Open 741: Red Flag [Endgame]

[Keyser Söze]

/CONFIRM

[Keyser Söze]

Been gagging for this to start all weekend.



[^ Disclaimer: not a werewolf ]

[Keyser Söze]

Curious to see what happens when the worst meets Radiant Cowbells


P.EDIT I can’t see your font bro (I have the dark background).

[Keyser Söze]

1. Played 25-50 games (still learning, but regained my love of the game this year)
2. Scum role where we could send messages into the thread, the playerlist took it as mod sanctioned real posts, so we controlled the game and lynches (I prefer playing VT though).
3. Dogs (very loving, playful and loyal).

[Keyser Söze]

(Don’t know players above and below me,

but... in a weird way, I like solving the game with TW, whether he is town or scum - I get alot out of our interactions).

[Keyser Söze]

Have we played together Clemency?

[Keyser Söze]

Looked better compared to 500000
I might just have to fetch my exact color. That’ll be a pain.

Now you’re the mod colour

[Keyser Söze]

Curious to see what happens when the worst meets Radiant Cowbells


P.EDIT I can’t see your font bro (I have the dark background).

Radical Cowboots? Never heard of him!
Why does the tw/rc dynamic interest you so much?

RC is another player whose direct playstyle

makes things happen

.
I am expecting prime bang for the buck here


Do we have a full house now?

[Keyser Söze]

Hi RadiantCowbells, how have you been? x

[Keyser Söze]

I remember that game!

I'm a bit more impatient now though.

[Keyser Söze]

LYNCH ALL LIARS.

I'm the jester!

[Keyser Söze]

So, any thoughts on anyone’s alignment?

Unadulterated LAMIST question. I feel Gamma has stepped way too hard on the game-solve gas pedal here (in a unnatural / forced way)

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Keyser Söze]

So, any thoughts on anyone’s alignment?

Unadulterated LAMIST question. I feel Gamma has stepped way too hard on the game-solve gas pedal here (in a unnatural / forced way)

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Nice double standard jackass.

“Jackass”?! Ok, accepted.

“Double standard”? Nope.
Your question and my vote are different Mr Gamma.

[Keyser Söze]

I personally think the last line saved it.

[Keyser Söze]

Searching for a replacement for the worst.

This is very sad news. Hope everything is ok brother x

[Keyser Söze]

Im more talking about you voting me for the exact opposite reason of American Presidents. What do you expect from me? And don’t try to talk about “I thought that was the norm” because you know I’ve tryharded as town before (maybe, don’t remember our exact meta).
This doesn’t make you scum btw, it just upsets me.

Interesting mention RE: American Presidents. Perhaps it would have been more strategic for scum-Gamma coming into this game imitating the ‘lack of drive’ demonstrated by town-Gamma in that game. I did not mean to upset you, my paranoia-feels are real and I wanted to call it out:
- also echoed by your subsequent RQS analysis

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler:

Curious to see what happens when the worst meets Radiant Cowbells

weird - for 2 players that have been onsite for so long, I would think they'd have bumped into each other

-LH

^ kinda cherrypicking in my opinion

Spoiler:

All this talk about jesters - you guys sure you're in the right game and not in Jester Nightless by Jingle, instead? lol

Also, shouldn't we be careful about who we vote? Because if scum is well coordinated, then after we vote, they could just pile on all 4 as 4 more votes.

^ kinda really lamist if I compare him here to a Micro I saw him playing
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[/quote]
Welcome Nibbui!

I think our degree or view of LAMIST is different regarding Gamma and MEME MAN.

I would see MEME’s posts as NAI/set up talk/part RVS filler.

However, Gamma’s entrance was more strained:
- asking other players their thoughts on the alignment of players during pre-game (where most players were just meme’ng) (?)

[Keyser Söze]

yikes. This one lied about meta with me. That’s a solid scum marker.

I'm well aware of that, and was waiting to see when you would notice.
GE is likely town due to his reaction. Yes, I do remember playing with you. You even fake claimed this bus driver role with parity cop fake claim from mariar. Too funny

-LH

Why is Gamma’s reaction more likely from town-Gamma?

Would have scum-Gamma not called you out too, or kept quiet?

[Keyser Söze]

@Clemency - sad to hear

[Keyser Söze]

RE: RQS:

Alright, here’s my RQS analysis. This is based on tone and how I judge their responses based on what I think they would say, a bit in the Ellibereth style:

Keyser Söze: kinda interesting
Clemency: meh
Pintu:
the worst: meh
Springtrap: very weird, especially the response to 3
ceejay: eh null
MEME MEN: yikes. This one lied about meta with me. That’s a solid scum marker.

vote: THE MEME MEN

Please can you share why the “interesting”/“weird” items are interesting to you.

[I feel like these are forced reads again ]

[Keyser Söze]

i just can't really handle a game that starts super serious based off next to nothing
not to mention it feels like everyone suddenly hates everyone

The party has just begun mate.
Everyone hasn’t posted yet, plus, no one ‘hates’ anyone here.

[Keyser Söze]

@Nib - ok, yes I will concede I can see shades of over-the-top precaution in that post from MEME.

[Keyser Söze]

Welcome Volxen!

[Keyser Söze]

@Blackjacks - thoughts on Gamma and MEME’s entrances?

You seem to have bypassed the ‘serious’ discussion.

[Keyser Söze]

I blame TW

[Keyser Söze]

I think those big posts are usually NAI (I bet they dump that regardless of alignment), but it’s how they move from that organically during early game that is more interesting.

I.e it took BJ 10 posts before he took his first meaningful bite into the game (after I pushed him for it) - behaviour I had flagged in my head.

“Games boring” - then do something pro-active

“Meme kinda scummy” - what’s he doing about that?

[Keyser Söze]

BoP scum?

[Keyser Söze]

I would like to re-bump this:

yikes. This one lied about meta with me. That’s a solid scum marker.

I'm well aware of that, and was waiting to see when you would notice.
GE is likely town due to his reaction. Yes, I do remember playing with you. You even fake claimed this bus driver role with parity cop fake claim from mariar. Too funny

-LH

Why is Gamma’s reaction more likely from town-Gamma?

Would have scum-Gamma not called you out too, or kept quiet?

@MEME MEN

[Keyser Söze]

Why haven’t I found scum in ISO 28?

[Keyser Söze]

@Gamma
Are you comfortable with MEME’s town read of you?

[Keyser Söze]

@Gamma
Are you comfortable with MEME’s town read of you?

I wasn’t aware that was a townread, seemed more like a jab with no real thoughts on my alignment?

I was talking about this post (not the avatar post):

yikes. This one lied about meta with me. That’s a solid scum marker.

I'm well aware of that, and was waiting to see when you would notice.

GE is likely town due to his reaction.

Yes, I do remember playing with you. You even fake claimed this bus driver role with parity cop fake claim from mariar. Too funny

i.e is that a rational/natural conclusion from town!MEME? I thought it was cheap.

[Keyser Söze]

i think tw slot and keyser slot are svs

actually nevermind that's stupid

Yes, don't confuse mutual adoration and sensual affection with SvS.

so uh let's see

gamma and meme men - scummy entrances?
blackjacks - prepared post pregame?

I don't feel like hopping on any of these tbh

Have you picked out anything alignment indicative so far? I feel like your post was missing a sentence at the bottom.

[Keyser Söze]

ACTIVITY Praise The Lord

What I meant is that your tone is completely different here. You are leading conversations, when you usually go for the one liner. You're using exclamation points, when you usually don't. No matter how much you contribute, it always feels like you stay on the fence; I'm not feeling that here. I think you've deliberately changed your playstyle in here so you could not be read by meta. I don't know what to think about that, since I don't think that's a thing that only scum would do.

Interesting... @Gamma would you say you have consciously made an effort to change your style/aura this game?

Ah thanks. I’d probably call that out as either alignment? Is there a different reason that is town?

just your tone of your reply. that and I noticed everyone else was replying with bland answers to your rqs so I thought, "if I put something obviously false, how would he respond to that reaction test?"

-LH

Hmm so a planned reaction test within a reaction test I can

maybe

buy that. I did think it was cheap read though, (I had a scum-scum theory fermenting between you two in my head: t/reading and letting eachother off the hook too easily/softly)... but now gonna take a step back and look at you individually.

[Keyser Söze]

I like Nibbui so far. I was looking at his progression and interactions with both MEME and Aster: I can see him genuinely trying to draw out their intentions/motivations for himself and for eachother (not in a scummy-referee way). I feel Nibbui has been the most 'open' voice so far this game, and like their focus on Gamma and MEME.


Aster has begun the game very intense/aggressively:

"✓ Statement meant to look townish;
✓ Statement not actually helpful."
"Lemme get our facts straight"
"Let me walk you through his post."
"More facts:"
"Going Deeper"

He/she is demonstrating confidence, pushing very directly/pointedly and I would say possessing over-confidence/arrogance in their own scum hunting ability which I find interesting (and pretty towny). I want to see them post more in real time though, with a more relaxed disposition.

[Keyser Söze]

I looked through the userposts feature and it doesnt show anyone by the name of Volxen despite the mod putting that down. But then I clicked the link and realized they replaced the worst. I was null on that person before they disappeared, so I'm still null on them.

I'm still waiting for you to fire your first arrow.
Is your vote still in RVS?

[Keyser Söze]

This playerlist is tough, struggling for tangible reads. This is where I need RC to take my hand

[Keyser Söze]

I remember townreading Aster. Springtrap's posts look pretty bland, but nothing there pings as scummy to me yet.

Yeah, Springtap hasn't posted anything outright scummy, but then I just clicked on his ISO... I have a feeling he hasn't made a movement so far as to not upset anyone. I need to see him break some egg shells.

[Keyser Söze]

Problem is, I'm absolutely baffled by Gamma at this point; I've never seen him put that much effort in any game I've been with him before, and I've seen him as VT, town PR and scum, so I don't know what to say about his effort in here.

i dont think ive seen you even played with GE for awhile until this game. As scum he comes across quite town. As town he's more...casual I guess

-LH

Sorry to beat the Gamma-MEME drum again, but what version of Gamma are you seeing this game?

'coming across quite town'

or

"casual"

? Wasn't sure if this was a meta defence of Gamma.

[Keyser Söze]

Mmmmmh, do you think it's a good idea to tell him that right now? Don't you think we could gain more by not saying anything for more some time?

I particularly think that not doing anything is pretty telling itself, but we can argue about that I guess

In a game like this where the scum:town ratio is so high, I feel we need everyone to stand up. We're at a stage where we should be pointing fingers. There is no town PR-gambit to stay low radar.

[Keyser Söze]

Mmmmmh, do you think it's a good idea to tell him that right now? Don't you think we could gain more by not saying anything for more some time?

I particularly think that not doing anything is pretty telling itself, but we can argue about that I guess

In a game like this where the scum:town ratio is so high, I feel we need everyone to stand up. We're at a stage where we should be pointing fingers. There is no town PR-gambit to stay low radar.

Yeah but don't you think that instead of a PR-gambit he just may not be that interested in solving or getting in conflict and that might means

that

?

I prefer my narrative right now which stops him from getting comfortable.

[Keyser Söze]

Playing in another game with Volx and he’s a no show there too.

[Keyser Söze]

Catching up later this morning x

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: Not sure I'm buying that this 'swag' from Firebringer is real.

RC i am sheeping u and i am assuming ur town.
tell me what to do

ohh wait rc is phoning in this game....
ill sheep keyser.
keyser r u town?

this game is so content dry i think some of my posts are better than most of ur guys iso.
thats sad.
i guess i should lead the town to a lose here instead of letting anyone dictate my vote.

no.

VOTE: aster

this person could be a threat to my town leadership role.

why haven't u sheeped me on disaster aster

That vote on Aster is awkward (?) too IMO (if the game is "content dry" why self-indulge in RVS?). It's like Firebringer has entered the thread wearing a mask.

[Keyser Söze]

Comments in

green

:

---

Blackjacks

"Lurker" captivates most of what can be said about them. They haven't posted a grain of content until I accused THE MEME MEN, after which they haven't posted a grain of content that was not related to THE MEME MEN. This makes me suspicious because I think THE MEME MEN is scum, but I probably shouldn't start association hunting this until scumflips happen. At least some of his questions (300 & 307) raised valid points.

This particular post is an eyesore:

People who shitpost in Mafia games are the scum of the earth, which makes them Literally mafia. I wanted to make sure everyone understood my Stance on the issue.

... says the shitposter. Not sure why, but for some reason I interpret this as "I have no intention to ever start contributing to this game."

I'm not sure I understand this interpretation: i.e I don't think I see that obvscum-BJ narrative.

Most unfortunately lurking isn't alignment indicative, which makes it hard for me to establish any proper read on them.

---

Gamma Emerald

There seems to be a lot of discussion about Gamma Emerald's meta. I won't comment on his meta, but unlike what some people claim, he doesn't seem very high effort or gamesolvey to me in this game.

His biggest contribution consisted of his RQS. After his RQS was handled, his contributions mostly consisted of (1) answering questions, and (2) asking others to explain something. Both of them are fairly safe methods of active lurking. Even the posts that others call LAMISTy such as 52 could be interpreted as trying to make others do the thinkwork rather than Gamma himself.

His active lurking while dancing around "my meta has changed" and calling it a town meta (323) does draw my attention as potentially scummy.

I have had a problem trying to 'get' Gamma's tone this game. Looking at his ISO, most of his posts have been looking at himself, or players interactions (or lack of interaction) with him:

"I very much dislike the case on me, but all I’ve been able to pick out for why comes back to OMGUS."
"Also I would expect to be catching more attention for one of my recent posts."
"Does no one want to engage me even when I provide a general reason to?"
"Thought more people would poke me for admitting to being OMGUSy."

What do you think of this behaviour?

---

Keyser Söze

Reading through Keyser Söze's ISO, I get the impression that he's somewhere inbetween an active lurker and an active player. His posts contain a fair amount of noise. The extent of it that isn't noise is divided into questions and short opinions. It seems he suddenly had a bump of productivity on the current page and was more lurky if you look at his ISO before post 319.

My early bursts of activity was more to do with my timezone (no one is usually awake in the morning to talk to, and the majority of activity gets posted in the late evening.) I think my content elevates me out the "active lurker" bracket . The "noise" is me enjoying the game (which was more pregame anyway).

The questions he does ask do often seem to be relevant and often make me wonder about the answer to it as well. To that extent he's helpful.

So far Keyser Söze has given me no concrete reasons to think he's town nor reasons to believe he's scum. I'm writing him as "neutral"..

[Keyser Söze]

It's like Firebringer has entered the thread wearing a mask.

Do you have experience with Fire?

Have you misread him? If yes, why so?

We have definitely played together (1-2 years ago?) but can't remember his meta/if he was town/scum.
May dig up our game(s) together later.

[Keyser Söze]

Keyser, I only poked at with-me interactions where you listed them because I felt I’d sunk out of the conversation along with the pre-established feeling like that post should have gotten some attention.

Catching up with the thread I think I may have miss-read your soft/victim/vulnerable vibe

[Keyser Söze]

u wont like me playing serious if u read a game of me serious. i am a drama llama when i get cereal

Yes please. Engage 'drama llama'.

I dont know what part of this game to take seriously anymore. I dont think that's a good sign.

Another post about the game climate instead of actively sorting players with any direction.

Nibbui and ceejay are probably town

What are you seeing "probably town" in ceejay?

[Keyser Söze]

ok, MEME and RC are never scum-scum here

[Keyser Söze]

Catching up with the thread I think I may have miss-read your soft/victim/vulnerable vibe

Explain when and why you got that vibe? I don’t feel like I’ve been playing that way at all.

Really?

Sensitive overreaction/sensitive:

"Nice double standard jackass"
"it just upsets me."
"What a welcoming bunch."

Self-focus softness:

"What do you expect from me?"
"Pretty sure I put significant effort in during the Tit For Tat we were in"
"Eh? What’s this about? What’s the relationship between me and that gif to you?"
"I very much dislike the case on me, but all I’ve been able to pick out for why comes back to OMGUS."
"Explain when and why you got that vibe? I don’t feel like I’ve been playing that way at all."

( )

Why be on the defensive foot?:

"Also I would expect to be catching more attention for one of my recent posts."
"Does no one want to engage me even when I provide a general reason to?"
"Thought more people would poke me for admitting to being OMGUSy."

I presume this one was not serious though (?):

Are you gonna seriously just stonewall me when I’m trying to have a real discussion

[Keyser Söze]

3) i think you guys underestimate just how scummy it is that she decided volxen was scum before he posted and stuck with the read after

This aroused my scumdar at the time too...

I think the strength/intensity of the read did not reflect the amount of 'supporting' evidence.

[Keyser Söze]

Take a step back and calm down.

"You think my post where I said I was trying to have real discussion was NOT serious?"

I'm reading your ISO, and this post was just after your "1This argument proudly sponsored by ASSLUST." post. I may have just miss-read your tone here. I missed the part where BJ called you cringey. (i'm still in catchup mode).


RE:

"self-focus softness"

You cannot disagree that you have been overly-focused on yourself this game. Yes, I asked you to look at your meta, but outside this, you have been talking about yourself a lot.

I am trying to understand your self-consciousness

. Do not call it "gibberish". If you are not willing to understand my opinion, why ask me to explain it?

[Keyser Söze]

The ASSLUST thing was a reference to Ectomancer's signature. That was a funny aside in an otherwise serous comment.
As for the "self-focus softness", why not just call it self-consciousness? The way you phrased it sounded like some nonsense that was different from what you were saying. As for the actual question, I sometimes try to use interactions with myself to read others. Others do it too with undefined (because I haven't gotten an answer from them or checked myself) success rates, but generally I find the results unimpressive when it comes to getting townread. However, I think it's fair at actually getting reads. And honestly, getting scumread might be better than getting townread in a perverse way as town for this specific setup.

"The way you phrased it sounded like some nonsense"

- I use adjectives to best describe/encapsulate my fear/paranoia.

"I sometimes try to use interactions with myself to read others"

- ok, I can buy that. I sometimes do that myself

[Keyser Söze]

I have a recentLY completed game with Volxen (where he was scum) and a current ongoing game with him... so this is all very interesting.

(WATCH THIS SPACE)

[Keyser Söze]

Am I universally townread yet?

No.

Volxen town
Aster town
RC town
CJ town

Pinturichio probtown

Gamma ? maybe like 1-2 % points more likely town
Firebringer ?

Who is left

No lean on me?

[Keyser Söze]

I really think your play should be less awful if you're town Keyser

That said I'm not sure if you're scum bad or just off your game from being gone so long

My game has changed since our last game.

"scum bad"?

That's maybe my new adopted town meta.

[Keyser Söze]

Meme men, blackjack, keyser, springtrap, clemency, gamma should contain at least 3 scum

I think we sort blackjack and springtrap today.

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: blackjack

[Keyser Söze]

Where does the mockery begin and the seriousness end
Though on a serious note, are you really having a meta change Keyser? I don't really meta you anyways but that would be interesting.

I think mafiascum killed me two years ago. Came back this year (after some off-site mafia therapy) beginning to realise how to start enjoying the game.

[Keyser Söze]

Where does the mockery begin and the seriousness end
Though on a serious note, are you really having a meta change Keyser? I don't really meta you anyways but that would be interesting.

I think mafiascum killed me two years ago. Came back this year (after some off-site mafia therapy) beginning to realise how to start enjoying the game.

I remember playing you in Hogwarts Mafia, you were the greatest townread and got n1ed.

My game was limited back then because I realised I was subconsciously more overly-concerned with being town-read then solving the game. Now I've released the shackles.
Enough of this masturbation though

[Keyser Söze]

RC, please get your vote down.

[Keyser Söze]

Reading Volxen’s posts from the last couple pages, they are different here compared to the (small but fresh) scum meta I know from them:-
What is key to note is the composure and confidence of Volxen shown here.
The question is if they have developed as a player (basically their town game or simply improved their scum game)

[Keyser Söze]

Can someone bulletpoint town-Volxen or scum-Volxen.

[Keyser Söze]

In terms of their recent meta

[Keyser Söze]

I think RC is likely right about BlackJacks. I've never played with Ruru, and my only experience with Orfhz is in another ongoing game, and yet both of them are convinced I'm scum because I don't have tons of posts in this game already. They even have referenced some of my previous town games, without even taking into account things such as that I do sometimes have gaps in my posts as both alignments, or that I often do better after day 1 when I have more information to work with via flips.

I don't feel like BlackJacks wants to sort my alignment, but rather it feels like both heads of the hydra just want to push a mislynch through.

Hi Volxen talk with me

I feel that BJ is hard pushing you without reconsidering it that much, yes. That point I can somewhat agree.

However the post they linked here from your town game sounded very differently than your posts here.

You didn't see engaged in sorting anyone alignment aside from posting things everyone had already said and approved, nor do you right now seem to focus on anything but avoiding your lynch or saying that BJ is scum.

Do you really think it's weird to scum read you here? I don't think it would be that hard for you to actually sound townier if you had some motivation.

What I'm saying is that the conclusion "Volxen hasn't made tons of posts = Volxen is scum" is overly simplistic, and I have a hard time believing that is coming from a townie who really wants to solve the game. For instance, you are at least trying to engage with me, whereas BlackJacks has multiple posts calling for my lynch.

Either he is scum, or he has some misguided preconceived notion of what town!Volxen looks like and thinks I'm scum because I'm not living up to that expectation. Considering he has never played with town!me in any of my completed town games, him posting as if he is some sort of expert on my town meta is fairly suspect.

I feel this is Volxen’s best post so far:
- does feel like they’ve taken a step back in their head and rationalized scum-BJ vs town-BJ
- I do empathise with Volxen’s ‘push my misslynch through’ mentality
- looking at different player’s approach on their slot (instead of being stuck in OMGUS against the one slot - it’s easier for scum to just stay tunnelled until their attacker backs down).
- under scrutiny by Nib but their reaction looks composed and defiant


This is a different Volxen to WatchersWanted scum-Volxen.

[Keyser Söze]

Aster requiring “quantifiable reasons” from RC demonstrates what two different players they are

@Aster have you played with RC before?

[Keyser Söze]

Chainsaw defense is when you defend a partner right? I don't agree with that then but it's a good and fair point, very close to what I believe

Does scum-RC hard defend town-Volxen for towncred? I don’t think so.

I had him as null with all the anti town shit he did, but that changed with volxen towning it up

I don’t understand how your personal read development of Volxen is related to RC’s nose-dive trajectory... Are you saying RC should be developing reads to the same pace and intensity as your own?

[Keyser Söze]

Guess I'll become a counterwagon and a decent lynch of I dont do something.

VOTE: Blackjacks

Interesting...

[Keyser Söze]

zzz

RC's case on me is more town than the keyser/volxen/springtrap votes, not that it makes him town or anything, but I pretty much expect him to want me out of the game, in any game, as either alignment, and my iso is objectively different from my town meta on my main so whatever.

Keyser can be read by postcount and he stopped postcounting here which is questionable, he's also voteparking us with a "sorting" vote while not really doing anything even though we've apparently developed into a Serious wagon
tbh nobody's really doing anything in this game us included so it's hard to get reads.

I think volxen is scum, ofrhz is starting to doubt it after his realtime posting spree but I don't know if we have any better shared reads than volxen

Springtrap is a token nullscum read but I don't know if he's too likely to be actual scum

I kinda townread clemency's utter lack of contribution, I think isos like volxen that are trying to look like they're playing the game are much more likely to flip scum

Idc mafia right now, I'm on this account because my last game wasn't fun even though I won and efforting is too stressful so if we're going to get lynched for not efforting just lynch us so we flip and we'll go play another game where people can meta us better assuming ofrhz doesn't disown me for trolling all game

BJ, this is probably your first self-reflective post.

Until then you have been in tunnel mode versus Volxen (like possessed by an agenda to push through Volxen’s lynch since the start).

I don’t think anyone has had any meaningful interactions with you.


What’s changed your vibe then? The Springtap vote?

[Keyser Söze]

Ceejay's ISO is very 'light'. I like where there votes have been, but I can't see the whys/hows of how he went from Springtrap to BJ

[Keyser Söze]

Welcome AnonymousGhost

[Keyser Söze]

man this game is gonna be fun

every time i try to write something meaningful my mind goes blank and i get a craving for chocolate

What happened to you?

[Keyser Söze]

i'm wrong on at least one {town/not scum} read and he's playing way differently than i'm used to seeing from him.

alternatively we could just lynch springtrap

Your meta on me needs updating

[Keyser Söze]

There is no need to lynch the ‘i-think-he’s-Town-here-but....-paranoia!!!’

Your vote is bad and you should know this

[Keyser Söze]

springtrap seems town

-r

Why town?

At best he is null.

[Keyser Söze]

I think RC is likely right about BlackJacks. I've never played with Ruru, and my only experience with Orfhz is in another ongoing game, and yet both of them are convinced I'm scum because I don't have tons of posts in this game already. They even have referenced some of my previous town games, without even taking into account things such as that I do sometimes have gaps in my posts as both alignments, or that I often do better after day 1 when I have more information to work with via flips.

I don't feel like BlackJacks wants to sort my alignment, but rather it feels like both heads of the hydra just want to push a mislynch through.

Hi Volxen talk with me

I feel that BJ is hard pushing you without reconsidering it that much, yes. That point I can somewhat agree.

However the post they linked here from your town game sounded very differently than your posts here.

You didn't see engaged in sorting anyone alignment aside from posting things everyone had already said and approved, nor do you right now seem to focus on anything but avoiding your lynch or saying that BJ is scum.

Do you really think it's weird to scum read you here? I don't think it would be that hard for you to actually sound townier if you had some motivation.

What I'm saying is that the conclusion "Volxen hasn't made tons of posts = Volxen is scum" is overly simplistic, and I have a hard time believing that is coming from a townie who really wants to solve the game. For instance, you are at least trying to engage with me, whereas BlackJacks has multiple posts calling for my lynch.

Either he is scum, or he has some misguided preconceived notion of what town!Volxen looks like and thinks I'm scum because I'm not living up to that expectation. Considering he has never played with town!me in any of my completed town games, him posting as if he is some sort of expert on my town meta is fairly suspect.

I feel this is Volxen’s best post so far:
- does feel like they’ve taken a step back in their head and rationalized scum-BJ vs town-BJ
- I do empathise with Volxen’s ‘push my misslynch through’ mentality
- looking at different player’s approach on their slot (instead of being stuck in OMGUS against the one slot - it’s easier for scum to just stay tunnelled until their attacker backs down).
- under scrutiny by Nib but their reaction looks composed and defiant


This is a different Volxen to WatchersWanted scum-Volxen.

I’m thinking I may need to revise on Volxen...
(Would not lynch him today though)

[Keyser Söze]

Will tackle this game late tonight or Friday night x

[Keyser Söze]

RE: Volxen, I have only one completed game with Volxen where Volx played like newb-scum.

I have also one ongoing game I can’t talk about.



What I can say is that Volx has ‘improved’ his game (he feels totally different here) but I can’t put a label on that yet (alignment indicative). He may have just improved his scum game. Just because I have one completed game with volx where he had like 15 posts doesn’t make me an expert on him.

I said I would need time to resolve him here... and shouldn’t be harassed for not having a better idea about him.

[Keyser Söze]

(I’ve been away on work all week and currently playing 3 games, hence why I’m not more present. I don’t think it has effected my ability to play, I still have contributed some good reads/thoughts)

[Keyser Söze]

And me not having strong reads right now is not scummy. It is a true reflection of me versus the game. It is a tough playerlist.


Take you for example, you were scumming up the game until wagonned and after your little meltdown with RC. And now you’re suddenly “towned”? I don’t buy it. You were probably caught scum, and knew you had to change your focus and now just sheeping RC who everyone knows can push through any wagon. Why can’t my vote be on you? “Voteparking” is a bullshit narrative. You didn’t engage me when I had my vote on you, only now when I’ve been offline for 48hours.

[Keyser Söze]

Why are you voting us, sir?

Because I’m not town reading you.

Me not having a concrete scum case on you on D1 is not surprising. All I have are suspicion and association theory (i.e springtaps naked vote you). I still didn’t get your push on Volxen. I think it was a silly way of getting yourself involved early in the game (I don’t know what this means for Volx’s alignment) but I think you fell flat on your face with it

[Keyser Söze]

Itt: keyser tries to convince his top scumread that he's town

This as well.

Narrative pushing instead of trying to read my posts.


Weldone. If you’re scum keep going, if you’re town that’s bad play.

[Keyser Söze]

@Keyser

- im bored

you're here

lets talk!

please explain the BJ/Spring association idea. thanks~

I’ll have to read back to the moment, but the timing of the vote felt like a belated bus vote to me (in the scum BJ-scum Spring perspective)

[Keyser Söze]

Votecount 1.15

AnonymousGhost (2):

Aster 297, Gamma Emerald 311

Firebringer (1):

Clemency 394

Springtrap (3):

Firebringer 442, pinturicchio 776, ceejayvinoya 927

Blackjacks (2):

Keyser Söze 635, Volxen 709

ceejayvinoya (1):

Nibbui 807

Aster (1):

AnonymousGhost 867

Keyser Söze (2):

RadiantCowbells 887, Blackjacks 893

Not voting (1):

Springtrap 820

With 13 alive, it’s 7 to lynch. The Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-12-09 14:42:59).

Judging by the VC you can tell that scum are in control right now.
I go for 48 hours and now I’m the ‘compromise’ lynch?

Now I need to find out who is leading who.



P.EDIT: Why isn’t Springtap voting?

[Keyser Söze]

Other slots where I feel like something’s not just right here:


Volx. I want to sort this slot ASAP, but I don’t think he’s today’s lynch. (When I asked for people’s recent meta with Volx I was being serious, so please share).

Since I ‘engaged’ with Gamma and townread him I feel like he’s taken a step off the gas (so he’s sliding back down the wrong side of null for me). Didn’t like his reaction to RC’s readslist either. Don’t know if I can put it into words why.

I feel Ceejay has played a tactically distant game and only engages when namedropped. If it smells of active lurking, tastes of active lurking, it probably is active lurking. He probably feels pretty safe too as I don’t think he’s been waggoned yet.

Springtap. I wouldn’t be surprised if he flips town or flips scum here. I think his naked vote and unvote (when pressured on it may be the key moment of the game though)


I don’t think I would vote anyone outside this PoE right now, but neither do I think I’ve solved the game.

(If I was a cop I would investigate FireBringer tonight)

[Keyser Söze]

you can?

i suck at VC

walk me through your conclusion

thanks

Looking back at the shifting of votes at the time:-



Ok, the two interesting wagons in the VC were:

Springtrap (2): Firebringer 442, Nibbui 470
Blackjacks (4): Keyser Söze 635, RadiantCowbells 666, Volxen 709, ceejayvinoya 710


Then Pint votes Springtap!
Now 3vs4.

BJ wagon is still the lead wagon here (this is where the momentum was).

Then Springtap votes BJ...
I feel like the Pint vote may have triggered something in Springtap (who has been closed guarded all game, he must have been feeling/thinking something but did not share it). This looks to me like a vote he ‘had’ to do (either the prime bus position, or survivalist vote ).

Springtap then gets lambasted for it from a few players. Swiftly unvotes:

“noticed I was being scummy, so now I'm being quiet and accepting that I'll have to be lynched before LyLo or MyLo but I'd rather not hurt town by being hung day 1.”

(Reeks of AtE)... then ends with a ‘ahhh BJ is town afterall’.

Yeah right.

[Keyser Söze]

Aster is articulate and cutting with her observations: she hasn’t held back, strutting like a ‘smug’ townie. I think her over confidence in her own sorting makes her shortsighted though: I.e her take on RC and Volxen. If she were to open up in real-time (where tone can be more easierly expressed); and one of her scum reads flips scum, I’ll probably move her up to Nib/RC tier of town.

I don’t think she’s ever the D1 lynch.

[Keyser Söze]

Firebringer observation was tonal paranoia on his entrance (it was a good point and still stands). I’d need more ‘meat’ than that to lynch him over you. What’s your read on him?

Wouldn’t say Aster has been ‘tunneling’ either, so that’s a misrep. Even though she has made a third of the posts of you I don’t think she has shown the narrow focus that you demonstrated as your push on Volxen.



Are you calling your play as a trolling now?

Feels like you’re just upset about my “voteparking” vote. Have you been caught for shit reasons?

[Keyser Söze]

I meant firebringer calling for votes on aster, his early d1 play was pretty similar to ours

I wouldn’t put your two pushes on the same level...

I felt Firebringer’s vote was awkward but only RVS (a joke: voting Aster for #1 town supremacy? ) it never escalated to the heights of your push (where you trying to pull off a ‘I KNOW VOLXEN IS SCUM LYNCH HIM’(Look at associations later ) overall I think you looked uncomfortable and didn’t know how to enter this game

[Keyser Söze]

Aster is articulate and cutting with her observations: she hasn’t held back, strutting like a ‘smug’ townie. I think her over confidence in her own sorting makes her shortsighted though: I.e her take on RC and Volxen. If she were to open up in real-time (where tone can be more easierly expressed); and one of her scum reads flips scum, I’ll probably move her up to Nib/RC tier of town.

I don’t think she’s ever the D1 lynch.

her current scum reads are myself - explicitly from Meme - and then Gamma who was listed as "potentially scummy" all the way back from page 16.

her current reads are basically a bunch of nulls are pretty much the entire player list:

'm still feeling neutral about Blackjacks aside from the part that I suspect scum may be pushing against them.

In post 867, AnonymousGhost wrote:
@Aster - so besides pointing out RC's chainsaw defense of Volxen in 751 and reaching an FoS on the both of them... did that post get you any closer to sorting out their alignments?

Besides that? No.

tis official 393 is whip cream. lots of words, but when you break it down into a single sentence... not much substance to it.

BlackJack
In post 393, Aster wrote:
Most unfortunately lurking isn't alignment indicative, which makes it hard for me to establish any proper read on them.


Gamma Emerald
In post 393, Aster wrote:
His active lurking while dancing around "my meta has changed" and calling it a town meta (323) does draw my attention as potentially scummy.


Keyzer
In post 393, Aster wrote:
So far Keyser Söze has given me no concrete reasons to think he's town nor reasons to believe he's scum. I'm writing him as "neutral".


Pint
In post 393, Aster wrote:
I am somewhat wary of pinturicchio because of this.


In a nutshell...

BlackJack = null
Gamma = potentially scummy
Keyzer = null

yeah maybe she does lack reads with more commitment: I feel like she should have a lean on either me or BJ by now. And posting 4 nullish reads is very / LAMISTY. I still think her case on RC and Volxen was ballsy though (in a against the grind way).

[Keyser Söze]

If I was a cop I would investigate FireBringer tonight)

I would t

I think you’ll be the hardest slot to sort: you’ve had this nice but nasty (passive aggressive?) tone permeating your interactions, I don’t know how to read it. I think it may be deflective/defensive.

AKA THE MASK

[Keyser Söze]

[Keyser Söze]

Maybe passive aggressive is the wrong term (just looked it up)

I don’t know - Your tone is interesting (I can’t put my finger on it right now, but think it’s ‘something’)

It’s as if I want you to snap out of whatever you’re doing and talk real. Is this normal town-firebringer?

[Keyser Söze]

Maybe passive aggressive is the wrong term (just looked it up)

I don’t know - Your tone is interesting (I can’t put my finger on it right now, but think it’s ‘something’)

It’s as if I want you to snap out of whatever you’re doing and talk real. Is this normal town-firebringer?

i am always talking real buddy.
i don't know normal town firebringer, id like to meet him one day.

you going to answer question about how i am being defensive/deflective?

No.

...but this very post is in my eyes.

If it’s your personality then ok.

[Keyser Söze]

I think I can do either Fire, Keyser, Ceejay or Spring today

Mainly Ceejay to be honest, and if no one wants Ceejay that has been kinda sly, I can go to Spring.

Keyser or Fire would be a compromisse if no one posts a good case for they, because even if we try to lynch them, if they flip town, we'll not only have mislynched but will have kept alive unreadable or lurking slots.

VOTE: Spring

If someone changes vote to Ceejay I can go over there.

Honestly though? I don't think Spring is flipping scum here at all.

I think we lynch Spring today then.

I think scum are on this wagon regardless of Spring’s alignment.

Who would I want alive at LYLO:- BJ, Springtap or Gamma? Probably Springtap last.

VOTE: Springtap

[Keyser Söze]

I did not know that was the hammer.

But it's probably what I wanted anyway.

[Keyser Söze]

I think that town flip weakens my s/read on BJ

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Keyser soze

this is scum

Nope just town with bad reads.

[Keyser Söze]

Catching up today people.

[Keyser Söze]

Going to re-read all my null/scum, null/town reads, starting with Clemency:

I feel like Clem has always played by his rules and pace. His ISO is full of: early blatant attempt to extend RVS, fluff posting, signs of being very conscious of his playstyle, lots of talking about himself and what he thinks about the gamestate, self-deprecating feels...

This is the quintessential Clem post:

i'm seriously concerned with the amount of lurk y'all are letting me get away with

It is pretty evident he doesn’t mind the focus being on himself.

It even took him til his 67th post to share his first articulated reads on Nibs, Aster and Volx

okay holy shit nvm you're all way too high intensity for me
i can't even bring myself to read all this

Clem keeps getting overwhelmed by gamestate atmosphere/player moods - has anyone played with Clem before? Is this alignment indicative?

Taking a step back from his ISO as a whole, his tone feels like a low WIM/low motivated townie, but I need to see Clem pro-actively sort the playerlist to deserve a more tangible town read. I feel like he’s a passenger. His thread energy fluctuates from excited puppy to pessimist. I think he needs to play more serious as he’s proving a difficult player to sort.


Ceejay next.

[Keyser Söze]

So basically...you

resorted

your

null read

to be...
...Nulltown?

Yes.

[Keyser Söze]

So basically...you

resorted

your

null read

to be...
...Nulltown?

Yes.

As you will find out this playerlist is tough and not very giving. You try your hardest to dig on a slot, but they follow a cycle of being guarded and awkward-EMOTION!-close off.

[Keyser Söze]

Ceejay only has 30 posts which I was surprised about.

Ceejay was quite quick to oppose the early wagons on Gamma, Meme and BJ. I think we may need to look at this later in terms of associations / potential TMI.

I do like the fact CJ only gave Nib a null read, as it would have been easy to give a sheepish t/read on Nib, whose tone was pretty towny from the offset IMO. The fact CJ played with scum/Nib kind of complements this too.

CJ, after getting called out for being a periphery figure, ended D1 with a disengaged tone and promptly disappeared from the thread. I can remember on D1 liking where his votes were (BJ, Springtap) but retrospectively looking back now, I don’t really have a feel of why he was there.

Similar to Clem, I need to see that drive from CJ to aggressively solve this game. I don’t think he is a slot you can hard scum read or hard town read. I don’t like the fact his disengagement coincided with players pressing him. I thought that should have put abit of fire in his belly instead.

[Keyser Söze]

Oh my god you people

What’s the point sorting through your null reads if they’re all still null

Please talk about my reads, don’t undermine them.
Are these players nullish to you?

Thanks

[Keyser Söze]

BJ re-read:

If I scutinize my scum read of BJ it was influenced alot by my scum team feels for BJ-Springtap (or more the connections I was making via Springtaps posts).

Looking at BJ in isolation he does admittedly look ‘better’.

Firstly, I’m always going to have problems with his awkward entrance and early OTT scum read of Volx, but BJ does build that scum read into a fleshed out case later in D1, which feels more real second time reading.

I’m a sucker for emotion and post 795 does stink of disgruntled townie.

WIFOM FUEL: the fact BJ keeps calling the SpringTap wagon as a boring lynch / a lynch on low hanging fruit, but still being part of the eventual Spring wagon works in his favour, as scum-BJ ends D1 with zero towncred.

I lack actual reads, whatever

VOTE: lolwagons

I think this was the best entrance into D2 too.

I think BJ opens D2 in the fresh green pastures of town.

[Keyser Söze]

YOU THINK LACKING READS ON DAY TWO IS A TOWNTELL ARE YOU FUCKING WITH ME

Please dont overreact.

I didn’t say it was a rule for EVERY player. I was talking about my read on BJ.

Look at BJ’s strong pushes on D1, and his subsequent loss of faith in his reads.

[Keyser Söze]

Well shit I take it back

I take it ALL BACK

I don’t have any reads now! I don’t want to play! Am I town now?

Congrats LolWagons for improving the mood.

What you are doing is anti town / scummy

[Keyser Söze]

Oh my god you people

What’s the point sorting through your null reads if they’re all still null

Please talk about my reads, don’t undermine them.
Are these players nullish to you?

Thanks

Not saying your reads are bad saying you told us you were going to sort through them which I think understandably gave us the expectation they’d be something other than null. In a game starved of content that’d be a welcome addition.

Ceejay lurked as town but was on all the right wagons and he wound up being town. He was, qualitatively, more engaged last game I played with him as town. I don’t think his play here is as engaged so I have him tilt scum.

Clemency is playing how I figured he would. He’s a tough read but if there was a gun to my head I’d say town.

@lolwagons - discussion of players that I wanted to sort led to this post by you so STFU

[Keyser Söze]

Reacting strongly to crazy reads is scummy but throwing up your arms and going “damn lol I pushed d1 now I’m just so darn tiyarrrrrrrd” is a fresh-fucking-green pasture towntell

OkAy

I read tone, that’s my thing. Believable shifts in WIM is very indicative IMO.

[Keyser Söze]

Reacting strongly to crazy reads is scummy but throwing up your arms and going “damn lol I pushed d1 now I’m just so darn tiyarrrrrrrd” is a fresh-fucking-green pasture towntell

OkAy

I read tone, that’s my thing. Believable shifts in WIM is very indicative IMO.

You don’t think that kind of thing is easily fakable by scum? If it worked for you in the past more power to you but I can’t wrap my mind around less transparency and activity being a towntell.

MAYBE a PR tell but there aren’t any in this game so

Also I’m not even disagreeing with your read, I just think out of all the things to pull to support it that came off as super contrived

“Fakeable”? Probably not for BJ’s D1 trajectories.

If BJ had tiptoed softly yesterday making no ripples, then yes, resetting to ‘GOT NO READS’ on D2 may have been more easier to fake.

Plus, you didn’t have the first hand advantage of posting in real time yesterday with BJ.

[Keyser Söze]

It’s just gone 2:10am here, will look at Gamma and Firebringer slot tomorrow.

[Keyser Söze]

Gonna go through Mastinas and RC’s cases

[Keyser Söze]

I’m back...


Welcome TTTT

[Keyser Söze]

Spoiler: LolWagon’s ‘behaviour case’ on Gamma wonderfully encapsulates my D1 suspicion of Gamma’s over-concern with their ‘appearance’:

I'm leaving out anything before Official start which is #94. GE Iso (Things in Parentheses could be debatable as to which category they fit best in) :

RQS: 99, 120, 303
Self-Defense: 104, 120, 123, 143, 212, 227, 323, 463, 593, 597, 605, 610, 946, 953, (1012), (1015), (1016), (1024), (1026), 1029,
Opinions w/out Substance: 106, (127), 148, 588, 712, 1097
Reads with Substance: 166, (311), 313
Non-Defensive Interaction with Others: 123, 129, (147), 158, 207, 240, 334, 464, [549, 564, 571, 573, 575, 581], 585, 632, 713, 781, 888, 891, 911, 913, 1003, 1010, 1046, 1062
Tangentially Game-Related or Filler: 124, 125, 126, 179, 213, 225, 267, 349, 466, 548, 638, 641, 749, 810, 910, 955, 957, 1032, 1044, 1048

Can't Tell?: 250, 613

What the fuck is 578 I can't decipher it.

You can go through these 1 by 1 if you wish but GE looks a lot like a player who is trying to look busy and look like he is having an impact without ever really throwing the hat in the ring. The breakdown in posting is:

33% Tangents/Fluff/Unexplained Reads
26% Self-Defense (I define this as not necessarily being defensive, but being overly concerned with the posturing of your slot with the town or subtly trying to posture)
4% RQS

So we are at about two-thirds mostly meaningless interaction in terms of driving the game forward. I want to note that everyone is allowed to defend themselves, but if you look at his ISO, he seems overly concerned about posturing and everyone's read on him.

The other 37% is reads with rationale and Non-Defensive Interaction With Others (But the vast majority of this -90% or so-is the latter).

Even within those posts (I highly recommend everyone read them, I basically distilled this ISO for you) there isn't a lot of meaningful interaction going on. the only parts of the ISO I really felt like were sincere attempts to drive conversation were the section in brackets, but I'm not as confident as I was that was town when I look through the rest of the ISO. I also find it odd that in one point of the game there was this groundswell of thought that Gamma was being useful and it seemed a bit ubiquitous for a while. Retroactively I don't see that.


Anyway, VOTE: GammaEmerald

This is a good way to go.

This post sends shivers down my spine (in the lining up lynches way) is this an opportunistic vote disguised as a sheep vote? Is it a bus disguised as a sheep? :

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Mastina if you're wrong with this, my vote tomorrow will be parked on you. You are misreping the whole blackjack situation so if Gamma is town, I'm expecting you going for me tomorrow instead of the other players you have named and your scumread on me is poor, very poor. Your whole premise is how some players are related to Gamma

[Keyser Söze]

Let me catchup the last 5 pages.

[Keyser Söze]

VOTE: Gamma

[Keyser Söze]

Gamma Emerald was lynched. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

mastina,

Vanilla Townie

, was endgamed
Blackjacks,

Vanilla Townie

, were endgamed.
AnonymousGhost,

Vanilla Townie

, was endgamed.
TTTT,

Vanilla Townie

, was endgamed.


The

Mafia

team of Clemency, Aster, RadiantCowbells and Keyser Söze have won!

The thread is now unlocked for post-game discussion. Private threads to follow.

Wellplayed scumteam! Win always feels richer when you didn’t have to resort to bussing.

Thank you NSG for modding x