Mini Normal 2045: Boba Tea Mafia [Game Over]

[LolWagons]

Hey people. Reading the thread now.

Disclaimer: This is an alt. My main username is Slaxx but I can't access that account because I haven't played in 4 years. So if any of you guys like Meta, go for it.

[LolWagons]

Doughboy

Post 112 Lmfao slight town vibe here. The bluntness reads town.

Not linking all the posts but the back-and-forth between trivium and Doughboy makes doughboy look town.

Springtrap

29 and 145 is a nice consistent thought process here. As I was reading and saw the wagon forming on this slot I was wondering if he would hop on or not.

PenguinPower

Post 119reads slight town. As I was building up the confidence to join another game I read through a past game with him in it and he did this as town, if I recall. Lab Rat Mafia I think?
Lol. Slight town read on that post. Scum don't screw around playfully as much as town do with stuff like that, from my past experience

Egix96

Post 60: Don't really like this, looks a lot like "how can I look town to you?"
Post 80: I'm a little suspicious as to why there wasn't an L-2 vote here? Looks like scum afraid to draw attention to themselves.
Post 148 Doesn't sit quite right with me. Looks like setting a possible towny up after they flip.

profii

Post 19 I like the early aggression here. Nice attempt to leave RVS quicker.
Post 36 drips town. Driving the conversation in a Socratic manner. Same with Post 37
Kind of parks a vote on the lurk slot after that, but he was also V-LA. I am eagerly awaiting his catch up post.

Sad Sheep

Rough start that goes completely ass-up after Post 131. I'm not linking each individual post because this url forest is already a nightmare, but:
146 is only addressing the lurker in my slot
147 is setup spec
224 is, somehow, game talk AND addressing my slot, exclusively
225 is more game talk

Yeah, that's not a really good look. Someone is trying to look busy without contributing.

Malakitty

This slot needs to post more. Christ.

BrightEyedFish

Post 81 and Post 82 : That felt really unnatural. Also, the lack of a different vote for pressure is telling. He the continues to talk about unrelated game issues, which is more effort than he has put into scumhunting the entire game.
Post 72 Asks Elbirn a question and... in Post 131 Elbirn

literally quotes

him but doesn't ever answer. As far as I can tell,

no follow-up from either

. This is going to look really bad for Elbirn if BEF flips scum, as it looks like they are not concerned about ascertaining answers as much as they are looking busy. Not as confident on Elbirn, but this seals a BEF vote for me.
Post 120 and 122 seems to be only focusing on the flaking slot.

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

Post 176: Dammit I thought I was onto a Elgin/BEF connection (especially with Elgin voting DD, who is voting BEF) but I really,

really

don't think they'd be this obvious.

Trivium

So, here's the deal with Trivium. He's the type of player who's flip is going to tell you a lot. Holding off on my full read on him for a day or so.

@ Trivium:

Re:220, how do you reconcile your parked vote on my slot and BEF's opportunism? Do you think they're both scum?

DrDolittle

Post 48 and Post 49 and Post 50: If DrDolittle flips scum, Egix probably isn't his partner. Just a note for later in the game with more flips. Current wagon at that time:

ceejayvinoya (3) - BrightEyedFish, Egix96, Sad Sheep
BrightEyedFish (3) - ceejayvinoya, Doughboy, Elbirn
profii (3) - Springtrap, DrDolittle, TexdoesHalo

No way he mentions and votes him with two other viable wagons he isn't on.
Post 71:
I really like DD's ISO. It is full of succinct, direct communication with others. Not a whole lot of filler.

Elbirn

Post 67 Lol well if Elbirn flips scum Ceejay is probably town. Although I like the blunt and direct vote corralling here. It usually reads town when its early, directed at someone specific, and no one else is under serious fire where it could be mistook as covering. It also makes me feel better about Elbrin because up until now in the read I felt like he was driving discussion but was hit or miss on a tangible, goal-driven objective.
Makesme feel marginally better about the Elbirn/BEF interaction (at least on his end) mentioned above. At least there is followup here.

ceejayvinoya

Not a huge fan of this slot but nothing rubs me the wrong way, and I like the early BEF vote. Out of all the people what were parked on my slot him and Elbirn seemed to actually try to engage it (less opportunistic) the most, so they get a pass for now.

[LolWagons]

Hey people. Reading the thread now.

Disclaimer: This is an alt. My main username is Slaxx but I can't access that account because I haven't played in 4 years. So if any of you guys like Meta, go for it.

Hi lolwagons! Are you scum?

Are you here to play or ask stupid questions?

Summary from my last post:
Fairly Town: Doughboy
Lean Town: Doolittle, SpringTrap, PenguinPower
Neutral: Elbrin (Maybe a touch town), Ceejay
Lean Scum: Egix, Sad Sheep
Head in Noose: BrightEyedFish
Post More: Profii, MalaKitty
Not Showing My Hand on: Trivium

[LolWagons]

I'm not really in the mood to play today but I've been lurkylurky

Happy to see theres actual conversation, I'm proud of all of you, for a little while there I of all people had the highest post count and that is always a reason for ~*worry*~

Lolwagons can be town today, even if hes trying to tie me and BEF together based on my not answering what was clearly a rhetorical question

Idk what I think about Trivium

Okay bye thats all today ily all

I didn't read it as rhetorical, particularly because at the time BEF had his vote on CeeJay.

[LolWagons]

BEF, my point was that he quoted your post and you didn’t think to push him again for the answer. Because I don’t believe you were all that interested in it. Stop misrepresenting my argument.

[LolWagons]

Also, I was quite clear on my reads. Elgin and ceejay both focused on the slot but the manner in which they approached it was much more directed at sussing out noob vs scum motives. You and Sheep however focused more on the absence itself and didn’t focus much on the rest of the game You were focused almost exclusively on that slot, and only voted Trivium after someone else express interest in a vote on him.

[LolWagons]

BEF, my point was that he quoted your post and you didn’t think to push him again for the answer. Because I don’t believe you were all that interested in it. Stop misrepresenting my argument.

I wasn't interested in his answer.

Exactly.

[LolWagons]

Ruby what’s your Egix townread based off of?

[LolWagons]

BEF. Because he’s mafia.

Where are you getting spring scum?

And malakitty is lucky as hell. That slot will replace out with someone hopefully more active.

[LolWagons]

Lurky* as hell

Don’t usually scumhunt on mobile but here we are

[LolWagons]

I actually didn’t catch that lack of vote change from Springtrap. I’ll reread again when I’m home.

I’m well aware that replacements don’t change alignment lol. I think the “hm” is probably null but I can bite onto the setup spec in lieu of scumhunting.

[LolWagons]

Well I guess technically it’s speculation on setup speculation but you’re right it does seem to be feigning activity and avoidant of actual conflict.

[LolWagons]

To be fair, the only way to “gain information” from a lynch is to let a wagon form. So shutting down a wagon is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Not really a scum or town thing, just something to think about.

[LolWagons]

I’m not seriously proposing a PL on Mala

Egix was giving me a weird vibe that he just does not want mala lynched so I was testing that out

There are better lynches

okay this makes me feel better

while i was away from the thread i realized that you proposing a policy lynch like that rather than just an actual lynch was actually some massive TMI

i was really prepared to come back swinging

Lols well you’re town

Yuuuuup. Feeling good on that read.

So the two people who focused most of their attention on the lurker are still parking their votes on the slot. Awesome, noted. I doubt both Sheep and BEF are scum though. One is just low-effort.

[LolWagons]

Also, I was quite clear on my reads. Elgin and ceejay both focused on the slot but the manner in which they approached it was much more directed at sussing out noob vs scum motives. You and Sheep however focused more on the absence itself and didn’t focus much on the rest of the game You were focused almost exclusively on that slot, and only voted Trivium after someone else express interest in a vote on him.

I was focused on that slot because it was the top wagon. His absence is what kept me from jumping back on his wagon besides there was nothing in his ISO that was a scumtell to me. Now you are the one who should stop misrepresenting my posts.

So if I have understood you correctly, you believe sheeping is scummy... No one is allowed to vote anyone unless they come up with there own reasons?

Sometimes I like other's reasoning better than my own, and I sheep along, I don't need to make up an excuse if I think someone else has said it best.

There are flailing misrepresentations of an argument from caught scum. I clearly stated here that the combination of

1) Focusing solely on the popular lynch
2) Focusing on the absence rather than the content of the lynch
3) Not engaging with the target directly

is what made you scummy. NOT sheeping.

Also in that same post, he admitted to blindly wagoning somebody before having a scumread on them. Which is fine if you're fishing for reactions, but he obviously wasn't, as he took the vote right back off. There's no consistency at all in the logic of that vote and removal of that vote.

[LolWagons]

Not as fond as I was, but he would be a heavy compromise for me (4th choice maybe). Pretty confident in this BEF read. Starting to doubt my Egix scum read some. Sheep I honestly don't know if it is a gimmick or what, but not a big fan there either. Your mala logic I get, but the researcher in me cringes at the small sample size in posts. Still, not a terrible lynch.

Really think You/Profii/Doughboy are probably town. Doolittle leans that way. Definitely not compromising on anyone out of that pool, and I think Trivium, Ceejay, and Elgirn are worth keeping around as well.

[LolWagons]

We are going to have to start congregating around a lynch soon, as we have three days and will want time for a claim.

[LolWagons]

I'm just going to put this out there, granted this happened almost 9 years ago, but I looked a little into lol's meta as slaxx and here is an interesting post I found.
Note the linked post is a game where lol (slaxx) subbed into a scum slot and his opening post is very similar to his opening post in this game with a full reads list.

viewtopic.php?p=2057883#p2057883

First of all, I do that as town, and you can easily look back at the "Mafia in Space!" game I replaced in on this alt much more recently to confirm that. Not only did I give my complete reads list (no omissions), but my first vote was on the SK that won the game. I was the N1 kill.

I have a really freaking hard time believing you tried to honestly meta me and somehow missed a recent game 5 years ago but dug up my literal second or third game on the site 9 years ago.

The quote:

Spoiler: "PbP, If you care"


Town: SK, CTD, Ffer
Leaning Town: Gar, Plum
Lurkers/Null: CDB, Empire, NS, YYR
Leaning Scum: Kaze, Brian
Scum: Spyrex

Vote: Spyrex

First of all, this was also day 1, with zero flips.

Within the spoiler is the same post by post analysis I did when replacing in to this game. And you're right, I do this as scum too. So its NAI. But the fact you didn't even bother to try to falsify that opinion and decided to post it anyway? You're obviously looking specifically for things to push my wagon forward and not particularly interested on whether they are valid or not. You're either dealing with a huge confirmation bias issue, or you're scum. And I'm still confident you flip Red.

And in terms of my inactivity, I have not even been gone two days. I have not even needed to be prodded. I know you are really leaning on that as the crutch of my case but give it up. I'd probably guess half the player list has been gone for more than 38 hours at some point in the game.

[LolWagons]

But that's a little bit like if you went into one of my previous games and went "aha! Elbirn only plays inebriated when hes rolled scum, let's get em boys!", without verifying that I've done it in other scum games and not done it in town games. It's essentially a useless tidbit that's used to mislead.

If you really think that it could be a hint as to lol's alignment then you should be using that as a starting point and looking for something fishy in lol's reads post, instead of doubling down on "it's just meta".

I get your point and I did go over his ISO and what stands out is his attacks on me and I've already commented on those. I'm not even a fan of meta but I just looked for something that stood out.

He seems to be purely focused on me and by saying I'm misrepresenting his posts while in fact he is misrepresenting mine.

I guess he knows how to push my buttons but I'm done with him.

Which is it? Am I purely focused on you or am I too confident in too many reads?

[LolWagons]

This profii/doughboy thing reads like town vs town and they just hate each other from another game.

[LolWagons]

Dr do little and doughboy come in and shade me then both vote Trivium

Looks like they are trying to start a counter wagon to me

What would be gained from starting a counter wagon to you? I'm really not sure what you're trying to imply, if you're town then there cant really be a nefarious agenda to forming a counter wagon, scum would just let your mislynch happen.

Questions town asks. Elgin reads more townie as this progresses.

[LolWagons]

Dr do little and doughboy come in and shade me then both vote Trivium

Looks like they are trying to start a counter wagon to me

What would be gained from starting a counter wagon to you? I'm really not sure what you're trying to imply, if you're town then there cant really be a nefarious agenda to forming a counter wagon, scum would just let your mislynch happen.

Questions town asks. Elgin reads more townie as this progresses.

[LolWagons]

That's not trying to find scum. It's contradictory in a scummy way

That's a I'm going to sheep my town read for a wagon but I'm sleeping with reservations.

With like three days before deadline? Your best move is to sheep a town read?

Okay...

[LolWagons]

That's not trying to find scum. It's contradictory in a scummy way

That's a I'm going to sheep my town read for a wagon but I'm sleeping with reservations.

No, that's a I'm going to sheep a town wagon and have reservations so when he flips I can say I didn't mean it

Everyone and their moms can make a push on BEF. You making a slight jab there does not make you scum hunting

Why can everyone and their moms make a push on bef? Could it be because he's acting scummy?

Shit town says: Episode 2.

[LolWagons]

It should be super telling that people refuted BEF's "logic" about meta before I even got here to defend myself, he fucking walked it back but stuck on my slot, he is lurker hunting me but not concerned about more absent people, and he's pretty much universally acknowledged as an easy target to push on, and

we still are having trouble getting votes on him.

[LolWagons]

Sometimes a cigar is a cigar, and sometimes someone who is obviously scummy flips red.

If DD's logic was consistent, he would be harping on BEF for tunneling on inactive players, as they are super low-hanging fruit. So yeah, maybe you're right Trivium.

[LolWagons]

This profii/doughboy thing reads like town vs town and they just hate each other from another game.

That’s not true. At least not from me. I only hate like 3/4 people on this site and he’s not one of them. I’m just familiar with his play and his play this game is completely different imo.

What read did you have on him day 1 in that game?

[LolWagons]

he's pretty much universally acknowledged as an easy target to push on, and

we still are having trouble getting votes on him.

Could say the same about DDL, theres a lot of vocalized support in the direction of ddl being scum, or bef and ddl being scum together, but no votes are materializing on DDL.

I gave up because I'm fine compromising on BEF, but the inability to get a wagon there is like....why?

The whole sheeping a townread a few days before deadline isn't a good look.

[LolWagons]

Malakitty, Ruby Red, and Springtrap need to commit to a wagon or really start pushing a quick case on someone.

[LolWagons]

The move on and off of Tex is just something I can't look past.

That would make Tex the planned mislynch and BEF doesn't want to be caught on wagon. That being said, Trivium is hard pushing Tex but I think it was 196 which looked like someone finding genuine reasons rather than fabricating an excuse to vote so TR there too.

Now I understand why. This is weak sauce.

You might want to reread the last few pages.

[LolWagons]

DDL,

What happened between here:

thinking about putting the inaugural vote on bef

Here:

thinking about putting the inaugural vote on bef

Can you talk about why and/or actually vote for him?

cause bef gets voted day 1 and his posts are strange and therefore seems scummy (c.f. the whole vote unvote business rn)
but i think he might be town today.

and here:

BEF looks town. Ruby Red/PP looks town. I'm uncertain on Lolwagons - and I agree with BEF that "245 might not be fluffy/agendary but it does come across as calculated."

Don't feel good about profii still by page 12

To go from leaning into voting to leaning in to town? Because I feel like BEF has been playing the same type of game since my slot started lurking.

[LolWagons]

It should be super telling that people refuted BEF's "logic" about meta before I even got here to defend myself, he fucking walked it back but stuck on my slot, he is lurker hunting me but not concerned about more absent people, and he's pretty much universally acknowledged as an easy target to push on, and

we still are having trouble getting votes on him.

I played a game recently where quick lynch happens on scum and super difficult obviously scummy person was near impossible so maybe in the olden days this was reliable. It’s not anymore. Besides bef isn’t that scummy. Obviously since I can’t even get a read on him and it took the person most vocal about lynching him to refuse to provide a case that determine he’s town.

Exception, not rule.

By definition, all things being equal, it will always be harder to lynch scum. If you have two equally scummy players, one town, and one scum, you are going to have a hard time lynching scum, because all 11 other people (which excludes you and the target in this case) will be playing towards their win condition when that player is town, provided town truly thinks they are scum. Whereas only 9 or 10 will when they are mafia. That seems like a small difference but with 6 other than yourself needed to lynch, those margins matter. I'm not saying scum can't bus, but obviously mafia wants to lynch mafia more than town. They literally have to.

[LolWagons]

Town wants to lynch mafia more than town*

[LolWagons]

he's pretty much universally acknowledged as an easy target to push on, and we still are having trouble getting votes on him.

this is so so pertinent to what is happening right now

Yes. Its not exclusively this, but it supports a broader cluster of evidence.

[LolWagons]

It should be super telling that people refuted BEF's "logic" about meta before I even got here to defend myself, he fucking walked it back but stuck on my slot, he is lurker hunting me but not concerned about more absent people, and he's pretty much universally acknowledged as an easy target to push on, and

we still are having trouble getting votes on him.

I played a game recently where quick lynch happens on scum and super difficult obviously scummy person was near impossible so maybe in the olden days this was reliable. It’s not anymore. Besides bef isn’t that scummy. Obviously since I can’t even get a read on him and it took the person most vocal about lynching him to refuse to provide a case that determine he’s town.

There was a case provided, you just don't agree with the logic.

[LolWagons]

Doughboy

and to try and be as succinct as possible regarding BEF.

his ISO features a lot of talk about the Tex/Lol slot, the indecision over voting there appears like someone who has TMI - wants to be voting there, but knows it will be a mislynch so needs to find an 'excuse' to be on the wagon if the flip actually happens - up until very near the end of the ISO, there is very little else about other slots, which IME is something i have caught scum doing - they tend to just pick on a player they think they can get a mislynch on, rather than assessing the entire town as a whole and saying "I like X Y & Z because... and I dont like A B and C because...."

[LolWagons]

I'm just going to put this out there, granted this happened almost 9 years ago, but I looked a little into lol's meta as slaxx and here is an interesting post I found.
Note the linked post is a game where lol (slaxx) subbed into a scum slot and his opening post is very similar to his opening post in this game with a full reads list.

viewtopic.php?p=2057883#p2057883

First of all, I do that as town, and you can easily look back at the "Mafia in Space!" game I replaced in on this alt much more recently to confirm that. Not only did I give my complete reads list (no omissions), but my first vote was on the SK that won the game. I was the N1 kill.

I have a really freaking hard time believing you tried to honestly meta me and somehow missed a recent game 5 years ago but dug up my literal second or third game on the site 9 years ago.

The quote:

Spoiler: "PbP, If you care"


Town: SK, CTD, Ffer
Leaning Town: Gar, Plum
Lurkers/Null: CDB, Empire, NS, YYR
Leaning Scum: Kaze, Brian
Scum: Spyrex

Vote: Spyrex

First of all, this was also day 1, with zero flips.

Within the spoiler is the same post by post analysis I did when replacing in to this game. And you're right, I do this as scum too. So its NAI. But the fact you didn't even bother to try to falsify that opinion and decided to post it anyway? You're obviously looking specifically for things to push my wagon forward and not particularly interested on whether they are valid or not. You're either dealing with a huge confirmation bias issue, or you're scum. And I'm still confident you flip Red.

And in terms of my inactivity, I have not even been gone two days. I have not even needed to be prodded. I know you are really leaning on that as the crutch of my case but give it up. I'd probably guess half the player list has been gone for more than 38 hours at some point in the game.

By the way, I got my games confused. The game I was referring to here is "Mini 1501: We're On A Boat! "

[LolWagons]

Okay so what am I missing between BEF, Eli and profi

Whatever it is I’m trying to skim and I’m lost. At first it looked like a meta read and now I’m not sure

Do you mean what are the cases on them or are you referring to specific interactions between them?

We are down to a bit over a day, you're going to have to start making up your mind soon.

[LolWagons]

This profii/doughboy thing reads like town vs town and they just hate each other from another game.

That’s not true. At least not from me. I only hate like 3/4 people on this site and he’s not one of them. I’m just familiar with his play and his play this game is completely different imo.

What read did you have on him day 1 in that game?

Doughboy can you answer this

[LolWagons]

I think BEF is scum
I think Doughboy is liable to tunneling and may be scum or may be just getting swept up in his scum read on me and scum are using that to their advantage.
if BEF flips scum DDL is highly likely to be scum as well - it would not surprise me.
Elbirn is entering the mix in a weird way so I'm watching carefully

I've struck a nerve in there somewhere -there will be scum in that pool for sure

I can agree with this for the most part.

If you agree with this Egix, time to put BEF at that sweet sweet L-1

[LolWagons]

Dammit, Triv. A DB wagon isn't going to happen in 24 hours, we will be lucky to get any lynch.

[LolWagons]

Dammit, Triv. A DB wagon isn't going to happen in 24 hours, we will be lucky to get any lynch.

I don't want to play this game with doughboy. I'm not going to leave or anything, but I'm voting him

Its. Not. Happening.

[LolWagons]

We better get a flip today. I swear to god with the amount of shitposters and lurkers in this game we cannot afford to squander opportunities for information.

[LolWagons]

Dammit, Triv. A DB wagon isn't going to happen in 24 hours, we will be lucky to get any lynch.

I don't want to play this game with doughboy. I'm not going to leave or anything, but I'm voting him

Besides I'm starting to believe he really is scum. Tunneling one person all day is a great defense to hide behind, especially because I know I'm town. I don't think I've done anything scummy, and if you notice, he hasn't really justified himself in any way that would satisfy his own conditions of "evidence", he ignores anything substantial that goes against his reads, like completely ignore it. I implore you to take another read through this game and focus on doughboy.

He has put pressure on Profii and you. By your own logic you should be voting BEF because he has tunneled on my slot, except for his one opportunistic vote on you.

And his wagon actually has a chance of leading to a lynch.

[LolWagons]

I'm sorry, I have only drank diet coke so far today. Is there something in the water making everyone fucking mad?

[LolWagons]

Dammit, Triv. A DB wagon isn't going to happen in 24 hours, we will be lucky to get any lynch.

I don't want to play this game with doughboy. I'm not going to leave or anything, but I'm voting him

Besides I'm starting to believe he really is scum. Tunneling one person all day is a great defense to hide behind, especially because I know I'm town. I don't think I've done anything scummy, and if you notice, he hasn't really justified himself in any way that would satisfy his own conditions of "evidence", he ignores anything substantial that goes against his reads, like completely ignore it. I implore you to take another read through this game and focus on doughboy.

He has put pressure on Profii and you. By your own logic you should be voting BEF because he has tunneled on my slot, except for his one opportunistic vote on you.

And his wagon actually has a chance of leading to a lynch.

Doughboy's wagon also has a chance to lead to a lynch, if you hop on. BEF hsa at least moved around. Doughboy has not. You think he's going to change stances day2? day3? He's already shown himself to be completely and entirely ignorant, nobody has pressured him for this, and I think the lack of pressure on him all day is due to him being scum. It's happening.

Fuck it, hand me the koolaid.

VOTE: Doughboy

I am going to be watching this thread like a fucking hawk. But if we want to do pre-lynch hijinks whatever. I still want my BEF lynch.

If no traction comes of this, which it won't, both yall better be switching back to BEF.

[LolWagons]

VOTE: Vote Bright Eyed Fish

NOPE Egix has spoken. Both y'all better hop back onto the BEF wagon.

[LolWagons]

Did we seriously both reference drinking koolaid?

lmfao

[LolWagons]

CHOO CHOO MOTHERFUCKERS

[LolWagons]

Trivium put your vote back on BEF so he has the chance to claim.

Also, he's been gone 24 hours.

I gUeSs HiS sIlEnCe iS wOrRyIng

PEDIT: LETS GOOOO

[LolWagons]

Trivium put your vote back on BEF so he has the chance to claim.

Also, he's been gone 24 hours.

I gUeSs HiS sIlEnCe iS wOrRyIng

PEDIT: LETS GOOOO

no, no, it's

brighteyedfish's silence is starting to look bad...

Right, idk how I could have fucked it up considering its peppered throughout his ISO

[LolWagons]

Fucking hell.

1. Its 13
2. We can't confirm it. The way to confirm it would be to have him protect a possible NK or jail a possible mafia but we obviously can't discuss that, because obviously mafia would choose a different person to carry out the kill and a different target. If we decide to believe the claim then we have to trust him to make a good decision.

Did you breadcrumb at all BEF?

[LolWagons]

Fucking hell.

1. Its 13
2. We can't confirm it. The way to confirm it would be to have him protect a possible NK or jail a possible mafia but we obviously can't discuss that, because obviously mafia would choose a different person to carry out the kill and a different target. If we decide to believe the claim then we have to trust him to make a good decision.

Did you breadcrumb at all BEF?

Does anyone in their right mind think that this post comes from town?

See this is another reason why I SR lol.

Why the hell would that post come from scum? It's literally game mechanics talk.

[LolWagons]

I think that Dough is town, I also think LolWagons is town, and Triv might have derpcleared himself right there.
Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what do

The fact you caught that too, and the fact he did it, makes me think y'all might be both town.

[LolWagons]

BEF what about my last post made it seem like it was coming from scum?

[LolWagons]

BEF answer my damn question

What about that post reaffirmed your scumread on me?

[LolWagons]

BEF answer my damn question

What about that post reaffirmed your scumread on me?

Ask nicely.

Answer the question and stop avoiding it. You're not doing yourself any favors.

[LolWagons]

And I did ask nicely.

[LolWagons]

BEF answer my damn question

What about that post reaffirmed your scumread on me?

Ask nicely.

DoEs AnYoNe iN tHeIr RiGhT mInD ThInK tHis PoSt SeRiOuSlY cOmeS fRoM tOwN

[LolWagons]

BEF answer my damn question

What about that post reaffirmed your scumread on me?

What does it matter anyways?

But hey if you want to play obvtown by posting OBVIOUS game mechanics, be my guest. I see through that.

He asked, which I assume means he didn't know how it worked. So I answered. That's how conversations work.

[LolWagons]

If you're town you're a real prick.

That ask nicely shit really pissed me off. I'm trying to get you to answer stuff in the thread quickly so I can try to get a final read on your alignment and you're dicking around. I'm going to cool off and come back in an hour or two.

[LolWagons]

We can verify vig. New normal excludes SK right?

I’m out and about but I say back on BEF.

I’ll put my final case together on him in an hour or so.

[LolWagons]

No, the right play here is to leave him alive Profii. He can potentially be a verified clear. Scum has to have a roleblocker to obsfucate his claim. If they don’t he either soaks up a night kill or he’s verified tomorrow.

[LolWagons]

I really think BEF is the better lynch.

Sorry I know I promised a case in an hour but a client failed to tell me their dog was aggressive so life happened. I still am going to try to get a case out.

Here’s something to think about: Doolittle is still giving reads and engaging while BEF has slinked off to wherever. You know, BEF, the one who said silence was incriminating. And I can only judge so much as I literally just got pulled away from the game for my own reasons but his timing is pretty damn convenient. Pretty much right after the DDL wagon gained traction.

He’s still a good lynch. Mafia Jailkeeper makes a great counter to Vig and although that’s setup spec, I’m pretty comfortable with how this is all shaking out and anything past the “ask nicely” comment earlier is just icing on the cake. I really think he thought this slot would be an easy ML and is pissed I caught on.

[LolWagons]

Okay guys, sorry. Final thoughts.

It is redundant and possibly more dangerous to lynch outside the claims:

We risk outing another PR. And if we go after someone like springtrap or malakitty, we might night even get a claim due to their lack of activity. The more we switch the lynches the more we out PRs. Right now, we probably have only outted 1.

Setup spec-why it is better to lynch a claimed JK than vig:

The JK will never be verifiable. We can verify the vig. If BEF is the mafia jailkeeper like I think he might be now, we have the potential to shoot a lurker or someone who might look scummy if BEF flips. And with the JK out of the way, we would probably hit the target. I know we can WIFOM about the claims and what scum is more likely to claim, but at the end of the day we have a chance to verify with the Vig still alive, assuming they arent the nightkill.

BEF's late game play has been way more scummy than DDL's:

I don't see avoiding questions and then taunting the person who asks them as something town would do. Not only that, but I had to pull that answer out of him and it wasn't even good. There was no rebuttal to my answer. I know he is mislynch bait, I have checked his past games, but even though he posted less in those I really felt like he directly engaged other players more. DDL on the other hand was still at least making reads and has been way more cooperative. As I mentioned earlier, for someone who hates inactivity BEF sure did disappear at the right time.

The wagon speeds:

I know this is a bit apples to oranges, but holy shit that DL wagon took off so quickly. I know we are under time constraints but that was effortless compared to the BEF wagon. We have been struggling to get a consensus on him forever. The reason the comparison is a bit apples to oranges is because now we are near deadline so wagons are going to pick up faster, but still...damn. Never seen one go that fast.

The rest of BEF's play has still been scummy

This one speaks for itself, as I have made the case for him time and time again, but he has used inactivity as a crutch of his arguments, pulled really easily verifiable faulty meta on me, walked back some of his case but kept his vote parked on me, hasn't engaged many players, and has been on three opportune wagons without ever really driving them or trying to actually ascertain the wagonee's alignment.


You're never 100% confident here, but if scum flips 25% on day one on average, I think BEF flips scum like 60% of the time here. This isn't bad play, it is mafia play. The right play for town is to lynch within claims and my pick for that is BEF.

[LolWagons]

The JK will never be verifiable. We can verify the vig. If BEF is the mafia jailkeeper like I think he might be now, we have the potential to shoot a lurker or someone who might look scummy if BEF flips. And with the JK out of the way, we would probably hit the target. I know we can WIFOM about the claims and what scum is more likely to claim, but at the end of the day we have a chance to verify with the Vig still alive, assuming they arent the nightkill.

this is circular logic

Which why it went under "Setup Spec"

It's not exactly circular logic, but it is WIFOM, and I get that, and there is some logic behind it. Still, what do you think of the other points?

[LolWagons]

essentially two of your points are "BEF is scummy" and like... yeah. but like that's not exclusive to him as scum from pretty much every single game that i've seen him in.

as for wagon speeds i just dont think its all that meaningful

Did you just read the bold? I thought I did pretty good at explaining why I thought he was scummy. Please don’t reduce that analysis to me just making unfounded statements.

[LolWagons]

BEF is LHF that can get lynched any day and i want this to go through today

Well we are at a stand-off then, because although I’d vote Doolittle I’m not giving in on BEF. I’m pretty confident on this read. Just because he’s mislynch bait doesn’t mean he’s immune from actually getting a Mafia role PM.

[LolWagons]

essentially two of your points are "BEF is scummy" and like... yeah. but like that's not exclusive to him as scum from pretty much every single game that i've seen him in.

as for wagon speeds i just dont think its all that meaningful

Did you just read the bold? I thought I did pretty good at explaining why I thought he was scummy. Please don’t reduce that analysis to me just making unfounded statements.

i'm not trying to reduce your statements and i didn't say that they're unfounded. all i'm saying is that we just fundamentally disagree when it comes to the connection of BEF being wolfy equalling BEF being wolf

like, to be clear – i don't disagree with your case that his play is wolfy. i just try to pride myself on not falling prey to lynchbait, and i think i have a pretty good history when it comes to that

Okay sorry. Just a little irritated because it seemed like you were saying I was just saying he was scummy without reasons.

[LolWagons]

essentially two of your points are "BEF is scummy" and like... yeah. but like that's not exclusive to him as scum from pretty much every single game that i've seen him in.

as for wagon speeds i just dont think its all that meaningful

Did you just read the bold? I thought I did pretty good at explaining why I thought he was scummy. Please don’t reduce that analysis to me just making unfounded statements.

i'm not trying to reduce your statements and i didn't say that they're unfounded. all i'm saying is that we just fundamentally disagree when it comes to the connection of BEF being wolfy equalling BEF being wolf

like, to be clear – i don't disagree with your case that his play is wolfy. i just try to pride myself on not falling prey to lynchbait, and i think i have a pretty good history when it comes to that

I have to pick your brain: how do you try to separate lynchbait from actual scum then?

[LolWagons]

also maf JK like never claims JK so if BEF is wolf i would put it at serious odds that he's not actually a jailkeeper

(not even mentioning the fact that a mafia jailkeeper is serious fucking scum power in terms of how the NRG balances games)

That’s fair. He could be goon. They could both be goon and albeit frustrating we have had a productive day. I’ll hammer on DDL but not before I know for sure I can’t get the votes on BEF.

[LolWagons]

Just answered your question. Sorry.

Yes, I’m not going to let a no lynch happen but I want to know first that BEF was not possible. Does that make sense?

[LolWagons]

I understand Ruby. I don’t agree with your interpretation of events but I did want to understand the thought process.

[LolWagons]

Down to the wire. This will be for the history books.

Egix and Trivium, you should come back on to the BEF wagon with me. It’s better.

DD. If we do a town second lynch we should probably plan out based on BEF town or BEF mafia.

[LolWagons]

If your policy is to never lynch PR claims, you’ll only ever lynch VTs >_>

[LolWagons]

Okay I don’t know if anyone has ever answered me directly, but I thought SK was no longer in normals now? I swear I read that somewhere.

Mala ruby already did a pretty good job explains the case on DDL a couple pages back.

[LolWagons]

Trivium, go for BEF. We have the votes for that among our active people here now.

[LolWagons]

You can double check before you vote (highly recommend checking) but your vote would put him at L-1, which I would go ahead and do while Mala and El have both been on recently. We don’t want this to fizzle.

[LolWagons]

Elbirn or Mala can hammer.

DD, I actually don’t think trivium is a good shot anymore. Especially if BEF flips scum. Triv and to a lesser extend DB and I have both been counterwagons to him. As well as you.

Which... now that I have realized there’s been four counterwagons to one guy, yeah, still cool with this.

[LolWagons]

Towns keeping you alive because your claim is more verifiable and you haven’t acted nearly as anti-town as BEF.

[LolWagons]

BEF-scum is hard. I say it should be one of the lower activity slots. But not Springtrap because he was kind of a crucial vote between your wagon and BEF

BEF-town any low activity poster.

I don’t want to give you an exact person just in case this goes ass up and BEF is town. We want scum to not know whether to roleblock you or not so we can verify you. We can at least make them weigh the odds of a free misfire against confirming you.

[LolWagons]

Trivium anything to add before Mala hammers?

[LolWagons]

I can hammer

So DDL is the vig claim
And BEF is the Jk?

Correct

[LolWagons]

Trivium anything to add before Mala hammers?

I think if BEF flips town there's no way DDL is actually the vig anyways, but it doesn't matter saying that to you because that would make you probably scum too.

It makes me way worse than I was at this game a few years ago, anyway. But I can’t blame you for your logic. I’m hoping that it doesn’t matter.

[LolWagons]

Yeah fair enough re:Mala

Alright Malakitty, I think we are ready

[LolWagons]

Alright folks, off to bed. Normally don’t share my sleeping habits with fellow players but I probably won’t be awake before the hammer drops. Feel good about this.

[LolWagons]

hey springtrap who should i kill

If I was a vigilante I'd shoot Sad Sheep for being... Well, what he is. Not like scum would waste their time on him if he's town and if he's scum, then we kill scum.

Ignore me if you actually have something stronger then a nullread on him, but that's my suggestion. Killing him doesn't really hurt town, I think.

And if scum try to frame you and no-kill? Well, we only lose Sad Sheep.

More of this type of stuff on day 2, if your schedule allows it.

Now I’m off to bed.

[LolWagons]

VOTE: Ruby Red

[LolWagons]

not a bad idea, but I kinda wanna think on it more.

We got 9 days, no rush. What ya thinking?

[LolWagons]

I can’t handle you two lol

Doughboy honestly not sure about. Still think he’s town in isolation but he’s becoming increasingly frustrating to deal with and it’s very valid that he chainsawed the hell out of the game yesterday.

On mobile right now. Trivium, do you sincerely think I bussed? I had like three opportunities to get off that wagon. Optimal play for bussing scum would have been to feign compromise on the DD lynch and then setup BEF for the next day and still get towncred. I still would have been the guy that pushed for him the most.

Springtrap and Egix were both very crucial votes on the BEF wagon fiasco. Egix came in and voted BEF when we were having fun with Doughboy and Springtrap laid the crucial pivot vote on BEF. I don’t think either have played super townie in isolation, but their interactions with BEF make it unlikely they are scum. Springtrap town makes Ruby scum make a lot more sense.

Profii was pretty consistently on BEF, still don’t think he’s scum. Same with Ceejay.

Not Lynching:
Profii
Ceejay
Springtrap
Egix

Would take mass amounts of convincing:
Elbirn
Trivium

Maybe:
Doughboy
Malakitty

My rope is ready:
Ruby

Ruby was basically using BEF meta as a shield to not lynch him. The reasoning behind wanting to lynch the big claim came across as contrived. I was alright with the logic of discernment between lynchbait and scum but I don’t feel like it was fleshed out enough to be convincing and instead of applying it to BEF Ruby applies it to Mala. Penguin also avoided the BEF slot from what I remember.

[LolWagons]

I didn’t even have a read on bef until I was positive you/trivium were scum. I’ll apoogizr if I’m wrong about both of you but that requires you both getting lynched. Bef flipping scum doesn’t disprove my theory.

Not gonna lynch a town read and a leaning town read so you can stop tunneling sorry

[LolWagons]

I’ll just add that the bolder part isn’t what bothers me, it’s the

“I’m sure there’s scum here” then “I’m willing to lynch outside the group”

Like, if you know there’s scum there, why would you not take the 50/50... or possibly even 100 if they both are.

[LolWagons]

I swear to god I’m going to Frankenstein DD back to life and have him use his second bullet on you DB

[LolWagons]

I’d prefer you leave

[LolWagons]

An I playing mafia or watching The View?

You people are so dramatic

[LolWagons]

Sure do. Just don’t think El is today’s lynch. My guess is one defended and one bussed. Usually how it goes.

I’ve been back and forth on Trivium but right up to BEFs lynch they had some really odd back and forth I don’t see coming from buddies. I could probably compromise on trivium but Red is still my strongest read. And I did well not compromising yesterday.

[LolWagons]

Trivium what ya thinking today?

[LolWagons]

UNVOTE:

Still like the vote but that was L-1 I want to slow it down a bit.

[LolWagons]

DB: In a world where Trivium flips town what do you do?

[LolWagons]

Gone be straight with y’all, not much to add until Ruby gets here. If anyone has questions for me let em rip.

[LolWagons]

You got Triv as town, LolW?

If Ruby flips red I do. If Ruby flips green, I'd say still leaning town for me.

Idk what we will do with Mala.

VOTE: Ruby Red

[LolWagons]

I heard a rumour Triv is town, ok?

Because this doesn’t feel sketchy at all

Think of it like insider trading - put your life savings on Town!triv

There is a thing I have an issue with but not sure we can discuss now.

I wouldn't. We might get lucky and its Mala+Ruby but lets not make it any more obvious.

[LolWagons]

Also that post was super-town, thanks for confirming my read on you.

[LolWagons]

Ruby red isnt posting anywhere else on site, but then their topics show this is the only game they're in and they dont participate in any other threads? Probably an alt?

I don't know many people with "Goon" next to their name that are that familiar with the way things go around here, so my guess is yes.

[LolWagons]

Alright I trust profli and lolwagons enough at this point to sheep that; ruby flips red and this is a town block with one scum left. I'm still pretty unsure especially because of that springtrap interaction but hell we'll have another day if this goes awry, intent to hammer, give us a role ruby.

Idk Springtrap popped on the BEF wagon at a crucial point in it. I just don't see a newbie bussing like that. The only way I see that happening is if they didn't know better...but with day talk, I feel like they would have consulted first, and been told not to, or to hold off. Idk. I don't want to be cocky or waste a D1 scum lynch but I feel like we probably have this, and I don't see myself getting past Ruby being scum. I wouldn't forgive myself if we let that slot live and they wound up being BEF's partner.

[LolWagons]

I'm leaving that up to you.

1) I've had four beers and don't feel like I should be making judgement calls and
2) On the off-chance you are scum and I've made a terrible mistake I'm not letting you put the responsibility of your hammer on me

[LolWagons]

I feel like a PR would want to lynch one of the two other PR claims, tbh

[LolWagons]

You would think town would be super motivated to keep the slot active on D2, especially if it is an alt like we think. Scum D1 doesn't happen super often and I feel like it is a big boon for town.

[LolWagons]

Fair assessment. Not as confident on this as I am BEF but would still say if we have a 20% chance here RR flips Red around half the time.

[LolWagons]

Although if RR flips Red I have a really hard time believing its Mala tbh

Because when I asked RR for justification on why she believed BEF she used Mala as an example. If you were scum, would you use your first buddy as an example to defend your other buddy? Seems super bold.

[LolWagons]

I just rushed that in case thread lock lol it’s just a slot that we will struggle to sort so

But there is a whole night phase to consider and I’m assuming the PR is some cop variant

Mod's a troll, we got a Night 4 tracker

[LolWagons]

VOTE: malakitty

[LolWagons]

Egix/Spring/Trivium are town.

Egix, vote Mala with me.

[LolWagons]

VOTE: Elbirn

Honestly that’s fine.

Egix your first post about Profii baiting the nightkill and your placement on the BEF wagon makes me think you’re town.

No way Springtrap is scum as he also has a super important place on the BEF wagon AND RR was targeting him.

I trust Profiis read on Trivium and he also died. Also would Trivium shoot his biggest advocate?

Trivium, Springtrap: Obvtown at this point.
Egix, Ceejay: Highly likely town.
That leaves Mala, Elbirn, DB.

We probably still have at least two PRs left as well. If they are people who aren’t obvtown then we’ve nailed this.

[LolWagons]

Oh. And that’s the only person to visit him?

[LolWagons]

VOTE: Trivium

If this is seriously it and we lynched three in a row... what a way to celebrate ending my four year hiatus.

[LolWagons]

Good watch btw

[LolWagons]

You probably saved the game with that. I wouldn’t have lynched Triv. If that’s really game, really well played Triv.

[LolWagons]

That’s four. Should we wait for a claim or just hammer?

[LolWagons]

UNVOTE:

Let’s let him claim. Arguably there could be a Ninja Mafia and he visited Profii as a PR

[LolWagons]

I think it is too, and I’m running every situation through my head and I can’t see a scenario where we don’t lynch him. But just in case I’m not accounting for something.

[LolWagons]

VOTE: Trivium

Doc and Watcher in same game plus a strongman ninja seems ridiculous.

[LolWagons]

Oh lol

[LolWagons]

Trivium you played extremely well. Seriously.

[LolWagons]

Scum should have gotten a ninja with a watcher

[LolWagons]

Yeah tbh I though once Profii flopped VT that Triv was a friendly neighbor. So his fake soft claiming could have been very dangerous. Still really enjoyed playing with y’all though

[LolWagons]

I was doing partner analysis on every pairing and there was a point I thought that Profii and Triv were masons lol. It was after ruby lynch.

[LolWagons]

Yeah tbh I though once Profii flopped VT that Triv was a friendly neighbor. So his fake soft claiming could have been very dangerous. Still really enjoyed playing with y’all though

Yeah I figured he was a pr who was just really sure I was town, I didn't want to risk it and I knew killing profli would make me look super town

It worked, on me anyway

[LolWagons]

Btw lolwagons the only reason you were so convinced I was town was because I treated you & profli like yall were smart and you were

Doughboy it's okay, I've got thicker skin than I make it sound like. Just look out for people who don't, same thing I said about mala, we don't know each other's situations. Have a good day dude.

Thanks! I’m proud of my town play this game. Glad I had El to back me up Day 3.

[LolWagons]

speaking of which lol I'd like to play more games with you in them, let me know when you plan on queuing for one if that's alright

I was going to say the same to you!

I really enjoyed playing with all of you, so no one get offended, but Id love to see Trivium, Profii, and Elbirn in more games in the future. If any of y’all want to hydra I’d be up for that as well.

[LolWagons]

El who was your N1 watch

[LolWagons]

That’s alright but I truly had Triv as friendly neighbor who visited Pro N1. If I hadn’t gotten that watcher report and he had claimed that...

[LolWagons]

Calling CeeJay as third PR if there is one

[LolWagons]

As if on queue haha

[LolWagons]

2-shot vig, watcher, three goons.

I would assume there’s another role in there somewhere.

[LolWagons]

Damn if only do shot trivium like he said he was gonna.

Yeah that would have blown the game wide open.

[LolWagons]

2-shot vig, watcher, three goons.

I would assume there’s another role in there somewhere.

Me. I was lyncher and trivium was my lynchee

Hey same with BEF and I

[LolWagons]

Oh nice.

That setup isn’t super townsided. Maybe just a tad. I’d say scum should have gotten maybe a 1-shot ninja kill to avoid the watcher. Or maybe an even night rolecop.

[LolWagons]

You were a very good mod Chibi

[LolWagons]

Agree with most of it Profii.

I do think BEF was scummy but wasn’t super confident in that read until his claim. That’s when I was confident enough to bank my own safety in the game on it.

[LolWagons]

His reluctance to immediately explain why answering a setup question was scummy sealed it for me.

[LolWagons]

DB sorry for your loss. I understand the need for escapism. No harm done.

[LolWagons]

Make no mistake Profii despite the Triv stuff you’re a damn good player.

And kudos to DB for seeing what we couldn’t

[LolWagons]

I have to think people were cussing me out in that Scum thread lol

[LolWagons]

Also hopefully no hard feelings @BEF

[LolWagons]

That’s alright but I truly had Triv as friendly neighbor who visited Pro N1. If I hadn’t gotten that watcher report and he had claimed that...

lol if I was friendly neighbor I would have immmmmediately visited doughboy just to fuck with him

Haha that would have been the most correct and most satisfying play

[LolWagons]

I really do think y’all should have gotten like half a PR though

Watcher is powerful. Having a backup? Super powerful. Sure the results don’t transfer but it’s investigative and protective.

Did you guys push Spring because you thought he was PR? What a nightmare that would have been for town.

[LolWagons]

Also don’t mean to criticize the setup. I like more simple set ups like this. Overall it was super good. When you have like four town PRs and two scum PRs I feel like it takes away from the point of the game

[LolWagons]

VOTE: Cancer?

[LolWagons]

I have to think people were cussing me out in that Scum thread lol

Nah it was mostly egix

He did pretty damn good too

Really everyone played pretty strongly on both sides

[LolWagons]

4 in a 13 is crazy. That’s only two mislynches with town having to lynch 4. Not to mention most towns probably wouldn’t even think of 9 players remaining as lylo.

They really should have just had a buff. Some sort of limited roleblocker or ninja (novice, even night, 2-shot, etc) probably would have balanced it out and made the win feel a little less cheap.

[LolWagons]

Trying to reason as to whether a watcher and backup watcher makes the role more powerful or less. I think more.

[LolWagons]

You did well springtrap. I’d recommend engaging more directly with players but your votes were in the right place when it mattered and I was never really going to lynch you.

[LolWagons]

Chibibear you should join us all in the mini normal queue!