Mini Normal 2046: Autumn's Farewell [Endgame]

[mbaki]

VOTE: YyottaCat

[mbaki]

I believe KMD is aligned with the town.

[mbaki]

OkaPoka, this game is off to a fine start and we are already past RVS. Save your justice crusade for another lobby.

[mbaki]

Kaythanks, but why?

Wow is there seriously more than four scums in this game?

I hope not.

I think you derped here.

What do you mean?

Obviously there wouldn't have more than four scum-aligned players in a 13-players mini, it wouldn't be normal.

The way you responded is unlikely to come from scum.

This is dumb.

My vote stands.

[mbaki]

Creature's response to your quip.

[mbaki]

This is not a theory thread.

There is already lots of content in this game you can form reads off of.

There have been multiple wagons and people shifting wagons.

I want to first go with the why do you like RVS over RQS and what fundamental beliefs led you to that. Then we can go deeper.

This does not help anybody garner reads in this game.

Responding to it does nothing because

this is not a theory thread

.

Thank you, next.

[mbaki]

I am engaging with the game?

whatever

ill tone it down

Not in a solving way though. I won't bring this up again nor do I think your posting around RQS points towards you being town or scum, for the record.

I would like to lynch YYota. I believe RB is town, though this read is more null if YYota is scum.

[mbaki]

YYota is still a better lynch than Suka.

can u give some whys and stuff.

RB is a sturdy dude.

[mbaki]

Bulky. Not fat, but well-built. Would be hard to knock over.

[mbaki]

It is not a mafia term.

[mbaki]

That whole page just felt like shit posting...

New page, new start?

But, seriously why was it shit. We are slowly getting things moving along here.

If you disagree, why didn't you comment on any of it?

Why are you answering my question with a question?

Why did you read a page you thought was progressing the game, choosing not to partake in any of it?

[mbaki]

I agree with 123.

[mbaki]

Creature I am town
That one guy with the gif profile even said I was so town, I was too town

I don't think I called you town

[mbaki]

I would like to lynch YyottaCat.

[mbaki]

Likely waiting on his wagon to blow over.

post edit: if that is in fact true, I have no qualms policing the slot either.

[mbaki]

Oka and Vork kinda kinda feel like partners trying to force interactions.

[mbaki]

Oka and Vork kinda kinda feel like partners trying to force interactions.

So you believe the scumteam is Yyotta, Oka and Vork?

No.

[mbaki]

So which one(s) do you think are scum and which aren’t?

Neither, particularly. It was a throwaway comment for now. If there are more between those slots in the future or if one ends up flipping scum, that is when it becomes relevant.

[mbaki]

@mbaki

-how do you read suka and DDL?

I have no strong feelings.

My reads right now are RB, Creature, Nero on the town side, possibly Varsoon as well, and YYotta on the scum side slightly. Nobody else is worth mentioning.

[mbaki]

Oh, and KMD is slightly on the town side.

[mbaki]

Kaythanks, but why?

Wow is there seriously more than four scums in this game?

I hope not.

I think you derped here.

What do you mean?

OBVIOUSLY I don't have access to scum chat. OBVIOUSLY. Guys, look at me OBVIOUSLY not scum.
Not buying it.

VOTE: Leodanny

This could be on the awkward townie side I think.

[mbaki]

Oh, OkaPoka slight scum side too.

That whole page just felt like shit posting...

New page, new start?

But, seriously why was it shit. We are slowly getting things moving along here.

Weird post.

Also, Varsoon is actually closer to scum side than town side on a re-read I reckon.

[mbaki]

I don't know why I had him as town. I re-read the game, and his posts are mediocre for a player of his caliber. Don't love how quickly he changed his YYotta vote and shifted it to Oka, nor his possible pocketing of Nero.

[mbaki]

Woah, woah, woah.
Slow down.
A player of my caliber?
What informs this?

Also, I don't see how you get off playing the 'Varsoon is experienced' card while also casting my postulation that 'Nero sorts himself out' as pocketing rather than me just sharing meta experience.

As for my YYotta vote, that was never a serious vote and was only meant to highlight Oka talking out of their ass.

That's fine. I'm not interested in lynching you as of now. Just pointing out you're not a town read like I recalled.

[mbaki]

I don't know why I had him as town. I re-read the game, and his posts are mediocre for a player of his caliber. Don't love how quickly he changed his YYotta vote and shifted it to Oka, nor his possible pocketing of Nero.

So you're saying he's good at town and bad at scum?

Just the first 5 words.

[mbaki]

This will probably mildly annoy you, but 252 is townie.

[mbaki]

@Mbaki: So you're retracting that I'm a high-caliber player?
I'm hurt ;p

Noooooo I didn't retract that

[mbaki]

but 252 is townie.

My scum game is just me trying to match my town game.

So..... what you're saying is... that it could also be not so townie

Lol..... no...

[mbaki]

This will probably mildly annoy you, but 252 is townie.

Great, but did you actually take in what I was saying?

I don't need the advice, but I appreciate you offering it.

If you need an answer, you're interpreting mediocre wrong. It did not live up to my short-term recall of his posts - memory isn't eidetic - but it was not terrible either, hence "meh" or "mediocre". It is not calling his posting mediocre; that is a hard overall scale that is not very relevant. Out of game influences on his posting frequency and quality are not important for this stage of the game.

[mbaki]

Nero, what is your read of Creature as of this very moment?

[mbaki]

I think he's a bit null but leaning scum.

This is scum.

I had the same reaction.

I also thought you sounded like a MathBlade alt account.

[mbaki]

He can't meta me because I don't play here.

[mbaki]

It's a good think we can judge you based off your play in this game, then.

This is a relevant post why?

[mbaki]

Kaythanks, but why?

Wow is there seriously more than four scums in this game?

I hope not.

I think you derped here.

What do you mean?

Obviously there wouldn't have more than four scum-aligned players in a 13-players mini, it wouldn't be normal.

The way you responded is unlikely to come from scum.

This is dumb.

My vote stands.

mbaki, what does this have to do with your vote on Yyottacat?

Unrelated, hence the line break.

[mbaki]

Creature seems pretty clearly in his town game to me, and with Nero's self-stated experience it seems odd he would have Creature as anything but town. This was why I asked for his Creature read.

[mbaki]

I'm from another mafia site, so I doubt you do, but good luck if so!

[mbaki]

I find it very unlikely she voted you because you were getting bussed by DDL. That sentence read far more like "I believe both of you are scum, but DDL is voting you so DDL is busing." Correlation is not causation.

[mbaki]

but at the same time, if she believed that both me and DDL are scum or that I was getting bussed.

VOTE: DrDolittle

Also a good vote.

Why not Nero?

Why is she trying to get votes off DDL and onto me? Surely she wouldn't care which scum gets lynched.

Would you like me to answer? Otherwise I view it as a question for Suka and I'm going to not respond.

[mbaki]

b/c I was getting bussed by DDL

I was contesting this.

[mbaki]

I still don't get it? If you think that me or DDL are town and thus a no bus situation is going on that has like....nothing to do with Suka's believe that I'm getting bussed which doesn't even make sense.

I don't get what you don't get. You keep equating things that have nothing to do with each other. The bus comment was more than likely a throwaway, and you are fixated on it.

[mbaki]

No it is not.

[mbaki]

mbaki, what's your current read on Nero?

Very slight toward scum I guess. No strong opinion to give.

[mbaki]

I rather lynch Suka or Mbaki. I'd compromise on DDL though.

VOTE: Nero Cain

No.

[mbaki]

VOTE: suka for no reason..?

LOL

i'm townreading this

I somewhat did too, sadly enough.

[mbaki]

I could lynch every one of the posters from the last two pages, this is going to be a long game.

[mbaki]

Vorkuta: who is scum?

I'm willing to jump on the DDL wagon (when/if he comes back) even though

it doesn't really make sense to me

..

TvT

-and If she says LITERALLY ANYTHING in her defense I'll drop it.

The third quote is the most important because it means you're pushing YYotta on policy rather than scumhunting principles. Nothing inherently wrong with that nor am I against a policy on her as I've stated, but your push that you'd "like to do" is not somebody you scumread as you handwave away the current 1v1 going on. I have not mentioned that you are currently voting Suka, the person you're dismissing as town, and not YYotta, the person you'd like to lynch supposedly.

[mbaki]

I rather lynch Suka or Mbaki

u wanna talk about this supposed scum read on me?

[mbaki]

If Suka is scum, I don't believe its from anything to do with why Nero Cain is scumreading them.

My townreads that I have any confidence in right now are KMD, Creature, and RB. I state this to make it clear Suka does not fall into the townread category. If Suka does end up being scum, at least in Nero Cain's case it will be caught for the wrong reasons though.

[mbaki]

mbaki, why don't you townread me despite having the same reaction to Nero's posting?

A good question indeed.

[mbaki]

Your sole hard scum read, YyottaCat

I have never called YYotta a scumread.

[mbaki]

Sans meta

Unfortunately, sans meta is not how we are playing mafia. If you prefer to play in meta-less games Town of Salem might be more your speed.

[mbaki]

talk more about how you go from town reading me to

me being your #1 scum read

and you want me lynched

Talk more about how the first 20 pages of a game are not allowed to have read changes. I town read you for weak reasons, now I scum read you for weak reasons. Welcome to day 1 of a mafia game. And stop with the underlined, you are adding things in that were never said

constantly

, and it is more argumentative than debate-y.

[mbaki]

Don't you have to read the game to get a vibe?

[mbaki]

Don't you have to read the game to get a vibe?

I asked you a question first.

Not a question that has any value.

[mbaki]

@mod

the Nero votes are messed up in that vote count (i.e. they're separated).

VOTE: Suka

RB, who would be a good person for me to place my vote on? If Nero Cain is your top town read I will support that. I don't have a good place to push right now though.

[mbaki]

Vorkuta you should vote!

Sure- let me just hop on the Suka wagon and make it L-1!!!

No.
Not until I have even the slightest idea of who MIGHT be scum/town.

Your vote should be on someone at all times in the early stages of the game.

VOTE: Suka

Why?

Wagon building. Nero Cain being town makes you a likelier candidate for scum, and I am confident in RB being town who is confident in Nero Cain being town which for early to mid day 1 is plenty. Where is a better place to have my vote?

[mbaki]

I considered / am considering that. Any good case?

[mbaki]

y have you two abandoned DDL is scum?

If you two is directed at me, I don't believe I ever expressed an intent to vote DDL.

Why? If anything it's making me doubt myself on suka because it looks like scum seeing a wagon not on them and jumping on.

It gave me weird town vibes because of how little of a shit it gave, looked like someone who's generally just an awful player rather than scummy. I am thinking of moving my vote back there though.

VOTE: Vorkuta
439 sounds weird.

[mbaki]

and the answer is?

You are rather pungent.

So you spent several pages pushing for a lynch that you didn't scum read? Bang up town play there.

So you kinda lied?

"but it was wea...."

WE KNOW.

bold is really defensive. When pplusually vote they usally vote their top scum read so I don't feel like I've done you some great disservice by assuming that you would do that.

I have great disdain for your style of play. There are lots of reasons to vote someone other than your top scum read, and for somebody who isn't a scum read. I did not push a YYotta lynch overly strong, just repeated to vote for him a couple times to force him to play the game after my RVS vote garnered an odd reaction. My goal was to make the game progress which is what an early game town needs to generate reads, and it proved unsuccessful so I moved on. YYotta is demonstratably not reacting to these votes, so keeping my vote parked on that slot does nothing; there is no purpose voting there now unless I decide I'm locking in on that lynch because my vote will no longer be applying pressure. I despise overconfidence, which you overflow with. Voting is quite literally the only thing I can do to influence the game, and 9 other people here may be in the same boat (9 being 10:3, typical alignment ratio). My vote and the discussion around my vote is

my

impact on the game, and it has done a bang-up job.

TSO is beneath. MS>MU>TSO>EM. Here's the thing though, meta is a useful tool but its not this say all be all of scumhunting. Creature's content is ass and you know it so you're falling back on meta. You have this strange double talk where you are saying my content is scummy while ignoring my meta but ignoring Creature's content and invoking "town meta!" if you are going to use meta then you can't pick and choose where and when to apply it.

I much prefer MU to this site, the quality of games is signficantly higher in my experience. This is not related to deadlines. Meta is the best scumhunting tool by far, and my MU meta knowledge is far more proficient but it doesn't take a lot to know Creature. I don't know your meta, so I don't use meta to sort you. Of course I "pick and choose where and when to apply it", I'm not going to apply a time-intensive tool to people I can't use the tool on... I am in awe that's an argument you even attempted to make. What is your "meta" that should be helping me sort you here? If it is something as simple as Creature's I would be happy to engage in reading it.

*That said, Creature has been lackluster since his posting spree. I am aware of this. If Creature maintains his current activity level I will pursue that slot again. It is not the kind of slot one randomly wagon's for no reason, he will resolve before the end of the phase most likely.

[mbaki]

Aren't you the one that thinks votes should be unjustified?

There's a difference between requesting "justification" and asking why you voted someone.

asking why you [did x]

While technically speaking this is asking for an "explanation" rather than a "justification", in this context they are essentially synonyms. Don't play semantics please.

she posted elsewhere on site yesterday.

Relevant.

[Bright's] quite active & independent thinking as town

Citation needed.

Perhaps OkaPoka can be a town read. I'll think on it.

but what if she just plays the same way regardless of alignment?

How are you still scumreading me? I addressed all of your concerns more than enough for you to drop the suspicion.

Sidebar: laughed.

[mbaki]

I agree with 123.

"but I never called him scummy!"

You are agreeing with a guy that IS calling him scummy. If you are agreeing then you are agreeing that he's scummy.

As is common here, a throwaway thought on page 5 is referenced later seriously.

[mbaki]

Suka is still sounding like Mathblade to me.

~

I almost just voted Bright Eyed Fish. Didn't, but almost did. Awaiting meta citation requested above.

[mbaki]

So a four-word comment from the fifth page of the thread vocalizing a "plus-one" for someone else is a substantial comment, then? Do you believe I have not significantly interacted with the game?

[mbaki]

And more-over, that is the only example you could find of me holding Doctor Do Little scummy. Is that what a scum-case is to you? Are these questions annoying?

[mbaki]

My thoughts are if you believe I am scum you can push for my lynch but I am bored of this interaction.

I have stated RB, KMD, and Creature* are my confident town reads. I have mentioned I am troubling to get firm reads in this lobby. I have an ISO button if you would like to utilize it. The gamestate is fine, content is coming pretty quickly. I did not do half the things said in the above post by you, and what that tells me is talking to you is going to be unproductive and I would be better served to ignore you for the duration that RB remains a town read and you his.

[mbaki]

Do you reckon Varsoon is town, RB?

[mbaki]

VOTE: YYotta

[mbaki]

After a stalking of YYotta I have concluded they are likely WOTC worthy. This is very slightly more reminant of her town game. That said, I believe she is just a troll alt account of somebody.

[mbaki]

I have not played on this site for year(s), I do not qualify myself as an alt.

[mbaki]

Being on awful player isn't a town tell.

It is also not a scum tell.

[mbaki]

Indeed.

[mbaki]

I do not believe many people do. I think the list of people who scum read me is limited to Nero Cain, possibly Doctor Do Little, and possibly YYotta who is likely flipping today.

[mbaki]

If anybody wants to talk we can! I am working a graveyard for another 6.5 hours and ecstatic about it.

[mbaki]

No.

[mbaki]

No.

Well are you still wanting to vote me?

If YYotta does not go through, it is a possibility.

[mbaki]

Possibly.

[mbaki]

Possibly.

Why are you being so evasive? You are the one who said you wanted to talk.

So you possibly SR me and I am possibly #2 on your list. Do you possibly not have a read on me and are just trying to start something because you know I'm town and a mislynch is good for scum?

I do scumread you to a degree. I possibly think you're obnoxious and childish, but game related I am unsure if you would be where I voted over YYotta. I might, or might not, one could say it is "possible" I'd vote you but I am unsure.

[mbaki]

VOTE: Vorkuta

i actually like this more

i have no idea what to make of yyotta at all. nothing they're doing makes sense as either alignment, so i'm not willing to lynch them because it gives us absolutely nothing. i'm not enthused about their play though

I am fine with this, but go look at YYottas past isos please. There are not many and they're all very short. I (to contradict myself as I am sure Nero Cain will enjoy pointing out) am actually thinking this is more their scum game, though the confidence in this lynch is amplified by the uselessness of the slot.

[mbaki]

Additionally, to reiterate, I do not believe I am being evasive about anything.

[mbaki]

Your iso is fishy.

[mbaki]

Interesting.

[mbaki]

The latter.

[mbaki]

VOTE: Vorkuta

[mbaki]

Perfectly thrilled with it, still my preferred lynch for the day.

[mbaki]

I am not willing to lynch rb, Kmd4390, OkaPoka.

I probably would not lynch Creature, Nero Cain, Suka.

I would be okay with lynching Varsoon, Leodanny.

Ideally, we lynch in DrDoLittle, Vorkuta, BrightEyedFish, YyottaCat.

[mbaki]

also, NC is right, so I’m gonna say:
666 combined with mbaki’s Vorkuta vote is weird, and I still have

no clue how scumhunting works

trust in you(NC) and still want to vote DDL.

What is weird about my Vorkuta vote?

[mbaki]

Right ok- what did I do that's scummy this time?

and @mbaki- is #666 a readlist with townreads on top? or a 'would not lynch' list? Because the two can be quite different.

Yes, overall a reads list.

[mbaki]

Oh wow- that's how you get people to reply to you?
We still have 4 days left- that's enough time to start an NC wagon, don't you think?

I don't think you approach of herding votes by deciding what wagons can or can't go through on D-1 is very town friendly.
It's narrow in scope and it feels like an anti-town thing to say.

I mean sure- you can go down the entire player cast and give a reason for why a wagon on the SHOULD exist, or why a wagon on them WON'T go through today, however urging 4 lurking players to explicitly PICK one of the 4 'NC-approved-wagons' still strikes me as scum. Like they see the VC and the general state of town. Why the herding?

It is enough time, sure.

If

I thought Nero Cain was scum at this point, I would happily start it, the consolidation point is a good guideline but 4 days is plenty of time for new wagons if and only if cased (a naked vote now is not good enough).

That said, the key word is underlined. In reality, 684 is a scummy post that made me feel better about my vote being on you.

[mbaki]

I am not willing to lynch rb, Kmd4390, OkaPoka.

I probably would not lynch Creature, Nero Cain, Suka.

I would be okay with lynching Varsoon, Leodanny.

Ideally, we lynch in DrDoLittle, Vorkuta, BrightEyedFish, YyottaCat.

For me, I townread the top two groups to varying degrees and scumread the bottom two to varying degrees. It is more PoE at this point for me, as I townread half of the playerlist and therefore it is a 50% shot of hitting scum if this is a 10:3 game and I'm right about all of my town reads (a big assumption for day 1 of course). When games have a lot of townie players and minimal outright scummy players, those are where the lurkers and null slots tend to flip scum. Vorkuta's last post on Nero Cain also happens to be his scummiest post in the game in my opinion.

[mbaki]

I don't actually know if this is Creature's town game, but I suppose now is not the time to open up that can of worms.

[mbaki]

For you it is, Creature.

That said, you're at the top of activity overview and that's good enough in my eyes.

[mbaki]

VOTE: Vorkuta

Please don't lynch Vorkuta.

Why?

I originally voted because PoE and to help RB wagon build, but I hated his Nero post so the vote stuck.

[mbaki]

VOTE: Vorkuta

Please don't lynch Vorkuta.

Why?

Vorkuta's fluid approach towards me doesn't come from newb scum (if you assume I'm town, which I am).

You're assuming he's a newb as Nero Cain said which is not a given.

But moreover, newb scum could have decided you would be too difficult to push or something like that. If you want to go the newb scum direction, his only push of any strength at the moment is lynching the easiest slot to lynch in the game.

Now, that slot might very well be scum, but if it's not Vorkuta is definitely a good bet. Convince me on another wagon if you want, I'm all ears, but I dont see anything townie with Vorkuta.

[mbaki]

What is wrong with the YYotta wagon then?

[mbaki]

Sorry Suka, going to have to agree to disagree. I am not against a Bright Eyed Fish lynch, but I'm not for it enough to help you push it.

[mbaki]

Ah Mafiascum, you never disappoint.

[mbaki]

Quote where I said that? Another truth?

[mbaki]

and the answer is?

You are rather pungent.

So you spent several pages pushing for a lynch that you didn't scum read? Bang up town play there.

So you kinda lied?

"but it was wea...."

WE KNOW.

bold is really defensive. When pplusually vote they usally vote their top scum read so I don't feel like I've done you some great disservice by assuming that you would do that.

I have great disdain for your style of play. There are lots of reasons to vote someone other than your top scum read, and for somebody who isn't a scum read. I did not push a YYotta lynch overly strong, just repeated to vote for him a couple times to force him to play the game after my RVS vote garnered an odd reaction. My goal was to make the game progress which is what an early game town needs to generate reads, and it proved unsuccessful so I moved on. YYotta is demonstratably not reacting to these votes, so keeping my vote parked on that slot does nothing; there is no purpose voting there now unless I decide I'm locking in on that lynch because my vote will no longer be applying pressure. I despise overconfidence, which you overflow with. Voting is quite literally the only thing I can do to influence the game, and 9 other people here may be in the same boat (9 being 10:3, typical alignment ratio). My vote and the discussion around my vote is

my

impact on the game, and it has done a bang-up job.

TSO is beneath. MS>MU>TSO>EM. Here's the thing though, meta is a useful tool but its not this say all be all of scumhunting. Creature's content is ass and you know it so you're falling back on meta. You have this strange double talk where you are saying my content is scummy while ignoring my meta but ignoring Creature's content and invoking "town meta!" if you are going to use meta then you can't pick and choose where and when to apply it.

I much prefer MU to this site, the quality of games is signficantly higher in my experience. This is not related to deadlines. Meta is the best scumhunting tool by far, and my MU meta knowledge is far more proficient but it doesn't take a lot to know Creature. I don't know your meta, so I don't use meta to sort you. Of course I "pick and choose where and when to apply it", I'm not going to apply a time-intensive tool to people I can't use the tool on... I am in awe that's an argument you even attempted to make. What is your "meta" that should be helping me sort you here? If it is something as simple as Creature's I would be happy to engage in reading it.

*That said, Creature has been lackluster since his posting spree. I am aware of this. If Creature maintains his current activity level I will pursue that slot again. It is not the kind of slot one randomly wagon's for no reason, he will resolve before the end of the phase most likely.

[mbaki]

Ah Mafiascum, you never disappoint.

I thought you were new to MS? Another lie?

"I much prefer MU to this site, the quality of games is signficantly higher in my experience. This is not related to deadlines. Meta is the best scumhunting tool by far, and my MU meta knowledge is far more proficient"

[mbaki]

[mbaki] is apparently only here to shit on MS.

Is that I'll I've done this game? My mistake.

[mbaki]

I believe the scum team is BrightEyedFish, Vorkuta, and either DDL or one of Varsoon and YYotta. If it is Varsoon, YYotta could fit in place of Vorkuta or Fish, but Varsoon is not remotely as scummy as the other people listed so for the moment. that's not a priority.

[mbaki]

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

[mbaki]

If Yyotta were scum, she could be voting Vorkuta/DrDo? I feel like she doesn't care enough about her life to be scum.

Yeah by that logic we need a new wagon because we are all voting town right now. I'd be surprised if that was the case. Also, you opened up quite a bit after being wagoned. Is it because you are about your life? Does that make you scum? (Note: These are mostly rhetorical. Just making my point)

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

Aren't we supposed to be consolidating? Deadline is only 70 hours away.

We are also supposed to be voting who we think is most likely to flip scum. I have no issue being online the hours before deadline if it doesn't gain traction. Why arent you telling BEF off for not consolidating and voting me (our wagons were the same size) as well?

[mbaki]

his top scum read.

no

[mbaki]

I do enjoy my three scumreads being the 3 person wagon on me.

Happy with either of Vorkuta and BEF, YYotta still good but it's being pushed by a lot of sketch people so it isn't my choice wagon anymore.

[mbaki]

I do enjoy my three scumreads being the 3 person wagon on me.

That's usually a sign that you're wrong about at least one of those scumreads.

I am not deluded enough to believe I'm right about all 3 day 1, you're right. I think two are probably scum though.

[mbaki]

My solves as of now are:

Firstly, Kmd as the deep wolf, with two of YYotta, Fish, Vorkuta, DrDoLittle as the scum team. Most likely the middle two, though YYotta could be the dedicated bus. Significantly lower odds of DrDoLittle.
Secondly, Varsoon as the deep wolf, with YYotta and one of Fish and Vorkuta as his partners. His Dr push is not busing.

The first one is the most likely, but realistically I don't push Kmd today ever. He is no longer a top town read though.

Noting that Leodanny is completely absent, can't remember anything major about him period. OkaPoka has been pretty absent too, but I am not interested in pushing there.

I think we need flips for the game to progress, and I will have no issues with activity; I have an exam tomorrow night, but a graveyard after so I will have unlimited mafia time pre-deadline. Consider my vote on both of Vorkuta, BEF, and most likely YYotta as well. I will hammer DrDoLittle if it is needed but I don't really feel it.

[mbaki]

This level of activity is unacceptable.

[mbaki]

That's a pretty townie post I reckon Maybe I'm being pocketed but I think I'm an easier push for scum Doctor than Fish is right now.

I'll be able to hammer Doctor so do not worry about a no lynch, but I would rather Fish.

I think Vorkuta is my number one choice at this point but that's not happening.

[mbaki]

Why would you be a liability to town?

because varsoon likes to strongarm lynches, and creature, and im not sure I would be involved enough to fend off attacks against my mislynch.

Did you even see my reply to you?

Yes - you said I skimmed your ISO and noted only one read. Which is true. I only found one read, and perhaps a comment to the like of im also ok with lynching XXX iirc.

Just as yyotta gets to L-2, mbaki unvotes even though he is "Perfectly thrilled with" the yyotta lynch. Scum buddies perhaps?

VOTE: mbaki

VOTE: BEF

I suddenly feel like its a Vort, Suka, Creature team.

What's the link that ties them together? These are the three I have a hard time reading.

Don't know about Creature, but Suka is pretty clearly tied to defending Vort. Not saying he has to be scum for Vort to be but there are definite associations. I reckon Fish and / or YYotta are more likely, but it's a possibility.

[mbaki]

I'm still here to vote YYotta.

Nobody interested in Vorkuta?

[mbaki]

I do not think Vorkuta being scum has any correlation with YYotta being scum.

[mbaki]

I don't remember his argument, but his push was before Vorkuta's worst post (the Nero one) and subsequent push on me.

[mbaki]

This will sound hypocritical as fuck but I am back to thinking this is the best lynch.

VOTE: YYottaCat

[mbaki]

My logic now is the game is not going to get less stagnant if we leave a player who is literally prod dodging and shitposting around. We can sort out Fish and Vorkuta tomorrow as I firmly believe at least one scum is there, doc goes on RB tonight and we see what tomorrow looks like.

[mbaki]

Is YYotta a sorted player? I do not understand the difference you are trying to point out here.

[mbaki]

Say what you will about Fish, Vorkuta, Oka, but at least they are playing the game.

Leodanny I don't know what to do with.

[mbaki]

Who?

[mbaki]

I am unfamiliar with them then.

[mbaki]

I do not feel like hammering this. Still not a townread, persay, but icky wagon.

I would rather any of YYotta / Vorkuta / BigFishEyes today. I will hammer this lynch in about 20 hours from this post if it is necessary though.

[mbaki]

I'll make a list too. Town on top, scum on bottom:
Leodanny
Rb
Nero Cain
Okapoka
Varsoon
Brighteyedfish
Creature
Drdoolittle
mbaki
Vorkuta
Suka
YyottaCat

Speaking of this, I very much question Leodanny's and my own placement, especially with you putting Vorkuta and YYotta below me and them being my primary pushes.

[mbaki]

More YYotta votes please.

[mbaki]

More YYotta votes please.

VOTE: YyottaCat @L-2

At least DDL is doing SOMETHING

VOTE: Yyotta

I'm fine with any

I wish it was always this easy

[mbaki]

What's the vote count right now?

[mbaki]

I don't feel too strongly its a scum flip either, but I don't feel great about Dr lynch and there is no way in

hell

scum is ever resolving YYotta for us. Even if we have a cop, who clears her, then we have a cleared directly anti-town slot. I'd much much rather a cleared (or guiltied) Varsoon or KMD.

I also think she should likely be banned from playing with her level of trolling, but this isn't my home site so not my problem.

[mbaki]

Not really, no.

[mbaki]

You probably should, because I'm making sure you or Vorkuta get lynched tomorrow if I'm still alive. Call this night kill WIFOM.

[mbaki]

Is that a special person's way of saying Vorkuta is a townread?

[mbaki]

That says nothing towards your race, sexual orientation, gender, or disability.

[mbaki]

That's not what I meant by that, apologies if that is how it was interpreted.

[mbaki]

And why is that, Varsoon?

[mbaki]

It gives us not nothing but not a ton if it is green, I concede that. A big if.

if YYotta is town, when would you propose we deal with her? she's actively refusing to play to the point of not even claiming. I would call her play gamethrowing regardless of her alignment, but that's not important.

[mbaki]

Hahahahahahaha

[mbaki]

I believe that means Vorkuta is town?

[mbaki]

Oh, I need to do some major reevaluating.

[mbaki]

This feels like a newbie game.

Who is the IC here?

wow it's me imo

wow scum trying to move people off the mbaki wagon imo

smh my head

wow so true imo

VOTE: suka

probably scum trying to pocket me by townreading me for saying wow

So if I have an opinion on my wagon its a scum reaction. Got it. That's some shit logic there.

wow i townread this post imo

if given binary choice would choose drdolittle over nero cain tbh imo wow

Any of these might be potentially crumbing.

[mbaki]

VOTE: nero cain

He may have scumread his partners, if they were his two townreads they wouldn't have killed him.

[mbaki]

I mean, theoretically, we can do normal NKA here as well. RB either didn't crumb or didn't crumb well, because scum killed him. Moreover, they killed him while they would have been looking for traitor crumbs, meaning his crumbs were so bad they couldn't see them while looking. This is why I don't think crumb hunting is effective.

However, they killed him because they thought he was threatening to their win. This means it was somebody he pushed at some point, probably combined with the fact he was the most townread player.

[mbaki]

lmao i actually think suka is town btw Nero

i think you're both town

No way the team is Nero Cain and Suka, right? I don't think so, unfortunately.

[mbaki]

I think Nero Cain might actually be town by play and I was just way off base. I don't know. Not where I think your vote should be right now though.

[mbaki]

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

[mbaki]

You could argue Vorkuta kills rb because rb is pushing him, sure.

You could also argue rb's only push wouldn't be on his partner, Vorkuta.

Perhaps more soft distancing would be best, like with his absent approval of a BrightEyedFish or DrDoLittle lynch.

Perhaps we could just read on associations because this whole night kill is a mess.

I'll need to mull this over.

[mbaki]

Yes, mafia would know there was a traitor if only by the fact they would have two members and multiball is disallowed in mini normals.

Why would they kill RB for townreading a scum Nero Cain? That doesn't make sense.

[mbaki]

He does not have a guilty.

[mbaki]

@Fish, please hard claim your guilty if you have one. If you commit to a cop claim I will self vote because one scum is dead and we can afford to mislynch me in exchange for you day 3.

Otherwise?

@Suka, explain. Your Vorkuta push is likely on town, and rb townread you.

[mbaki]

Cool. We can lynch Cork after we lynch you.

(actually, we are going to lynch Suka, but you are first)

[mbaki]

I would love to hear how those are crumbs, lmao.

[mbaki]

still think nero is the second partner based off of crumbs

and this would line up with mbaki scum a lot actually

No, Nero Cain and I as a team would not kill rb, he townread both of us. I don't know why I feel like I'm talking to 5 year olds.

[mbaki]

I am not going to bother interacting with Fish because I think I will rage sub if I continue.

Oka, would

you

like to point out how those could be crumbs if you're town?

[mbaki]

still think nero is the second partner based off of crumbs

and this would line up with mbaki scum a lot actually

No, Nero Cain and I as a team would not kill rb, he townread both of us. I don't know why I feel like I'm talking to 5 year olds.

3 votes and already flailing.

Please stop talking to me. I do not like you nor respect your play, and honestly I think Suka is more likely to flip scum than you but for now I'd rather vote you because I can't stand to play with you.

[mbaki]

he's trying to say i know you are scum but he covers it with the fact its rvs and he is using the "wow" and "imo"

He is using wow and imo site-wide as he lost a bet, you can do a little research and see that to be true (ongoing references are disallowed so I cannot provide links).

[mbaki]

that way it doesn't look weird when he doesnt push u ever again

It doesn't look weird because his push on me was RVS and RVS is not from actual reads.

[mbaki]

exactly my point?

its rvs so thats where he can crumb without it looking strange

Okay, but here's my point.

Your explanations for why it was crumbs was

he's trying to say i know you are scum but he covers it with the fact its rvs and he is using the "wow" and "imo"

and

that way it doesn't look weird when he doesnt push u ever again

Your first statement disproves the second one, as it wouldn't look weird to not push an rvs push again as it is not a real push. If you look at any RVS vote I doubt more than random amounts would continue pushing them later on.

"wow" and "imo" have been used site-wide by him, since before this game started, because he lost a bet. This is not relevant and easily verifiable. If you can't find the bet, go look at his other games that had posting at the same time and this one and he used this there too.

You're using your preconceived notions to find the conclusion that works for you, otherwise known around here as "confbias". Yes, if I am scum, rb's posts could be seen as crumbs because he outright calls me scum and then doesn't push me. However, if I am town (which I am), then they aren't crumbs and its simply a random RVS vote, and rb simply didn't push me because I didn't look like an easy push compared to the multitude of awful lynchbait slots in this playerlist (see: Vorkuta, Fish, YYotta, DDL). You're assuming he crumbed, which he may not have which is what led to his being killed, and if he did then these are not them.

To be

100% honest

I can see how those look like crumbs, and if I was scum looking for a traitor I probably would agree with you. Unfortunately, I'm not scum, which means they aren't crumbs. You're falling down the very common path of fucking up after a traitor death. Like, I legitimately see how those could be seen as crumbs, but they aren't.

Additionally. If I'm scum in your mind, I need to have a partner other than Nero Cain, because rb pretty clearly townread me and Nero Cain. A scum team would not kill a low impact player townreading both of them, regardless of any "wifom". I don't think this is disputable. Though, this isn't really relevant because I don't think Nero Cain is scum.

Now, I'm going to do this.

VOTE: Suka

I believe this is more likely to flip scum than Fish. I do not believe Vorkuta is scum any longer. I still believe Nero Cain is most likely town as of now. Fish could easily be scum, but I think he fits into the terrible town category. Honestly, I kind of suspect you, but I'm going to write that off for now as I townread you before end of day yesterday and I'll trust past mbaki.

To be quite honest I know I should be nicer to fish, but everything he posts agitates the hell out of me and I really hate playing with newbies which is why I avoid the queue and often this site. I'm going to try to just avoid him and be friendly in the inevitable interactions we have. His confidence and arrogance around me actually do ring mildly townie, though I'll look like a doofus if I'm wrong here. I am going to make an active effort to just brush him off, including how I know he's going to reply to this post with "AtE" and keep tunneling me.

As for why Suka is more likely to flip scum? It is predicated off of Vorkuta being town. I believe Suka is a Mathblade alt, but that isn't overly important from my read. Her confidence for Vorkuta being town seems unfounded. The comments about "read fluidity" are a common way I have seen scum pocket townreads, as it compliments their competence as a player (pockety) while also calling them town (pockety, and yes I'm aware that's a part of play as a whole). rb's progression on Suka is odd (#87 and #90 followed by him calling Suka a townread later on kind of being what you're crumb reading rb's stuff at me as). Also, #417 kind of seems eye-rolly at a partner, though I may be speculating too much there.


I would like to see Nero Cain's take when he comes in the thread.

Right now, I would say town reads are Vorkuta, OkaPoka (redacted why), Nero Cain, Creature (if he remains active).

[mbaki]

Oh, and DrDolittle had a pretty townie end of day.

[mbaki]

I believe normal guidelines say traitor should know their teammates, but not vice-versa. The role is pretty nonsensical if they don't.

[mbaki]

In a normal game, I doubt it. Otherwise, perhaps. Regardless, while we wait for the mod to post the full role pm, what are your thoughts aside from mechanics?

[mbaki]

He didn't claim a guilty, he postured by saying "guilty" but then followed it up with quoting "crumbs" from rb.

I don't see why DDO is scum. Anything else or anything to convince me otherwise?

[mbaki]

DDL
brighteyedfish
leodanny
vorkuta

Actually, thinking more about it, I have to go back on what I said. Somebody rb was pushing has to be scum, because he was the most threatening townie (

lol

) and just being widely townread isn't enough. His top pushes were these 4 I think, and at least 1 has to be scum. Hrm.

VOTE: Leodanny

[mbaki]

[3] mbaki : YyottaCat 530, BrightEyedFish 728, Vorkuta 442

I really don't think this wagon is pure, either. I really need to organize myself. Maybe I'm back to sussing Vorkuta with the logic that rb was absent and never actually attempted to get them lynched, perhaps with Suka chainsaw defending.

Jesus, I suspect everyone. I need people to post more. Particularly Kmd, Vorkuta, and really Leodanny needs to post anything at all.

[mbaki]

Ok. So talk about your reads excluding this while keeping your vote on me. Doing nothing like you did yesterday is not acceptable.

[mbaki]

I've accepted your vote is going to remain on me, and I still think you're town.

What. Are. Your. Reads?

Do not give a read on me because I already know you think I'm scum for reasonable reasons.

[mbaki]

You didn't do shit, and I dont know why getting reads out of you is like pulling hairs.

[mbaki]

I do have scumreads but I want to get VCA before I start fleshing them out.

At this point my scumreads are all tonal/gut really. I need VCA.

gimme some vca to work with

[mbaki]

VOTE: mbaki

Done posting here. Good luck town.

[mbaki]

I'll have to look it up to see who it was but someone asked RB point blank if his "wow" was crumbing. I wonder if that was mafia looking for thier traitor.

I remember this happening, but I just flipped through the early parts of the game for 20 minutes and I couldn't find it.

[mbaki]

@rb- are you like... breadcrumbing with your 'wow's everywhere?
Is this your scumtell?

As for the Yyotta lynch- she won't come back except to basically 'prod-dodge'.
She pulls this stuff in her other games with her acting surprised an RVS vote, and the resulting 'why meeee?'
I'd support the policy lynch on her, but it's very much NAI, and her flip either way won't give us anything (unless we jackpot a scum PR )

[mbaki]

I'm also just kinda ok with a mbaki lynch. I don't feel like their play has been great and he's just running back to MU and leaving an empty slot wich is just kinda immature.

Is it immature? Kind of, actually, yeah, I'll give you that. But prior to that Vorkuta crumb, I legitimately had no idea who was scum, I was wrong about one of my top townreads (it was sliding because rb can be read by engagement because he hates scum but still), and there are legitimately implicating things in rb's iso that people here are too new to not follow. I think the town wincon is followed by me getting lynched here, I'm not helping. However, I have an actual scumread now so:

VOTE: Vorkuta

Perhaps he's my partner, or perhaps I'm not scum. Whichever world you live in, that post is horrendous.

[mbaki]

Is this your scumtell?

This line particularly is essentially a guilty. "Is this your scumtell" is not something one says immediately after asking if he was crumbing in normal circumstances.

And the finisher:

@rb- are you like... breadcrumbing with your 'wow's everywhere?
Is this your scumtell?

wow so true imo

[mbaki]

Perhaps more soft distancing would be best, like with his absent approval of a BrightEyedFish or DrDoLittle lynch.

Why not Suka?

If you are town you wouldn't be voting yourself.

TBF, town do get frustrated. Like yeah sure, throwing down a self-vote and

aTe

ing as scum is a thing but its not like ONLY scum self-vote.

Absolutely, I just voted Suka a few of my posts ago. He essentially admitted he was scum to Vorkuta though, he literally quoted the part of the post that had him admit he was scum. He never actively pursued a Vorkuta lynch either, and the only reason the wagon took off at all is because I took it upon myself to sheep rb (lol) and start the wagon.

I think Fish is town, especially so if Vorkuta is scum. I won't be addressing him again though, I don't think anything will be gained from it.

PEdit: it is going to be 2 scum and a traitor. 4:9 is not something ms is capable of handling.

[mbaki]

I think scum are Vort and Oka and maybe KMD depending on if its 3 scum and a traitor or 2 scum and a traitor.

VOTE: Vork

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29549
I believe every single instance of traitor is either 2 scum and a traitor, or 2 scum and a traitor and a serial killer.

Which means, scum can't really afford to bus as they only have 2 full members. Suka's hard defense of Vorkuta would make sense as partners. We can pursue that after Vorkuta flips though. Oka is possible I suppose, it'll be interesting to see how he reacts to these new superstrong! crumbs he kept searching for.

[mbaki]

He found a reason to move his vote very quickly though, and at least some distancing may happen. I don't think Oka is the number one scum suspect, KMD is possible too. Do you townread Suka, then?

[mbaki]

I respect 1122.

[mbaki]

Vorkuta was last seen a few hours ago, and is not in any other games.

[mbaki]

I keep reading day start and Oka just so frantically trying to push me as a RB buddy just seems so fake to me. I'm not really town reading anyone based on play but maybe its just Vork and Oka vs. Nero and the useless scummy town

For the record, you are the only town read I'm confident in. Buddying?Who knows.

[mbaki]

I don't think Oka is scum, Nero. I think he's just awful and using wiki level tells to form reads. It fits with his RQS ramblings. I don't think that's where you should push after Vork flips red.

[mbaki]

self-voting

Are you going to actually listen to me if I explain my self vote, or is your vote locked in today? Be honest, I don't think you're scum.

[mbaki]

Okay, I'm going to put my English minor to work here and try to make this readable.

Here's the thing.

Yes, I am not enjoying this game overly. To be 100% honest, rb was one of the few players I wanted to play with here, along with Creature and Varsoon. I read him wrong and he was removed from the game, both of which were demoralizing for me.

When the day started, I realized just how few reads I actually had. Then, rb's iso actually does kind of look like crumbing to me. It is very hard for me to convince people not to lynch me when in all honesty it does look like crumbing. As I've said before, the best case I have against it being crumbing is that is isn't because I'm town. Nothing more than that, it just isn't because its not.

You are reading my self vote

completely

wrong. I voted myself because I had no confident reads (useless to town), I am not an important role (if I am a pr it is not something like a cop), and rb's posts to me looked the most like crumbing* (meaning I'd be a liability later on if we didn't hit scum) (*before Nero brought up Vorkuta essentially scum claiming). The fact I was not enjoying this game, combined with the fact I thought it actually might be optimal for town to get rid of me; my self-vote was not out of rage, hence the "Good luck town." There is no ill will in that sentiment.

I am now voting Vorkuta and campaigning for his lynch because I have actual reads I can be solid in again. If Vorkuta is scum, that solidifies Fish can be town, Nero can be town, and a bunch more associations we can find day 1. I am no longer a liability because we found who rb crumbed to. I am still not going to be in love with this game, but after 2 scum dead it probably won't continue long. As to Fish's suggestion, absolutely subbing is an option, but I haven't subbed once in the decade I've played mafia for

any

reason, much less a temper tantrum. I no longer think it is optimal for town to lynch me, so I am not going to self-vote. If I am lynched today, that would be unfortunate but it isn't the end of the world. I'll likely just apologize to Fish in post game and stand by my sentiment YYotta should be banned for gamethrowing and be done with it.


In summation, yes I'm a raging baby but that wasn't a raging self-vote.

[mbaki]

Idk mbaki- I already told you why your scum read on me has no solid ground. What more do you want?
My vote isn't changing.

You were put at l-1 before you were viewing the thread, but after your last post. I would think that would get some kind of a fight from a townie. That's okay, you're going to be one of the next two lynches and I think you know that

[mbaki]

Still prefer mbaki lynch to vorkuta, though revelations are interesting. We can lynch vorkuta tomorrow.

As to why because you guys are going to ask.

mbaki's self vote pushes it over the edge for me. The difference between mbaki selfvoting and your typical rage!town self-voter is that mbaki isn't the type of player who self-votes, based on what he said about yyotta. Either he was lying about his opinion on yyotta or he was manufacturing rage. pick whatever reason you want, mbaki is the scummier player.

? Oka are you scum ?

the revelations looks on my end like a smoking gun

your case on mbaki seems dubious at best

I did have this thought initially too.

It seems like as close to a guilty as you can get from traitor crumbs on Vorkuta. But, I slept on it, and naw, I think Oka's just tunneled and not experienced enough to reevaluate. There are lots of great players that are still lacking in that category, such as Moth and RadiantCowbells.

[mbaki]

I don't know if I actually believe that you'd want to play with Creature.

I would never want to roll scum with Creature. Otherwise, he's an enjoyable presence.

[mbaki]

So I'm trying to figure out if rb's posting towards mbaki is too blatant to be actual crumbing, but...maybe rb assumed he wouldn't be dying soon enough for it to matter?

Perhaps, though considering traitor can't endgame, I don't think expecting to live until the end is good play.

wow actually scummy imo. For real this actually does sound like trying to subtly ask rb if he's the traitor but... if that's the case, Vorkuta never shoots rb. I kinda think that if rb was shot by a vig and not town, they need to claim because if that's what happened I think it's likely Vorkuta is scum. If not, I think I'd lean mbaki.

You can apply the exact same thing to me; rb's crumbs are damn obvious to me (roleplaying here), that is not something I would miss and especially so with the attention I was already paying to him. It is a continuum because the more obvious the traitor is the less sense it makes for scum to kill them. This was the sole thing holding me back on Vorkuta, but I'm chalking it up to that happening early in the day and his inexperience led him to succumb to recency bias. Recency shows rb voting him and pushing for his lynch, combined with rb being a very widely townread player.

And this sounds like an intentional attempt to plant WIFOM after mbaki's flip. I hope I'm not just confirmation biasing here but it's like everything mbaki is posting since day start feels like scum. The point mbaki raises against Vorkuta on this page just makes so much sense though. But like I said if that's what happened there is absolutely no world where rb is Vorkutascum's NK. So yeah, I need to see a claim from a vig who shot rb in order to buy that. Vorkuta could still be scum who shot rb but that would mean he thought rb was crumbing a power role or something and not traitor. And actually the more I think about that, the more plausible it sounds.

This paragraph went from bad to good, but I would like you to consider the ridiculousness of that first sentence Especially because you've agreed with multiple of my points. And yes, they very well could have thought rb was crumbing a power role, since that is what he agreed to partially.

[mbaki]

naw. Oka can totally be scum here. I don't think his being against a Vork lynch since d1 means he can't not be scum. It actually makes a ton f sense to defend your scumbuddy in a game of two scum + traitor.

I'm also thinking that a red Vork makes both Suka and DDL town. Its simple (maybe too simple) but Vork has voted all of you (mbaki), KMD and Leo. There's a chance he hasn't voted his scum buddy.

With that logic, it would mean the last scum is in Varsoon, Creature, BrightEyedFish, OkaPoka.

Bright just doesn't seem that scummy to me. I could kinda see a scum Varsoon lurking it out and there's a part of me that thinks Varsoon lurking is his scumplay b/c I've lynched him several times as lurking scum but I feel like in the last few games he's been more aggressive as scum. Creature's content has always been poor and he's being a lurksack which is totally in line with his scumplay. I think we'll find the not Vork scum in Oka, Varsoon, Creature.

Your first paragraph is part of why I suspect Suka. I agree with you Fish, DDL, and Kmd are probably town. I have no clue as to Leodanny's alignment, but sure. I agree with the general places you're looking, this is a talk for tomorrow though.

Clarify this?

Nothing to clarify. I don't believe you made much of an impact yesterday, and I was being an ass in how I worded it because of a mix of game annoyance and out of game stress. You have a high post count, but I don't believe you did much constructive posting yesterday.

[mbaki]

This level of activity is unacceptable.

This describes my thoughts. I don't think you're wrong for disapproving my saying that, but I think the level of player contribution this game is appalling.

Suka and Nero are the only ones whos activity really meets what I'd expect. I will say looking back on day 1 I saw OkaPoka posting lots so I might need to apologize for that.

But, and this sentence is mainly at Nero, it should be very telling that despite Creature's play feeling lurky and absent (I agree to an extent), he is still the third highest poster.

[mbaki]

suka?

S-U-K-A

SUKA?

what has she done that is constructive?

Suka's posting was consistent from what I remember. She vocalized reads and pushes.

and since you felt that so little people people were doing stuff yesterday

why call me out specifically?

You were annoying me.

[mbaki]

Creature's reasoning on town Leo (51), his paranoia about rb slowly turning into a stronger townread (250, 545), his desire for more townreads (289), and his desire to interact in real time (547, 549), don't ever come from scum Creature. Why do you want to lynch him, Oka? And why don't you want to lynch Bright?

Awaiting meta citation requested above.

Take a look at the game Oka linked. Or just look at the ISO in this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77774

You not answering some of my questions and not providing more justification is non transparency.

I didn't answer your softball questions about whether I'm a newbie... If anything, that's a minor town tell; if I were scum, I could have easily played the newbie card to avoid getting wagon'd.

I said I'm happy to explain where I'm coming from. That's transparency, not non-transparency. What I'm refusing is "justification" (i.e. "rhetorically proving the validity of what I'm saying for the purpose of making myself seem towny").

Your reads and calling of scumteams/pairs that early and then following up on it is too confbiasy to come from town.

I've changed my reads throughout the game in response to new information. That is the opposite of confirmation bias. If anyone is suffering from confirmation bias, it's Nero (and part of the reason I stopped voting him).

Sure playstyle turns it into a YMMV kinda thing, but I don't think it applies here.

Why doesn't "non-transparency playstyle" apply to me? Why do you think I'd be playing differently as town when you've never played with me before?

And so on. I am not arguing Suka's content is necessarily good and I've made the fact I think they are possible scum clear, but they pushed things and took stances, the basics of mafia.

[mbaki]

it shows that he was actively looking. I don't see anything that shows you actively looking

I think all I have to say to this is: exactly, I wasn't looking. If I was scum, I would know there was a traitor to look for.

[mbaki]

idk. id feel more comfortable if mbaki had more votes. Is everyone else blind or am I?

I was at l-2 before Suka voted Bright (lol?).

Wait so suka isn't playing up to your standards of doing stuff or is? Because almost everyone has taken stances and pushed things. I don't think I'm understanding what you mean.

That's okay. It isn't important.

@kmd my thought against that is, vork thought process is wow imo rb could be traitor but rb has been pushing me hard all game day 1 nah I might be overthinking this let's kill him wow imo

Still feels risky from his point of view. Anyone who you have a thought about being traitor is someone you avoid killing just in case they are. Seems like he'd just pick someone else that makes zero sense as a traitor, especially on N1.

You've already answered this yourself though.

[mbaki]

Suka is up to my standard of play. I think they're a good shot for Vorkuta partner, but they're playing at the level of adequate. Of course, this is just in my opinion. Kmd's and Varsoon's activity has been very low, Leodanny hasn't meaningfully contributed to the game since the first quarter of day 1, Fish and DDL have had very sporadic activity though DDL has been more consistent since his being voted to l-1, and so on. This is not relevant to sorting alignments which is why it is not important, but I'll keep going through the playerlist if you insist, lol.

Yes, DDL, Creature could be scum. That's a problem for when the rest of you discern the scum in myself and Vorkuta, because their pretty clearly is at least* one there.

*At least is there for Oka's benefit.

[mbaki]

Ok I have like 50 questions now (most of them towards mbaki because what he says makes no sense and just comes off as anti-town)

-How am I at L-1? It takes 6 to lynch and I count 4 (DDL, mbaki, nc, & fish). Fish put me at L-2, not L-1.

I feel comfortable with putting vork at L-1.

VOTE: Vorkuta

I misunderstood this I guess.

-Ok really: was I the ONLY person annoyed at rb's wow's so much that I wanted to call them out on it?
But noooo it's scum!vork traitor hunting. How on earth is that a 'scum claim' or anything of the sort?

All I have to say to this is "lmao".

-Seriously- if you're going to use 'inexperience' as an argument for 'vork is scum', I'll do the same thing and say I'm so inexperienced I didn't even know traitor was a role. After all- 3 newbie games and no mafia 'traitors' in there.

If you are scum, which you are, you would know traitor was a role because it would be in your PT chat and likely role pm that you have a traitor.

-Why are you guys giving the lurksacks and fluffposters a huge pass and not pressuring them to say something?
Your entire game plan, reasoning, and logic basically hinges on ME to flip red, leaving you in a complete crisis with a third of the player cast unaccounted for when I flip green.

Distraction, doesn't push the person he's voting (me) and misdirects to the rest of the thread.

-Again: your claim to read rb's breadcrumbs is complete BS.
RB couldn't have '''crumbed''' me because I'm not scum.
How is rb's #17 ANY less valid than his alleged crumbing of me?

Again, all I have to say to this is "lmao".

The way I see it: you found yourself an easy newbie scapegoat to lynch on D2.
It'll cause scum!mbaki no worries or issues whatsoever, it won't reveal ANY useful information ('oh noo suka's defending him' can go both ways and you know it), and scum is one mislynch closer to victory.

Defeatism and playing the victim. It is evident why I'm pushing you, you reference it in this very post twice.

So please- can you explain to me (like I'm a complete newbie) how you got that I was """traitor-hunting""" and """scum-claiming""" from what I've said so far?

I have done this because I know this is essentially a newbie game, but you clearly didn't read my post because you aren't making any attempt to sort my alignment.


Vorkuta, I will say it is a good sign for your future as a decent player that you are actually putting up at least a little of a fight, many newbies just roll over and cry as scum when pressured. You blundered by killing your traitor, but it happens.

[mbaki]

And if I'm not scum, I wouldn't have anything referring to a 'traitor' in my role pm.

I mean... yeah?

LIkewise- if I WERE scum, wouldn't I have like... instructions and things to do/not do coming from slightly more experienced members?

If you are scum, you have 1 partner you're able to communicate with and at least half of this playerlist is fairly inexperienced (or in Creature's case, one of your possible partners, somebody who is incapable of coaching). But generally, most people won't hard coach their teammates anyways, there's only a few notable names on this site I'm aware of that do it. They could point out you made a bad post after the fact, but that's about it.

The fact that you're REFUSING to consider that scum might've easily pinned the ""blunder"" on a newbie townie like me is very anti-town of you, and seeing as this is the ONLY thing you've done (after self-voting) this D2, my vote still stands.

This is not the only thing I've done. I've given reads on every slot in the game and posted stuff unrelated to you. Good revisionist history, though.

I don't even get what you're trying to say. You asked rb if he was your traitor, he said yes. The only player you can pin that on is yourself for goofing and shooting your traitor.

I don't think vorkuta is scum. I buy his whole thing about not knowing what a traitor is and expecting he'd be coached as scum.

He's playing up the newbie card ridiculously hard, and I find it difficult to believe you buy it. If you and the rest of the thread lynch me today which is acceptable albeit not ideal I want a promise that you are lynching Vorkuta tomorrow on my town flip, and I am in awe this is even a discussion I need to have.

[mbaki]

What specifically makes you think he's taking it rather than just is genuinely new, doesn't know what a traitor is, and is being accused of things he doesn't know anything about? And I'm still not convinced he'd put out a feeler toward the, get the reaction he got, and just immediately NK RB. It just doesn't add up. I admit that when I first saw it, it made sense. But after some thought I just don't see it. I mean maybe he's still scum because his play isn't exactly anything I've townread, but I just don't think you have a valid point on the traitor thing.

I'm sorry, I just think you're flat out wrong here. And again, if you end up voting me today that's fine, but I want a guarantee you vote Vorkuta tomorrow when I flip town. It probably doesn't help his case that before today he was likely my strongest scumread, with some not good posting including that post towards Nero. And, as you've already agreed with, at least one scum and probably both were being pushed by rb for him being killed to make sense. Guess who was rb's hardest* push?

*Hardest still pretty pussyfooted, but hardest nonetheless.

[mbaki]

search.php?keywords=breadcrumbing&terms ... mit=Search
Vorkuta has never used the word breadcrumbing before that post anywhere on this site.

[mbaki]

Also, daily reminder that Creature is lurking.

Daily reminder you were lurking most of D1 so you can't say anything.

His meta tell is not do lurk, yours is, and how quick you responded implies you've actively been lurking as opposed to been busy and not on the site. Also, he posted more consistently than you did day 1.

What do you think of myself vs Vorkuta now?

[mbaki]

So are you going to place your vote on me, then? You sound like you've made your mind up long ago.

[mbaki]

Vorkuta has never used the word breadcrumbing before that post anywhere on this site.

Delete the 'ing' portion of that word.
I don't know what case you're trying to build with that but ok.

Your teammate might have given you the advice to look for crumbs, or you found out about the term breadcrumbing on the wiki somewhere. Especially because crumbing is the common term used, so if you read it somewhere on site that is likely the term you would use as opposed to the full version.

search.php?keywords=breadcrumb&terms=al ... mit=Search

You still used this after your usage here.

[mbaki]

Vorkuta is lynchbait

A lot of this game is lync hbait. Your scum read, DDL, was wagoned and didn't put up any of a fight. I don't argue that he could be classified as lynch bait, but that's a playstyle thing and does not equate to town. As a slight aside, my friend, your posting does look partner-y as all hell to Vorkuta. Can you explain the town read anything past lynch bait?

It saddens me all your scumreads rely on Vorkuta flipping scum

That's because he gets that Vorkuta is basically guiltied by his post to rb. That wording is not by random chance. I would be more inclined to reconsider if Vorkuta wasn't a scummy slot before today too (and KMD you agreed with this), and I think my earliest posting today calling Vorkuta likely town showed a willingness to reevaluate my reads. After Nero brought up his outright crumbs, there's nothing to reevaluate there and it just feels cut and dry.

When will Leodanny and Varsoon be replaced?

I legitimately could not remember a Leodanny post without searching his iso, but because of how activity requirements work on this site I believe they are technically meeting the minimum. It is the same reason why YYotta was technically not in violation of any rule aside from the spirit of the game.

OkaPoka is town

Well, based on your above post, you believe I'm town. I agree with you on this one, so try convincing him of that?

But realistically, I don't think anything Vorkuta says today is going to get me to move my vote because it is there for factors largely aside from play, and I don't think a lynch outside of myself and Vorkuta is going to happen nor is it a good idea. You're going to need to pick a side there. You can still discuss other scumreads if you are that sure I'm wildly off base.

[mbaki]

Can you explain the town read anything past lynch bait?

Congratulations, you managed to ignore an entire quote

What did I ignore?

[mbaki]

Can you explain the town read anything past lynch bait?

Congratulations, you managed to ignore an entire quote

What did I ignore?

Ok I have like 50 questions now (most of them towards mbaki because what he says makes no sense and just comes off as anti-town)

-How am I at L-1? It takes 6 to lynch and I count 4 (DDL, mbaki, nc, & fish). Fish put me at L-2, not L-1.

-Ok really: was I the ONLY person annoyed at rb's wow's so much that I wanted to call them out on it?
But noooo it's scum!vork traitor hunting. How on earth is that a 'scum claim' or anything of the sort?

-Seriously- if you're going to use 'inexperience' as an argument for 'vork is scum', I'll do the same thing and say I'm so inexperienced I didn't even know traitor was a role. After all- 3 newbie games and no mafia 'traitors' in there.

-Why are you guys giving the lurksacks and fluffposters a huge pass and not pressuring them to say something?
Your entire game plan, reasoning, and logic basically hinges on ME to flip red, leaving you in a complete crisis with a third of the player cast unaccounted for when I flip green.

-Again: your claim to read rb's breadcrumbs is complete BS.
RB couldn't have '''crumbed''' me because I'm not scum.
How is rb's #17 ANY less valid than his alleged crumbing of me?

The way I see it: you found yourself an easy newbie scapegoat to lynch on D2.
It'll cause scum!mbaki no worries or issues whatsoever, it won't reveal ANY useful information ('oh noo suka's defending him' can go both ways and you know it), and scum is one mislynch closer to victory.

So please- can you explain to me (like I'm a complete newbie) how you got that I was """traitor-hunting""" and """scum-claiming""" from what I've said so far?

Vorkuta is lynchbait

I didn't ignore a quote, you naked quoted a post and did no arguing for why Vorkuta is town.

[mbaki]

it's MU. Of course, they are elitist.

He won't say the words, but he's voting me as a mix of dislike and policy. Your time would be better spent debating with Kmd, if I revealed as ic Oka would still vote me.

[mbaki]

The fact that you're REFUSING to consider that scum might've easily pinned the ""blunder"" on a newbie townie like me is very anti-town of you, and seeing as this is the ONLY thing you've done (after self-voting) this D2, my vote still stands.

Also, I'd like to point out the irony in Vorkuta saying I have done nothing aside from tunnel him on D2, when he has something like 6 posts today all of which are defending himself or voting me. He is playing reactively, not proactively, and since Oka is a surface level player there is a surface level read for you. He has done exactly 0 scumhunting. Day 1, he also voted me as a reaction to my push of him.

But, Oka thinks Vorkuta is scum and I am scum too. I think it is pretty clear we are not partners, though sure Oka, a random hard bus is possible and happens occasionally. It isn't a good strategy with newbies like Vorkuta because they aren't typically able to profess the level of confidence needed as scum, but I'm aware you don't have the experience to know that.



Oka, assuming Vorkuta and I aren't partners — and I believe you're the only player who's even considering that possibility — you agree Vorkuta is almost certainly scum, and even in your world you have to know it isn't

likely

we are the last two scum; so who is scummier? I know you are going to keep voting me, learning to admit when you're wrong takes practice; this is more educational for you to look back at post game.

i dont think self voting comes from a mbaki type of player

he explained his reason for doing so

but i dont think it should ever happen from a mbaki type of player

This whole thought process you've repeated shows critical thought, which leads me to believe you're the type of person that

will

take constructive criticism when needed.

vorkuta is probs scum here, he asked if its a scumtell so I don't think he's looking for town pr crumbing and looking for town pr crumbs is kinda scummy on day 1?

You are aware why Vorkuta is very likely scum. Your original reason for voting me was for the "crumbs," but now there are far more powerful crumbs that you yourself agree are very suspicious. Now, you are voting me from a mix of subconscious hate and confirmation bias. You are the only player voting me aside from Vorkuta, including Fish and Nero who I have actively fought with this game, the former on a personal level. People naturally vote with who they like, so what does this say about the fact those people are voting with me? I am annoyed that you showed no real response to the fact I spent my time writing a wall for your benefit.

And finally, to reply to this:

the guy straight up calls out people and entire playerlist for being bad.

generally only when prompted. I would stick to my main identity if I wanted to be able to leverage my skill as a way to get votes, but I don't really want to associate my play here with my play from my home sites because this site is impossible for me to perform on in my normal lighthearted manner.