mini normal 2042: labeled pictures meme mafia (game over)

[teacher]

FFs is going to be a mistake. Mobile and still on page one but

VOTE: elephant

Thanks for the welcome

[teacher]

Nice to meet you who. I’m only online nights so my meta is obvtowb effort posts as a couple players in the game know. I don’t do interactions that much except when I can spare it. I am very interested to see how an early wagon peaked so fast though.

[teacher]

@teacher: are you implying there's scum in the wagon? why are you not probing who you think is/are scum there?
im giving you the benefit of the doubt since you said you're on your phone..it sucks to have to post from there..

I wasnt lying when I said I was still on page 1. I then follow up posted when skimming the page where my post landed, and to get a bit of a reaction to what felt forced.

Im still on page 1, with parts of page 5 and 8 read. I couldnt tell you who was on the wagon if a million bucks rode on it. I hope to be there in about 4-6 hours.

But Im at a desktop now, so will be puttering back and forth to the site until I can actually pay attention.

[teacher]

I will consider policying FWS if nothing strikes me on the readthrough. Please use regular caps? Pretty please? I hear there is free bread on offer.

[teacher]

Its your frickin bread by ISO, though I appreciate the readslist. On a quick ISO, I dont see you explaining the hard town Xwing. Youve obviously played with them, and I dont see reasoning yet.

[teacher]

BTW, that should have a question mark.

[teacher]

Its your frickin bread by ISO, though I appreciate the readslist. On a quick ISO, I dont see you explaining the hard town Xwing. Youve obviously played with them, and I dont see reasoning yet.

yeah....that's correct

So do you want to give any?

[teacher]

also down to policy flooflez with extreme prejudice

Why was mine a wolfy pop in but this wasnt?

[teacher]

what's PGO?

To the extent not answered already, Paranoid gun owner.

[teacher]

pedit: was that rvs t-sizzle?

Yes. Id also be cool with Tchill, from my one game with them Id view it as a compliment.

[teacher]

Nice to meet you who.

EBWOP (much later) -- nice to meet you Sho.

[teacher]

THIS IS TOWN SHOSHIN

Talk to me about this. Because 107 struck me the opposite way. It, combined with an OMGUS vote and OMGUS read felt like pressure to townread the slot. Obviously she has meta Im not familiar with, and many people here are. But for those relying on meta, can you speak more on this?

[teacher]

also which post did you feel forced?

My own on providing my meta and responding to Sho's vote. I forced it out because I wanted to see who responded and how to my entrance.

PEDIT: High sort equity -- nullish read, would prefer focus there for future day's benefit. (at least my take on it)
T-sizzle/T-chill: looking for a way to refer to me not by name. Tchill is another player on site with some rep, so couldnt use that one. I think safe to ignore.

[teacher]

Alright, Im through 219. Time for the effort-post catchup. The popin questions from the readthrough still stand.

Elephant -- I will be paranoid of him ever since he cakewalked our first game on site as scum (cf. 180-Nauci). But this game from him feels different than the one time we played together recently. I found it interesting that immediately after the naked and unannounced L-1, he claimed an inno on Sho (80). The Elephant I know tracks votes better than this. As a result, the catchup VC in 158 felt a bit forced as well. On the other hand, I liked 167's explanation for the take on Carmen, a slot I am being pinged by. Mostly, I want you to talk about 129. I found the reads on Shoshin and Keyser off at the time, but they may be based on Meta I dont know. Please to explain? Pure null.

Me -- dirtbag.

Keyser -- I liked the early tone of GIFS and 19, though I cant explain why. I found the unannounced L-1 concerning, especially with the later request for no quicklynch, so am interested in

The Worst

explaining why it would be a townread. As for Keyser himself, I echo Xwing's question of what was giving you wolfy vibes about that slot as of 106? The naked vote on me seems a bit much of a reaction to what was admittedly a forced post, and potentially an early jump to an incipient wagon. While I liked later posts (145, 148, 171), on balance I think this slot is posting alot without providing much. Null scum within rand.

Krazy -- AFK getting no attention for it.

Carmen -- A similar read to Keyser. There is more I like here, such as the early interactions with Shoshin in 46 and 53. I am seeing some effort to sort, but am not sure I buy the sorting that results -- the townread on Sheep from asking for a Wiki, and the scumread on elephant both seem pretty empty. I certainly dont think you can call Elephant's ISO totally devoid of content, and am not sure I buy that Sheep actually wanted to metadive. pure null.

Shoshin -- my hardest slot. By far the most content, but almost entirely self-focused. Others say that this type of defensiveness is consistent with meta. I had a scumread as of 107, but have questions about the wagon. The first RVS wagon is almost never the lynch for the day, because people have a slight psychological block about returning to where they first voted. I am confident (by both statistics and gut) that there was one scum on the wagon at the time. I am not as confident for what this means about Shoshin's own slot -- whether it was distancing or not. The most pro-town thing I am seeing so far is 166's case on FWS. Shoshin, can you provide analysis on other players completely ignoring their read on you for the time being?

Fluffy -- The caps are an eyesore, but Im liking the material there. The interchange in 177 and 178 in particular seems guided by a true effort to sort. Why did you call this (on page 3 just hours after opening) a slow early game (60)?

Xwing -- was troubled that an apparent newb knew enough to tell the mod in the confirmatory PM that they were VLA weekends, until I read that they had played three newbs already. This is my hardest townread from 94 and 124. I also think 186 is rich with potential associative tells if I need to reexamine this.

The Worst -- my second hardest townread. Why did you not mention elephant in 190? Can you speak more on your solve, because if it involves your Dayvig proposal it is off. I also want to know more about the Keyser town (from the L-1 and the naked vote on me).

[teacher]

@all meta reads on Shoshin and Keyser - can you provide one or two posts in particular from other games you think I should examine?

[teacher]

Why did you not mention elephant in 190?

Relly=elephant. My bad. Liking you more. Will substitute the question for why Sheep is scummy?

[teacher]

Got to be honest, that effort to catch up early feels like a waste right now.... Im offline until tomorrow night, and likely again then, as I will be trick or treating. Be safe and well all.

[teacher]

Since I may be away for longer than normal, Im pulling the RVS. VOTE: unvote.

Nobody is really +rand scum to me yet. If forced to vote, it would be Keyser, but Id rather not park when I might not be back.

[teacher]

No interest in any of my questions then?

[teacher]

scum-Irrelephant doesn't dive in to save scum-Shoshin's bacon here.

wk tho?

[teacher]

If forced to vote, it would be Keyser, but Id rather not park when I might not be back.

Strange

... trying to connect me as your partner eh?

Why not vote here? I'm your strongest scum read... I am in no danger of being hammered... don't you want to see me under pressure?


Catching up now.

Not confident and n returning for 48 and have a stronger joint sr (Ie at least 1 is wolf) on CarmenElephant than on iso you.

[teacher]

No interest in any of my questions then?

what should I respond to? sorry, I didn't really see anything there to engage with

I think I'm kinda subconsciously waiting for your next catch up

I really do want more from you on the sheep and Keyser reads.

[teacher]

Ok. I’m mobile so will make a point to find time to respond to both of you in a free. @worst my issue is that I feel I have explained mine with reference to specific posts while you haven’t, so I was going for the comparison. But I’ll provide more detail. @key I don’t s/s them though it’s not impossible. It’s more that I don’t have a good feel for which one of them it is. I provided by thoughts on both lots and issues with those lots in the long post. But again I will follow up

[teacher]

Prodge til tonight Eastern. I have been tracking on mobile, but have been unable to analyze due to class work. Im now much more of a weekend than an inweek player. My gutshot reactions from mobile skimming posts as they come in:

1. TW gets my thanks and appreciation for the Sho meta links. I really appreciate it. I was already inclined to defer to the several metareads, but my click through seemed to confirm that.
2. Am glad Krazy got a little more attention, and that they showed up, but Im going to need more content. Seems like our schedules are similar enough that we will at least interact.
3. Speaking of, Carmen has gone AFK now, and since before my long post....

Mod - Prod?

4. But Elephant's response to my reads didn't help much either. My reads -- which TW categorized correctly, were two heavy towns, one light town, and 1.5 scum reads (key + Carmen/Elephant). To call the readslist

and followup explaining that Carmen/Elephant were not null, but rather an incompatible scum that I couldnt weigh against each other

mostly null-scum seems off and misreppy. If anything it was heavier on towning people than scum-hunting. But Im never good at judging people's reactions to me, since I think my wordiness is clearer than it often winds up being.
5. Speaking of, I found the heavy shading of my slot without many new votes pretty interesting. Perhaps Im channelling Sho's self-centeredness but it felt like there was at least one scum shading me but not voting -- some suggestion that one of the votes on me could have been a partner.
6. Whoever asked about how I normally form reads, I am normally stronger earlier. This game is hard for me because I have less time than normal (came close to not signing up) and I feel like there is an interplayer dynamic from past relationships that I am not picking up on.
7. Whoever commented on not being afraid of mobile posting, thats just not how I work. I need two monitors. I read in one, and add comments into my notes on another. I then reflect on the comments and post. I am very much a reflective player rather than a gutshot player. The hits above are the sorts of things Id put into my SS, not my customary post (at least not until I have better feels for the players.
8. Whoever posted the code for linking posts -- thanks. I know it. I link posts I think are important/central to my read. I dont link posts I merely refer to or think are not as central. If it would help others to have the coding for all references I can -- just respond to this and lmk.

[teacher]

Im now the AFK along with Krazy, and you have my apologies because I hate that normally. I slept for 12 hours when I intended to play last night. Im judging a debate tourney today but will get in action between rounds and definitely tonight as Im rested.

My reads have gotten stronger on town TW. A little weaker on Xwing simply from coasting when they are vla weekends and didnt seem to do much after securing a townread on Thur and Fri, but I still think the contentful posts ring townie. FWS has moved way down for me, Key has moved way up. Im at the point where my pool is Krazy, Elephant, Carmen, FWS.

Im still conflicted on Carmen and Elephant. Im locked that there is a scum there, but I want to double ISO for more confidence on which one. To be clear, my pure nulls on both were thinking one must be scum but not having strong pings on which one. Im also hesistant on reading Elephant because I have a genuine like for him as a person - I like how the game isnt personal for him. In my three games with him, Ive also misread him three times, so have little confidence on my ability to read his playstyle.

In addition to that double ISO, Im going to do a game search for Krazy, because I think reactions to that AFK may be informative. I want that slot to play the weekend like they said they would, and the two Friday posts seem like posting just to post without content or taking stances.

[teacher]

Im catching back up so going to be spamposting responses and reactions..\

scum-Irrelephant doesn't dive in to save scum-Shoshin's bacon here.

wk tho?

[snip]
what does white knighting have to do with this? what do you think made scum Irrelephant feel like this was a good time to swoop in and defend his scum buddy? or are you just being a contrian here?

I may not be using WK correctly. I view it as scum potentially TMI defending town. so I was suggesting I found Elephant's timing and defense.....interesting, especially since his take was different than mine. I now find it not as interesting since the meta take has been echoed by many others and Sho has towned herself from my perspective as well.

[teacher]

I agree his more recent posts have been more likeable, do you see them as coming from any alignment or the other?

He has moved up to a softtown for me over the course of the day after my post as well. Ill share what moved him after the readthrough.

[teacher]

carmen thoughts.

Sold. These were quite convincing.

intent

. Im popping in and catching up still throughout the day as well, so glad to answer any questions.

[teacher]

I actually do townread Krazy, though, despite my annoyance with his reasoning.

Based on what, exactly?

[teacher]

intent.

Can someone other than me confirm that its only L-2 right now due to Key's unvote. I will vote now if that is confirmed.

[teacher]

Carmen is town.

Sho, I get your position in both cases, but it seems like a really hard 180 you did in the 120 posts between this and now. What moved you off of sheep, or why were you so willing to pingpong this slot?

[teacher]

I agree his more recent posts have been more likeable, do you see them as coming from any alignment or the other?

He has moved up to a softtown for me over the course of the day after my post as well. Ill share what moved him after the readthrough.

Since you were asking about a comment made in my 220, my thoughts at the time were: "145[/post and [post]148 feel good to me as sorting and calling things out - but could be busywork? 171also felt like genuine thoughts, but could be scum-flexing?" Bottom line, they felt good and towny, but I could see scum motives.

Since that comment (and your question) however, I have continued to really like Key's play, which to me raises the Occam's razor odds of it being towny. I liked his pressure for me to vote (him), I like his explanation of the Xwing suspicion, I like that he corrected tw on the L-1 being intentional, and I like his acknowedging the few bright stars in my ISO while continuing to PoE me. I even really like 244. The partner searches and the play overall just feels real, and insightful.

[teacher]

Can someone confirm a vote would not be a hammer?

[teacher]

Krazy is coming across townish with an accurate read on my meta. FWIW, elephant was scum in Newb 1863 this Juneish.

[teacher]

I’m pretty into a Carmen sheep team atm.

[teacher]

VOTE: Carmen

L-1.

Also willing to go to FWS. Feels like the game is lagging a bit, but likely thats just the weekend absences. Im planning to be around tonight FWIW.

[teacher]

I’m not going to be able to solve until tomorrow night at best and most likely Saturday . If people wanna try to hammer me before then, they should. Given how I’ve played, I should not be allowed to make it to lylo which is tomorrow with a mislynch. I agree that sheep looks scummy from yesterday but I’ve done no nka.

Responding at somewhat random, I didn’t talk because the hammer came before I logged on. (@xeing I think). And sorry for my time zone screwup on your weekend.

[teacher]

Can I ask that we withhold L-1 through Saturday?

[teacher]

Why is no one amazed at my proof that sheep is scum
He’s not even denying it

Sheep is scum, but Im not his partner. Thus I view the solve as as an attempt to put us at Lylo even with a claimed scum.

[teacher]

Without an NKA or reread, Im leaning Elephant. But I want to do both those things.

[teacher]

if my soul is correct we nuke teacher after floof

Got to be honest, this has me wanting to reread you too. I can see scummayor in your play, but I also see TONS of effort to solve. I dont have great leads this game because Im not really playing it. Part of why I want a long day so that I can get time.

[teacher]

And happy belated scumday.

[teacher]

Quick NKA --

• Keyser as a night kill makes sense -- he was probably the most townread player unlikely to be protected (this is gut without rereading the board). I dont think this was a framejob pick.
  
• I view it as town indicative for Krazy because of 568. This was a slot that was getting null-scum from inactivity, and I dont think it would want to remove a potential defender.
  
• I see Elephant as having possibly having scum motives from 488 and 500, to name a few examples when there could be more.
  
• I also see scum motive for Sho - Key was one of the few slots that was questioning the heavy meta case, though they eventually "bought a ticket". While I town Sho as well, the death will make me re-examine that.
  
• Both those scum motives, however, are less important than the town Krazy. Claimed Scum FWS has motive enough from 573 and 442. I could see scum!FWS hoping to Lolhammer and escape for just one day to get to lylo and plant false associations. This makes Key's other scumreads less important.

At this point, and with how D1 ended, I am going to look at the wagon and essentially treat FWS as flipped scum.

[teacher]

soulread 2 scum on wagon bee tee dubz

Inclined to agree, though Im wondering why YOU posted this.

As background, Im a believer that in a 7-2 setup there is normally 1:1. There is a statistical difference between the likelihood of that setup and the likelihood of 2:0. I actually use that difference to form my reads generally.

There are just a couple of issues with using that here. First, I have made this case several times in recent games, meaning anybody who knows my meta knows Im likely to reach that conclusion, and people here have meta read me. Second, if it is 2:0, it is almost always a scum holding the hammer....and look at that, its Sheep with a lolhammer as his slot was coming under fire.

As for you (one of the two off wagon candidates) posting it, Im not inclined to think much. I think you are back being active and addicted to the game. Scum!you does not need to reinforce the town case. You remain locktown for me.

So from wagon analysis, I remain at Scum!sheep, and thinking the partner is likely there too.

[teacher]

BTW, just because it has been a while, I will ask the board for a courtesy of no L-1 until Friday night please? I think sheep will self-hammer.

[teacher]

I'm no longer at 98% sheep I scum, I'm at like 83%

sheep - definitely scum, right?

???? (also mobile editing sucks)

[teacher]

why are you being fatalistic on your slot? no one's even tried to form a wagon on you D2 yet

Its because I think there is zero risk of me being the nightkill and a significant risk of me losing the game if I make it Lylo. I havent seen anyone by Sho townread me (but see their more recent post), and I honestly understand their view -- I havent done much. So the least I could contribute is get rid of scums easiest path to victory.

But tbh it was a little bit of a sense of exhaustion with the game at the time. I shouldnt have signed up due to school commitments, but I really liked the player list. In game, however, getting on and doing reads felt like a chore and duty rather than fun. Im now excited to try to figure this out over the weekend, so dont feel the same way.

[teacher]

sheep, krazy has given intent so in your next post you should claim

This was intent to L-1, not intent to hammer. You didnt need to unvote.

[teacher]

Like if you think sheep will self-hammer what part of my posts bothers you

It seemed like you were building an excuse to get off Sheep if an exit became available by reducing arbitrary percentages of scumminess, but then going back strong once the readslist posted.

Like I said a long time ago, I dont trust myself to read you, and I dont want to scumread you. But you will definitely be one of the players I plan to put in triple ISO to solve.

Hope this week is going better than last for you. I am so looking forward to Friday myself.

[teacher]

I put him at L-1

Youre right, my bad. I didnt see/log TW's vote immediately post phase turn. Thank you for the courtesy, I appreciate it very much.

[teacher]

I thought I'd caught scum accidentally revealing things from scum chat

You thought scumchat was already on post 2042 in a game with 2 scums where we ourselves arent there with 9 players? Tell me more.

[teacher]

Ah I get you now. And I do recall you saying that before - the problem with phonereading, I didnt get it at the time and havent gone back. But at least youre entertaining my lunch.

[teacher]

Thanks.

FWIW, MY triple ISO is you Shosh FWS since Im treating FWS as claimed scum, and Krazy hasnt said enough to make it worth testing associations.

I didnt catch it in real time for 220, but I found it odd just how much attention FWS and Shosh paid each other in RVS. Fully 20% of the first hundred posts of the game is those two slots talking about the other. 17, 21, 22, 27, 30, 35, 38, 39, 40, 44, 49, 51, 60, 61, 64, 66, 67, 96, 97, 100

[teacher]

teacher has referenced this post as *so obviously* stating that either me or Carmen is scum. I definitely don't read those words anywhere in here? Am I missing something?

You did remind me, however, of something else I wanted to respond to. I was actually referring to 237 and 241, not the one you quoted.

[teacher]

Thank you for the day(s). I have to admit Im surprised by the lack of play. Yes, we are lynching sheep. Yes, that will flip red. But at this rate town is still heading to Lylo, so it might make sense to try to get more posts out of everyone including (and especially) me and Krazy. Right now, Im inclined to think the remaining scum is Shoshin, despite the heavy meta reads. I will post on why in separate posts on TW, Shos, Elephant, and Krazy. I should be around most of today and, provided the hammer doesnt fall, tomorrow.

I am more than happy to vote sheep, but I think scum benefit from a fast day today because that leads to a mislynch tomorrow.

[teacher]

If one of Carmen or FWS is town, xwing's the other scum.

Talk about this please.

[teacher]

Shoshin:

Spoiler: Early game thoughts

one who is actively trying to scumhunt,

the worst knows this isn't my scum game because he's seen it before. That's why his vote was terrible and why I'm voting him for the rest of this game unless he really towns it up.

I had scum vibes from the instistence on being LAMISTY and the OMGUS reactions to several votes. While I was going to defer to the meta-reads, I know somebody has to be wrong, so am going to trust my own gut, plus some of the new-found associations.

Hey Irrelephant. What do you think of Key so far? And Carmen?

Redirects attention to two known townie slots – including the successful mislynch and the one that isn’t townreading her – at a time when she is the leading wagon, and attention seems to be going sheep’s way. Partner points from one of the only posts that isn’t explicitly directed to or about Sheep.

I'm surprised people are staying away from FWS. I still think he's scum

This is a townie point for Shoshin – she pushes the effort to wagon scum on Day 1. But I think it is a bus. FWS was not likely to take the lead at least until immediately before the Lol!hammer.

Bottom line, to answer @Xwing’s answer from earlier, I found the laser of the early game between Shoshin and FWS to be scum indicative, because it seems so antiscum. For want of a better word, too blatant to suggest a team, thus suggesting a team. Like this as the first post for Day 2 from likely caught scum:

Hello
VOTE: Shoshin

would normally be town!indicative for Shoshin, because 1-D caught scum would likely not vote their partner (because it seems to obvious an attempt at distancing). But for just that reason, voting the partner is consistent with the strategy I see this game.

Spoiler: xwing thoughts

On Teacher, I like 209, 215, 220, 221, 227, and 238. As I said, there's a pushiness for information and a drive to figure things out on his own terms instead of anyone else's. It feels town to me.

This had me towning Shoshin, because I saw no need for scum!shoshin to defend me for towncred – she already had plenty. So it actually felt like a drive to solve. But add these two:

I'm not reading xwing as town.

Maybe we should lynch teacher?

And Im inclined to see it as scum leaving safer lynches for harder days.

Moreover, the long Xwing-Shoshin 1v1 on page 24 definitely does not feel TvT to me. Shoshin is too pedantic.

Another major indication for me is the lack of effort today. From someone who is unquestionably the leader D1, I now see Shoshin as falling into her own self-description:

I simply can't maintain any degree of effort as scum for longer than a couple pages

My bottom line is that I am stuck with a PoE pool of Shoshin, Krazy, Elephant and Xwing, and I dislike them in that order.

[teacher]

Krazy:

The AFK that makes me want to have today actually last, so that people can sort better. I have limited thoughts to go with their limited posts.

So I only have experience with late-game replace-in Krazy, who arrived with a solve in hand, and scum Krazy, who again replaced-in to a terrible slot but tried energy play. This is neither of those, so I don’t have good meta here to go on.

What I have seen so far I somewhat liked. The post that was the worst for me was 543 – it comes after posting a bunch of links and essentially nulls everybody. (Cough – elephant, isn’t a mostly null readset scummy?). But the followup made me feel better. Specifically, this

teacher -- Err, for some reason I feel like teacher has had decent presence, but at a glance, he is actually slightly more in line with his scumgame. Last time I was with him I correctly sorted him as town very quickly, but maybe his real life business is tilting my read

Is an incredibly accurate and detailed metaread of me. So I read this as giving genuine information and trying to advance the game. I felt the same way about 758 – Krazy has clearly read the game, and I think comes out in the right place on Elephant. 554 also comes to the right place on both Carmen and Sheep, and at a time when there is an outside chance that the momentum shifts, so this post gets Krazy more towncred than Shoshin got.

the difference in how the player sees themselves from how I see them makes me think they might be more likely to be town

Great detail and good reasoning.

Bottom line Im left with a weak townlean and a lot of WIM to be able to confirm that and also solve the game.

[teacher]

2. "hardest slot" 220 - maybe teacher should answer this

Hardest slot to sort at the time. I had a scum reaction to the early game, but read the meta reads and liked later posts. Basically, it was not null, but rather strongly conflicting scum and town instincts. I think its scum by PoE.

[teacher]

Responding to 638 generally.

I did a double ISO of Sheep and teach

Included just for context.

teacher has referenced this post (220) as *so obviously* stating that either me or Carmen is scum. I definitely don't read those words anywhere in here? Am I missing something?

Nope. As I explained later, I was referring to other posts.....Like the one you quote JUST TWO below it. Dont see how you dont connect the dots here, unless you are just trying to get me to be the conf!biased D3 mislynch.

If forced to vote, it would be Keyser, but Id rather not park when I might not be back.

Strange

... trying to connect me as your partner eh?

Why not vote here? I'm your strongest scum read... I am in no danger of being hammered... don't you want to see me under pressure?


Catching up now.

Not confident and n returning for 48 and have a stronger joint sr (Ie at least 1 is wolf) on CarmenElephant than on iso you.

Still don't see any explanation anywhere for this MUST HAVE ONE SCUM read of the two of us. Reads as setting up for post-Carmen-mislynch, tbh.

And this feels like pressure to stay off of you.

sheep let's talk about Carmen and teacher
pretend one of them has to be scum and help me figure out which it is

Out of the two, I feel like teacher is the more likely scum? Carmen could go either way but teacher's 202 is very poor and nothing else seems to pull him back up.

Kinda over-scumreads teacher, imo. I think this is slightly partner indicative.

Actually, this is why I thought FWS was Carmen's partner. A point you give me antipartner credit for, but it seems like you should have connected the dots between my won vies and a point you yourself make later to come to the correct conclusion on my slot.

I’m pretty into a Carmen sheep team atm.

Hmmm I can't decide if scum teacher would say this about scum sheep[/qupte] This is what I mean. FWS's 283 (Above) leads to my 578 and 586 (above), which I think is a pretty good antipartner indication.
[quote="In [url=viewto

"sorry for afk, here's my excuse"/"if one of these two townies flips town, lynch the other" both come from scum more than town imo

I put this last because its an NAI discussion, but the same line (sorry, excuse) comes from someone who feels an obligation to play. And I dont like how you insinuate youre town here.

Bottom line I just dont like this post generally, but it has to do with me so dont put as much weight on it, and I like alot of the other things that I will post shortly.

[teacher]

EBWOP - Responding to 638 generally.

I did a double ISO of Sheep and teach

Included just for context.

teacher has referenced this post (220) as *so obviously* stating that either me or Carmen is scum. I definitely don't read those words anywhere in here? Am I missing something?

Nope. As I explained later, I was referring to other posts.....Like the one you quote JUST TWO below it. Dont see how you dont connect the dots here, unless you are just trying to get me to be the conf!biased D3 mislynch.

If forced to vote, it would be Keyser, but Id rather not park when I might not be back.

Strange

... trying to connect me as your partner eh?

Why not vote here? I'm your strongest scum read... I am in no danger of being hammered... don't you want to see me under pressure?


Catching up now.

Not confident and n returning for 48 and have a stronger joint sr (Ie at least 1 is wolf) on CarmenElephant than on iso you.

Still don't see any explanation anywhere for this MUST HAVE ONE SCUM read of the two of us. Reads as setting up for post-Carmen-mislynch, tbh.

And this feels like pressure to stay off of you.

sheep let's talk about Carmen and teacher
pretend one of them has to be scum and help me figure out which it is

Out of the two, I feel like teacher is the more likely scum? Carmen could go either way but teacher's 202 is very poor and nothing else seems to pull him back up.

Kinda over-scumreads teacher, imo. I think this is slightly partner indicative.

Actually, this is why I thought FWS was Carmen's partner. A point you give me antipartner credit for, but it seems like you should have connected the dots between FWS's views and my own (a point you yourself make later) to come to the correct conclusion on my slot.

I’m pretty into a Carmen sheep team atm.

Hmmm I can't decide if scum teacher would say this about scum sheep

This is what I mean. FWS's 283 (Above) leads to my 578 and 586 (above), which I think is a pretty good antipartner indication.

"sorry for afk, here's my excuse"/"if one of these two townies flips town, lynch the other" both come from scum more than town imo

I put this last because its an NAI discussion, but the same line (sorry, excuse) comes from someone who feels an obligation to play. And I dont like how you insinuate youre town here.

Bottom line I just dont like this post generally, but it has to do with me so dont put as much weight on it, and I like alot of the other things that I will post shortly.

[teacher]

I think the timing of teacher's towny moments might be scum indicative.

I get it, but it truly is an availability thing. Its why I play on MS - I need the 14 day days because Ill only have 3 of them. Also why I have 1.5 games since the school year started. This is my first year as a teacher (Im a recovering lawyer).

[teacher]

Im out of energy without having someone to play with. Elephant is towny from some contradictions Im seeing. Like 634saying that Keyser was "mostly agreed upon" as town, but 638 scumreading me for the Keyser nightkill

depending on board views of Keyser

. I dont think scum makes this careless contradiction to line up the already likely second lynch. There are other points, but mostly its just a soulread reaction.

[teacher]

Like hammering it.

[teacher]

lol

So, I know I die tomorrow, but humor me and elaborate on xw?

[teacher]

Because Im the consensus PoE/scumread, and I cant blame people for that, nor can I (since D3 likely comes mid-week) turn it around by townspewing since I will be busy with classes.

Im trying to make the best of my remaining life and my current availability by getting some sort information out now. So can you speak on XWing? I am troubled that their total post

count

is as low as it is -- it is what prompted my late day one doubts. But I like what I have seen in those posts, each feels like they are genuine, and personal, analysis.

[teacher]

Town Ascetic 1-shot Tracker!

Nobody has commented on this yet, so I will.

I found Both the ascetic and the one-shot parts of this PR interesting.

Togetherm they suggest either 2 additional PRs or a weak scum team. I think that will be determined by the strength of Sheep's flip.

From a town-PR perspective, ascetic inhibits jailkeeper or investigative. Since we have some semi-newbs here, I will give some jailkeeping advice. If sheep flips town (:lol:), you should act as a doctor. When sheep flips scum, act as a cop, since there is likely one scum left. Crumb who you are going to keep, since you could die, and having a clear will help town just as much as if you had survived and could provide your clear.

Speaking of, Elephant provided this advice after a past game here. While I disagree with how he applied it in that game and who he applied it too, I think the theory behind it is very sound.

[teacher]

So can you speak on XWing?

To put some further context on why I am asking, that slot has slipped to be about equivalent with Elephant, and below Krazy.

Krazy is out of my PoE pool. I posted on what I liked about him, but Im adding one more point that I (and others) had made separately. The Key nightkill affirmatively points away from Krazy, since TW/Shosh night kills are more valuable for FWS-Krazy given Key's reads.

One other early game point worth revisiting, assuming Shoshin is not the second scum, is the Shoshin wagon. It was

FWS

(17),

Carmen

36, TW 73, and

Keyser

79. I wanted to plant this for others to consider - It may make me reconsider my own views on XW-Elephant-Shoshin, since the latter two are off.

[teacher]

especially in relation to me?

What do you mean by this? (Want to understand the question before I answer it).

[teacher]

It was

FWS

(17),

Carmen

36, TW 73, and

Keyser

79. I wanted to plant this for others to consider - It may make me reconsider my own views on XW-Elephant-Shoshin, since the latter two are off.

I meant former two, not latter. Having thought about it for a bit, I dont think scum!Elephant pushes against his partner's possibly successful wagon this early, and after an unannounced L-1. This is another towny point for Elephant, and moves him up.

Im at XW or Shoshin for FWS's partner. I have had more scummy vibes from Shoshin, but XWing secured some hardtownreads, including from me, for what looking back are mostly tonal things, and has since coasted. I know they are vla weekends, so would prefer that this day extend into the week when they can post reactions as well, including to my answer to Shoshin's question once I understand it.

Spoiler: full board

Teacher
TW - if he's scum, I think the game is lost.
Krazy - Like what Ive seen. NKA plus genuine reads/lack of defensiveness.
Elephant - The Sho inno, combined with the D2 effort, make it unlikely to be FWS's partner
*****
XWing - will reevaluate and provide lengthier thoughts when I understand Sho's question.
Sho - scummy vibes already detailed at length. Also think FWS's partner wants to be on wagon today.
FWS - claimed scum.

[teacher]

Shosh, I have asked you two questions, and you have answered neither. One of my two questions was to clarify something you asked me. Rather than clarifying it, you instead asked two new questions. That makes me think you dont care about my answer to your original question, that it was just busywork. Moreover, I answered these new questions in 763.

Again, please answer mine (xwing, and what you meant with your original question).

[teacher]

Elephant - The Sho inno, combined with the D2 effort, make it unlikely to be FWS's partner

I don't understand this read.

Why would calling me town make it unlikely for him to be partnered with FWS?

Coming in to hard-inno you seems unnecessary - he could have just sat silent to see if the lynch took hold. By participating AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT, it makes a mislynch (assuming scum!Elephant) of someone who is reputably a good town player less likely, for little benefit that could not be gotten later by making the same point if a mishammer doesnt happen. Basically, it wastes FWS's vote wagon in a way that doesnt feel partnery, and doesnt feel like its done for anti-partner vibes.

[teacher]

xwing often talks about FWS in relation to me (i.e. he talks about the alignment of FWS in relation to my alignment), I'd like your thoughts on that

This was the part I didnt get. Why I excerpted this part and asked for clarification. Will now do my reread of X and answer.

[teacher]

Xwing PbPA

Intro note acknowledging biases – I have tonal bias to like the slot. I also am inclined to think there were 2 scum on the wagon (this statistically is far more likely when scum is holding the hammer, particularly a lolhammer long before deadline that is essentially a scumclaim). So simply from that, I go into the PbPA with a bias towards wanting to find the slot town. Finally, reading the triple ISO did confirm to me that both of the scum are in FWS-Shoshin-Xwing. There is no way Shoshin-Xwing in the 580s is TVT.

94’s discussion of FWS (‘funny-weird’) is the sort of blah-town read I would expect from a scumteam on the first day. But I liked the reaction to Shoshin’s defensiveness, because I shared it and it felt genuine.

103’s request to FWS to stop using caps is VERY slightly anti-partner indicative. IF this is a team, I think he would have ignored FWS here rather than just insert it. On the flip side, The post as a whole is their second, and the second mostly empty post that does not provide actual content – just comments on CAPS, which is a safe play that most of the board made, and a question about a movie quote simply to mock their own newbness.

124 is one of the two scummiest I see from Xwing. The first half is still empty self-depricating humor, part of what won a charisma read from me. The second half walks back their read on the claimed scum in response to questions. But it does provide analysis of FWS, complete with post links for people to evaluate it.

186 pressure on Sheeps unvote is slightly anti-partnery as well. I also like the question posed to me, calling for my slot to actually play. I liked the analysis given on bottom, especially of TW and Irrelephant. Both felt right. 187’s litany of Why questions also seemed to be searching for game advancing info, though after flips its notable for ignoring Sheep.

193-A Sheep post may be really interesting. This thread is the one time Sheep interact directly with XWing. In this post, Sheep defends the meta-townreads of Shoshin. I also think the advice in points 4 and 5 would be in the scumthread if they were partners – its more content than Sheep has at almost any other point of the game, and so sticks out.

216 I liked the question to me of what felt forced, since it wasn’t obvious I thought mine was. I also think scum!Xwing doesn’t tell their partner not to use caps a second time. (Elephant, btw, Xwing’s second no caps comment is later than mine if youre still on your tinfoil scumthread theory)

313The second, and scummiest, of XWing’s two posts that struck me. So wishy-washy on so many slots.

316 An aside because its in my triple ISO. A FWS post about me. But it also talks about my Xwing read (and gives it a scum flavor), and the Shosh wagon. Im going to want to revisit this one and 317’s hardtown of XW and think about it from the mindset of Scum!sheep.

319 is Xwing saying Sheep is behaving like a normal player now. Again, I don’t think a mostly silent player jumps in here with a townread on their partner and nothing else.

342 I liked that XW came back to her questions. But I note your own comments about scum!XW wanting to pressure you at this point given the boardstate. The post is NAI as a whole to me.

419I can definitely see this as whiteknighting Carmen, especially in the hopes that Carmen provides substance to town FWS and so slingshot a lynch onto Shoshin, where the scumteam can both legitimately go if XW is scum.

581 + 588 And Xwing is town. I like the explicit siding with FWS in the Shoshin fight. I don’t think scum!XWing talks about this in 581, and at length in 588, and instead focuses on Carmen for the time being, since the board perception of that fight goes the other way. I don’t see it as saving her partner, and instead see it as an honest error. In contrast, I view Shoshin here as trying to drive home the anti-association surface of the scumteams game. (on the other stuff -- I agree with 581’s gut on Elephant. I like that they pushed back on my reads when they disagreed and provided analysis, while also not taking advantage of differences in opinion to line up an easy next lynch).

[teacher]

teacher, why are you so certain that FWS is scum?

From the meme humor when called upon to claim? From the Lolhammer? Because its who we are flipping today so I have to build my analysis around assuming them scum? I mean, arent you? This question is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD (couldnt resist the sheep joke).

[teacher]

Elephant - The Sho inno, combined with the D2 effort, make it unlikely to be FWS's partner

I don't understand this read.

Why would calling me town make it unlikely for him to be partnered with FWS?

Coming in to hard-inno you seems unnecessary - he could have just sat silent to see if the lynch took hold. By participating AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT, it makes a mislynch (assuming scum!Elephant) of someone who is reputably a good town player less likely, for little benefit that could not be gotten later by making the same point if a mishammer doesnt happen. Basically, it wastes FWS's vote wagon in a way that doesnt feel partnery, and doesnt feel like its done for anti-partner vibes.

From a scum Irrelephant's perspective, not townreading me in the way he did would have been a very bad idea, because it would have immediately exposed him as scum.

But silence tho.

[teacher]

So you really don’t wanna answer my XWing question even after I’ve given analysis? See my full board reads list ON THIS PAGE that you ALREADY quoted. I can’t tell whether you are just busy working, spampostibg so my analysis of you/jk advice gets buried, or why you have twice now asked questions already answered while not answering any. !

[teacher]

If you decide to replace out, PLEASE PM me and don't post in thread after doing so - if you want to rescind the replacement BLEASE PM ME AGAIN and dont post in thread until i have been like "ok np"

This is bs.

• invis does not play like this.
  
• why would you lolhammer a known town, ever?

this is just offensive to the game, regardless of alignment. If I didn’t want more time in the day I’d ask for your slot to be modkilled. But I’m glad it’s not because we can sort around it.

[teacher]

Posted the above before Schadd edited his post to call attention to his rules.

schadd kindly confirm editing?

since it doesn’t appear below the post?

it used to say "replacing fluffy white sheep"

[teacher]

Intent but I’d rather wait til Elephabt and Xwinf can interact more, and Shoshin possibly answer the questions so also wouldn’t mind a retraction. That’s obviously the lynch for today but don’t see the rush to Night?

[teacher]

I will hammer in about eight hours because it would stink to replace into that slot. Let me know if you have any objections

[teacher]

Actually retracting intent til Monday so Elephant and X can get on. @shoshin my questions still stand. @ board what do you think of my interpretation of the Carmen PR.

[teacher]

Yeah, silence would have been terrible from scum Irrelephant.

also, why? Couldn’t he have just claimed to be offline?

[teacher]

Alonzo what other name was in your role pm?

[teacher]

(and thank you)

[teacher]

While I appreciate the replacement, you are the obvious lynch, and that quite soon. So on the off chance you’re town, spew anything you want to have explicit going forward - things that you think aren’t getting enough attention.

@ Rlephant I plan to hammer around midnight eastern tonight unless anyone requests I hold off.

[teacher]

oh no
I believe that claim
and yet we're almost definitely still lynching it
and then probably losing our other town PR and then shoshin will get nk'd
dummmmbbbbbb

Someone convince me I don't need to believe the claim so I can be happy about this game again

Unmmmm... the classes m hammered the slot it supposedly knew was town? It’s just a gambit to out PRs?

I’m pretty far gone into conf bias, but think it’s important not to counter.

[teacher]

The claim*

[teacher]

Also there’s no way an informed PR would be told the role of the ascetic.

[teacher]

Well we will find out. Sure there’s a slight chance I could be wrong but I fell like there’s no point in telling the neapoliticab who is ascetic.

[teacher]

Also I love holidays.

[teacher]

teacher are you also Tchill?

I wish.

[teacher]

Informed scum not town. Informed town does not hammer town. Certainly not town PR. Also breaks ascetic. Odds <.1%

[teacher]

My intent is still there in about 10 hrs.

[teacher]

Shoshin any interest in answering any of my pending questions?

[teacher]

VOTE: FWS

Not hammer.

[teacher]

VOTE: alonzo

[teacher]

Love you too kray kray.

[teacher]

Thanks for the replacement either way Alonzo.

[teacher]

Mobileposting quick reactions

Interesting that the nightkill was off the day one wagon, leaving XW as the only Unflipped off wagon.

Interesting that the early Sho wagon was entirely town.

Pissed as hell at Invis and debating reporting for discipline because that was a fracking game throw.

Shoshin my questions remain pending, and I want answers.

[teacher]

And no, sho is not a clear despite the neapolitian result. Given the flipped PRs (ascetic that only affects scum and a one shot investigative) think scum has a role cop and a goon. Sho could be the goon who reported as vanilla. That is why I’m still pressing my questions. My gut without a reread is still that both scum were on the day 1 wagon, and Elephant is the rolecop. He has played with me often enough to know my strong views that it’s normally 1:1 on a day one wagon, and I view the nk of tw as laying up the frame for xwing, who suddenly gets pushed at day start.

[teacher]

And I’m not voting until Krazy makes some analysis of this game and interacts. -now off to play with my kids on a snow day due to one inch

[teacher]

Final comment - it’s lylo so no voting please and thank you.

[teacher]

oh yeah shoshin is clear
neap gets "vanilla townie" or "not vanilla townie", so a mafia goon wouldn't get cleared here
weird that shoshin survived but I can't think of a mechanical way for her to be scum
that's nice

You’re right. I reread the wiki. Cool!
But that means fmpov youre 2/3rds scum.
Sho I’m sheeping where ever you vote but I want to talk about it once I have a chance to reread.

[teacher]

Yea I’m just asking for no voting through the time that all slots have to interact which basically means until Monday since Krazy and I are more active weekends (or at least I am - Kray hasn’t had much generally)

[teacher]

Sho could be the goon who reported as vanilla.

this misconception could be why shoshin survived if teacher is scum
probably scum with xwing in this case

I assume the other scum would have corrected me in selecting the nk. I recognize this could be a fake town slip and you have to wifom it but I had thought neap got a vanilla not vanilla result.

[teacher]

Please show me where you have seen town hammer known town without posting intent. I just don’t believe you and think you are now throwing mud.

As for why I hammered, I was waiting to allow all players to react to the weekend posts. All had. I was full sold on informed Neapolitan never hammering a known pr and so thought they were pr hunting. I wanted to prevent that and also since I had been claiming and retracting intent for a couple days, I didn’t want to seem like I was stalling a scum lynch.

[teacher]

I also found the seeming awareness of the hammer test itself a little scummy.

[teacher]

town gamethrew d1 (I haven't seen this exact scenario play out before, that would be sort of insane)

gambiting not the same. Killing knowntown PR is gamethrowing. Pure and simple. Maybe I cant see past my cloud of anger, but I dont see the equivalence at all.

<3 too Kray; I feel much the same way. The only question for me is Elephant or X.

[teacher]

OK. Why not?

I'll echo Elephant in wanting to hear the X thinking especially with the meta, but if youd prefer I do my own analysis of the meta I can do that.

PEdit: and I suppose I will be doing that.

[teacher]

teacher talk to me about xwing, then
in the world we're both town, xwing is always scum, so if either of us can make a really strong xwing towncase, we can vote each other
if we both agree xwing is scum, well great, we've found scum

See long PbPa end of Day 2. I think the weight is more on you (plus Im not rereading again until the weekend).

[teacher]

I’m good with claiming and don’t care about order. As my posts show I’m not sold on Krazy being town. I am sold on sheeping you, but I will still contribute when I have time to analyze.

[teacher]

Bueller?

[teacher]

Vt

[teacher]

His Australian/Asian weekend began one day after phase fwiw.

[teacher]

Im around and re-reading if anybody wants to chat.

[teacher]

I think its Xwing-Elephant, but am not sold on that. I am most sold on Elephant. Im going to provide very quick hits on my thinking, for a couple reasons. First and foremost, I am not sold/confident, so want others to share their own analysis without the benefit/coloring of my own so that I can better sort. Second, I want to interact more following that analysis, as tonights NK is obvious and town needs to find each other today in order to survive tomorrow too. @Sho, you should definitely make sure to leave a clear readslist before end of day too.

With that out of the way, here are my three quick hits:

1. The NK of TW is.....unusual and unexpected. I was actually going to suspect that slot as scummayor today given the lack of success so far. But its death instead gives a conf!town at Lylo. So I am crediting it somewhat as a framejob.

• This is the towniest point for Krazy. I think by EoD2, Krazy was likely TW's heaviest scumread (see 733 and 737). I get why, too -- I agree with the points made in those posts and am not seeing any effort to sort based on THIS game - I would have expected SOME revaluation between 899's "bus" and 951, for example. In other words, I independently scum Krazy, but view this nightkill as pointing away from him for the opposite reason as the Key night kill did. (Key had light towned Krazy, and so wouldnt make sense as a night-kill - 568).
  
• That said, it does not fully clear Krazy because it could also be setting me up. While I think TW had moved off of me in the several posts after 770, that was not explicit. The last explicit comments were 722 and 733's scumreads of my slot.

2. XWing's Meta -- I appreciate Elephant sending the game. But I agree with Sho's 931 take on the meta.

• It comes off to me as scummy. But then, this is the scumread Im less confident on.
  
• The pure activity tell -- Xwing had twice as many posts there as here, in the equivalent amount of time.
  
• The effort tell -- the posts there are full of explicit stances and attempts to sort, in a way that they are just not here. (as noted in 792, Xwings early posts are surprisingly empty, but still charming, looking back). There's alot more post-links and the like in his analysis there, and less self-deprecating charm.
  
• The D1 wagon -- statistically, significantly more likely for it to be 1:1. (But both Elephant and Krazy know from past games I think this way, so.....)
  
• Im also seeing Elephants proffer to go there first -- without analysis -- as softbussing for tomorrow, with the option to go to me if thats what Sho picks.

3. Elephant's effort -- We both scum each other for not being as solvey as normal. I concede I havent had the time I used to have when I was leaving a job and between jobs. But Elephant's effort is way off.

• I asked for an XWing analysis before Elephant's VLA in 951 , but didnt get one. I also find his ISO's lack of commentary on the differences in XWing's play between games fairly indicative, given that he commented on other slot's meta differences/similarities (Sho/me/etc.). Finally, the movement on XWing over the game (from hardtown, to need to sort, to scummy -- all without significant explanation) is what scum would want.
  
• Compare other early games (e.g., here and here -- where both times Elephant was on the ball and naming scum and scum teams early whether right or not) to here -- far more wishy-washy and less definitive.
  
• The NKs make sense since Elephant had hardtowned them (and the lack of an NK of Sho works as a defense for him too).
  
• He's darn good as scum and town has been lost this game........

So this ended up a bit longer than I had intended, and Im a bit more confirmation biased than when I started. But my vote remains pegged to Sho's, and I want today to be a long day to allow all slots to play -- especially you Krazy.

[teacher]

Interested in XW's claim now that Krazy weighed in.

[teacher]

And you see that’s towny from you.

You’re not wrong. My read on you did change. I was hung up on elephant you nuking off day one wagon to bait me. Still think it’s very much possible. I have an independent scumread of you as stated above. But it’s the nka which i hadn’t done that points away from you. But there’s another aspect of the nka I’m holding back on for now.

[teacher]

Shoshin's argument

also, what argument? She stated a position without reasons - possibly real possibly an rx test. I don’t see an argument there.

Again, not saying it didn’t affect me - it did. But I disagree with your implication on how.

[teacher]

I'm one shot doctor..

Wow Im so torn on this claim (as I hinted last night). On one hand, it makes perfect sense with a one-shot ascetic semi investigative and a second investigative, and with a scum no-Sho NK. OTOH, it is a perfect gambit for scum to try to secure success.

Im going to have to with my own gut reads and say Im back to Elephant-Krazy. This is the claim that makes the TW NK

not

redeem Krazy. And so I still have my independent scummread there. Still not at all sold, still want slots to play today. On that note, I have to say the scumteam is, as TW said, fire.

But I do want Elephant lynched, and I think the strength of his flip informs me on this claim as well.

[teacher]

Why I am not scum: I find towncasing myself gross and its hard, especially in this game because Ive just been wrong. That said, I will say that I tried to fake crumb JK in the same PR post you just quoted ("Speaking of.....Elephant") to potentially attract a night-kill as a pro-town service given how weak my other play has been in this game. Also, while I did not get to play late D1 due to the lolhammer, I think you will find that I was consistently trying (and failing) to solve while posting genuine reactions. Look through my post and see if the actions/thought-process make sense whether or not you agree with them, and whether it appears like I am trying to shift attention away or to any slots in particular. I havent had an agenda this game, so I doubt you can manufacture one. I also dont think scumme tries to be as egregiously wrong on what is the likely lynch anyways on D2, but I can WIFOM that right along side you. I also dont think you can really pair me with either Elephant or Krazy, who it must be. IF you have any questions about anything in particular I did, just ask.

Why you are not: Mostly my conclusion after the same process above. Im surer of Elephant partly for burden of persuasion reasons -- I expect him to be more aggressive/analytical than he has been this game. My guilt on you was half due to meta rather than anything in game. Your explanation - combined with the excellent crumb - clears that up. The other half of my guilt on you was reading Elephant's play -- in other words, it rebounded onto you because of what felt like possible bussing, rather than a guilty of you.

Im entirely ready to vote at this point. But Sho gets to call my shot.

[teacher]

Your explanation - combined with the excellent crumb - clears that up.

Just to make this clearer, I was talking about this:

My playstyle: if you've seen my previous games.. You'll see I show my thoughts out (maybe too much even) coz I like to be transparent.. But not so in this game.. I've read somewhere that advice for protective is to try to remain hidden.. So I played my usual role at the start.. But tried to be scummy (opportunistic on my push on sho even though I did really pegged her as scum that time so my reasons for finding her scummy was true).. Didn't attempt to vote at all through entire game not even in rvs (no one noticed? Strange.. I thought that was quite scummy)..

This struck me as incredibly accurate. It may also be why Elephant waited to share the game - he saw the difference and thought it could make you lynchable. You did play different, but your reasons for doing it are sound and consistent.

[teacher]

Oh look at that now that the game is solved Krazy is trying. Cute.

Sho I think the sides are fairly well developed. Is it me-xwing or elephant-Krazy. Game is on your call.

[teacher]

Are you kidding? I do it all the time as town - my first game with Elephant (newb 1863?) and I did it TO YOU here. this reeks of bad faith (as does the meta as a whole because looking over the whole game I linked it’s actually fairly similar to here, and an example you should know well).

[teacher]

Hmmmm. Explain? I throw the decision in Shos hands but provide my own analysis and say I want to discuss here. I throw the decision in you hands there but discuss them there. How are these different?

@Sho I don’t think Krazy is wrong that my play in otters is similar on the surface, because I do try to play the same as town and scum. But having had to go back to Newb 1882 I think the difference between the two is telling. Both here and newb 1882 I was fairly lost, and so my reads flipped but I called it out and provided reasons. In Otters I tried to hide the flip across hundreds of posts and never took my partner nos out of null - a good note for me next time now that I am seeing both. I encourage you to compare BOTH games to my play here.

[teacher]

Krazy - explain the no sho nk from a me-xwing perspective, when that slot scums both of us more than either of you. That to me is the key to this game. It shows the fear of a doctor to the extent of yielding conftown (but off base) at lylo.

From a setup perspective (as I said D2) a one shot town ascetic PR suggests a v weak scum team or three PRs. XWings claim matches pretty well, especially with the crumb added.

[teacher]

I think you’re purposefully misrepping that game, hoping to take advantafe of the fact Sho will read it cold. I didn’t say I had no idea, I said I was divided and leans towards HWS. Like here. That is why I view the two games as so comparable to what I’m doing now. you are now hardening my read on you when I still wasn’t that sure. But I certainly don’t think I’m going to persuade you, at least before EoG.

[teacher]

Glad you doubled your post count and confirmed your alignment however.

[teacher]

I’m floored you wouldn’t wait for the conftown. it’s not betting the game if it’s what you need to win.

[teacher]

It’s more that the claim brought you out of your shell Krazy just as soon as it put the game at risk. Either way I think we are just yelling past each other without advancing anything.

[teacher]

It’s more that the claim brought you out of your shell Krazy just as soon as it put the game at risk.

Yeah accusing me of presenting a solve after the massclaim is done as unusual is incredibly disingenuous.

and who said AtE? I haven’t attacked you/called you rude. Just commented on this game and other games in a way you can’t say is inaccurate, so instead you make it personal.

Either you’re scum doing what you have to do to try to win, or you’re town and going to feel bad about the personal attacks in endgame. Regardless, it is unpleasant and I don’t think we are likely to change each other’s views or convince anybody else. As I said before, I’m letting it drop.

[teacher]

My weekend v/la is more intense than usual and started Friday
Will heavily game solve Monday

We’ll happily I think this post reduces the odds of elephant-xwing since it is Monday morning for X and Krazy had a vote floating already. So fmpov it is pretty confirmatory.

[teacher]

So…. Krazy is supposedly good at meta. And he supposedly meta’ed me as scum:

Now the problem here is that Teacher knows I read his scum games, he knows I think about how he plays.

But then he posted this as a completely off-the-cuff unplanned interaction.

I don't think town!teacher ever tries to throw it all on Sho like this lol

The problem is that is demonstrably, demonstrably false by anyone who has read almost all of my town games, and certainly the ones where I make it to late game.

Newb 1863

261 – “Elephant has my promise on a sheep anyone but me.”
592 – “Again will sheep NK but only once he reacts to that.”

Open 722

464-“I love you CFJ and will sheep you for the rest of the day.”
1101—"I will return to sheeping CFJ”

Newb 1875

552 – “so I think Invis and Klick have to discuss this now, and decide on their next two lynches together. I will answer any questions they have and sheep them, including onto myself.”

Newb 1882

833 – “Second, possibly weakening your incentive to take this post seriously, I am going to out-and-out sheep you. I am very, VERY conflicted. I am posting, rather than simply voting, to give you the benefit of a “counter-argument”. Im not necessarily committed to it. If it changes your mind, great. If it doesn’t, great.”

I think this explains the interactions yesterday. Krazy got caught saying something factually disprovable to steer a lynch. The characteristic he called out as an AtE is actually very much a town-tell for me (and thanks for letting me know that for future games).

[teacher]

let me think, teach is on me, sheep on krazy, keyser on teach, shoshin on teach
okay great

vote Carmen

Why not vote teach with me and Key?

Is this directed because I have an answer but don’t want to step on toes.

[teacher]

Proffer for 12 hours.

[teacher]

Prodge

[teacher]

Wow that was mighty short reading after being away since Wednesday.....

First, Happy Thanksgiving everybody.

Second, Im at the point where either Krazy or I am conf!scum based on the vote floating. And I know Im not scum. So Krazy is now my heaviest scumread.

For those suspecting me, give me something I can respond to. I have been different than most games due to time, but I think you will see if you ISO me that the effort has been there, just not with successful results.

[teacher]

As for my Krazy-Elephant solve, I dont get how more people arent talking/analyzing Xwings claim. For me, it PLUS THE CRUMB clears him. Here is why:

The ascetic can only really affect scum, given the PR claims (it could block X saving Carmen, but that is unlikely since Carmen's full role would be outed if any of them). So it suggests to me that scum has a roleblocker or rolecop.

Scumroleblocker or rolecop is relatively strong in a 7-2, normally paired against 2 prs.

Here, so far, we only have 1.5 PRs, since one was a one shot. A Second one-shot balances it out.

Thus, X is clear. And it explains his play.

On the other hand, Krazy stayed quiet/under the radar all game, only to have a burst of activity pointed at me when I saw the light.

[teacher]

To clarify the above: X is either scum or a 1-shot doctor. Assuming scum!X, the ascetic can only possibly affect scum (since neapolitan was informed). That means that the scumteam has powers (rolecop/blocker). Which makes a 7-2 unbalanced - power!scum against a neapolitan and 1-shot tracker - at least IMO. So I am mechanically inclined to town!X. If someone can convince me I am wrong by pointing to any 7-2 game with power!scum and only 1.5 PRs, Im interested. But until then, my solve stands.

[teacher]

I find towncasing myself gross

Why?

If you're town, why would defending that "reality" feel "gross"?

First, Ive said it before, e.g., here. It is just a reality that it feels gross.

Second, I will respond to anyone providing substantive reasons why I am scum. I just havent seen them. My best towncase on myself in the abstract is 989. As scum, I try not to be as outfront of lynches as I was on D2, and I try to blend more than I have in general. I certainly dont go after you when youre conf!town. (as for why its gross, it is because any statement -- like that one -- can be WIFOMed).

[teacher]

I also don’t go so topsyturvy casting shade at all slots as scum. I have a plan and planned reads. I stay relatively consistent on where people are. But that’s all I’m saying without tangible things to respond to. In part because I feel like it was Krazy actually trying to make a case (town!teacher doesn’t sheep like this) that was the most revealing about his alignment when compared against my actual meta.

[teacher]

Yes, it would mean the game was already over so what’s the point.

[teacher]

Shoshin keeps a lot of her thoughts to herself.

Soooo who are you appealing to here, to believe xwing's claim?

I didn’t know this about Sho. I was appealing to her. I was also appealing to youto respond because I thought your response would be pretty incriminatory. As indeed it was. You can’t deny my point or argument, so you try to refocus attention away from the merits of the mechanical solve and onto the manner in which I presented it.


You’ve raised my thoughts on Sho D2 multiple times today without ever actually going back. Lazy scum.

[teacher]

I’m town. So if you’re town, Krazy is scum. Convinced?

Seriously. You know me. You know i sheep as town. Hard. I even tried to sheep scum!you.

Krazy is supposed to be good at meta. But he says town me doesn’t sheep?! Scum!Krazy got caught in a naked AtE.

[teacher]

I’m not exactly expecting to get your serious consideration.

If you were town, you would have to at least imagine the possibility that x or me is town and Krazy the alternate scum.

Indeed, the other day, you pretended to imagine Krazy-me. But now your “fypov” and “fmpov” make clear your mind is closed.

Good luck friend and always a pleasure.

[teacher]

But regardless of whether I convince you or not, answer these questions:

Do I sheep as town?

Is Krazy good at meta?

Did Krazy say I wouldn’t sheep as town?

Lynch all liars. That simple.

[teacher]

convince me Krazy is scum (which you should be doing for xwing if you really feel the two of you are the uninformed townies anyway)

Like this. Again, ive already made my case on Krazy with comments and post links. Multiple times. Nobody has done the same against me otherwise I would have responded.

I will say that I think x should vote you. Here is why:

FMPOV, Krazy is conf! Scum because of the floating vote without quickhammer. But they don’t know my alignment.
So All the floating vote tells them is that Krazy-me are 50/50. But you are 66% since Sho is conf! Town. Thus you are their best mechanical odds.

Of course the same would be true for you towards x ;P

[teacher]

I’m in the airport alond with my kids flying back home Thanksgiving break, so no I’m not going to try to convince scum he’s scum. I’ve made the cases. I’ll be online tonight if you have questions about what I’ve posted. But if you’re just asking me to case Krazy a third time, read the first two.

[teacher]

and scum you leaves sho alive in lylo because of the doc risk, not for any wifom

[teacher]

But regardless of whether I convince you or not, answer these questions:

Do I sheep as town?

Is Krazy good at meta?

Did Krazy say I wouldn’t sheep as town?

Lynch all liars. That simple.

Also please do me the courtesy of answering..... it may not sell you but just yes or no will do.

[teacher]

What has Krazy done that’s towny? I mean if we are 50/50 and you have said my D2 play seemed towny, you must have a reason to town them?

[teacher]

Ok so you can’t actually point to anything he’s done. You’d rather just make a subvert political appeal to the conf!town and assume that both scum in a game that got to lylo are idiots (even after you spent late D2 screaming about how sho would die to steer any save there). Seems believable.

And I’m seated to go home. Be well.

[teacher]

@sho please give me a couple hours to get home and test one thing. Also let me know if you have any issues you want me to discuss.

Mostly I want to fact check elephant’s “town vote first at Lylo” claim against his actual games. My guess is that it was subtle townshading for his partner before the claim forced them to go all in. I can try to case him, but my sense is you are someone who makes up their own mind. The two things I find most telling are the lie and the unwillingness to follow conftown.

What is more likely:
Both X and I didn’t know how a Neapolitan worked, so “accidentally” left conf!town for lylo, or scum were (rightly) afraid of a doctor?

[teacher]

Also, though elephant didn’t announce it, that’s L-1

[teacher]

so here's a thought:
I don't think a Krazy/xwing team comes up with a claim so strong it convinces teacher xwing *must* be town, without much second guessing at all. teacher is sure xwing is telling the truth either because (1) teacher came up with the claim or (2) it's a Krazy/teacher scumteam and teacher is TMI-ing the truth of the claim
Having ruled out that scumteam,
VOTE: teacher
I also think it's teacher/xwing, if I had to pick. xwing "heal" crumb came after Sheep conftowned shoshin but before he flipped (i.e. why would town!xwing believe sheep enough to decide shoshin was the right person to save? Every townie thought sheep/alonzo was confscum)

@shoshin, sorry if I've made this hard for you to sort based on not-very-strong play from me, but I really just kinda hated playing this game after sheep ruined any chance of a mechanical solve. lmk if you're still struggling to sort me.

I have so many issues with this post, I dont know where to start.

• For F's sake, Im not convinced. I just find it dramatically more likely. (You also think its a "teensy bit" more likely in the abstract, but you havent factored in the lack of a Conf!town NK). If you really are town, pull your vote and tell me why I should think you're town.
  
• Your tinfoil "Teacher came up with the claim" idea is ridiculous. If I came up with the claim, would I advertise it in 777,
  before
  the FWS flip confirmed ascetic could only affect scum? Would I then hint at it in 979 and 981 when I had already pushed you as my preferred lynch for the day? Or would I just tell XWing what to do in scumchat and then change my read after the fact? Occam's, Brother.
  
• What does Sheep's flip have to do with XWing's crumb? Shoshin was one of the two hardest town slots at that time,
  as XWing said when explaining their choice
  . I had suggested a crumb and nobody disagreed. Why should X have crumbed someone else if Sheep was scum?

Now off to 1. Refute the Krazy meta case Point-by-point, 2. Find the Krazy scum game people keep talking about, and 3. Reexamine you. Im now at a computer and without kids if you do want to interact.

[teacher]

So I went back to Krazy's meta-case (991, and I cant really respond to it because it's a heck of a lot shallower than I remembered. All it is is that I RVS'ed my scumbuddy on page 3, and then shifted off the scumbuddy on page 9, presenting the shift as a full board read. Yup, thats true. But what is also true if you look at that game is that my reads remained entirely static. I pushed Gus/Aristo and Performer all game, kept my scumbuddies in null-scum all game, and kept my town block town all game. No shifts. A vast gulf from any of my town games, especially ones (like here) where I have been lost and so suspicious of every slot. Seriously, I challenge anybody other than Krazy to read me in Otters and in Newb 1882 (played during summer when I had time) and decide for themselves which one is more like here.

That said, in ISOing Krazy, I was reminded of this:

"You're misrepping that game"
>every post is tonally night and day

"You're only trying now"

>Your first encounter with me was me replacing into a game at lylo

So, I linked specific posts to explaiin why I thought you were misrepping that game. Specifically, you claimed I that I said I had no idea and would naked sheep you. But I in fact said I leaned HWS (in 771). You cant confront the facts, so you just say I'm "tonally off" -- a vague nothing. Likewise, you cant disagree with my comment that you havent provided game-advancing content (and even argued against the content we did have Day One), so point to an irrelevant fact (my history with you) to distract from the point. And I have more history with you than that.

Bottom line - and for Elephant's benefit - the lie was Krazy's unplanned comment about my willingness to sheep. As I listed, its present in all my town games, including with Krazy. Elephant doesnt deny it. He cant. So Krazy - the meta!wonder - got caught in a lie in order to achieve his preferred lynch at Lylo.

Now off to Krazy's scum game.

[teacher]

I said town vote first at lylo?

The first to vote is usually town in lylo

Irrelevant, but answering Elephant's question. Also not game-relevant, but since my team also stinks, I wanted to offer this thought for any Pack fans: link

[teacher]

Ummmm..... I actually went to figure out the vote first at Lylo thing (both in general and in Elephant's games) since I had not heard that before, and caught another lie.

Krazy, the meta!wonder, said that there was no scum material from Elephant to work with. I corrected him by linking one game. But Elephant has two. And its on his fricken Wiki (something that has been raised and discussed this game, w/r/t other slots). Can we please lynch this?

[teacher]

I can tell from Irrels early push on carmen he knows hes not lynching scum, but is certain he wants to eliminate the (undeclared) team of carm/sheep.

ergo I'm gonna take a swing at Irrel/Kraykray.

Just a reminder of this.

[teacher]

Elephant's point about town generally voting first at Lylo is in fact backed up by his games. I would be interested in seeing the wiki article if he can link it because I didnt find it.
Scum Vote First: 2 Newb 1869; how good is von flare at laser tag;
Town Vote First: 4 Newb 1875; Micro 824.2; Newb 1894; Mini2032; Newb1999
No Lylo: 9 Newb 1863, Micro 812 (mechanics), Micro 816 (mechanics); Mini 2018; Mini 2024; Open 735; Mini Theme 2022 (though this should count as town); Open737; Open 739;

[teacher]

and xwing is playing like I'd expect given [redacted] reasons

Everyone, and I mean everyone, who has read XWing's now completed games have noted the difference between games. So given that at this point you had lock-towned X, why did you think they were the same?

[teacher]

(and since you told Sho that it was a poor D1 read, I'll provide additional context and point out that it continued through at least 730.

I believe XWing's claim because it nicely explains their difference from meta AND makes sense as a setup spec, including given the NK. I doubt XWing played this different from Meta only to be able to fake claim. And they seem good enough to play better/closer to meta as scum. They made the case why they are town. I did too. Why are you town? (I.e., clearly Krazy is conf!scum for me, but like I said, Im not entirely closed on their partner, just find the sides more likely).

[teacher]

Well played scumteam!

That Invis gamethrow makes me want to hurt him.

[teacher]

And thank you Schadd.

Any and all feedback on my subpar play welcome.

[teacher]

@Elephant-FWIW, my scumread on you was based on (1) being lost and (2) us normally having the same reads and having different ones here. Now that you know my alignment, want to think about what caused that? I mean, we both are likely always going to semi-scum the other, but I do enjoy playing with you.

@XWing: I cant wait to see the scum thread. You were brilliant and I am excited to play with you again.

@Krazy: Sorry if I got too heated in the 1v1; I was frustrated at not being able to convince the board that absent+lying=scum. You played brilliantly.

@Sho: What made you scum me? Only Krazy made a case, just wondering for future.

@TW: Your concern for Vizzy is reminding me to be human. Poor show in this game, but theres probably a story behind it. Thank you. And thanks for the pro-town play.

[teacher]

Quack in that case.

[teacher]

@Schadd, I especially appreciate your commentary in the deadthread. Thank you.

[teacher]

almost like scum trying to overcompensate for their informed perspective by pretending to be totally clueless

Thanks for the kind words in the following post. Tbh Day 2 and day three I was playing as if I was going to be the lylo lynch - I was over effort posting to sell townibess to elephant or X and trying to be a bit more abrasive than is my natural style for you - it had earned some townie points in your reaction to 220 krazy was eight to call my read on him political - I knew you were town and I was town, and I wanted to get you off of where I thought you were (scum on me). FWIW, Elephant clearly thought the same from his vote explanation, so I’d suggest you try to be a bit more clear as well. That said, I echo looking forward to playing with you again!