Starcraft Mafia -- Game Over!

[Varsoon]

This game started already, huh?

[Varsoon]

Was literally just egoposting last night--that's not meant to be a serious entry to the game by any measure and your vote on me treating it as such is garbage.
I'll be getting to this today.
Give me a bit.

[Varsoon]

What's even remotely good about the votes on me, Shoshin?

[Varsoon]

Hey Irrelephant, want to policy lynch Varsoon?

What's the policy, even?

[Varsoon]

It's kind of baffling that you propose a policy lynch on me and when Irrel + The Worst deny it outright and ask you why
You hard dodge
Then post this sort of thing:

I think I should be higher on the town list, the worst.

For what reason even?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Skitter

I had similar feelings.

This is spineless.
You asked Nauci for a read just to sheep it.
I see no trajectory that'd lead you to have this opinion on skitter, even.

[Varsoon]

^ Like you say you 'had similar feelings' but you haven't mentioned skitter once before in your ISO.

[Varsoon]

This is hype.

So Varsoon I wonder if this finally the game where we're on the same team at like the 7th attempt?? Don't let me down man.

I hope so, but I don't see myself living very long in this one. :/

[Varsoon]

Yeah gonna just go ahead and fly in the face of all you bootlickers
VOTE: Shoshin

I'm also fairly disgusted at the frequency in which people have been handing out townreads like candy.

[Varsoon]

Thoughts otherwise:
Nauci keeps using their vote as pressure on players that aren't here rather than sticking to a wagon and dealing with the possible interactions that come from it. I don't like this.
Mitilos and Skitter are parsing out their thoughts plenty and I like that, though I'm still trying to make heads or tails of them.
The Worst truly is The Worst but at the very least their play IS consistent and reminds me of their town play, so I don't feel horrible about their slot.

What's up you cool babies?

[Varsoon]

You didn't even bother answering any of the points I raised, you just went straight for the vote.
Shoshin, I thought you were better.

[Varsoon]

All his posts are in English, I have no trouble reading him.

[Varsoon]

I provided plenty of reasons for my scumread.
You just saying that there's not any is literally wrong.

Once again, Shoshin
You're either scum or your judgment is flawed.
Which is it this time?

[Varsoon]

His vote on me feels thoughtless, like he's just trying to go make an against-the-grain vote instead of having actual reasons to suspect me as scum (there's none, since I'm town and when I'm town it's fairly obvious to anyone who has played wiht me before, and that includes Varsoon).

His vote on me feels thoughtless, like he's just trying to go make an against-the-grain vote instead of having actual reasons to suspect me as scum (there's none)

actual reasons to suspect me as scum (there's none)

^ Like you say you 'had similar feelings' but you haven't mentioned skitter once before in your ISO.

VOTE: Skitter

I had similar feelings.

This is spineless.
You asked Nauci for a read just to sheep it.
I see no trajectory that'd lead you to have this opinion on skitter, even.

It's kind of baffling that you propose a policy lynch on me and when Irrel + The Worst deny it outright and ask you why
You hard dodge
Then post this sort of thing:

I think I should be higher on the town list, the worst.

For what reason even?

Hey Irrelephant, want to policy lynch Varsoon?

What's the policy, even?

What's even remotely good about the votes on me, Shoshin?

[Varsoon]

So refusing to engage with people is 'obviously' your town play?

[Varsoon]

The only one who can prove that you're a bad player is you.

Where do you see me attacking any particular town reads here?
I just feel the overabundance of townreads is too much and very likely not genuine/reliable.

[Varsoon]

Furthermore, me taking umbrage with people having easy townreads isn't even a scumtell or a towntell, it's literally what any player should do regardless of align when, within 6 pages, there are over a dozen thrown out 'this person is town' naked reads.

[Varsoon]

I don't think you've got the depth of meta knowledge to truly understand how I'd play as either alignment.
You don't know why I'm the Scatman, but you'll sure find out.
I'm on the same page with Mitilos here, actually, I'm really peeved by the fact that, instead of engaging with me, you flat denied my accusations/problems with your slot and instead went for "TOWN VARSOON WOULD DO THIS, SCUM VARSOON WOULD DO THAT", as if trying to bait me to play in some different way to curry favor with you.
Fuck that.
You're not going to box in my play, nor will I change it to appease you, nor will I back down from my most informed and passionate read just because they want to situate it as some out of game beef.

P-EDIT:
@Irrel: Even if I personally don't think Shoshin is a great player, other people readily acknowledge that; that's what I'm speaking towards in 205. I thought Shoshin, based on the way people talk about Shoshin the Legendary Labrynth Slayer, 100% never mislynched anyone, Shoshin the Immaculate, might be a bit better. Guess someone's wrong. Probably me. Shoshin's great.

[Varsoon]

It'd be a different story if your votes weren't everywhere and baseless,
If your rationale for voting wasn't flimsy and subject to change at a whim,
If you weren't propping up bald votes on someone you're clamoring for a policy lynch on,
and if you'd actually engaged with any of my points raised against you.

Based on the one game history that I actually have with you, you're far more methodical and nuanced as town. Even if you didn't like my play, you wouldn't be playing around my slot in this way.
That's a single game sample size, though, so I may be wrong, but this is the highest confidence read that I've got right now.

P-EDIT:
1. They remain poor votes because they can just hang there on my wagon when I do post and come under no scrutiny when I flip town because 'oh they were just pressuring him and didnt like what he posted'. They provide little to no context for the vote and absolutely no interaction with my slot. You've solely read into them as 'pressure to get a slot to perform', when that doesn't seem to be the case for them in the least. I literally just said that I was going to catch up and get in game as well, so it's not as if I was lurking--I literally hadn't even fucking read the game yet.

2. Why didn't you respond to the two times people asked you about policy lynching me before, then? If it was just a joke, why'd you let it sit on the table like that?

3. This IS where I think we deviate highly based on Meta. Even with players who I've played with in every single game, I would not trust them to be able to come to an accurate read on me within the first 5 pages, nor would I openly call them out on it when they didn't. What does this actually even tell you about the Worst?

4. You never voiced your 'similar feelings' in the game thread, so there's no means of verifying that you're not just hopping to a sheep on skitter for purely duplicitous reasons. It's also questionable that you think Skitter may be scum for sheeping you but you then hard-sheep Nacui. It's entirely spineless because if you had felt justified in your issues regarding Skitter, you'd have voted there yourself. You intentionally waited for someone else to vote there in order to see that it was a safe stance to take, because at least one other player would agree with you. You can glitz up pocketing players as 'having strong feelings that resonate with other players' but if your feelings were so strong in the first place, I should've seen appropriate discourse that reflected that, highly likely to include a vote. I didn't.

I voted you

because I wanted you to answer my questions

and you went for a vote on me before ever answering them. In fact, you were VERY ADAMANT that you didn't want to engage with me under the excuse that it would 'clog the thread with meaningless back and forth' and until other players pressured you to actually answer them, you would never have. You proposing that I don't have reasons to suspect you feels heavily like you projecting here; you don't have reasons to suspect me and you voted me without providing responses.

P-EDIT: I'm fucking sick of people positioning my play as something they can't possibly engage with because of out of game reasons.
If I'm that much of a cancer that people can't stand to play with me because I play in SUCH A FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT WAY or whatever the shit
I'll just stop signing up for games or something, goddamn
UNVOTE:
This whole thing pisses me off.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon [redacted, not because of site rules, just because]
I'll let this play out for a bit before I share that

Just share it.
I'm sick of this nonsense.

Okay well I'm not here to make things *more personal*
[for the crowd, varsoon vs. shoshin has gotten heated before]

but I am here to say that Shoshin is scum .01% of the time here and you should find someone else to wagon
I am not yet here to say the same about you, so I'll let you know after your scumhunting moves beyond this silly overly personal thing

Which townreads do you think are bad? Are you scumreading anyone besides shoshin that has received many townreads? Or anyone who has given many townreads? Seems like a pointless thing to say (and indeed anti-town) unless you feel like it *actually applies* to the players in this game

It's not even a personal thing.
Thanks for taking Shoshin's garbage 'get out of being scumread free' card at face value
I think I'll start doing that now
Sign up for a bunch of games with people who don't think well of me
And write off their scumreads as 'Boohoo we play differently any possible critique they have of me is just a personal feud that'll clog the thread'
Jesus

[Varsoon]

I'll have to go back through to tell you the townreads that stick out--what was more important to me was just that there were a ton of them compared to most games I play.

[Varsoon]

@Shoshin: I'd prefer that you actually continue to play games with me and we both learn and grow from the experience, instead of going "This is something we can't play around" and then just ignoring something that may be a critical issue in both of our approaches to the game.

[Varsoon]

I've scooped all the townreads up to my actual point of entry, going to post it soonish with my thoughts.

[Varsoon]

15 Shoshin townreads Irrelephant immediately (If pocketing, it's clearly worked, Irrel thinks Shoshin is 99.9% town here as of the most recent page)
23 Irrel says Creature is town, then takes it back when Creature claims survivor.
24 Shoshin says Mitillos is town-ish.
27 Shoshin reiterates that Irrel and Mitllos are town, doesn't provide rationale for Irrel but does for Mitillos.
30 Irrel says Shoshin and The Worst are town, posits skitter as more-likely town than not
70 Skitter comes to the conclusion that Mitilos can be 'town for now'. There were earlier talks of low-key town reads from skitter but I didn't take those as the bold townread this is
84 Skitter calls basically everyone who's posted town besides The Worst: mtilos, irrel, creature, nauci, shoshin
89 Shoshin calls Nancy town. I actually really don't like this one because it seems to be indicating to Nancy that 'this is a repeat of Labyrinth, remember that one game I was town, yes, I am town here'.
94 AlmostNancy calls Shoshin and TheWorst town.
98 TheWorst calls Shoshin town.
117 Keyser townleads Shoshin, early recognizes lots of Townreads coming from Shoshin and TW.
125 Saudade calls TheWorst town.
140 AlmostNancy's other head sheeps the first on a Shoshin TR.
146 Skitter calls AlmostNancy town
171 Skitter voices a strong town read on Mitillos
192 TheWorst calls AlmostNancy town

So If I'm keeping a Town-vote-count here:

Shoshin (5):

Irrelephant, Skitter, AlmostNancy, TheWorst, Keyser

TheWorst (3):

Irrelephant, AlmostNancy, Saudade

AlmostNancy (3):

Shoshin, Skitter, The Worst

Irrelephant (2):

Shoshin, Skitter

Mitillos (2):

Shoshin, Skitter

Creature (1):

Skitter

Nauti (1):

Skitter

So, Skitter and Shoshin obviously hand out the most townreads here.
In the case of both of them, I don't really understand how they've come to all of these conclusions.
Shoshin's garnered the most townreads, and this is within 200 posts--8 pages.
Look at that, though; there's more TOWNREADS given than votes--17 townreads, only 10 votes in that time (and this is only counting hard townreads, though my count may be off on votes)
That's wild to me. That's a clear indicator that someone's not being genuine.
And if you look at the data, it's got to either be skitter or shoshin.
Here's where this gets really wild:
Shosin's got townreads on most the players townreading herself.
Skitter's not being townread by anyone but is still giving out a ton of townreads.
I don't really know what to make of it, to be honest.
And I think I'm getting way more onto having more information than analysis here, but
I don't think Shoshin's reads are genuinely informed. I think Shoshin's townreads are hugely based on how players are reading Shoshin and how much Shoshin is capable of influencing others by handing out TRs.
That's what I was feeling when I voted for Shoshin. That's what I still feel now.
What do you all think?

P-EDIT:
I want to be clear that my aggression re:Shoshin is entirely at their play. Shoshin's a good dude outside of game and I apologize if they take any of this personally, that's not my intent.
These recent votes make me want to rejoin the Shoshin wagon but I feel very biased and I'm worried this might just be a ploy to drag me back in with the level of vitriol I had before.
I want to really sit down and assess this.

@Performer: It's entirely in Shoshin's town!wheelhouse to write someone off as scum like that, from my experience. I'm trying to parse if it's actually Shoshin's intent to lean into that kind of play or if it's just them being town and making a poor judgment call, influenced by bad blood.

@Xtoxm: What do you think about the way that Shoshin's handled their TRs, though? How is Shoshin scum for TRs but not Skitter as well?

[Varsoon]

P.edit. I think you’re barking up the wrong tree, you shoild be cataloging scumreads instead. Scum frequently has a disproportionate ratio of scumreads v townreads.

I'm not re-reading those first 10 pages ever again
If you wanna do that, be my guest, though it's hard to parse who has a legitimate scumread and not just 'bad vibes' or is voting someone for pressure.

[Varsoon]

the caveat on my reads is that I have townleaned friends who do not deserve it before because I like them

When you post stuff like this, Irrel, it feels like you're scum giving yourself wiggle room to later be okay with a lynch on your townreads, 'cus you were just 'friendreading' them and could be wrong.
:/

[Varsoon]

I have no idea how anyone has a confident townread on you, Irrel.

[Varsoon]

I also think that pushing for an 'unbreakable townblock' on page 12 before any flips is really, really premature.

[Varsoon]

But that's clearly because I am threatened scum who must undermine your town efforts to consolidate power.
Definitely.
It's not because I suspect that there's scum in the block.

[Varsoon]

You've got access to PTs that I am not in.
That's the first thing that comes to mind.
Via PT access, you've either convinced people you are town or you're just in a masonry.
I do suspect that at least one of Irrel, Shoshin, AlmostNancy, and TheWorst is scum, yes.
Probably only one, though, tbh.
I actually see Irrel as hard-softing mason on you right now with his whole 'if you do not believe me, lynch me first' play.

@Mitillos: I still annoyed. Doesn't matter if Irrel is townreading me if I think they're pushing bad ideas.

[Varsoon]

I do suspect that at least one of Irrel, Shoshin, AlmostNancy, and TheWorst is scum, yes.

Why?

I don't believe in blocks this early, I've modded (and played in) too many games where scum have infiltrated D1 townblocks and coasted on it hard.

@Varsoon: That doesn't address the defensiveness, though. If you're annoyed at someone who is townreading you but otherwise wrong about someone else, where exactly does the "I am threatened scum" line come from? Also, which one from those four are you currently suspecting? Is it still Shoshin, or?

I think Shoshin/Irrel will actually sort itself before we even get close to LYLO, so I'm actually not all that worried and I'd really prefer we lynch outside of them today.

[Varsoon]

To follow that up and answer the other bit, Mitillos:
It was kind of a pre-emptive reposte to what I felt would be a likely dig at me.

[Varsoon]

@Nauci: Baiting someone into exploding, especially when you know that player explodes and looks bad for it as town, is not great play and, is, in fact, really scummy play.

[Varsoon]

You can talk up all you like with the 'provoking responses' but when the reads garnered from the responses are just tooled to one's liking, it's not an inherently town strategy.

[Varsoon]

This is why Slayers Gambit does not work, by the by.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, why do you treat early, 2-3 votewagons as if they must be accurate reads, or require extensive justification, or are in danger of leading to your lynch?

The fact that you're already talking about how you'd flip from having 2 page <10 votes on you gives me bad vibes, but maybe we just have wildly different early game philosophy. What's yours?

So do votes matter or don't they?
I'm of the mind they do.
So I will respond to them accordingly.

[Varsoon]

@Nauci: Baiting someone into exploding, especially when you know that player explodes and looks bad for it as town, is not great play and, is, in fact, really scummy play.

That's not what I did, nor is it what Nauci's talking about.

You literally called for my policy lynch on D1.
Did you not think I would respond to that?

[Varsoon]

Not even D1, PAGE 1.

[Varsoon]

Whatever.
I'm done worrying about this game and I'm just going to sheep Shoshin until we win.
Zzz.
VOTE: Performer

[Varsoon]

Hey Irrelephant, want to policy lynch Varsoon?

Yawn.
Whatever.
You've never mislynched anyone before, why start now?
I'm just gonna follow you until we win.

[Varsoon]

Yeah it's a fantastic plan, you guys have a rock solid townbloc, I'm just jealous I'm not in it, let's just win.

[Varsoon]

Performer's double-back onto Shoshin while parroting my reads right after I fell off the wagon seems like reason enough.
When Shoshin flipped town, I'd be the one to catch the rap for it and Performer could sneak off into the shadows, having successfully got a lynch on someone that about half of town reads as town.

[Varsoon]

@Skitter: Doesn't matter what my thoughts are, I don't understand how other people play, and, therefore, can not come to an accurate read on them.
It's much better play for me to put my trust into Shoshin, who has never mislynched anyone before and who will lead us to certain victory.

[Varsoon]

It's all good, man. Just sheep out Shoshin here, trust me.

[Varsoon]

And provide some reads elsewhere if you can. What are your thoughts on the game outside of Me/Shoshin?

[Varsoon]

I'd actually also be more inclined to believe people are lying about the strength of their reads instead of actually that confident in their townreads that early.
But I generally play with players who are willing to reassess their reads constantly and don't put a ton of stock into page 10 reads.

[Varsoon]

Mine, I think.

Rude.

[Varsoon]

But I generally play with players who are willing to reassess their reads constantly and don't put a ton of stock into page 10 reads.

I'm constantly reassessing reads. But I think there's more than enough information so far to find town/scum among the active players.

That's good. I have good confidence that you'll find 'em.
That's why I'm following you.

[Varsoon]

Lol @ having 2 strong instant scum reads in a large game. Get ove4 yourself.

I'm glad you decided to respond to pressure with great contributions and sortable content that makes it easy to town read you

Hey maybe don't be a prat like this.

[Varsoon]

Besides, Performer makes me uncomfortable for reasons that I've articulated but can't really do beyond that, so I'm good with following you there.

[Varsoon]

@Skitter: Elaboration on all of your reads would be nice, preferably.
And I've decided that Shoshin is lock-town here and I'll follow them.
My thoughts and reads are compromised, given that my playstyle is so different from anyone else's, so it's impossible for me to come to a correct read on them.
So it's much better to put my stock in someone who is level headed, decisive, and has a 100% record of never mislynching.

[Varsoon]

A thought: Nancy once called me "shamelessly bad," "atrocious," and "a blight on the ecosystem" in the middle of a game, and maybe other things I forgot about? It was quite harsh. But now we're friends? So I hope that all the players who dislike me will one day come to enjoy my playstyle.

I'm giving it a chance for sure.
Show me the light.

[Varsoon]

@Skitter: Doesn't matter what my thoughts are, I don't understand how other people play, and, therefore, can not come to an accurate read on them.
It's much better play for me to put my trust into Shoshin, who has never mislynched anyone before and who will lead us to certain victory.

ok i get what you're saying and where the frustration comes from (hi she wanted to mislynch in mylo there, remember?) but she's town so i'm just accepting it and moving on

i want to try to sort you tho so it would be helpful if you share your thoughts

I already shared a lot of my thoughts.
They were dumb and bad thoughts, but if you want to pick my brain, just ask me direct questions.

[Varsoon]

Yeah well it doesn't matter how good my earlier posts were if I'm wrong, does it?
And I'm clearly wrong about Shoshin, who is 99.9% town.

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon: Is your calling Shoshin town sincere, or are you still upset about the policy lynch thing (or possibly something else)? If it is sincere, please explain your read on her.

Shoshin's 99.9% town, didn't you read Irrel's post?

[Varsoon]

But that's clearly because I am threatened scum who must undermine your town efforts to consolidate power.
Definitely.
It's not because I suspect that there's scum in the block.

do you still think shoshin is scum? ifnot, who's scum in irrel's proposed townbloc?

I do suspect that at least one of Irrel, Shoshin, AlmostNancy, and TheWorst is scum, yes.

why do you think there's scum in this group?

@varsoon please

(i'm aware that you think shoshin is 99.9% town and that you will be following her to the ends of the earth, etc; i'm more intersted in who you think is scum and why you think there's scum in the group)

When I wrote that I figured it'd be between Irrel, Shoshin, and AlmostNancy.
Now though, I believe in all of them!
Viva la townblock!

[Varsoon]

I take back all my claims about Varsoon's meta after looking a bit deeper than two games.

How deep does that rabbithole go?

[Varsoon]

@Performer: I mean when you hop on to the Shoshin wagon, though both you and Xtoxm don't look great there. /shrugs.
I felt both of you were repeating a lot of what I was laying down and not doing that much original thinking.

@Varsoon: Is your calling Shoshin town sincere, or are you still upset about the policy lynch thing (or possibly something else)? If it is sincere, please explain your read on her.

Shoshin's 99.9% town, didn't you read Irrel's post?

I don't have ill will towards you, and I came into this game excited to play with the Varsoon who is eagerly trying to improve his ability to get along with other players & play well by joining more newbie games. Please stop giving your best effort to get me to be angry with you.

Yeah, that's cool.
Then people used out-of-game reasons to browbeat me into having to accept that sometimes I am a horribly wrong and terribly mean person.
Do you think I should just not trust you at face value? You said Shoshin is 99% town. Is that not true? Why do you want me to fight you on that point? You literally said to lynch you over Shoshin if it came down to it.
At this point it's clear that people would prefer if I just shut up and be complicit with our town commander-in-chief and let us have this great townblock that definitely shouldn't be undermined ever and for sure consists of only town. If I continue to just have pointless fights with Shoshin, it'll just degrade the game quality and Shoshin'll never play with me again and I'll just be angry and no one will be able to accurately read me for it--why would I stay on that path when the other path is easily sheeping someone who's a majority townread and has never mislynched?

P-EDIT:

Everything above the pedit is cringe
Everything below the pedit is locktown-irl

Varsoon I think you're really caught up on like holistic meta stuff and I'm like... not all that interested in it.... do you think the reads have been bad? maliciously intended? which ones? why?

I think the reads are awful, but my brain is dumb.

@Varsoon: Your response tells me that you really don't give a shit right now whether we figure out who is scum or not. You really are making it very difficult to take you seriously and not just dismiss you as functionally anti-town. Mafia is a co-operative game. If you are town, how about you try some calm sincerity? Then the rest of us can see and evaluate your reads, and either vote like you, or voice our disagreements. If you just want to go with what Shoshin says because you expect her to be wrong and want to gloat about it after the fact, then you're just screwing the rest of us over for your personal vendetta. If you're just upset now and you can make it pass, please hurry up and do. Either way, I await honest responses to my questions, once you are ready.

How am I functionally anti-town if I'm helping the townblock lynch scum?
How am I functionally anti-town by making a conscious decision not to fight the global townread?
How am I functionally anti-town for stepping back from a stance of undermining the townblock that will for sure crush scum?
I expect Shoshin to be right because Shoshin has literally never mislynched scum and Irrelephant has a 99.9% townread on Shoshin.
Shoshin's way more in her element than me right now.
Why should I compromise the game and ruin our chances of winning because of some personal thing?

[Varsoon]

Nauci's posts actually ping me really hard as scum and I don't have much reason besides 'gut'.
I'm sure a better player can make a better case there if Nauci is actually scum, though.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, what's your read on Xtom?

He's a player that I played with a long time ago and had a blast with, but his play here has been very barebones and minimal.
I'm not a huge fan of what's there but I don't think him sheeping my reasons for voting you is particularly duplicitous--he probably was just buying into a lot of what I was laying down.
I wish he'd come back in and play more.

Varsoon, why do you treat the game as if fighting the town read on shoshin or sarcastic shitposting about townreading shoshin are your only options?

Both are unproductive, and there are countless other ways to engage. Ignoring shoshin and her reads, what do you think of other players?

What are your thoughts on AlmostNancy? Specifically, on the Almost50 half, actually.

It's not sarcastic shitposting, it's facts. Get with it.
I'm forgoing a lot of my own agency for what I believe is a plan of action much more likely to result in a win for town.
Yeah, it sucks, and I'm a bit bitter about it and I'm working through that, bear with me, but it really is a pill I need to swallow so that we can come out ahead.

Other players? Just read my posts. I'm probably wrong anyway, so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in my judgments.
I think it's kinda fucked that someone dropped a whole great post about why Irrel could just be obvious conning us and people were all "Oh no this is just irrel lol don't get paranoid"
But that's my paranoia speaking. I was literally wrong on my paranoia on irrel in the newbie game we shared, so I'm probably wrong here.
Best to just trust Shoshin.

I have no idea why AlmostNancy has such a townread. Neither head has done anything that's impressed me or challenged the gamestate, imo.
They're playing really safe despite all the content they've generated, which is actually fairly par for the course for both heads, especially Nancy.
I couldn't tell you about A50 specifically, though, as I haven't really had the time or passion to differentiate the two.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Xtoxm

Following Shoshin the Immaculate, the White Tiger King.
Also
Xtoxm, please get in game.

[Varsoon]

That's what I'm saying.
It's par for the course.
I just have a hard playstyle difference from you
Guess I can't read you accuratey
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Varsoon]

Eugh
I hated showing my work.

But yeah I agree, Shoshin's methods are A+, way better than mine, which is why I'm following Shoshin here.

Real talk, though, don't fucking tell me to check Shoshin's meta when it only has a single scumgame in the whole damn thing.
I can't wait for the game when scum-Shoshin snows you all for eating out of her hands like a bunch of orphans who can't earn a damn thing yourselves.

[Varsoon]

I'm really, really grateful that I don't have to be in a game with Porkens.
Now that's a policy lynch I could get behind.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I'm mindmelding, too.
Groovy.

[Varsoon]

I'm really, really grateful that I don't have to be in a game with Porkens.
Now that's a policy lynch I could get behind.

Hands down, easiest player on the whole damn site to read correctly.

Dude contributes nothing as either alignment and somehow slides into LYLO because people won't lynch no-effort garbage anymore.
Oh wait.
I dunno, I always have difficulty reading him correctly.
Guess it's cus our playstyles are so different.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Varsoon]

@Nauci: Yeah, dude, Shoshin's town, you don't have to convince me of that.
You can talk long and hard about the existence of your own spine this game, but until you prove it, I'm going to doubt you.

[Varsoon]

Where did Mit even claim?
I remember them mentioning informed being in the setup, but don't recall an actual claim.

[Varsoon]

I've given plenty of my own reads, but I guess it just got buried in my bitter style.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Varsoon]

Oh this started, who’s scum?

Not_Mafia is town.

Yeah this is the kind of play that's so drastically different than mine that I scumread it by default.

@Performer: I mean that people townread AlmostNancy for no good reason.

[Varsoon]

Yeah this is the kind of play that's so drastically different than mine that I scumread it by default.

Stretch your brain a bit. I could tell you why this is town for NM, but it'd be cool if you figured it out yourself. It has to do with his established meta and the likelihood that scum NM makes this post with the inherent advantage of playing under his meta.

If I stretch my brain much more than I already have, it's gonna prolapse, and no one wants a prolapsed brainus.

[Varsoon]

I'm just gonna have to trust you on this one.

[Varsoon]

Fighters?

[Varsoon]

You want a piece of meat, boy?

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:

Gonna wait to see what Townhead says, but I don't wanna lynch out Xtoxm so fast like that.
I'd vote performer but I don't know what the VC is like right now.

[Varsoon]

This isn't LYLO, shoshin.
It doesn't work that way.

[Varsoon]

I'm aware.
I'm saying that someone avoiding hammering another player right now does nothing to actually indicate that player's alignment.
Scum!NM doesn't hammer Town!Xtoxm here, regardless.
I think Saudade should be higher and Nauci lower, but I'm not great at this.

[Varsoon]

Otherwise your reads sound good.

[Varsoon]

I dont feel like town-a50 can have a legit scum read on me here so thats a little sus

But what does my opinion matter

I care.
Please elaborate.

[Varsoon]

So if I ever doubt you as lock-town, it makes me scum?
I don't understand, Nancy.

[Varsoon]

Cmon Nauci at least put me in the readslists.

[Varsoon]

For the record, these last few pages of xtoxm posts have been good stuff.

[Varsoon]

I like it.

[Varsoon]

I'd much prefer a lynch on Xtom.

I really was hoping to play more of the game with him, though.
I know it's a really selfish and personal thing to ask, but can we let him be until at least D2?
If, by then, his play doesn't convince you that he's town, then I'll follow you there on a lynch, but I think it'd be kinda a bummer for the guy's return to site just to be lynched D1.
I'm also not really sold on him being scum.
And even if he's scum, he's gotta have buddies--why don't we find them?
His lynch also seems way too easy.

[Varsoon]

Who are his buddies?

I don't think he's scum
But if you do
That's for you to figure out.
I think we're much more likely to hit scum if we focus on people who'd have a lot to gain from an Xtoxm lynch.
Folks that haven't had much interactions so far and are being generally mid-range townread.

[Varsoon]

Or maybe she's not a townbeard and actually just scum. Tunnelling me since my first post and the read doesn't evolve in response to literally anything. You're going to have to stop putting blind faith on this at some point.

But Xtoxm, she's NEVER mislynched ANYONE.
EVER.

Don't worry about the Shoshin slot, though.
What are your thoughts outside of Shoshin?
Who do you think is scum if Shoshin is town?

[Varsoon]

Who are his buddies?

I don't think he's scum
But if you do
That's for you to figure out.
I think we're much more likely to hit scum if we focus on people who'd have a lot to gain from an Xtoxm lynch.
Folks that haven't had much interactions so far and are being generally mid-range townread.

What's your lynchpool right now?

Mine, for day 1, is within: performer, mewtaph, creature, not_mafia, xtoxm

I think that Keyser, AN, and skitter30's alignments will become much clearer over time (this also applies to xtoxm but less so because I don't have a grasp on reading him)

I couldn't even tell you everyone in this game but it's a lotta people.

[Varsoon]

yo, Xtoxm, this sort of "I never did that" denial thing Shoshin does is 100% a playstyle thing and not really indicative of alignment.
Even though they literally did post "Hey Irrel do you want to policy lynch Varsoon" and even though people outright interacted with and questioned it as a serious response, it did not happen, it was just an Irrel reaction test in Shoshin's eyes.

[Varsoon]

yo, Xtoxm, this sort of "I never did that" denial thing Shoshin does is 100% a playstyle thing and not really indicative of alignment.
Even though they literally did post "Hey Irrel do you want to policy lynch Varsoon" and even though people outright interacted with and questioned it as a serious response, it did not happen, it was just an Irrel reaction test in Shoshin's eyes.

Intent matters.

That's what I'm saying.
Because your intent is hard different from how it looked, you're not going to recognize how it looked.
You tend to get really locked into your intent and deny possibilities outside of that intent.
This is part of how we lost TAZ Mafia--your intent was fairly fine (scum getting a second vig or something akin to it aside), but you didn't consider the possibility outside of that.
This is entirely in your wheelhouse as town, but it doesn't make you town, it's just a part of how you seem to approach the game.

I will follow you here, though, because I do think Keyser could use a wagon.
VOTE: Keyser

[Varsoon]

Varsoon: why not mewtaph? Why get on Keyser now, instead of when Irrelephant and I tried to pressure there, even though nothing has really changed about the slot and he continues to say he'll engage Soon™?

I am not even sure who mewtaph is replacing
Getting on Keyser because my vote follows Shoshin's
Why get up in arms that it's now instead of like 10 hours ago?
Just get it wit it

[Varsoon]

Town claiming pgo instantly loses all it's utility, scum will never target it. Scum claiming pgo gives itself a free pass from all night threats. If I was scum and got dealt a pgo safeclaim id be looking to claim it asap.

Town claims it if they're a doctor or cop or some sort of strong role that doesn't want to get night killed but can't guarantee its own protection.
Here's the thing though,
Does anyone know what Irrel's history of fake-claiming is?

[Varsoon]

Varsoon, you know from experience that I can read Irrel so trust me on that, please.

Alright, then, I trust you on this.

How am I meant to not scum read shoshin here. Going into this game all I see I about her are people worshipping her town game, and herself boasting about the perfection of her town game.

And then she death tunnels me.

So given the knowledge of my own alignment.

Do I respect her reputation, therefore indicating she's tunnelling me for a mislynch.

Or disregard her reputation and call her a townbeard.

Please explain how I not scum read shosin here.

I've had the same sort of reaction to Shoshin.
Like even in this game, too!
I think I wrote something like
"You're either scum or your judgment is flawed.
Which is it this time?"
I think that's a pretty natural reaction to have.
The way Shoshin plays does infuriate me
And I do disagree a lot with their approach
But it doesn't mean they're scum
And it's best for town cohesion to work with it instead of just walling up against it.
That's basically the conclusion I've come to, at least.
Also, like I said, Shoshin's alignment sorts itself out well before lylo, no problem.

[Varsoon]

Xtoxm, for some level of context here:
viewtopic.php?p=10541816#p10541816

I really, really don't like RC's approach of being turbo-aggressive "I am always right" on reads and, in a lot of ways, I saw that mentality/agenda in Shoshin's play, as town, in a previous game that we both lost to scum that had no business winning.

[Varsoon]

I'm seeing a LOT of my own frustrations with Shoshin playing out here with your slot
But you gotta look beyond Shoshin's mentality/approach and stretch your mind a bit further.
I'm not saying they're locktown here, but that getting frustrated and bogged down over how they're pushing you isn't helpful.

[Varsoon]

Oh yeah the mewtaph slot ain't great, no.

[Varsoon]

I'd argue that it's kind of awful townplay, Nauci, as it completely gets stonewalled by anyone who's familiar with the slot and their methodology.
I'd actually PROVE that it's awful townplay, but I'm not scum this game, so I've gotta work with it.

[Varsoon]

Like it's perfectly fine level 1 play
But it gets snowed by anyone who doesn't conform to certain fundamentals and it's weak in reading town players who don't play in the ways Shoshin expects.

[Varsoon]

Shoshin's managed to skirt by with wins because
1. other players in town have been smart enough to make judgment calls on their own and sheep when needed and
2. other players know when to avoid the awful wagons Shoshin proposes sometimes

This is why I was trying to hit the brakes on people just blindly backing Shoshin everywhere and copping out Shoshin townreads because
1. Shoshin who gets what Shoshin wants will lose games--see TAZ.
2. Scum Shoshin is a relative unknown and could easily replicate this townposting.

[Varsoon]

I'll reiterate what I said in postgame of TAZ:
Shoshin's biggest weaknesses are not considering possibilities outside of her own view of the game, both when it comes to setup design and player behavior--this, coupled with Shoshin's extreme confidence, can be very abrasive and harm town cohesion.
The HUGE difference I see between Shoshin and players like RC, though, is that Shoshin is still willing to actually negotiate with other players, even ones she disagrees with, to come to new conclusions.
So the ideal way to handle Shoshin as town is always to keep a level head and just talk it out with 'em.

[Varsoon]

i mean she can be obvtown, doesn't mean i think her read accuracy is particularly great or that she should be lolsheeped or anything

That's pretty much the conclusion that I've come to.
That said, Shoshin's drive to prod and engage with other players is something that I don't really have right now.
So I've been giving Shoshin the extra leverage of my vote on top of it for things I agree with.

[Varsoon]

1. Shoshin who gets what Shoshin wants will lose games--see TAZ.

I was voting scum on the last day phase and never mislynched. If I got what I wanted, town never mislynches Irrelephant, never mislynches Reck, and lynches NSG (who was scum).

I was specifically referring to going with the No Lynch over lynching conf-scum NSG.
But that's neither here nor there.

[Varsoon]

Haha, it was intentional. <3

[Varsoon]

Yeah, that and a few other things are my problems.

I don't think you were the sole person responsible for our TEAM losing, though. We all could've put in a better effort.
I'm hoping to put in a better effort here and make this a game I can be proud of.

[Varsoon]

Don't appreciate the effort to shift focus back to Xtoxm after it's sliding to Key, Nauci.
It makes plenty of sense that Xtoxm is townreading me while scumreading Shoshin and the progression to an unvote after both Irrel and I explained how Shoshin can come off as scummy (especially when pointed at yourself) makes sense on his slot. It wasn't too sudden or disingenuous, you can see the wheels turning, imo.

Once again, I ask that you respect my incredibly selfish request to leave Xtoxm off the table for lynching on D1.

[Varsoon]

Actually, the entire re-focus to Xtoxm over Key makes me very uncomfortable about Nauci.
Especially that 'back aboard' statement.
Something just doesn't sit right with me about it.

[Varsoon]

Nancy, Shoshin's helped me gain a ton of perspective in this game and my read on her has 180'd.
Does that make me scum, too?

[Varsoon]

Ayyy I'm not gonna take any ground until after you've flipped, my guy.
I'm putting my neck in the rope with you if you're scum here.

@Nancy: It doesn't look like it came from this game at all, though.
Anyone can just go in this game and tell, too.
You can click the post link and it'll bring you to where it originated.
I think the context he situated it in fits here.

I don't really think scum would try to pull a fast one about literally lying about the contents of a public game thread.

[Varsoon]

Actually, the entire re-focus to Xtoxm over Key makes me very uncomfortable about Nauci.

I'm confident Nauci's town, but I would like to see a wagon build on Key. I think competing wagons on any of my bottom three scumreads would benefit this game a lot.

I'd be pushing Nauci hard if it weren't for moments like this.
I still hold my suspicions, but you're right--we get a lot more out of cross-examining the people at the bottom of your reads right now.

I shifted my view of Keyser like 20 pages ago and wanted to scrutinize mewtaph until Keyser returned

But the xtoxm interactions have, to me, revealed a very shaky ground for all of the reads he presented that makes his reads list seem like it was completely bullshitted. He was given space to interact like I promised, and the result is this read. I'm not even close to alone in calling out the inconsistency here, so why focus on me for this switch?

In addition, your change of heart was accompanied by a lot of posts that showed your thinking and followed the advice of many of your town reads as well as direct interactions and your own experience, while xtoxm called out the cue of someone he thought was scum with shoshin...

The way you specifically moved your vote and pushed momentum came as scummy to me. Other people might have called it out, but you seem to have seen that as an opportunity to strike when the iron was hot and get people to get 'back aboard'.

My change of heart was initially a hands-throwing-up so-done-with-this situation that was followed by about 24 hours of me showing my ass with tongue-in-cheek sarcasm.

[Varsoon]

It's just like
I see a lot of myself in Xtoxm in this game
And it bothers me when so many people can justify scumreading him but not me.

[Varsoon]

I look forward to everyone blaming their mislynch for being soooooo scummy and having having terrible reads after I flip.

Then town it up and catch some actual scum independent of how people are pushing stuff on you, my duder.

It's just like
I see a lot of myself in Xtoxm in this game
And it bothers me when so many people can justify scumreading him but not me.

He's been pocketing you all game, so maybe try to separate yourself from that for a moment.

What specifically do you see of yourself in him that makes him towny this game? Like, he could be similar to you as a person and still be scum, right? What's the specific towny response that you're seeing?

You've done a lot of things that he hasn't done. If all you'd done was play like him, I'd be scumreading you. You've dropped some massive town tells in this game. He hasn't.

From my perspective, Xtom is scummy because he's acting on the basis of things he doesn't actually believe and he's doing it with a pro-scum intent. He doesn't actually believe that I have perfect read accuracy, for example, yet he holds me to that standard and then scumreads me for being "wrong" about him. To me, that looks like scum acting on the basis of things he doesn't actually believe in order to push a mislynch. Why would town do this?

Don't really consider myself pocketed, just looking out for someone that I know is a player I enjoy playing with. His position is very similar to mine and it makes it easier for me to relate to the position he's coming from and understand his reaction to you and his reads.

Who's to say I'm not scum and haven't just pocketed you by dropping those 'towntells' and AtE'ing like a caught chump? That's the thing--I don't really see duplicitous intent in Xtoxm's posts.

I never actually believed you had a 100% reads accuracy which exactly why I was voting you and posting things like "You're either scum or your judgment is flawed" in this very game.
I think that he's a really easy lynch regardless of align, though, and I don't think him flipping one way or the other really produces worthwhile associatives at this point, which is why I think it's far more strategic and worthwhile to give him room to breathe and engage with the game while we pursue one of the half-dozen other questionable slots. If the content he continues to produce doesn't add up, then he's created more interactions that are telling and worthwhile when we do lynch him. It's fairly simple.

[Varsoon]

I'm trying to point out the hypocrisy in people that townread me but scumread Xtoxm.

[Varsoon]

If he's scum, he's on a clock regardless.

[Varsoon]

1313 is fine, potentially towny
I’m sad Keyser isn’t really here though
It’s probably NAI I guess. I hope he catches up and/or real-times soon

What are the odds of Varsoon/xtoxm team? Low? Or are they jsut forgoing using daychat?

It always bugs me when I don't recall Daychat being in game from the OP and someone mentions it like this.

[Varsoon]

I don't like that post, AlmostNancy.
'cus while I can think for myself
It's all dumb thoughts.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Kokichi
Whaddup punk

[Varsoon]

Well, there's a guilty on you.
That's why your predecessor replaced out.

What do you have to say?

[Varsoon]

So you'd always go to your scum PT before posting in the game PT?

Interesting...

[Varsoon]

...so why'd it take you over an hour and a half from when the mod said you replaced in for you to post here?
It's not like you were doing a catchup.

[Varsoon]

So you made the optimal play here, huh?

[Varsoon]

How many pages is the Scum PT at?

[Varsoon]

Average reading speed is 200 wpm.
You haven't posted at all on-site between the replace-in filling and you posting here, so I'm to assume you took the 1 hour and 46 minutes to read the scum PT and formulate a response.

That puts us at 20800 words
The average post in a scum PT is about 27 words,
so 770 posts
25 posts per page
30 pages?

IF that's the case and you flip scum then I know your scum buddies are very vocal scum threaders, so...

Real talk though thoughts on the game?
Have you read any at all?

[Varsoon]

Are you the King of Wifom, my guy?
Really
Seriously
That's not something
guy
come one
that's not something to brag on
my dude

@Nancy: Sicknasty informed roles and day powers.

[Varsoon]

It's mostly a joke but real talk I am curious what the delay between being announced as a replace-in is for Kokichi when their first post wasn't catchup and they admit to a philosophy that ideal play is to catchup in Scum PT first.

[Varsoon]

Aw.
I'm mad jealous.

[Varsoon]

@Skitter: Hahaha, I learned my lesson about dropping hints and crumbs. Just gonna be forthright with info from now on in games and see how that goes.
Real talk though he would have had to confirm via PM before mod confirmed him in-thread, so I'm curious what the delays were but yeah the obvious explain is that he was just not around until now.

[Varsoon]

Please never link me to an RC game again.
That dude's play is so insufferable that it's hard enough to deal with when I'm in a game I signed up for.
If there's a point you'd wanna get across by linking one of those games, just save me the headache and tell me what I'm supposed to get from it and I'll take you at face value.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Mewtaph

I agree with what The Worst is laying down and I wanna support it.
Mewtaph's posts are like a black hole to me.

Also still wanna know why I'm Harpoon but I guess it's either because
1. phoneposting
2. jokeposting
3. it's a fat joke ;_;

[Varsoon]

naw its all g I was just curious
<3

[Varsoon]

I'll figure it out whatever I'm called.
Carson was the one that threw me for the biggest loop.

[Varsoon]

I'll be real
It's been hard for me to follow along with this game.
People are posting a lot and it's difficult to keep up.
I'm also a bit overgamed as it is but like
I want to contribute.

What's the case on Performer here?
I could put him at L-1 but I REALLY don't like the comp of that wagon. :/

[Varsoon]

Yeah I am much more comfortable with a Kokichi lynch today.

Creature made the joke that they play better under pressure and self-voted.

[Varsoon]

Can't read your new posts as town; you are the WIFOM king.

[Varsoon]

I really wish I had something to add here.
Every time I catch up on the game I'm just kinda like
"Alright those 3 pages sure didn't stick out much to me."

[Varsoon]

I'm fine with lynching Kokitchy here.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon. Every game you've scumread me and I've been town. Why doesn't that give you pause? Like i tunneled you that one game and its given me pause since you were town.

Gonna be right eventually.
This is the one.
Rollin those dice.
Gambling Dropout Varsoon.

[Varsoon]

Kokichi Oma Saudade

Sounds like something Kenshiro would say before someone explodes
Like

Kokichi Oma Saudade

NANI?!

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Not Mafia
You aren't town
You're Not Mafia.

[Varsoon]

Man did I botch that one too?
Should I have gone with
"Just because you're Not Mafia doesn't mean you're town."?

[Varsoon]

hahahaha
gamma scum huh?
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Who's his scumbuddy?
Metalsonic?
GiF?

[Varsoon]

What makes wurst obvscum

[Varsoon]

Ansewer it again for me.

[Varsoon]

Artifully tickulate it.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Kokichi
Also still fine with this.

[Varsoon]

yes i am a day 2 ic.

VOTE: Not Mafia

If you aren't confirmed as town on D2
Then I will park my vote on you for the rest of the game.
You should understand full well why.

[Varsoon]

So I talked to mod. He said end of day 2. Not just day 2, wanted to make this clear to me. Just wanted to let you guys know now. Sorry. If you wanna just lynch me then w.e

If these goalposts move again
You're dead the second they do.
Get your hecking story straight.

[Varsoon]

What's the difference between lynching me day 2 and 3. If you truly think I'm scum you get more associations from me. There is a chance we get a guilty tomorrow anyway.

"Guys I'm a D3 survivor don't lynch me."
"Guys Guys I'm an N2 double-killer strongman, pls no lynch"

I dunno I'm just talking out my ass, but the difference could be huge.
People who try to scrape by ONE MORE DAY always bug me.

[Varsoon]

You're already on my hit list because you went back to avatar-posting and roleplaying for a second there.

[Varsoon]

But delayed IC is a role that can exist. How could anyone claim it without looking like they want to "scrape one more day"

I've seen it in games and put it in games.
So long as we hold Kokichi to his word RIGHT NOW
and if he doesn't IC at THE END OF D2
Then we lynch him
We'll be fine most of the time, short of a poorly designed setup.
And if it's a poorly designed setup, then winning was never in our cards to begin with.

[Varsoon]

Scum buying themselves 1 or 2 days doesn't save them whatsoever and only opens them up for more associatives when they do get pinned.
Back off of it, Irrel.

[Varsoon]

The difference in the Newbie was that we had much much more limited time/lynches/days.

[Varsoon]

Spiderverse was really good, probably one of my favorite animated movies ever made.

Also, some shit happened that's really soured me on playing mafia so I might just replace out here since I'm having trouble keeping up. :/

@MOD: V/LA until after New Years.
I'll be around but
eh.

[Varsoon]

Shoshin often gets tunnel vision, but usually thinks through their reads quite a lot.

Actually.
@Shoshin: I thought you didn't mislynch people?
What's the deal?

[Varsoon]

It's because it's an Even-night role and not an IC, AlmostNancy.
Kokichi is very likely lying.
I'm betting on the chance that he's still telling the truth because it'd be suicide otherwise.

[Varsoon]

Kokichi is very likely lying.

this is very funny out of context

A wink and a nod
But understanding the context that it's out of, you should also know why I trust you.

[Varsoon]

@Kokichi: It's probably Even-Night Zerg gets to kill, Odd-Night Protoss or the bad Terrans, going by flavor so far?

[Varsoon]

Which is all the more reason I should be super skeptical of you but ayyy
A man's got to stick to his values.
If you're not clear start of D3, you're roped, buddy.

[Varsoon]

@Kokichi: It's probably Even-Night Zerg gets to kill, Odd-Night Protoss or the bad Terrans, going by flavor so far?

Yeah. That makes some sense. I doubt Zerg would have a kill flavor of shot, so it should be interesting to see.

Wtf are those? I don’t recall seeing any of those on MS Wiki?

In Starcraft, there are 3 distinct factions:
1. The Terran - humans. These are further divided and going through a civil war. In the video game, there are good Terrans and bad Terrans. The hero of the Terran that you play as is Jim Raynor. The primary villain is Mengsk.
2. The Zerg - Aliens created with 'perfect' bodies that serve a hive mind. In the video game, they can corrupt Terrans into becoming like them. One corrupted Terran, Kerrigan, has powerful psychic abilities and, through subterfuge and civil war, practically assumes control of the Zerg.
3. The Protoss - Aliens created with 'perfect' minds. In the video game, they are fractured into various factions with some 'Dark' Protoss severing the tendrils on their heads that allow them to be linked into a religiously interpreted psionic link with other Protoss. Tassadar is the hero of the Protoss, siding with the Terrans (and the Dark Protoss) and ultimately sacrificing himself to kill the Zerg Overmind.

In the video game, the three factions are at war with each other, with some intermingling between the sides.
Some Protoss aide Terrans and vice versa, whereas many kill each other on sight.
Zerg are pretty much the enemies of everyone but they can corrupt Terran into becoming Zerg.

My speculation is that with even and odd night roles, there is likely a scum faction of Zerg and a scum faction of Protoss/Humans. That way, kill flavor of 'shooting' would fit for odd nights but kill flavor of 'killing' would fit for even nights with these factions alternating their kills. I designed a setup very much built around alternating kills that a friend of mine ran off-site, which was a test at if multiball could be less of a shit show if built around that.

[Varsoon]

Nah there could be scum terrans, either in their own faction or sided with the Zerg or Protoss even.
All our flips so far have been town-aligned Terrans.

What I'm saying is that if this is multiball, it makes sense (with kill flavors and our own roles that only act on even/odd nights) that the factions are split like that with an alternating kill.

[Varsoon]

I think that's probably what your role is important for--you likely know if someone's flavor is terran, zerg, or protoss; which'll make sorting them out a little easier?
I dunno.

[Varsoon]

Also with Kokichi claiming what essentially looks like Even-Night IC, we'll see if that's the case or if he's not just lying.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, our flips so far have been
Terran, town aligned, Medic flavor.
Terran, town aligned, Duke flavor.
Terran, town aligned, Rory Swann flavor.

[Varsoon]

Part of me leans towards us all flavor claiming because I highly doubt that the mod made the clearly-flavor-heroes as scum, but also
As a mod, I think flavor gaming is lame as fuck and contrary to the point of a setup.
It's really weird that Nancy has a role only about flavor.

[Varsoon]

I'm against it morally and also I think it may be against wincon if Nancy is town here.

[Varsoon]

To specifically say that it might be tempting as a 'gamesolve' but that we should not do it.

[Varsoon]

With how little Shoshin has been around D2, I've outright forgotten she was in this game altogether.
Thanks for the reminder, Performer!

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I've kind of lost track entirely.
Sorry. :/

[Varsoon]

@Nauci: Two players dead, Even/Odd Night, Flavor spec, AlmostNancy claiming a flavor-based role which means flavor is more important than I thought going in.
Yeah, I think this is actually why Shoshin got thrown off. I don't know Shoshin's experience with multiball, but I'm figuring they played as though scum weren't laying down genuine hunting.
As for current reads, they are very in the ether.
I don't like Performer and Kokichi still, but Kokichi clears up by D3 anyway.
Otherwise, now that I've had the epiphany of multiball, I kinda have to throw out all of my reads so far and re-read this slog of a game to figure out things with that in mind.
I think Xtoxm's just kinda slugging about par for the course and the flip in his read on me feels unorganic but what can I say? I still don't think the worst of the guy. If I die, do give him a looking-at, though, given the timing of his reversal in reading me.

[Varsoon]

I thought you slipped me as leantown early on and came around recently to "eh the guy might be scum"
I dunno.

[Varsoon]

Oh
I figured out the problem
I am overgamed.
Nah yeah Xtoxm you're good here, I'm a doofus.

[Varsoon]

You haven't left an impact on me so far D2 is what I mean by 'not around'. I guess it's a cynical 'not around'--like you're not around in my head/perspective?
You're not townleading like you were D1, imo.
I don't think it makes you scum, I just think your confidence is shaken.

Why do you think that a game that's literally got two deaths on N1, with a town even-Vig and PGO, with SPECIFIC FLAVOR FOR THEIR KILLS, all of which who have been TOWN and TERRAN, based on a franchise known for its multifactional intrigue and warfare, isn't multiball?
How is this not connecting for you, Shoshin?

P-EDIT:
I'm not expecting you to suck. I thought you'd be doing good because you actually are a good player.
I think your reads are either heavily wrong because you refused to consider multiball in D1 reads and you haven't re-evaluated OR you're scum.
I'm trying to hash that out.
I think Town Shoshin is far less likely to be stubborn about this being multiball, though, and would be quick to re-assess.
That's why I'm trying to beat you over the head with it because
Honestly
You're my best chances as winning this if you're town.
You're a lot better at coming to conclusions about alignments than I am, especially in larger games.

[Varsoon]

Here's the thing
I know, for a fact, that Zerg is going to exist as a faction. This is a ducking STARCRAFT game.
And Zerg, in no way, have 'shoot' flavor in this game.
And we know kill flavor is important
because of the Terran flips

Actually,

@MOD: The dead PGO and Vigilante say they have 'bullet' flavor. What would their kills have looked like if they happened? What would be written?

[Varsoon]

Role PMs have multiball/generic wording and the opening post says there is ~a~ mafia faction with daytalk so I feel like we're dealing with maybe mafia + SK

but irrelephant, as w Creature, was shot, so if the Zerg is a faction either they don't have a nightkill or they didn't kill last night...?

I'm saying it's probably something like
Evil Terrans kill on Odd Nights with Bullets.
Zerg kill on Even Nights with Claws.
SK could be Protoss?

I'm not saying we're missing a kill, but that I think the different factions have a rotating kill with different flavor.
I also think that if there is an SK, they probably are bulletproof and shot our PGO.

[Varsoon]

So what do you think of performer's claim then

...what was Performer's claim again?

[Varsoon]

Protoss shoot lasers and use beam swords and lightning. They're... not really bullet-types.
Zerg? They can infect humans and control them, so it's possible that some Zerg have bullet-type flavor.
There are also just straight up Terran that are bad guys and they'd definitely have bullet-type flavor.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: performer

I don't understand how crumbing scv flavor could possibly allude to being a tpr

But I could see it being a scum train of thought

Also I don't think anyone here has played it enough to immediately recognise the butter my biscuit allusion, and I say that as someone who has every achievement and used to commentate sc2 esports

I don't get the reference.
But I haven't played any of Starcraft 2.
Actually
Should I play it for the plot/story missions??


VOTE: Performer

I'm cool with this.

[Varsoon]

I heard the writing takes a big poopoo on a lot of the neat stuff from the first game/Brood War.
I'd mostly be playing it to enjoy an RTS again.
It's been so long. Like, shit, what, since playing Dawn of War: Soulstorm?
Jesus.

[Varsoon]

Yeah man I'm the king of awful ideas.
I'd fake-claim delayed-IC on D1 as town, gun to my head.

[Varsoon]

Protoss shoot lasers and use beam swords and lightning. They're... not really bullet-types.
Zerg? They can infect humans and control them, so it's possible that some Zerg have bullet-type flavor.
There are also just straight up Terran that are bad guys and they'd definitely have bullet-type flavor.

I still don’t understand. How are Terrans bad guys? *confuzzlement growning*

In the first Starcraft game, the Terran Confederacy is in a civil war.
https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Arcturus_Mengsk
https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Terran_Confederacy
https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Sons_of_Korhal
https://starcraft.fandom.com/wiki/Alpha_Squadron

In the game, Terran characters like Duke and Jim Raynor are good guys, whereas Terran characters like Arcturus Mengsk are bad guys. Mengsk seems like a good guy at first, but he turns out to be using Psi Emitters to make the Zerg attack or show up in certain places and he has this policy of nuking entire planets. Mengsk betrays Jim Raynor and is successful in overthrowing the Confederacy and establishing the Terran Dominion in its place. At least, I am fairly sure that's the plot.

Anyway, SCV doesn't make any sense for a bulletproof claim, as they're your basic grunt worker units and one of the easiest units to kill. It makes sense as a fake-claim in a game where all the named roles are already taken, but it'd be vanilla town or some sort of enabler role in my mind.

[Varsoon]

I should probably be fair and let ya'll know I had no idea how many votes Performer had on them when I laid it.
I would've been fine if it were the hammer, though.

[Varsoon]

That's a cool fake-claim for a bulletproof SK, Performer.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Keyser Soze

Whatever, Performer, I've got your number.

[Varsoon]

"Oh man yeah it'd be a crazy wifom role haha
Also scumreading Varsoon"

All these 180s on me
Ya'll gonna feel like some chumps when I spin you back 'round.

[Varsoon]

No, that guy got lynched on D1.

[Varsoon]

Also, I wouldn't tilt this hard as third party, trust.
I'd want to keep a low profile and avoid flavor spec that could make me seem informed.

[Varsoon]

Come to think of it, I don't know that I've ever rolled third party in a game. Hm.

[Varsoon]

mate.
viewtopic.php?p=7293596#p7293596

Oh snap, you are correct.
Died on D3? Well that's foreboding.
How do you remember stuff like that?

@Shoshin: About the multiple factions/multiball/flavor stuff. If I was informed on that front and I wasn't town, I'd want to avoid tipping my hand.

[Varsoon]

D:
I didn't make it public?
I truly am a monster.
It wasn't one of these?
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=62417
viewtopic.php?f=90&t=62415

[Varsoon]

<3

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Mewtaph
I'm cool with this as what strikes me as a deliberate move away from Performer

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Mewtaph
I'm cool with this as what strikes me as a deliberate move away from Performer

Sorry I'm confused about your wording here: you like the fact that this is a move away from performer as in you're town reading him? Or something else? I feel like I'm reading this incorrectly

Like it feels like a deliberate shift from performer, who I still want to lynch.
Actually yeah fuggit
VOTE: Performer

Also, also, it's super obvious this is going to a deadline lynch. Again. So excuse me if I ignore the thread while the :townreads: continue to ponder to themselves whether other :townreads: are town and then hop around for dumb reasons on everyone else outside of it until the deadline ends.

If your only contributions are going to be "Pfft whatever it's a deadline lynch" maybe reconsider your approach. The idea is that when pressure is put on you, you play, not resign.

ok guys i just had a really tinfoily idea that might be total bs but it makes sense in my head rn

varsoon said that the zerg mind control humans to do their bidding. what if the zerg is scum/sk and that is their ability, to control a terran player and have them perform the kill.
so a zerg mind controlled creature to kill irre and then creature got pgo'd

Flavor-wise, that'd be really cool.
Mechanically, though, I kiiiinda hate it.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Keyser

Aight then.

[Varsoon]

Really important shit if I die tonight, but I'm sure you numbskulls will completely not listen to me:

Performer is very likely scum with that claim.
If Kokichi isn't confirmed as town, he is confirmed as scum.
Look really really close at what I've posted today. It'll serve as your roadmap to scum.
Don't let this be another TAZ.

[Varsoon]

@Shoshin: Don't worry, my death would illuminate everything in that post.
I was thinking of crumbing but I decided to just be forward.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Mewtaph
Ayo.

[Varsoon]

For the record, I don't think performer's claim clears him at all.

[Varsoon]

Yeah actually
VOTE: Keyser
I don't buy the claim as town.
Gunsmith works perfectly fine as an anti-town role since we're confirmed to have a Vigilante and a PGO.
Lynch this.

[Varsoon]

For the record, I don't think performer's claim clears him at all.

What about Keyser?

Oddly enough I think scum gunsmith and town gunsmith are both possible

I meant Keyser here.
Performer too, tho.

[Varsoon]

@shoshin: Could be that he just detects if they are capable of bullet kills, which is likely not everyone commits.

[Varsoon]

Man straight up ugh
VOTE: Mew

[Varsoon]

So wait
what was your result from N1 again?