Excalibur [Endgame]

[Varsoon]

How should we handle FoS if everything is gladiates?
Do we want to run an unofficial FoS system or something?

[Varsoon]

I'm also trying to wrap my head around if having a secret bulletproof town player is stronger than having a bulletproof IC.

[Varsoon]

You're right.
Swordproof.

[Varsoon]

They only get the vig if they're Arthur, which they will never know unless Merlin confirms.

[Varsoon]

LL coming out hot with the reads.
What makes Nancy and UT town?
Why is mechanical talk scummy in an open setup?
If I was scum and you asked me to bus-gladiate, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Throwing out a thought:
If scum claims Excalibur, they die immediately.
Town can vote on someone to claim Excalibur for the day. ONLY that person claims at night. If they're scum it remains unclaimed, lynch next day. If there's a claim treat them like an IC the next day.

Kill resolves before claim. Yes, we'd effectively gate the scum kill but we'd also render the setup as 13-4 mountainous.
But I think you're right in that we could effectively use the sword claiming as a one-shot cop, but, again, that renders the bulletproof aspect of it kind of useless.

@MOD: If Merlin dies and flips, does Arthur's identity get revealed with the flip?
Can Merlin claim Excalibur?

[Varsoon]

@Auro: They kill town and keep the sword out of play, though, again, I don't think scum really have anything to fear if a townie WOULD get the sword is the problem, because then so long as that townie is not Arthur, it's just a BP IC and scum knows they're BP so they won't waste time there.

@Elsa: It's literally anti-town for Merlin to claim Excalibur for two reasons:
1. It ASSURES that Arthur will never get the sword.
2. It deprives us of an IC slot that the sword provides since Merlin is already an IC slot by claim.

[Varsoon]

Honestly, we get more value from having a strong town leader claim the sword rather than using it as a jank cop on bad town that no one wants to keep around anyway.

[Varsoon]

I'm still wondering if it's just not a stronger play for everyone BUT Merlin to attempt to claim, so that we get a BP in the mix that scum doesn't know exists.
Then if said player is ever gladiated, they can just claim Excalibur-holder, Merlin can confirm and also confirm Arthur exists.
Obviously, this falls apart if Merlin is killed, which is what we need to avoid the hardest.
This setup actually has a ton of low-percentage-chance swing which is really awkward.
Like if scum kill Merlin N1, town is fucked sideways from a role perspective.
Whereas if Arthur gets the sword, town has two ICs, one of which is a Bulletproof Vig.

[Varsoon]

Ya'll are hard over-thinking this shit, which, imo, is what scum wants.
It's really fuckin' simple.

Everyone tries to claim sword N1.
Whoever gets it enjoys being BP and can claim if they need to confirm as IC if dueled.
If Merlin survives to D2, Merlin claims to become IC and, if he knows Arthur has the sword, he says so and Arthur keeps their mouth shut or
if he knows Arthur doesn't have the sword then he claims who Arthur is and boom
Town has 2 ICs on D2 and a secret BP IC or
Town has 1 IC on D2 and a secret BP Vig IC
If Non-confirmed-Arthur town gets the sword, they never attempt to vig with it because they are just going to shoot themselves in the foot 12 out of 14 times.

And that's it.
There's no more optimal play around it.
If you try to publicly gate who goes for the sword, you don't account for
1. Townies that disregard this shit
2. Scum having control of killing claimants/not
Basically playing around it as a public cop only works once and even then it's iffy.

Our goal should be to shut the fuck up and stop tilting who may or may not be Merlin and just scumhunt
There's no more point to discussing the Sword mechanics.

[Varsoon]

EBWOP: 11 out of 13 times. Keep forgetting this is a 13-4.

[Varsoon]

You're right it should be (everyone minus Merlin and scum).
No one should self-exempt because they may be Arthur and not know it.

Anyway.
Enough of that shit, please.

[Varsoon]

Shortens the lynch pool, nothing wrong with it.
But I'm of the mind that more ICs early is better than not having them.
Regardless, Merlin has to claim if survived to D2 due to Arthur info not flipping on Merlin's death; so long as both are in setup killing Merlin before claim wipes 2 ICs off the map.

@DVa: If we consensus catch two scum on D1 in this game then scum have already fucking lost.

[Varsoon]

216's a great plan and the only one that accounts for all of town not being on the goddamn ball.

[Varsoon]

@Dunn: Except it fuckin' confirms them as ICs what don't you understand about how IC works

@Auro: Setup Spec doesn't help us do very much here and just informs the scum kill, imo. I think Cakez is more likely town for wanting the game to move away from it. We've got like 10 pages of shit that should be obvious.

@DVa: Or more realistically understanding that it's fucking hard to reign in 13 other jackasses and not hinging an entire plan around it.
Stop shading me with that ish.
HURT: DVa

[Varsoon]

I want 3 mod-confirmed clears with a hidden Bulletproof rather than a single maybe-cop that fails if we don't hit double scum with it OR if a single town isn't on board with the plan.
In fact, fuck you, I'm going for the sword no matter what you say, so your plan can eat shit and you can die.

[Varsoon]

You're trying to force the worst use of the mechanic and it's scummy to do so because it keeps town from confirming the highest number of town and possibly having an unknown BP floating--there's no higher utility that we can get unless Arthur gets the sword and, with your plan, Arthur never gets the sword.
You know what happens if we have 2 consensus scumreads, realisticly? We force them to gladiate, one flips scum, and then we lynch out the other.
Wow that was hard

[Varsoon]

Stealth IC would be wonderful if one of our stealth ICs wasn't entirely contingent on the other Stealth IC being alive.
Every single day that Merlin doesn't claim after N1 is another night where scum potentially wipes 2 ICs out with one kill.

[Varsoon]

Makes sense but I'm townreading Cakez' frustration with the game already being 10 pages of setup spec. Cakez's first post was on page 7 with him being like "Guess this is going to be one of those games..."
If there's a better plan, I haven't thought of it. Wish RR was here. RR is way better at coming up with a good plan and browbeating everyone into line with wall posts that obv!town him while getting everyone on the same page.

[Varsoon]

Having 3 ICs on D2 gives us a lynch pool of 12 players with 4 scum in it assuming a ML on D1.
You being all "Oh nooo scum shoots one of them then"
So what then? If we ML D2 then D3 is still 2 ICs with a lynch pool of 10 with 4 scum in it.
"Oh nooo scum shot the other IC"
Okay great we STILL have 1 BULLETPROOF IC with a lynch pool of 8 with 4 scum in it which is a 50/50 LYLO which is way better than most LYLO odds.

People who think the ICs should stay unclaimed don't understand optimal use of the role in how it narrows lynch pools and certifies town voices.

@Nancy: Arthur never gets the sword in DVa's scenario.
In fact, unless Town is willing to literally suicide itself, Arthur doesn't get the sword most of the time in this game anyway.
It's not reasonable to try to play towards Arthur getting the sword and Arthur having the sword just gives us a Vigilante shot which, realistically, just hits town more often than scum anyway and throttles us towards loss.

@Auro: Fat chance. I'm always going after the sword because DVa's plan throws away Bulletproof for not-really-a-cop shot that doesn't work most of the time.

[Varsoon]

Talking mechs is the most NAI/scummy content you can ever bring yourself to talk about because you're talking about something that is rather simple instead of scumhunting like you should be doing overall the mech talk. If you look at this game in the most basic sense it's red flag with 2 ICs with everyone having a gladiator power. If we work together on using hurt tags to put up the 2 people everyone finds the most scummy that is gonna be more useful then fighting over what the 'best plan' for the sword is. What you're doing isn't helpful it's more anti town then not

It's baffling that you're coming to the same conclusion as me but you're scumreading me for coming to that conclusion.
I don't get it.

@Nancy: Sorry, got worked up, don't really want anyone to die or anything like that, but it is frustrating that people are way overthinking this and getting taken for a ride.
I don't mean to insult anyone personally; I don't trust the entire playerlist and I think DVa's plan keeps us too mechanics focused while giving up the one strength we have from this setup.

@Auro: Misleading us how? I've been forthright with everything and I wouldn't even call it 'leading' to say we should just play the game the way it was probably designed to be played.

[Varsoon]

It's not a stupid ass plan to narrow the lynch pool you fucking mong
We literally only win game if we lynch enough scum.
You're over here like "Lol our ICs shouldn't claim till LYLO"
Oh yeah great fucking idea
so if scum doesn't KILL MERLIN before then, fucking that plan entirely, we're looking at a LYLO where scum can just fucking FAKE CLAIM MERLIN ANYWAY BECAUSE IT'S AN IC BY CLAIM NOT BY ROLE USAGE

[Varsoon]

@Veridian: IC is a term that means 'Innocent Child'. It's a role that's confirmed as town by the moderator. Here, we don't actually have any ICs, but due to the moderator/setup info, we know that anyone claiming Merlin is either town or a liar and that Merlin knows who Arthur is, which confirms another town player, and that only town can claim the sword, so if the sword is claimed, we know the player who has it is confirmed as town and Merlin can confirm their claim as sword-haver.

[Varsoon]

Basically, if Merlin dies, we lose all of our ICs because
1. Scum can claim they have the sword when they don't.
2. Merlin has to claim who Arthur is for Arthur to be IC.

This all goes to shit in a MYLO/LYLO because scum have higher incentive to fake-claim and force a 50/50 instead of taking the worse odds.

[Varsoon]

My plan ensures that if Merlin survives a single night, we get the most utility out of all of our roles.
Everyone else's plans all hinge heavily on all players doing as they are told while also still being liable to losing to scum in LYLO situations.

[Varsoon]

Something_Smart over there in his scum PT like "Shit shit we gotta shut down Varsoon's plan because it's the fucking ideal one that gives town the best chances of winning. Let me propose some shit where our ICs lose all effectiveness entirely"

Oh wow surprise that line of posturing is garbage and does nothing to advance reads.
HURT: Something_Smart
Fucking moronic.
Delete your account and make a new one called Something_Scummy or Something_Stupid if you're gonna keep that shit up.

P-EDIT:
@Auro: Swordholder's the only IC that gets to stay hidden because that's how their BP keeps its effectiveness.
Merlin should always claim D2 because otherwise Merlin's death makes us lose info on who Arthur is.
It doesn't matter if it's the 'OBVIOUS' NK, it gates the NK and shrinks our lynch pool.

[Varsoon]

Agree on most of except for the vig thing. Really think it's wack that only a single player actually gets the vig and everyone else just suicides.

[Varsoon]

Wish LLD would come back and post more though.
Guess it feels longer than it's really been.

[Varsoon]

Alright, I'll tone it down.
Apologies.

[Varsoon]

@Gamma: I think you horribly misunderstand the rules. The sword doesn't cycle. Once a townie gets it, they're BP. They'll never be lynched either, because they can just claim sword-holder and so long as Merlin is alive, Merlin can confirm.

I'm always going for sword here, anyway.

[Varsoon]

Town intentionally killing itself so that town can eventually get a Vig that'll more often than not just kill more town is an awful idea.

[Varsoon]

@SomethingSmart: You think that people claiming in LYLO makes them confirmed.
I refuted that already.
We can have civil discussions but you framing it like I'm the problem here when it's clear you haven't read my posts is troubling.

[Varsoon]

We can have civil discussions but you framing it like I'm the problem here when it's clear you haven't read my posts is troubling.

You haven't fully explained why the mass claim would need to be d2 though. By your logic it seems as though mass claim should be d1. Why not day 3? Why is the math best on d2 specifically?

Mass Claim D1 means Arthur can NEVER get the sword.
Mass Claim D2 gives us the best chances of having the most conf-town at the same time.

[Varsoon]

So... you still haven't done what I asked. Do you agree with the following:

Confirming the highest number of town is not the best goal. If an obvious townie who was going to die at night turns out to be confirmed, it does nothing for us.

What we want is one of two things: confirmed townies that scum can't kill before it matters (either BP or confirmed

in LYLO

), or being able to choose who gets confirmed (because we can pick scummy players to get either guiltied or confirmed).

or not? And if not, why do you disagree?

Yes I have responded to that point in particular and it's maddening for you to repeat that I haven't over and over.

No, I disagree entirely.
I disagree because what I want (and what we should want) is a plan that works REGARDLESS of town cohesion, and that works AS SOON AS POSSIBLE and that GIVES US THE MOST GUARANTEED LEVERAGE OVER SCUM;
If we have 2 confirmed in Merlin-Arthur on D2 with a hidden third BP player that can later confirm, that's the best possible situation for us.
Our lynch pool shrinks from 15 to 12 on D2 which is HUGELY SIGNIFICANT.
People have been trying to shade the sword-claimant thing but so long as our Sword-Holder just claims THE DAY BEFORE LYLO, counterclaims don't beat it and we are guaranteed a BP IC going into LYLO.
This is literally the only way we are guaranteed any ICs going into LYLO as every other plan hinges too much on keeping Merlin/Arthur hidden until at least D3 or later without realizing one of two things:
1. LYLO is D5 in this setup.
2. Every Night that Merlin/Arthur go unclaimed is another huge risk we take that scum kills Merlin and we lose two ICs.

So, to REITERATE because I know some people might just be dense and not get it:
1. The problem with 'wait to confirm Merlin' plans is that they are very high risk for relatively low reward (to get an single extra IC into LYLO, Merlin would have to claim D4 at the earliest and go un-gladiated and un-killed until then)
2. The problem with 'use the sword to cop players' is that it only works if both town and scum agree to play around it AND if we fail to catch scum with it the first time, it literally won't work because the sword won't become unclaimed unless the townie that claimed it suicides.

[Varsoon]

Town intentionally killing itself so that town can eventually get a Vig that'll more often than not just kill more town is an awful idea.

Also, do you seriously believe that Arthur getting the sword is bad for town? It's mechanically equivalent to double day, at the very least if Arthur has poor reads he can be leashed and it still provides a massive boost to town EV...

Yes. I have seen far more games where town vig ruins the game for town and just gives scum extra kills than ones where town vig is a hero and shoots right.
I've moderated more than one game where town vig shoots town and significantly lowers town's chances of winning.

[Varsoon]

Arthur is never IC if Merlin dies before claiming.

I don't get what you mean by hypoclaims on Arthur.

Also, I trust you WAY less after this recent loss to you in that Newbie game. You wormed your way into a townread on me there by being methodical and questioning like this and so I'm going to be way more critical of you moving forward.

[Varsoon]

*claps hands* Just because vig shoots town doesn't mean it was a bad shot *claps hands*

Scumpost harder.
Also we never get a vig in this setup, Dunn.
I already came up with an ideal strat for it and even then it's like 1/7 chance,
It's awful.

The reality is that Arthur can't Vig until Merlin confirms who Arthur is
Trying to vig before then confers a 11/12 chance of suicide.

[Varsoon]

Arthur is never IC if Merlin dies before claiming.

I don't get what you mean by hypoclaims on Arthur.

Also, I trust you WAY less after this recent loss to you in that Newbie game. You wormed your way into a townread on me there by being methodical and questioning like this and so I'm going to be way more critical of you moving forward.

In D2, everyone says who Arthur is if they were Merlin.
If Merlin dies, the person he said is Arthur, is confirmed Arthur.

Yeah fair enough on the trust part.

That'd actually probably be fine. It makes it much more likely that Merlin gets shot D2 but if scum are out to shoot Merlin anyway they'll just do that if he hard claims.

[Varsoon]

I literally just agreed about hypoclaim on this page.
Also, no, lynch pool doesn't become 12 if people don't claim because people won't know who is who and won't know that UNLESS THEY CLAIM. Worst case scenario is that Arthur gladiates Merlin or the Sword Holder. You're working on the assumption that the lynch pool is 12 without the claims because, once gladiated/run up, the player can claim, but then we haven't looked in that pool, we've just run up or, worse, gladiated a player we can't lynch due to IC, forcing our lynch onto the other option, which is awful because then there's no criticism that can really be levied for mislynches and no associatives based solely on voting.

Screw it.
You want townies to kill themselves impaling on Excalibur every night, go with that plan.
When we lose the game thanks to that rubbish plan, I'll be in post laughing at you.

I said I was done talking about this garbage on Page 10. Why am I still getting dragged into this?

Also, Dunn, just because I think your ideas are awful doesn't mean I'm going to hurt tag you over them. Sometimes you can be wrong and town, which is something I have to reconcile, because it either applies to me or like eight other people in this game right now.

[Varsoon]

Not really, because if we do a Merlin Hypoclaim, scum have a very assured pool of who Merlin/Arthur are and can just play around those wagons in a way that won't create negative associative information.

I joined this game because I generally enjoy FakeGod games, but I should've realized how tediously governed the entire mechanical system would become. I really can't stand when that happens, even if it does give us a better chance to win. It's just not fun for me.

Honestly, I might dip out just because of that. I dunno.

[Varsoon]

Literally I am beyond caring.
Do whatever you guys want.

[Varsoon]

DVa's the only one I have decent confidence on. I recently played BoR (of which this setup is a watered down version in a lot of ways) and DVa's play there was entirely different.

[Varsoon]

I should probably be more critical of UT and LLD but their posts and bullishness regarding the mechanics resonates with me a lot.

[Varsoon]

Dunnstrall isn't trying to rope me into more mechanics discussion when it's already pissed me off so much the mod warned me to stop.

I'm done talking about mechanics.

Also, I really think people should look at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77673 and try to evaluate if Auro's play here matches how he played in this scum win he literally got today. I'm way way way too close to it to make an unbiased judgment.

[Varsoon]

@SS: Why does it bother you that I hurt tag you? Literally no one else ever will so long as you continue to grandstand as this logical force for the betterment of the game.

[Varsoon]

You weren't aggressively against me, though--your posts all struck from actually looking to work with me and understand my PoV while not making yourself out as some rational counterbalance to my frustrations.

[Varsoon]

How you gonna scumread me for something that I am mod-confirmed not to do anymore?

[Varsoon]

Sorry, homie.
I've literally been playing in newbie games to try to curb this sort of thing because those are often games where I find myself having to deal with people wanting to rules-lawyer against me.
But since I was making progress and generally doing well in those games I thought I'd be fine here
I guess not. :/

[Varsoon]

Cakez, I feel like S_S is going way out of their way to look town like that, though.
Compare to Veridian who is just naturally townie to S_S who is virtue-signaling left and right against me.
It's why I haven't revoked my hurt tag on S_S.

[Varsoon]

Yeah if this was BoR someone would've caught a bullet by now.
What really trips me up is no VCs so it's kinda easy to forget the deadline exists.

[Varsoon]

@MOD: Could we get a Deadline countdown somewhere?

[Varsoon]

Thanks.

And yeah, I'd limit myself to two HURTs and be all for it being kept as a player-based VC.

[Varsoon]

I've played alongside scum!DVa before, and "seriousness" is a part of her scum meta -- just check her games. What makes this stronger is that she won't deny that she *finds it harder* to be chummy as scum. Just ask her that.

Get gladiated so I can lynch you kthxbai

You keep saying that but you keep not dueling.
There's literally nothing keeping you from being the one doing the gladiating other than some sense of self-preservation that you shouldn't even care about because if you're town you can just claim sword.

[Varsoon]

All these cool kids with their alts while I'm keepin it real over here.

I'm not really understanding how pitting two people who are both global scumreads against each other benefits us at all.
Like if they're just both town, doesn't that just heavy implicate the other when the one flips town?

[Varsoon]

Apologies for being 'obnoxious', btw.
I like to think I've stepped a lot down from that since.

Also I still think most people going for sword is important because then it actually gives us a chance arthur gets sword instead of ends up being the mook who doesn't and, on top of that, keeps scum from being able to plan their kill around swordclaimers.

[Varsoon]

@D.VA: I don't see how the cross-gladiate maximizes info versus people just gladiating their biggest scumreads, though.

@S_S: That'd be the case if Arthur knew he was Arthur, but he doesn't, so if Arthur doesn't attempt to get the sword, his chances are always 0. Since no one knows if they are arthur or not other than Merlin, everyone should try to get sword, right?

[Varsoon]

I'll also be honest that I am not following and have no clue what this meta case between Auro and D.Va even is founded on.

[Varsoon]

Is it?
If we're using a system of FoS/Hurts anyway, kinda renders the Gladiate mechanic pointless via governing, since town's just gonna lynch who they think is most scum anyway and scum can bus that anyway just like any other game.
The only difference is when people actually have to commit to a vote but even then since we're treating hurts like vote-level commitment, it's kinda whatever.

Where did Auro make something up?
How are you sure it's made up and not just misunderstanding/derps?
I guess Auro's been leaning on it but I dunno that he's really pushed that as rationale you're scum, or has he?
Like you v auro feels venomless.

[Varsoon]

I dunno, I'd be kinda riled if you were posting untrue stuff about me.

[Varsoon]

@S_S: Still seems like a fallacy though because if arthur doesn't go for the sword then his chances are still 0.

[Varsoon]

@Auro: Ah. Makes sense. That's why it feels venomless to me. It's entirely informed by personal history that you haven't articulated in a way that strikes D.Va down.

[Varsoon]

you know we could potentially have three confirmed town. (i don't know if anyone pointed that out)
merlin confirms arthur.
and sword holder is town.

someone might have said that and i am just not invested in the mechanic talk to read it.

Varsoon just rolled his eyes

SO FKN HARD YOU HAVE NO IDEA

Anyway goin to bed
I feel a lot less passionate about my D.Va read so
HEAL: DVA

[Varsoon]

@Gamma: It's only a multiple-use cop if a non-arthur role gets the sword and suicides with it. Odd-night non-loyal telegraphed-in-thread vigilante isn't cop no matter what way you want to spin it.
I'm going for the sword no matter what.

[Varsoon]

It's my style.

I honestly don't care that much for getting mislynched. I'm not the one making attacks on people, I just push and engage based on things till I'm satisfied.

So, like, a few problems I have with this:
1. I can't read that for shit. It's not transparent to me. I misread you in that recent Newbie and I have no idea what your alignment here is.

2. What does you being 'satisfied' even entail? That's such a nebulous outcome that it seems so damn easy to hide behind as either alignment. I don't think your engagement with either D.Va or Nancy here has helped me read any of the slots involved and, if anything, I find myself glazing over those back-and-forths more than anything.

3. How do you plan on actually netting a town win with this strat? You being 'satisfied' doesn't equate to read accuracy and none of this points towards you doing anything to convince others of who scum/town is.

@S_S: Yes. Your projections on probability are flawed.
Yes, an INDIVIDUAL has 1/12 chance of being Arthur, and, therefore, will always have 1/12 chance of getting Excalibur when moving to claim on N1.
That said, when you take the entire data set in at once, the probability of ARTHUR getting the sword when 12 individuals exist that could be Arthur drops for every one of the 12 that doesn't go for the sword. Yes, you could argue that this is offset by the increased probability of Arthur getting the sword if he is in the pool, but that creates far too much of a risk factor of Arthur being outside of the pool.

[Varsoon]

@Auro: Yes, if we're talking about the probability of an individual being Arthur and getting the sword but since Arthur is NOT INFORMED, everyone should go for the sword because otherwise the probability becomes 0 the second Arthur doesn't go for the sword. Furthermore, if less people go for the sword, there's also a higher probability of scum killing the sword-claimer.

[Varsoon]

So if the chances are 1 in 12 regardless, why would we ever go with a plan where we risk that Arthur doesn't get it solely because he didn't go for it?
Also, kill resolves before claim, so it's 1 in 11 on N1, assuming scum kill non-Merlin.
That's the other thing about talking about this like it's purely probability;
It's not.
You need to also factor in the scum kill as well as the utility that having a claimed Excalibur gets town.
It only hurts town for people to not go after Excalibur

Anyway
Regardless
I'm going after Excalibur no matter what and I'm cool with talking this over more in post-game but it feels pedantic to engage on this front any more.

Can you go more into your reads, S_S? How is this genuine Auro? What feels scum about UT? Why do you need experience to properly read 1/3 of the slots in the game?

[Varsoon]

^ haha I was asking that to S_S
It's surprising that you both have the same baseline here
You're so malleable, Auro
It bothers me

[Varsoon]

What did you make of my response to you earlier?
Same baseline for? Malleable in what sense?

Which response?

Baseline as in coming to the same conclusions that S_S is.
Malleable in that you were quick to find ways that my post applied to you instead of just being like "What? No."

[Varsoon]

It only hurts town for people to not go after Excalibur

Anyway
Regardless
I'm going after Excalibur no matter what and I'm cool with talking this over more in post-game but it feels pedantic to engage on this front any more.

[Varsoon]

Ah, thought you were asking about your response mentioned in 1068.

[Varsoon]

If it's looked at solely as a probability question, yes, the probability is 1 out of 12 no matter what.
However, you're neglecting how the scum kill affects that probability.

@MOD: You said that the kill resolves before the sword is claimed, however, does the kill resolve AFTER or BEFORE it is decided which claimer will get it?
IE:
Is it SCENARIO 1: Player A and B go to claim Sword. Sword will random roll to player A. Scum kill player A. Sword is unclaimed in the morning because A died before they could claim it
or
SCENARIO 2: Player A and B go to claim Sword. Scum kill player A. Claim is rolled post-kill and goes to player B since they are the only one going for Sword?

[Varsoon]

It's it's scenario 1, the only reason I could fathom for you advocating for a pool smaller than all 12 players is if you are scum, as it gives you a higher chance of hitting the recipient before they become BP.

[Varsoon]

Even if he's genuinely engaged with mechanics discussion, I fail to see how that allows us to get a better read on him.
So do you think UT is feigning disinterest in a scummy way here or that we've just got 20 odd pages of mechanics-talk-heavy-content without any votes, which is highly contrary to what most people use as a mode of engaging with the game and forming/pushing reads.
I think the experience thing is a cop-out from taking hard stances on players. So what if you're wrong? At least you dedicated a push towards something you believed in, which provides people with a grounds for figuring out the game.

P-EDIT:
Ohoho, now who's talking probability when you're advocating for a smaller-than-12-claimant pool which literally increases scum's odds of killing the claimant given they can scope the game for people who seem as though they intend to claim.

Picking a player to claim the sword is an awful idea. If scum are actually threatened by town offing its weaker players and the game being 'nightless', they just let the claim go through and then the whole claiming thing is off the table unless that town player literally kills themselves and even then we won't be able to retry until the following night.

[Varsoon]

Yeah I've been assuming it's 2, which is why I realized that it was 1/11 odds to get the sword N1.

[Varsoon]

Eeeeeh probably bad
I imagine most people won't like you taking the gladiate into your own hands like that since the consensus seems to be to gladiate people with majority Hurt tags

[Varsoon]

Why are you adamant to dukes-up against Lady?

[Varsoon]

@Elsa: That makes sense but yeah I'm worried more people'd be critical of you for gladiating like that instead of considering other points.

@Gamma: If I get the sword, cool. If not, whatever.

@S_S: I don't think the sword mechanic ever forces scum to make a sub-optimal kill in this setup.
Also, you can't do both 'We get to handpick who we want our BP IC to be' and 'We get to use the sword to scumhunt'. Doesn't work that way.

@DVa: Why not just split it down the middle and then if we figure we need more time before or after, we adjust accordingly?

[Varsoon]

@S_S: I think we have such different ideas of what is optimal play in this game on such a fundamental level that I don't know that I'll ever be able to reconcile if you suggesting what I see as scum-helping play isn't just you having an approach that's entirely contrary to mine.
I've been wrong far more often than I've been right and it's helped people read me time and time again.
The problem with trying to 'clear a scummy town player who would be strong if confirmed town' has already been outlined--it's too volatile and gives players too much space to sheep that player's worst ideas.

[Varsoon]

HEAL: Everyone
HURT: Something Smart

Since is it Scenario 1, there is literally no reason to try to push for there to be a smaller pool of players claiming Excalibur unless you are scum and want to make it easier to kill the player who would have gotten it.

[Varsoon]

No.
Especially because the second that it becomes 'certain players', scum can kill those certain players and rob us of the mechanic.

[Varsoon]

I agree with Elsa, there's a lot more to be focused on than your convo with me.

[Varsoon]

Confirming any player to claim the sword in advance, is basically a death warrant if they’re town.

Not necessarily...!

If we use it on scummy players, then at some point scum is going to have to stop killing them or the scum kill just becomes an extra lynch. Of course that does give scum a measure of agency in who does end up with the sword (a valid argument against this plan that Varsoon neglected to point out)

uuuuughhhh this is why I hate talking to you

Picking a player to claim the sword is an awful idea. If scum are actually threatened by town offing its weaker players and the game being 'nightless', they just let the claim go through and then the whole claiming thing is off the table unless that town player literally kills themselves and even then we won't be able to retry until the following night.

Also I still think most people going for sword is important because then it actually gives us a chance arthur gets sword instead of ends up being the mook who doesn't and, on top of that, keeps scum from being able to plan their kill around swordclaimers.

2. The problem with 'use the sword to cop players' is that it only works if both town and scum agree to play around it AND if we fail to catch scum with it the first time, it literally won't work because the sword won't become unclaimed unless the townie that claimed it suicides.

If you try to publicly gate who goes for the sword, you don't account for
1. Townies that disregard this shit
2. Scum having control of killing claimants/not
Basically playing around it as a public cop only works once and even then it's iffy.

I've been addressing this issue SINCE I BEGAN TALKING ABOUT THE MECHANIC
Still catching up but I'm so done with S_S right now.

[Varsoon]

So I need to re-read because I thought LLD either didn't understand the mechanic or was reaction-gambiting with the gladiate because the rule is
"All matters are settled with duels, not lynches. Each of you may publicly challenge another to a duel, which gladiates the two of you."
Which I, for some reason, interpreted as "You must write, in bold 'I challenge you to a duel [playername]'." to duel someone.
I was really expecting to come back to no VC and be like, "Guys! We aren't in a duel yet!" but it seems like I'm wrong here.
Now that I know intent was actually real, I gotta go read it like that. Gotta say, though, I'm not a fan of how LLD tried to couch this in some scum bussing meta.

[Varsoon]

Hot take:
Isn't a no lynch here actually not a terrible idea for us?
1. It assures we don't accidentally mislynch Arthur
2. It lets us get an extra day if scum hit our BP

That said I am probably still going to vote one way or another.

[Varsoon]

Do you see yourself never voting out maria/lld? That's what you're suggesting right now, because nolynching now only to turn around and gladiate them day 3 doesn't make sense

That said I am probably still going to vote one way or another.

Radical reading comprehension, Batman

[Varsoon]

I really, really hate that you're trying to justify a ton of your reads by "I have experience with this player" or "I don't have experience with that player"
It does nothing to produce read clarity for anyone other than you and is incredibly easy to hide behind as scum.
Again, I think this is a fundamental difference between how we both approach the game of mafia, but I can't stand it.

[Varsoon]

So it's either:
1. Both are scum, best situation, very unlikely since LLD would just wait for Elsa to gladiate anyway and would be aware a bus gladiate here costs both slots because of Excalibur.
2. One is scum, good situation, also unlikely just off of odds and what makes sense for play, but you're the one with experience; does LLD-scum gladiate town here despite knowing Excalibur guilties her tonight?
3. Both are town, awful situation, not a win-win at all, as we mislynch one and even if we browbeat the other to get the sword, scum can either kill there if they want or avoid it if they're not worried about Maria.

I don't see how it's a win-win either way.
I do agree that LLD challenged Maria to get rid of her because a D1 challenge absolutely condemns the other slot no matter what and either scum-confirm or town-confirms them due to Excalibur.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: LLD

Seems like this solves itself, then.

[Varsoon]

I disagree, I think LLD was guaranteed to lose pretty much any matchup. This Maria move reads like a desperate gambit to induce this kind of WIFOM (I;e why would she do that as scum???) And her read progression on Elsa makes little sense.

I think LLD's ate and random massive burst of activity when Elsa was going to glad her seem pretty transparently scum

Basically this, coupled with misgivings about how the slot's handled reads and the gladiate in general.
I also felt like LLD was trying to be all "I WILL TAKE EXCALIBUR"-vocal to try to town-signal hard but when UT and I did the same, it lessened LLD's chances of being townread for it, and now they're going with a Gladiate under the notion, perhaps, that UT and I will go for the sword even now instead of leaving it up for LLD to pull it.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: LLD

Seems like this solves itself, then.

Are you willing to refrain from grabbing the sword if this flips scum?

Yes.
I was largely being adamant about grabbing the sword in order to lull scum into a false sense of security.
I also was doing it so that I could keep Dva from talking about using Excalibur as a binary cop in gladiates because I did not want scum to realize this would be the case and was hoping scum would gladiate D1 or get gladiated.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: LLD

Seems like this solves itself, then.

Are you willing to refrain from grabbing the sword if this flips scum?

Yes.
I was largely being adamant about grabbing the sword in order to lull scum into a false sense of security.
I also was doing it so that I could keep Dva from talking about using Excalibur as a binary cop in gladiates because I did not want scum to realize this would be the case and was hoping scum would gladiate D1 or get gladiated.

Oh, you wrote 'flips scum'.
Nah, if LLD flips scum then I'm still going for the sword.
If LLD flips town, I'm not because Maria needs to get it.

[Varsoon]

Though I suppose I could also acquiesce to Maria getting it anyway just so that we can be sure this isn't a bus but I don't see scum bussing in this setup, like, fucking ever.

[Varsoon]

I really, really don't understand how you can possibly think it becomes 'double day'.

[Varsoon]

If no one gets the sword N1 I will be pissed
The whole point is to get a BP IC into the game

[Varsoon]

Preferably Arthur

[Varsoon]

Though maybe not since then he'd probably just vig a bunch of townies and lose us the game
so preferably not Arthur so we get 3 ICs

[Varsoon]

@Elsa: Depends on what LLD flips

@DVa: I've been over this again and again in newbie games. Having more ICs on the table to shrink a lynch pool is infinitely better than those ICs not being there. Our ideal play is Arthur, Merlin, and a BP IC all being around in D2. We do the hypo-claim, then play regular but Merlin and BP IC don't gladiate and, in fact, we probably should have someone who isn't hypoclaimed as Arthur to do the gladiate, since otherwise we risk a really really bad situation of the gladiate being between one of those three.

[Varsoon]

Welppp
Hypoclaim time.
Elsa Jay is Arthur.

[Varsoon]

What's your beef with hypoclaim, Kokichi?
It literally allows us to have our cake and eat it when it comes to having Merlin as an IC.
I tried arguing for the efficiency of having outted ICs early because it'd shrink lynch pools but everyone else either neglected that idea or told me it was a trash plan, so /shrugs.

[Varsoon]

Gladiates still have to result in a majority Lynch, though. Why are you talking about it like it isn't?
We can also always no lynch, even though that's not preferable.
So long as we're using Hurt tags and the most Hurt player is gladiating/gladiated, it's essentially a majority lynchee in the gladiate pool.

I'm having a lot of trouble keeping up with this game otherwise.
Is there anything in particular I should look at?

[Varsoon]

Waiting for Penguin to swoop in with "This is Auro's scumgame, Auro dies today"

Why would you be worried about this as town?
Unless you're laying down your scumgame as town for some reason?

[Varsoon]

That face is always way more sly looking that I intend it.
So when I see other people use it, it seems like a kinda wink and a nudge emoticon more than a joking-around one
My : P is kind of a 'blah' face.
Kinda more
https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/925463-adventure-time

[Varsoon]

I think it's the tongue in the middle and the eyebrows that make that more sinister than a regular : P

[Varsoon]

Yeah you can use :p but that's definitely more joking than : P for me, again, it's something about the off-centered 'tongue'.

[Varsoon]

But yeah if you meant :p that makes sense but still

[Varsoon]

I thought you were town in that last game and I think you're town here. :/

[Varsoon]

Yeah that's the problem
You snowed the shit out of me last game, especially because of how you handled that early wagon with Egix and how it left me thinking it was town v town wagon.

So, I know that you're really observant and capable of being appeasing as scum
But also fairly aware of your own play and cognizant moving forward
It makes it difficult to pin you down, even with interactions.

[Varsoon]

Like I said, I wanna say you're town here, too, but ugh.
Like even you sweeping back into mechanics talk with spoilers= tags strikes me as particularly anti-town and appeasing.

[Varsoon]

Well exactly--they were against the mech-talk, so you doing it in spoiler tags appeases them while also sticking to something they don't like. It's both worlds.
But I don't think that's particularly alignment indicative, either way, though I have no basis for how you actually play as town.

I saw Mech talk as anti-town because it distanced us from the game at hand and because the best possible use of Excalibur was everyone going for it N1 and the best use of other roles is not talking about them at all until D2 at least.

[Varsoon]

That's what I'm saying. It's stubborn and likely to not look great, which is WIFOM. Yes, it's some third-level play, so it won't make sense, but that's

the point

.
Especially because the goal of such play is to make town go "Well it doesn't *benefit* scum!Auro to keep talking mechanics, so I'd think he would've stopped by then..."

I wish no one would lurk but I am having a lot of personal trouble getting into game so eh

I think Dunn's probably just wrong about Maria. I think Maria is town. I hope Maria got the sword.
I don't think lynching Lurker slots is especially fruitful, especially given scum could just be the active players.
We should try to encourage those lurkers to be more of a part of the game, if possible.

[Varsoon]

Was it? Who's scumreading you right now?
The whole point of a gamble is that there's risks involved but a reward as well, Auro.

Yeah, I am heavily reminded of our last game, where I'm dubious of the actually active slots and there's a handful of lurker slots that I'm worried are ALL just town.

[Varsoon]

If the 'reward' is even less outwardly good, that's what makes it a better level-3 play for scum, because then they can go, "Why would I even do that as scum, the reward would be too low!"
It's all those WIFOMY games.
Once you figure out what level someone operates on, it's easy to cut past the BS and figure out if they're tricking you or being genuine.

Who do you believe to be deliberately lurking? How can that even be gauged? Is there a player who you think is scum in a cozy position who's good to lurk out right now?

[Varsoon]

Treating something NAI when it makes up a lot of posts still means you're NOT being scumread for it despite being active, which is what scum want.

[Varsoon]

I thought we were gonna go with whoever had second-most?

I'm wondering exactly where Kokichi has been. Has their activity dropped off the last few days across the site or is it just here?
'cus they've had, like, 1 post in 2 days here
Which is a bit low for them
don't ya think?
Especially with pressure and all
I dunno.

[Varsoon]

Hybrid Theory was a really good album.

[Varsoon]

Inb4 Kokichi is caught scum trying to out a real merlin counterclaim.

[Varsoon]

Hope your vacation was dope tho.

[Varsoon]

I think that Merlin should claim both swordholder and Arthur.
If we have more than one Merlin claim, then we can sort that out on subsequent days.

[Varsoon]

Actually factually
If we lynch Maria and Maria flips town with Sword
Then Elsa is lying and probably scum.
Right?

[Varsoon]

You're full of shit.
I'm Merlin.
Elsa Jay is Arthur.
Maria R has the sword.

I faked hard at grabbing the sword N1 to throw scum off my scent and not kill me N1.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Firebringer

[Varsoon]

I always have a lot of trouble actually reading you, Maria.
So a blacklist would save me a bunch of headache.
But also I wouldn't get to play with you anymore.
And that'd be kinda sad, 'cus I enjoy playing with you.

[Varsoon]

<3
It's a nice feeling.

[Varsoon]

I love BLEACH
Maybe I should run a series of BLEACH games
now that the manga is over.

[Varsoon]

I love BLEACH
Maybe I should run a series of BLEACH games
now that the manga is over.

WHY IS IT NOW THAT I FINALLY CHANGE OFF AN ORIHIME AVI PEOPLE LIKE BLEACH.
Also please do this I wanna join it I wanna play it I'll love you forever

I loved BLEACH forever
I even loved it during the Fullbringer Arc
Kubo's style just clicked with me.
The recent live action film on Netflix was even pretty good, though the copy-cat tracks only remind me of how good Shiro Sagisu's work on season 1 was.

Can you do it in like atleast April though? After American tax season and shit. I want to enjoy it when I'm not being swamped by everything.

Yeah it'll probably be after the next two or three games I have planned for the upcoming months so no sweat.

I still think the lynch here is Firebringer.

[Varsoon]

At the same time, I think a "real" Merlin would've called out Dunn's claim, so Dunn is definitely Merlin. Meh

Can you explain a bit more about the Firebringer read? You mentioned D1 interactions, which ones?

...did you not see me claim?

[Varsoon]

This is why I don’t want to be in this game, because the mechanics are hopelessly scumsided and the only chance town really has, is for everyone to rigorously ashere to the majority hurt tag ideas, which doesn’t seem to be happening and if Dunn is telling the truth here, then we essentially have a useless, and vigless MIA Arthur. So, scum can pretty much do jack and town will just sooner or later canabalize itself and hand them the win.

Yeah it's wild
Like if we just did what I suggested
We'd be fine.
But no one listen to Varsoon
That's a bad idea!

[Varsoon]

I know Maria has the sword, it's not a matter of belief.

[Varsoon]

omg it's Chara
Chara!!!
I am hardly ever on this side of the setup with you!

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: Firebringer

Done, right?
I'm also of the mind that a no lynch buys us nothing here.

[Varsoon]

me 4

[Varsoon]

Do you think scum-Nancy would be this outspoken about Fire flipping town?
If he's town, do you see her trying to get towncred like this?
If he's scum, do you think town Nancy would defend this hard?

[Varsoon]

What I'm asking is if town Nancy has a history of defending other players this hard.

Elsa is Arthur and Maria has the sword, I've already been over this shit.
Lynch Fire.

[Varsoon]

@Dva: Here's the problem with lynching an actual sword holder at the time; Scum is FAR MORE likely to be able to parse out who Arthur and Merlin are based on the hypo and fake claims, meaning that Arthur never gets the sword, Merlin dies, and we're heading into a D3 where scum kills Arthur and even if town gets the sword, scum can claim they got the sword as well, so it's no longer a hard IC D4.

[Varsoon]

Jay can also just be Arthur faking to have the sword.

[Varsoon]

I really like the whole part of Shrek that takes place in Duloc.
Love the bit where Shrek tries to introduce himself to the guy in the mascot outfit, who runs screaming down the aisles.
Such a good movie.

[Varsoon]

No, Auro, I cc'd Dunnstral. Get your facts straight.
Anyway, No Lynching in this setup is not great.
The only way we catch scum, short of Arthur killing with the sword, is by lynching.
A No Lynch puts us 1 day closer to LYLO no matter what but with less info.
In a game where our PRs are as telegraphed as they are, it's a bad idea.

[Varsoon]

Irrelephant isn't in this game, though?

[Varsoon]

@Cakez: Isn't the whole reason we lynch people because they

could

be scum?
Like if it's a binary decision between MariaR, who I know is confirmed town, and Firebringer, who I am fucking shrugs over, I'm voting FB every time.

[Varsoon]

Well, that should at least make it really clear who was faking about being Merlin or not.

[Varsoon]

I figured Kokichi was right and was covering for him.
Since so many people had already claimed Merlin, I was hoping to smokescreen it so our Merlin wouldn't get shot.
I also figured that Kokichi was not lying and I did not want Maria to take the chance at the shot regardless, which is why I said that Elsa was Arthur.
Was hoping the scum kill would have just been on me or Elsa and that my smokescreen would pay off.
Guess it kinda did anyway since now we've got 2 confirmed town alive and kicking.

[Varsoon]

Wait a minute.
Didn't we just lose?

[Varsoon]

No, okay, wheh, I got the numbers all wrong.
Right now we're at
12 alive with 4 scum.
So even if we mislynch AND maria misses, we're at
9 and 4.

So Maria can only afford to miss one shot and we can only afford to ML twice.

[Varsoon]

No, because then Elsa would flip as Arthur, right?

[Varsoon]

Wait shit no then Elsa wouldn't have died when using sword.
Derp.
No, then sword would be UNCLAIMED.

[Varsoon]

Non-Arthur couldn't have failed because sword is still claimed.

[Varsoon]

Yeah I realized that after and was like
Man I am dumb.

[Varsoon]

...is the game just kinda on hiatus until Maria R gets back, then?

[Varsoon]

...isn't it obvious?
It's because Chara's Merlin and you're Arthur.

[Varsoon]

I'm fine with the targets, not so much the timing.

[Varsoon]

Wow
You made that easy for me.

Anyway before we turbolynch NK15, we should STILL let Maria come back.

[Varsoon]

Any other thoughts, UT?
Haven't heard from you in awhile, iirc.

[Varsoon]

What's everyone's current V/LA status?

[Varsoon]

Why does it feel like half the game isn't posting at all?

[Varsoon]

What's everyone's current V/LA status?

I'm here. Anything I should look at, specifically?

Merlin claim spread,
VCA,
that kinda thing seems like something you'd be into.

[Varsoon]

Well there nothing to really argue about

Honestly feels like NK15 is a scum fall-guy and gladiated early to try to snip town from discussing/figuring out more because outside of NK15 we're going in the wrong direction.

[Varsoon]

I think that it's still worth looking at how people have been voting and using hurt tags, regardless.

[Varsoon]

What makes me especially uncomfortable is NK15's proposed plan and actual play revolving around gladiating before MariaR, who is almost certainly BP conf-town, returns.

[Varsoon]

@Auro: Evidence that dunn and NK15 are same-side, then.

[Varsoon]

Makes sense to me, yeah.
I don't know why anyone would try to push for gladiate stuff to happen when we're all not here.

[Varsoon]

Ah, I thought he was saying he'd gladiate like right when Maria 'should be around' but it was basically just 2 days out and not assured.
Didn't he post a countdown or was that NK15?

[Varsoon]

Setting a hard deadline when we don't know the actual particulars is scummy.
It should've been a soft deadline, like "When Maria gets back and we come to a consensus"
With a hard deadline, NK15, who's been set up to be lynched no matter what, if scum, gets to break that hard deadline and Dunn can seem town in juxtaposition.

Does that make sense or am I thinking everyone else is a batman villain like me?
Tinfoil, moonlogic, etc?
'cus it makes sense to me.

[Varsoon]

Also don't like the wording of 'Pulling an Elsa'
1. It likens Dunn to Elsa, who's flipped town.
2. We saw how great 'pulling an Elsa' turned out.
3. NK15 was going to be the gladiate no matter what short of a troll gladiate, so it's an empty gesture.

It just strikes me as posturing.

[Varsoon]

How would Maria give a specific time?
I'm pretty sure NK15 flips scum here.
Him knowing too much on entry coupled with the Merlin fake coupled with the general lurking, low content, and troll gladiate all reads real off to me.

[Varsoon]

Real talk Arthur has Sword so if it's not Maria and we somehow lucked out that's amazing.

@Nancy: What if that was just to direct actual-sword-holder-Arthur who Maria is covering for?

[Varsoon]

Wouldn't THAT be wild?
I don't think it's likely though.
I've been playing as though Maria were Sword-Holder and Kokichi was not lying.

[Varsoon]

So those are my assumptions until proven wrong, I suppose.

[Varsoon]

Now I'm starting to worry about a situation where Merlin hasn't been killed by LYLO and scum actually do get away with counterclaiming.
Please don't let any Merlin-fakers get close to LYLO.
I suppose that includes me. :/

[Varsoon]

Then why'd you lie before when you claimed Merlin?

[Varsoon]

Because Merlin says so.

Now vote fire

Bullshit.
I am Merlin. Firebringer is Arthur.
Lynch MariaR.

VOTE:MariaR

Like right here

[Varsoon]

Unless he's scum.
Then Maria could deconfirm, at least.

I think the fake-claim is responsible for us at least having BOTH Arthur AND Merlin still alive today, fwiw.

[Varsoon]

Just callin it how I see it, hombre.

[Varsoon]

I mean I gotta imagine it's because no one shot at you ever and if you submitted a kill with the sword it's because you're Arthur.

[Varsoon]

Kokichi, why'd you call Auro as NK15's partner?

[Varsoon]

Ya'll. We don't need to be antagonizing each other here.
That's how we had the situation we had on D1.

Nancy, I don't know that I've ever seen you use a swear. Take a breath.

[Varsoon]

3 of these have to be scum:

Nancy Drew 39
Gamma Emerald
Dunnstral
Untrod Tripod
Chara
PenguinPower

It's basically an informed 50/50
Kokichi, you're talking like we lose here but if we lynch a scum and shoot a scum, we win instantly.
Scum only win if they get to equal our numbers or more
So if we mislynch, we STILL get another day so long as Arthur DOES NOT SHOOT.

I don't think Nancy's scum.

Can someone collect all the Merlin claims and hypoclaims?
We can parse pretty easily from those if scum actually know who Merlin is, right?

[Varsoon]

Okay, I was starting to worry.
I've been kinda hyper-sensitive to people's rhetoric in games since I caught a signup ban.

[Varsoon]

Why do you think that is?
What's the scum comp if they're unable to parse this kind of a puzzle?

[Varsoon]

I really, really wish Chara or UT would get in game.

[Varsoon]

I dunno, I don't think scum Chara ever proposes a gladiate on town here because we've got an extra day anyway, so it'd just get them lynched D5.
So Chara's either town with whatever UT is
or Chara and UT is scum and it's a bus that buys us more time regardless.
I'm for it.

[Varsoon]

Haven't we lynched or killed the other candidate every day so far?
Gladiating town def wouldn't be the play scum Chara would do here.

[Varsoon]

Maybe in LYLO.

[Varsoon]

So, same thing turned around to you, Chara:
Do you think that UT, as scum, proposes the gladiate be between themselves and town when the townflip looks really bad for them here and we've got another day to play?

[Varsoon]

It's kinda interesting because I am absolutely sure that if one of you three is scum, then there's gotta be a town common denominator between you all.

[Varsoon]

I'm interested in who Penguin thinks should be the gladiate.

[Varsoon]

I guess you could all be the three remaining scum and that could be theater, but since we only need 2 more scum down to win, I really don't think that's the case.
It feels like there's gotta be one scum at least in the 3 of you, with at least 1, probably 2 scum on the sidelines trying not to get too involved/dragged in/hoping this gladiate ends up town v town, either within the 3 of you or by one of you gladiating outside the 3.

By town common denominator, I mean the person that, between the three of you, is likely to be town from both a town and a scum PoV--someone you'd gladiate as scum but townread as town, that's common between all 3.
Does that make sense?
If we could figure that out, it'd make the gladiating two fairly obvious, imo.

[Varsoon]

Scum need to scrape out two more mislynches in a row, here.
Even losing one scum is a huge problem for them, because it puts them 1 away from losing while town's still got two confirmed town, one of which is bulletproof.
So first and foremost
Scum don't want to be in the gladiate at all
And then if they have to be, they're going to want the other player to be town, given how every gladiate so far has gone.
So if you three go, for instance:
Chara: Penguin is scum, UT is town. I will gladiate Penguin.
UT: Penguin is scum, Chara is town. I will gladiate Penguin.
Penguin: UT is scum, Chara is town. I will gladiate UT.
Then that makes this
Assuming each person is TOWN and TOWNREADING ACCURATELY
Chara 2 votes, UT 1 vote.
Assuming each person is SCUM and TRYING TO LYNCH TOWN.
Penguin 2 votes, Chara 2 votes.

Since Chara has 4 votes, Chara is most likely to be town here.

From solely considering the gladiates and reads out of context.
Yeah it is a little at odds now that I look at it but that's what I mean.

[Varsoon]

I'm proposing looking at it this way because all three of you don't have a ton of other content to judge you by, which kinda sucks.

[Varsoon]

I think he was fairly well townread, but my memory is kinda shit and I'm pretty overgamed at the moment.
I also think it might've had to do with the multiple merlin-claims and fakes, but I'd have to go back and see all of who claimed what to verify for sure.

[Varsoon]

so...?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: UT

I don't like how much the gladiate mechanic affects the gameflow/postingflow.

[Varsoon]

I don't catch the reference.

[Varsoon]

Penguin, who would you gladiate out of UT and Chara?

[Varsoon]

Spoiler: Excuse me, what

[Varsoon]

Why didn't Maria say anything about Kokichi, then?

[Varsoon]

Did Maria ever claim who Arthur was?

[Varsoon]

So does Maria want to talk about that straight up scum flailing at the end of the day there, or what?

Cute.
Kokichi is arthur

Yeah so Koki's Arthur, right?
I don't understand why scum wouldn't shoot one of Gamma/Dunnstal.
I think scum's got to be three of Gamma/Dunn/Penguin/Chara.

[Varsoon]

We're at 7 alive.

@MOD: If we no-lynch right now and there's a kill on scum and a kill on town, what happens?
Does the scum kill resolve first and we lose because scum was at even numbers as town?

I don't think we can no lynch and go into a 6th day, since then it'd be 3/3 and we'd auto-lose.

[Varsoon]

Welp.

[Varsoon]

@Chara: I think I'm biased about you given my particular experience with you in games I have modded, which is something that I struggle with around pretty much any player.
Like how I was sure Cerb was 3P in the recent Overkill game because his play was reminding me so much of SaGa Frontier and since I have such a tonal baseline for RR as a hydra due to something like 10+ games modded of theirs.

I still don't think you propose a gladiate on town UT if you're scum. That sort of play is much more in UT's wheelhouse.
It's why I think that if you're scum here, you're playing a tonally consistent town game but taking measures that I'd not expect, either out of WIFOM or desperation.
I also don't see you advising a shot on potential BP after taking such a huge risk move.
That's why I think it's more likely that others are scum before you are, and if they advised/orchestrated/coached your play, that'd make sense to me.

[Varsoon]

So does Maria want to talk about that straight up scum flailing at the end of the day there, or what?

Cute.
Kokichi is arthur

Yeah so Koki's Arthur, right?
I don't understand why scum wouldn't shoot one of Gamma/Dunnstal.
I think scum's got to be three of Gamma/Dunn/Penguin/Chara.