Mini Normal 2050: Serial Killers - Game Over

[Mewtaph]

Interesting choice of game theme.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Having an SK in a mini normal is not within guidelines though, so that's definitely out.

[Mewtaph]

Hey everybody, it's been a while!

What do y'all think the chances are of there being a serial killer in a game called

Serial Killers

?

Oh and

VOTE: podoboq

cuz I can't decide how to pronounce their name

VOTE: lolwagons
Cause we should lolwagon lolwagons

Aren’t SKs not allowed?

I’m town so you must be scum to vote me

VOTE: Doughboy

Why engage in OMGUS this early? What are your thoughts on how someone should go about achieving their town win condition?

[Mewtaph]

Mewtaph, what draws you to that vote in particular as noteworthy? (given it's post #6 and I assume not a serious case of OMGUS)

Do you think a vote or post along those lines is inherently less useful even in RVS?

I think that, even for RVS standards, it's not really a productive line of thought to follow, even in jest or RVS.

I want to hear how they think town should approach achieving their win condition because I think it'll help me discern whether that vote was one of complexity (an actual reflexive action against votes on them) or on a less serious note. Their answer will offer me an idea of what to expect from them in future posts.

[Mewtaph]

I mean it's very clearly "on a less serious note," though I am on board with it not being productive. Additionally, how will having an idea of what to expect from him in future posts be helpful? It isn't hard for scum to fake townie consistency when you hand them an opportunity to construct their town persona right at the start of the game.

I don't quite see why

this

is a productive line of thought to follow.

Personally, I think that pursuing early thought processes is generally helpful.

I don't see how answering a question of that nature would really enable the mafia to build up a sense of townie consistency. While the mafia may choose to adopt a specific persona by selling "consistency" as a town tell (subtly, overtly, or waiting for someone else to do it for them), I think as the game progresses, so does their lack of it as they are forced more and more into fake scumhunting for players they know don't exist.

This line of thought is somewhat open to manipulation by mafia players, but I think it's important to inquire and receive expectations of other players' play.

Having an idea, even if brief, of how someone thinks, can ultimately make it much easier to see inconsistencies in one's thought process, or help explain why another player is thinking differently from what you are even if you are of the same alignment - and isn't that what the mafia is afraid of?

[Mewtaph]

I don't know, is it?

UNVOTE: Dannflor
VOTE: Mewtaph

Do you disagree with that line of thought? Why?

[Mewtaph]

LolWagons, why do you think it AI if an answer to a question seems inherently "obvious"? You're focusing on me agreeing with Dannflor that the post was in jest but refusing to answer how you think town should approach achieving their win condition - which is concerning because openly OMGUSing a player even as an RVS vote is something I would not call a go-to line of thought as someone with a town PM. What posts are town pinging you from Dannflor and why? What is your read on bristep123?

You've changed your mind on what the intent of the OMGUS sequence was based off of - was your intent to joke around with a previously played with player (Doughboy) in jest, or was your intent to get us out of RVS early? "I think it was pretty obviously a joke" (second para in 30) and "My intent was to get us out of RVS early and it seems to be working." (second para in 30) have contradictory meanings. I would like a stronger stance here.

You're saying that the intent of that post sequence with Doughboy was to exit RVS and you believe your effort in doing so to be effective. Now explain why you thought OMGUSing another player was the most productive/fruitful way to do that the time

when

you were making those posts, without hindsight in me inquiring on how you had town process in making 6 and 9 here.

VOTE: LolWagons

The way you approached the OMGUS in 6 and following post 9 which adds little to the game state, and I am still finding it difficult to discern how you think that those low effort posts could illicit conversation or serious votes. Are you suggesting that you intentionally acted scummy in an attempt to find mafia eager to jump on to a bandwagon early in the game.

What exactly do you dislike about my initial questioning here other than "giving the answers away before a response"? Right now, it looks like you are accusing me of "looking like they're doing something and "not logically thinking through to the conclusion Dannflor reached" without any real basis behind these particular conclusions. I would like it if you quoted specific posts or parts of posts coming from me that illicited this kind of response to you prior to 31 so the rest of the board can follow how you arrived at these thoughts. For example, "looking like they're doing something" suggests there is a deception there in "looking like they're doing something" vs "doing nothing in reality". Please point out where you feel this is present, again preferably before post 31.

[Mewtaph]

A reaction test, huh? Not a completely unreasonable train of thought. The shading and discrediting of my slot from being effectively listened for questioning two opening posts devoid of content is not appreciated in any case. While I could have done this before opening, please drop a game link for me to review where you pulled off something similar as town.

[Mewtaph]

Your trajectory 34 onwards reads town!genuine. Don't hate it.

[Mewtaph]

Okay, I can accept that reasoning.

UNVOTE: LolWagons

[Mewtaph]

Okay, I can accept that reasoning.

UNVOTE: LolWagons

Wasn’t the easy push you thought I’d be huh

No, and it's refreshing in a good way given the amount of times I've seen "easy pushes" as town that give no shits.

[Mewtaph]

I’m not sure anyone can meta me. I’m evolving my play each game as I adjust to this site.

Can you specify

how

you feel this statement is true? Do you think that:
1) You've seen players refer to outdated games that don't accurately reflect your current meta, or they incorrectly meta you in the first place
or 2) You are making yourself un-metable by making your play unpredictable as both town and scum

[Mewtaph]

The shading and discrediting of my slot from being effectively listened for questioning two opening posts devoid of content is not appreciated in any case.

Is the OMGUS the only reason you singled out lolwagons for this questioning? Why not Doughboy who also engaged in joking OMGUS? Why not any of the other RVS votes that could be deemed similarly "unproductive?"

No, that wasn't the only reason. I have had experience with reading "jokestery" start players and understanding how town/scum intent exists in players that approach. In that game, to be fair I was wrong on town and right on scum but I found it hard to differentiate the nuance between those different reads in which adjusting side by side especially with hindsight became clearer to me post game.

[Mewtaph]

I have little reason to oppose a Doughboy wagon at this moment and want to help support Dannflor in their pursuit here.

VOTE: Doughboy

[Mewtaph]

If the game was stagnant I would attempt to create content, but the game is active enough for a 9 player lobby on this site. I am just not interested in any of the content so far, nor does any of it really help me generate reads. No point shutting down activity that's helping you guys, even if I can't engage in it.

Can you explain why:
a) you aren't interested in the content
b) why it doesn't help you generate reads
c) why you can't engage with it

[Mewtaph]

Mewtaph's posts do not pass a Turing test.

VOTE: Mewtaph

Can you explain the reason behind this vote in a more digestible way?

[Mewtaph]

VOTE: podoboq
Speaking of L-2s, this would be considered one of them.

[Mewtaph]

You also ask "how someone should go about achieving their town win condition," instead of "how town should go about achieving their win condition," which just rubs me really wrong. If English isn't your first language, I apologize, and I'll admit that my read on you is probably miscolored. But if English is your first language, I don't see how these words, in this order, come off your keyboard. It feels extremely manicured, like somebody thinking how to present themselves as towny as possible.

I fail to see the difference? They say exactly the same thing.

[Mewtaph]

This is absolute gibberish, and I struggle to believe a human would read this and think it's OMGUS. And your follow up question is completely out of place and pointless. By asking someone "how does town play," you're asking somebody to spell out the blueprint for scum to follow in order to appear as town.

If someone tries to fabricate their scum play to meet supposed standards of town play in a way that doesn't suit them, I think it would become inherently obvious over time that how they're posting is false. LolWagon's "blueprint" for town play is probably different from mine, so I'm not really opening myself up to manipulation here either. I don't understand the criticisms of my thoughts other than "I just don't see how someone thinks like this" which I for one, don't understand as someone generating these thoughts, and my second thought is that it isn't a very productive angle to generate further discussion from.

[Mewtaph]

You also ask "how someone should go about achieving their town win condition," instead of "how town should go about achieving their win condition," which just rubs me really wrong. If English isn't your first language, I apologize, and I'll admit that my read on you is probably miscolored. But if English is your first language, I don't see how these words, in this order, come off your keyboard. It feels extremely manicured, like somebody thinking how to present themselves as towny as possible.

I fail to see the difference? They say exactly the same thing.

"How town should go about achieving their win condition" is how I would expect the average person to think to phrase that sentence. It rolls off the tongue better, and just feels more natural. However, someone could pick you apart and say "He asked how town should achieve their win condition, leaving himself out, implying he isn't town." It's unlikely anybody would argue that, and they'd be wrong to argue it, but people could stupidly read it as a scum slip.

"How someone should go about achieving their town win condition" has this funny implication that the question asker is town. It just looks very unnatural that your question is uncomfortably framed in the way that implies that you're town.

Sure, but in this case the implication is that the self-referential nature of that is asking for LolWagon's thoughts on how he would typically play town. That is what I'm more interested in rather than a disconnected answer of perhaps, "Town can play however they want". The framing of the question suggests that the idea of "playing to a town win condition" is different for every player and that is what I wanted to gauge from LolWagons here.

[Mewtaph]

If you're not prescribing a blueprint for how scum should act to appear as town, your giving them a pecking order of who to night kill in order to leave only people who will naturally read them as town.

By principle, this is true but imo time leaves no stone unturned. If scum want to boost themselves up to have a "good start", then they could probably do that anyway in a different way if they have any kind of general idea of how to look like town. If they are in fact relying on pocketing players to forward the game state, then that makes it somewhat more likely for them to have inconsistencies in their posting than if they didn't have an ulterior motive in mind.

[Mewtaph]

Asking "how does town achieve their win condition" is a pointless question, because it can't be answered in any satisfying way, and to attempt to answer it only serves to help scum.

The thing is, I'm not asking how does town achieve their win condition. I'm asking how

should

town achieve their win condition, and hence I'm seeking a more subjective answer. Their answer thus is more likely to tell more about their player and more importantly how play will commence for that specific player. If I asked something like, "How many hours does it take to get prodded", that wouldn't be a very useful question because the answer I'm going to get is 48 hours.

[Mewtaph]

Their answer thus is more likely to tell more about their player and more importantly how play will commence for that specific player.

But again, there is no satisfying answer to the question of "how should town achieve their win condition," because it depends on an uncountable number of factors that may not be present in a given game or even be in control of the player.

Town should achieve their win condition by not lolclaiming PR at L-1. But that's only one factor, and it's one that may not be relevant to a given player in a game, or even be in their control, because they might not reach L-1 until a claim is actually valuable. There's just no way to answer your question that is helpful for town, and asking it serves no pro-town purpose.

Well, okay. I disagree that an answer needs to be "satisfying" in some way to be useful. By nature of answering questions, it is easier to differentiate one player from another player from the beginning of the game where town has zero information. While yes, that is one way to answer the question, that would be abstractly boring and hence I asked it to a player who I would expect to receive "not a completely objective" answer from. Whether it is "complete" or "satisfying" in the mind of other players, I don't really think matters.

[Mewtaph]

That’s two L-2 OMGUS votes from Mewtaph now and we are on page 4.

Do you think there's an objectively better place to put my vote at this stage given who has been actively posting so far?

[Mewtaph]

That’s two L-2 OMGUS votes from Mewtaph now and we are on page 4.

Do you think there's an objectively better place to put my vote at this stage given who has been actively posting so far?

Oh it’s not really who it’s on that’s the issue here. It’s the timing.

What about the timing of my vote posts is bugging you here?

[Mewtaph]

Ok, so now what do you think it means for the future of this game?

[Mewtaph]

Well, now I see you're suggesting OMGUSing twice is scum-indicative, for when asked to elaborate, you referred back to the timing; when asked to elaborate on

that

, you referred back to my votes following when another player has voted me (essentially just saying OMGUS is scummy). Is there a more player-specifc reason why you're scum reading me?

[Mewtaph]

Feel free to feign interest the moment 4/9 players are willing to lolwagon me for bad reasons. You're going to end up short changed.

[Mewtaph]

Yeah, both things are incredibly taboo. I haven't played on here in a year and a half, and I remember lolhammers still happened. lolclaims are more common, and I don't think highly enough of Mewtaph to assume that they wouldn't do it.

Shit like this just straight up pisses me off. Don't be a dick.

[Mewtaph]

Feel free to feign interest the moment 4/9 players are willing to lolwagon me for bad reasons. You're going to end up short changed.

Oh, gross. I’ve been on to you since page 1. You can’t act like you haven’t been in my sights until the wagon lmfao

You definitely aren't interested in what I have to say. So don't expect cooperation from me if you're going to pop the old "I can't wait to see their thoughts so I can blow them out of the thread".

[Mewtaph]

Also Mewtaph, I still want to hear thoughts on podoboq + your vote on him

podoboq? Was waiting for the AI content after our initial exchange but the underhanded attack on player over play makes me difficult to make objective commentary wrt his alignment currently.

[Mewtaph]

So you’re just not going to address me anymore? I don’t feel like I’ve been particularly abrasive or stubborn.

Ok, sure. I'll go back and read it then come back to you with answers then.

[Mewtaph]

not sure that's 100% true, some read behavior rather than content. Good players (and I am not in any way claiming to be one) don't need walls of text to root out scum.

Townreading this.

Townreading a strategic discussion comment that is completely separate of the game, Podo?

Decent scum could have just stayed quiet and let them continue to spin out.

I can't follow this town read because bristep123's presence at the end of page 1/top of page 2 didn't feel like they were diffusing a spin out but rather sidelining it.

So I am kind of concerned that you could be offering a town read there without enough justification - now I could link this to a malicious intent for the sake of making a podopoq scum case but I'm not entirely convinced that an argument of that manner wouldn't just be overall convoluted and difficult to respond to at this stage.

I'm saying I could provide commentary on my thoughts on how you're pushing on my slot, but I don't think that it would be very useful or constructive (and inherently biased/forced).

I tried to respond to your concerns wrt being a robot, but your followup on that showed that you were just continuing off of your first conclusion, which is kind of reasonable but at from that point I don't see how I'm supposed to appropriately respond to further interactions regarding that.

[Mewtaph]

Well, now I see you're suggesting OMGUSing twice is scum-indicative, for when asked to elaborate, you referred back to the timing; when asked to elaborate on

that

, you referred back to my votes following when another player has voted me (essentially just saying OMGUS is scummy). Is there a more player-specifc reason why you're scum reading me?

OMGUSing twice on people who have players on their bandwagons within four pages is scummy. Yes. Player specifics do not matter. It shows a focus on lynching those that suspect you and those that are also vulnerable to a lynch which is literally the cookie cutter way to play as mafia.

Normally I wouldn’t really count my wagon in the two because it was the transition from RVS but your push on it came across as contrived, in addition to being opportunistic and OMGUS. The subsequent backing down felt unnatural as well.

I think just for the sake of calling OMGUS scummy for the sake of OMGUS being scummy, you are saying my focus on this game is to lynch those that suspect me and are vulnerable to a lynch. I think this is unapplicable in this case because my intent in voting you was clearly not to lynch at that stage but

could

have reached that point without a satisfying response or sequence of interactions - so that doesn't mean that it would have reached a vote with intent to lynch or that I was even self-focused on shooing votes away from me in the first place.

I disagree with the principle of OMGUS being inherently scum indicative, but the more important reason why I'm seeking out for more "player-related" reasons is that buzzwords can help strengthen an argument but probably shouldn't be the basis of one. The difference between me pressuring you on an OMGUS vote is going to be different from you trying to lynch me based on making OMGUS votes. If you aren't willing to go back to your previous thoughts re: scum!Mew in your original vote post on me, then there's nothing there I can realistically defend against.

[Mewtaph]

Also Mewtaph, I still want to hear thoughts on podoboq + your vote on him

podoboq? Was waiting for the AI content after our initial exchange but the underhanded attack on player over play makes me difficult to make objective commentary wrt his alignment currently.

Okay... This still doesn't really answer any of my questions on why exactly you are voting podoboq. If you must, remove yourself from the recent "attack on player over play" and go back to when you first made the vote. Why did you do that? And why then without any further elaboration?

PEDIT: I see you citing the townread on bristep123, is that the bulk of it?

I thought that their thoughts overall (on me and bristep123) leading up to the vote was a bit jarring in some sense so I was fine with voting there to see how they would respond wrt them looking towards themselves to explain the L-1/L-2 vote philosophy and unvote.

[Mewtaph]

I thought that their thoughts overall (on me and bristep123) leading up to the vote was a bit jarring in some sense so

I was fine with voting there to see how they would respond wrt them looking towards themselves to explain the L-1/L-2 vote philosophy and unvote.

This doesn't track with the timeline. You voted for podoboq

after

he'd already responded to me and explained his philosophy. Why are you saying that was one of your reasons for voting now?

They were looking towards themselves in that process (78 and 79), which is why it was a good point for me to vote them (80) imo. The vote may or may not have caught them surprise, but even if it didn't, having him respond to my vote allows me to potentially get a more tangible/real response as to why he was voting me and indicate that I am around for an exchanged sequence - my problem being that I'm not following my reasoning (83, 85), his reasoning being that he is finding my posting inorganic. But it is convoluted imo to push on somebody to understand their reasoning more when they themselves are voting me for having inorganic thoughts.

[Mewtaph]

I thought that their thoughts overall (on me and bristep123) leading up to the vote was a bit jarring in some sense so

I was fine with voting there to see how they would respond wrt them looking towards themselves to explain the L-1/L-2 vote philosophy and unvote.

This doesn't track with the timeline. You voted for podoboq

after

he'd already responded to me and explained his philosophy. Why are you saying that was one of your reasons for voting now?

They were looking towards themselves in that process (78 and 79), which is why it was a good point for me to vote them (80) imo. The vote may or may not have caught them surprise, but even if it didn't, having him respond to my vote allows me to potentially get a more tangible/real response as to why he was voting me and indicate that I am around for an exchanged sequence - my problem being that I'm not following my reasoning (83, 85), his reasoning being that he is finding my posting inorganic. But it is convoluted imo to push on somebody to understand their reasoning more when they themselves are voting me for having inorganic thoughts.

I'll edit this slightly because it seems hard to follow in its current form.

They were looking towards themselves in that process (78 and 79), which is why it was a good point for me to vote them (80). The vote may or may not have caught them surprise, but even if it didn't, having him respond to my vote allows me to potentially get a more tangible/real response as to why he was voting me.

He is also beginning to post so I'm indicating that I am around for an exchanged sequence. That sequence commences and we discuss thoughts; my problem is that I'm not following their reasoning (implied in 83, 85), and his problem is that he is finding my posting inorganic (his posts showing this and my response to this are clear).

It is convoluted, or unreasonable, in my opinion, to push on somebody to understand their reasoning more when they themselves are voting me for having inorganic thoughts. That's why the purpose of my vote wasn't to push podopoq at that point but to see if he would respond differently in any way to being placed at L-2.

[Mewtaph]

Is there any particular reason why you're willing to comment on the Gamma push here specifically over anything else that has happened in the game? Do you have any sort of stance towards me v LolWagons or me v podopoq?

[Mewtaph]

I understand you changed your mind about lolwagons not because I said his contributions were lacking but because he took offense to you seeing my point, but I do feel you were a little bit quick to change your mind about him.

This is not great either. I really don't like how Trekkie just sits on the sidelines this whole debate and casually encourages it. This post doesn't really say anything but plant a little bit of doubt about Podoboq without actually committing to anything.

Does seem as if I was sitting on the sidelines when you look at it the right way, however I really wasn't part of the discussion. All I was trying to do was make sense of the whole situation for myself as well as lolwagons and podoboq who I felt were like two dogs running in a circle chasing after each others tail.

???
Explain?

[Mewtaph]

I don't really like doing lists in general, but here's where I'm at currently...

-- Town --
{Dannflor, LolWagons, mbaki}
{Gamma, Trekkie}
{podopoq, ofrhz, Sheepsaysmeep}
-- Mafia --

[Mewtaph]

@Sheepsaysmeep: I think in general you are clearing people too easily and sometimes for the wrong reasons (eg. what makes Trekkie's "The discussion between my three town reads feels very townie while my two scum reads feels like they're participating in the discussion but aren't getting too involved and are letting my three town reads do most of the discussion." town indicative). I think it is a somewhat accurate sentiment to note that the game is mostly town controlled and to note that when considering reads, but including post counts in your read lists feels over the top to the point where it lacks utility (scum could just inflate their number of posts and you will be more receptive to town reading them).

@podopoq: Who do you want lynched D1 at this point? Your last post sequence spurt with LolWagons was somewhat directionless, so I kind of want to know where your head is at, outside of that interaction.

[Mewtaph]

That's actually supposed to be a scum case on me... mhm... ok. If you think saying "in this moment" is scum indicative then you're sticking your head so far out that you could reach your ass.

And if we're talking "exceptionally manufactured", or "clunky", that'd be your 10+ week saga against my posts. Let's take a look at this gem:

I don’t really like how Mewtaph comes in and just asks Trekkie to explain after Dann is clearly already pressuring him.

This is actually awful considering you're trying to push me and Trekkie at the same time. Then, optically you're suggesting that you are trying not to make your frame of reference around me being scum, which is a complete joke at this point. (I don't see it at all.)

So if you actually think that you are "not trying to make your frame of reference around mew-scum", then mate that's a massive obstacle to walk around considering that's complete bullshit lmao.

Liked the tenacity and wrote it down as town at the beginning but for ages now you've been wandering around like a lost puppy. I have no idea why your thoughts have been pretty empty, maybe at the start for a little bit, but even now, it seems like you're going nowhere new.

[Mewtaph]

You said last time to get a raincheck on your thoughts that I was going to get lynched, flip red and you were going to get NKed. Bold statement, except you're proving that you don't actually believe in it as much as that should 100% imply because at this point you aren't even the main effort pushing it forward, I've felt more pressure from Sheep than I have from you the entire game, low key.

For someone that suggests boldness, I am not getting any of it from you. Reconsideration, no. So then what the fuck are you pushing? Your Trekkie approach is easily fakeable. Your approach to me is sus as fuck. I definitely need more than this before I just completely leave it and move on.

It's sketchy as; I need a good explanation or you can take my vote and run with it straight into the lynching noose.

@Trekkie: How do you feel about how LolWagons has interacted with you?

[Mewtaph]

Mew,

what is your read on gamma?

Probably can get the lynch at any point if this play keeps up. If this is how Gamma plays town then there's not much there to even pick at or try to digest. It's been very barebones so far. The hope is that Gamma is unenthused and wouldn't stoop this low for a win, but scum play doesn't always need to be pretty or glamorous.

[Mewtaph]

Why is pod scum?

I 100% need more feedback loop there before I'm actually willing to circuit that towards town in any sense of confidence. I will say some of podopoq's certain posts have looked good, not going to specify

which

ones because if he's scum he'll just keep reproducing them. Overall, it's pretty nice but podopoq currently not making stances on a lot of people is definitely not someone I ever want to give a "check out and leave" without giving a good check. (Is it obvious I really want him to answer my question?) At the moment, podopoq is certainly lynchable to me. A bad post could push that into a harder push, a good post could push that to "passably lynchable", which is probably good enough to avoid getting death pushed by me today, especially considering some people have made some disappointing posts in the last 1-2 pages (ignoring that one of those pages contains a bunch of "can i get an extension" one sentence posts.)

[Mewtaph]

VOTE: Ofhrz

Is it odd the two subs are the two most suss slots right now?

I am considering pushing a lynch there and maybe even think it is the highest % chance of hitting scum today (especially the replacement of your specific choice)... but I don't think that it's a particularly engaging path to follow for most people, and sadly that's possibly the biggest reason I have to hold my vote there. As such I find it unlikely that everyone would even follow suit to a wagon of this nature's completion. Especially for D1 (and almost every day before lylo tbh), towns tend to get bored and mess things up because a wagon is not "stimulating" enough for them and that is more important to them sometimes rather than actually completing their win condition to their best ability, which "unfortunately" includes consideration of "boring" wagons. Making a wagon of this reasoning I would say fails 99% of the time if made at the beginning of a several week deadline because people simply get too bored or get distracted by something stupid along the way.

For example, bristep was scumming up the thread 24/7, dodged the thread whenever she needed to, and had empty thoughts while she promised the anticipation of depth (specifically first page, "I could never put my thoughts out of the thread into words!"... and then proceeds to show almost no reference to having thoughts outside of thread in future posts, and making bad empty posts after it). ofrhz is a very good lynch for that reason (bristep said they had thoughts or depth but never actually brought it) but you can't really expect to get popular points for pushing somewhere like that. I have a lot of dedicated detractors already looking to spring at me for any vote hop for being potentially "opportunistic" or "clunky" or some other bullshit so I plan on dealing with them first before shifting my vote around, which at times is at an extremely speedy rate (scum love pointing at it as being "scum indicative").

Also, you said you mostly skim through my posts, so if you read through this one at least, congrats.

[Mewtaph]

Pre-flip associations have just hit the thread by storm. Heavy weather ahead.

[Mewtaph]

You said last time to get a raincheck on your thoughts that I was going to get lynched, flip red and you were going to get NKed. Bold statement, except you're proving that you don't actually believe in it as much as that should 100% imply because at this point you aren't even the main effort pushing it forward, I've felt more pressure from Sheep than I have from you the entire game, low key.

For someone that suggests boldness, I am not getting any of it from you. Reconsideration, no. So then what the fuck are you pushing? Your Trekkie approach is easily fakeable. Your approach to me is sus as fuck. I definitely need more than this before I just completely leave it and move on.

It's sketchy as; I need a good explanation or you can take my vote and run with it straight into the lynching noose.

@Trekkie: How do you feel about how LolWagons has interacted with you?

That was on page 5... are you seriously implying what I said on page 5 is still what I currently believe?

And why leave out the part where I said that it was only page 5 and who knows what will change? Why frame it like I was being bold?

This is a clumsy push.

No, but your response isn't very good either.

[Mewtaph]

Do you want to address any of my points or just throw vague shade at me?

What about my above response isn’t good? What point of yours did I not address?

I have no idea how I'm supposed to adequately respond to posts like 441, 443 or 449.

To respond to things that I can address in some way:

I asked you what you thought the future of the game was to get you to set your read, and you decided to write it in stone with a prediction that I would flip scum and you would get NKed. That's bold, and not a misrep. That just screams of a relentless tunnel and I haven't gotten it from you which is why I thought it was uncharacteristic because your tone towards me over the past through days has maintained its sense of aggressiveness. So it makes no real sense when you say that you don't want to insulate yourself into the idea of me being scum but do so anyway. You said that things can change... but 432 and 433 indicate that you haven't progressed beyond me in reality.

So my question is, why did you feel the need to post

My thought is that if Trekkie is scum, then he went after me because I was on to someone. Obviously the most likely candidate would be Mew, but I don’t want to frame my whole reference around Mew-scum. I just don’t see scum-Trekkie taking on the task of pushing my slot unless there was something fairly large to be gained from it.

If you're riding out pre-flip associations (which is a deadly trap, ftr), then it makes not-much-sense to point out a pre-flip association and then say you "don't want to frame your whole reference around X", of which that X is integral to pointing out the pre-flip association.

[Mewtaph]

Do you want to address any of my points or just throw vague shade at me?

What about my above response isn’t good? What point of yours did I not address?

I have no idea how I'm supposed to adequately respond to posts like 441, 443 or 449.

To respond to things that I can address in some way:

I asked you what you thought the future of the game was to get you to set your read, and you decided to write it in stone with a prediction that I would flip scum and you would get NKed. That's bold, and not a misrep. That just screams of a relentless tunnel and I haven't gotten it from you which is why I thought it was uncharacteristic because your tone towards me over the past through days has maintained its sense of aggressiveness. So it makes no real sense when you say that you don't want to insulate yourself into the idea of me being scum but do so anyway. You said that things can change... but 432 and 433 indicate that you haven't progressed beyond me in reality.

So my question is, why did you feel the need to post

My thought is that if Trekkie is scum, then he went after me because I was on to someone. Obviously the most likely candidate would be Mew, but I don’t want to frame my whole reference around Mew-scum. I just don’t see scum-Trekkie taking on the task of pushing my slot unless there was something fairly large to be gained from it.

If you're riding out pre-flip associations (which is a deadly trap, ftr), then it makes not-much-sense to point out a pre-flip association and then say you "don't want to frame your whole reference around X", of which that X is integral to pointing out the pre-flip association.

So... you ask me about the future of the game and I’m supposed to assume you mean within the current day?
When someone asks me about what the future holds I typically go beyond the day. I think it was completely fair to interpret your question the way I did. And just because I said things can change doesn’t equate to me saying they would.

First of all, don’t lecture me on how to play the game, I’ve been playing off and on since 2010. I know what I’m doing. Secondly, I pretty clearly state that it is most likely you, but not definitely you. Meaning I’m keeping my mind open and trying not to fall into the very trap your accusing me of falling in to.

Heard.

[Mewtaph]

i also think that after seeing trekkie post these last 1-2 pages, with some room/time his alignment becomes really obvious down the line

meanwhile mew has popped in here and there but nothing he's said has really shown potential in making me budge at all

tldr mew is my preferred lynch by quite a bit

thoughts?

Nope. You've been tunneling me since you replaced in. You've admitted on one occasion that you've only skim read the game.

[Mewtaph]

he's been under heavy heat for half of d1 now and earlier i thought he was basically guaranteed as today's lynch and we were kinda dragging it out before an inevitable hammer

he's unmoved and doeesnt seem to give a fuck and i think overall his later half of d1 has been a good look

mew meanwhile literally just slowly started to lay lower lower and fade alognside his wagon

The fuck? Oh please, I've had 3 votes on me and got L-1'd in the early pages. Fuck off if you think I'm "laying low" if I don't post for 48 hours one time. Nahhhhh.

[Mewtaph]

im not confbiased right

Eye of the beholder, clearly.

[Mewtaph]

you were like at least half the posts for the start of the game

now youre just popping in every once in a while to defend yourself and i forgot you existed for a while

I'm not just defending myself, but ok. You can keep pushing on me if you want, I won't just die without screaming.

[Mewtaph]

you were like at least half the posts for the start of the game

now youre just popping in every once in a while to defend yourself and i forgot you existed for a while

I'm not just defending myself, but ok. You can keep pushing on me if you want, I won't just die without screaming.

youve been popping in every once in a while to respond to wolfreads on you

i dont remember the last time i saw solving from you

Try the last page?

[Mewtaph]

Try the last page?

Page 18, rather.

[Mewtaph]

if trekkie flips town thats going to be super demoralizing for me on multiple levels

Well, I'm pretty sure you can at least say a name that isn't me. You're not exactly giving me options here.

[Mewtaph]

Your slot doesn't seem to like Gamma a lot overall, Sheep. But your slot has never pushed Gamma. I wonder if that's because Gamma is an easy level mislynch you want to hold onto for future days.

[Mewtaph]

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep
Sheep me.

[Mewtaph]

Sheep sought for town cred so incredibly bad, that it physically hurt. Please punish this poorly executed scum play.

[Mewtaph]

maybe because i have a fake tunnel on somebody I think I can easily ML

Fixed.

[Mewtaph]

can you give me a gut feel from your pov of whether you think the wagon on you is generally being led by scum or villager -driven

"can you give me a reason to push the people I'm already pushing. ok, thanks, now I can blame you after I ML"

[Mewtaph]

VOTE: sheep

[Mewtaph]

Town: dannflor, podoboq

Mixed: gamma emerald, mbaki

Null: ofrhz, sheepsaysmeep

Scum: lolwagons, mewtaph

noone is listening to your reads, delete this, goodbye

[Mewtaph]

mew's push back on me is terrible and incredibly weakly surface level

it's either snap omgus reaction from a villa or wolf trying to find a push that looks like theyre doing something/doing ok against the push on them and it's like nowhere near natural enough to be the first?

You are scum. You are going to grab me as an early lynch. Town will still think that you're town.

Meanwhile, you are scum.

Did I explain your role PM correctly?

[Mewtaph]

mew

if you really want me lynched at some point

put your actual reasons for w reading me into one post

i dare you

Posturing.

[Mewtaph]

your tone literally changed as soon as dannflor posts. lol

[Mewtaph]

Spoiler: Before Dannflor posts

i also think that after seeing trekkie post these last 1-2 pages, with some room/time his alignment becomes really obvious down the line

meanwhile mew has popped in here and there but nothing he's said has really shown potential in making me budge at all

tldr mew is my preferred lynch by quite a bit

thoughts?

he's been under heavy heat for half of d1 now and earlier i thought he was basically guaranteed as today's lynch and we were kinda dragging it out before an inevitable hammer

he's unmoved and doeesnt seem to give a fuck and i think overall his later half of d1 has been a good look

mew meanwhile literally just slowly started to lay lower lower and fade alognside his wagon

im not confbiased right

you were like at least half the posts for the start of the game

now youre just popping in every once in a while to defend yourself and i forgot you existed for a while

you were like at least half the posts for the start of the game

now youre just popping in every once in a while to defend yourself and i forgot you existed for a while

I'm not just defending myself, but ok. You can keep pushing on me if you want, I won't just die without screaming.

youve been popping in every once in a while to respond to wolfreads on you

i dont remember the last time i saw solving from you

im either onto a really accurate tunnel or confbiased and looking stupid but i think it's the first

im not ever voting trekkie with mew alive

im not w reading mew off of activity

i think he's more active lurkign and posting more to stay alive

if the team is gamma/mew i a m a f u c k i n g g o d

maybe because i have much stronger w reads

mew's push back on me is terrible and incredibly weakly surface level

it's either snap omgus reaction from a villa or wolf trying to find a push that looks like theyre doing something/doing ok against the push on them and it's like nowhere near natural enough to be the first?

mew has never really interacted wiht trekkie or tried to sort them (i just command f'ed the iso)

mew has consistently just kept trekkie in the null pile

evne whne trekkie has been at l1 for so long mew doesnt give a fuck about sorting trekkie at all theyre just both doing their own thing and mew is kinda ignoring him while posting

yeah trekkie looks really really bad wrt associations with mew wtf

mew isnt even legitily trying to push me rn

he's literally jsut spending his time sitting in thread while repeating "you are scum you are scum you are scum"


which is the textbook wolf trying to look like they have a genuine tunnel

forget what i said earlier btw

im staying on mew since theres time before deadline but if it's clear that that isnt happening im finna just hammer trekkie

Spoiler: After Dannflor posts

mew

if you really want me lynched at some point

put your actual reasons for w reading me into one post

i dare you

Posturing.

just do it if this is a legit tunnel

youve been yelling that im wolf for pages now it shouldnt be hard at all

@dann @lolwagons im iffy on gamma/mbaki rn and have been for a while; what are your thoughts on those slots

Scum plz lynch this

[Mewtaph]

mbaki is town. There are things this slot has done that scum never ever does. I can quote specific examples later.

Gamma is also town and I actually think scum reads on this slot are a little sus. If he's scum, hats off to him, but I sincerely doubt it and I've explained why already. Scum, generally, need a reason to do the things they do. He has no reason to do the things he's done and I refuse to believe he's that bad of a scum player, even if his town play is nothing to write home about.

The fact that four pages have been generated once the pressure started ramping up on Mewtaph and Trekkie together means something. Scum team caught on day 1? It's still presumptuous, but I believe there is at least one scum somewhere here.

No it doesn't. LolWagons anger spurted, Trekkie popped in, and then sheep pops in only after Trekkie is at L-1 to rack up all the town cred. Check the narrative.

[Mewtaph]

@sheep: you are scum, sorry. scum case doesn't come because it's so obvious 4 votes aren't coming with me. + detractors in you, LolWagons and more xxx

@dannflor: He's been accusing me of screaming scum in every post (which I have), but then he does the exact same thing with me. then as soon as you appear he shifts his tone and after like 30 posts of doing the same thing he suddenly changes and says "ok, case me in one post, let's see how you do now"

[Mewtaph]

I know I’ve been on Mews case but I’m over it. Trekkie disappearing is the final straw. I don’t need to wait for his claim.

UNVOTE: Mewtaph
VOTE: Vote Trekkie

Hammer. Done with this shit.

If this flips town I might just death tunnel sheep.

[Mewtaph]

I know I’ve been on Mews case but I’m over it. Trekkie disappearing is the final straw. I don’t need to wait for his claim.

UNVOTE: Mewtaph
VOTE: Vote Trekkie

Hammer. Done with this shit.

If this flips town I might just death tunnel sheep.

I am serious btw.

[Mewtaph]

lol if what youre doing rn isnt a death tunnel

lol, and what you're doing isn't either? please.

[Mewtaph]

@sheep: you are scum, sorry. scum case doesn't come because it's so obvious 4 votes aren't coming with me. + detractors in you, LolWagons and more xxx

[Mewtaph]

and yeah im admittedly tunneling you

but in contrast your tunnel is clearly just fake

Ok, try explaining that after tonight.

[Mewtaph]

Let's check your ISO for votes... oh! Just one.

Good luck.

[Mewtaph]

Spoiler: Posts from sheep making direct jabs at me for quick reference

p1 i dont really like mewtaph

it feels like theyre way overcomplicating over one rvs vote and tryign to create an im really solvy and posting a lot feeling but it feels forced


dannflor feels sort of villagery and kinda mirrors my thoguhts on mewtaph's equestion

the way lolwagons pushes back against mewtaph page 2 is really villagery


also mew just feels generally like trying to present themself and really caring about hwo their posts are read

mew's posting/questions are terrible to top of page 5 so far

im just strugglign to see that this is ever genuine solving rather than trying too hard to look like a really active solver

meh lolwagons iso is actually decent; idrk how i missed so much of his posting

i kinda like his early interaction with mewtaph it feels like how i react to getting a scumread in thread most of the time as villager

i also think that after seeing trekkie post these last 1-2 pages, with some room/time his alignment becomes really obvious down the line

meanwhile mew has popped in here and there but nothing he's said has really shown potential in making me budge at all

tldr mew is my preferred lynch by quite a bit

thoughts?

you were like at least half the posts for the start of the game

now youre just popping in every once in a while to defend yourself and i forgot you existed for a while

I'm not just defending myself, but ok. You can keep pushing on me if you want, I won't just die without screaming.

youve been popping in every once in a while to respond to wolfreads on you

i dont remember the last time i saw solving from you

im either onto a really accurate tunnel or confbiased and looking stupid but i think it's the first

im not w reading mew off of activity

i think he's more active lurkign and posting more to stay alive

mew's push back on me is terrible and incredibly weakly surface level

it's either snap omgus reaction from a villa or wolf trying to find a push that looks like theyre doing something/doing ok against the push on them and it's like nowhere near natural enough to be the first?

243 - Overcomplicating an RVS vote
243 - "Really solvy and posting a lot of feeling but forced"
245 - TR on LolWagons
245 - Continued shade of "trying to present themself" and "really caring how their posts are read".
259 - "I'm struggling to see that this is ever genuine solving", more shade and "trying too hard to look like an active solver"

380 - TR on LolWagons, "oh how did I miss so much of his posting?" reads fake, TRed him in 245 and if he's focusing on my slot to the extent that he is then he would have definitely noticed LolWagons posting
475 - More shade, "popped in here and there" and "but nothing he's said has really shown potential in making me budge at all".
475 - "tl;dr - mew is my preferred lynch" Sheep has reiterated this when a very large portion of his posts are dedicated to saying my posting is fake

482 - "you were like at least half the posts for the start of the game // now youre just popping in every once in a while to defend yourself and i forgot you existed for a while" tries to make activity scum indicative. suggests that i "only defend myself", again softballing the onus on me to convince "sheep and the town" that I'm not scum when the original infliction of the shade originated from sheep themselves.
488 - "youve been popping in every once in a while to respond to wolfreads on you // i dont remember the last time i saw solving from you" this is forced and doesn't sound like a townie consciously knowing they are in a tunnel and wanting to get the other person lynched badly, instead he constantly refers that the onus is on me to convince him that I am town. But let's look at the qualifiers if Sheep was actually giving me a fighting chance here; "youve been popping in every once in a while to respond to wolfreads on you" - this is circular, to respond to him constantly shading my slot of overcomplicating my posts that would in turn equate to "responding to wolfreads on me". meanwhile, "i dont remember the last time i saw solving from you" is just such a crafted sentence, it suggests that I've never solved this game while staying vague and unspecific - "i dont remember it" is crafted specifically because Sheep's entire gameplay revolves around me being scum
490 - town self referential language - "im either onto a really accurate tunnel" - suggests that he is a townie consciously in a tunnel, but his posts don't suggest that this is the case, read above on 488. "or confbiased and looking stupid" - this again, turns the onus on me to convince "sheep and the town" when in reality it's just "sheep" and they are trying to essentially make mountains out of mound hills.
498 - "im not w reading mew off of activity" - in 488 "youve been popping in every once in a while" is an activity read. then "i think he's more active lurkign" is again, an activity read. "posting more to stay alive" again puts the onus on me to convince "sheep and the town" that I am town, but in reality, it's just "sheep" - and "sheep" and "town" aren't mutually exclusive. Sheep accuses me of "defending myself from wolf reads" when they are doing the exact same thing to me, making the point next to moot
522 - calling my pushback "terrible and incredibly weakly surface level" also turns the onus back on me again to convince sheep that I am town
522 - blatant role calling for someone strongly "against role claims and role directing", second of all "snap omgus reaction" is bullshit considering that if it was "snap omgus" then I would have voted you when you first accused me of being forced. "wolf trying to find a push that looks like theyre doing something/doing ok against the push on them" is bullshit, sheep forced the onus on me to begin with, so I'm not "trying to find a push" by pushing back sheeps' bullshit. second, "wolf doing ok against the push on them" doesn't even sound like it's scum indicative lmao, "wolf" and "doing ok against the push on them" aren't even related, so you might want to clarify that if you're actually saying that's a valid reason to scumread me.

--

General notes:
- Their read was forced onto me from the beginning of their ISO
- Really bad tonal shifts and scummy pocket-like approaches when referring/talking to LolWagons and Dannflor and probably anyone else they plan on pocketing and not MLing
- Holds way too strongly onto their biggest scum read even when directly questioned and then drops that strength in a very suspicious way (this is one of the biggest points against sheep being scum)
- There are also suspicious moments like 411 => 428 that "blends" me (their strongest scumread) with other lesser scumreads. in addition, the 17 post difference between these read lists read as their scum partner being too low on the first list that they could be pressed on it - for this note that podopoq and ofrhz move up in 428.
- Comes to point out Trekkie was new!town and then drop it as soon as LolWagons talked about very clear cut (even if wrong) Trekkie-mew scum association pings - if you think someone is derpy town and they are at L-1, a town does NOT just drop a new!town read just like that (this is also another big point why sheep is scum)
- Self referential "super accurate tunnel" or "conf bias" - firstly, there is no reason to say that you are super accurate and that your reads matter more than anyone else's in the playerlist, secondly, "conf bias" is just self referential that you are town and discredits the fact that you've been blatantly holding onto a scum read on me for the entire game

[Mewtaph]

VOTE: mew
I want to vote in Trekkie/Mew but I want pod to come back before we end the day so I’m voting the dark horse wagon

I'd say sheep is the actual dark horse wagon but overall this vote is really lazy. Limiting yourself is two options just says you want to be sheep general consensus because you gave up on giving the game state a harder look. Is this where you're at nowadays?

[Mewtaph]

I actually have a wack scum theory on someone else but I'd need the thought of sheep being town linger in my mind for a long while for me to genuinely consider it to the point of pushing it. I could air it though?

[Mewtaph]

I actually have a wack scum theory on someone else but I'd need the thought of sheep being town linger in my mind for a long while for me to genuinely consider it to the point of pushing it. I could air it though?

Actually... I'll just shut up on this. I think if they are really scum then I'll keep seeing the same thing. Just gotta keep reminding myself it's a possibility.

[Mewtaph]

lol mews case

theres like 1 thing in your tldr that i might consider ai

next

[Mewtaph]

This reads like legitimately frustrated member of town, or possibly pegged scum, furious that town guessed their scum team perfectly early.

I think frustrated town is significantly more likely, just because I think finding the scum team is harder than that.

While I'm on this post, though. Hey Mewtaph, this post sucks. bristep's posts were garbage, yeah, but he also replaced out, probably because he was too lazy to play the game. ofrhz is playing the game. Using a lazy lurker who never played the game as justification to vote a slot that's actually playing the game and towning it up is horrible play. You didn't have anything to say about ofrhz himself, and only complained about the previous player's absence and AtE out your ass. Nice tantrum. Play better.

You insist, along with every other post you make regarding me, that other players need to "play the game" the way a "town" is supposed to play. This post wasn't even remotely directed or related to you and you felt like it was the best thing you make your longest post on. But hey, you know. Play better.

Guess what. It's forum mafia. "Playing the game" isn't nearly as town indicative as you think it is.

Your most recent chain of posts call almost every other viable wagon town, so then who do you think is scum outside of Trekkie? Or does it just suddenly stop over an empty abyss after a single name then after that everyone else can get a free town read?

[Mewtaph]

@sheep: you are scum, sorry. scum case doesn't come because it's so obvious 4 votes aren't coming with me. + detractors in you, LolWagons and more xxx

Gross

I brought the scum case and noone's voting with me. Am I wrong? I'll air it and I'm not expecting votes to come with me. A very clear cut and simple break down of why I can't get someone I strongly scum read lynched. Your dismissive tone does nothing but back up my read of the game state.

[Mewtaph]

Your dismissive tone does nothing but back up my read of the game state.

gamestate: basically solved with one wolf flailing and only half given up trying to make some last ditch attempts

tldr

Uh huh. Keep mumbling, scum.

[Mewtaph]

Lmao, you suddenly have this stream of thoughts when I am the only one in the thread? Random af.

[Mewtaph]

last game when trekkie was wolf, he thought he was going to be lynched anyway and basically gave up

intent to hammer before i can change my mind again if no one has any reason to have a problem with that

I have a problem with that, we have over 4 days and 8 hours to decide on a lynch and you are saying you're willing to cut that time off because you don't want to think about the game state. Ok then

[Mewtaph]

VOTE: trekkie

zzz glgl

regardless of alignment promise me mewtaph dies tmr but if this flips v disclaimer that my motivation to play will heavily drop

Um, no fuck off. If this flips village you can go 100% tomorrow

[Mewtaph]

last game when trekkie was wolf, he thought he was going to be lynched anyway and basically gave up

You better hope this is right

[Mewtaph]

VOTE: trekkie

zzz glgl

regardless of alignment promise me mewtaph dies tmr but if this flips v disclaimer that my motivation to play will heavily drop

This hammer is actually really dissonant btw. We have over 4 days and 8 hours left on the deadline, that they could've used to push their strongest scum read (me) over someone they're having convenient thought dissonance in the thread with of being town and not completely sure.

[Mewtaph]

if mew were somehow town here this play would be disgusting on multiple levels

not that i think this is really a possibility but if all a villager is going to do is tunnel me in thread like this theyre being incredibly antitown and essentially deserve to be lynched

I am not tunneling you? It's not even like you responded to my elaborated thoughts on me, you just discredited and left it, so it's not my fault if you want to talk about "content/reason deficiency" if every other post you are calling for my lynch.

[Mewtaph]

Your most recent chain of posts call almost every other viable wagon town, so then who do you think is scum outside of Trekkie? Or does it just suddenly stop over an empty abyss after a single name then after that everyone else can get a free town read?

Hey podo. You should actually answer this.

[Mewtaph]

See y'all tomorrow. There are some of you I could do without.

[Mewtaph]

Your most recent chain of posts call almost every other viable wagon town, so then who do you think is scum outside of Trekkie? Or does it just suddenly stop over an empty abyss after a single name then after that everyone else can get a free town read?

Hey podo. You should actually answer this.

Wasn't paying attention.

Right now, I buy that you and Trekkie are the scum team.

I'm in on LolWagons and Dannflor as definite town.

Of the remaining players, right now most scum to most town is probably orfhz > Gamma > sheep > mbaki.

But again, I think they're all town.

OK, thank you for your answer. Good luck on the flip.

[Mewtaph]

VT ^-^

[Mewtaph]

Gg all.