Open 738: Purgatory | LA FIN

[volxen]

Did you know?

Lions and tigers can crossbreed to create a species known as Ligers..

Votecount 1.03

the worst (3) - LabRat01, Keyser Soze, Irrelephant

Keyser Söze (2) - Lefty, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde
Carmen (1) - LabRat01,
Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde (1) - Carmen
LabRat01 (1) - the worst
Not Voting - Creature, volxen,

Time till end of hell phase 1: (expired on 2018-11-15 17:00:00)

I'm pretty sure there is at least one scum among [TW, Rat, Keyser, and Rel]. I don't think it's that likely that TW, as town, would get up to L-2 so quickly on the second day of day one with no scum involvement.

I don't think TW and Rat are scum together, with them cross voting each other, and with TW's detailed casing of Rat. It seems really unnecessary for them to try to mutually distance themselves and start wagons against each other this early on day one if they are scumbuddies.

I do wish TW would case Keyser to the same degree that he has cased Rat, but he seems to want to hold back on this for some reason.

Out of [TW, Rat], Rat definitely has far more scum equity in my opinion. TW's casing of Rat felt genuine, whereas Rat's interactions with others came off as scummy to me. For example:

wanna check it for me?

Nah, it's not there.

VOTE: Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

aww, that's a shame VOTE: carmen
I'm p sure some form of it should be there though, cuz the bracket thingy is written in my RC
wanna check it again? or are you lying in order for someone to notice this "contradiction" and derp you as town?

ugh, I was talking about the town RC if it wasn't obvious

I was re-reading the thread and noticed that my post could be understood as a disgusting joke
that vote was half-serious, it was not pure RvS, so read it as so

and c'mon, someone write sth
it's boring being here alone

I don't think Rat really had a good reason for "seriously" voting Carmen here, and she did say that the vote was "half-serious".

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way

OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.

Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

Why did Rat make such a big deal about this? All TW did was ask Lefty what he thought of Keyser's entrance -- I don't see how that's really LAMIST, which is what Rat seems to be implying here. Yes everyone should be sorting players and coming up with their own reads, but there is nothing wrong with asking player X what they think about player Y, as long as you are still sorting everyone else in addition to that. Rat seems to be suggesting that TW want's other people to sort Keyser for him so he doesn't have to do the work of sorting Keyser himself, which I don't think is accurate at all. She is also suggesting here that TW's motivation in asking the question was to appear LAMIST, as opposed to him actually wanting to know what Lefty thought of Keyser's entrance.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.

Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

Again, here Rat is criticizing someone for asking a question regarding Keyser. I don't think her criticism of Lefty was really warranted here -- he asks a question about Keyser, and she insinuates that his reason for asking the question was to appear like he was doing something, as opposed to it being a question he genuinely wanted answered. In other words, she is again suggesting that the motivation behind the question was to purposefully appear LAMIST, as opposed to it just being a question that Lefty wanted answered. It's just odd that on two different occasions, two different people ask a question about Keyser, and Rat attacks (unreasonably IMO) both TW and Lefty for asking their respective questions about Keyser. I would think town!Rat would understand that this game isn't just about everyone forming their own reads in isolation and then presenting their readslist to the rest of the group, but it's largely a game that involves interacting with everyone else to understand their motivations, which includes asking players questions such as, "what did you think about X from player Y?" The fact that Rat's initial reaction to both questions about Keyser was to immediately label them as attempts to be LAMIST rather than as genuine questions that were asked to gather information to help gamesolve, seems much more likely to come from scum than town.

VOTE: LabRat01

[volxen]

actually
VOTE: Creature

lynch this today for 11/10 guaranteed scumflip
send Dr. J to heaven tomorrow

if Lab/Keyser are town they can prove it

Why do you think Creature is scum, and why is he a better lynch than Rat?

[volxen]

@volxen putting associations, VCA and scum partner theories aside, are you t/reading the worst independently?

I don't feel comfortable giving TW a townread yet, no. I do think he made a good case against Rat, especially in post 297, and I do find Rat to have the most scum equity at the moment, but I'm not ready to write off TW as town yet either.

Where I am currently at is I find Dr. J to be the most towny player and Rat to be the most scummy player. I'm still kind of unsure on everyone else.

@Keyser, I am starting to get concerned that if Rat is scum, you could be one of her partners. As I pointed out earlier, it was just odd how quick she was to attack two different people for asking, in my opinion, completely legitimate questions about your slot. If she is scum it's possible that she is simply buddying/defending town!Keyser, but the way she wanted to shut down both questions about Keyser's slot could be indicative of SvS interactions. Keyser, if Rat is scum, why is TW more likely to be one of her partners than you?

But in any case, do you really think TW would gambit as scum and try to get his one of his scumbuddies sent to hell on day one? I would consider that quite a risky gambit because if he does that, then the only way he could win as scum is if both he and his remaining scumbuddy get sent to Heaven. So unless he's convinced that both he and his other scumbuddy could get a lot of towncredit for busing Rat, it seems like quite a risky play to open on day one by busing one of his partners in a game mode that, in my opinion, heavily discourages busing.

[volxen]

You think scum-labrat is chainsaw defending scum-me on PAGE ONE against TWO PLAYERS?

I don't think it's too far-fetched that scum!Rat would chainsaw defend one of her scumbuddies against two players. And her two posts where she attacked both TW and Lefty for asking a question about your slot were on pages three and four, not on page one:

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way
OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.
Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

This was at the bottom of page three.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.
Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

And this was as the top of page four.

And both posts were written within seven minutes of each other, which makes it even more odd.

[volxen]

Out of [TW, Rat], Rat definitely has far more scum equity in my opinion. TW's casing of Rat felt genuine, whereas Rat's interactions with others came off as scummy to me. For example:
[quote="In post 307, volxen]

wanna check it for me?

Nah, it's not there.

VOTE: Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

aww, that's a shame VOTE: carmen
I'm p sure some form of it should be there though, cuz the bracket thingy is written in my RC
wanna check it again? or are you lying in order for someone to notice this "contradiction" and derp you as town?

ugh, I was talking about the town RC if it wasn't obvious

I was re-reading the thread and noticed that my post could be understood as a disgusting joke
that vote was half-serious, it was not pure RvS, so read it as so

and c'mon, someone write sth
it's boring being here alone

I don't think Rat really had a good reason for "seriously" voting Carmen here, and she did say that the vote was "half-serious".

First off, volx seems to have read the thread till duck’s posts, so he should have also been aware of the whole conversation between me and korina. I don’t feel like going all over it again and this argument is

exactly

the same one I’ve been arguing with Korina about.

If he does fully understand why I pushed Carmen, I find it off that he’d find it important enough to mention here.
and if he disagreed to my answers to Korina’s pushes, he should have quoted those posts, not this one.

Him not doing that and including the exact same reasoning kinda feels like he made the argument just “to make the read look more townie/impressive” and doesn’t actually care to think about it seriously

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way

OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.

Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

Why did Rat make such a big deal about this? All TW did was ask Lefty what he thought of Keyser's entrance -- I don't see how that's really LAMIST, which is what Rat seems to be implying here.
Yes everyone should be sorting players and coming up with their own reads, but there is nothing wrong with asking player X what they think about player Y, as long as you are still sorting everyone else in addition to that.
Rat seems to be suggesting that TW wants other people to sort Keyser for him so he doesn't have to do the work of sorting Keyser himself, which I don't think is accurate at all.
She is also suggesting here that TW's motivation in asking the question was to appear LAMIST, as opposed to him actually wanting to know what Lefty thought of Keyser's entrance.

This one is actually fair, except the “why did rat make such a big deal of this?” part.
This is nearly the same thing as in the last part of the quote, but it’s more visible in the quote there, so just read it there, but it feels kinda fake to me that a player who’s capable of writing an elaborate analysis like this one would base his reads on reasons that are just so obviously wrong.

And the way he defended TW was funny imo. Prob too daring to be SvS, but I don’t think I can say anything more about that

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.

Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

Again, here Rat is criticizing someone for asking a question regarding Keyser. I don't think her criticism of Lefty was really warranted here -- he asks a question about Keyser, and she insinuates that his reason for asking the question was to appear like he was doing something, as opposed to it being a question he genuinely wanted answered. In other words, she is again suggesting that the motivation behind the question was to purposefully appear LAMIST, as opposed to it just being a question that Lefty wanted answered.
It's just odd that on two different occasions, two different people ask a question about Keyser, and Rat attacks (unreasonably IMO) both TW and Lefty for asking their respective questions about Keyser.

Yes, I think Lefty’s post was lamist. I don’t think it’s necessarily scum indicative though, because awkwardness and not knowing what to write early in the game is not really scummy. Both town and scum can feel that way and even though his question/post wasn’t sincere imo, both alignments could have had their reasons for doing it.
The read was kind of a push, but it was also a suggestion to do sth else, because even if they’re town, their motivation isn’t difficult to notice and it’s gonna get them lynched if they keep doing that for a long time.

I would think town!Rat would understand that this game isn't just about everyone forming their own reads in isolation and then presenting their readslist to the rest of the group, but it's largely a game that involves interacting with everyone else to understand their motivations, which includes asking players questions such as, "what did you think about X from player Y?" The fact that Rat's initial reaction to both questions about Keyser was to immediately label them as attempts to be LAMIST rather than as genuine questions that were asked to gather information to help gamesolve, seems much more likely to come from scum than town.

VOTE: LabRat01

Here he pushes me for pushing others instead of asking for their motivations, which I find funny coming from someone with such a high game-count.
Even regardless of how many games he played, I find it hard to believe that a player who’s capable of writing such an elaborate analysis of my posts would be unaware that “pushing people” “allows you to read them better” and progresses the game, which is necessary at any point of the game.
Like, c’mon, he did play a lot of games on the site so he should have realized that if people ask questions, they’re most likely gonna get calm, composed answers, which aren’t really gonna help you do anything. Of course some people might just not like pushing others without a reason, but it doesn’t mean others can’t do that and everyone who pushes people early is scum.

Like, I really don’t want to believe that he’s being serious here. Him pushing me for that feels like he was just forcing himself to find a looong, non-sheepy reason for me being scum, without actually caring if it actually makes sense or not.
This post is long and I’ll give him credit for saying that the reasons behind my pushes were bad (even though they weren't), but the main part of it is just terribly empty.

And I don’t like how he disappeared right after writing that. Except the short VCA reasoning and TR on duck, he hasn’t done anything to progress the game, not even asking questions which he was pushing me for.
That’s just incredibly lazy

P.Edit…
Which just changed, so ignore that part.

If you are town, you are really misunderstanding why I am scumreading you -- or you are deliberately trying to misrepresent me if you are scum. I am not against aggressively pressuring and pushing people. I do it myself all the time, and I have even put someone at L-1 on page one of a newbie game as town (see: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77453) precisely because I wanted to pressure that person. The last thing I am against is pressuring people to see how they react.

No, my problem is that you tried to

shut down/discourage

legitimate questions from both TW and Lefty, both of which were questions about Keyser's slot. In your post you seem to be setting up this false dichotomy where a choice has to be made between questioning someone vs pressuring someone. Why does it have to be either or? You can certainly ask people legitimate questions while simultaneously pressuring them. You want to push TW and Lefty to see how they react? Fine, but you shouldn't be trying to shut down and discourage the legitimate questions they asked about Keyser's slot.

THAT

is what I have a problem with -- you could have pressured Lefty and TW without trying to shutdown their questions about Keyser.

I'm struggling to see the town motivation in trying to shutdown both of their respective questions about Keyser. I mean, if TW and Lefty are both town, think about it from their perspective. If they are both town, and they find one another to be townie, doesn't it make sense for them to talk to one another about Keyser, especially if they are both trying to get an accurate read on Keyser? I mean this is a team game after all, so it makes sense to discuss your reads and other slots with people you find to be towny. So they ask legitimate questions of each other about Keyser's slot, and then you come along and within seven minutes, write two back-to-back posts where you basically call both of them LAMIST, and tell both of them that they are wasting time by asking each other questions about Keyser's slot. But why call it a waste of time -- why assume the questions they were asking each other wouldn't help both of them get a better read on Keyser? Because if getting answers to their questions would help them to better sort Keyser, then it would be a pretty good usage of time, no?

Again the problem isn't that you were aggressive towards TW and Lefty, it's that you tried to "redirect" them away from talking about Keyser and questioning each other about Keyser, when I don't believe you had a legitimate reason for doing so. So yes, for now I am quite skeptical of your motivations.

[volxen]

@mod, the VC is incorrect. For example I voted for LabRat in this post:

Did you know?

Lions and tigers can crossbreed to create a species known as Ligers..

Votecount 1.03

the worst (3) - LabRat01, Keyser Soze, Irrelephant

Keyser Söze (2) - Lefty, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde
Carmen (1) - LabRat01,
Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde (1) - Carmen
LabRat01 (1) - the worst
Not Voting - Creature, volxen,

Time till end of hell phase 1: (expired on 2018-11-15 17:00:00)

I'm pretty sure there is at least one scum among [TW, Rat, Keyser, and Rel]. I don't think it's that likely that TW, as town, would get up to L-2 so quickly on the second day of day one with no scum involvement.

I don't think TW and Rat are scum together, with them cross voting each other, and with TW's detailed casing of Rat. It seems really unnecessary for them to try to mutually distance themselves and start wagons against each other this early on day one if they are scumbuddies.

I do wish TW would case Keyser to the same degree that he has cased Rat, but he seems to want to hold back on this for some reason.

Out of [TW, Rat], Rat definitely has far more scum equity in my opinion. TW's casing of Rat felt genuine, whereas Rat's interactions with others came off as scummy to me. For example:

wanna check it for me?

Nah, it's not there.

VOTE: Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

aww, that's a shame VOTE: carmen
I'm p sure some form of it should be there though, cuz the bracket thingy is written in my RC
wanna check it again? or are you lying in order for someone to notice this "contradiction" and derp you as town?

ugh, I was talking about the town RC if it wasn't obvious

I was re-reading the thread and noticed that my post could be understood as a disgusting joke
that vote was half-serious, it was not pure RvS, so read it as so

and c'mon, someone write sth
it's boring being here alone

I don't think Rat really had a good reason for "seriously" voting Carmen here, and she did say that the vote was "half-serious".

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way

OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.

Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

Why did Rat make such a big deal about this? All TW did was ask Lefty what he thought of Keyser's entrance -- I don't see how that's really LAMIST, which is what Rat seems to be implying here. Yes everyone should be sorting players and coming up with their own reads, but there is nothing wrong with asking player X what they think about player Y, as long as you are still sorting everyone else in addition to that. Rat seems to be suggesting that TW want's other people to sort Keyser for him so he doesn't have to do the work of sorting Keyser himself, which I don't think is accurate at all. She is also suggesting here that TW's motivation in asking the question was to appear LAMIST, as opposed to him actually wanting to know what Lefty thought of Keyser's entrance.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.

Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

Again, here Rat is criticizing someone for asking a question regarding Keyser. I don't think her criticism of Lefty was really warranted here -- he asks a question about Keyser, and she insinuates that his reason for asking the question was to appear like he was doing something, as opposed to it being a question he genuinely wanted answered. In other words, she is again suggesting that the motivation behind the question was to purposefully appear LAMIST, as opposed to it just being a question that Lefty wanted answered. It's just odd that on two different occasions, two different people ask a question about Keyser, and Rat attacks (unreasonably IMO) both TW and Lefty for asking their respective questions about Keyser. I would think town!Rat would understand that this game isn't just about everyone forming their own reads in isolation and then presenting their readslist to the rest of the group, but it's largely a game that involves interacting with everyone else to understand their motivations, which includes asking players questions such as, "what did you think about X from player Y?" The fact that Rat's initial reaction to both questions about Keyser was to immediately label them as attempts to be LAMIST rather than as genuine questions that were asked to gather information to help gamesolve, seems much more likely to come from scum than town.

VOTE: LabRat01

I guess I will vote again.

[volxen]

VOTE: LabRat01

[volxen]

You think scum-labrat is chainsaw defending scum-me on PAGE ONE against TWO PLAYERS?

why is this so ridiculous...?
the reason chainsawing is a scumtell is that inexperienced scum players tend to do it unintentionally

I was just being OMGUS’y against you and Volxen it seems......... unwilling to accept being scum read unjustly.

[In truth though, in that scenario, ‘scum-LabRat’ was using me as a springboard to attack ‘townies’ for questioning me (who she knows is town).]

Obviously, I’m terribly wrong about everyone.

Let’s kill LabRat then “town”.

VOTE: LabRat

@TW, what do you think about this? Keyser is essentially saying that if Rat is scum, she is buddying/defending him in a similar manner to how I buddied/defended Keyser as scum in Watcher Wanted (link for anyone interested to that game: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77119). As you, Irrelephant, and Keyser will all recall, as scum in that game most of my ISO revolved around Keyser, and I chainsaw defended him by attacking people who attacked him (e.g., 2.781/Huntress). To quote Keyser, my strategy as scum in that game was to use Keyser as a springboard to attack and scumpaint any townies who attacked him. Keyser is claiming that may be happening again in this game, except this time it is Rat who is buddying/defending him.

Do you think that is likely to be going on here -- do you think town!Keyser is being buddied/defended by scum!Rat? Does Rat's treatment of Keyser's slot seem similar to how I treated Keyser in Watcher Wanted, where Keyser was town and I was scum? Or do you think the interactions between Rat and Keyser are more likely SvS?

[volxen]

@TW, what do you think about this? Keyser is essentially saying that if Rat is scum, she is buddying/defending him in a similar manner to how I buddied/defended Keyser as scum in Watcher Wanted (link for anyone interested to that game: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77119). As you, Irrelephant, and Keyser will all recall, as scum in that game most of my ISO revolved around Keyser, and I chainsaw defended him by attacking people who attacked him (e.g., 2.781/Huntress). To quote Keyser, my strategy as scum in that game was to use Keyser as a springboard to attack and scumpaint any townies who attacked him. Keyser is claiming that may be happening again in this game, except this time it is Rat who is buddying/defending him.

Do you think that is likely to be going on here -- do you think town!Keyser is being buddied/defended by scum!Rat? Does Rat's treatment of Keyser's slot seem similar to how I treated Keyser in Watcher Wanted, where Keyser was town and I was scum? Or do you think the interactions between Rat and Keyser are more likely SvS?

In short:

most likely: SvS
second most likely: town!labby / scum!Keyser
then: scum!labby / town!keyser
probably never: TvT

@TW,

Why would town!Rat chainsaw defend scum!Keyser in these two posts thugh?

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way
OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.
Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.
Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

I agree they could simply be scum together. But if one of them is scum and one of them is town, scum!Rat and town!Keyser seems far more likely to me than scum!Keyser and and town!Rat.

[volxen]

@TW, earlier you said you would present your full case against scum!Keyser if one of your townreads requested it.

I'm one of your townreads, so I would like to take you up on that. I need to case Keyser again myself, but I need you to help me understand how you have come to the conclusion that Keyser has more scum equity than Labrat.

Perhaps I need to skim through some of Keyser's scum games? My only experience with Keyser is Watcher Wanted, where he was town.

[volxen]

@Labrat, what are your thoughts on The Worst and Keyser at the moment?

[volxen]

g r o o a n

my reservation is I have some spicy tells on keyser which I believe are working really well. as soon as I name them I become unable to use them again

are you sure you can't take my word for it or read it from his content?

I see. Is your scumread of him based entirely off of his content from this game, or is it in part a meta read based on other games you have played with him? Would I need to read his other games to be able to see these same tells that you are seeing from him?

And have you played with scum!Keyser before in other games?

[volxen]

if anyone wants to see why Creature is scum iso him in Heroes Wanted. he made f3 as scum by ridiculing people's meta reads on him and posting content of a slightly higher calibre than this.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=76709

Hop to page 3 for f3 play if you're interested
otherwise just a scroll thru is fine
sorry for linking to spamfest game

Wait, are you saying we need to look at Creature's predecessor's content in that game as well? Because I just looked at that game and Creature didn't replace Human Sequencer until page 129 of the game. So do I need to read through Human Sequencer's content as well to understand this meta read of Creature and how Creature managed to make it to the final three in that game?

[volxen]

We'll, I'm off to bed
Hoping town does the right thing and votes creature

It will flip scum, I'm 99% sure

Lcp


Also @tw what 521 page monstrosity is that?!

Yes, that's why I asked TW about it as well. I don't intend to read all 521 pages of Heroes Wanted, but I feel like reading a portion of it could hopefully help me to understand TW's meta read of Creature. That's why I would like TW to narrow down what portion of that game would be most beneficial to read.

[volxen]

Found the game where I’d played with Creature (both of us were town). Here were my comments on his contributions that game:

Spoiler:

”lack of understanding of the sincerity of either read”

“gut bad-feels”

“[Concern: is Creature just wagon pushing for the sake of a lynch, or pushing wagons to truly sort players? I want to believe and see that Creature s/reads a player and commits there (not just with votes but with words)]”

“Creature has been a constant 'presence' in the game, will re-read his interactions around the flipped scum, but I feel like he still hasn't been able to obv-town.”

It’s basically a tale of

frustration

, so I would be hesitant to hard s/read his behaviour/posts/attitude. He’s not a classic powertown poster.

Can you link to this game?

[volxen]

We'll, I'm off to bed
Hoping town does the right thing and votes creature

It will flip scum, I'm 99% sure

Lcp


Also @tw what 521 page monstrosity is that?!

Yes, that's why I asked TW about it as well. I don't intend to read all 521 pages of Heroes Wanted, but I feel like reading a portion of it could hopefully help me to understand TW's meta read of Creature. That's why I would like TW to narrow down what portion of that game would be most beneficial to read.

lol this post

Like volxen who just came here to fart and left

So now I am scum because I asked TW about another game of yours because it might help me to read your slot?

You don't seem to have a genuine interest in solving this game.

VOTE: Creature

[volxen]

CRAZY DEJA VU @THE WORST @KEYSER @IRREL

ALL WE NEED IS NAUCI

Now 5/9 out of the playerlist is from Watcher Wanted -- although you forgot about me, Eragon. I guess I will give you a pass this time, since our time together alive in Watcher Wanted was pretty short lived.

[volxen]

First 10 posts-
-I dont see anything AI, mostly memes/not really content posts

Cool I almost posted in a game that ended months ago

Next 10 posts-i see a few things here
-196 the stuff about replacing out seems like natural interaction? I don’t really know I just kinda like the tone from it
-200 this post gives me strong town pings, specifically saying “dont send me to heaven”

21-30
-202 *pats*
-204 you poor soul.
-218 I dont know where this read comes from? He hasn’t said anything about tw, and all of a sudden “oh hey your probably right on TW”
-219 makes my heart feel warm inside 0.0 but on a serious note It does seem weird, but why would scum say a single intro RvS post reads town? pocket?

31-40
-225 prove it. Insofar you can, this post is fine, but if you aren’t trying, this is probably LAMIST

41-50
-240 personally feel towny tone here, but I also think this is a stretch
-319 why are you bringing this up again?? And the “i wouldn’t notice it myself though” sounds like “oh hey I didn’t get a scum rc so I couldn’t see that”
-323 personally I abhor self-meta, but I know people do it on this site (?) so im in-between here. Reasoning is b/c if someone knows their meta enough to comment about it, can’t they manipulate it? like, creature says “i’d give town reads as scum”
> gives like, 1 townread.
“oh hey I cant be scum”
-329 do you have a response to their vote?

51-60
-330 then does it
-331 can you elaborate a bit more on “he did enough” and why you are hesistant?
-332 towny vibes
-338 I have no idea the context, but I feel towny ping he doesn’t want to do unnatural things.

61-70
-466 isn’t that what you did? (except for saying it outloud)

71-80
-471 town ping, scum would force reads out, town wants to make accurate reads
-479 was that an actual scum read?




81-90
502 do you feel you are doing that this game? And is it normal as all alignments?
504as above town ping, scum would try to force a read
511above

91-100
525 its all well and good to try to make reads the way you want, but its normally good to have some reads by that point of the game… I still like how you aren’t giving in to people forcing you to make reads, as I feel scum would, but I think its about time…
556 mostly calm reaction to the vote, but it also strikes me a bit odd
“ I dont care if you vote me just don’t Lynch me” feels like an indirect way of saying “why the fuck did you vote me”

101-110
558 this made me laugh
568 most people like it when you give reasons for town reads ;_;
please?
572 I dont know whats going on in this post

111-120
580 :3
582 *pat*
611 do it. I dare you.
612 I also want an explanation from lab

121-130
622 why des it matter if he’s an alt?
656 what do you mean? You think volxen is scum, or you think this puts us into judgement day? And if you think volxen is scum explain. And if you think everyone is town, explain.
657 I see that too, but why go pure shade instead of asking WHY rel is sleeping TW?
662 can you explain why you SR volxen?


131-141
666 speak of the devil, please don’t do this. Odd coincidence for the post numbers lmao.
671 so basically your read is he had a wolf pop-in. Got it. But what about the rest of his posts? scummy? Towny but not enough to counter-act, null?
681 IM HERE BISH AND YOU CANT STOP THIS
682 well, its also statisticly likely that at least 1 is scum, based on there being 4/9 players and 3/9 are scum…
684 when did you change the read?

142-155
-685 try to draw a conclusion yourself, as well as asking
-686 MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA
-687 again, you literally need to have worse reads than RNG(i’ve seen it happen) to not have one of these be scum
-688 do you truly believe this?
-691 I think you should
-693 so you don’t acknowledge the fact that you could be scum and people think you might be scum??????? Everyone that scum reads you, no matter what, your skeptical of?
-699 ok.

conclusion:

So, i saw a lot of posts that gave me towny pings and i felt the tone was towny, but i also read a few that just made me go "WTF???" so i don't think i can consider this strong town, but i definitely have a townread here

Alright, so you've done a fairly detailed ISO dive of Creature. And it also seems you not only believe that Creature is town, but he is your strongest townread. It seems like you came to that conclusion fairly easily, but if Creature is somehow obvious town, then several players (including myself) are missing it, so it's a bit concerning to me that he became your strongest townread so quickly and so easily. Especially because a lot of the things you listed as being townie for him could easily be faked by scum. For example:

-196 the stuff about replacing out seems like natural interaction? I don’t really know I just kinda like the tone from it

Why is him asking Lefty whether he replaced out more likely to come from town!Creature than scum!Creature? I don't really see that as being AI at all.

-200 this post gives me strong town pings, specifically saying “dont send me to heaven”

Scum could do that just as well to try to make themselves look more towny, especially with his whole follow-up of "I don't plan to be sent to heaven early anyway. I'm more of an endgame guy." in post 382.

-319 why are you bringing this up again?? And the “i wouldn’t notice it myself though” sounds like “oh hey I didn’t get a scum rc so I couldn’t see that”

When Labrat brought up the typo about the mafia RC saying "aligned with town" in post 6, people were quick to point out that that may be more likely to come from scum than town (i.e., scum would be more likely to notice the typo), which may be a fair assessment. But why is Creature's response of "I wouldn't notice it myself though" townie? Couldn't that just be scum!Creature making a joke about it in jest?

-332 towny vibes

Why? In that post he says, "tbh I'm more ready to send players to heaven than scum to hell." Considering it's arguably a lot worse to send scum to heaven than it is to send a townie to hell, why does he get town points for that?

-471 town ping, scum would force reads out, town wants to make accurate reads

Like volxen who just came here to fart and left

As in, you think DrJ and Volxen are both scum?

I expressed multiple times I scumread volxen.

Also DrJ didn't seem to do anything other than bugging me for inactivity when like the entire playerlist was inactive.

That might have been a fair point to make for Creature earlier in the game, but his read of me is either forced/faked (if he is scum) or incredibly lazy (if he is town). I asked TW legitimate questions about the Heroes Wanted game (since TW himself brought it up as his basis for meta reading Creature), and Creature responds by throwing shade at me saying I was "fart posting" by asking about the game. It came across like he was more interested in throwing shade at me rather than trying to accurately sort my slot.

Now if Creature is in-fact town, I agree with his assessment in post 682 that he probably didn't get up to L-1 without scum involvement, especially since a third of the playerlist is scum. And I am one of the people on his wagon, so it makes sense for town!Creature to be critical of my slot. But his wagon consisted of myself, Dr. J., The Worst, and Keyser. He has been throwing shade at me and Dr. J, but why is he not being critical of the rest of his wagon? He seems to be giving Keyser in particular an easy townread, as he seems convinced that Keyser is the only person on his wagon that is town. But he never explained why Keyser's joining of his wagon is more "genuine" than TW, Dr. J, or myself joining his wagon:

Keyser feels like the most genuine atleast. The rest all have some scum equity.

Now I think there's very likely scum among {DrJ, the worst, volxen}

I could see any of them deciding to push me as scum.

Any why doesn't he consider the possibility that Keyser could be pushing him as scum as well? Why is Keyser the only person on his wagon that gets a free pass?

I'm just not seeing anything in Creature's ISO or interactions that is strongly indicative of him being town. It really feels like you are giving Creature an incredibly easy townread.

[volxen]

@Keyser, do you think Creature is perhaps pocketing/buddying you? Does his townread of you feel "genuine"?

[volxen]

For some reason I thought it was a 7:2 setup... learnt from the OP that there are in fact three mafia!

I find that odd as well now that you mention it... do you think Keyser was trying to fake towntell here?

In any case, I'm concerned about Keyser. He voted for Creature then quickly unvoted, and given the interactions between him and Creature, it wouldn't exactly be shocking if they are scum together. I don't know if his vote for Creature was genuine, or if he was just faking a willingness to lynch Creature. After all, unlike Watcher Wanted this game setup can potentially be very punishing of busing, since 2/3 scum have to make it to Heaven for them to win. So if Keyser and Creature are scum together, Keyser may simply be unwilling to bus here.

Then again, I'm concerned about Eragon as well. He very quickly came to the conclusion that Creature was town, and before he developed his townread of my slot, Creature was his strongest townread. Based on Creature's content in this game, I'm not sure I believe that his initial townread of Creature, and especially how quickly he developed it, is genuine.

I'm like 99.99% certain that there is at least one scum among {Keyser, Creature, Eragon}. I don't see a world where they are all town.

[volxen]

Did you know?

Highland cattle are well adapted to the scottish highlands, and have been compared to caribou in resiliency..

Votecount 1.10

Creature (5) - Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, volxen, Ausuka, the worst, Irrelephant
Keyser (2) - LabRat01, Creature
Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde (1) - Eragon
Eragon (1) - Keyser Söze
Not Voting -

Creature has been lynched! He was...

Spoiler:

A Vanilla Townie

Time till end of heaven phase 1: (expired on 2018-11-22 15:30:00)

I feel like I need to reevaluate my reads and this entire game. I've had suspicions of Keyser, Eragon, and Labrat all being scum, but I don't think Creature's wagon was all town, which means at least one of {Keyser, Eragon, Labrat} is town. I need to see which one of those three has the most town equity.

And regarding Creature's wagon, I kind of doubt his five-person wagon was [town, town, town, town, scum]. Meaning I don't think Irrelephant is the sole scum on his wagon -- I believe there is scum among the first four voters on his wagon. Especially because Creature would have been lynched regardless of whether Irrelephant joined the wagon due to the plurality lynching rules, and he voted for Creature just hours before the deadline, so he effectively contributed the least to Creature's mislynch. I'm not ruling out the possibility of scum!Irrelephant, but if he is scum then there were most likely multiple scum on Creature's wagon. So fmpov that means I need to look at {TW, Dr. J, and Ausuka}, as there is most likely scum among those three.

[volxen]

Btw Volxen, it’s hard to get a solid/genuine read on you if you’re poppping in and out every 5 pages.

NGL, right now I’m relying on Irrelephant’s meta defence on you to put you above null into green.

Need to see some natural conversation/interactions. I can see you’re thinking alot, but would prefer to see you think on your toes, instead of these longer posts (I’m sure you’d understand if I feared scum-you would have time to manufacture these posts).

That's in large part my playstyle, though. Yes I do at times engage in real time interactions when I can, but a lot of the time I write fewer but lengthier posts as opposed to a lot of shorter posts. My playstyle is very different from someone like Creature for that reason. I know your only first-hand experience was with scum!me in Watcher Wanted, but I do the same thing in my town games. I've completed several newbie games as town, and you will see my posting style is largely the same across all of those games.

But is there anything in particular that is making it hard for you to read me?

[volxen]

who do you think keyser is town?
i could see having some reasons for a town lean, but willing to put in heaven im suprised tbh.

good tone and his ate at the end of d2 felt genuine, seems interested in scumhunting similarly to other games i played with him.

w/ volxen and tw, tw's read had a lot more nuance and progression? and i feel like he had a large role in like setting those players as scumread, whereas volxen is just like "yeah a few of these points why eragon is townreading creature are kind of wrong" at a time when i think creature and eragon are considered the scummiest players here, and says "Any why doesn't he consider the possibility that Keyser could be pushing him as scum as well? Why is Keyser the only person on his wagon that gets a free pass?" while quoting creature openly entertaining the possibility keyser is scum. tw's reads feel a lot more developed than volxen's in this regard and also his entire reason for pushing eragon and keyser as scum is essentially "they make sense as buddies with creature" but he's also like "I'm like 99.99% certain that there is at least one scum among {Keyser, Creature, Eragon}. I don't see a world where they are all town." which doesn't actually account for how his push was revolved around creature and preflip associations.

his push today is basically just "people on the Creature wagon are scum" which seems like a really surface level view and doesn't at all account for the possibility that scum might have just stayed off the wagon which happens regularly in games generally.

i'm tired right now so sorry if none of this makes sense.

@Ausuka, do you really think my conclusion about their being scum on Creature's wagon is unreasonable? Even in games with the usual town:scum ratio (e.g., 7:2, 10:3, etc.), I still believe that in the vast majority of cases, townies don't get lynched without scum involvement, especially on day one where the most votes are required to achieve a lynch. I have done this kind of VCA analysis, as town, in multiple newbie games that I have played.

In this game, I believe this applies even more-so than usual because the town:scum ratio is 6:3 rather than 7:2, and a third of the original playerlist is scum. To put it in perspective, there are only 6 townies, so if Creature's mislynch wagon was all-town, it would mean that 100% of his fellow town players all voted to lynch him, and that the scumteam is {Keyser, Eragon, Labrat}. I'm 99.99% confident that isn't the case.

I furthermore concluded that Irrelephant isn't the sole scum on Creature's wagon, because his vote didn't really make a significant difference in the outcome of day one (i.e., Creature would have been mislynched even if Irrelephant did not place the hammer vote). So what is wrong with my conclusion that there is scum among {TW, Dr. J, Ausuka} based on VCA? Do you really think I should be entertaining the notion of a {Keyser, Eragon, Labrat} scumteam at this point?

[volxen]

If we are sending someone off of Creature's wagon (Keyser, Labrat, Eragon) to Heaven, then I will need to ISO all three of them as I still haven't ruled out any of them from being scum.

@Keyser, would you send Labrat over Eragon to Heaven?

[volxen]

Dr J
Keyser
Volxen

Eragon
Ausuka

Irrelephant
TW
LabRat

What I'm trying to determine is how many scum were on Creature's wagon. As I said before I definitely don't think there were zero scum on Creature's wagon, but I also think it's unlikely that all three scum were on his wagon. I'm torn between there being one or two scum on Creature's wagon, but I definitely feel like I really need to look at Eragon's slot. I was previously pretty skeptical of his Creature townread (I didn't understand how he came to his conclusions about Creature), but now that Creature has flipped town it's more plausible that Eragon simply picked up on town pings from Creature that most of us missed.

Keyser, are you saying here you suspect the scumteam is Irrelephant/TW/Labrat?

[volxen]

Dr J
Keyser
Volxen

Eragon
Ausuka

Irrelephant
TW
LabRat

What I'm trying to determine is how many scum were on Creature's wagon. As I said before I definitely don't think there were zero scum on Creature's wagon, but I also think it's unlikely that all three scum were on his wagon. I'm torn between there being one or two scum on Creature's wagon, but I definitely feel like I really need to look at Eragon's slot. I was previously pretty skeptical of his Creature townread (I didn't understand how he came to his conclusions about Creature), but now that Creature has flipped town it's more plausible that Eragon simply picked up on town pings from Creature that most of us missed.

Keyser, are you saying here you suspect the scumteam is Irrelephant/TW/Labrat?

Yes, been sitting on this theory since D1, but TW's/Irrelphants/LabRats D2 posts just confirmed it in my head.

I'll explain it D3.

So you would be OK with also sending Eragon to Heaven today then? At the moment I'm leaning towards sending Dr. J or Eragon to Heaven.

[volxen]

Yes, Dr J firm favourite.
Eragon after you, but yes, Eragon deserves to go to heaven (they should have just followed their reads D1 and not be misled by 'the mob').

Alright then, I'm OK with sending Dr. J to Heaven. He was the first person I townread on day one, and the fact that he townreads you makes me feel better about your slot.

VOTE: Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

[volxen]

What's been going on is alot of distancing/anti distancing attempts, chainlinking players with their scum teammates, scumslips, forced town reads, discrediting and false bravado.

One thing that has concerned about me TW and Irrelephant, actually, is how easily and quickly they came to townread me this game. I am town, but in the one game where TW and I were town together (Newbie 1888), he was

extremely

critical of my slot and it took him a long time to come to around to townreading me, after heavily scumreading me first. And likewise, in the one game where Irrelephant and I were town together (Newbie 1894), it took a while for Irrelephant to townread me as well, and he definitely considered the possibility of me being scum in that game. In this game, they both quite quickly and easily came to the conclusion that I am town based on meta reasons, which is somewhat odd considering they both have quite critically scrutinized my slot in our previous games together.

Whereas with Eragon, he came to townread me pretty quickly as well, but he gave very detailed reasons as to why and it was based entirely on this game rather than meta reasons.

[volxen]

Yes, forced TMI town reads.

Plus, you town read them both... until now(?)

I'm still townreading Dr. J, and he townreads you, so that makes you at least a townlean for me, and I feel a lot better about your slot compared to day one. And I'm pretty sure Eragon is town, his townread of both me and Creature feels genuine as opposed to manufactured.

{Dr. J, Keyser, Eragon} is my town pile for the time being.

[volxen]

dont mind me pondering the most important question of the universe...


TL;DR sorry i've been active, doing thingies soon

How do you feel about sending Dr. J to Heaven?

[volxen]

@Keyser, The more I think about it, I think you may be right about TW/Irrelephant/Labrat being the scum team. If I am right about {Dr. J., Keyser, Eragon} being town, then that leaves {Ausuka, TW, Irrelephant, Labrat} by POE.

You feel pretty good about Asukua[Lefty] being town Keyser?

[volxen]

i think volxen is town outside of meta

Yes, I am seeing this today in the heaven phase.
I always prefer hearing a player talk about their reads in real time.

who are the wolves on wagon tho

LabRat off it

didn't you townread them???

Initially town read, ended in PoE, back to town read for short while and now a solid scum-read in my heart and head.

Dr J
Keyser
Volxen

Eragon
Ausuka

Irrelephant
TW
LabRat

is this order to heaven or townreads?
if townreads, uhhh
why is doc J higher than you?

A combination of preferred order entry into heaven and tiered reads list. In reality, I'd prefer to see all my t/reads/leans into heaven before stepping foot in there myself.

I'll explain it D3.

can you at least give a short summary?

What's been going on is alot of distancing/anti distancing attempts, chainlinking players with their scum teammates, scumslips, forced town reads, discrediting and false bravado.

Yes, forced TMI town reads.

Plus, you town read them both... until now(?)

whose reads were forced and/or TMI?

I believe Irrelephant's and TW's.

@Keyser, out of TW/Irrelephant/Labrat, which 2 do you feel the most confident about being scum? TW and Irrelpehant? Just wondering where you are at with those 3, since we only have to be correct about 2 of them to win the game. Who is your top pick to send to lynch on Day 3?

[volxen]

VOTE: volxen
Sick as a dog now, I'll be aroundish but kind of feverish and trying to sleep.

What's going on here? I thought we all agreed to send Dr. J to Heaven.

Get some rest and feel better though.

[volxen]

Time till end of heaven phase 1: 3 days, 22 hours, 39 minutes

i'm a rebel w/o a cause and we have enough time left for some fun

funnily enough, rel is the only one of those 3 i see as scum atm

@TW, are you trying to take me out of the game so I'm not around for the hell phase on day 3?

[volxen]

I don’t like this late counter wagon to Volxen. We send Dr J unless someone strongly opposes / scum reads Dr J. Then, I’m all ears.



Volxen, would you prefer, (like me) to stay ‘in the game’ instead of in heaven? I want to send you to heaven in the 2nd heaven phase (if my reads are right).

Well I thought Dr. J was a near universal townread, so it makes sense to send him to Heaven today. Fmpov it's a more informative flip, since I'm already 100% certain of the fact that I'm town (though I'm like 95% certain Dr. J is town as well).

And I think I feel better about sending Dr. J to Heaven than he does about sending me to Heaven, so that was another reason why I think it makes sense to just go ahead and send him to Heaven.

[volxen]

{tw}
{volxen}
{dr J}
{Labby}
{Ausuka}
{Eragon}
{Rel}
{keyser}

what
this might be an ok solve

Why do you feel more confident about me being town than about Dr. J being town?

[volxen]

Are we going to wait out the deadline here? I don't realistically see anyone besides Dr. J getting sent to Heaven, because he doesn't seem comfortable with sending me to Heaven.

[volxen]

WHO WANTS GUACAMOLE?

Is that our reward if we correctly gamesolve and win the game?

[volxen]

Interesting thing here I noticed. Here are the first five posts I made in the game:

Post #1: 307:

Did you know?

Lions and tigers can crossbreed to create a species known as Ligers..

Votecount 1.03

the worst (3) - LabRat01, Keyser Soze, Irrelephant

Keyser Söze (2) - Lefty, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde
Carmen (1) - LabRat01,
Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde (1) - Carmen
LabRat01 (1) - the worst
Not Voting - Creature, volxen,

Time till end of hell phase 1: (expired on 2018-11-15 17:00:00)

I'm pretty sure there is at least one scum among [TW, Rat, Keyser, and Rel]. I don't think it's that likely that TW, as town, would get up to L-2 so quickly on the second day of day one with no scum involvement.

I don't think TW and Rat are scum together, with them cross voting each other, and with TW's detailed casing of Rat. It seems really unnecessary for them to try to mutually distance themselves and start wagons against each other this early on day one if they are scumbuddies.

I do wish TW would case Keyser to the same degree that he has cased Rat, but he seems to want to hold back on this for some reason.

Out of [TW, Rat], Rat definitely has far more scum equity in my opinion. TW's casing of Rat felt genuine, whereas Rat's interactions with others came off as scummy to me. For example:

wanna check it for me?

Nah, it's not there.

VOTE: Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

aww, that's a shame VOTE: carmen
I'm p sure some form of it should be there though, cuz the bracket thingy is written in my RC
wanna check it again? or are you lying in order for someone to notice this "contradiction" and derp you as town?

ugh, I was talking about the town RC if it wasn't obvious

I was re-reading the thread and noticed that my post could be understood as a disgusting joke
that vote was half-serious, it was not pure RvS, so read it as so

and c'mon, someone write sth
it's boring being here alone

I don't think Rat really had a good reason for "seriously" voting Carmen here, and she did say that the vote was "half-serious".

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way

OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.

Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

Why did Rat make such a big deal about this? All TW did was ask Lefty what he thought of Keyser's entrance -- I don't see how that's really LAMIST, which is what Rat seems to be implying here. Yes everyone should be sorting players and coming up with their own reads, but there is nothing wrong with asking player X what they think about player Y, as long as you are still sorting everyone else in addition to that. Rat seems to be suggesting that TW want's other people to sort Keyser for him so he doesn't have to do the work of sorting Keyser himself, which I don't think is accurate at all. She is also suggesting here that TW's motivation in asking the question was to appear LAMIST, as opposed to him actually wanting to know what Lefty thought of Keyser's entrance.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.

Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

Again, here Rat is criticizing someone for asking a question regarding Keyser. I don't think her criticism of Lefty was really warranted here -- he asks a question about Keyser, and she insinuates that his reason for asking the question was to appear like he was doing something, as opposed to it being a question he genuinely wanted answered. In other words, she is again suggesting that the motivation behind the question was to purposefully appear LAMIST, as opposed to it just being a question that Lefty wanted answered. It's just odd that on two different occasions, two different people ask a question about Keyser, and Rat attacks (unreasonably IMO) both TW and Lefty for asking their respective questions about Keyser. I would think town!Rat would understand that this game isn't just about everyone forming their own reads in isolation and then presenting their readslist to the rest of the group, but it's largely a game that involves interacting with everyone else to understand their motivations, which includes asking players questions such as, "what did you think about X from player Y?" The fact that Rat's initial reaction to both questions about Keyser was to immediately label them as attempts to be LAMIST rather than as genuine questions that were asked to gather information to help gamesolve, seems much more likely to come from scum than town.

VOTE: LabRat01

Post #2: 344

actually
VOTE: Creature

lynch this today for 11/10 guaranteed scumflip
send Dr. J to heaven tomorrow

if Lab/Keyser are town they can prove it

Why do you think Creature is scum, and why is he a better lynch than Rat?

Post #3: 349

@volxen putting associations, VCA and scum partner theories aside, are you t/reading the worst independently?

I don't feel comfortable giving TW a townread yet, no. I do think he made a good case against Rat, especially in post 297, and I do find Rat to have the most scum equity at the moment, but I'm not ready to write off TW as town yet either.

Where I am currently at is I find Dr. J to be the most towny player and Rat to be the most scummy player. I'm still kind of unsure on everyone else.

@Keyser, I am starting to get concerned that if Rat is scum, you could be one of her partners. As I pointed out earlier, it was just odd how quick she was to attack two different people for asking, in my opinion, completely legitimate questions about your slot. If she is scum it's possible that she is simply buddying/defending town!Keyser, but the way she wanted to shut down both questions about Keyser's slot could be indicative of SvS interactions. Keyser, if Rat is scum, why is TW more likely to be one of her partners than you?

But in any case, do you really think TW would gambit as scum and try to get his one of his scumbuddies sent to hell on day one? I would consider that quite a risky gambit because if he does that, then the only way he could win as scum is if both he and his remaining scumbuddy get sent to Heaven. So unless he's convinced that both he and his other scumbuddy could get a lot of towncredit for busing Rat, it seems like quite a risky play to open on day one by busing one of his partners in a game mode that, in my opinion, heavily discourages busing.

Post #4: 351

You think scum-labrat is chainsaw defending scum-me on PAGE ONE against TWO PLAYERS?

I don't think it's too far-fetched that scum!Rat would chainsaw defend one of her scumbuddies against two players. And her two posts where she attacked both TW and Lefty for asking a question about your slot were on pages three and four, not on page one:

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way
OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.
Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

This was at the bottom of page three.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.
Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

And this was as the top of page four.

And both posts were written within seven minutes of each other, which makes it even more odd.

Post #5: 371

Out of [TW, Rat], Rat definitely has far more scum equity in my opinion. TW's casing of Rat felt genuine, whereas Rat's interactions with others came off as scummy to me. For example:
[quote="In post 307, volxen]

wanna check it for me?

Nah, it's not there.

VOTE: Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

aww, that's a shame VOTE: carmen
I'm p sure some form of it should be there though, cuz the bracket thingy is written in my RC
wanna check it again? or are you lying in order for someone to notice this "contradiction" and derp you as town?

ugh, I was talking about the town RC if it wasn't obvious

I was re-reading the thread and noticed that my post could be understood as a disgusting joke
that vote was half-serious, it was not pure RvS, so read it as so

and c'mon, someone write sth
it's boring being here alone

I don't think Rat really had a good reason for "seriously" voting Carmen here, and she did say that the vote was "half-serious".

First off, volx seems to have read the thread till duck’s posts, so he should have also been aware of the whole conversation between me and korina. I don’t feel like going all over it again and this argument is

exactly

the same one I’ve been arguing with Korina about.

If he does fully understand why I pushed Carmen, I find it off that he’d find it important enough to mention here.
and if he disagreed to my answers to Korina’s pushes, he should have quoted those posts, not this one.

Him not doing that and including the exact same reasoning kinda feels like he made the argument just “to make the read look more townie/impressive” and doesn’t actually care to think about it seriously

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way

OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.

Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

Why did Rat make such a big deal about this? All TW did was ask Lefty what he thought of Keyser's entrance -- I don't see how that's really LAMIST, which is what Rat seems to be implying here.
Yes everyone should be sorting players and coming up with their own reads, but there is nothing wrong with asking player X what they think about player Y, as long as you are still sorting everyone else in addition to that.
Rat seems to be suggesting that TW wants other people to sort Keyser for him so he doesn't have to do the work of sorting Keyser himself, which I don't think is accurate at all.
She is also suggesting here that TW's motivation in asking the question was to appear LAMIST, as opposed to him actually wanting to know what Lefty thought of Keyser's entrance.

This one is actually fair, except the “why did rat make such a big deal of this?” part.
This is nearly the same thing as in the last part of the quote, but it’s more visible in the quote there, so just read it there, but it feels kinda fake to me that a player who’s capable of writing an elaborate analysis like this one would base his reads on reasons that are just so obviously wrong.

And the way he defended TW was funny imo. Prob too daring to be SvS, but I don’t think I can say anything more about that

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.

Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

Again, here Rat is criticizing someone for asking a question regarding Keyser. I don't think her criticism of Lefty was really warranted here -- he asks a question about Keyser, and she insinuates that his reason for asking the question was to appear like he was doing something, as opposed to it being a question he genuinely wanted answered. In other words, she is again suggesting that the motivation behind the question was to purposefully appear LAMIST, as opposed to it just being a question that Lefty wanted answered.
It's just odd that on two different occasions, two different people ask a question about Keyser, and Rat attacks (unreasonably IMO) both TW and Lefty for asking their respective questions about Keyser.

Yes, I think Lefty’s post was lamist. I don’t think it’s necessarily scum indicative though, because awkwardness and not knowing what to write early in the game is not really scummy. Both town and scum can feel that way and even though his question/post wasn’t sincere imo, both alignments could have had their reasons for doing it.
The read was kind of a push, but it was also a suggestion to do sth else, because even if they’re town, their motivation isn’t difficult to notice and it’s gonna get them lynched if they keep doing that for a long time.

I would think town!Rat would understand that this game isn't just about everyone forming their own reads in isolation and then presenting their readslist to the rest of the group, but it's largely a game that involves interacting with everyone else to understand their motivations, which includes asking players questions such as, "what did you think about X from player Y?" The fact that Rat's initial reaction to both questions about Keyser was to immediately label them as attempts to be LAMIST rather than as genuine questions that were asked to gather information to help gamesolve, seems much more likely to come from scum than town.

VOTE: LabRat01

Here he pushes me for pushing others instead of asking for their motivations, which I find funny coming from someone with such a high game-count.
Even regardless of how many games he played, I find it hard to believe that a player who’s capable of writing such an elaborate analysis of my posts would be unaware that “pushing people” “allows you to read them better” and progresses the game, which is necessary at any point of the game.
Like, c’mon, he did play a lot of games on the site so he should have realized that if people ask questions, they’re most likely gonna get calm, composed answers, which aren’t really gonna help you do anything. Of course some people might just not like pushing others without a reason, but it doesn’t mean others can’t do that and everyone who pushes people early is scum.

Like, I really don’t want to believe that he’s being serious here. Him pushing me for that feels like he was just forcing himself to find a looong, non-sheepy reason for me being scum, without actually caring if it actually makes sense or not.
This post is long and I’ll give him credit for saying that the reasons behind my pushes were bad (even though they weren't), but the main part of it is just terribly empty.

And I don’t like how he disappeared right after writing that. Except the short VCA reasoning and TR on duck, he hasn’t done anything to progress the game, not even asking questions which he was pushing me for.
That’s just incredibly lazy

P.Edit…
Which just changed, so ignore that part.

If you are town, you are really misunderstanding why I am scumreading you -- or you are deliberately trying to misrepresent me if you are scum. I am not against aggressively pressuring and pushing people. I do it myself all the time, and I have even put someone at L-1 on page one of a newbie game as town (see: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77453) precisely because I wanted to pressure that person. The last thing I am against is pressuring people to see how they react.

No, my problem is that you tried to

shut down/discourage

legitimate questions from both TW and Lefty, both of which were questions about Keyser's slot. In your post you seem to be setting up this false dichotomy where a choice has to be made between questioning someone vs pressuring someone. Why does it have to be either or? You can certainly ask people legitimate questions while simultaneously pressuring them. You want to push TW and Lefty to see how they react? Fine, but you shouldn't be trying to shut down and discourage the legitimate questions they asked about Keyser's slot.

THAT

is what I have a problem with -- you could have pressured Lefty and TW without trying to shutdown their questions about Keyser.

I'm struggling to see the town motivation in trying to shutdown both of their respective questions about Keyser. I mean, if TW and Lefty are both town, think about it from their perspective. If they are both town, and they find one another to be townie, doesn't it make sense for them to talk to one another about Keyser, especially if they are both trying to get an accurate read on Keyser? I mean this is a team game after all, so it makes sense to discuss your reads and other slots with people you find to be towny. So they ask legitimate questions of each other about Keyser's slot, and then you come along and within seven minutes, write two back-to-back posts where you basically call both of them LAMIST, and tell both of them that they are wasting time by asking each other questions about Keyser's slot. But why call it a waste of time -- why assume the questions they were asking each other wouldn't help both of them get a better read on Keyser? Because if getting answers to their questions would help them to better sort Keyser, then it would be a pretty good usage of time, no?

Again the problem isn't that you were aggressive towards TW and Lefty, it's that you tried to "redirect" them away from talking about Keyser and questioning each other about Keyser, when I don't believe you had a legitimate reason for doing so. So yes, for now I am quite skeptical of your motivations.

So those were my first five posts. Then Irrelephant posts this in 377:

Mod I’m always v/la saturday & sunday

My one thought without fully catching up is this seems like a towny volxen, unless he’s trying very very hard to improve his scumgame (no nuance there)

And TW posts this in 410:

@volxen putting associations, VCA and scum partner theories aside, are you t/reading the worst independently?

I don't feel comfortable giving TW a townread yet, no. I do think he made a good case against Rat, especially in post 297, and I do find Rat to have the most scum equity at the moment, but I'm not ready to write off TW as town yet either.

Where I am currently at is I find Dr. J to be the most towny player and Rat to be the most scummy player. I'm still kind of unsure on everyone else.

@Keyser, I am starting to get concerned that if Rat is scum, you could be one of her partners. As I pointed out earlier, it was just odd how quick she was to attack two different people for asking, in my opinion, completely legitimate questions about your slot. If she is scum it's possible that she is simply buddying/defending town!Keyser, but the way she wanted to shut down both questions about Keyser's slot could be indicative of SvS interactions. Keyser, if Rat is scum, why is TW more likely to be one of her partners than you?

But in any case, do you really think TW would gambit as scum and try to get his one of his scumbuddies sent to hell on day one? I would consider that quite a risky gambit because if he does that, then the only way he could win as scum is if both he and his remaining scumbuddy get sent to Heaven. So unless he's convinced that both he and his other scumbuddy could get a lot of towncredit for busing Rat, it seems like quite a risky play to open on day one by busing one of his partners in a game mode that, in my opinion, heavily discourages busing.

This post is so so towny
god if I'm misreading volxen here I'm going to feel dumb as shit postgame

So after my first five posts, they both basically come to the exact same conclusion that I am obvious town in this game. And both of their respective townreads of me have to do with the fact that since I had no nuance with my fake reads as scum in Watcher Wanted, that that in and of itself proves that I am town in this game, since my reads are more nuanced in this game. But I was the first person lynched in Watcher Wanted, over two months ago in early September. As Ausuka pointed out, why would they believe that if I were scum in this game, that my play would be exactly the same as it was in Watcher Wanted? I'ts been over two months since that game ended for me, and I have played numerous games in that time. And beyond that, I've played with town!Irrelephant very recently (In Newbie 1894), and town!TW less recently (in Newbie 1888). In both of those games, neither of them pegged me as obvious town right off of the bat. In newbie 1888, TW hard scumread me on day 1 and pushed for my lynch, and only came around to townreading me on day 2. And in Newbie 1894, Irrelephant was skeptical of my slot all the way until lylo, when my lack of quickhammering proved that I was town. And I don't think I am more super obvious town in this game compared to either of those other games, so something doesn't add up here because the town!TW and town!Irrelephant that I know don't give out such strong townreads so easily and so early on in the game.

Keyser's skepticism towards my slot, which eventually lead to a townread but only after several real-time interactions between us, feels very natural and towny.

[volxen]

labrat is probably town, too
way too many words to be scum for like 80% of players
I'll double-check this before sending them to heaven but not interested in a labrat lynch atm

This again seems like way too easy of a townread and doesn't seem like the town!Irrelephant that I have played with before. Why would the length of Labrat's posts be indicative of her being more likely town than scum? Scum can certainly write very lengthy and analytical posts just as town can.

[volxen]

@Keyser, I think we should Eragon to Heaven on day 4, if you are OK with that. I think you and I should stick around to endgame.

[volxen]

VOTE: volx

voting DrJ would be a total waste of reads imo. I really do like volx's latest content and there's no reason to get rid of lock-townies (DrJ) during the first heaven phase imo.
Satisfied with this lynch for today, prob not gonna switch unless someone manages to make me seriously paranoid that volx is scum

No please vote Dr. J, I want to stay to endgame.

[volxen]

VOTE: volx

voting DrJ would be a total waste of reads imo. I really do like volx's latest content and there's no reason to get rid of lock-townies (DrJ) during the first heaven phase imo.
Satisfied with this lynch for today, prob not gonna switch unless someone manages to make me seriously paranoid that volx is scum

No please vote Dr. J, I want to stay to endgame.

I don't have a confident enough TR on you to want to worry about you endgame, so that's prob a no
Can you comment on my read on Keyser?

I was scumreading Keyser on day one, but I think he is town now.

[volxen]

Also I'm at L-1 now, so nobody else should vote for me.

[volxen]

TLDR: unvote Volxen and present your read on Dr J.

why
I'll present reads on everyone after catching up
thought they were town D1 but I've barely played this phase so... no clue really

We are sending Dr. J to Heaven today.

[volxen]

@mod I will be V/LA until 11/20/18 (tomorrow)

[volxen]

The lack of rejection from the rest of the thread makes me wanna not send Dr. J to heaven. I don't think he's a wolf but I think scum want him heaven'd

Why couldn't it be the case that scum wants me sent to Heaven because they think that they have a greater chance of winning by keeping Dr. J in the game?

[volxen]

Wow I didn't know that Irrelephant is

irrelevant

, that's pretty mean even if he is scum.

[volxen]

Also @Dr. J you should be able to guarantee that you are sent to Heaven by voting for yourself.

[volxen]

Also @Eragon, please change your vote from me to Dr. J.

[volxen]

Also @Dr. J you should be able to guarantee that you are sent to Heaven by voting for yourself.

I take it you still don't want to go to heaven?

And to be sure, how do you feel about the wagon on yourself?

Well if the scumteam is TW/Irrelephant/Labrat, then it makes sense for all of them to prefer to send me to Heaven over you, since I've said that I think Keyser might be right about that being the scumteam. You on the other hand are still townreading TW and Labrat?

If there is one thing I feel absolutely sure about, it's that it's simply not possible for TW and Keyser to both be town. They are SvS before TvT, but I also think SvS is unlikely as well. Not with how hard they have been going at each other the whole time. And Keyser's treatment toward my slot (a lot of skepticism that gradually transitioned into a townread over time after a fair amount of real-time interactions) feels very natural and believable.

In my opinion, Keyser vs TW is what day 3 is all about, because they are not both town, and I am 99% certain they are TvS.

[volxen]

TW and Irrelephant don't seem like there usual town selves in this game. Both of them feel off.

Keyser on the other hand is coming across incredibly towny and believable.

What do you think Dr. J? Do you see a world where both TW and Keyser are town?

[volxen]

all due respect but

I called volxen was a better choice for heaven. I was a lot subtler about the fact we probably should have extractsd more content from Korina but in spite of that flip, it was a clearly scum motivated wagon and I'm proud I called for that to be avoided.

Ugh.... was not expecting that scum Dr. J flip, WTF...

Now I feel like I have to reevaluate everything once again. How many of Dr. J's scum partners do you believe were on his wagon? Given how universally townread Dr. J was, I think it's also possible neither of his scumbuddies were on his wagon.

This game just got much harder...

[volxen]

all due respect but

I called volxen was a better choice for heaven. I was a lot subtler about the fact we probably should have extractsd more content from Korina but in spite of that flip, it was a clearly scum motivated wagon and I'm proud I called for that to be avoided.

Ugh.... was not expecting that scum Dr. J flip, WTF...

Now I feel like I have to reevaluate everything once again. How many of Dr. J's scum partners do you believe were on his wagon? Given how universally townread Dr. J was, I think it's also possible neither of his scumbuddies were on his wagon.

This game just got much harder...

What do you think is more likely? Talk me through the wagon

I don't know right now, I'm so confused and shocked by Dr. J's flip. Obviously Keyser's theory about a TW/LabRat/Irellephant scumteam is wrong. At least one of you is town, and I need to find out which one of you that is...

[volxen]

all due respect but

I called volxen was a better choice for heaven. I was a lot subtler about the fact we probably should have extractsd more content from Korina but in spite of that flip, it was a clearly scum motivated wagon and I'm proud I called for that to be avoided.

Ugh.... was not expecting that scum Dr. J flip, WTF...

Now I feel like I have to reevaluate everything once again. How many of Dr. J's scum partners do you believe were on his wagon? Given how universally townread Dr. J was, I think it's also possible neither of his scumbuddies were on his wagon.

This game just got much harder...

What do you think is more likely? Talk me through the wagon

I don't know right now, I'm so confused and shocked by Dr. J's flip. Obviously Keyser's theory about a TW/LabRat/Irellephant scumteam is wrong. At least one of you is town, and I need to find out which one of you that is...

out of those 3 i definitely go labrat.

And out of TW and Irrelephant, who do you consider more likely to be scum? Irrelephant because he was on Dr. J's wagon?

[volxen]

You think scum-labrat is chainsaw defending scum-me on PAGE ONE against TWO PLAYERS?

I don't think it's too far-fetched that scum!Rat would chainsaw defend one of her scumbuddies against two players. And her two posts where she attacked both TW and Lefty for asking a question about your slot were on pages three and four, not on page one:

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way
OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.
Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

This was at the bottom of page three.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.
Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

And this was as the top of page four.

And both posts were written within seven minutes of each other, which makes it even more odd.

can you walk me through your thoughts when you were writing this volxen? what's the purpose of chainsaw defending somebody that early when suspicions are not set in stone?

At the time I wrote that post, Labrat was the player I was the most suspicious of, and I found it suspect that within a few minutes she attacked both TW and Lefty (your predecessor) for asking questions to each other about Keyser. I thought she might have been chainsaw defending Keyser because he was her scumbuddy.

Of course a lot has changed since then, as I think Keyser is town now.

[volxen]

You think scum-labrat is chainsaw defending scum-me on PAGE ONE against TWO PLAYERS?

I don't think it's too far-fetched that scum!Rat would chainsaw defend one of her scumbuddies against two players. And her two posts where she attacked both TW and Lefty for asking a question about your slot were on pages three and four, not on page one:

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way
OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.
Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

This was at the bottom of page three.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.
Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

And this was as the top of page four.

And both posts were written within seven minutes of each other, which makes it even more odd.

can you walk me through your thoughts when you were writing this volxen? what's the purpose of chainsaw defending somebody that early when suspicions are not set in stone?

At the time I wrote that post, Labrat was the player I was the most suspicious of, and I found it suspect that within a few minutes she attacked both TW and Lefty (your predecessor) for asking questions to each other about Keyser. I thought she might have been chainsaw defending Keyser because he was her scumbuddy.

Of course a lot has changed since then, as I think Keyser is town now.

Right I get that but I just want more detail on the "chainsaw defending Keyser because he was her scumbuddy" bit. What motivation exactly does Labrat have for doing that at the time, what's the point?

Because it's something scum frequently do (chainsaw defense), although TW makes a fair point that scum may be more likely to chainsaw defend a townie rather than a scumbuddy. Regardless, it just struck me as very odd that she attacked two different people who were asking each other questions about Keyser within a 7 minute period, and it came across to me like she was trying to shut down both questions (e.g., telling Lefty he should be doing something else).

[volxen]

Keyser my love if you had to dayvig someone based off rvs who would it be and why?

Don’t cross the line though or a tragedy may occur
That’s better
ԅ( ˘ω˘ԅ)
so many animal avatars in the game...

How were you familiar with my meta too (sheep wearing wolveskin - or Ducky in this scenario) THIS EARLY

Who told you about my relationship with Irrelphant?

You didn’t play WW.

@Labrat can you please answer the question regarding the Watcher Wanted meta? How were you aware of this so early on in this game when you didn't play Watcher Wanted?

[volxen]

VOTE: Irrelephant11

Irrelephant is at L-1

[volxen]

VOTE: Keyser Soze

[volxen]

VOTE: Keyser Söze

what's on your mind volxy

I'm disappointed you think I'm scum now, but admittedly I haven't been as active as I should be lately. I'll try to post more tomorrow, but I still think Keyser is town, and I guess I'm no longer strong town to you, so I'm voting for Keyser.

[volxen]

That's OK, net of all things I'm kinda predisposed towards townreading you here (that's a problem in itself which I think you can probably appreciate zzzz) it's just there's a lot of spice following the fact we nailed and lynched Irrelephant who is Good Scum

does you not being heavy town to me impact your read on my alignment? => why/why not?

@TW, in this post I pointed out how both you and Irrelephant give me an "easy" townread after I made my first five posts in the game. Irrelephant gave me the townread before you did:

Interesting thing here I noticed. Here are the first five posts I made in the game:

Post #1: 307:

Did you know?

Lions and tigers can crossbreed to create a species known as Ligers..

Votecount 1.03

the worst (3) - LabRat01, Keyser Soze, Irrelephant

Keyser Söze (2) - Lefty, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde
Carmen (1) - LabRat01,
Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde (1) - Carmen
LabRat01 (1) - the worst
Not Voting - Creature, volxen,

Time till end of hell phase 1: (expired on 2018-11-15 17:00:00)

I'm pretty sure there is at least one scum among [TW, Rat, Keyser, and Rel]. I don't think it's that likely that TW, as town, would get up to L-2 so quickly on the second day of day one with no scum involvement.

I don't think TW and Rat are scum together, with them cross voting each other, and with TW's detailed casing of Rat. It seems really unnecessary for them to try to mutually distance themselves and start wagons against each other this early on day one if they are scumbuddies.

I do wish TW would case Keyser to the same degree that he has cased Rat, but he seems to want to hold back on this for some reason.

Out of [TW, Rat], Rat definitely has far more scum equity in my opinion. TW's casing of Rat felt genuine, whereas Rat's interactions with others came off as scummy to me. For example:

wanna check it for me?

Nah, it's not there.

VOTE: Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

aww, that's a shame VOTE: carmen
I'm p sure some form of it should be there though, cuz the bracket thingy is written in my RC
wanna check it again? or are you lying in order for someone to notice this "contradiction" and derp you as town?

ugh, I was talking about the town RC if it wasn't obvious

I was re-reading the thread and noticed that my post could be understood as a disgusting joke
that vote was half-serious, it was not pure RvS, so read it as so

and c'mon, someone write sth
it's boring being here alone

I don't think Rat really had a good reason for "seriously" voting Carmen here, and she did say that the vote was "half-serious".

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way

OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.

Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

Why did Rat make such a big deal about this? All TW did was ask Lefty what he thought of Keyser's entrance -- I don't see how that's really LAMIST, which is what Rat seems to be implying here. Yes everyone should be sorting players and coming up with their own reads, but there is nothing wrong with asking player X what they think about player Y, as long as you are still sorting everyone else in addition to that. Rat seems to be suggesting that TW want's other people to sort Keyser for him so he doesn't have to do the work of sorting Keyser himself, which I don't think is accurate at all. She is also suggesting here that TW's motivation in asking the question was to appear LAMIST, as opposed to him actually wanting to know what Lefty thought of Keyser's entrance.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.

Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

Again, here Rat is criticizing someone for asking a question regarding Keyser. I don't think her criticism of Lefty was really warranted here -- he asks a question about Keyser, and she insinuates that his reason for asking the question was to appear like he was doing something, as opposed to it being a question he genuinely wanted answered. In other words, she is again suggesting that the motivation behind the question was to purposefully appear LAMIST, as opposed to it just being a question that Lefty wanted answered. It's just odd that on two different occasions, two different people ask a question about Keyser, and Rat attacks (unreasonably IMO) both TW and Lefty for asking their respective questions about Keyser. I would think town!Rat would understand that this game isn't just about everyone forming their own reads in isolation and then presenting their readslist to the rest of the group, but it's largely a game that involves interacting with everyone else to understand their motivations, which includes asking players questions such as, "what did you think about X from player Y?" The fact that Rat's initial reaction to both questions about Keyser was to immediately label them as attempts to be LAMIST rather than as genuine questions that were asked to gather information to help gamesolve, seems much more likely to come from scum than town.

VOTE: LabRat01

Post #2: 344

actually
VOTE: Creature

lynch this today for 11/10 guaranteed scumflip
send Dr. J to heaven tomorrow

if Lab/Keyser are town they can prove it

Why do you think Creature is scum, and why is he a better lynch than Rat?

Post #3: 349

@volxen putting associations, VCA and scum partner theories aside, are you t/reading the worst independently?

I don't feel comfortable giving TW a townread yet, no. I do think he made a good case against Rat, especially in post 297, and I do find Rat to have the most scum equity at the moment, but I'm not ready to write off TW as town yet either.

Where I am currently at is I find Dr. J to be the most towny player and Rat to be the most scummy player. I'm still kind of unsure on everyone else.

@Keyser, I am starting to get concerned that if Rat is scum, you could be one of her partners. As I pointed out earlier, it was just odd how quick she was to attack two different people for asking, in my opinion, completely legitimate questions about your slot. If she is scum it's possible that she is simply buddying/defending town!Keyser, but the way she wanted to shut down both questions about Keyser's slot could be indicative of SvS interactions. Keyser, if Rat is scum, why is TW more likely to be one of her partners than you?

But in any case, do you really think TW would gambit as scum and try to get his one of his scumbuddies sent to hell on day one? I would consider that quite a risky gambit because if he does that, then the only way he could win as scum is if both he and his remaining scumbuddy get sent to Heaven. So unless he's convinced that both he and his other scumbuddy could get a lot of towncredit for busing Rat, it seems like quite a risky play to open on day one by busing one of his partners in a game mode that, in my opinion, heavily discourages busing.

Post #4: 351

You think scum-labrat is chainsaw defending scum-me on PAGE ONE against TWO PLAYERS?

I don't think it's too far-fetched that scum!Rat would chainsaw defend one of her scumbuddies against two players. And her two posts where she attacked both TW and Lefty for asking a question about your slot were on pages three and four, not on page one:

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way
OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.
Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

This was at the bottom of page three.

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.
Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

And this was as the top of page four.

And both posts were written within seven minutes of each other, which makes it even more odd.

Post #5: 371

Out of [TW, Rat], Rat definitely has far more scum equity in my opinion. TW's casing of Rat felt genuine, whereas Rat's interactions with others came off as scummy to me. For example:
[quote="In post 307, volxen]

wanna check it for me?

Nah, it's not there.

VOTE: Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde

aww, that's a shame VOTE: carmen
I'm p sure some form of it should be there though, cuz the bracket thingy is written in my RC
wanna check it again? or are you lying in order for someone to notice this "contradiction" and derp you as town?

ugh, I was talking about the town RC if it wasn't obvious

I was re-reading the thread and noticed that my post could be understood as a disgusting joke
that vote was half-serious, it was not pure RvS, so read it as so

and c'mon, someone write sth
it's boring being here alone

I don't think Rat really had a good reason for "seriously" voting Carmen here, and she did say that the vote was "half-serious".

First off, volx seems to have read the thread till duck’s posts, so he should have also been aware of the whole conversation between me and korina. I don’t feel like going all over it again and this argument is

exactly

the same one I’ve been arguing with Korina about.

If he does fully understand why I pushed Carmen, I find it off that he’d find it important enough to mention here.
and if he disagreed to my answers to Korina’s pushes, he should have quoted those posts, not this one.

Him not doing that and including the exact same reasoning kinda feels like he made the argument just “to make the read look more townie/impressive” and doesn’t actually care to think about it seriously

how do you read Key's entrance to the thread btw? I wanna try and sort him as quickly as possible so I can comfortably resume quoting The Usual Suspects and burninating scum.

Was the “I wanna try to sort Key as quick as possible” supposed to be an excuse for asking Left to post reads?

No?
but it def feels that way

OR it feels like your question to Lefty was just an excuse to show off your great town motivations.

Which one do you pick?

I don’t like the previous post either (the one I joked about). It’s prob not directly scum motivated, but it feels a really safe and non-personal way of questioning someone.

Why did Rat make such a big deal about this? All TW did was ask Lefty what he thought of Keyser's entrance -- I don't see how that's really LAMIST, which is what Rat seems to be implying here.
Yes everyone should be sorting players and coming up with their own reads, but there is nothing wrong with asking player X what they think about player Y, as long as you are still sorting everyone else in addition to that.
Rat seems to be suggesting that TW wants other people to sort Keyser for him so he doesn't have to do the work of sorting Keyser himself, which I don't think is accurate at all.
She is also suggesting here that TW's motivation in asking the question was to appear LAMIST, as opposed to him actually wanting to know what Lefty thought of Keyser's entrance.

This one is actually fair, except the “why did rat make such a big deal of this?” part.
This is nearly the same thing as in the last part of the quote, but it’s more visible in the quote there, so just read it there, but it feels kinda fake to me that a player who’s capable of writing an elaborate analysis like this one would base his reads on reasons that are just so obviously wrong.

And the way he defended TW was funny imo. Prob too daring to be SvS, but I don’t think I can say anything more about that

What’s your take on Soze so far? Is the ‘I thought it was just two goons’ and then the break down of DrJ/Rat following that line of thought something you think they’d do/are capable of as scum?

You know, sth like that could prob be faked by a 5-year old.
Possibly younger

It kinda feels like you didn't want to appear useless so decided to write

anything

that might appear helpful without actually considering if it makes sense to ask about that.

Do not do it like that. If you want to do sth, you can comment on the stuff:
-I wrote about duck,
-keyser wrote about me&DrJ,
-DrJ wrote about me/keiser
-or w/e.
Just pick a wagon and go with it, there’s no need to be wary here

Again, here Rat is criticizing someone for asking a question regarding Keyser. I don't think her criticism of Lefty was really warranted here -- he asks a question about Keyser, and she insinuates that his reason for asking the question was to appear like he was doing something, as opposed to it being a question he genuinely wanted answered. In other words, she is again suggesting that the motivation behind the question was to purposefully appear LAMIST, as opposed to it just being a question that Lefty wanted answered.
It's just odd that on two different occasions, two different people ask a question about Keyser, and Rat attacks (unreasonably IMO) both TW and Lefty for asking their respective questions about Keyser.

Yes, I think Lefty’s post was lamist. I don’t think it’s necessarily scum indicative though, because awkwardness and not knowing what to write early in the game is not really scummy. Both town and scum can feel that way and even though his question/post wasn’t sincere imo, both alignments could have had their reasons for doing it.
The read was kind of a push, but it was also a suggestion to do sth else, because even if they’re town, their motivation isn’t difficult to notice and it’s gonna get them lynched if they keep doing that for a long time.

I would think town!Rat would understand that this game isn't just about everyone forming their own reads in isolation and then presenting their readslist to the rest of the group, but it's largely a game that involves interacting with everyone else to understand their motivations, which includes asking players questions such as, "what did you think about X from player Y?" The fact that Rat's initial reaction to both questions about Keyser was to immediately label them as attempts to be LAMIST rather than as genuine questions that were asked to gather information to help gamesolve, seems much more likely to come from scum than town.

VOTE: LabRat01

Here he pushes me for pushing others instead of asking for their motivations, which I find funny coming from someone with such a high game-count.
Even regardless of how many games he played, I find it hard to believe that a player who’s capable of writing such an elaborate analysis of my posts would be unaware that “pushing people” “allows you to read them better” and progresses the game, which is necessary at any point of the game.
Like, c’mon, he did play a lot of games on the site so he should have realized that if people ask questions, they’re most likely gonna get calm, composed answers, which aren’t really gonna help you do anything. Of course some people might just not like pushing others without a reason, but it doesn’t mean others can’t do that and everyone who pushes people early is scum.

Like, I really don’t want to believe that he’s being serious here. Him pushing me for that feels like he was just forcing himself to find a looong, non-sheepy reason for me being scum, without actually caring if it actually makes sense or not.
This post is long and I’ll give him credit for saying that the reasons behind my pushes were bad (even though they weren't), but the main part of it is just terribly empty.

And I don’t like how he disappeared right after writing that. Except the short VCA reasoning and TR on duck, he hasn’t done anything to progress the game, not even asking questions which he was pushing me for.
That’s just incredibly lazy

P.Edit…
Which just changed, so ignore that part.

If you are town, you are really misunderstanding why I am scumreading you -- or you are deliberately trying to misrepresent me if you are scum. I am not against aggressively pressuring and pushing people. I do it myself all the time, and I have even put someone at L-1 on page one of a newbie game as town (see: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77453) precisely because I wanted to pressure that person. The last thing I am against is pressuring people to see how they react.

No, my problem is that you tried to

shut down/discourage

legitimate questions from both TW and Lefty, both of which were questions about Keyser's slot. In your post you seem to be setting up this false dichotomy where a choice has to be made between questioning someone vs pressuring someone. Why does it have to be either or? You can certainly ask people legitimate questions while simultaneously pressuring them. You want to push TW and Lefty to see how they react? Fine, but you shouldn't be trying to shut down and discourage the legitimate questions they asked about Keyser's slot.

THAT

is what I have a problem with -- you could have pressured Lefty and TW without trying to shutdown their questions about Keyser.

I'm struggling to see the town motivation in trying to shutdown both of their respective questions about Keyser. I mean, if TW and Lefty are both town, think about it from their perspective. If they are both town, and they find one another to be townie, doesn't it make sense for them to talk to one another about Keyser, especially if they are both trying to get an accurate read on Keyser? I mean this is a team game after all, so it makes sense to discuss your reads and other slots with people you find to be towny. So they ask legitimate questions of each other about Keyser's slot, and then you come along and within seven minutes, write two back-to-back posts where you basically call both of them LAMIST, and tell both of them that they are wasting time by asking each other questions about Keyser's slot. But why call it a waste of time -- why assume the questions they were asking each other wouldn't help both of them get a better read on Keyser? Because if getting answers to their questions would help them to better sort Keyser, then it would be a pretty good usage of time, no?

Again the problem isn't that you were aggressive towards TW and Lefty, it's that you tried to "redirect" them away from talking about Keyser and questioning each other about Keyser, when I don't believe you had a legitimate reason for doing so. So yes, for now I am quite skeptical of your motivations.

So those were my first five posts. Then Irrelephant posts this in 377:

Mod I’m always v/la saturday & sunday

My one thought without fully catching up is this seems like a towny volxen, unless he’s trying very very hard to improve his scumgame (no nuance there)

And TW posts this in 410:

@volxen putting associations, VCA and scum partner theories aside, are you t/reading the worst independently?

I don't feel comfortable giving TW a townread yet, no. I do think he made a good case against Rat, especially in post 297, and I do find Rat to have the most scum equity at the moment, but I'm not ready to write off TW as town yet either.

Where I am currently at is I find Dr. J to be the most towny player and Rat to be the most scummy player. I'm still kind of unsure on everyone else.

@Keyser, I am starting to get concerned that if Rat is scum, you could be one of her partners. As I pointed out earlier, it was just odd how quick she was to attack two different people for asking, in my opinion, completely legitimate questions about your slot. If she is scum it's possible that she is simply buddying/defending town!Keyser, but the way she wanted to shut down both questions about Keyser's slot could be indicative of SvS interactions. Keyser, if Rat is scum, why is TW more likely to be one of her partners than you?

But in any case, do you really think TW would gambit as scum and try to get his one of his scumbuddies sent to hell on day one? I would consider that quite a risky gambit because if he does that, then the only way he could win as scum is if both he and his remaining scumbuddy get sent to Heaven. So unless he's convinced that both he and his other scumbuddy could get a lot of towncredit for busing Rat, it seems like quite a risky play to open on day one by busing one of his partners in a game mode that, in my opinion, heavily discourages busing.

This post is so so towny
god if I'm misreading volxen here I'm going to feel dumb as shit postgame

So after my first five posts, they both basically come to the exact same conclusion that I am obvious town in this game. And both of their respective townreads of me have to do with the fact that since I had no nuance with my fake reads as scum in Watcher Wanted, that that in and of itself proves that I am town in this game, since my reads are more nuanced in this game. But I was the first person lynched in Watcher Wanted, over two months ago in early September. As Ausuka pointed out, why would they believe that if I were scum in this game, that my play would be exactly the same as it was in Watcher Wanted? I'ts been over two months since that game ended for me, and I have played numerous games in that time. And beyond that, I've played with town!Irrelephant very recently (In Newbie 1894), and town!TW less recently (in Newbie 1888). In both of those games, neither of them pegged me as obvious town right off of the bat. In newbie 1888, TW hard scumread me on day 1 and pushed for my lynch, and only came around to townreading me on day 2. And in Newbie 1894, Irrelephant was skeptical of my slot all the way until lylo, when my lack of quickhammering proved that I was town. And I don't think I am more super obvious town in this game compared to either of those other games, so something doesn't add up here because the town!TW and town!Irrelephant that I know don't give out such strong townreads so easily and so early on in the game.

Keyser's skepticism towards my slot, which eventually lead to a townread but only after several real-time interactions between us, feels very natural and towny.

Do you think Irrelephant is more likely to give me an "easy" townread like that If I am scum or town? I known I'm town, and it came across to me like he chose me to be one of his townreads beforehand because he knew it would be easy for him to justify his townread of me. I found it suspicious -- even more suspicious than your initial "easy" townread of me -- because his only previous experience with me was Watcher Wanted (where I was scum) and Newbie 1894 (where I was town). Whereas you and I have played together in Newbie 1885 (where I was town), Newbie 1888 (where I was town), Watcher Wanted (where I was scum), and Newbie 1894 (where I was town). You have a lot more experience playing with me (especially with playing with

town me

) than Irrelephant does, which is why your "easy" townread of me is more believable than Irrelephant's. You've seen town!me in three different games, Irrelephant has only seen it in one, and yet he almost instantly declared me as town in this game.

Do you really think Irrelephants treatment of my slot is more likely SvS rather than TvS/buddying?

[volxen]

I know I'm sounding like a broken record fam but there is a wolf left. who is it?

If you're asking me, volxen. I believe it makes more sense than anything else.

Except I'm not scum, so it's concerning that you've "settled" on me being scum as the explanation for everything. So why does me being scum "make more sense than anything else"?

[volxen]

yea I think we need to flip volx via Hell phase before endgame
especially being w/w with rel who has solid meta knowledge of him I'm..... not really comfortable he's done anything not coachable and I'm worried I am being Wrong and Bad

Sigh, if you are town this is Newbie 1888 all over again. I'm not sure why me being scum and being coached by Irrelephant is the most likely explanation to you. I mean you have more knowledge of my meta than Irrelephant does.

And why are you so convinced that Ausuka and Labrat are both town? The only person I really feel strongly about being town at this point is Keyser.

[volxen]

yea I think we need to flip volx via Hell phase before endgame
especially being w/w with rel who has solid meta knowledge of him I'm..... not really comfortable he's done anything not coachable and I'm worried I am being Wrong and Bad

Sigh, if you are town this is Newbie 1888 all over again. I'm not sure why me being scum and being coached by Irrelephant is the most likely explanation to you. I mean you have more knowledge of my meta than Irrelephant does.

And why are you so convinced that Ausuka and Labrat are both town? The only person I really feel strongly about being town at this point is Keyser.

ok...so you have 1 townread when except Dr. J who is flipped scum in a 9p game with 6 town...?

can you throw me a tiered read list with some reasoning please? we have two lynches left before judgement day and can send two people to heaven who need to make a correct decision.

I don't have a tiered reads list at the moment, but I'm going to look through Irrelephant's and Dr. J's ISO's to look for associatives that may reveal the last scum.

[volxen]

So here are all of Irrelephant's tiered reads list:

...
I don't think you're scum here. You're right that it died somewhere between 547 and 552
Also I went back to re-read American Presidents and I think I was conflating it with your play in Watchmen Wanted. You have a few tonal moments of similarity, but you're right that it is probably mostly personality

Spoiler: this is like sorta similar to your early play here, but

1218 WIFOMy as fuck but I actually kinda agree that Gamma's scumflip spews Gustavo as town.

Keyser's take on Irrelephant/self TvT read my mind. actually being itt both of them feel legit.

1231 doesn't feel like town reacting to a case scum is making on them. @Gamma do you feel grossly misrepped by town!Key or actually think scum!Key is pushing you? it feels like you're not really willing to commit to either take?

nauci is probably town too

super interested in why you think this, the nullness of my read on Nauci is like. nibbling at the back of my skull.

i kinda want a mom wagon to be a thing

my gut's screaming that gamma is a mislynch. it doesn't really feel like a wagon on scum to me

what part of the wagon composition is bugging you? note for myself to reconsider this.

idk that you've ever as town said that "nibbling at the back of my skull" thing (which I think you have said this game) but I doubt I just found a magical tell for you, so... great!

{me}
{tw,

volxen, DrJ

}
{labrat}
{Carmen, lefty} - null
{keyser}
{creature}

okay actually a few thoughts before I go because the game isn't playable without all slots talking:

I still think tw is probably town, I just didn't feel good post-creature flip about his strong push there. But otoh the intensity of his push rang towny (not sure tw gets that intense against a friend just for a d1 mislynch), and imo creature was playing scummy anyway. Eh I still have bad feelings here, but the game makes more sense to me if he's town
Ausuka made some good points about volxen's play that, especially depending on who volxen is scum with, bring volxen back toward possible-scum, even though I still lean town for him too. Ausuka is also very bold if scum, challenging commonly held ideas.
Keyser/eragon always has a scum, possibly two. Keyser seems overeager to throw shade, eragon seem undereager to solve, both have strong scumgames and I wouldn't put it past them to manage to both be offwagon
I have literally no clue what to do with labrat because I've seen p much nothing from the slot d2 and only remember the keyser push from d1

Hot take: DrJ is the townie with the worst reads so far, which is why he is easy to wagon this game phase. Paranoid about the very popular push to Heaven them, but maybe scum are just looking to lynch townies in every phase idk.

Something like:
{me}
{the worst}
{

volxen

, ausuka,

DrJ

}
{labrat} - null
{keyser, eragon}

ausuka should maybe be a scumread, I haven't had time to analyze trajectory, just getting town from the bold play
I'm mentally on page 51, so do with this what you will

{keyser, volxen}
{the worst}
{labrat}
--
{eragon, ausuka}

I searched Irrelephant's ISO for the "{" character, so I believe those are all of his tiered reads list from the beginning of the game up until his lynch. Notice how I have not only always been a townread for him,

but he also always had Dr. J and I at the same level in his tiers

.

TW you earlier said that scum usually don't put both of their partners in the same tier:

Also, quick readslist:
{DrJ}
{Volxen, Eragon}
{Irrel, Ausuka, TW}
{} - Null
{Lab(?), Soze(?)}
{Creature}
{}

Isn't it said 'always keep your teammate around null'?

But in practice it's pretty rare to see both teammates in the same tier

Which is interesting, because Dr. J had you and Irrelephant in the same tier in that reads list, and Irrelephant had Dr. J and I in the same tier in all of his reads list. I think it's more likely that Irrelephant had his other partner as a nullread or a scumread.

Do you think this is suggestive of us both being town? If not, why do you think scum!Irrelephant would be inclined to not only townread both of his partners, but also put them both at the same tier level in his reads list, which you said yourself is rare?

I'll search Dr. J's ISO for the "{" character and look through all of his reads list so we can cross reference Dr. J's tiered reads lists with Irrelephant's tiered reads lists. I'm thinking that neither of them are likely to have listed both of their partners as townreads.

[volxen]

{Keyser}
{everyone else}
ain't a read list when there's 1 of 6 scum left pal
you also seem to be not.... townreading me..... because I'm reconsidering my read on you?

I'm struggling to see your town motive rn

My town motive is that I think looking at Dr. J's and Irrelephant's ISO's and interactions for associatives is more beneficial than me producing a tiered reads list at the moment.

[volxen]

So I searched Dr. J's ISO for the "{" character and this was his only reads list:

there's a character limit of 3 million

I think it's 300,000 but still

It is, I can't count.

there's a character limit of 3 million, which I broke, by a lot.

asdfghjjkl;

what

Exactly.

Also, I'm not gonna bother doing catchup atm, since it took me two hours and was a bitch to post, so, while I'm here for 30ish min, ama.

Also, quick readslist:
{DrJ}
{Volxen, Eragon}
{

Irrel, Ausuka, TW

}
{} - Null
{Lab(?), Soze(?)}
{Creature}
{}

This was based on me reading back and my initial thoughts from it.
lmk if you want me to explain any.

-Kor

Dr. J put you, Ausuka, and Irrelephant at the same tier in his single reads list.

While Dr. J was alive, Irrelephant was consistent about putting both Dr. J and I at the same tier in his first two reads lists. In Irrelephant's first reads list he also put you in the same tier as Dr. J, and in his second reads list he put Ausuka at the same tier as Dr. J.

So how much stock do you put in your theory that scum would not put both of their partners in the same tier in their reads lists? Because if that's the case then you, Ausuka, and I are all very unlikely to be scum.

[volxen]

sorry dude I need you to find scum not towncase yourself

the { bracket tell is also a really broad tell and isn't like, something that's particularly reliable in practice. the moment scum know not to do it they start doing it etc. it's less common than putting all your buddies in different brackets but that absolutely doesn't mean I can afford to townread someone exclusively off their position in someone's read list

I'm markedly more interesting in hearing who you think reds here and how we use our last two mislynches. but while we're on the subject do you think there were exchanges between you and rel which are highly unlikely to come from scumbuddies?

I find it interesting that you would state that it's "pretty rare" when Keyser quoted Dr. J's reads list showing you in the same tier as Irrelephant, but when I show two reads lists from Irrelephant where I'm listed in the same tier as Dr. J it's meaningless? You don't get to have it both ways TW. Don't be hypocritical because I will call you out on it.

I mean either it's "pretty rare" for scum to list both of their partners in the same tier or it isn't. If isn't something that's reliable, then why did you even say that in response to Keyser quoting Dr. J's reads list showing you in the same tier as Irrelephant?

[volxen]

Why can't town!TW come up with any other explanation besides "this is scum!Volxen being coached by Irrelephant?"

[volxen]

slipped onto a pc

so at this point town's win condition is to correctly lynch town to heaven (stick with obvious town; we have exactly two heaven phases left which means two heavily-townread players gets us to judgement day even if we don't lynch scum).

scum's win condition is now one of two things:
1) if they're outside of the PoE, get themselves into heaven. if a wolf is outside the PoE it's literally Keyser and i'm ok with that being a town loss 99% of the time
2) if they're within the PoE, they need to look enough like town to survive until judgement day and hope like shit that they're not sent to hell. secondary agenda here is to throw shade at the more communally townread players.

your play right now is betraying an agenda. you are not interested in determining who a wolf is. you're interested in discrediting scumreads on you, positioning a more heavily townread player (me : D) as having malicious intentions, and trying to look town.

=> you're currently playing to a scum wincon.

hell 1 your posting was a lot closer to your town meta. that's either you organically being town or rel (who has a decent idea of what i look for from town!you) is coaching you; that's fine. rel was also pretty quick to feathersoft defend you on the basis of meta which as much as i agreed with it earlier in the game, is partner indicative. if ballsy.

heaven 1 you were pretty much fine

hell 2 you lurked hard.

and now here we are and you look exactly like a wolf who's in trouble

You aren't obvtown to me, and I know I'm town. So yeah, I don't agree with me being lynched in the next Hell phase and you being lynched in the next Heaven phase after this one. Fmpov, how is that me not playing to the town win condition? I know I'm town, and therefore don't want to be lynched during the Hell phase. I'm not convinced that you are town, and therefore don't want you to be lynched in the next Heaven phase. Why is that an unreasonable stance for town!Volxen to have?

We do agree on lynching Keyser in this Heaven phase. Besides me, who else would you be willing to lynch in the next Hell phase? And besides yourself, who else would you be willing to send in the next Heaven phase after this one?

[volxen]

so if you're town and i'm misreading you, own the fact i am clearly town and am misreading you. take a step back and look at your play here and fill in the following form with some reasoning so we can get crackin' on winning this sucker

Heaven 2:

{player here}

Hell 3:

{player here}

Heaven 3:

{player here}

Hell 4:

{player here}

Judgement Day:

{player} vs. {player}


just swinging back to WW for a sec, if you can accept that you do look like a wolf rn it's okay to suggest yourself in the hell / judgement day brackets

I'm not sure yet if this is literally day 1 of Newbie 1888 all over again and you are just misreading me, or if this is scum!TW. It does seem odd that you heavily townread me while Irrelephant was alive, but now that's hes been lynched and is confirmed scum you have a strong scumread of me that revolves around the theory that everything I've been doing in this game has been coached by Irrelephant. It seems like your scumread of me is contingent specifically on the idea that I am being coached on what to do by Irrelephant, as opposed to me making my own plays. At this point in time I don't think you should be immune from Hell.

And also, why does the coaching theory only apply to Irrelephant and not Dr. J? Sure I've never played with either of Korina or LCPL before, but they are pretty good at scum, and they would arguably be able to coach me just as Irrelephant could. I'm just not understanding how I went from "obvtown" to you to "he's scum being coached by Irrelephant". Would you be scumreading me if Irrelephant were still alive?

For Heaven 3 me or Eragon.

[volxen]

@TW, if I get lynched in the Hell phase and flip green, do you still think you deserve to be sent to Heaven in Heaven 3?

[volxen]

If I get lynched in the Hell phase, then TW absolutely should not be sent to Heaven in Heaven 3 upon seeing my green flip.

[volxen]

Your entire basis for even suggesting I'm scum is based on burden of proficiency... I'm actually thinking this might be too wolfy to be decisively wolf indicative. you were a lot less decisive in WW. tbh I'm fine with not being sent to heaven in the next heaven phase but I want a decent substitute.

but like... what's your solve?

I feel like I need to figure your slot out, which is not necessarily easy. I've seen both your town game and and your scum game, but I'm still not sure about you. I mean you did push me and tunnel me pretty aggressively in Newbie 1888, so you tunneling me in and of itself is not necessarily AI for you. It's not so much you scumreading me in and of itself that's making me worried about your slot, it's that your scumread of me seems to be contingent on Irrelephant's red flip..... and the fact that me being scum was the only explanation that you were offering.

I think I should start with sorting your slot.... because you and I both have a history of misreading each other. I need to know if this is town!TW I am dealing with, so I'll start by looking through your ISO and interactions with Dr. J and Irrelephant.

Are you absolutely convinced my flip will help guarantee town wins? If I flip green during the next Hell phase, what then? Who do you lynch in the following Hell phase? When I flip green and your scumread of me is proven wrong, how do you move forward?

[volxen]

skip over sorting me for now; let's just not heaven me today. we can sort each other in hell 3 pretty easily.

how do you feel about Eragon Ausuka and Labby?

OK, I'll start with those 3. I had Eragon and Keyser as strong townreads on day 2, but I'll take another look at Eragon. Then I'll look at Ausuka next and Labrat last.

[volxen]

I still think Eragon is town, I need to look at Ausuka though.

[volxen]

skip over sorting me for now; let's just not heaven me today. we can sort each other in hell 3 pretty easily.

how do you feel about Eragon Ausuka and Labby?

OK, I'll start with those 3. I had Eragon and Keyser as strong townreads on day 2, but I'll take another look at Eragon. Then I'll look at Ausuka next and Labrat last.

I still think Eragon is town, I need to look at Ausuka though.

sorry dude I was looking for like... a lot more on this... what did you reevaluate and why are you confident eragon is still town?

if you're not teh scumz who is and why? + allow we have two lynches that CAN BE MISLYNCHES.....before judgement day

who's towny enough for heaven besides keyser and why am I not?

At the moment I am convinced that {Keyser, Eragon} are town which means scum is among {TW, Ausuka, Labrat}.

If I become confirmed town via flipping, is Eragon your next top suspect? You seem to be convinced that both Ausuka and Labrat are town.

I could ask you the same regarding why am I not towny enough for Heaven. I was your top pick for Heaven, even above Dr. J., until Irrelephant flipped red.

[volxen]

Maybe we should send you to Heaven today, because if your solve is "lynch Volxen = town win" then we are seriously in trouble. Especially if you push for Eragon's lynch following my green flip.

[volxen]

VOTE: The Worst

[volxen]

Yeah, I didn't like Volxen's vote there on TW.
Volxen should be voting in:

"At the moment I am convinced that {Keyser, Eragon} are town"

This is no time to act in pride and prove a point to a player you're not even hard town reading... it's reckless...


Scum only need one more player in heaven, correct?

My concern is that if TW is town, he is wrong on one of Labrat or Ausuka, but I don't know if he will ever see that. His plan is to lynch me in the next hell phase, and then after I flip green he will want to lynch Eragon in the next one. That is his "plan" that he has laid out repeatedly.

Keyser you are my strongest townread, but I'm also concerned that TW might cost us the game because I believe he has locktowned scum. I don't want the martyrs to have to choose between lynching Labrat or Ausuka on judgement day.

If you and TW are both town, I would prefer for you to stick around in the game. And Eragon is hard townreading TW, so I'm taking that into account, and I do believe this could just be town!TW hard tunneling me as he has done this before as town.

[volxen]

I wanted to actually re-read TW next...

I know we keep saying 'he's out his scum-range', but we/I need to make sure of that today (if I get the martyr kill, I want to rid all my paranoia today).

Do you want to go to Heaven today, or do you want to stick around? I think our chances of winning are better if you stick around. I would also be willing to send Eragon to Heaven, but I don't want town!TW to cost us the game because he has locktowned both Ausuka and Labrat.

[volxen]

once again volxen you're fearmongering really unconvincingly. I don't think you believe what you're saying. It sounds like you're a caught wolf who's realised he's lost so doesn't wanna sink time into the game but is honourable enough not to throw in the towel.

If you're town please get to work on convincing me of either
1) town!Eragon, or
2) either of your scumreads on Ausuka and Labby

Can you explain why it has to be me or Eragon? That's what I'm most concerned about. Me flipping green wouldn't even help you to get on the right track, because then you will just hone in on Eragon. If one of {Volxen, Eragon} gets mislynched that's one thing, but if both of us get mislynched it's going to make it significantly more difficult to win this game.

This is why I want to Keep Keyser in the game, because I trust him more than you to correctly solve this game.

[volxen]

The last remaining scum is either Labrat or Ausuka. I seriously don't know why you are townreading those two TW.

Hopefully Keyser can lead us to victory.

[volxen]

eh you can't talk to me

@Keys/Era I'm trusting you guys to be hypercritical of volxen even though he's townreading you.

Look I don't know which one of {Labrat, Ausuka} is scum yet, but I'm townreading both Keyser and Eragon strongly enough to know it's not either of them. So by POE I know one of {Ausuka, Labrat} is scum. You are confirmed town at this point unless you are trolling all of us post Heaven hammer.

What's wrong with my approach exactly? I could either directly scumhunt, or I can townhunt + POE. You yourself seem to townhunt + POE often enough, so I don't know whats unreasonable about me coming to the conclusion that one of {Ausuka, Labrat} is scum via my strong townreads on {Keyser, Eragon}. That being said, when I get some time I will look more at Ausuka and Labrat to try and get a more definitive read on both of them, but at this point I am 99.99% convinced that one of them is scum. Period.

[volxen]

And also @TW, if you agree with me on my Keyser and Eragon townreads (which I guess you do since you talked about sending Eragon to Heaven?), then what is wrong with me concluding that one of {Ausuka, Labrat} is scum, given that I know I am town?

What are you wanting from me exactly? I know I'm town, I'm convinced that Keyser and Eragon are both town, you are presumed confirm town at this point, which leaves only two people who can be scum.

If we lose to scum!Labrat or scum!Ausuka I am seriously going to be disappointed, because it's obvious to me that one of them is scum and there is no reason for town to lose this.

[volxen]

@TW if I do end up getting lynched, who do you think is more likely out of {Labrat, Ausuka} to be scum? Please let us know that while you are still able to post here.

[volxen]

@Eragon, yes, I think Keyser should be one of the last two people left because he is a universal townread. If the last two people left are {Keyser, X}, it's like a 99.99% certainty the marytr's will choose to lynch X over Keyser, which means the only way town loses is if Keyser is scum. So we should never send Keyser to Heaven. This is also why I wanted to send TW over Keyser to Heaven in the end.

I guess in the end the other lynches/mislynches don't matter, but I honestly think we will just outright win if we lynch Labrat or Ausuka today. I still think I may have been correct with my initial scumread of Labrat, but I will have to look over her ISO and interactions again.

[volxen]

VOTE: Labrat

I think my initial instincts regarding Labrat were correct. We should just lynch her and finish this game already.

Hell 3: Labrat (we most likely just win right here)
Heaven 3: Eragon
Hell 4: Ausuka

I know I'm not scum, but even from an objective viewpoint scum!me would have no path to victory, because if I was scum here that would leave {Keyser, Volxen} as the last two people, and the martyr's in Heaven would just lynch me.

As Eragon pointed out, the game is already won for town as long as both Keyser and Eragon are town, which I strongly believe to be the case.

Labrat even if you manage to get me mislynched today, you aren't winning this game as scum. And neither is Ausuka winning this as scum.

[volxen]

If I get mislynched today, then I expect you two (Keyser and Eragon) to lynch Labrat in the next Hell phase, and Eragon should be sent to Heaven next. So If Ausuka is scum then the last two will be {Keyser, Ausuka} and the martyr's can lynch Ausuka.

Don't mess this up and allow scum!Labrat or scum!Ausuka to win.

[volxen]

@Labrat,

The soonest I would be able to do a serious ISO dive on you would be Friday or this weekend. But I know the last scum is you or Ausuka. I'm not worried about getting mislynched, because I know I'm town and me getting mislynched won't cost town the game, provided Keyser and Eragon listen to me.

If I am mislynched today then do this do win the game:

Heaven 3: Eragon
Hell 4: Labrat

Then the last two are {Keyser, Ausuka}. Martyr's lynch Ausuka and GG. This doesn't need to be complicated.

[volxen]

Today for me is about solidifying my read on Eragon. That’s the game clincher here.
If he’s town, we’ve won.

Won’t be online til end of Friday. May pop in here and there until then. Sorry people x

Wait, you still have doubts about Eragon being town?

[volxen]

@TW, thanks for getting me my first mislynch as town buddy! Lol

And thanks for lolhammering me @Keyser!

But I knew the last scum had to be Labrat or Ausuka, as Keyser and Eragon were basically locktown for me. I should have looked more at Ausuka individually though, as I got distracted big time by Labrat.

@TW why did you have Ausuka as basically locktown prior to you being sent to Heaven? I really didn't understand why you and Keyser were townreading Ausuka so heavily. To me the only obvtown players in the game towards the end were Keyser and Eragon. Why did you find Ausuka more towny than Eragon?

[volxen]

carmen getting replaced by Eragon was v upsetting
Lefty getting replaced by ausuka was fun - ausuka did great carrying the game.

We should have Heaven’d volxen!!! My biggest regret

Why do you regret not sending me to Heaven?

[volxen]

Can't wait to see scumchat and martyr chat

[volxen]

@Irrelephant, were you laughing in scumchat over the fact that everyone basically clinged on to the whole "Volxen is being coached by Irrelephant theory"? I thought that was kind of funny to be honest.

[volxen]

Haha no, the funny part of scumchat is much weirder than that

I regret not sending you to heaven because I think scum’s best bet in this setup is to get to judgment day ASAP, and I think we wasted DrJ’s towncred on Heaven when it could have been used to bring about a lot more confusion and mislynches

Is this what you wanted to do all along though? Did you have a disagreement in scum chat over sending Dr. J to Heaven first?

[volxen]

@Labrat, did me hard scumreading you factor into your scumread of me at all? This is something I have been curious about.

[volxen]

@mod, Will you be releasing the dead thread, Mafia PT, and Heaven martyr PT soon?