 50/50 LYLO which is way better than most LYLO odds.
People who think the ICs should stay unclaimed don't understand optimal use of the role in how it narrows lynch pools and certifies town voices.
@Nancy: Arthur never gets the sword in DVa's scenario.
In fact, unless Town is willing to literally suicide itself, Arthur doesn't get the sword most of the time in this game anyway.
It's not reasonable to try to play towards Arthur getting the sword and Arthur having the sword just gives us a Vigilante shot which, realistically, just hits town more often than scum anyway and throttles us towards loss.
@Auro: Fat chance. I'm always going after the sword because DVa's plan throws away Bulletproof for not-really-a-cop shot that doesn't work most of the time.- Varsoon
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It's baffling that you're coming to the same conclusion as me but you're scumreading me for coming to that conclusion.In post 357, MariaR wrote:Talking mechs is the most NAI/scummy content you can ever bring yourself to talk about because you're talking about something that is rather simple instead of scumhunting like you should be doing overall the mech talk. If you look at this game in the most basic sense it's red flag with 2 ICs with everyone having a gladiator power. If we work together on using hurt tags to put up the 2 people everyone finds the most scummy that is gonna be more useful then fighting over what the 'best plan' for the sword is. What you're doing isn't helpful it's more anti town then not
I don't get it.
@Nancy: Sorry, got worked up, don't really want anyone to die or anything like that, but it is frustrating that people are way overthinking this and getting taken for a ride.
I don't mean to insult anyone personally; I don't trust the entire playerlist and I think DVa's plan keeps us too mechanics focused while giving up the one strength we have from this setup.
@Auro: Misleading us how? I've been forthright with everything and I wouldn't even call it 'leading' to say we should just play the game the way it was probably designed to be played.- Varsoon
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It's not a stupid ass plan to narrow the lynch pool you fucking mong
We literally only win game if we lynch enough scum.
You're over here like "Lol our ICs shouldn't claim till LYLO"
Oh yeah great fucking idea
so if scum doesn't KILL MERLIN before then, fucking that plan entirely, we're looking at a LYLO where scum can just fucking FAKE CLAIM MERLIN ANYWAY BECAUSE IT'S AN IC BY CLAIM NOT BY ROLE USAGE- Varsoon
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@Veridian: IC is a term that means 'Innocent Child'. It's a role that's confirmed as town by the moderator. Here, we don't actually have any ICs, but due to the moderator/setup info, we know that anyone claiming Merlin is either town or a liar and that Merlin knows who Arthur is, which confirms another town player, and that only town can claim the sword, so if the sword is claimed, we know the player who has it is confirmed as town and Merlin can confirm their claim as sword-haver.- Varsoon
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Basically, if Merlin dies, we lose all of our ICs because
1. Scum can claim they have the sword when they don't.
2. Merlin has to claim who Arthur is for Arthur to be IC.
This all goes to shit in a MYLO/LYLO because scum have higher incentive to fake-claim and force a 50/50 instead of taking the worse odds.- Varsoon
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Something_Smart over there in his scum PT like "Shit shit we gotta shut down Varsoon's plan because it's the fucking ideal one that gives town the best chances of winning. Let me propose some shit where our ICs lose all effectiveness entirely"
Oh wow surprise that line of posturing is garbage and does nothing to advance reads.
HURT: Something_Smart
Fucking moronic.
Delete your account and make a new one called Something_Scummy or Something_Stupid if you're gonna keep that shit up.
P-EDIT:
@Auro: Swordholder's the only IC that gets to stay hidden because that's how their BP keeps its effectiveness.
Merlin should always claim D2 because otherwise Merlin's death makes us lose info on who Arthur is.
It doesn't matter if it's the 'OBVIOUS' NK, it gates the NK and shrinks our lynch pool.- Varsoon
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Mass Claim D1 means Arthur can NEVER get the sword.In post 653, DVa wrote:
You haven't fully explained why the mass claim would need to be d2 though. By your logic it seems as though mass claim should be d1. Why not day 3? Why is the math best on d2 specifically?In post 646, Varsoon wrote:We can have civil discussions but you framing it like I'm the problem here when it's clear you haven't read my posts is troubling.
Mass Claim D2 gives us the best chances of having the most conf-town at the same time.- Varsoon
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Yes I have responded to that point in particular and it's maddening for you to repeat that I haven't over and over.In post 679, Something_Smart wrote: So... you still haven't done what I asked. Do you agree with the following:
or not? And if not, why do you disagree?In post 387, Something_Smart wrote:Confirming the highest number of town is not the best goal. If an obvious townie who was going to die at night turns out to be confirmed, it does nothing for us.
What we want is one of two things: confirmed townies that scum can't kill before it matters (either BP or confirmedin LYLO), or being able to choose who gets confirmed (because we can pick scummy players to get either guiltied or confirmed).
No, I disagree entirely.
I disagree because what I want (and what we should want) is a plan that works REGARDLESS of town cohesion, and that works AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and that GIVES US THE MOST GUARANTEED LEVERAGE OVER SCUM;
If we have 2 confirmed in Merlin-Arthur on D2 with a hidden third BP player that can later confirm, that's the best possible situation for us.
Our lynch pool shrinks from 15 to 12 on D2 which is HUGELY SIGNIFICANT.
People have been trying to shade the sword-claimant thing but so long as our Sword-Holder just claims THE DAY BEFORE LYLO, counterclaims don't beat it and we are guaranteed a BP IC going into LYLO.
This is literally the only way we are guaranteed any ICs going into LYLO as every other plan hinges too much on keeping Merlin/Arthur hidden until at least D3 or later without realizing one of two things:
1. LYLO is D5 in this setup.
2. Every Night that Merlin/Arthur go unclaimed is another huge risk we take that scum kills Merlin and we lose two ICs.
So, to REITERATE because I know some people might just be dense and not get it:
1. The problem with 'wait to confirm Merlin' plans is that they are very high risk for relatively low reward (to get an single extra IC into LYLO, Merlin would have to claim D4 at the earliest and go un-gladiated and un-killed until then)
2. The problem with 'use the sword to cop players' is that it only works if both town and scum agree to play around it AND if we fail to catch scum with it the first time, it literally won't work because the sword won't become unclaimed unless the townie that claimed it suicides.- Varsoon
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Yes. I have seen far more games where town vig ruins the game for town and just gives scum extra kills than ones where town vig is a hero and shoots right.In post 685, Something_Smart wrote:
Also, do you seriously believe that Arthur getting the sword is bad for town? It's mechanically equivalent to double day, at the very least if Arthur has poor reads he can be leashed and it still provides a massive boost to town EV...In post 611, Varsoon wrote:Town intentionally killing itself so that town can eventually get a Vig that'll more often than not just kill more town is an awful idea.
I've moderated more than one game where town vig shoots town and significantly lowers town's chances of winning.- Varsoon
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Arthur is never IC if Merlin dies before claiming.
I don't get what you mean by hypoclaims on Arthur.
Also, I trust you WAY less after this recent loss to you in that Newbie game. You wormed your way into a townread on me there by being methodical and questioning like this and so I'm going to be way more critical of you moving forward.- Varsoon
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Scumpost harder.In post 777, Dunnstral wrote:*claps hands* Just because vig shoots town doesn't mean it was a bad shot *claps hands*
Also we never get a vig in this setup, Dunn.
I already came up with an ideal strat for it and even then it's like 1/7 chance,
It's awful.
The reality is that Arthur can't Vig until Merlin confirms who Arthur is
Trying to vig before then confers a 11/12 chance of suicide.- Varsoon
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That'd actually probably be fine. It makes it much more likely that Merlin gets shot D2 but if scum are out to shoot Merlin anyway they'll just do that if he hard claims.In post 779, Auro wrote:
In D2, everyone says who Arthur is if they were Merlin.In post 778, Varsoon wrote:Arthur is never IC if Merlin dies before claiming.
I don't get what you mean by hypoclaims on Arthur.
Also, I trust you WAY less after this recent loss to you in that Newbie game. You wormed your way into a townread on me there by being methodical and questioning like this and so I'm going to be way more critical of you moving forward.
If Merlin dies, the person he said is Arthur, is confirmed Arthur.
Yeah fair enough on the trust part.- Varsoon
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I literally just agreed about hypoclaim on this page.
Also, no, lynch pool doesn't become 12 if people don't claim because people won't know who is who and won't know that UNLESS THEY CLAIM. Worst case scenario is that Arthur gladiates Merlin or the Sword Holder. You're working on the assumption that the lynch pool is 12 without the claims because, once gladiated/run up, the player can claim, but then we haven't looked in that pool, we've just run up or, worse, gladiated a player we can't lynch due to IC, forcing our lynch onto the other option, which is awful because then there's no criticism that can really be levied for mislynches and no associatives based solely on voting.
Screw it.
You want townies to kill themselves impaling on Excalibur every night, go with that plan.
When we lose the game thanks to that rubbish plan, I'll be in post laughing at you.
I said I was done talking about this garbage on Page 10. Why am I still getting dragged into this?
Also, Dunn, just because I think your ideas are awful doesn't mean I'm going to hurt tag you over them. Sometimes you can be wrong and town, which is something I have to reconcile, because it either applies to me or like eight other people in this game right now.- Varsoon
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Not really, because if we do a Merlin Hypoclaim, scum have a very assured pool of who Merlin/Arthur are and can just play around those wagons in a way that won't create negative associative information.
I joined this game because I generally enjoy FakeGod games, but I should've realized how tediously governed the entire mechanical system would become. I really can't stand when that happens, even if it does give us a better chance to win. It's just not fun for me.
Honestly, I might dip out just because of that. I dunno.- Varsoon
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Dunnstrall isn't trying to rope me into more mechanics discussion when it's already pissed me off so much the mod warned me to stop.
I'm done talking about mechanics.
Also, I really think people should look at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77673 and try to evaluate if Auro's play here matches how he played in this scum win he literally got today. I'm way way way too close to it to make an unbiased judgment.- Varsoon
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Sorry, homie.
I've literally been playing in newbie games to try to curb this sort of thing because those are often games where I find myself having to deal with people wanting to rules-lawyer against me.
But since I was making progress and generally doing well in those games I thought I'd be fine here
I guess not. :/- Varsoon
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You keep saying that but you keep not dueling.In post 891, DVa wrote:
Get gladiated so I can lynch you kthxbaiAuro wrote: I've played alongside scum!DVa before, and "seriousness" is a part of her scum meta -- just check her games. What makes this stronger is that she won't deny that she *finds it harder* to be chummy as scum. Just ask her that.
There's literally nothing keeping you from being the one doing the gladiating other than some sense of self-preservation that you shouldn't even care about because if you're town you can just claim sword.- Varsoon
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Apologies for being 'obnoxious', btw.
I like to think I've stepped a lot down from that since.
Also I still think most people going for sword is important because then it actually gives us a chance arthur gets sword instead of ends up being the mook who doesn't and, on top of that, keeps scum from being able to plan their kill around swordclaimers.- Varsoon
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@D.VA: I don't see how the cross-gladiate maximizes info versus people just gladiating their biggest scumreads, though.
@S_S: That'd be the case if Arthur knew he was Arthur, but he doesn't, so if Arthur doesn't attempt to get the sword, his chances are always 0. Since no one knows if they are arthur or not other than Merlin, everyone should try to get sword, right?- Varsoon
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Is it?
If we're using a system of FoS/Hurts anyway, kinda renders the Gladiate mechanic pointless via governing, since town's just gonna lynch who they think is most scum anyway and scum can bus that anyway just like any other game.
The only difference is when people actually have to commit to a vote but even then since we're treating hurts like vote-level commitment, it's kinda whatever.
Where did Auro make something up?
How are you sure it's made up and not just misunderstanding/derps?
I guess Auro's been leaning on it but I dunno that he's really pushed that as rationale you're scum, or has he?
Like you v auro feels venomless. - Varsoon
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