Mini Normal 2046: Autumn's Farewell [Endgame]

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: Kmd4390 because how did you get my PIN?...

[Vorkuta]

Serious votes before a third of the cast reports in.
I like it

VOTE: rb

[Vorkuta]

mbaki told us to do this in scumchat

[Vorkuta]

Kaythanks, but why?

Wow is there seriously more than four scums in this game?

I hope not.

I think you derped here.

What do you mean?

OBVIOUSLY I don't have access to scum chat. OBVIOUSLY. Guys, look at me OBVIOUSLY not scum.
Not buying it.

VOTE: Leodanny

[Vorkuta]

If everyone is willing to answer my questions and a serious version of RQS

What RQS questions are you proposing then?

[Vorkuta]

Walls suck.

Engagement level = high

[Vorkuta]

wow we have conf scum
VOTE: suka

also because the name isn't very politically correct in slav languages

[Vorkuta]

@rb- are you like... breadcrumbing with your 'wow's everywhere?
Is this your scumtell?

As for the Yyotta lynch- she won't come back except to basically 'prod-dodge'.
She pulls this stuff in her other games with her acting surprised an RVS vote, and the resulting 'why meeee?'
I'd support the policy lynch on her, but it's very much NAI, and her flip either way won't give us anything (unless we jackpot a scum PR )

[Vorkuta]

OkaPoka conf!town in my books

[Vorkuta]

This could be on the awkward townie side I think.

So you're allowing that newbie!town slip to slide?
I'm not happy without further scrutiny but fine.

As for my YYotta vote, that was never a serious vote and was only meant to highlight Oka talking out of their ass.

I had the same impression

[Vorkuta]

The scrutiny will apply to your future posts.
I just want it on record that I view what you're doing as trying to consciously establish yourself as clueless newbie!town, and that pings my scum radar.
I also really don't like how others are letting you get away with it- it means that you're succeeding.

[Vorkuta]

Even 10 townreads feel bad tbh (specially if the three remainning don't all feel like scum),

Can you TL;DR them into 1 nice concise post as your ISO is a bit difficult and flip-floppy to read?
Also it would help with sorting you out.

[Vorkuta]

but 252 is townie.

My scum game is just me trying to match my town game.

So..... what you're saying is... that it could also be not so townie

[Vorkuta]

Well what's an example of obv!town behavior?
And are you literally just clearing people based on... meta interactions, and RVS justification?

[Vorkuta]

I'm willing to jump on the DDL wagon (when/if he comes back) even though it doesn't really make sense to me..

I don't know if he is trying to use AtE to get people off of him and its having the opposite effect or what

Pretty much this- I think scum is way too classy to AtE, especially come D1...

[Vorkuta]

And how is NC obv scum?

Dual ISO us and tell me what you think.

TvT

[Vorkuta]

I'd like to push for a Yyotta D-1 lynch.

-She'll basically only stop by to prod dodge
-Completely refuse to interact with us
-and If she says LITERALLY ANYTHING in her defense I'll drop it.

It's an extremely frustrating slot to deal with, and if anything the support for/against her will give town something to go on.

where did YyottaCat go

Yyotta could you walk me through your thought process?

Yyotta how are you feeling about this game?

[Vorkuta]

YYotta on policy rather than scumhunting principles.

And I don't claim otherwise. It's just as you say-

I could lynch every one of the posters from the last two pages

I could dig up quotes that dinged my scum radar on almost every player here and that just makes this game waay too hard to figure out. I don't see the grounds or the foundations for the nc, suka, DDL, and fish, scum accusations. Maybe there's way too much friendly/meta interaction going on (disclaimer- played only with varsoon and yyotta here in newbie games before before) but I can't find anyone to build up my town core with.
So I'd like to get a quick lynch and move on to night stage for when PRs can truly shine.

Bring the hate

[Vorkuta]

you are currently voting Suka, the person you're dismissing as town, and not YYotta

Sorry, that was just me wagon hopping.

If I can get a Yyotta

policy

wagon going, then I'll get on it.
Otherwise I'll just park my vote nowhere until someone registers on my scum radar beyond a reasonable doubt.
UNVOTE:

[Vorkuta]

Will you join me on it, or would you rather let the game play out and scumhunt?
I'm worried that I just won't have any takers as the veteran players here are getting quite heated.

Also- I'm just curious as to whether she'll even ACKNOWLEDGE this without being at L-2 or L-1.

[Vorkuta]

Reassuring.
Any other takers (aside from the 2 already on it?)

[Vorkuta]

Vorkuta you should vote!

Sure- let me just hop on the Suka wagon and make it L-1!!!

No.
Not until I have even the slightest idea of who MIGHT be scum/town.

[Vorkuta]

His posts. Especially the one where he votes me.

I'd also be willing to lynch Vorkuta at this point.

Well you realize that you aren't exactly scoring brownie points with that reasoning?
With my vote on you, that'll make 6 (4 as per VC, 1 from mbaki right after).
Anyone with an intent to hammer/follow up?

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: Yyotta unless she says literally anything, at which point I hop on the suka wagon.
Barring future developments of course.

[Vorkuta]

If it doesn't make sense to you, why are you willing to jump on it?

It's like with most things this game- I'm hoping that the process of jumping on said wagon would help me understand the wagon better.

What would be the reason for jumping off? Do you no longer scum read Suka?

I really don't like the way she responds to things, but likewise I think that even if she were scum she'd show the bare minimum effort in TRYING to defend herself.

Why were you even voting a town read in the first place?

To see where the wagon would take me.

Vorkuta, why are you playing so much worse than your initial newbie game?

What does this even mean..? Where do I even begin?
-I replaced into my initial newbie game that already had like 3 L-1 wagons worth of feuds to analyze.
-I didn't do jack that game. We won because of

divine

PR intervention.
-you're all meta reading each other more than you are actually... deducing stuff.

[Vorkuta]

Not 'wrong' no:
apparently according to suka my playstyle this game sucks compared to my newbie game.
I'm replying with "in my newbie game I had stuff to analyse- here I don't"

[Vorkuta]

Has something changed?

Suka made more posts

But seriously- in all fairness, I want to see the Yyotta wagon go through as she'll stonewall the game otherwise. (prove me wrong!)
If it won't happen at all, then

So I'd like to get a quick lynch and move on to night stage for when PRs can truly shine.

[Vorkuta]

Vorkuta, why don't you vote Bright with me?

Because I don't think that it will through

His ISO only gives me:
Yyota RVS and bit of pressure
sorry afk
sorry what'd I miss
wow guys, hating on me for asking for help
varsoon stop bully
DDL AtE = don't get the scum hread
Suka wagon

and that gives my literally no grounds to vote on him
Like- what am I supposed to say when asked for why I would be voting for BEF- Suka told me to?

[Vorkuta]

I think suka has a chance of being scum

Ok I'll play ball

Suka's posts come off as very pushy for whatever wagon she's feels like pushing and have a very mean time.
Based on the way she posts, I doubt that she's a newbie, and hence I think she's fishing for things.
Like there's no way good scum!suka ends up at L-2 THIS EARLY ON.

[Vorkuta]

this is really the only Vork post that seems scummy to me.

You see- that's my problem with this game in particular.
scum!vork would have such an easy pass right now, that it's not even funny.
I think the same goes for a third of the entire player cast.

[Vorkuta]

What if she's just not good?

I think that's reaching a bit.

So you'd rather conclude that you're playing with bad players, rather than potentially 'overestimate' someone?
Maybe I'll change my mind with more games under my belt, but I don't buy it.

how would a scum Vork navigate this game?

I don't know- I didn't roll scum

There's no answer I can give you that will satisfy you.
I'm not going to make claims like:

My scum game is just me trying to match my town game.

But the fact remains- there ARE people for whom the winning strategy as scum is to lay low, bus if necessary, and just not draw attention for as long as possible and win by lurking. I've 'idled' around in the game for long enough to realize that with the way this game is going, a third of the player cast could literally get away with that.

[Vorkuta]

I'm saying she could totally get caught.

She literally has to do the exact opposite of what she's doing right now (playing Suka against the world) to not get caught.
Like this is D-1.

[Vorkuta]

but what if she just plays the same way regardless of alignment?

-Unfortunately we can't prove that as she has only 1 other game on site.
-I think (MY judgement call here- look at her arguments, and she's not playing the newbie card her) she has a few games under her belt, and I doubt she could be effective at mafia with having an alignment non-indicative playstyle that basically gets her lynched at D-1.

[Vorkuta]

439 sounds weird.

I wanted to confirm whether she knew exactly that she was almost at L-1 and was... 'ok' with it.
Like 'wouldn't change anything about what I've been doing up until now' ok.

[Vorkuta]

Nope. Vorkuta's town.

I invoke

potato

Leodanny's

Kaythanks, but why?

Like you guys are just handing town reads out like participation trophies.

[Vorkuta]

so keeping my vote parked on that slot does nothing

Just.. not disagreeing with anything you've said... loved the whole speech... but....
Isn't the answer 'more votes on Yyotta'?
Like that slot is unresolved, and will stay that way until something/someone does something.

[Vorkuta]

Sorry Yyotta, but that doesn't qualify as

-and If she says LITERALLY ANYTHING in her defense I'll drop it.

My vote is still on you.

[Vorkuta]

We should probably coordinate a quickhammer on Vorkuta

How's that going for you?
Seriously though- what for?

I find myself agreeing with

Creature's content is ass

[Vorkuta]

and your wagon choices are

That's uh.. very aggressive herding coming from you.
Like this comes of as scum!nc basically proclaiming "as scum, I allow you to pick these 4 wagons to jump on as my scum partners aren't at risk"

[Vorkuta]

Not happy with the yyotta wagon I take it

[Vorkuta]

Right ok- what did I do that's scummy this time?

and @mbaki- is #666 a readlist with townreads on top? or a 'would not lynch' list? Because the two can be quite different.

[Vorkuta]

Oh wow- that's how you get people to reply to you?
We still have 4 days left- that's enough time to start an NC wagon, don't you think?

I don't think you approach of herding votes by deciding what wagons can or can't go through on D-1 is very town friendly.
It's narrow in scope and it feels like an anti-town thing to say.

I mean sure- you can go down the entire player cast and give a reason for why a wagon on the SHOULD exist, or why a wagon on them WON'T go through today, however urging 4 lurking players to explicitly PICK one of the 4 'NC-approved-wagons' still strikes me as scum. Like they see the VC and the general state of town. Why the herding?

[Vorkuta]

every post someone makes that isn't voting the wagons i'm on is a shitpost tbh

I'm still dying from this quote- is it a shitpost if I defend myself?

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: mbaki as I want this more than the yyotta lynch, but willing to switch back.

[Vorkuta]

and your wagon choices are

see what I mean?
mbaki wagon is a thing now, and it wouldn't have been if people listened to your herding

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: DrDolittle

VOTE: DrDolittle

You know you're not changing your vote right? Like what are you even trying to emphasize?

[Vorkuta]

maybe im misunderstanding vorkuta wagon

I'm not even understanding the wagon on me- I try and push for a policy lynch on Yyotta early on because LyLo reasons, it gets more or less shot down. So I back off and try and focus on my actual scum reads and call out plays that people make that ping my scum radar and now bam: the Yyotta wagon is being reconsidered and I'm being scum read.

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: YyottaCat @L-2

At least DDL is doing SOMETHING

[Vorkuta]

Done posting here. Good luck town.

Thanks for... the town read?
Are you replacing out? Is this is a scum play?

[Vorkuta]

overboard with the push

Hi hi how can I help explain things?
The yyotta push? That would also have to do with a previous game I had with her.

[Vorkuta]

What happened to...?

I believe that means Vorkuta is town?

Look if you're going to base your entire theory that I'm scum simply on me jokingly asking rb 'what's with the wows' then... like... wow.

[Vorkuta]

I mean literally everywhere I read (site meta/wiki) says that a self-vote is an extremely scum thing to do.
Why the change of heart and change of tactics all of a sudden?

[Vorkuta]

VOTE: mbaki @L-2

[Vorkuta]

If you're going to cherrypick rb's posts and """crumbs""", let me help with that

mbaki confirmed scum

[Vorkuta]

Idk mbaki- I already told you why your scum read on me has no solid ground. What more do you want?
My vote isn't changing.

[Vorkuta]

Ok I have like 50 questions now (most of them towards mbaki because what he says makes no sense and just comes off as anti-town)

-How am I at L-1? It takes 6 to lynch and I count 4 (DDL, mbaki, nc, & fish). Fish put me at L-2, not L-1.

-Ok really: was I the ONLY person annoyed at rb's wow's so much that I wanted to call them out on it?
But noooo it's scum!vork traitor hunting. How on earth is that a 'scum claim' or anything of the sort?

-Seriously- if you're going to use 'inexperience' as an argument for 'vork is scum', I'll do the same thing and say I'm so inexperienced I didn't even know traitor was a role. After all- 3 newbie games and no mafia 'traitors' in there.

-Why are you guys giving the lurksacks and fluffposters a huge pass and not pressuring them to say something?
Your entire game plan, reasoning, and logic basically hinges on ME to flip red, leaving you in a complete crisis with a third of the player cast unaccounted for when I flip green.

-Again: your claim to read rb's breadcrumbs is complete BS.
RB couldn't have '''crumbed''' me because I'm not scum.
How is rb's #17 ANY less valid than his alleged crumbing of me?

The way I see it: you found yourself an easy newbie scapegoat to lynch on D2.
It'll cause scum!mbaki no worries or issues whatsoever, it won't reveal ANY useful information ('oh noo suka's defending him' can go both ways and you know it), and scum is one mislynch closer to victory.

So please- can you explain to me (like I'm a complete newbie) how you got that I was """traitor-hunting""" and """scum-claiming""" from what I've said so far?

[Vorkuta]

If you are scum, which you are, you would know traitor was a role because it would be in your PT chat and likely role pm that you have a traitor.

And if I'm not scum, I wouldn't have anything referring to a 'traitor' in my role pm.
LIkewise- if I WERE scum, wouldn't I have like... instructions and things to do/not do coming from slightly more experienced members?

Again, all I have to say to this is "lmao".

Ok fine- to any other parties:
How is rb's "crumbing" of mbaki and DDL any less valid than the alleged crumbing of myself?
This is cherrypicking at its finest. Let's ignore all the other things rb tried to share with us, and let's go focus on the newbie push.

you reference it in this very post twice

You mean scum being 1 mislynch closer to victory?
You're twisting my words- there's nothing 'defeatist' about my attitude here.

you aren't making any attempt to sort my alignment

I'd love to try but you're making it so damn difficult with YOUR defeatism/self-vote, then revival, and subsequent tunneling on me.
The fact that you're REFUSING to consider that scum might've easily pinned the ""blunder"" on a newbie townie like me is very anti-town of you, and seeing as this is the ONLY thing you've done (after self-voting) this D2, my vote still stands.

[Vorkuta]

What're your reads, Vorkuta?

I have a problem reading players like Varsoon, Creature, Leodanny, and Kmd, so I'd like to wait until they get back here.
My entire case is that: I'm not scum, yet people have decided that for whatever reason #181 has been misinterpreted as 'scum!vork is traitor hunting'
I'd like to see who supports this stance and who doesn't. From that I can decide whether it's scum coordinating a mislynch on me, or genuine townies reading this as scum behavior.

[Vorkuta]

You asked rb if he was your traitor, he said yes.

.............
what is this I can't even

On one hand your logic and reasoning is bad and that's scum.
On the other hand your persistent tunneling (regardless of how bad it is) feels town.

[Vorkuta]

Vorkuta has never used the word breadcrumbing before that post anywhere on this site.

Delete the 'ing' portion of that word.
I don't know what case you're trying to build with that but ok.

[Vorkuta]

Cool at L-1 now. Not claiming without an intent to hammer.
Remember who's on my wagon and who's not on my wagon.

DDL and BEF just passively jumped on it because 'meh why not'. Hell- in DDL's case this basically started off as a counter wagon so he'll gladly jump on any life raft offered.
Oka.... gave up on the mbaki lynch attempt.
Mbaki and NC are actively pushing it, and providing (bad) reasons for them.

Like NC goes line by line through my ISO and points out that I'm not doing 100% town things with every single one of my posts. Let me respond to some of them.

Scum that's trying to talk Creature down from his reads?

Creature's content is ass and you know it

Oh cool thanks for doing the legwork for me there.

flimsy reason to support the wagon

For what its worth I was in another game with Yyotta (was ongoing at the time) and she flipped scum there with pretty much the same behavior/content/activity. I didn't want to bring it up because 'not discussing ongoing games'. But LYLO liability is a thing.

not scumhunting

This game has a thousand posts. Want me to comb through every single player's ISO and figure out the total %age of their posts that isn't devoted to scumhunting?

scum annoyed that town are town reading other town.

Some of you do give out town reads left and right for literally the dumbest reasons imaginable- case in point garbage (no offense creature ) like this

rb is probtown

[Vorkuta]

Now's a good time to do my reads probably: I'm torn here.
Is there real scum on my wagon? Or is scum trying to protect me because lynchbait/they expect my lynch to go through and will have perfect scapegoats come D3/D4? Obviously I'd love to completely town read suka and varsoon for defending me, while scum reading NC and mbaki for the BS that they conjure up my way. However that would me the most obvious conclusion and I doubt scum that is obvious: that was my entire reason for clearing suka early on in D-1 in the first place.

Sure browsing mbaki's ISO doesn't exactly reveal him to be the paragon of friendliness. However, he's conveniently USING his horrible personality to deflect all reads and lynch attempts by saying 'well you don't actually SCUM read me, you hate me as a person and thats akin to policy lynching'. This, plus his wagon, screams powerwolfing to me, coupled with the fact that he "gave up because he had no value to town this game" but then magically decided to be able to clearly see rb's crumbs and that life was worth living after all. Its like his scum chat collectively decided- hey mbaki, don't off yourself just yet and he reconsidered.

NC's posts read that of a cynical player that won't have any of this WIFOM attempts and trying to pick agendas with players on this site. He could go either way.

Oka has been

harassed

bullied by mbaki the entire time so there's that- I read a lot of genuine frustration.
I can kind of relate to the player who's sick and confused of the initial RQS/RVS stage tries to do experiment with something new but has been shot down and scum read for.... said reasons. Oka then follows this up with the most active questioning, asking specific players to give reads, and overall trying to solve the game in general. I town read this but feel betrayed at you putting me and DDL at L-1

Suka reads as someone who has successfully avoided a wagon and is now trying to force push a BEF agenda. Obviously in my situation I would love to townread then and assume that they have special insight (PR much?) into BEF's alignment, but this tunelling makes me suspicious. I almost want to see the fallout that Suka will have to go through after a BEF flips (either way). I'm not going to scum read someone who wants to defend me and include me in their town core without better reasons.

Creature has been meta read to hell and back and when he's not lurking he's hyper posting. I'll defer to the rest of you on what his alignment is because the amount of fluff posting and completely unwarranted random 'X is town' or 'X is scum' without any explanation and selective ignoring of certain questions screams scum to me.

Varsoon I town read for the same reason I town read Suka- I don't believe, not for a second, that this lurking, V/LA, and just avoiding interactions is scum!varsoon's play. Sure this gameplay/style is tremendously different from my first game ever with him, but scum!Varsoon would put up much more of an interesting fight than.... this.... what he's doing now
Plus

I'm a horribly reactionary player.
I need to improve on this.
I need to be more proactive.
Just sitting around and responding and waiting for something to catch my eye as THIS IS SCUM doesn't cut it in games like this.

is self reflection and I town read this.

BEF has been bullied by mbaki (and a few others ) as well and is currently trying to interpret rb's crumbs slightly more objectively and without as much cherry picking as mbaki is. Seeing as rb's posts are the only things that we can use to solve the game, I town read this (and have no idea on how to react to Suka's push)
However this strikes me as... interesting

I'm vigging you tonight anyways so I don't care what you think.

DDL used a nice AtE early on and ended up as VT. As I said before, I'd like to think scum is classy enough to not stoop down to an AtE, and I think scum optimally claims anything but VT as it provides disruption, an opportunity to get conf!town read, all but guarantees them not to get lynched, and is overall the winning play for scum. His hope of delaying a lynch to not give the V/LA guys a free pass is something I town read.

Leodanny is probably using the newbie card more strongly than I am, but his posts seem to come from newb!town rather than newb!scum (yes, I changed my mind after parking my vote on him for a bit early on in D1). V/LA so....

Now for KMD- most of what he says I almost 90% agree with and I like how he's trying to consider every and all options. However... I get the feeling that there's a bit of LAMIST in his posts plus (again) I'm cynical of statements like this.

My scum game is just me trying to match my town game.

[Vorkuta]

Please don't townread that awful post because it has a lot of words.

*sighs* I'll bite.
Please explain why my post awful. Don't think of it as a courtesy to me, but as a service to the OTHER genuine townies out there.
Who knows- you might even make some good points

or dig yourself deeper in a hole

[Vorkuta]

First of all, this is a very personal attack (as is this whole post, such as with the constant use of bullying) and I don't appreciate it.

Spoiler:

I have great disdain for your style of play

I much prefer MU to this site, the quality of games is signficantly higher in my experience.

but I am bored of this interaction.

I possibly think you're obnoxious and childish

I am not going to bother interacting with Fish because I think I will rage sub if I continue.

Please stop talking to me. I do not like you nor respect your play

You didn't do shit, and I dont know why getting reads out of you is like pulling hairs.

I think he's just awful

You are in la la land

Pot calling the kettle black much? But I'll tone down my rhetoric from now on.

[Vorkuta]

Hey Dann- welcome and great to have you on board.

How should we read this post?

Who the fuck asks this? What town player asks this?

Ok guys- as I've already said it's a mix of several things
-It was early on in the game and I wasn't taking it too seriously (basically still in RVS)
-there was the possibility that rb was telling us to either completely disregard or pay special attention to posts that had 'wow's in them and I wanted to make sure: the fact rb's iso basically DOESN'T have any more 'wow's in them after the first "quarter" of D-1 made me drop it and assume that it was done for the lols. Considering my (was at the time) ongoing game had a nice case of breadcrumbing going on, I thought it was worth a shot
-This was the response

wow so true imo

Like what the hell was ANYONE supposed to surmise from this?
I took it to be just simple trolling/joking around and a bit of "stupid questions deserve stupid answers" type of thing and focused my efforts back on yyotta.

[Vorkuta]

ELI5- What's the wincon for a traitor IF the traitor is dead?
Does said traitor still win with a scum victory or a town victory?

[Vorkuta]

Then why would rb breadcrumb scum if it goes against rb's wincon?

[Vorkuta]

I claim Vanilla Townie