Open 741: Red Flag [Endgame]

[LolWagons]

VOTE: Mastina

[LolWagons]

Ah, good. I actually voted mafia.

It’s interesting you mentioned your own survival through the night but didn’t mention anything about waiting to scumhunt post-flip. When I replaced in I didn’t even bother until I saw the nightkill, because I wasn’t about to read and have to go back and reread again with another flip in the same 48 hour period.

[LolWagons]

That posts seems much more like someone trying to make sure they feign ignorance of the nightkill than a townie who replaced in actually realizing the implications of an unknown on their first post.

[LolWagons]

Riiiiight, which is all fine and dandy but you did plug that you didn’t know if you were going to die which felt really forced.

[LolWagons]

Is your RC read contingent on your other reads being correct?

I read that slot as town.

[LolWagons]

Are you a mastin alt?

[LolWagons]

Are you a mastin alt?

No, mastin is me. This is my main account. mastina is the name I go by now. I've retired the mastin2 account for well over a year now--almost two, in fact.

Ah, well I don’t know if you remember but it’s Slaxx.

And I literally always scumread you. I still have a slight scumread on your predecessor but now that I know who you are I’m pretty much back to where I was before you started posting.

[LolWagons]

You wanna throw me a bone on why? Volxen ISO is a lot of playing defense and obsession with self-image in the eyes of other players.

[LolWagons]

What scumteam doesn't kill me last night

1) A scumteam with you on it which I’m heavily doubting
2) A scumteam threatened by Nu

There’s a third option but I’m not ready to disclose it yet. But if you’re as good as I think you are you might pick up on it.

[LolWagons]

I think lolwagons/mastina has a somewhat higher chance of being s/s because of the firebringer replace?

You think a player pushed for a mislynch, got it, replaced out... and in that scenario is more likely to be mafia?

[LolWagons]

I lack actual reads, whatever

VOTE: lolwagons

How do you not have reads >_> seems like a copout

[LolWagons]

You wanna throw me a bone on why? Volxen ISO is a lot of playing defense and obsession with self-image in the eyes of other players.

@RC

Answer this. Why is Volxen/Mastina town?

[LolWagons]

I will hard effort this game just not yet

Was that in response to my request?

[LolWagons]

Oh my god you’re both so wordy.

[LolWagons]

Mastina, would you wagon GE with me? Pin expressed interest too.

I think that’s the correct first wagon today.

[LolWagons]

Don't think the harshness will actually affect someone perception of your scum read on me unless you're attacking me as a person cuz they're also supposed to be game solving/taking your words with a grain of salt.

Odd

[LolWagons]

I'm leaving out anything before Official start which is #94. GE Iso (Things in Parentheses could be debatable as to which category they fit best in) :

RQS: 99, 120, 303
Self-Defense: 104, 120, 123, 143, 212, 227, 323, 463, 593, 597, 605, 610, 946, 953, (1012), (1015), (1016), (1024), (1026), 1029,
Opinions w/out Substance: 106, (127), 148, 588, 712, 1097
Reads with Substance: 166, (311), 313
Non-Defensive Interaction with Others: 123, 129, (147), 158, 207, 240, 334, 464, [549, 564, 571, 573, 575, 581], 585, 632, 713, 781, 888, 891, 911, 913, 1003, 1010, 1046, 1062
Tangentially Game-Related or Filler: 124, 125, 126, 179, 213, 225, 267, 349, 466, 548, 638, 641, 749, 810, 910, 955, 957, 1032, 1044, 1048

Can't Tell?: 250, 613

What the fuck is 578 I can't decipher it.

You can go through these 1 by 1 if you wish but GE looks a lot like a player who is trying to look busy and look like he is having an impact without ever really throwing the hat in the ring. The breakdown in posting is:

33% Tangents/Fluff/Unexplained Reads
26% Self-Defense (I define this as not necessarily being defensive, but being overly concerned with the posturing of your slot with the town or subtly trying to posture)
4% RQS

So we are at about two-thirds mostly meaningless interaction in terms of driving the game forward. I want to note that everyone is allowed to defend themselves, but if you look at his ISO, he seems overly concerned about posturing and everyone's read on him.

The other 37% is reads with rationale and Non-Defensive Interaction With Others (But the vast majority of this -90% or so-is the latter).

Even within those posts (I highly recommend everyone read them, I basically distilled this ISO for you) there isn't a lot of meaningful interaction going on. the only parts of the ISO I really felt like were sincere attempts to drive conversation were the section in brackets, but I'm not as confident as I was that was town when I look through the rest of the ISO. I also find it odd that in one point of the game there was this groundswell of thought that Gamma was being useful and it seemed a bit ubiquitous for a while. Retroactively I don't see that.


Anyway, VOTE: GammaEmerald

This is a good way to go.

[LolWagons]

Pin, Mastina:

No take backsies. Wagon up.

[LolWagons]

okay holy shit nvm you're all way too high intensity for me
i can't even bring myself to read all this

Just take my word for it and help me wagon Gamma

[LolWagons]

I used numbers and science.

[LolWagons]

numbers AND science? next you're gonna tell me you used algorithms too

I’ll tell you what I need to for a wagon to get going lmfao

[LolWagons]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Mastina if you're wrong with this, my vote tomorrow will be parked on you. You are misreping the whole blackjack situation so if Gamma is town, I'm expecting you going for me tomorrow instead of the other players you have named and your scumread on me is poor, very poor. Your whole premise is how some players are related to Gamma

Thanks Pikachu sorry I bought let’s go evee

The fact people are dodging talking about the wagon makes me feel good about it. Full steam ahead.

[LolWagons]

tbh I think John Barrowman is better looking

Wrong

[LolWagons]

He's pretty cute ngl

I can unvote now

UNVOTE:

We're not lynching gamma today btw

Let’s fight about it

[LolWagons]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Mastina if you're wrong with this, my vote tomorrow will be parked on you. You are misreping the whole blackjack situation so if Gamma is town, I'm expecting you going for me tomorrow instead of the other players you have named and your scumread on me is poor, very poor. Your whole premise is how some players are related to Gamma

Thanks Pikachu sorry I bought let’s go evee

The fact people are dodging talking about the wagon makes me feel good about it. Full steam ahead.

Dodnig talking about if how? It’s the only fucking thing people have voted today.

Demonstrably false if anyone would like to go back and see for themselves I’d encourage it. Also I think that was only two votes?

More hyper-defensiveness

[LolWagons]

Oh in terms of the fight I meant on the lynch.

Jensen Ackles is the penultimate man.

[LolWagons]

Oompa oompa oompa Dee doo

Waiting for wagons to stick like some glue

Oompa oompa oompa Dee Dee

If you are lost you can always sheep me

[LolWagons]

Where you at Mastina? Hop on the wagon.

We have LINENS and FOOD SUPPLY and are free of DYSENTERY.

[LolWagons]

Fucking shit y’all are dramatic. It’s a social game be less anti-social. I can only replace in to so many slots on the site.

[LolWagons]

nah i live for drama this is great
wanna be archenemies, lolwagons

Sure!

[LolWagons]

tomorrow would be lylo.

fun times

VOTE: Clemency

Ew what the fuck is that

[LolWagons]

the fun zone that's what

MY wagon has a ball pit.

Seriously though bad vote.

[LolWagons]

I mean I know you don’t want to vote your partner but you can afford another lynch it’s fine

[LolWagons]

I'm going to bed now but like I'm pretty sure pintu spews gamma town so just don't

I’m not particularly keen on listening to you to be honest. You have this air about you that expects me to listen to what you say and I’m over it.

[LolWagons]

Oh my god you people

What’s the point sorting through your null reads if they’re all still null

[LolWagons]

Clemency it’s not even a good debate club it’s like topic is Climate Change and one guy is talking about the second amendment and the other one is like “trust me guys the climate is changing I’ll talk more tomorrow”

[LolWagons]

And how the fuck are you surprised he only has 30 posts I’m surprised every time I see him on the vote tally because he never posts. 30 seems high like Christ what the hell

[LolWagons]

i chose a good arch nemesis
you can be the doug judy to my jake peralta

I don’t know either but I’ll trust you that they are nemeses

[LolWagons]

He lurked as town recently but was more engaged so idk

[LolWagons]

Oh my god you people

What’s the point sorting through your null reads if they’re all still null

Please talk about my reads, don’t undermine them.
Are these players nullish to you?

Thanks

Not saying your reads are bad saying you told us you were going to sort through them which I think understandably gave us the expectation they’d be something other than null. In a game starved of content that’d be a welcome addition.

Ceejay lurked as town but was on all the right wagons and he wound up being town. He was, qualitatively, more engaged last game I played with him as town. I don’t think his play here is as engaged so I have him tilt scum.

Clemency is playing how I figured he would. He’s a tough read but if there was a gun to my head I’d say town.

[LolWagons]

YOU THINK LACKING READS ON DAY TWO IS A TOWNTELL ARE YOU FUCKING WITH ME

[LolWagons]

Well shit I take it back

I take it ALL BACK

I don’t have any reads now! I don’t want to play! Am I town now?

[LolWagons]

Reacting strongly to crazy reads is scummy but throwing up your arms and going “damn lol I pushed d1 now I’m just so darn tiyarrrrrrrd” is a fresh-fucking-green pasture towntell

OkAy

[LolWagons]

that being said this is kind of a small thing and I only noticed it now because people brought attention to gamma. I'm not super excited by default about the prospect of sheeping mastina's meta guilty

I'm still townreading pin but I'd like to hear rc's theory, I hope it's interesting because we're super bored

Luckily I wrote up a whole post on how his whole presence this game has been self-defense and active lurking so you can sheep that if you feel better

[LolWagons]

his meta is super active-lurky, and my secondhand information is that he's actually less active-lurky as scum on average?

this one is interesting though because he was just in a game with me so I'd think he would actually have something to say about a case based on me acting different than my town meta

He’s literally gone like 90 posts with about 5 worth of content. I’d be really surprised on a town flip.

[LolWagons]

sheep us!

vote volxen

In that one post you’re probably more engaged with town than Gamma has been

[LolWagons]

Reacting strongly to crazy reads is scummy but throwing up your arms and going “damn lol I pushed d1 now I’m just so darn tiyarrrrrrrd” is a fresh-fucking-green pasture towntell

OkAy

I read tone, that’s my thing. Believable shifts in WIM is very indicative IMO.

You don’t think that kind of thing is easily fakable by scum? If it worked for you in the past more power to you but I can’t wrap my mind around less transparency and activity being a towntell.

MAYBE a PR tell but there aren’t any in this game so

Also I’m not even disagreeing with your read, I just think out of all the things to pull to support it that came off as super contrived

[LolWagons]

Also sorry for “overreacting” but sometimes throwing hissy fits spurs activity. I’m hoping people will skim the thread and see the caps lock and actually become interested

[LolWagons]

Reacting strongly to crazy reads is scummy but throwing up your arms and going “damn lol I pushed d1 now I’m just so darn tiyarrrrrrrd” is a fresh-fucking-green pasture towntell

OkAy

I read tone, that’s my thing. Believable shifts in WIM is very indicative IMO.

You don’t think that kind of thing is easily fakable by scum? If it worked for you in the past more power to you but I can’t wrap my mind around less transparency and activity being a towntell.

MAYBE a PR tell but there aren’t any in this game so

Also I’m not even disagreeing with your read, I just think out of all the things to pull to support it that came off as super contrived

“Fakeable”? Probably not for BJ’s D1 trajectories.

If BJ had tiptoed softly yesterday making no ripples, then yes, resetting to ‘GOT NO READS’ on D2 may have been more easier to fake.

Plus, you didn’t have the first hand advantage of posting in real time yesterday with BJ.

Eh. I disagree, but it’s less contrived than I initially thought so whatever.

[LolWagons]

Oh thank god

[LolWagons]

Why?

I META’d you for Chibibear’s normal so I feel like I have a grasp on how you play. And you actually contribute to games which is desperately needed right now.

[LolWagons]

Dude you’re literally doing the same thing I’ve been accusing you of doing from my replace in. You just get on these one on ones with anyone who throws any amount of suspicion on you and try to avoid actually pushing or engaging people. The only person you haven’t really bucked is me and I’m wondering if it’s because you’re intimidated.

[LolWagons]

Like if you had given reads and shit or even explained like “hey nah man that’s just me that’s just how I do, I get the logic sorry here’s where I’m at” I could have been convinced to unvote you.

But. You. Just. Keep. Doing. It. Over. And. Over.

[LolWagons]

It’s because you haven’t really given any reasons for me to pick apart afaict.

Are you kidding me? I categorized every post in your ISO. You’ve done very little that’s helpful and spent four times as much effort on posturing yourself with others as you have actively engaging other people and trying to get reads.

[LolWagons]

But would you agree you’ve spent more effort defending yourself than anything? I mean seriously look at your own ISO.

[LolWagons]

Like if you had given reads and shit or even explained like “hey nah man that’s just me that’s just how I do, I get the logic sorry here’s where I’m at” I could have been convinced to unvote you.

But. You. Just. Keep. Doing. It. Over. And. Over.

Meh I was put off from talking with you by the way you were leveraging votes on me.

Yeah I was hoping the pressure would make you contribute and maybe I could move on to someone else and put pressure on them until I felt more confident that read in but you didn’t.

Seriously this game is a harder solve than most and I don’t have any strong reads like I had in my first game back on the site but you’re my strongest scum read specifically because of the overarching themes I mentioned.

[LolWagons]

Yes. I mean it’s practicalky the only thing I’m doing rn because very few serious suspicions have been pointed elsewhere today.

But come on man, you were doing it on day 1 too.

[LolWagons]

Yes. I mean it’s practicalky the only thing I’m doing rn because very few serious suspicions have been pointed elsewhere today.

But come on man, you were doing it on day 1 too.

Did I say I didn’t? Why are you getting bent out of shape over semantics

Dude. Come on. I said you’ve been defensive the whole game.

You say yeah, well today it’s because I’ve been suspected by multiple people.

I say, yeah, but you were doing it yesterday too.

And you try to flip that on me and say it’s a semantics issue? It’s a perfectly valid criticism of your explanation. Your explanation didn’t adequately cover your behavior for both days, only one.

[LolWagons]

It’s like if I’ve had shitty work performance for a month and I tell my boss my dog died last week.

It’s like, okay, that explains last week but what about the three before it?

Then I’m all “oh damn don’t get wrapped up in semantics”

[LolWagons]

Okay I missed the point of what you were trying to say then. I was talking about why that was pretty much the only thing I’d been doing today.

Then you didn’t really read the case on you, because the vast majority of that was from Day 1. Even though you said it wasn’t worth refuting. Idk what to tell you or where to take the convo from here.

[LolWagons]

Tbh I’m now starting to look at other things and I’m curious whether anyone has an idea of why Nibbyi died?

Also, input on this? Or are you not going to engage me when I’m finally doing something other than defending myself?

Makes CeeJay look bad if you look at the last few ISO posts.

[LolWagons]

Normally I try not to do much night kill analysis because PRs confound that.

But without PRs here and with mafia only getting one lynch of their own before the next one is a loss, there might be more merit in examining Night kills.

[LolWagons]

Normally I try not to do much night kill analysis because PRs confound that.

But without PRs here and with mafia only getting one lynch of their own before the next one is a loss, there might be more merit in examining Night kills.

So why not discuss it earlier?

Not to be a dick, but why didn’t you?

As a sign of good faith, my reason:

Night kill analysis left a bad taste in my mouth in my most recent completed game.

I led the lynch on mafia D1 and D2. Managed to live until day three and the last mafia killed the guy who was defending him hardest. I thought for sure he was town.

Luckily watcher caught him. Even after the report I was reluctant to believe it.

[LolWagons]

Point is if I had just looked at interactions I probably would have had him as my second or third lynch instead of my strongest town read.

[LolWagons]

Mhm yeah, on top of flaking out that does reflect poorly on him
How was Nibbui being read EoD1 because if they were widely townread that lowers the likelihood of that being why they were killed

I’m on mobile now but I think the general consensus was that Nibbui was kind of town. It’s been a few days since my initial read through but I think that’s where I landed. I was mildly but not overly surprised by the night kill.

[LolWagons]

Eh. I’m probably off to sleep soon.

Don’t think BJ or Key (as frustrating as our play style difference is) are mafia so today was the most productive day so far. What a slog though, y’all need fire in your belly.

[LolWagons]

VOTE: PenguinPower

Whatever.

Clem, hop on with me.

[LolWagons]

VOTE: penguinpower

I thought you were going to be my least favorite person in the game and howdy hello hiya you turned out to be my favorite.

[LolWagons]

Aster to be honest from my point of view, from someone who has been harping on this for days, literal days, it looks like RC caught your buddy and now you are trying to start a competing wagon. Like what the hell. I was clawing for that lynch and now you decide that it’s time to believe me, only after a wagon on PP starts up? That’s literally the only thing that’s changed.

[LolWagons]

Like I’m not fucking stupid, or at least I’d like to think so. That seems super transparent, what just happened.

[LolWagons]

It feels contrived. And shit I was voting him.

[LolWagons]

I will be very sad if aster is scum because she has felt super pure to me all game

Well if PP flips red you’re going to have to face that possibility

[LolWagons]

I love you all individually but hate you as a group

[LolWagons]

Maybe Gamma is aloof town, and 2-3 people who are suspecting you are scum and don’t want to all be caught on that wagon, since we would probably lynch off it the next day. I thing AG and BJ are both town. If aster is scum that makes Gamma town probably. My reads are so fucked this game. Is there a world where Mastina/RC/Aster is possible?

[LolWagons]

Mastina and Aster were heavily one on oneing though

[LolWagons]

Does AG call this much attention to himself as scum? This is a really bold move

[LolWagons]

RC my vote is still there, yes, I still think it’s a good lynch.

[LolWagons]

RC my vote is still there, yes, I still think it’s a good lynch.

I find it odd you were excited for my replace in, but then naked voted on to my wagon. Why is my slot scum - and don't say because of RC's case.

Because of RCs case.

Not gonna lie to you bro.

[LolWagons]

RC my vote is still there, yes, I still think it’s a good lynch.

I find it odd you were excited for my replace in, but then naked voted on to my wagon. Why is my slot scum - and don't say because of RC's case.

Because of RCs case.

Not gonna lie to you bro.

Also, his case came after you replaced in? So I don’t see why that is odd.

[LolWagons]

oh right

@lol - 1227 was the first and only time u mentioned me as scum in connection to gamma

u didn't mention scum ghost before that point and ur big post breakdown of gamma's posts came way after u voted for him

was that post breakdown ur own analysis of scum gamma independent of mastina' scum gamma read?

and after i called the people out a second time u spend to go back and forth on my alignment within mere posts of each other

so u wanna explain all this? do u agree with all of mastina's reads/connections concerning gamma and I?

I’m gonna be blunt: I don’t remember what I was thinking at that time. I haven’t been super into this game. But I can tell you currently I think you’re town and at the time my Gamma vote was apart from Mastina’s posts. I preferred Gamma over you which is why I switched and why I talked Mastina into switching. Aster’s push on Gamma after the PP wagon started felt super contrived and so I decided PP was the best move, since there’s not a lot of support for Aster lynch.

[LolWagons]

The thinking being, Mastina and I had this whole case on Gamma, two separate strong cases, and yet Aster decides its time to join the wagon after a PO lynch crystallizes out of the apathetic mess. Active lurking and defensiveness is still a scumtell to me but I’m willing to admit I’m wrong about Gamma in light of that type of opportunistic voting. On top of the opportunistic timing the vote was basically a rehash of my case on him.

[LolWagons]

PP*

[LolWagons]

This game is like a rash you hold off on going to the doctor for because you know you won’t like the news

Not that I’d know

[LolWagons]

Did someone say L-1?
VOTE: PenguinPower

Yeah boi get it

Let me see that scum fliiiiiiiip

[LolWagons]

If PP flips scum and I eat the kill you guys lynch Aster ok

[LolWagons]

I haven’t played well enough to eat the kill to be frank but if I do!!! Vote aster

[LolWagons]

at first I was like
"Nice try Gamma on the fake-hammer you were already voting Pengy"
then I was like
"Holy shit Gamma unvoted and Clem jumped on the wagon since the last VC"
and then I was like
"Gamma is probscum trying to take a one for one since they are so close"

that's a lynch boys and girls

Oh fuck I thought it was a reaction test

[LolWagons]

I was all playing along and shit

[LolWagons]

Welp what I said still stands.

[LolWagons]

Ftr I'd be willing to bet that the entire current wagon is town

Gamma would be on that wagon

[LolWagons]

PenguinPower: RadiantCowbells, Gamma Emerald, Lolwagons, Clemency, TTTT

I’m cool with that being town

[LolWagons]

Don't ask don't ask don't ask

Perfect

[LolWagons]

Its Sunday night and I'm having a few drinks wanna fight me?

Me irl

[LolWagons]

I still thing AG is town and BJ is probably town. So if all but one town is on that wagon and it’s correct that leaves 2 in

(Mastina, Keyser, Aster)

[LolWagons]

And it’s probably not Mastina and Aster together so

1) BJ/AG town read is wrong
2) Scum on the wagon
3) We should Lynch Keyser->Aster->Mastina

[LolWagons]

2) Should be more than one scum on the wagon

[LolWagons]

If AG is scum I’m fooled. He has called attention to the fact he hasn’t been lynched like four times

[LolWagons]

Seriously Penguin. I am not buying that you seriously thought you were lynched when you posted 1553. At what point are these fake reactions supposed to enter lynch-all-liars territory?

[Actually, does anyone fall for those fakehammers anymore? This the third game I'm playing on mafiascum.net and I've already literally lost the count on the amount of fakehammers I've seen.]

Then vote him

Hammer

[LolWagons]

If you don't buy it then be a good girl and hammer

You get me

[LolWagons]

If you don’t believe him, then you need to vote him. Now.

Hammer. Do it.

Hammer.

[LolWagons]

guys this is peer pressure

You’re fucking right it is and I’m the god damn boardwalk

[LolWagons]

I’d like people to remember PP has been in the game several days now and then look at his ISO. Does that look like town?

No it frakkin-dizzle-doesn’t.

[LolWagons]

Let me catchup the last 5 pages.

You can hammer when you're done

PP hasn't posted here since his shitty fake reaction

[LolWagons]

Why in the hell was I the night kill

And also

Thanks you for making me the night kill

[LolWagons]

Oh I see why. I called the first two lynches if Gamma flipped town.

So I think this setup is swingy more than unbalanced.

A day 1 scum flip would give town 3 lynches to get one association right, or more if scum want to kill.
A day 1 town flip makes the town at less than a third of the players with no interactions and no PRs

[LolWagons]

You should add in two masons with a factional kill lmfao

Then those don’t count towards the two lynches town needs but gives them associative tells.

[LolWagons]

I want to note that even though this was a harsh setup that scum did play really well.

Why I didn’t push Aster after that vote switchup I don’t know but that’s on me. I was an idiot for pushing Gamma for someone else’s vote.