[Game Over] Open 743 - The Crown of Misery
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Not random BTW.
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At one point everyone but Inferno and Leo had confirmed (so there were 10+ confirmations), but the game wasn't open (so, scum hadn't chosen their roles yet). Could be one of those two is scum and that was the holdup. Doesn't prove anything, but I'd keep an eye on them.In post 6, MiniDeathStar wrote:The game will begin when 10 players have confirmed their roles and all undead have chosen theirs.- Persivul
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Mod should have followed this instead of the 10+ thing. In this kind of setup, early starts always lead to speculation, like:In post 2, MiniDeathStar wrote:The game beings when all roles are distributed and confirmed.
Inferno hasn't confirmed or posted yet. Could be that it's scum and mod just let the other scum choose as a majority. But on the face of it, this slot seems less likely to be scum.- Persivul
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And that's scummy rather than towny because...?In post 136, Auro wrote:Dunnstral's post 25 I dislike a lot -- after two fluff posts, he places a "completely random vote" on *me*, when I already had two votes and my wagon was growing.- Persivul
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Why would you ever locktown anyone (aside from certain claims in certain setups)?In post 173, Auro wrote:I just finished a game where I locktowned scum- Persivul
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1. You really think he's so inept at scum that he'd try to disguise a purposeful vote by outright announcing it as a completely random vote?In post 184, Auro wrote: The phrasing, "completely random vote" when I was collecting votes and my wagon was growing quick, with no vote till then.
2. Two votes /= collecting votes and my wagon was growing quick. Why the hyperbole?- Persivul
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<slow clap>In post 212, Thor665 wrote:I'll agree this might lead to players who play very poorly being lynched every game - hopefully it will teach them to not play poorly. I fail to see the issue.- Persivul
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There's no problem with it. The slow clap indicates I agree with the position.In post 259, Auro wrote:
What's the problem with this?In post 258, Persivul wrote:
<slow clap>In post 212, Thor665 wrote:I'll agree this might lead to players who play very poorly being lynched every game - hopefully it will teach them to not play poorly. I fail to see the issue.- Persivul
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First, it's not really accurate to phrase it as IIn post 261, Leodanny wrote: So why’d you change your mind?changed my mind. The setup issue I noted is weak and was mostly intended to help get out of RVS. I haven't really looked at you since. In fact, let's do that.
...
Now I've read your ISO, and I really wouldn't mind keeping my vote on you, particularly after the attempted spin above. But, let's stick with Lamees for now:
- three useless posts on the setup. She didn't follow up on the two questions. She was specifically asked for the reason for the questions and didn't respond.
- 101 - "He agreed with me though, so he can't possibly be scum." Seems like this is sarcasm intended to be funny, but then:
102 - "I'm also not trying to be funny."
- 144 149 233 - reads are way too strong for this point of the game- Persivul
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Nope. There are people on this site who have adopted a scummy playstyle. If they stick with it long enough, then:In post 264, Auro wrote:Okay. I thought the slow clap implied sarcasm.
- they're difficult to sort.
- they're difficult to push. Too many people accept theit's just a playstyle thingexcuse.
Fuck that. If you're town, you have a responsibility to show you're town.- Persivul
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do not talk about ongoing gamesEdit:Last edited by MiniDeathStar on Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.- Persivul
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I'm rearraning this a little.
Because people doing a surface analysis will read it as being scummy.In post 192, Auro wrote: Why would it be "inept" for Dunnstral to do that as scum?
They don't. It's incorrect to try to generalize that comment to all situations.Why does someone have to be inept for me to dislike something they did or said?
I do. It's two fucking votes. Besides, if you're town, you should welcome a D1 wagon. It's a wagon on the only person whose alignment you actually know, so it generates better information for you than wagons on others.Two votes on page 1 and I don't think it's a bad *page 1* conclusion to make that "Auro is getting wagoned".- Persivul
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And? They shouldIn post 268, Auro wrote:Thing is, I don't think some "naturally scummy" players do it intentionally.intentionallylearn to play a better game.
Here's what I see in her complete games:It takes a little more effort to sort them correctly, but I think it's bad to lynch players who aren't doing it intentionally -- Lamees gets scumread and lynched early fairly often, but that hasn't stopped her from playing the same, has it?
MT 2044 - killed N3
N 1892 - survived and won as mafia
N 1893 - lynched D2
N 1894 - lynched D1
N 1895 - survived and won as town
N 1900 - lynched D3
So, no, she isn't lynched early fairly often. She's surviving pretty well actually.
Why do you say she's an easy mislynch when that isn't the case?
Why hasn't she corrected you?- Persivul
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Seriously? Appearing to be making reads while also maintaining ambiguity is what scum do. Good scum anyway, and I see you have a scum win.In post 277, Lamees wrote:Even if there was contradiction (which there isn't) how is it even alignment indicative? Why would I as scum make contradicting posts?- Persivul
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You're admitting that you made a push that wasn't going to do anything.In post 283, Auro wrote:1. And people doing a surface analysis are easy to defend against, and I doubt town would bandy together on a surface analysis.
You can dislike whatever the fuck you want. Point is that, unless you think he's inept scum, it's not going to get you anywhere, as you admit above - such things are easy to defend against if the scum are any good at all.2. Cool, then. So someone doesn't have to be inept for me to dislike something they did; this implies that it's possible I disliked what he said without actually believing he'd be inept for doing it as scum.
You said you don't think it's a bad conclusion. I do think it's a bad conclusion.3. "I do" what?
136 gives me that impression - particularly the *me*.I do welcome D1 wagons -- where did I say I disliked the *wagon*? I disliked his phrasing of the vote, two different things.- Persivul
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He's not exactly attacking...which has me concerned.In post 309, Auro wrote: Still evaluating if Thor's attack on me is genuine.
He seems uncharitable towards any semantic misinterpretations I make, and I am getting confused by what he's saying, or least am continuing to interpret his posts wrong.
What do you think of our interaction?
My general impression as the game unfolded was that you weretaking overso to speak. That always concerns me. There's no more dangerous scum than one who has taken over the town. So, I've been watching you and poking at you. So far, you look town to me. And, town leaders tend to sort themselves out over time.
I don't get all this talk about "efforting" (and just turning effort into a verb bugs the hell out of me). You seem to me like the type that just continues arguing out of stubbornness, even if it's not helping you read and you don't need to defend. I get that. What I don't get is why Thor keeps on about it.- Persivul
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In post 149, Lamees wrote:We're lynching rb. I've seen this happen too much and lost games as town because of it. Not letting it go. My vote is on rb for the entire game until one of us gets lynched.
So you're scum claiming.In post 322, Lamees wrote:It's 1 to vote lamees
2 to vote lamees
I want an example where town has ever tunnel like this and what would the reason be. I have been in this situation before and was scum doing it.
That's a bold strategy, Cotton.- Persivul
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Maybe because they're on VLA...
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In post 340, rb wrote:wow real power roles stay quiet imoJUST STOP THE FUCKING WOWs and IMOs PLEASE.- Persivul
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No, pointing out that a slot is VLA isn't white knighting.In post 337, DVa wrote:
This is white knighting a slot that should by all rights be null to youIn post 331, Persivul wrote:Maybe because they're on VLA...
Yep.and shading me for pushing a null slot that is coming back from V/LA is anti-town.
Why?Could also do Mala today
VOTE: DVa- Persivul
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The thing is that I don't see why you would see expending effort as scum indicative. Town is supposed to expend effort. Scum therefore have incentive to expend effort. So, effort is NAI.In post 338, Thor665 wrote:What experience do you have with me that would expect me to let something go if I thought it was scum indicative?- Persivul
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Why did you claim? You were only at L-3 and deadline isn't near. I was beginning to come around on you anyway.In post 336, Lamees wrote:I rolled angel though
If you were lynched rn, who would you venge kill?- Persivul
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You're not at all concerned that it could be a real claim?In post 339, rb wrote:
pls no one counterclaim this fake claim imoIn post 336, Lamees wrote:I rolled angel though- Persivul
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Yeah that's what I was thinking too. Consider:In post 365, rb wrote:if they are actually angel and town, i welcome the vengekill to get me out of this tbh
Smite (reactive)
When an angel dies, the skies will open up and strike a creature of its
choosing. Unliving targets will be slain.
The smite is in effect a cop investigation, as long as we know who the target of the smite is before the angel dies. So we lynch Lamees and:Angelic kills work in a similar way to priest and witch hunter investigations. They kill
undead and ghost-possessed creatures, but spare non-undead and immortals.
1. She was scum who felt pressure and gambled that town hadn't roled an Angel, or
2. She's an angel and she smites rb. Then:
2a. If rb dies, great - he was scum.
2b. If rb lives, then he's pretty much conftown. 342 doesn't seem likely from an immortal, who would want an investigation on himself. Then scum have incentive to kill you, although they have to consider the possibility of protection.- Persivul
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Ouch. Ugh. That's like the worst possible answer you could have given.In post 367, Lamees wrote: That rb post right before my claim was the last straw.
Who would I kill is a secret.- Persivul
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Meh, I thought Angel was regular vengeful too. I just went to the beginning to see if scum have daytalk and only then recalled that Angel only kills scum. This isn't a solid slip.In post 368, Lamees wrote:
Lol oops. Looks like you slipped.In post 365, rb wrote:if they are actually angel and town, i welcome the vengekill to get me out of this tbh- Persivul
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We don't know that you're angel.In post 378, Lamees wrote:Lol if you think angel should be lynched day 1 then please go back to posting "wow imo" posts.
Why do you scum read rb so hard, yet wouldn't say that he'd be your smite target?
Why would angel want to keep its smite target secret, thereby depriving town of valuable information in the event the target survived? Yes, GF is a possibility, but it's still valuable info.- Persivul
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How is it random odds when you have such a strong scum read on rb?In post 381, Lamees wrote:"Angel gets a kill-therefore we should lynch day 1"
That's basically saying I should gamble on 3/9 odds. Nice work.- Persivul
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Why...In post 386, Lamees wrote:You're forgetting the amount of scum power roles out there, can't just name a target.
Not?
I see only pros to naming your target. Please explain the cons.- Persivul
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Scum have day talk. I think this makes it less likely that Lamees is scum making a fake claim. If I were her partner I'd sayIn post 3, MiniDeathStar wrote:Communication. The game thread will be locked during the night phase. Private topics
(such as the undead talk) will be open at all times.No fucking way should you risk a CC when you're only at L-3.- Persivul
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Are you saying it's scummy play, or just bad play?In post 379, rb wrote:*claims angel at L-4 on day1*
*lectures other players about how to play the game*
hehe
Seems like the latter to me. And, we can use it to our advantage. Scratch my earlier plan. Now let's consider:
- Every day before lynch, Lamees names her target in case she dies at night
- Then, scum can't kill her without giving us an investigation leading to a partial clear (partial because GF could be in play)- Persivul
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You're right, at least regarding nights. Forget my last plan. Ghost would make it unworkable. Also more town points for Lamees.In post 386, Lamees wrote: You're forgetting the amount of scum power roles out there, can't just name a target.- Persivul
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Unfortunately, that's a good point too.In post 375, rb wrote:so you, as the angel, for some reason didn't want to risk getting lynched as an angel with a smite mechanic...the whole point of your role?- Persivul
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Oh fuck, I missed that. Sorry for wasting a page.In post 402, Auro wrote:@Pers, scum is informed about what PRs town has
VOTE: Lamees- Persivul
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Or we could just kill it in the face.In post 404, Auro wrote:Now if it was a gambit, it would obviously be a planned one, not random.
We need to evaluate the effectiveness of fakeclaiming Angel early, and proceed from there.
If it's way too stupid to do (and right now I feel that) we could buy the claim, since we could lynch her later when there's a smaller pool, for a better chance of hitting scum anyway.- Persivul
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Fucking tease
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First, that's a big if.In post 407, Auro wrote:
If she's town,In post 405, Persivul wrote:Or we could just kill it in the face.
If you assume she's town, then you're saying we are at some point going to be:then we make better use of the vengekill by lynching her later, no? Correct me if I'm wrong.
- knowingly lynching town (discounting a NK, which is out of our hands), and
- as it would be a planned decision, we don't get real information from the lynch.
If I have to knowingly kill a townie for no information, I'd rather do it early, while we have a large numbers advantage.
Suppose we miss 2 days and it's 6:3. Do you really want to waste a lynch on a townie at that point?
But that's what would likely happen. The only way scum kill her is if: they have a ghost; and, are very confident that she would select a certain townie for the smite. Otherwise, killing her is all downside for them, no upside.The slot shouldn't go to LyLo though I think- Persivul
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Looks like Dunn and Mala are due for prods.In post 3, MiniDeathStar wrote:Try to post at least once a day. Being inactive for 36h will result in a prod.- Persivul
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In post 336, Lamees wrote:I rolled angel though
Er, OK - what dayIn post 378, Lamees wrote:Lol if you think angel should be lynched day 1 then please go back to posting "wow imo" posts.shouldAngel be lynched?- Persivul
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Cool, we're in agreement - lynching you is a win.In post 412, Lamees wrote: In my opinion, town should never be lynched. Even vanilla, which is basically what angel is alive. Hence my early claim. So it's kinda win win. If players don't believe I still get a smite.
No, they won't be forced to kill you. They'll kill you, or not, depending on your reads. You could accordingly disguise your reads, but then you're of no value to town anyway.And if they do, scum will be forced to night kill me,
You're not an IC.But if you are pushing an intentional town lynch that is a bad play, in my opinion.- Persivul
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The role card doesn't specify, but I would think that for a lynch, the smite resolves in twilight, so scum have no ability to affect it.In post 418, Auro wrote:VOTE: Lamees
Unless someone convinces me it's a bad idea to lynch Lamees today.
If Lam is scum, great.
If she's town and scum have a framer, they have to correctly guess her venge kill, so larger numbers works for us, and we don't deal with the WIFOM.- Persivul
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Really hate the way you keep spinning this as knowingly lynching town.In post 422, Lamees wrote:I expected this kind of reasons to vote me if it was last minute. Anyway I think I gave ample time for players to evaluate the claim. If by end of day 1 you'd still knowingly lynch town then can't be helped.
You're
not
an
IC.- Persivul
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Nope, lylo is lylo - lynch scum or lose.In post 423, Auro wrote:Actually wait, in LyLo we can lynch Lamees and she venge kills the second consensus scumread.
Suppose it's 4:3 lylo.
Kill Lamees, 3:3.
Lamees kills scum, 3:2.
Absent a protection, scum NK and win.
Removing one of each side is essentially a no lynch, which loses in lylo.- Persivul
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We could lynch Lamees and, if town, she smites rb.In post 431, Egix96 wrote:Okay, I've just had a quick skim through everything that happened since the last time I was here, which was about 24 hours ago.
Does anyone else think that rb's most recent posts (from about #339 onward) are very scummy in tone? Apart from the supposed scumslip, that is?
Maybe I'm getting hardcore pocketed by Lamees here, but in all honesty I would much rather lynch rb today.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: rb
@mod: if an angel is lynched, does the smite resolve before night begins?- Persivul
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I noted some time ago that I agree with that.In post 434, Lamees wrote:@persivul, for the last time, I am not telling who I'll smite!- Persivul
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50/50 or more means scum have already won.In post 435, Lamees wrote:Anyways I'll say it one more time before I move on from this claim. I do not think we should lynch me day 1 as 3/9 odds are low. I prefer a 50/50 or more and I'll be fine with my lynch.- Persivul
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The better odds argument doesn't fly. Remember, if you're really town angel, then yes, you have better chance of hitting scum as the game progresses (unless we're really good scum hunters).
BUT...the exact same thing can be said of the town lynch. If we assume you're town and lynch you one day before lylo, we've given up a lynch with a higher probability of hitting scum.
You're asking us to put the higher probability day solely in your hands, rather than in our collective hands.- Persivul
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If you're really angel, you should have kept it to yourself.
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ful_(role)Claiming Vengeful Townie is not advised (unless your actual role is Vengeful and Mafia-aligned). The effect of giving its faction a bonus kill is useless unless you yourself are worth lynching - otherwise it's obviously more profitable to lynch the player you would Vengefully kill while leaving you alive. Thus, Vengeful claims under duress are seen as grounds for a policy lynch.- Persivul
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: Lamees, Leodanny, Egix96rb (L-4)
: Malakitty, YyottaCat, PersivulLamees (L-4)
: Thor665Leodanny (L-6)
: NotNovaDVa (L-6)
: rbDunnstral (L-6)
: DVaNotNova (L-6)
: DunnstralYyottaCat (L-6)
Something_Smart, Auro@mod: is Angel REQUIRED to use the smite if lynched?Last edited by MiniDeathStar on Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.- Persivul
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Yep.In post 451, Lamees wrote:I already said in 419 that it applies to everyone. Only thing differing me from a VT is the smite part. Which I would prefer to use later. What you are arguing is that because I claimed, I could be scum that's lying.
Yeah, but no one else went and claimed for no good reason.Everyone claims to be town and could be scum lying.- Persivul
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Yep, that's why I asked about it.In post 472, Auro wrote:
Guys, this means we *can* use Lamees' day smite as a cop (barring immortals) since the ghost can't frame someone, right?In post 438, MiniDeathStar wrote:
Game Mechanics
If an angel is lynched, the smite resolves during twilight and before nightfall.
Ghosts cannot affect the outcome of smiting during the day.
Unfortunately, I'm doubting Lamees will ever consent to using it that way. - Persivul
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