Open 744 - Lovers and Losers [endgame]


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Post Post #7 (isolation #0) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:35 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Hey, I'm Date Mike.




- Date Mike
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Post Post #9 (isolation #1) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:44 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 8, Bambi Jay wrote:VOTE: Michael Scott

You know what you did.
Yikes, getting strong Jan vibes here!

VOTE: Bambi Jay

-Date Mike
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Post Post #10 (isolation #2) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:48 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Bambi, just give good ol' Date Mike a chance. I promise you'll love me if you just give me a chance!

- Date Mike
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Post Post #12 (isolation #3) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:53 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 11, Egix96 wrote:Hey guyyyyyyyyyyyys :)
Aren't game threads supposed to be locked during pregame? I don't get what's going on here...
Wow, getting some really strong Toby vibes here! That guy is always trying to shutdown my fun!

VOTE: Egix96

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Post Post #19 (isolation #4) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:33 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 14, Egix96 wrote:
In post 12, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 11, Egix96 wrote:Hey guyyyyyyyyyyyys :)
Aren't game threads supposed to be locked during pregame? I don't get what's going on here...
Wow, getting some really strong Toby vibes here! That guy is always trying to shutdown my fun!

VOTE: Egix96

- Date Mike
I take it you're Auro then :wink:
I guess that, since the game technically hasn't started yet, I get to openwolf as much as I want until we start for real...

Mwahahahahaha... That goody-two-shoes cousin of mine will never know what I'm getting up to... Hahahaha! :twisted:
So whaddaya say, Mikey-boy? Wanna dance?
Are you asking me to a dance-off, boy? Because you stand NO CHANCE against Date Mike in a dance-off. My moves are outta this world, and you can't compete with me. Everybody loves my dancing.





As my buddy David Wallace likes to say, SUCK IT!

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Post Post #21 (isolation #5) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:56 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

So I've a strategy that gives us a town win 66% of the time.
Let's follow it when the game starts.

~Jimothy
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Post Post #23 (isolation #6) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:21 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Don't think it's in there.
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Post Post #24 (isolation #7) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:03 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 14, Egix96 wrote:I take it you're Auro then
No, Date Mike is Volxen :P I'm Jimothy.
Volxen really likes his Date Mike persona.

~Jimothy
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Post Post #27 (isolation #8) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:34 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

@Lolwagons: I'm not sure if we're allowed to discuss these right now, can we?
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Post Post #29 (isolation #9) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:41 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Neither do I. I asked the mod about it, once he approves I'll go ahead and detail my strat. 66% winning chances makes it pretty good to follow I think, considering we can afford only one ML this game
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Post Post #31 (isolation #10) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:55 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Meh, I think it's okay. Lolwagons -- are you online?
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Post Post #33 (isolation #11) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:02 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Guys. Speed massclaim.
Hard claiming Town Lover pair with McQueen.

We'll have two true VT claims and a fake one. We just pick two to lynch, 66% win.
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Post Post #35 (isolation #12) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:09 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Also lolwagons; if possible can you link to a scumgame or two of yours?
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Post Post #37 (isolation #13) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:12 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

It doesn't matter. Make your claim :P
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Post Post #40 (isolation #14) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:16 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

I'm not controlling, I'm laying out the best strategy town has.
I think Lolwagons gets it.
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Post Post #43 (isolation #15) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:17 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 41, muh316 wrote:So does this game only last two days?
Yep! Also, claim pl0x
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Post Post #45 (isolation #16) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:18 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 42, LolWagons wrote:Why the reluctance to claim? Mass claim is ideal.

Scum can’t choose who they want to be in which group after the fact, they’re forced to commit up front.
Good scum definitely won't all claim VTs, they're gonna divide into one lover pair and one VT.

So one fake VT, all we need to do is scumhunt there.
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Post Post #48 (isolation #17) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:21 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Oh, that's cool :D
That's also why I want the speedclaim as speedy as possible, before anyone has impressions of someone being "towny" or not.
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Post Post #50 (isolation #18) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:31 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

I'm strongly TRing Lol wagons now, and yeah agree with the weak TR on muh. I'd like to hear his claim though, nonetheless
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Post Post #51 (isolation #19) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:32 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Everyone who hasn't claimed yet needs to do so in there next post.

- Date Mike
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Post Post #53 (isolation #20) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 6:56 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 20, Clemency wrote:hey mr scott whatcha gonna do
whatcha gonna do make our dreams come true
I was actually considering "Scott's Tots" as a username for this Hydra. :P heheh.
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Post Post #55 (isolation #21) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:02 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

FoS: Bambi Jay


Lolwagons, what she's doing isn't out of her townrange. :( I don't wanna vote her if she's part of a Lover Pair, fortunately we can afford one slot not claiming.
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Post Post #57 (isolation #22) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:09 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

There's a strategy guaranteed to 66% win the game for town. Either you don't think the strat works, or you're scum/derping. You've not said why the strategy is incorrect, so must be the latter.

I work with my TRs, yep, and about the "crapping on" part, I think we have it reversed, buddy.

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Post Post #59 (isolation #23) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:16 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

I indeed could be, I'm not controlling the VT lynches.
It's in the best interest of town to have massclaim in *any* case.
My alignment is irrelevant, and doesn't mean you shouldn't claim.

~J
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Post Post #61 (isolation #24) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:21 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Okay, I take it that means you're a lover pair then. Cool.

~J
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Post Post #63 (isolation #25) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:36 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

@Bambi If you are claiming town lover then you should just outright say who your lover partner is. You don't need to wait for them. We didn't wait for Mcqueen because there was no point in doing so.

If we insist on everyone speedclaiming, it makes it harder for scum to plan their fake claims because the longer they take to claim, the more suspicious it makes them look. This makes it harder for the scumteam to strategize on things like which one of them should fakeclaim VT and so on.

This is why Jimothy/Auro is being so "demanding" about having everyone speedclaim. Because there is literally no reason for anyone aligned with the town to delay their claim.

Anyone else who is claiming town lover should list who their lover partner is upfront.

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Post Post #64 (isolation #26) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:38 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Claiming town lover but not saying who your partner is upfront is a bit concerning, because if you are scum it could be because you and your scumbuddies are still deciding which one of you is going to be fakeclaiming VT.
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Post Post #66 (isolation #27) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:06 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 36, Bambi Jay wrote:Not even waiting for McQueen to appear? Wow, so cold.
Lovers get their pre-game PT, and I don't think this comment comes from lover!Bambi.

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Post Post #67 (isolation #28) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:06 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 56, Bambi Jay wrote:Yeah, pocketing/working with Lolwagons
Slightly get TMI vibes from here, too

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Post Post #70 (isolation #29) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:12 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 65, Bambi Jay wrote:If you cant tell by my interractions already who it is, then obviously you weren't paying attention.
I'm assuming you mean Egix, considering he is the only player that you have really interacted with besides our slot. But why not just outright say this?

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Post Post #71 (isolation #30) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:13 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 68, Donempire wrote:How do 3 people get three pages of content before day 1 even starts?
Well it sure does seem interesting now.
Do mafia get nightkills or what?
No Nightkills, massclaim and lynch two VT claims is the best strategy for town.
If you agree, could you claim right now?

~J
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Post Post #73 (isolation #31) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:15 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Cool, we have two VT claims so far. One more! I'd be willing to bet that one's the scum we're looking for.

~J
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Post Post #74 (isolation #32) » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:17 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

And if anyone else here is going to claim town lover, you should immediately list who your partner is at the time that you claim.

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Post Post #80 (isolation #33) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:40 am

Post by Michael Scott »

VOTE: 0verki11
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Post Post #81 (isolation #34) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:06 am

Post by Michael Scott »

0verki11, who are you lovers with?
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Post Post #86 (isolation #35) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:41 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Lolwagons, you sure you wanna vote Bambi, now that he's a claimed lover? I think we should start with 0verki11.
Then the dong dude. My current solve is {Clem, Muh, 0ver} right now.
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Post Post #87 (isolation #36) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:42 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 83, LolWagons wrote:Is it an alt or something?
Yeah, Elsa Jay.
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Post Post #92 (isolation #37) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:19 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 91, Bambi Jay wrote:This is Fricken why I didnt feel like having everyone claim immediately. 3 lover pairs. Sigh.
That's expected, unless scum's stupid -- even if the claims came at a later point, we'd have 3 lover pairs and 3 VTs overall.
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Post Post #94 (isolation #38) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:28 am

Post by Michael Scott »

(3/9) + (6/9)*(3/8) = 1/3 + 1/4 = 7/12 =
58% EV
if we lynch without the massclaim.

We'd have a lot of associations because of the multiple lover pairs, we'd also have scum distancing, so it's much harder than you imagine. Speed-massclaiming isn't something scum would anticipate and participate in directly, making the ones who did it later likelier to be scum since they'd have to plan their distribution of lovers and vanilla.

Besides, associations you can draw are much more solid now, wait and you'll find out what I'm talking about.
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Post Post #96 (isolation #39) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:48 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 95, Bambi Jay wrote:But how can scum not anticipate it if you literally come in swinging as scum and make it your goal?
Sorta circular reasoning here; obviously if *I* am scum there's no question of whether scum anticipates it or not.
If I was scum I'd prolly not propose the massclaim in the first place cos that actively harms scum *shrug* but there's no point saying that cos of the WIFOM it generates.

I'm not tryharding, running the math on a strategy is a really simple thing :P
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Post Post #115 (isolation #40) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:18 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 97, Bambi Jay wrote:It's also the boring way. You should know by now I like to lynch the guy who tries to use "logic" the most. Scum can use logic too.
Then I'd say your scumhunting technique is poor.

I'm not
just
using logic -- not only do we maximize chances of a town win by having a massclaim, my initiating it and getting people's reactions also reveals likely scum. Lolwagons, who was trying to find out the best strat and immediately saw the logic in it claimed without hesitation -- unless he was scum with me and we planned it, I can't see scum!him doing that. That gives me pretty high confidence that he's town, or otherwise really competent scum.

Scum can use logic, doesn't mean using logic is scummy. :P
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Post Post #117 (isolation #41) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:22 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 108, Clemency wrote:"hey guys we have a 66% chance if we do this follow me whoo heyyy"
I never said to follow my choice of a VT lynch, just pointed out that lynching in VTs is sub-optimal.
Your trying to lynch me rather than VTs here is scummy AF.
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Post Post #118 (isolation #42) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:23 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 106, Clemency wrote:i think michael's way of doing things is boring and boring people smell
Then don't join games I'm in, if you're just gonna policy-lynch me for playing to my win-con? :P
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Post Post #119 (isolation #43) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:24 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 116, Clemency wrote:like, i understand - and agree with the strategy and i'm ok with going along with it
i'm just critical about how michael spearheaded this campaign
Yadda yadda yadda
I can see why scum!you would fearmonger and flip the lynch onto me, it's just sad that both you and Bambi can't both be scum doing this and one of you HAS to be town :facepalm:
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Post Post #121 (isolation #44) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:26 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 120, Clemency wrote:make sure you dont hurt a muscle reaching for all those narratives
By not lynching in the VT, you're gamethrowing.
I take charge as both town and scum.

Now, you're gonna hate this, but logic time.
If I'm scum, who's scum with me and McQueen?
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Post Post #130 (isolation #45) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:32 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 126, Clemency wrote:i can't tell if michael is bad scum or just town with extreme confirmation bias
Confirmation bias about?
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Post Post #134 (isolation #46) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:35 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 124, muh316 wrote:Good to see you here Dong and 2ndStory.

I agree with my Lover. VOTE: Michael
This is so hilariously scum.
Bambi's partner wouldn't do the "Good cop bad cop" play here, as it's directly disadvantageous.

If you guys derplynch me because "Strategies that maximize town wins are SCUMMY and I HATE logic" then here's an appeal to emotion,
LYNCH CLEMENCY/MUH
while I laugh at you guys in the dead thread.
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Post Post #136 (isolation #47) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:35 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 133, Clemency wrote:all of your arguments against me are centered along the idea that me being scum is a fact
"i'm scum therefore i'm scummy"
Quotes please. :P

Also, the previous question about who you think is scum if I'm scum.
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Post Post #138 (isolation #48) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:37 am

Post by Michael Scott »

For the rest of town:
You have someone who openly, brazenly stated the correct strategy for town to follow to obtain a 66% win.
Now you have people trying to quicklynch *against* said strategy for proposing the strategy.
This often comes much more from scum than town.
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Post Post #145 (isolation #49) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:42 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 139, Bambi Jay wrote:Consiricy theory: they saw they had McQueen as a partner, decided he was the weakest scum, so the put Michael (Auro/Volxen) with him and having LoLwagon as a supporting scum to lynch the real VTs.

Why else would they want to only lynch the VTs when there are 3 lover pairs? He's getting us to murder our own VTs for him. Fuck that.

End this game and this tyranny. Kill the Michael.
:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Because 66% chance of winning?
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Post Post #148 (isolation #50) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:42 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 143, Clemency wrote:unless he stops pretending that the only reason people want him dead is because they "dont wanna go for their win con"
You're just whining about me scumclaiming and confbiasing otherwise and avoiding questions there too. :P
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Post Post #149 (isolation #51) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:44 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 147, Bambi Jay wrote:Because 100% scum victory with you leading the charge.
This is derping at its finest -- even if I'm scum, it's 100% scum victory only if you follow the VTs I vote for.
:P
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Post Post #151 (isolation #52) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:46 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 146, Clemency wrote:nope he's not stopping
lynch this
No. You're prob scum, Bambi is just derp.
Muh wants to quicklynch cos partner.
0verki11's gonna vote me the moment he arrives as well.

Lolwagons looks like the only reasonable person here, and Egix too -- which Bambi has already called him a 'shit partner' for.
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Post Post #152 (isolation #53) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:53 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 140, LolWagons wrote:ISO him it’s literally all that’s in there are these contrived townslips

If you think they’re forced get back on the wagon with me
0verki11 is the likelier here I think, supported by the fact that Clem voted him.
They do look like contrived townslips, but he made one *after* you stated suspicion on him for the same? I think that comes more from non-self-aware town, rather than scum.
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Post Post #155 (isolation #54) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:58 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 153, Clemency wrote:i like how you only give credibility to the one person who's defending you and is suspect as your scumpartner, as well as the one guy who's irrelevant to the whole argument
Because they're the only non-derp person in the crowd?
Obviously he's the only possible suspect as my scumpartner, it doesn't take a leap of reasoning to get there.
But
- if idiot town derplynches me, he gets auto-cleared because of this.

Egix isn't irrelevant because I've played with him and I know he's far more competent.
I know Jay's opposed to logic and reasoning and likes trolling around, too.
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Post Post #157 (isolation #55) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:00 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 154, Bambi Jay wrote:"conf!bias" that Michael likes to use shows his
Empty words, pal.
Show me where I used said "confbias" :P
You derps are the one tunnelling me for no reason at all.


--
"OHH I DUN WANNA REASON OUT MY STATEMENTZZZ I HATE LOGIC HAHAHA"
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Post Post #158 (isolation #56) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:01 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 156, Clemency wrote:these fucking attacks on character lmao
On play, yep. It's full on idiotic. Or scummy. :P
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Post Post #161 (isolation #57) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:04 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 159, Bambi Jay wrote:Much salt. Such fun.
On the plus side, next time you try going "He's using logic therefore scum", no one's gonna listen to you.
"He may be correct but that doesn't mean right" one more thing you said. :lol:

When I'm dead, do you think Clem would be scum?
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Post Post #163 (isolation #58) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:06 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 160, Clemency wrote:holy shit he's just given up by now
Hell na, pretty sure the correct solve is {Clemency, Muh316, 0verki11} and it's also painfully obvious.
You flip me, town lynches you. So I'm relatively fine with my death.
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Post Post #165 (isolation #59) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:06 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 162, Clemency wrote:crazy strawman bro
What was the argument that I strawmanned, and what was the strawman?
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Post Post #169 (isolation #60) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:08 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 164, Bambi Jay wrote:Pedit: Well obvious itd have to be Clem and meh if you flip town. But you won't.
Woah, you used reason :o
Cool, if anyone else is voting for me, I want to hear them stating they'd vote Clem if I'm gone too.
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Post Post #170 (isolation #61) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:09 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 168, LolWagons wrote:If they look contrived it really doesn’t matter how many or when they are, they’re contrived. It’s the right vote. OK hasn’t even posted have they?
I mean it's easy to read something as forced/contrived, is what I'm saying.
Yeah 0verki11 hasn't posted -- observe how Clemency was ready to wagon onto Dongempire though, if Dong was scum with them he wouldn't do that.

What do you think of Clem/Muh? You will vote them if I flip, right?
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Post Post #172 (isolation #62) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:10 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 167, Clemency wrote:
In post 165, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 162, Clemency wrote:crazy strawman bro
What was the argument that I strawmanned, and what was the strawman?
In post 161, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 159, Bambi Jay wrote:Much salt. Such fun.
On the plus side, next time you try going "He's using logic therefore scum", no one's gonna listen to you.
"He may be correct but that doesn't mean right" one more thing you said. :lol:

When I'm dead, do you think Clem would be scum?
"Much salt" isn't an argument :P
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Post Post #175 (isolation #63) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:12 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 124, muh316 wrote:Good to see you here Dong and 2ndStory.

I agree with my Lover. VOTE: Michael
@Bambi: You will know FOR SURE Clem/Muh are scum here, so don't waste your vote on a VT after my flip.
@Lolwagons: I think the quote directly implicates Muh here. Please tell me you'll vote there if I do get lynched :P
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Post Post #176 (isolation #64) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:13 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 174, Clemency wrote:wow it's impressive how you could fixate on the exact least important part of that entire post
Which part was that, "Such fun"?
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Post Post #183 (isolation #65) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:22 am

Post by Michael Scott »

@Bambi: Glad you realized that.

@Lolwagons: I'm actually beginning to think I'm the correct theory lynch here. Now FMPOV, obviously one of {Bambi, Clem} has to be scum, and Bambi reads town to me. Now, scum's still taken the wrong path -- while their "quicklynch Auro!" strategy works in the short term, the correct play for them was to bandwagon onto Dong and get a ML there, and *then* do what they're doing right now to mislynch me tomorrow. If I'm not the day's lynch, thanks to Bambi I'll be the D2 lynch, so it's imperative that I "take one for the team".
They've capitalized on Bambi's derping (no offense), and are trying to drown me out in noise, but I'll re-iterate - it's fairly obvious Clemency is scum now. We'll have 3+4 in D2 and Bambi/Egix are going to be on Clemency already, you should, and Dongempire should join in too.
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Post Post #185 (isolation #66) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:29 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Hellz na.

VOTE: Michael Scott

Now,
lynch Clemency after my flip.
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Post Post #189 (isolation #67) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:32 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 187, Bambi Jay wrote:Ya dipshit unvote this so the VTs can kill you. Or my partner.
You derpy-derp-derp, how does it even matter?
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Post Post #190 (isolation #68) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:32 am

Post by Michael Scott »

I'm actually interested in seeing Bambi vs Clemency from the dead thread :lol:
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Post Post #192 (isolation #69) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:34 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 188, Clemency wrote:stop scumclaiming we get it already
Not a scumclaim, it's the theory-optimal move on my part because a different ML now makes me an obv-target D2 thanks to the playerlist.
Think of it as a sacrifice for a win. ;)
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Post Post #193 (isolation #70) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:35 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 191, Bambi Jay wrote:Hypothetically, I know your town and I wanted my partner to vote you first before the vts so Clemency's VT partner hammers you. Now that shit wont happen, le sigh.
It doesn't matter, Jay, because in D2 you shouldn't vote a VT anyway. Why is that important?
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Post Post #196 (isolation #71) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:37 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Clemency becomes confscum to you once I flip, your vote has to be there. As does Egix's, *logically*.
And I've given enough reason for Lolwagons to as well, I hope Dong follows it as well.
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Post Post #199 (isolation #72) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:38 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 195, Donempire wrote:Lets get on with an overkill /clem lynch?
Why do you think it's likelier 0verki11 than Lolwagons, and Clem than Me/Bambi?
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Post Post #201 (isolation #73) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:40 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Wait.

UNVOTE:
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Post Post #202 (isolation #74) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:41 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 200, Donempire wrote:I understand your enthusiasm but i couldnt give 2 shits about this game, so stop raging and get yourself together
I'm not raging, Dong, I've argued it's the theory-optimal move at the moment.
Do you disagree with my reasoning there?
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Post Post #205 (isolation #75) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:46 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Of course you will, wait though, I need some time to lock into one of you/Clemency being scum.
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Post Post #210 (isolation #76) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:51 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 207, LolWagons wrote:Michael you think it’s a coincidence your wagon started after I started pushing dong?

I don’t.
Yeah, I think it is; the way I see it, my preferred lynch was 0verki11, and Bambi's already really anti-logic and what not. Scum!Clemency capitalized on this instantly, hoping to ML me. Notice how he voted Dong as well, though
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Post Post #211 (isolation #77) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:59 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 207, LolWagons wrote:Michael you think it’s a coincidence your wagon started after I started pushing dong?

I don’t.
Now, to both Bambi and Elsa, the optimal votes for them are to crossvote, so there's no chance of a VT kill.
This instantly means you don't care about sorting Dong/0verki11, they both become irrelevant once I'm dead.
The lack of posts from 0verki11 make it hard to association-lock Bambi|Clem. On a whole, VTs are therefore now irrelevant.

Agree? Time's better spent on purely analysing Egix/Bambi and Clem/0verki11.
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Post Post #212 (isolation #78) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:00 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 203, Egix96 wrote:I've seen enough.

VOTE: Michael Scott

If you're not scum, of course I'll vote Clem next.
This is concerning and made me suddenly step back on Clem being lockscum~

Egix, what's your case on me?
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Post Post #213 (isolation #79) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:02 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 206, Donempire wrote:Hammerer gets instalynched if he doesnt wait for michaels last words at least
Both other lover pairs fully voted for me and 0verki11 isn't here.
If there's a hammer, it has to be me, or one of you and Lolwagons.
Lolwagons townreads me, so I don't think he'll hammer.
I don't think you'd quickhammer either, let's you, me and Lolwagons sort out who's more probable from Bambi|Clem first.
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Post Post #215 (isolation #80) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:08 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 214, LolWagons wrote:Nope. Optimal play is still to lynch the VT. If we sort wrong I want that extra Townie in lylo.
Optimal play is to lynch the VT, however we have one town lover pair already voting for me -- so optimal play for us changes based on this.
If we get a mislynch today, I'd be quicklynched tomorrow by that derp town lover pair.

Lynching VTs is optimal but also subject to all town agreeing to it, which isn't the case here.
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Post Post #219 (isolation #81) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:12 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 216, LolWagons wrote:I don’t compromise on lynches. Egix knows that well.

We lynch out of VT claims.
Bud, you're tied to me and McQueen here. :P
Say we lynch Dong today, and he flips green.
Come tomorrow, Clemency is going to allege that you and I and McQueen are scum, and bandwagon onto you/me.
Bambi|Egix also join in because reasons, and I become the mislynch, thus letting scum win.
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Post Post #222 (isolation #82) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:15 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 217, LolWagons wrote:Then it’s my job to convince them to play optimally through convincing rhetoric and save compromise for only near deadline, not throw in the towel now.
There's no convincing, Bambi's play is full on derp and she isn't going to change that. As long as two townlover pairs are convinced that you're scum with me, there's no way we're not ML'd in D2, Lolwagons.

Next game I'll PL Bambi Jay if she goes "Logic therefore scum" to perfectly good town strats in an open game.
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Post Post #226 (isolation #83) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:19 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 223, Bambi Jay wrote:Well look at where pure logic and a lazy lover got you.
You do realize you can do the anti-logic shit you're doing only this time, right? :P
It's only going to get me closer to my win-con next time, and you lynched.
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Post Post #228 (isolation #84) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:21 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Don't lynch me, till I perfectly sort out Bambi|Clem and achieve consensus with LolWagons and Dongempire, please.
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Post Post #231 (isolation #85) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:23 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 229, LolWagons wrote:Like three people have already assumed you’d flip town and were setting up lynches tomorrow that’s a huge red fucking flag and it’s fucking stupid there are any votes on you.
Part of the stupidity is obviously scum-motivated. :P So I'm not wholly blaming Clem.
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Post Post #233 (isolation #86) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:24 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 230, Bambi Jay wrote:Because 5/9 people have stated Michael is the proper lynch, 2 lover sets and Michael himself.
The only reason I stated I'm the theory-optimal lynch is because YOU are playing really stupid and derpy, and unless THAT changes there's no better move.
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Post Post #235 (isolation #87) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:26 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 232, LolWagons wrote:I explained it pregame.

If we get it wrong we have a 3:5 ratio tomorrow.

If we do lovers we have a 3:4 ratio if we get it wrong.

I want that extra Townie in lylo just in case.
0verki11 always lynches me here.
Dude, if you and Dong achieve consensus on tomorrow's ML (If I flip) right now, it won't matter having an extra townie or not. The extra townie is always tethered to their lover anyway.
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Post Post #236 (isolation #88) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:28 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 234, Donempire wrote:Just lynch clem ok? We already won cmon

VOTE: clementineguy
I'm kinda down for this, although I'd still like some time and 0verki11 to post before sorting Clemency vs Bambi.
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Post Post #240 (isolation #89) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:34 am

Post by Michael Scott »

The scum team is either Bambi|Egix|Dongepmire, or Clemency|0verki11|Muh.
I'm highly leaning Clem, I want to rule out the former team too -- except Egix's vote pings me.
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Post Post #242 (isolation #90) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:37 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 239, LolWagons wrote:Ugh.

I realize we lose either way with 2 MLS

I’m saying the reason this game has a higher scum winrate than it should is because they have an outsized impact on the town from the get go.

Why exacerbate their influence over the rhetoric anymore than it already has been? I want 5:3 on day two and not 4:3.

I really, really jus want day two not to exist but whatever
It won't influence it, if you and Dong achieve consensus on the vote tomorrow.
Bambi and Clem crossvote, thus two VTs are all it takes to decide.
Sorting now and planning the vote is the correct play.
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Post Post #250 (isolation #91) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:49 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 248, Bambi Jay wrote:Clem and meh aren't even posting anymore ATM and there's still chaos. No way scum just shuts up here, right?
We're more intent on solving the game.
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Post Post #254 (isolation #92) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:51 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 252, Clemency wrote:you were giving me shit for trying to lynch scum rather than follow your set in stone lynch order
Quote my lynch order.
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Post Post #256 (isolation #93) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:54 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 239, LolWagons wrote:Ugh.

I realize we lose either way with 2 MLS

I’m saying the reason this game has a higher scum winrate than it should is because they have an outsized impact on the town from the get go.

Why exacerbate their influence over the rhetoric anymore than it already has been? I want 5:3 on day two and not 4:3.

I really, really jus want day two not to exist but whatever
I'm saying rhetoric in D2 doesn't matter. There's only one more mislynch here anyway. If we achieve consensus on a plan to follow right now in D1, it avoids the problem of D2 rhetoric. Agree?
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Post Post #257 (isolation #94) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:55 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 255, Clemency wrote:
In post 254, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 252, Clemency wrote:you were giving me shit for trying to lynch scum rather than follow your set in stone lynch order
Quote my lynch order.
vt's
That isn't a lynch order, you're supposed to be more compentent than this.
:facepalm:
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Post Post #260 (isolation #95) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:59 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 258, LolWagons wrote:... how often do things on D2 go the way you plan them on D1?
If you and Dong achieve consensus on this? 100%
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Post Post #261 (isolation #96) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:01 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 260, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 258, LolWagons wrote:... how often do things on D2 go the way you plan them on D1?
If you and Dong achieve consensus on this? 100%
Only you and Dong matter here.
Bambi and Egix vote Clem.
Clem and Muh vote Bambi.

So a majority of the VTs have to decide.
The only way you wouldn't reach consensus right now is if one of you are scum, which I don't think is the case.

If both of you are town and decide the vote, stick to it D2.
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Post Post #263 (isolation #97) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:02 am

Post by Michael Scott »

If one of you *doesn't* commit to it and flops around D2, that's a scumclaim. BUT - 0verki11 becomes town in that scenario, and votes to plan. So problem solved.
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Post Post #264 (isolation #98) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:03 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 262, Bambi Jay wrote:I still feel like town would be saying "wait for my partner", Michael. Ignoring waiting for McQueen to give an input is... Weird.
Wait for my partner to do what, though? I'm pretty sure in my strategy and D2 play, and you clearly won't listen to him because I claimed lovers with him.
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Post Post #269 (isolation #99) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:07 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 267, LolWagons wrote:Oh. My. God.

What makes you think I vote with him tomorrow? OK hasn’t posted but I am NOT townreading the dong slot right now.
You don't vote with him, you vote who (you and I) agree on in D2.
Doesn't matter how you read them as long as you commit to a vote right now after sorting, with me, since you're not voting in the VTs tomorrow if I flip.
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Post Post #270 (isolation #100) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:12 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 269, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 267, LolWagons wrote:Oh. My. God.

What makes you think I vote with him tomorrow? OK hasn’t posted but I am NOT townreading the dong slot right now.
You don't vote with him, you vote who (you and I) agree on in D2.
Doesn't matter how you read them as long as you commit to a vote right now after sorting, with me, since you're not voting in the VTs tomorrow if I flip.
Think about it this way. I achieve consensus with you, and I achieve consensus with Dong. If I can. I say X is the better D2 lynch, and you both agree.
Both of you vote X tomorrow, and if one of you doesn't, 0verki11 listens to dead me and votes there.

Sounds like a plan?
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Post Post #272 (isolation #101) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:24 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 271, Bambi Jay wrote:But what if overkill is the other townie and Lol/dong are the scum? Like I said before, if you do flip town, Lol seems like an optimal scum partner with how hard they tried to buddy you.

What's your thoughts in scum!Lolwagon, Michael? Or scum!Dongempire.
My plan still works - the scum in Lolwagons, Dongempire changes votes from the plan, but since 0verki11 is town, he sticks to the plan and votes there.

No, you're not voting Lolwagons if I flip. The simple reason being Clem is obvscum to you at that point, and any VT is just a gamble.

So sorting the VTs is irrelevant right now, see?
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Post Post #273 (isolation #102) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:27 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Bambi, I'll only be interested in sorting VTs if we're going to lynch in them -- which requires you to change your mind on voting me if you're town. And also not vote me D2...

Although I'll prolly go ahead and just say that Clem/Muh are nearly obvscum at this point.
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Post Post #280 (isolation #103) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:39 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Town!0verki11 *ALWAYS* listens to dead me, or is gamethrowing. Regardless of what he says.
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Post Post #281 (isolation #104) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:42 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 278, LolWagons wrote:MS I’m leaning the other way.

I think it’s Dong/Egix/Bambi

Why do you think it’s Clemency?
BoP, basically. It's in Bambi's townrange to have done what's she has. Town!Clem doesn't push me when I have a breaking strategy here. Also, that slot has just been generating noise, using fancy terms to scumscuse me and drown out any discussion.

Also, look at Muh's ISO. Does he vote like that?

I need to go to bed soon, we'll take our time and sort this out though
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Post Post #282 (isolation #105) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:48 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 279, Clemency wrote:because i'm a threat to him
What do I care once I flip and am dead? :P
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Post Post #285 (isolation #106) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:59 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 284, LolWagons wrote:Is muh usually a sheep or do they drive convo more?
Remember they're lovers with Clem.
And they do participate more instead of blindly vote, experience with him in Newbie 1896 I think. You could do a meta check to confirm in the meantime.
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Post Post #286 (isolation #107) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:01 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 283, Clemency wrote:because you're working your way on sowing the seeds of doubt right now so you don't get lynched day 1 and i dont have the energy left to keep telling people
Sowing the seeds of doubt to who, frickin Bambi?
Lolwagons and Dong both think I'm town.
You're scum and always tunnel here (there's a better strategy technically but I'll tell you what it was in postgame)
Bambi would want to lynch me even if she townreads me *shrug* I've given up there. I'm interested in the sort once I'm dead.
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Post Post #296 (isolation #108) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:02 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 289, muh316 wrote:This whole game just feels like a shit show and Michael's sacrificial hero phase was pretty cringy to me.
My lynch is clearly the optimal move because of Bambi's stupid play. You're scum, you should understand, no?

The only reason I removed my vote was that my confidence in your being scum faded ever so lightly with Egix's vote.
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Post Post #297 (isolation #109) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:03 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 285, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 284, LolWagons wrote:Is muh usually a sheep or do they drive convo more?
Remember they're lovers with Clem.
And they do participate more instead of blindly vote, experience with him in Newbie 1896 I think. You could do a meta check to confirm in the meantime.
@Lolwagons: What do you think?

I'm waiting for McQueen to help the solve as well. 0verki11 should be prodded or replaced.
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Post Post #300 (isolation #110) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:30 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 299, LolWagons wrote:Not for sure if I’m confident enough on either pair to end this yet. I’ll look over how they both interacted with Dong tomorrow. That might inform my decision more.
If you mean tomorrow by game day, no -- we should sort them out before my lynch happens.
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Post Post #303 (isolation #111) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:44 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Hmm. Out of the 6 town, we only need 5 for a majority -- so if Egix does townread me, we'd be able to follow the strat. Egix's vote on me is definitely concerning.

I'm actually more sure now on Clem being scum than 0verki11/Dong though. :P
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Post Post #304 (isolation #112) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:47 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Yeah. I think we should take our time and grill Egix and 0ver too. I'm pretty set on it being Clem, but I'm happy to take my time and see if my read changes.

It'll be useful to have McQueen pitch in too.
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Post Post #305 (isolation #113) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:53 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 302, LolWagons wrote:What do you think about what I just proposed?
Also this relies on the rest of the town slots TRing you as well, remember.
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Post Post #310 (isolation #114) » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:07 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Wow this is interesting, all the townies wanting to vote in townies.
Thanks for making the game harder to sort. :P
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Post Post #318 (isolation #115) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:13 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Given my lynch effectively means a lynch on Clemency next, {Clemency|0verki11|Muh316} is pretty consistent with their behaviour ATM.

Let me explain.
Firstly, we should establish the cross-connections:
My mutual strongish TR with Lolwagons, along with our agreement to work together and my early willingness to lynch {0verki11, Dong} in that order establish that my only likely scumpartner here is Lolwagons from an external perspective.
With Dong's readiness to vote Clemency, Dong can only be associated with Jay|Egix. This leaves 0verki11 with Clem|Muh.
I'll just letter these trios to make it easier.

A: Auro|McQueen|Lolwagons
B: Bambi|Egix(Ruby)|Dongempire
C: Clemency|Muh|0verki11.


A is a possibility; my proposing a strategy and trying to take control along with Lolwagons quickly agreeing to it does look like it was planned. However, this means that both B&C lovers have been derping pretty much.

Now, let's assume B (Bambi|Egix|Dong) is the scumteam. Bambi fearmongers and votes me, Egix hesitates; but Egix does join eventually when I have a self-vote. It's possible that Egix missed my unvote, in which case this would be very scum-indicative. However, posts like I can't see from scum when the sentiment is largely irrationally against me. Also, his opinion on 0verki11 is pretty much the same I was thinking, so I *think* Dong redeems this scumteam.

If we take C to be the scumteam, their agenda is *much* easier to explain. Bambi's "lynch the logician" derp is pretty much expected from town, and fits; Clemency's capitalization of that to lynch me directly benefits him in the short term. There begins the derptunneling of me and the desperate attempts to get me lynched. An important note here is that Clemency's town play is
empty noise
, usually -- if you do a quick meta-check on any of his town games, you'll notice the stark distinction between his play here and his normal town play. Also, town!Clem would be experienced enough to vote in VTs. If scum have daytalk, they would have realized soon that I'm a bad D1 lynch -- it was always a better play to let a mislynch happen and then use that to powerlynch me in D2 to seal the win; here comes in 0verki11 and propounds the "lynch in the VTs obv!" idea because if I was town here and ML'd, Clem would follow suit. Given that my lynch is suicide for Clem, it's better to avoid an Auro lynch ATM, and Clem can't backtrack right now - so it makes sense for 0verki11 to do that and prevent a lynch on me. Muh also quick-sheeps his lover onto me, cause, agenda -- Muh is capable of independent thought, so this is a scumtell for him.

Bottomline being: Independent of which VT claim here is scum, my current solve being {Clem, 0verki11} and the scum!VT NOT hammering me is more indicative of Clem being scum; in any other case, scum would've taken the easier path and just lynched me after my "last thoughts", much less ask me to unvote.

{Clem, 0verki11, muh}
is the solve. Dong is a less probable partner to Clem than 0verki11.
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Post Post #320 (isolation #116) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:22 am

Post by Michael Scott »

VOTE: Clemency

I'm really confident in this. Dong's ready to vote here with me; Lolwagons, feel free to talk more about this and I'll see if I can get you to where I am. I'm locking you as town now, and am not re-evaluating your slot. If you agree that Clem is very likely scum here, vote him -- Ruby Red may join and lynch there.
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Post Post #323 (isolation #117) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:30 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 321, Clemency wrote:i'm gonna be so pissed at all of you if you actually fall for this shit
They needn't. The way the current gamestate is, it's probable we run into deadline and I get plurality-lynched; then they listen to dead!Auro's solve and powerlynch you. It's lose-lose, man. :P
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Post Post #350 (isolation #118) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 7:35 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 332, Ruby Red wrote:sorry dude you're just wrong

pretty sure you're town anyways but that's just how it is
The claimed town lover pairs are {Michael Scott, Mcqueen}, {Bambi, Ruby}, {Clemency, Muh}. One of these pairs is scum. So from your point of view, how can you possibly be townreading both our slot and Clemency's slot?


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Post Post #382 (isolation #119) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:21 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Auro and I may not completely agree on this at this point, but I still think lynching within the VT pool is absolutely the best way to approach this game as town. Again, it comes down to the numbers. If town mislynches a town lover pair on day one, then the town:scum ratio on day two is 4:3, which means if scum convinces just one townie to vote with them on day two, town loses the game. On the other hand, if town mislynches a VT on day one, then the town:scum ratio on day two is 5:3, which means if scum convinces one townie to vote with them on day two, then it's a 4 vs 4 battle to control the lynch, and as long as the four townies who have correctly gamesolved vote first, town can still win the game even with one townie having bad reads on day two (due to the plurality lynching rules this game follows). With a 4:3 ratio on day two, one townie having bad reads will cost town the game. It's that simple.

And to whichever pair out of {Bambi, Ruby} or {Clemency, Muh} is town: please understand this is
exactly
why the other pair is pushing for our lynch instead of a VT lynch. Because they understand the significant benefit to scum of having a 4:3 town:scum ratio on day two rather than a 5:3 town:scum ratio.

Auro and I are both strongly townreading LolWagons, which means from our point of view the VT scum is either Overkill or Dong. At the moment I would choose Overkill to lynch, but I won't change our slots vote until Auro and I discuss this more fully.

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Post Post #384 (isolation #120) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:25 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 371, LolWagons wrote:MS especially with the last page I’m still way more comfortable lynching between VTs.

Neither of these pairs are making me feel good and I’d rather get this right the first try.

I think OKs willingness to TR me makes him likely to be town (he isn’t setting up mislynches by trying to throw shade on me) and so Dong is still the best lynch today.
I (the Volxen head of Michael Scott) 100% agree with you on lynching a VT today.


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Post Post #397 (isolation #121) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:36 am

Post by Michael Scott »

So @Bambi and @Clemency, do either of you have a truly
legitimate
argument for why town shouldn't strive to have that 5:3 town:scum ratio on day two rather than a 4:3 town:scum ratio via lynching a claimed VT today rather than a claimed town lover pair?

Both of you have been shading our slot all game long for extremely bad reasons, and yet neither of you have made an
intelligent
argument as to why lynching a claimed town lover pair over a claimed VT is the optimal strategy that gives the town the greatest chance of winning the game on day two in the event that the day one lynch is a mislynch.

There is simply no logical reason to fight the strategy of lynching within the claimed VT pool as town.

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Post Post #415 (isolation #122) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:51 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 388, Bambi Jay wrote:The lovers votes come in pairs bro. If we lynch a vt it's still basically the same thing as 3:4.

What happened to you being the "necessary sacrifice"? Fricken weird that that disappeared.

Clearly you don't want to lynch the pairs so I get to be scummy af now without repercussions: if we don't go through this plan and kill YOU, then I will only vote you tommorow. If Clem also agrees, well look where you are.
What are you talking about? The two lovers in a pair don't have to vote the same way, and their votes aren't tied to each other. So if the day two town:scum ratio is 5:3 and the five townies are {town lover A, town lover B}, {town lover C, town lover D}, {VT E}, and A votes with scum but B,C, D, and E all correctly vote for scum FIRST, then town still wins in spite of the fact that A voted for a fellow townie. This scenario is possible with a 5:3 ratio but not with a 4:3 ratio.

So yes, the 5:3 ratio does make a difference, and it clearly favors the town. You want to take away that advantage by sending us into day two with a 4:3 ratio, which doesn't give the town that buffer of still being able to win if one townie has bad reads and votes with scum.

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Post Post #429 (isolation #123) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:03 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 421, Bambi Jay wrote:
In post 415, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 388, Bambi Jay wrote:The lovers votes come in pairs bro. If we lynch a vt it's still basically the same thing as 3:4.

What happened to you being the "necessary sacrifice"? Fricken weird that that disappeared.

Clearly you don't want to lynch the pairs so I get to be scummy af now without repercussions: if we don't go through this plan and kill YOU, then I will only vote you tommorow. If Clem also agrees, well look where you are.
What are you talking about? The two lovers in a pair don't have to vote the same way, and their votes aren't tied to each other. So if the day two town:scum ratio is 5:3 and the five townies are {town lover A, town lover B}, {town lover C, town lover D}, {VT E}, and A votes with scum but B,C, D, and E all correctly vote for scum FIRST, then town still wins in spite of the fact that A voted for a fellow townie. This scenario is possible with a 5:3 ratio but not with a 4:3 ratio.

So yes, the 5:3 ratio does make a difference, and it clearly favors the town. You want to take away that advantage by sending us into day two with a 4:3 ratio, which doesn't give the town that buffer of still being able to win if one townie has bad reads and votes with scum.

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Well that buffer is useless anyway since me and Clem are voting you tommorow, and clearly 1 of us is town in your eyes.

Do the necessary sacrifice for town like you said you would, because you don't get to be scummy and get away with it.
It was Auro that said that, not me. My biggest concern with our slot being mislynched on day one is that BOTH VT's have to correctly solve between the ensuing {Bambi, Ruby} vs {Clemency, Muh} battle on day two following our mislynch. If one VT has bad reads that will cost us the game.

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Post Post #435 (isolation #124) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:15 am

Post by Michael Scott »

VOTE: Dongempire
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Post Post #437 (isolation #125) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:23 am

Post by Michael Scott »

@Mcqueen, @Ruby, @Overkill, @Muh: Are any of you willing to join LolWagons and I in voting for Dong?
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Post Post #466 (isolation #126) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:31 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Why'd you guys hammer Dong without me :(
It's always better to decide *both* lynches in advance, otherwise we're playing directly to scum wincon because of one of Bambi/Clem's derptunnels.

I'm pretty confident Dong isn't scum, not only because 0verki11 has been scummier, but my solving scumread Clem was quick to vote for him earlier too, a huge red flag.

0verki11 plays an independent game as scum.

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Post Post #467 (isolation #127) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:35 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 461, Clemency wrote:if it flips town, lolwagons + ms is scum in my eyes
if it flips scum, i was probably wrong about ms
This is literally what I predicted to happen if we mislynched a townie. Which is why, FMPOV optimal strategy was no more a VT solve. If it's any solace, Red reads me correctly -- so that counters Bambi's derp.

0ver becomes Lolwagon's obvious vote in D2. McQueen and I both will probably vote there as well, because I'm pretty much locktown on Lolwagons. If Red votes with us, 4 votes, and we run into the deadline with plurality.

Thus, I don't need to care for derp!Bambi anymore. Red, I'm convinced it's 0ver in this scenario, let's solve the game together when you're online.
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Post Post #468 (isolation #128) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:49 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 324, muh316 wrote:So you're saying a scum player has never voted for their scum partners? That vote isn't AI. Your whole A/B/C analysis is just a clever plot to get yourself disassociated with one of the scumVTs here like Dong or Overkill.

I'd also like to point out how Dong was the one that pushed MS to unvote himself so there's that strong possibility of MS/McQueen/Dong. If there's no Mafia daychat that could have just been Dong's way of saying "Unvote yourself, you're going to make us all lose."
In this game, voting for a scum partner is a really, really bad play because of the setup, and you'll *have* to backtrack if they get close to lynch range, so yes, voting for a partner won't happen. But again, this game is full of bad plays so who knows. It's indicative at worst, though.

Whatever I do is going to be a "clever plot" if you're tunneled on my being scum. Dispute the arguments I'm making.

So now that we're lynching in VTs, from your post here your theory is that I was disassociating, therefore you'll vote 0ver today, right?
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Post Post #469 (isolation #129) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:51 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Hot take: Muh now backtracks and will agree with his lover, and 100% commit to an association between me and Lolwagons, and won't vote for 0verki11.


Red, opinions?
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Post Post #472 (isolation #130) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:14 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 336, Clemency wrote:
In post 333, Clemency wrote:wait is this game nightless
just to clarify this isn't a townslip attempt i just actually didn't notice
Yeah, let's take this as a serious question and not a fakeslip.
This betrays that Clem never *bothered* to gamesolve prior to that post, and was crazy tunneled on me without knowing something as important as this.

For Clem to be town, here, he would have to be *terribly* incompetent. While he shitposts in every game he's in, he's not dumb.

Therefore, by association, 0ver is scum.
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Post Post #473 (isolation #131) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:19 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 388, Bambi Jay wrote:What happened to you being the "necessary sacrifice"? Fricken weird that that disappeared.
It didn't, I still think the Dong hammer was bad. The necessary sacrifice was because of your derp and Egix's lack of willingness to gamesolve. Red solves that problem. ;)
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Post Post #475 (isolation #132) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:36 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 474, Clemency wrote:someone gets it
Yes. If you're town, your play was hyper incompetent and dumb.
If you're scum, your play wasn't.
You're not dumb.

Ergo, you're scum.
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Post Post #477 (isolation #133) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:41 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 377, LolWagons wrote:OK is VERY UNLIKELY scum because he does not have this fear. This is the ultimate tell in this setup because it is all-or-nothing.
I had to solve for one scum out of three suspects.
0verki11 said "I'm fine being the lynch for PoE"
I assumed it would never come from newbie scum, but guess what, 0verki11 was scum in that game. Newbie 1896.

He's capable of making that tell. It's well within his scumrange, Lolwagons.
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Post Post #478 (isolation #134) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:42 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 371, LolWagons wrote:I think OKs willingness to TR me makes him likely to be town (he isn’t setting up mislynches by trying to throw shade on me)
He doesn't need to. After a ML you become "let obvious scum" from his PoV so he doesn't need to posture. His scummates would do the job for him.
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Post Post #479 (isolation #135) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:54 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 392, LolWagons wrote:
In post 390, Donempire wrote:I dont.
I lose if your ego is hurt though :(
But hey, you're good. Source: you. So it must be me
Source: All the other town games I’ve played, soon to be including this one
You underestimate me, pal ;)
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Post Post #480 (isolation #136) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:02 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

If Lolwagons was scum, he doesn't focus on lynching VTs here after I state it's optimal play to lynch me and then Clem, *unless* he's scum with Clem.

The correct strategy in that case *is* to redirect from a lynch on me to a town lynch and hope that he doesn't get lynched D2. Lolwagons is capable of this, although it isn't scum indicative.

However, Clem directly postured towards Lolwagons being my partner and hence the lynch right after hammer; this negates the chance that Lol himself can be. If Lolwagons is, indeed, scum with Clem and Muh, I'll gladly lose there because the scumteam's play has been pretty brilliant. :D
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Post Post #481 (isolation #137) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:03 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 480, Michael Scott wrote:town lynch and hope that he doesn't get lynched D2.
Vanilla town* lynch, sorry.
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Post Post #483 (isolation #138) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:12 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 327, Ruby Red wrote:UNVOTE:

instantly asked to replace in once i saw the shitwagon on obvtown MS

so what's going on
^Town indicative for RR.
Scum RR, knowing that one of the heads is Auro, uses a meta argument to scumread me, and reaps absolutely zero benefit in TRing me when my lynch implies a Clem lynch.

RR is probs town. Or scum taking a convoluted route when half the town is derping, which is unlikely.
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Post Post #485 (isolation #139) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:15 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 482, Clemency wrote:dude i wish i was scum this game
my scumgame is not nearly this good
It wasn't this game, sorry :P
Your agenda was hyper-transparent throughout, and your failure to give a logical response to any of the arguments any reasonable person is putting across, is poor scumplay. Your posturing towards Lolwagons post-lynch removed any paranoia I had about the slot.
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Post Post #487 (isolation #140) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:17 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Although if you're scum with Lolwagons here, yeah, I will admit your scumgame was pretty great. So there's that.

Pedit: Nah.
Anyone using logic = Not dumb
Anyone responding to all gamesolving/logical posts with "lmao" or "this is scum" = Dumb or scum
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Post Post #488 (isolation #141) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:18 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Go ahead and give town a few logical counterarguments to mine.
Lolwagons disagreed with me on Dong. Am I calling that dumb? Nah
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Post Post #490 (isolation #142) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:22 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Sure - why am I not scum with 0verki11 in this scenario?
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Post Post #491 (isolation #143) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:26 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

I mean the answer isn't too hard to think about. Just wanna see you gamesolve, bud
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Post Post #493 (isolation #144) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:39 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Funnily, Clem's openwolfing makes me wonder if he is indeed Lol's partner and doing this just so I lock Lol. :(

I just want to lynch Clem now, I know lynching a VT after a VT lynch is optimal but Clem's suuuuuuuuuuper scummy and that outweighs any mechanical reasons to me, and I don't want the off chance that Lol is scum with him. Idk. What do you guys think?

@Volxen, McQueen, Red
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Post Post #494 (isolation #145) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:41 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

0verkitten, what do you think of Clemency's play? Tell me who's scummier amongst the lovers.
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Post Post #496 (isolation #146) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:51 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 495, LolWagons wrote:But you didn’t push Overkill and capitulated to Dong and now you’re trying to lynch outside of OK?
I was pushing 0verki11 all along. I was sleeping when you guys hammered Dong without me.

~J
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Post Post #498 (isolation #147) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:53 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 495, LolWagons wrote:Fuck no, we are not lynching outside OK and I tomorrow. I’ll type out a damn Grapes of Wrath length post explaining why if I have to.
Can you make a case for why you can't be partners with Clem?
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Post Post #501 (isolation #148) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:56 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 318, Michael Scott wrote:Bottomline being: Independent of which VT claim here is scum, my current solve being {Clem, 0verki11} and the scum!VT NOT hammering me is more indicative of Clem being scum; in any other case, scum would've taken the easier path and just lynched me after my "last thoughts", much less ask me to unvote.

{Clem, 0verki11, muh} is the solve. Dong is a less probable partner to Clem than 0verki11.
QFT.

Pedit: What you're saying is true from your perspective. It's sub-optimal for you. From my PoV optimal play, when you're not conftown, can be different, no?
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Post Post #502 (isolation #149) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:57 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Eh, I'm fine voting OK. I just need to be conf'd on you being town.
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Post Post #503 (isolation #150) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:59 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 498, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 495, LolWagons wrote:Fuck no, we are not lynching outside OK and I tomorrow. I’ll type out a damn Grapes of Wrath length post explaining why if I have to.
Can you make a case for why you can't be partners with Clem?
Also QFT -- I'm asking you to prove yourself town. I want to be certain, because I don't want to hand scum!Clem a win.

Hmm although you were the only reasonable person so I'd be fine losing to you, eh
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Post Post #504 (isolation #151) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:01 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Also FYPOV whether I'm town or not is irrelevant, since the vote is *effectively* locked into you and 0verki11. I personally would like to lynch Clem, because the strength of my read FAR exceeds mechanical reasons, and FMPOV it's not sub-optimal because I have Red confirmed, especially after the Dong flip.

Let's talk about you and 0ver, then.
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Post Post #505 (isolation #152) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:03 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Also, to Volxen and Mcqueeen: Don't vote till we also have 0verki11 talk. We have ALL the ruddy time to take, no quicklynches. One of them is scum for sure, and we should hunt.
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Post Post #507 (isolation #153) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:08 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

I didn't vote you. I expressed my desire to have you lynched inspite of it not being optimal for town, because I'm confirmed to myself and you have been extreme deepwolfing, and my scum radar is going crazy. I never said I'm against voting in the VTs -- I just need a lot more time to reaffirm my reads there, and want to hear my other head and McQueen/Red.
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Post Post #515 (isolation #154) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:13 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

It's not an excuse. If I could have it my way, I'd still have you lynched.
FMPOV, it's a 50-50 between Lol and 0ver, and 50-50 between you and Bambi. :P

It's not in town's best interest mechanically though since my alignment isn't confirmed, so meh, I'll solve in the VTs.

Pedit: My knowledge of my alignment changes the optimal lynch to me. To town, on a whole who's not confirmed on my alignment, yes -- you're clearly a sub-optimal lynch, so I'm not pushing for you there.
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Post Post #516 (isolation #155) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:14 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

@LulzWagons, where are you? You still here?
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Post Post #518 (isolation #156) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:17 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

I'm nowhere backtracking, man, I person do want you lynched. :P
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Post Post #520 (isolation #157) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:19 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

I personally* do want you lynched.
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Post Post #522 (isolation #158) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:25 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

@Lol: Place your vote on 0ver immediately. In case of a split 4v4 plurality, earlier votes count I think? I'm keeping my vote as a placeholder there till you do.
VOTE: Overki11
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Post Post #523 (isolation #159) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:27 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 521, Bambi Jay wrote:We wanted you dead but look where were at.
Sad for you, that Red's a good player? :P
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Post Post #525 (isolation #160) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:28 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Bambi, solve between Lol and 0ver.
I know your first reason for Lol will be the association with me.
Isolate that, and give us other reasons it's Lolwagons.
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Post Post #528 (isolation #161) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:29 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 524, Clemency wrote:the moment lolwagons puts his vote on overkill we've confirmed the scumteam
Why am I not scum with 0verki11 here, Clemency? Bussing just so you guys go vote Lolwagons against me?
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Post Post #529 (isolation #162) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:36 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Listen up town, because this is critical if we want to win this game.


Based on Dong's town flip, Auro and I are convinced that the scumteam is Clemency, Muh, and Overkill. Unfortunately, Bambi refuses to cooperate and will most likely be voting with scum.

This means the game is now going to go into a 4 vs 4, where {Clemency, Muh, Overkill, and Bambi} will all be voting for either our slot or LolWagon's slot. To win this 4 vs 4, ALL four of {Michael Scott, LolWagons, Mcqueen, and Ruby} need to vote for Overkill BEFORE all four of them vote for us or LolWagons.
If the day ends with two players at four votes, the first person to get to four votes is lynched
. So if we want to win this game, we all four need to get our votes in before the scumteam + Bambi place their votes.

At this point the game is literally a race against the scumteam + Bambi.


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Post Post #530 (isolation #163) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:39 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Can we have a replacement for McQueen if he doesn't respond soon, btw?
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Post Post #532 (isolation #164) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:55 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

@Ruby and @Mcqueen -- please get on ASAP and vote for Overkill.


@Ruby, even if you aren't 100% convinced of us being town here, the optimal play for you at least in the immediate short term is to vote for Overkill. You can always change your vote later before the deadline, but if {Clemency, Muh, Overkill, Bambi} get either us or LolWagons up to four votes first, then the game becomes
IMPOSSIBLE
for town to win without Bambi voting for Overkill, and there is about a 99.99% chance that that WON'T happen based on Bambi's gameplay.

The only way we can win this game without needing Bambi's vote is for us to get Overkill up to four votes first, and we need you to vote for Overkill in order for that to happen Ruby.

And again, you have literally got nothing to lose here by voting for Overkill at least temporarily, because you could always change your vote to us or LolWagons before the deadline.

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Post Post #533 (isolation #165) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 3:57 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

@mod Has Mcqueen been prodded?
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Post Post #550 (isolation #166) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:41 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 541, LolWagons wrote:I’m so sorry Michael lmfao
Well like you said yourself, one of the town lover pairs was scum, and the other pair just flat out refused to work with us. And with you being the VT scum to boot, this was an extreme uphill battle for town to win. Good job though, you definitely earned your scum win here. :)

Auro and I honestly thought though that town!Clemency would be more likely to listen to us, which is why we thought {Clemency, Muh} was more likely to be scum than {Bambi, Egix/Ruby}. Bambi's treatment towards our slot is in align with Bambi's town-meta, but Clemency's treatment towards our slot is definitely not in line with his town-meta, in my opinion. I was scum in Open 740 (Hope Plus one), and I played against both town!Bambi and town!Clemency in that game. Bambi's play here was similar to her town play in Open 740; I felt like the Clemency in this game was a completely different person compared to the town!Clemency from Open 740. That contributed a lot towards my scumread of Clemency over Bambi. Auro didn't play Open 740, but I believe he is at least somewhat familiar with both Bambi's and Clemency's meta, which is why he also thought Clemency was more likely to be scum compared to Bambi.

But all of that aside, I firmly believed in the strategy of lynching within the VT pool, but unfortunately I chose the wrong VT to put my trust in. :wink:
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Post Post #551 (isolation #167) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:41 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

^ The above post was written by Volxen
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Post Post #553 (isolation #168) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:42 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

I consent to our {Michael Scott, Mcqueen} PT being released as well.
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Post Post #557 (isolation #169) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:48 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Honestly, if Lolwagons were town in this game, I think town would have had a really good chance of winning against any scumteam combination of {Bambi, Ruby, Overkill}, {Bambi, Ruby, Dong}, {Clemency, Muh, Overkill}, or {Clemency, Muh, Dong}.

But the combination of Clemency completely ignoring us and refusing to listen us AND our strongest townread (LolWagons) being scum was too much.
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Post Post #558 (isolation #170) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:48 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

^ The above post was written by Volxen
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Post Post #569 (isolation #171) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:36 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Clem is town?!
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Post Post #570 (isolation #172) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:38 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 568, yessiree wrote:I thought town lacked a protown voice, which would have really helped.
But... Me :(
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Post Post #573 (isolation #173) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:46 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Clem was a horrible town player this game IMO, any indication of gamesolving instead of just shouting over and over would've made me re-assess. Scum *fully* deserved this win.

Although, scum did take a convoluted route here. Lolwagons, you could've bought in to my "I'm the best lynch" theory and lynched me long ago, Clem would've been rekt in a 1v1 anyway. The game was lost when one lover team was derp and one was playing bad, and I incorrectly read which was which.
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Post Post #575 (isolation #174) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:51 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 552, LolWagons wrote:viewtopic.php?f=90&t=78158&start=125

Its mostly me lamenting having to deceive the MS slot because I’d be super happy to play with them as town
:')
Look forward to playing in a different setup where derping won't cost me the game :P
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Post Post #576 (isolation #175) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:53 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 574, Bambi Jay wrote:Hey, I was literally fighting Lolwagon tooth and nail and Egi Appearantly tipped you off of something. Even taking the convoluted route is "optimal because of the circumstances".
Yeah, *any* route was fine agree I decided that Clem had the BoP and was scum, though. My reads in endgame were informed majorly by that.
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Post Post #578 (isolation #176) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:01 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

How would I get Clemency to listen to me though? He was extremely tunneled throughout and I can't think of anything I could say to make him listen.

Impossible situation
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Post Post #579 (isolation #177) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:04 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

And Muh, I thought you were a much better player than this, why'd you just sheep Clem? And your reasoning later was also lacking
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Post Post #581 (isolation #178) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:06 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

As soon as Muh voted for Overkill, I realized the scumteam couldn't possibly be {Clemency, Muh, Overkill}, because Muh's vote put Overkill at 3 votes, and I had publicly insisted that both Mcqueen and Ruby should vote for Overkill. So it would have been an incredibly stupid gambit for scum to vote their partner here, as they would either have to immediately unvote Overkill upon a fourth person voting for Overkill, or run the risk of Overkill just getting straight up hammered.

But I thought this simply meant the scumteam was {Bambi, Ruby, Overkill} rather than {Clemency, Muh, Overkill}, which is why I didn't immediately unvote. Muh's vote for Overkill really surprised me, but I still thought LolWagons was town.


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Post Post #582 (isolation #179) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:14 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 580, Bambi Jay wrote:By convincing him I was scum instead of you. Obviously he knew 1 of us was lying, and he thought it was you.
Clemency flat out refused to listen to us or work with us. He literally just screamed "MS IS SCUM!!!" the entire game, all the while advocating for anti-town strategies like lynching in the claimed town lover pool rather than the claimed VT pool.

While Wagons was scum here, he was 100% correct in that the pro-town strategy is to lynch from the claimed VT pool rather than the claimed town lover pool. I'm assuming Wagons realized someone would eventually realize this and bring this up, so he figured he might as well get towncredit by coming right out of the gates at the beginning of day one by strongly pushing for lynching from the VT pool and refusing to back down on this strategy (which he was consistent on throughout the entire game).


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Post Post #585 (isolation #180) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:20 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Also, BTW. If I re-evaluated my reads and voted Lolwagons, Clem and Muh would've voted 0ver since "MS IS SCUM LULZ", so there was no way we we're winning after Dong was hammered.
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Post Post #586 (isolation #181) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:22 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 584, yessiree wrote:
In post 578, Michael Scott wrote:How would I get Clemency to listen to me though? He was extremely tunneled throughout and I can't think of anything I could say to make him listen.

Impossible situation
Townhunting, getting correctly townread, and getting your townreads to work with you really come with experience
What would you have said to Clemency in this particular game that you think would get him to listen to you?
Shitposting?
Cause then, nah
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Post Post #588 (isolation #182) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 6:28 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

Yep, I think the Dong vote was rushed -- idk, I dunno if Muh would've had a change of mind, but meh
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Post Post #600 (isolation #183) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:31 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

I think Clem's major initial fallacy which led him to the shit-tunnel was misconstruing my proposal of a townsided strategy as "getting the town to follow me"; I couldn't care less who we were lynching within the VTs as long as we did lynch 2 of the VTs, guaranteeing a 66% win at random.
His unwillingness to account for this and having absolutely zero logic make his play excruciatingly annoying and bad.

Bambi playing anti-wincon aligns perfectly with her town meta.
Clem playing anti-wincon, I thought didn't -- that was my major mistake this game, but I'll not repeat this again.

Clem was the Toby of this game~
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Post Post #602 (isolation #184) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:42 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

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Post Post #605 (isolation #185) » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:46 pm

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