Micro 834 : Vanilla 8-Ball : Game Over

[Jingle]

Shhh. There's an irrelephant in the room. No one discuss it.

VOTE: irrelephant

[Jingle]

Also, whoever didn't want to accelerate night sucks. I had nothing to do yesterday.

[Jingle]

5 pages of describing my dreams for the last week isn't nearly enough to keep me amused.

[Jingle]

irrelephant, i already did the "jokingly scumclaim in RVS" bit. you don't have to do it again.

so should we vote no lynch just to see if scum is playing this weird

why?

I explicitly told you not to address him!

VOTE: NSG

[Jingle]

But no, really.

VOTE: irrelephant

For reel reels.

[Jingle]

so should we vote no lynch just to see if scum is playing this weird

because in my head you or jingle as scum would do that to reveal the least information
and if I'm wrong then no one dies anyway

which of my posts is a "joking scumclaim"? I want to laugh along but my posting so far is for srs

You can't mislynch an elephant. It takes a lot of thought and effort. First you have to get special rope, then you have to find something to support the elephant, then you have to somehow raise the elephant high enough to get it's head in the noose. Nothing about it is easy.

It's only worth the effort because of your scum PM.

[Jingle]

Oh, hey. I still had those quoted. Pay no attention to the Jester behind the bedsheet. I am the great and powerful OZ!

[Jingle]

King Henry VIII slept with a gigantic billiard cue beside him.

It's pronounced Ennery.

[Jingle]

Posts 19, 22, 26, 30, 31, and 49.

[Jingle]

Nope, not tone. Well... Actually, 30 and 31 are kinda tone. But mostly not tone.

[Jingle]

i did it before, even when you were a mason...

Wat?

Clearly, you're a witch. Luckily, we have a duck here to prove said witchery.

[Jingle]

Sweet, we did it NSG.

We convinced relly we're both town. Now we just need to convince him to lead all the mislynches one by one and this game is in the bag.

[Jingle]

I didn't know this was a multiball

It's right there in the name. 8-Ball. Eight scumteams. All of which have Jingle.

My money is on the tw-Jingle scumteam sweeping though.

[Jingle]

ceejay's avatar is Vivi from FF.

[Jingle]

Lowkey annoyed rn that you posted that before all the peeps were in the thread, NSG.

Still like relly for scum.

[Jingle]

According to some experts and/or court entertainers, "billiard cue" is sometimes pronounces "Ennery".

Spoiler:

[Jingle]

Would you say they were... irrelephant tones?

Also: And then there was one.

[Jingle]

Jingle, are you ever going to explain your scumread on me? There's not much else to talk about here yet

I would now, but for the moment I'm more interested in why you're so gung ho to have it explained. I wasn't really making my timeline for when I was willing to talk about it much of a secret (when everyone had come into the thread) but you were being strangely insistent that it happen sooner. Why?

Further, why would you expect that timeline to have changed at any point before everyone came into the thread?

[Jingle]

oh finally someone likable

That hurts me deep in the feels.

I don't like Jingle the most

[Jingle]

so should we vote no lynch just to see if scum is playing this weird

because in my head you or jingle as scum would do that to reveal the least information
and if I'm wrong then no one dies anyway

which of my posts is a "joking scumclaim"? I want to laugh along but my posting so far is for srs

Backwards attempt at mechanical discussion. Not town oriented in the slightest.

First, 'Let's potentially give away a free kill for relatively useless information' isn't a thought process that comes from town, imo. That's a thought process that comes from scum trying to look like town.

Second, you're presuming behaviors from people without attempting to ascertain the validity of those assumptions OR use those assumptions to push people and determine alignments.

Third, as far as I'm aware our entire shared experience is EIACR I, in which case you should have the following information about me as a player: I enjoy breaking setups. That's it, and the rest of your knowledge should be basically the same as anyone who has chatted with me in sitechat has.

I expect that given my interest in this game you think I have thoughts on the setup (I do, but at the moment I think it's antitown to talk about them because mostly it's about what I think scum should do, and that almost all of the town based setup talk should be reactive and happen AFTER nightkills occur). I don't expect you to be able to guess my approach as scum. More to the point, I don't expect you to think you would be able to guess my approach as scum.

This leads me to three possible scenarios:

1. You've been stalking my games/I don't remember a mafia game we played together.
2. You're lying about having a theory about how I would play in an attempt to mine for information on what I think is optimal scumplay because you know that I'm good at that sort of thing.
3. You're lying about having a theory about how I would play in an attempt to paint me as a suspect should we actually no lynch and the 8-Ball lets you kill someone, thus painting me and NSG as potential mafiates.

Of these, 2 seems the most likely, although 1 is leagues more probable than 3.

I guess it's probably true that it's not *that* helpful? But I thought of it while waiting for the thread to open and wanted to share
If scum got a nightkill we'd at least have the info of who they wanted to nightkill and we'd be in odds, but it's probably not worth the townie? But I guess I'm mostly suggesting it because I think 19/20 times, scum isn't choosing no lynch d1, so we could flashwagon "no lynch" just to ensure we're not in the world where scum thinks really outside the box (something I do think would be player indicative in this playerlist)

Also choosing "no lynch" is what I would do if, as scum, I didn't want the 8-ball to flip d1 for whatever reason

pedit: yay I caught one

No lynching D1 is bad for town (Actually, no lynching purposefully on any day is bad for town), regardless of whether the 8 ball is on No Lynch. No if's and's or but's about it. I can explain why if necessary, but I think the reason is obvious enough that you as the setup creator can be assumed to have seen it. Your pushing of that particular strategy is inherently scummy.

If I thought my choice would be very revealing (of relationships between players, perceptions, etc)
but on second thought d1 it would be pretty important to scum to hit the 8-ball, probably - or at least to have it as a possibility, to stay on evens.

This is a nonsense post. Scum doesn't need to stay on evens in a (mostly) nightless setup. Also:

I guess I don't know what I'd pick as scum here tbh
Probably not myself, is all I can guess

What? You're the person who made the setup. You have been thinking about and discussing the mechanic since October 26th publically, and potentially longer if you waited to make an MD discussion page until you'd given the setup a little bit of thought. Yet here you are claiming not to have thought about how you'd play this as scum? Unlikely. I think these two posts are posturing and fake.

I wonder if scum think I'm D1 miclynchable here

Posturing. This seems like you're saying "Hmm. Maybe I'm the eightball." but you don't really have a reason that you give to be thinking that. On the other hand, having the paranoia of you being the eightball out there is likely to make people reluctant to vote you.

I literally suggested the no lynch thing because I thought it was basically a no-risk *thing we could do and then talk about*
I did not think about it long enough to know if it was a good idea, it just occurred to me and so I put it on the table

this is all probably true
I have mostly thought about this setup as "what are all the unique ways to play" rather than "what is likely to happen" so that is why that occurred to me

This is potentially a legitimate answer to most of my problems with your play, but not enough of one to discount all of the scumminess around it in the first place.

weird tbh, I don't feel like I've been scummy at this point

Really?

overall awkward-tone entrance

:IGMEOU:


tl;dr:

Relly's setup spec has been wrong or scum motivated. Relly is playing in a way that suggests survivalistic behavior over scumhunting. Relly is demonstrating a supposed (and wrong) insight into my thoughts that he shouldn't believe himself to have from my PoV. Relly is therefore probscum.

Additionally, we should ignore the 8-ball mechanic D1.

[Jingle]

Whoops. Meant to spoiler tag the part before the tl;dr.

Sorry for the formatting fail.

[Jingle]

I'm sorry that I suck

I just don't check ms regularly and missed the pm about accelerating the game

We are now destined to be mortal enemies!

(It's cool. I suggest accelerated nights to pretty much every mod in every game I play as an option and they almost never actually happen, so I'm used to it. I just personally find night phases super boring and never want them to last the full 48 hours.)

[Jingle]

I think it's silly that your scumread of me is predicated on both [Irrelephant has thought this setup through completely] and [Irrelephant wants me to lay out ideal scumplay for him]

Those aren't quite right.

The first is more accurately [Relly is pushing the narrative that he hasn't thought about what he'd do in this game].

The second is more accurately [Relly's mechanics talk seems more like fishing for correct scumplay than actually trying to use it to solve the game].

With that said, I'm actually kind of liking your explanations in 115 and 116. Not enough to completely discount the original scumminess, but enough that I have serious doubts about my read.

What is your headspace re: the rest of the thread?

[Jingle]

No lynching D1 is bad for town (Actually, no lynching purposefully on any day is bad for town), regardless of whether the 8 ball is on No Lynch. No if's and's or but's about it. I can explain why if necessary, but I think the reason is obvious enough that you as the setup creator can be assumed to have seen it. Your pushing of that particular strategy is inherently scummy.

In hindsight, maybe not so obvious.

No lynching is always bad for town in this setup.

In the case where scum chose No Lynch as the 8 Ball, it's a free shot for scum.
In the case where scum didn't choose No Lynch as the 8 Ball, it lets them change the 8 Ball. They inherently have more information at this point in the game, meaning they can choose a player who is likely to be lynched.

Both cases are proscum, so No Lynch isn't a real option.

[Jingle]

Thought the 8 ball couldn’t be changed until the original is lynched

Changed after every lynch.

Btw mafia has full daytalk
Curious if anyone’s theorizing could townclear them early

Interesting angle. Have you come to any conclusions about it?

[Jingle]

I expressively forbade quack to make a quick night

[Jingle]

Busy as hell today, probably no real contribution til tomorrow.

Would like GE to elaborate on 144 and 145 if possible.

[Jingle]

Busy as hell today, probably no real contribution til tomorrow.

Would like GE to elaborate on 144 and 145 if possible.

144: given Relly created he setup idea I’d believe any questions to be genuine. So they’re not playing dumb, making playing dumb not his plan. That was poorly written out earlier as I wrote it on the fly without fully sequencing the logic behind it.
145: Mafia has daychat, but some might not realize. I wanted to see if anyone tried to connect the long night to no daychat so I could give them townpoints. The only person to do it was Saudade, in a joke post which I feel scum could still make.

Mine was apparently equally poorly written. I understood both of your original posts. I wanted to know if there was any other information you'd gleaned/thought could be gleaned from said posts.

[Jingle]

Does no one else dislike Jingle? Really?

What particularly do you find objectionable about my play so far?

[Jingle]

Vivi, on the other hand, did exactly what I said he would do.

VOTE: ceejayvinoya

Gross.

[Jingle]

as a sidenote, given that mafia has full daytalk, this setup doesn't actually need night phases: you could simply have it where the scumteam decides the next 8-ball while the current day is going on.

Probably not the most elegant solution, TBH. You also have nights where a kill has to be made.

If I was going to run this, I'd just do short nights (24 hours) and let scum presubmit actions if they want. I'd probably also make No Lynch an auto 8-ball and institute deadline plurality, but that's really not relevant to the current game.

[Jingle]

VOTE: pint

I like this wagon marginally more. Want to hear Relly's reasoning on the Gemerald vote tho.

[Jingle]

Sorry. Let me try that one more time.

144: You say that Relly is not playing dumb, and that his plan isn't to play dumb as scum. Have you drawn any AI conclusions from that? Does it make you think Relly is town, or clueless scum, or what?

145: You say that the confirmed daychat means some people might be town based on speculation. Why? Why is Saudade's post not AI? What about FA (The other person to admit to not voting to end night early)? Does it mean anything wrt anyone else?

[Jingle]

It doesn't mean anything to FA or anyone else because I posted my thoughts before any of them said anything that would be used for it.

I'm sorry that I suck

I just don't check ms regularly and missed the pm about accelerating the game

What do you think of this?

I'll drop the rest for now. Color me interested in what your angle with Relly is though.

[Jingle]

anyways, on another unrelated note, it occurs to me the anti-town nature of going too in-depth as to my reads.

I think this is wrong. Or at least, incomplete.

I don't think we can scumhunt without making it obvious who we find suspicious, so trying to hide our suspects is counterproductive. I would agree that outing preflip associatives is antitown, and I'd agree that outright saying "X is my second strongest scumread" is probably bad, but just whether people fall on the town or scum side of null should be relatively safe without crippling our ability to hunt. Trying too hard to stop the nightkill and preventing our own ability to share reads and build trust isn't going to help anything, though.

[Jingle]

Does no one else dislike Jingle? Really?

What particularly do you find objectionable about my play so far?

your tone is mechanical

Examples?

I'd say that I've been pretty jokey so far this game compared to my usual fare.

[Jingle]

[Jingle]

Jingle how do you feel about saudade's lonely vote on you?

I dislike it immensely. I don't think I've been mechanical this game, especially compared to my normal personality. If anything, I'd say I'm more like the low effort not giving a shit Overkill Jingle than my usual me.

I also really don't like his cop out response of "Every Post" when asked why I'm mechanical.

Why are you townreading him?

[Jingle]

can you summarize your scumread on pintu soon?

Vote on CJ immediately after speccing CJ 8-ball = gross. 184 is also really slayer's gambity.
Trusting in the NSG read.
Shade on me for WK-ing was very meh.
Argument that no one is voting the person he thinks is mislynch bait and therefore he's town for doing so is so LAMIST it hurts.

[Jingle]

I'm generally not that mislynchable, though, so my point in "wondering" is that I'm trying to think about how likely it is scum vote their 8-ball in the first few page. I hadn't actually fleshed out that thought until now though, and since I think it's unlikely they vote their 8-ball (or at least it's unlikely they wagon their 8-ball) it's not actually that town-indicative that I was voted

1. Vivi doing what I thought he would do changed my mind. I don't know what scum decided to do before starting the game, but if I were scum, I would've chosen vivi and I would certainly get a mislynch there. I know I can. The thing is, I read the thread again and I didn't see no one pushing vivi before me, so I have three information pieces to process: one, I already believe that vivi is mislynchable and it's a good pick for 8-ball; two, nobody talked about vivi before me; and three, he's doing what I expect to see coming from scum!vivi. So my conclusion is that

vivi was not chosen as the 8-ball ('cause if the scumteam chose him, I believe they would have at list said something about vivi not being in the thread)

, and that I can push him freely since I believe he's scum. The only one doing what I expected scum would do about vivi is me, and I know I'm not scum, so...

Also, this seems iffy at best to me.

[Jingle]

Jingle, do you think scum!Pintu plays this way after 8-balling CJ?
I don't see the relevance of slayer's gambit

I don't know if he 8-balled CJ. All I have is his assertion that if he were scum he would have 8 balled cj, which is entirely WIFOM if he's scum. What I do see is that he's 'worried' cj is the eightball, and that worry evaporated in less than a page.

And it's not exactly slayers gambit, but saying: 'I haven't done anything town, but you're suspicious for voting me because I haven't done anything town' is pretty damn close. The only difference is that he's not claiming to have outright acted scummy.

[Jingle]

1. So I can't change my perspective about someone? Do I have to believe until the end of the game that CJ was chosen as the 8-ball on D1? I already explained my point of view about that.

2. Fair, but not enough.

3. I don't know what WK is so meh.

4. You got that absolutely wrong. I said that SCUM would be doing that if they chose him as the 8-ball, but

the only person pushing CJ is me

, so I believe that CJ is indeed scum.

You're just voting me 'cause you have nothing better, and that's on you, not me.

p-edit: It clearly says "at least say something about vivi's absence",

never said they would vote him

; there are other ways to make people remember that one slot exists, like an inception way to do it.

You can change opinions. I can find those opinion changes scummy.

White Knighting. You accused me of white knighting CJ when I voted you.

Bold:

I am just voting for you because none of my other scumleads are stronger. Congratulations! Are you saying that I should be scumreading someone else particularly strongly at this point?

[Jingle]

Jingle idk what your point is there. We both speculated about 8-balls...?

I'm saying that it's pretty weird he's saying that CJ is a probable 8 ball target, but has no paranoia about voting there because of it because no one is pushing the slot when you already specced that scum would avoid pushing their 8 ball choice. Regardless of the truth of both guesses, it's at least something that's been brought up, so I would expect town pint to think about it if he really did think CJ was a good 8ball target.

[Jingle]

What do you think of Relly's thought that scum would try to stay away from the 8 ball on D1 pint?

[Jingle]

I said I have done anything at all. You're pretty much misrepping me, since I already explained about the CJ being eightball thing, and making bad interpretations of the rest. You have nothing on me.

I agree that you said you hadn't done much of anything. That's why it's not really slayers gambit, but slayer's gambit adjacent. If there's something you've said that I've misunderstood, please, explain what you meant.

[Jingle]

you get a lot of info out of that lynch

What information is that?

Assume for the moment that I am the D1 lynch and not the 8-ball. What would that tell you?

[Jingle]

I gotta say, I really wish my Jester game would fill and finish already so that I can switch to my Christmas avatar. Your hats are making me jealous.

[Jingle]

Hint Hint.

[Jingle]

even though Jingle described it wrong

I mean... Similar to slayer's gambit. That's pretty much exactly what it is. I don't see how that's describing it wrong. :shrug:

[Jingle]

I still don't know why I'm a robot or why that makes me scum, ftr.

Would love to have an answer that isn't "Every post you've made."

[Jingle]

goose

[Jingle]

I'm gonna be busy most of tomorrow. Sorry guys

[Jingle]

Sorta towny I think?

Why?

I spent half of RPG night killing Dagon and the other half thinking about this game.

On the one hand, my CoC character is now a pile of viscera in a room full of fish people viscera, but on the other hand Dagon has one fewer heads than he used to.

Also, I've decided today is the day I theory dump.

In preparation for that, I would like everyone to claim who they would have chosen as the 8-ball for today ASAP, as well as why.

I'll kick things off with the first half. I'd have chosen GE. I'll go last on the why if you guys will bear with me a moment.

[Jingle]

The why is equally important.

[Jingle]

Would you have chosen yourself, or are you speaking as though you were another person who is scum looking at the gamestate at the end of the day when you said you would choose you?

[Jingle]

For clarification, I want the answer to who you would have chosen if you yourself are scum.

I would like to keep the discussion about who OTHER people are likely to have targeted as scum til after they claim.

[Jingle]

Both works

Aight.

[Jingle]

I’m gonna not get thrown off by the short deadline this time
Jingle what’s your game solve thing
FA does the flip change anything for you?
Nsg where you at

Not a game solve thing, and I'm not going to talk about the theory until everyone has answered the question. Why are you so unconcerned about getting information from everyone?

[Jingle]

Saud, NSG, and FA all need to say who they would have 8 balled and why, btw.

[Jingle]

Why are you so unconcerned about getting information from everyone?

What?


Re: “game solve” vs “theory” I have no clue what it is but I am hoping/assuming that it helps game solve, since it seems to have eaten away at multiple players’ interest in solving the game themselves

How has it eaten away at people's interest in solving the game?

I have asked two questions of everyone. There is absolutely nothing about that that prevents people from scumhunting normally. Suggesting otherwise is very

[Jingle]

didn't give it any thought and it would depend on who my scumbuddy is. assuming i'm just scum alone and everyone else is town then maybe CJ

Why CJ?

[Jingle]

It may just be gamma relly, interesting.

[Jingle]

FA has to answer the question yet.

[Jingle]

And Saudade, but I'm kinda betting replacement there. He feels like a flaker.

[Jingle]

I think he's largely concerned about how everyone sees him, which is probably NAI given how D1 went. I'd like him to be more aggressive about sorting, but he's not my focus atm.

[Jingle]

In post 316, Irrelephant11 wrote:
Sorta towny I think?


Why?

Still waiting on this answer, Relly.

Because everyone, myself included, posted and answer to your question and then just *waited* for you to do your thing. I’m not saying it was your intent to slow the game, but I am saying that it seems to have had that effect anyway.

There were 7 posts between Day start and my question, which was a period of just over 24 hours. The following hour had 8 content related posts.

FA seems to have flaked AND is ignoring the questioning in the first place.

Saudade hasn't posted at all since before I asked, and that was to call me scummy for being busy.

You haven't answered the question I addressed to you at the beginning of that post.

D1 was also full of lurk.

If anything, I have been introducing content, and calling a horse an irrelephant does not make it so, even if you paint it grey.

[Jingle]

You are by definition shading and blaming me. The question is whether you're doing it as scum or town, not whether you intended it to be shade and blame.

Eh. To me it seems like exactly the thing scum would say, because it doesn't really mean anything.

Basically, he entered the thread saying "Hey guys, we should reevaluate after that guy we all thought was scum flipped town." Even ignoring the setup, that's what you should always do in a mafia game. And also, he hasn't done so. If he was town, he had 48 hours to consider who he now thought was scummy. Instead of presenting a new person to suspect, he said 'everyone should reevaluate'.

[Jingle]

Can we do mambo #5?

Also, who would you have eightballed last night and why?

[Jingle]

Gamma is a tough read for me, but he's >rand scum.

NSG/FA townreads.

Saudade is probably town, but also deathtunneling my personality.

That leaves 3.

I do actually have another reason, but it ties into the one thing I don't want discussed until I'm actually ready to share why the questions matter.

[Jingle]

You are right but you'd expect him to be at least upset that I scum read him for what might be his natural tone

This is the opposite of true. I operate better under suspicion as both alignments. The way to piss me off is to ignore me or to insinuate that I'm an idiot and my spec is invalid.

[Jingle]

Do you want proof that I like to be wagoned? Cause I could self meta that shit, but I have a feeling that it's not actually going to change anything.

[Jingle]

Yup. Clearly my fault there's a lack of content.

[Jingle]

Jingle wagons are pretty much always a good idea.

[Jingle]

Also, I doubt this setup is capable of bringing out mad Jingle.

If you would like to see mad Jingle for comparison, Paris Mafia or Organization 13 in my topics are the only recent ones to spring to my mind.

[Jingle]

Zexen, I think? I was the scientist guy. Me and RC got into a pretty nasty fight that I'm not proud of because I reacted really poorly to a dig that I took as a RL dig shortly after he alt hunted me. I was legitimately furious for most of that game.

[Jingle]

It came at a really bad time. I don't think RC knew the pile of bees he was poking, but tl;dr I'd lost a couple close family members IRL and the whole thing set off a pretty nasty reaction from me.

[Jingle]

Not that I'm blaming RC. I was over the line too there and I shouldn't have let what he said get to me the way I did. I also firmly believe that what he said was unintentional, because he seems like he's not the kind of guy to intentionally pour salt in a wound like that.

[Jingle]

Still want that sweet sweet FA answer in my life.

[Jingle]

That’s brilliant. The scumteam gets a kill if the right ball is lynched, and pint WAS LYNCHED! Clearly saudade can’t be scum because he would’ve broken the setup.

[Jingle]

Who would you have 8-balled last night?

And why. Don't forget the why.

[Jingle]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Running out of time in the day again, so I'm done waiting.

Today is the most important day for scum to hit their 8ball target. Hitting today puts them in LYLO, and it's easier for them to hit specific lynches on the LYLO track days than any other days for exactly the same reasons that MYLO usually supports scum. Basically the situation is inverted, scum are the ones that want an anywhere lynch. I don't think I need to explain why LYLO is bad for us.

We want to hit scum badly, but more importantly we want to not hit the eightball, therefore getting everyone's thoughts on who would be 8balled helps to steer the lynch away from that. For that reason, I don't think CJ should be on the table at all today. If he's town, he was the obvious mislynch choice last night and thus the obvious choice to 8ball.

On the other hand, the questions served another purpose. Town had no reason to lie, but without me explaining this, scum had no idea where I was going with the line of questioning, meaning they were far more likely to either tell the truth requiring in depth thinking or to hipfire a name they HADN'T 8 balled, in the hopes that they would be 'cleared' by the eightball being lynched. In the former case, the reasoning demonstrated wouldn't be as surface level. In the latter case the reasoning wouldn't be as reasonable.

Of all the answers, GE's choice of me fits this the best. Yesterday I was a fair townread by most people (or at least appeared to be) except Saudade, and his push on me was both lackluster and going nowhere quickly. Gamma saying he would 8ball me frankly doesn't fit quick town thought responses, meaning it's likely he'd been considering who to 8-ball overnight. It's possible that this is because he as town spent the night phase wondering who scum might try to mislynch, but I think it more likely that he was looking for someone to mislynch over night and his reasoning is likely more complicated than simply people seemed interested. If it was merely that people seemed interested, he'd probably have answered CJ, the actual counterwagon to the town lynch.

Now why does this make him scum? Because he demonstrated a clear lack of understanding/desire to understand the town motivation for the questioning. 845 was a demand for results for my questioning, which if he was town thinking on the same level as me (being on the same level as me, again, is evidenced by his answer) would be obvious.


Additionally, CJ and Saudade's answers are mildly town indicative.

CJ sounds like he's resigned to being a mislynch, Saudade is tunneled on me. Both are consistent and both have the surface level thinking of town answering an unexpected question honestly.

[Jingle]

scum aren't the ones who want an anywhere lynch

FTFM

[Jingle]

That's a point, but IF CJ is scum he still has a partner to find. And hunting the partner is less likely to hit the 8ball and put us in LYLO.

[Jingle]

Not really. Or rather, I could, but I wouldn't believe anything I was saying.

The theory is the only scummy thing I really see from him, but I also don't see anything town to counteract it.

[Jingle]

Can you scumcase NSG?

[Jingle]

[Jingle]

vote count 2.05

cue sports fun fact:

to follow!

Irrelephant11

(0) :

Frozen Angel

(0) :

northsidegal

(1) : Irrelephant11

Jingle

(2) : Gamma Emerald, Saudade

ceejayvinoya

(1) :

Gamma Emerald

(1) : Jingle

Saudade

(0) :

not voting:

Frozen Angel, northsidegal, ceejayvinoya

with 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

day two will end in (expired on 2018-12-15 17:00:00), or earlier automatically if a majority lynch is achieved.

mod notes:

- prodding ceejayvinoya
- quack

CJ is being voted by ghosts and Gamma isn't allowed to unvote. Just saying.

[Jingle]

The longer version of the scumcase is “scum!nsg rapidly loses the ability to maintain deep thought, and her activity drops off a cliff pretty quickly.” And I also think her “I’m just angry with myself” reason to not engage is BS

Her activity looks pretty blanket low. I'm pretty sure that's not alignment indicative, at least rn.

[Jingle]

GDI. I'm having flashbacks to Geriatric Flag.

Gamma, what are your reads?

[Jingle]

I lynched 3 town pretty much by myself and lost.

[Jingle]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=74422

[Jingle]

Why?

[Jingle]

VOTE: Frozen Angel

I kind of think this is town, but I kind of agree that it's also the least likely slot to have been 8 balled. And I kind of think everyone is town at this point. Fuck. I don't even know. NSG, I'm trusting you.

[Jingle]

I have cold feet because I don't think I have a good read on the gamestate. I'm going to deadline sheep the person I think is most town. If that gets me scumread, so be it.

[Jingle]

UNVOTE:

Okay.

Shake up the thread please.

[Jingle]

I've got some RL bullshit I'm dealing with, but I will be around before deadline.

Still think Saud tunnel on me is wrong town. NSG still strongest townread. TBH, I'd probably deadline lynch anyone but CJ at this point though.

[Jingle]

VOTE: Penguin

I’ll be back to switch my vote before deadline if needed, but I really don’t think it’s saudade. Why tunnel on one of the most active/townread players D1 as scum?

[Jingle]

Why do most people seem to want to vote off wagon

VOTE: Penguin

I’ll be back to switch my vote before deadline if needed, but I really don’t think it’s saudade. Why tunnel on one of the most active/townread players D1 as scum?

I mean “to get townread while your partner does the dirty work” is an answer to that question if the other scum is anyone on wagon

5/6 townies voting the last townie while both scum vote elsewhere is extremely, extremely rare
I’m willing to bet the game on the idea that it’s never Penguin/Saudade
VOTE: suka

day two will end in (expired on 2018-12-17 17:00:00), or earlier automatically if a majority lynch is achieved.

VOTE: Irrelephant

I'm going back to what I thought when I still felt I had a handle on this game.

If I flip 8ball I'm like 90% sure it's relly here, that jump to make me the only really viable wagon is gross as fuck, especially when it's a jump to voting not me.

[Jingle]

I'll vote Suka before deadline if I'm the only other option, but I really think lynching the CJ slot today is dumb.

[Jingle]

Why? PP?

[Jingle]

VOTE: Gamma

Fingers crossed.

[Jingle]

Oh right. This is a game.

Modding duties tonight, rereading this tomorrow. I promise.

[Jingle]

Agreed that NSG is town.

Still feel like Saudade as scum picks an easier fight than me.

I'm not lynching Suka slot in potential MYLO. We can come back to that when we get a scumflip. That leaves me with a PoE of Relly/Penguin.

I'm gonna review the partner options, but clearly my paranoia about a Relly/GE team was unfounded. Not sure if that means Relly is town, or if I was just reading too much into the interactions there.

[Jingle]

Jingle, you’re townreading Saudade for scumreading you (“picks an easier fight”) but I don’t feel like the two of you have really fought at all
What makes you feel like scum!him would pick someone else?

Saudade started scumreading me on P6. I had already demonstrated that I was completely comfortable in a back and forth (See: day one push on relly) and I was probably the most active player in the thread at that point. (Not gonna check, but if not I was definitely not an easy push.) Enough players in the thread seemed to know me from reputation or play that I was an unlikely D1 8ball, so I doubt that his tunnel was in hopes of being able to get the nightkill anyway after making a bad choice. Posts 150, 159, 194, and 198 all seem pretty confrontational, but none of them have that underlying feeling of trying not be noticed I expect from bad scum making the same plays. The fact that he held strong to a scumread on me instead of transitioning to another read doesn't seem like good scum either.

Also wasn't entirely true, since I want Jingle's reason for not scum reading Suka today...so...yeah.

p-edit

Um...yeah.

It's not a reason to not scumread Suka, it's a reason to not lynch Suka. I still think that if town she's likely to be the 8ball. I'm not scumreading her, but that's not the reason she's off the table for me right now.

[Jingle]

NSG, why is Saudade town?

Still sticking with Gamma/Saudade as scum?

What?

[Jingle]

I don’t like this setup as much as I wish I did

Don't think it's a setup issue so much as a player list issue, tbh. It'd probably run better at not Christmastime as well, because most people are busier than normal this time of year.

[Jingle]

Am I not reading you asking Suka if she's still scumreading Gamma?

[Jingle]

So do you legitimately think Suka may have forgotten that Gamma was the lynch yesterday and is still scumreading/claiming to scumread him? If so, why? What does that say about her alignment?

[Jingle]

You asked if she was scumreading Gamma with Saudade after Gamma flipped town. I don't know what the fuck that post is, and I'm trying to understand why you made it.

What did you glean from her reaction? What other possible reaction do you see coming from that question? Cause from where I stand that whole interaction reads as fake as hell.

[Jingle]

I could come to the conclusion that she would provide literally the only reasonable explanation (that the reads weren't linked to each other.)

I could also come to the conclusion that she would provide that explanation before you made the post.

The pertinent question to me is why would you make the post in the first place, not why would she respond the way she did. Like, either you think it's reasonable that she could explain it, in which case there's an obvious explanation, or you don't and it's just scummy. In either case, why the question?

And for that matter, why don't you believe the explanation?

[Jingle]

What other possible reaction do you see coming from that question?

Still waiting on an answer to this, btw.

[Jingle]

Attempting to sort you is obnoxious? Fuck that noise.

VOTE: PP

[Jingle]

Jingle are the interactions with PP here serious?

Nah, I decided to go back to RVS on D3 for no discernible reason.

[Jingle]

Attempting to sort you is obnoxious? Fuck that noise.

VOTE: PP

This is so fake.

VOTE: Jingle

Suka tomorrow.

Okay. How is attempting to sort you, questioning your reads, or calling you out on ignoring/avoiding questions blatantly scum indicative?

How is refusing to answer to your reasoning town indicative?

Your scum is showing.

[Jingle]

I don't understand why Gamma flip doesn't change your read.

Why would it?

Saudade/Gamma is most likely scum.

Saudade was an actual scumread. Gamma wasn't. Why are you townreading Saudade?

@Jingle what part of this exchange didn’t make sense to you, again?

The point of it.

It's not that any of the posts don't make sense. It's that posting them in the first place doesn't make any sense. It's the difference between sorting somebody and pretending to sort somebody.

[Jingle]

Okay. How is attempting to sort you, questioning your reads, or calling you out on ignoring/avoiding questions blatantly scum indicative?

You weren't doing this.

You're obnoxious.

[Jingle]

At the risk of sounding even more like Penguin’s partner, the point is obvious imo. Suka had a scumteam read. One flipped town, and he still wants to lynch the other (with no explanation of who the other scum might be). So Penguin challenged him on it

You see... This just suggests to me that you haven't read Suka's ISO at all.

Also, Penguin challenged him on :nothing:. Penguin asked a question that had a single nonindicative possible answer INSTEAD of challenging him on it.

[Jingle]

At the risk of sounding even more like Penguin’s partner, the point is obvious imo.

Suka had a scumteam read. One flipped town, and he still wants to lynch the other (with no explanation of who the other scum might be).

So Penguin challenged him on it

What should Penguin have said to Suka, in a world where Penguin is town who disbelieves Suka’s reads?

I dunno, maybe something like the thing you actually said instead of a question that doesn't actually say that. Or, if he was particularly good at argumentation, he could realize that addressing a point about why someone is scum to that person is a waste of time.

Hiding it as an attempt to read Suka isn't a town response.

[Jingle]

have you played with Penguin before?

I think so? I think he was in smith's cop game, but honestly I don't think he mattered or did anything.

Aside from suspecting Suka is 8-ball, how are you reading Suka?

My guess is probably town but I'm not married to the read. There's absolutely nothing in the ISO that couldn't come from scum, but if I'm wrong on you, Suka is probably the other scum.

[Jingle]

Yup, double checked. He was in that game but replaced out pretty early after doing pretty much nothing. I was a mostly universal townread until mechanical PoE killed me as scum.

[Jingle]

Saudade started scumreading me on P6. I had already demonstrated that I was completely comfortable in a back and forth (See: day one push on relly) and I was probably the most active player in the thread at that point. (Not gonna check, but if not I was definitely not an easy push.) Enough players in the thread seemed to know me from reputation or play that I was an unlikely D1 8ball, so I doubt that his tunnel was in hopes of being able to get the nightkill anyway after making a bad choice. Posts 150, 159, 194, and 198 all seem pretty confrontational, but none of them have that underlying feeling of trying not be noticed I expect from bad scum making the same plays. The fact that he held strong to a scumread on me instead of transitioning to another read doesn't seem like good scum either.

This. Also, lack of a convincing case otherwise. I'm not looking forward to dealing with the derp tunnel on me, but I do think it comes from town more often than not.

[Jingle]

Yup, double checked. He was in that game but replaced out pretty early after doing pretty much nothing. I was a mostly universal townread until mechanical PoE killed me as scum.

You mean the game where, besides ETL's tunnel, I was townread to where you had to take me from asking your opinion on your plan to slowly moving me down your reads list due to activity until I had to replace out for reasons I can't discuss. Good game. Glad Ankamius took my place and got it to the point where you were mechanically killed as cum.

Awesome.

Yup. Your ISO was voting 3 town and then replacing out after having like no activity. Are you saying that's your towngame and I should just assume you're an idiot?

i am hard shifting my penguinpower read to town

Why?

[Jingle]

Link?

I'll read it tomorrow.

[Jingle]

So... AFAICT, the only real difference between town Penguin in smiths game and scum penguin in Boba Tea is that town penguin took longer to replace out.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=76042

Is that what makes him town here, or is there something I'm missing?

[Jingle]

Also:

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[Jingle]

?

I've explained why I think he's town. Where do you think I'm wrong?

[Jingle]

Why would I default to paranoia when there are three people who are scummier? It's possible I'm wrong on NSG too, but I'm also not going to drop my read there without a reason.

[Jingle]

Yup. Your ISO was voting 3 town and then replacing out after having like no activity. Are you saying that's your towngame and I should just assume you're an idiot?

If you actually end up being town, you need to examine how you view things. Like...hard re-examine.

Maybe examine a town game of mine where I didn't have to replace out for starters...that should be an obvious one though unless I should just assume you're an idiot?

i got a refresher on what his scumgame looks like and i don't think this is it.

Not a great example. I had to be force replaced in that game by the mod due to outside influence.

NSG provided a meta defense of you based on a game where you replaced out as scum, and I was evaluating it in the context of how both it and another game where you replaced out as town were similar and different, but nice try. They both look really similar to this game, and I conclude from that that either NSG should elaborate on what exactly is the behavior I should be looking for from town you or that I don't believe the meta is very meaningful at all.

I'm not really going to jump through the hoops of doing the kind of research I'd need to do to develop a real meta read on you by myself for this game. Partially because I don't have the time right now and partially because I don't care enough about this game. Instead, I'm going to read you based on your actions in this game. If NSG thinks I'm wrong, I'm willing to consider that and reevaluate but I don't see someone actively avoiding attempts to sort them, faking an attempt to sort others, and defaulting to a scumread on me because I'm trying to sort you as town indicative in any way, shape, or form.

[Jingle]

Yeah, I'm pretty sold on Penguin/Relly here.

NSG, come back and talk to me about why Penguin is town.

[Jingle]

Yeah, I'm pretty sold on Penguin/Relly here.

NSG, come back and talk to me about why Penguin is town.

Says PP/Elephant is scum...doesn’t explain.

Wants NSG to explain townread on PP even though she has.



How is this not obv!scum?

NSG said that she read a game where you were town and thinks this is your town game. Unless your town meta is blatant misreps and looking exactly like your scumgame, I don't see why and would like her to explain that. I asked what particularly makes you town a while ago and she hasn't responded since.

I've made it pretty damn clear why you're scum. Hard townread on NSG. Strong townread on Saudade. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that either I think Suka is towny or relly is scummy in order to think you two is probably the team. It's also pretty clear you're not actually trying to read me.

Nice misrep though.

[Jingle]

Is there a chance in hell nsg is scum here? Asking for a friend
Same question to all other players, actually. If we can rule nsg out as scum 100% then I think she should decide the lynch

^Scumclaim.

[Jingle]

Also:

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Could you case the slot please?

Sure!

Here's a handy dandy link to my case:

viewtopic.php?p=10572999&user_select%5B ... #p10572999

[Jingle]

Is there a chance in hell nsg is scum here? Asking for a friend
Same question to all other players, actually. If we can rule nsg out as scum 100% then I think she should decide the lynch

^Scumclaim.

I mean she thinks I’m scum and I’m saying I’d like her to decide the lynch so I’m not sure what about that post you’re scumreading

~24 hours to deadline, you decide you’re going to abdicate responsibility for the lynch to a single player who was MIA at the time. Also, the post is both buddying and feeling out possible paranoia on nsg.

Compared: supposed town reasoning: My townread is wrong about my alignment but I think we should put the lynch solely in her hands anyway.

Hence: Scumclaim.

[Jingle]

That was literally the post after a VC. With the deadline in it. While tw just sent a mass prod referencing the deadline.

[Jingle]

Looks exactly like disengaged nsg in RC’s large to me.

[Jingle]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77055

RC's Large. It's garbage for reading, but the relevant information is that since before this game NSG was disengaged in that game. Her activity came in spurts, was good in those spurts, but quickly faded into nothingness. Specifically, look at nsg when MemeMen had a parity cop result between her and NR. (posts in the 6200 range most important.

[Jingle]

Jingle - do you think it is?

Not in a vacuum. I probably post more as scum than town overall, but it's way more indicative of investment in the game/spare time than town/scum.

[Jingle]

Can you take a minute to explain why Penguin is town?

[Jingle]

Yup. Your ISO was voting 3 town and then replacing out after having like no activity. Are you saying that's your towngame and I should just assume you're an idiot?

If you actually end up being town, you need to examine how you view things. Like...hard re-examine.

Maybe examine a town game of mine where I didn't have to replace out for starters...that should be an obvious one though unless I should just assume you're an idiot?

i got a refresher on what his scumgame looks like and i don't think this is it.

Not a great example. I had to be force replaced in that game by the mod due to outside influence.

NSG provided a meta defense of you based on a game where you replaced out as scum, and I was evaluating it in the context of how both it and another game where you replaced out as town were similar and different, but nice try. They both look really similar to this game, and I conclude from that that either NSG should elaborate on what exactly is the behavior I should be looking for from town you or that I don't believe the meta is very meaningful at all.

I'm not really going to jump through the hoops of doing the kind of research I'd need to do to develop a real meta read on you by myself for this game. Partially because I don't have the time right now and partially because I don't care enough about this game. Instead, I'm going to read you based on your actions in this game. If NSG thinks I'm wrong, I'm willing to consider that and reevaluate but I don't see someone actively avoiding attempts to sort them, faking an attempt to sort others, and defaulting to a scumread on me because I'm trying to sort you as town indicative in any way, shape, or form.

So... AFAICT, the only real difference between town Penguin in smiths game and scum penguin in Boba Tea is that town penguin took longer to replace out.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=76042

Is that what makes him town here, or is there something I'm missing?

Saudade started scumreading me on P6. I had already demonstrated that I was completely comfortable in a back and forth (See: day one push on relly) and I was probably the most active player in the thread at that point. (Not gonna check, but if not I was definitely not an easy push.) Enough players in the thread seemed to know me from reputation or play that I was an unlikely D1 8ball, so I doubt that his tunnel was in hopes of being able to get the nightkill anyway after making a bad choice. Posts 150, 159, 194, and 198 all seem pretty confrontational, but none of them have that underlying feeling of trying not be noticed I expect from bad scum making the same plays. The fact that he held strong to a scumread on me instead of transitioning to another read doesn't seem like good scum either.

This. Also, lack of a convincing case otherwise. I'm not looking forward to dealing with the derp tunnel on me, but I do think it comes from town more often than not.

Attempting to sort you is obnoxious? Fuck that noise.

VOTE: PP

This is so fake.

VOTE: Jingle

Suka tomorrow.

Okay. How is attempting to sort you, questioning your reads, or calling you out on ignoring/avoiding questions blatantly scum indicative?

How is refusing to answer to your reasoning town indicative?

Your scum is showing.

[Jingle]

What she's trying to say is she doesn't want to break site rules.

I'm specifically not looking for the game she's actually talking about because of it.

[Jingle]

The acumclaim isn’t the paranoia, but the timing of the paranoia combined with the implication that nsg is incapable of being wrongtown when you as town would know she’s wrong about you.

Why am I not town, nsg?

[Jingle]

Btw, I think I’m probably the only lynch that has a chance of leading to a win here, but I’m going to make scum burn through every last shred of towncred they have to get it.

[Jingle]

I flip green and the game isn’t over, you lynch penguin?

[Jingle]

Not gonna be around to change my vote, and the only lynch that isn't mine that might go through is Saudade's.

I suppose it's slightly less likely he's the eightball than I am with the tunnel PP has here.

VOTE: Saudade

Good luck town.

Hope you can figure this out after I die.

[Jingle]

Honestly, I'm pretty sure the setup needs super active players or to be run as a blitz/marathon game. Your moderation was fine. <3

Also, just to be clear for the future: I have literally no idea how anyone townreads Penguin's play this game, which is likely a playstyle thing. I do think his actions were by far the scummiest in the thread, and the brief meta dive I did and then lied about doing led me to the same conclusion. :shrug:

Go ahead and release the sharks, ducky.

[Jingle]

The phrasing of the post was scummy as hell. The timing really wasn't. I wasn't going to be around to hammer otherwise, and in this setup Lynch > No Lynch, even if the lynch is on a townread.

Also, I kind of went over it in the deadthread, but I think optimal play for this setup is to not bus, aim for hitting the eightball on D2, and let town lead the other lynches. You should 8ball scum only if they're sunk or if you're in LYLO.

As town, never No Lynch and pretty much ignore the mechanics. Not lynching someone out of fear they're the eightball (which I was trying to get everyone to do) just means you're not scumhunting effectively.

[Jingle]

Jingle - do you think it is?

Not in a vacuum. I probably post more as scum than town overall, but it's way more indicative of investment in the game/spare time than town/scum.

This gave me certainty you were scum, Jingle. I was looking for either a “yeah I post more as town” (in which case I would have looked to verify) or “no it’s not AI”
The “don’t suspect me for my high post count!” defensive stance of this post removed any doubts I had

It actually is slightly scum indicative for me, because me being disengaged probably means I either don't care about the game or feel like I don't need to contribute to make my team win, both of which happen more often as town. On the other hand, this was not a high activity game for me it just looked high activity by comparison to the rest of the thread . Also, super weird to me that self meta is considered valid now.

[Jingle]

I would never 8-ball no lynch in 5p LYLO, btw. It's a win more move, in that it only benefits you if you're probably going to win the game regardless of what you do. Comparatively, 8-balling one of the scum is insurance that keeps you in LYLO if they are lynched, which is coincidentally the only way you might lose.

8 ball literally doesn't matter in 3P LYLO, so I guess you 8 ball no lynch, but if town can't manage a lynch in 3P LYLO then scum should be winning hard anyway.

[Jingle]

I would quote it but I can't find it on a quick skim.

NSG's idea about having the scumteam choose the eightball during the day and only going to night when an actual NK is going to happen is probably a good change to the setup. Nightphase downtime is a great way to kill the momentum of a game which potentially hurts both teams and definitely hurts the fun of the game as a whole.

[Jingle]

Probably not. If the town puts someone in quickhammer range, scum probably isn't too worried about them changing their minds immediately.