Open 74 - C/9ths (Game Over!) before 601

[Mokina]

Ouch. That was a very Fritzler-esque opening.

[Mokina]

There aren't any vigilantes in this setup, but TSN makes me nervous.

Psuedo-Random Vote: TheSweatpantsNinja

[Mokina]

Unvote, Vote: Eldritch Lord

For sheer comedic value.

(It is almost universally accepted that random voting draws out discussion.)

[Mokina]

So does any form of talking, assuming both sides of the discussion are willing to converse.

Good point. But there have to be sides of the argument first, and random voting creates them. See? There's already a little bit of OMGUS action going on here. Happy with my vote.

=)

Don't worry, I never hold random votes for very long.

[Mokina]

...and for pretending to shoot you.

[Mokina]

I can't fathom why he would do that, apart from "sheer comedic value" ... TSN isn't a dayvig because that's not one of the roles available in C/9ths. As such, I don't find it scummy at all. And hey, it provoked discussion, didn't it?

vote TSN for being the only player I've seen before.

Hey! Lowell! It's me, Mokina from N374!

Bandwagoning with a parenthetical excuse is still bandwagoning.

There's nothing wrong with a good ol' bandwagon now and then. Apart from the discussion aspect, bandwagons are a useful scumhunting tool. And don't think you're above it; you just bandwagoned with donkeyz12212 against me.

[Mokina]

Still, I find random voting rather scummy, why would we eliminate one of our members by voting for them if we didn't know anything about them--or hardly anything. There's a greater chance the person will come up Town. So, until we know more, since we have no deadline I'm going to try to avoid setting up an easy hammer.

Well put. You're completely right; random lynching is pointless and idiotic on the part of the town. But random voting almost never entails a lynch. At risk of cliche, it simply serves to spur discussion. Questions arise from random voting:

"Why did you vote for me? That's a stupid reason; you're just trying to lynch a newbie. Look, a bandwagon! Do you think so-and-so is trying to follow the town? Do you think so-and-so is scum?"

The people accused of "acting scummy during random voting" then defend themselves. Think of it this way; it's impossible to make an informed decision at this stage, but there's also nothing to talk about (and thus it's hard to become informed). Enter random voting.

[Mokina]

Just questioning Mokina and her thoughts, thats all at this present time since she is the one with the most lynch votes against her (3)

I feel mildly betrayed, thanks.

However, it is kind of odd that Mokina would defend random voting--but still concede that random lynching is bad.

I hold onto this position quite firmly. Random voting allows us to see people's defense/accusation tactics without anything significant at stake. It's scummy to keep a random vote for a long time, but it's protown to encourage discussion (I know, I've said it a billion times before).

[Mokina]

3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348...

...nope, not working.

In all seriousness, putting pressure on players (even if there's no concrete reason to do so) is the only way to provoke discussion about another person's tactics. For instance, if it's random, why did they pick that player? It looks scummy to pick a newb, etc.

[Mokina]

I need more information on EL, but for now I don't think I need to keep that vote. I am getting a strong new-town vibe; he clearly knows the rules and speaks eloquently, but gets hung up on some more advanced issues (i.e. no-lynch and random voting).

Unvote: Eldritch Lord

I'm still watching you, but like I said, holding a vote without reasoning is a bad move... and one I would be loath to commit.

[Mokina]

FoS: Sideney, mike-zim

A simple introduction would have been nice at the beginning, but it's just plain scummy to fly under the radar at this point. Please speak up and let us know what you think of the initial situation. Lurkers scare me.

At the moment, I hold my belief that Eldritch Lord is analytical new-town. This view may change, but I don't think I can join your wagon, Snix. I agree with everything you say about random voting and nolynch (the former is protown, the latter is anti-) but the fact that Eldritch is unaware of these conventions does not make him scum.

[Mokina]

Also, Mokina-my question stands.

ZombieSlayer54 and Snix both have the same general viewpoint, and it differs from mine. While we all agree that your perception of no-lynch and random voting is incorrect and antitown, I am under the impression that ZombieSlayer54 and Snix find it plain scummy. I don't, since you're obviously trying to analyze the situation calmly and you resemble several intelligent, new-town people I have played alongside in the past.

I would urge both of the abovementioned people to consider the possibility that he is simply new to the game. This is his first game on Mafiascum, and it's quite conceivable that he doesn't know about the nolynch/randomvote conventions.

[Mokina]

It's easy enough to confirm whether this is his first game or not. Look at his posting history.

I did. This is his first game. I am encouraging Snix and ZS to do so as well. ;D

[Mokina]

As a rule I keep talkative newbies alive on D1. I will NOT be voting for eldritch.

Remember our good friend Abalidoth from our old newbie game? Eldritch is that same archetype, I tell you!

[Mokina]

Vote No lynch

Oh for heavenssake, introduce yourself first! Say hello or something!

[Mokina]

well i am waiting to see how people play. so i no lynch now and try and work things out!!!

In the same position, I would simply reserve my vote for the future. No-lynch is an interesting decision in itself, and deserves the same degree of scrutiny a normal vote might. Remember that the scum get a free nightkill, and if we have no information on who they might pick, we're no better off the next day.

The odds of lynching a townie D1 on limited information are much higher than later on (current voters take note), but in my opinion we ought to see how this day plays out before we decide not to lynch. Maybe someone will emerge as the clear suspect, bringing us out of the realm of "limited information" and into a decent-chance lynch.

Until then, no-lynch is a bad plan. I don't blame you for it, though, because it's a typical cautious newbie suggestion (regardless of alignment).

[Mokina]

I disagree with Snix on several counts. He pretty much jumped on EL as scum when it's obvious he's simply new to the game. In fact, he's looking fairly protown (or at least analytical).

I believe in analysis and patience. Snix has just joined the Lowell wagon with no explanation, and that's a practice I simply can't agree with. So far, he has contributed very little analysis and far too much vague voting.

Vote: Snix

[Mokina]

Snix argues that Eldritch Lord initially pushed for a no-lynch, then pulled some epic OMGUS.

You have dubbed our reactions the "clueless noob excuse" but there

is

some logic behind it. New players are more likely to be cautious, and no-lynch appears on the surface to be a cautious town move (and incidentally, looks like a bad move for scum). Note mike-zim's initial reaction; he's doing the same thing, if a little less eloquently. They are both newbies, and I doubt they are both scum. No-lynch is an incredibly tempting option for D1 (uninformed) new-town, and combined with a tendency for analysis, that's my current impression of Eldritch.

It follows that Snix is either forgetting a crucial fact about EL or taking advantage of his ignorance, actions which look antitown and plain scummy, respectively. It smelled like quicklynch, Snix. If I have missed something, let me know and I will reread.

[Mokina]

mokina, can I ask why you feel like it is so necessary to defend EL?

n00b or not, this isnt a newbie game where IC's are needed...so I am just wondering why you are defending him so much?

Newbie game or not, I don't believe EL should be lynched because he doesn't know about random voting.

His initial opposition to it is all anyone has on him so far, and that's hardly a reason to lynch someone. From pure gut feeling, he seems like talkative new-town to me.

[Mokina]

Scratch what I said. Both Eldritch and Snix are annoying the crap out of me.

Translation: I'm thinking about an OMGUS.

Please go back to being analytical. I liked that better.

[Mokina]

well in that case

UNVOTE

VOTE: Eldritch Lord on grounds he doth protest too much.

sorry but what ninja mad sense in a way. (about the no lynch thing)

You would type the following in if you wanted to vote for him...

Code: Select all

[b]Vote: Eldritch Lord[/b]

Otherwise it doesn't count. Mods are fairly particular about formatting.

[Mokina]

What I believe Eldritch Lord is trying to say is he specifically repudiated Snix's points against him, and that he doesn't believe that you have made any additional points in your case against him than snix has.

See post #55, for example.

I believe what you're saying is that you have made additional points in the case against Eldritch Lord and he hasn't addressed your concerns. Try quoting posts instead of yelling at the rest of us.

:goodposting:

ZombieSlayer, the emotional posting makes it difficult for

the rest of the town

to see where you're coming from. Forget Eldritch; it's probably in your best interest to be less emotional about the issue. I hate channers as much as the next person, but if you can come up with a few nice bullet points as to why EL deserves a vote, that would really help the town see where you are coming from.

[Mokina]

Unvote

Okay. The random/psuedo stage is over; we probably have enough material here. I need to sit down, pour myself a cup of coffee, and read through the entire thing again.

As a reminder, the following players are still alive:

Mokina
TheSweatpantsNinja
Iron Man
ZombieSlayer54
DarlaBlueEyes
Eldritch Lord
Snix
dcorbe
sideney
donkeyz12212
mike-zim
Lowell

As mentioned earlier, lurkers scare me to no end. Just from first impressions, I've got my eye on Lowell, Darla, and mike-zim on that count. I'll list my suspicions in a bit and I suggest others do the same. Perhaps someone will stand out.

[Mokina]

I've got my eye on Lowell, Darla, and mike-zim on that count.

Scratch Darla from that list and replace her with Sidney... apparently she was leave-of-absence for a large portion of the time.

Ah, the things you learn from a nice re-read.

[Mokina]

Seriously, wouldn't it have been easier for you to say "everyone is alive?"

Not sure if it's the same for everyone else, but I probably would have forgotten about Sidney if it weren't for the list. There's something to be said for putting everybody on the table.

[Mokina]

FoS: sideney

for lurking. You mentioned in an earlier (page 4) post that you would evaluate EL and TSN and choose one to vote for, but I haven't seen a contribution since.

TSN looks very protown. He changes his vote a lot, but he's not a bandwagoner. He's simply trying to put pressure on each individual in turn. I personally shy away from that strategy, but it keeps the scum on their toes and that's good for townies.

I'm going to have to agree with DarlaBlueEyes here and say that ZS looks too obvious to be scum. Obviously this treads close to the realm of WIFOM, but he simply needs to lay off the

ad hominem

and be clearer with his logic. I don't think he's scummy, he's just approaching EL from the wrong angle.

I'm slightly suspicious of Snix right now, but not enough to warrant a vote. Same goes for EL. Their initial argument was heated and went on for longer than it should have. Snix still looks scummy for speed-voting EL. On the other hand, Eldritch didn't handle it very well and he certainly hasn't been scumhunting. Despite their respective high post counts, I'm not sure how much they have actually contributed to the town.

I'm done giving EL a break because he's new. I will explain new concepts to him if he asks, but from this point on I'm treating him with the same scrutiny as anyone else.

Personally, Lowell scares me the most. He's active, for the most part, but his posts are typically one-liners which do nothing to further the town's aims. I'm concerned about joining EL and Snix's wagon, since I find both of them mildly scummy, but they have a point.

[Mokina]

I'm sold.

Vote: Lowell

At the very least a wagon will get him talking again.

[Mokina]

Voting for him will force him out of these one-liners and lurking. These non-contributions just make it easier for mafia to deceive others, the town needs every eye it can get on the lookout for mafia.

The fact that we have so little to judge is the reason we want to call him out.

QFT. I don't find Lowell so much antitown as lacking in protown motivation. Time will tell.

[Mokina]

I asked her about it and she snipped at me that she was going to help him. Now she IS all of a Sudden NOT going to help him and saying

I'm done giving EL a break because he's new. I will explain new concepts to him if he asks, but from this point on I'm treating him with the same scrutiny as anyone else.

That's a bit of a false impression. I

do

intend to help Eldritch Lord, but only in the realm of meta. Newbie game or not, the MafiaVirgins are easy targets for more experienced players, especially if said players are scum. Explaining the game is free, easy, and will help the town. Plus, it'll keep the mafia from trying to take advantage of them. I see no harm in it.

That said, it would be a terrible error for me to treat EL as guiltless. I'm trying to make a distinction between helping someone learn the ropes and aiding them ingame. It's entirely possible that he could be scum, so I wanted to clarify that he is not "proven town" in my eyes.

[Mokina]

A not for you tho, Lurkings /=/ Scum. Some scum lurk but the majority of the time you will find lurking draws attention which is what scum don't want, thus why I am not going to vote Lowell because of his lurking.

Saying that lurking =/= scum is treading dangerously towards the realm of WIFOM, but to be honest I don't have any reason to think Lowell is... it's more that he fails to scumhunt.

Lowell, if you are town, it would probably be a good idea for you to get with the program and start analyzing the thread.

[Mokina]

Unvote, IGMEOY: Lowell

It's hard to get a read on someone who never posts, and I'm not prepared to be a part of his lynch. Lowell, it'll really help the town if you contribute your opinions more. I'm still waiting on sideney to say something; it's been four pages and at least as many days now...

Prod Request: sideney

Donkeyz12 brings up an interesting point. Darla is definitely giving the town "lynch options," that's for sure. But it's kind of a hasty vote considering that there are two very different reasons for this type of behavior. Either she's scum carrying out a FUD campaign, or she's simply a townie making pressure posts.

I looked over her posting history. The second option looks tempting, considering this is D1 and we haven't the faintest clue what's really going on. I'm trying to put pressure on people too; hell, we all are. But I'm getting a strong scumvibe from the fact that she hasn't voted for anyone other than Eldritch. It's an opportunism thing; newbies in general are are an easy lynch, and EL is the easiest lynch in town.

All things considered, I like this wagon.

Vote: DarlaBlueEyes

[Mokina]

Sounds like a distancing post to me, after coming under scrutiny from the other players for your quick agreeance.

Neh. If they're scumpartners, this would be a

really

bad time for one to throw the other under a bus. Neither one of them has an existing wagon.

[Mokina]

Interesting, ok firstly, I havent jumped around, I am pretty damn sure EL is scum, I was weighing options, but none of tehm strong enough to cause me to unvote.

Exactly. You're sowing doubt in others without changing your vote on the obvious choice. If one of them ends up with a wagon, you'll have justification to join it.

EL & Mokina band wagoning is very OMGUSy since I have been accusing them.

Hell, you've been accusing everyone!

If they didn't look scummy before they look hella scummy now. and I never suspected ZS, gave mention to a POSSIBLY alignment but I really didn't believe it. and Since when Is changing your mind or deciding someone isnt scum after reading a few more posts illegal?

You've been doing it an awful lot now, and each time it follows some sort of town suspicion for the person in question. Without changing your vote, you're encouraging poorly-founded bandwagons.

Donkey your case is weak, especially since my first post was responding to a joke and the Iron Man vote was random. Obviously you are quite new as well so I won't hold the crap logic against you. :p

Please stop trying to devalue his argument. What is it that makes you so suspicious of EL that you would carry a vote from the start? I could understand such a steadfastness if you were a cop with a guilty result, but this is D1 and you've been following the town while carefully keeping that sad fact off your voting record.

Happy with my vote.

[Mokina]

I want to get reactions from other players too.

Please. I'd like someone else to look at Donkeyz's case against Darla.

[Mokina]

Are you confusing dcorbe and Donkeyz again, EL?

[Mokina]

Snix and Lowell? How do you feel about this? Sideney has promised to post. Hopefully mike-zim and dcorbe will voice their thoughts too. This is the kind of situation the entire town has to look at, and there may be something we have missed.

[Mokina]

Thoughts on Darla?

[Mokina]

anyways I am thinking Donkey is town, he doesn't strike me as scum, same for Snix, and TSN

As far as suspicions go, those are the three I would have picked for most protown. My own pressure vote aside, Darla looks clean. She actively scumhunts, but presents some very good arguments for a certain newbie we all know and love.

The only way anyone has ever been caught in Mafia is through a change of perceptions, given new information. If you're already voting for someone when that new information arrives, you may have to change your vote. Deal with it.

Unvote

I've been a little closed-minded here. I haven't actually looked at EL's voting record, despite the fact that I resolved to keep as close an eye on him as everyone else. He's a newbie, sure, but he has the same chance of being scum as anyone else in this setup. Hold on a moment...

Darla may actually have a point.

[Mokina]

You want an entire post devoted to EL? Granted.

Vote Snix

For buddying up with Mokina since early game, and because I think a MokinaXSnix scumpair is viable from what I've seen as of so far. Though, to be honest buddying up the way you have is probably a bit too obvious a scumtell to come from intelligent, experienced players such as yourselves. That is why I am voting for you, Snix, rather than Mokina; because although I am suspicious of the both of you--she has more votes and I would like to see how this ganging up you guys have thus far seemed fond of changes in reaction to this post rather than pushing for a lynch.

Poor argument. Both myself and Snix started scumhunting early on; that's the only similarity betwen us at that point in the game. Interestingly, around this point EL suggested a no-lynch, meaning that he's against the idea of looking for the mafia D1.

Depends on how you look at it, but how likely is it that a new-town player would push going to bed early... even without prior knowledge of the game conventions? Looking at his later posts, it just doesn't fit. Newbies with protown roles keep their heads down and ask a few questions every once in a while. After nine pages, EL sure doesn't look like the type.

Lowell pops up to support him, somewhat irrationally.

unvote, vote snix. To give Eldrich's ideas some legs.

Thank you for posting a vote based on my playstyle rather than content or scum-clues and offering no actual reasoning right before a period when you know you'll have limited access to mafiascum.net It makes perfect sense.

He immediately jumps on Darla for accusing him of poor logic. Plain and simple OMGUS, but probably a null tell. Moving on to something scummier, as he defends his reasoning behind the Snix vote...

Do not mistake game-motivating pressure for anger/passion. Truly, I have nothing against you for disagreeing with me on this random-lynch/random-vote issue, I have not attacked ZombieSlayer or Sideney for disagreeing with me. It is not personal, it is simply this:

1. The random vote you held for me even after you said donkey did something suspicious
2. The fact that you held that vote in synchrony with Mokina's until after I called it to light, which is when you chose to disagree with her.
3. The trap-question directed towards myself, a new player, that would have likely resulted in a quicker lynch if I had answered it in a manner not expected of Town. (Yes, I am new).
4. The fact that you are so quick to call your fellow townies "dumb", doubt their logic (Mokina), and claim that I also went ballistic on ZS and Sideney for disagreeing with me (if that's really the only reason I hate you, it would be true that I hate them as well) Despite the fact I think Mokina may possibly, might, kind of be scum--if you think she's town you shouldn't be so quick to doubt her logic, especially after agreeing with it for so long.

Classic scum straw-man. For those who don't do logic, that means you're misrepresenting someone else's opinion in a way that's easier to refute. I hadn't even noticed this post until I did my Darla reread, but here it goes.

1. Holding random votes is a matter of personal taste. It means nothing on p.3, though it might later.
2. It's a convention of the entire site that you don't no-lynch on D1. I fully expect someone else to call you out on it too.
3. The trap-question was pointless. It doesn't make him scum.

Mostly, this post is just drivel. We are at a disadvantage when analyzing EL because his poor logic could just be a result of his inexperience. It's not a viable scumtell.

That said, some tells are

more

reliable for newbies. The last part of his post is very interesting:

The fact that you are so quick to call

your fellow townies

"dumb."

To use the words of ZombieSlayer in my mishmash game... read this carefully. Read it quite a few times.

If you read the wiki enough, you'll stumble across a list of common scumtells. One of them is the Freudian slip. Only the scum know exactly who the confirmed townies are. Eldritch Lord has just referred to Snix and myself as "townies."

For the rest of the thread, he throws around suspicion indiscriminately and without explanation. Poor logic aside, I would say that there are too many slip-ups on Eldritch Lord's record to be the fault of inexperience alone.

Vote: EL

[Mokina]

By the way, Darla, I apologize for singling you out earlier. I the nearest person with a vote and tagged along. I suspect EL viewed me as a town ally at that point, and it was the perfect chance for him to hop on the wagon.

Also... third person on the wagon? Yet another good new-scum tell.

[Mokina]

EBWOP, amending above post.

I

found

the nearest person...

[Mokina]

Sideney agreed to do a reread, but noncontributing townies and lurking scum have the same effect, and I don't like either of them.

Prod Request: Sideney

[Mokina]

Still waiting on that content.

I might consider Sideney a viable lynch candidate if she posts without content but responds to prods. Personally, though, I would rather see her replaced than silent.

[Mokina]

Also, I'd rather replace Sidney rather than lynch because there are better candidates.

Not only that, but replacing lurkers with talkative people is always a good option. Lurker scum don't slip up as much, and lurker town don't contribute as much.

[Mokina]

In response to the "Freudian slip", it was because I was referring to the Town as a whole. Only 2 of the Town is mafia, so to call everyone stupid is still to call the Town stupid. That was all I meant by it, though I can understand why such a slip would bring attention to myself.

Well explained. I urge those who are currently rereading this topic not to judge EL on the tongue-slip alone. Again, because he's new to the game, he probably doesn't make a distinction between "the other townies" and "the other players" yet. In any case, it's a weak reason to convict someone of being scum.

Also, in regards to Darla, this is her first strong post and the first attempt I see at earnest scum-hunting. Post 212 just screams "I give up, you caught me." to me, I don't know how others feel.

Or she might be town looking to leave us with an "I told you so" post. Null tell.

FoS hopping by Mokina and DarlaBlueEyes

There's no such thing as "FoS hopping". It's called scumhunting. I invented the concept of "FoS hopping" to back up my case against Darla. It was a flimsy argument, but you took the wagon anyway. Scumpoints to you.

to sum up,

El is either a gaggingly new n00bie

or as scummy as the day is long

This strikes me as a bit of a sidestep as far as your case goes. Not to suddenly throw suspicion on Darla, but this would be a great post for her to quote on D2 if EL suddenly turns up town.

Darla, are you certain Eldritch Lord is scum?

Dcorbe, how do you feel about all this?

Lowell, are you planning to post again soon?

[Mokina]

Unvote (to prevent a hammer)

For the record, this is a good strategy. If I had been on at the time I would have unvoted.

Whereas hers has no excuse as she is more experienced.

Please. I have only ever completed one game, and it was a newbie game. My join date to the contrary, I'm newer than I look.

Way to sum up my feelings, her vote history always seemed off to me.

You've never mentioned suspicions for me before, Snix. But I'll discuss my vote history, if only for EL's benefit.

I vote-hop because it's D1. Same with changing around the FoSes. I'm putting pressure on people, trying to make them talk. I join existing wagons, but not well-developed ones. While one vote is insignificant, you start to defend yourself at two.

If you look at my record, I

don't

follow the town... in fact, I throw votes around fairly indiscriminately. When the votee talks, I listen to what they have to say. I proceed to unvote them when discussion is generated. My opinions change over time, and I really hope yours do too.

The difference between scumhunting and vote-hopping is that the latter is done opportunistically. Wagons gain momentum over time, and at some point they perpetuate themselves without any additional logic put forth in the thread. That's when the scum join. The scum don't care about pressure.

To be completely honest, EL's Freudian was the only thing I had on him apart from slightly bad logic in his earlier posts. Seeing as the "fellow townies" reference been somewhat attached to his inexperience as well, I'm willing to

unvote

too.

[Mokina]

Well explained. I urge those who are currently rereading this topic not to judge EL on the tongue-slip alone. Again, because he's new to the game, he probably doesn't make a distinction between "the other townies" and "the other players" yet. In any case, it's a weak reason to convict someone of being scum.

It directly conflicts with:

To be completely honest, EL's Freudian was the only thing I had on him apart from slightly bad logic in his earlier posts. Seeing as the "fellow townies" reference been somewhat attached to his inexperience as well, I'm willing to unvote too.

Actually, they're closely correlated. In the first post, I hinted that I had no reason to continue voting for you. In the second post, I unvoted you.

Please don't try to strawman me; it's mean.

Will deal with your other OMGUS attacks later. I no longer have much reason to think you are scum, but the way you're handling this is childish.

Or /b/ish.

[Mokina]

Actually, they're closely correlated. In the first post, I hinted that I had no reason to continue voting for you. In the second post, I unvoted you.

Please don't try to strawman me; it's mean.

The problem with the hint and the actual unvote is with the timing and placement.

Also, I am not straw-manning you, those are direct quotes. This is not an OMGUS, you unvoted me--I have no reason to OMGUS. I am not attacking you or your character--only your voting pattern, my apologies for when I said this (I did a re-read to try to find what made you angry at me)...

Will deal with your other OMGUS attacks later. I no longer have much reason to think you are scum, but the way you're handling this is childish.

Or /b/ish.

A blatant ad-hom with no relation to logic or the game. I would like this portion to be disregarded and possibly be deleted by the mod. This has nothing to do with the game and I hope your later post will be a good case in your own defense and not an OMGUS re-vote for me.

I apologize for jumping on you during a post where you were appealing to the emotional state of players, and it is not my intention to straw-man you (I didn't know you could do that using direct quotes that were full paragraphs not pulled out of context--unless they were and I overlooked something) or to anger you.

I'm simply here to play this forum game, but given the personal attacks on my character for reasons with no relation to the game--not make enemies, I may be looking for a replacement soon. I will think on this and get back with whether or not I should get replaced out, I am thinking that maybe this is all part of a scumplot or townplot or to draw me out or something. I look forward to your (hopefully) more logic-filled next post.

Sorry. That last bit was completely uncalled for, a stupid fit of emotion on my part. I am in full support of the town disregarding it.

You

can

straw-man someone by direct quoting them if you then proceed to rephrase the original context. In this case, the reason I'm accusing you of such an attack is because through your description of the context, you have created the impression that I was reacting to Darla's unvote.

Timing and placement are key in this game. On a small scale like this one, though, it's a little harder to distinguish strategy from simple availability. As it happened, I did not check Mafiascum at any point between those posts... in any case, I did not want you hammered.

I believed your reaction to be somewhat OMGUS simply you formulated your theory against me right after I brought up the whole "fellow townies" issue. At this point, I take back my accusations on that front.

I recall using "townies" to describe all other players when I was new, and it certainly shouldn't be held against you.

Okay, doing a reread with a clearer mind.

[Mokina]

...and I can't believe how quickly things change.

Believe me, I'm surprised myself.

[Mokina]

Will read up on dcorbe, posting later today.

[Mokina]

My vote stays on Mokina because frankly her almost incessant following of others and her insta-backtrack when town, most notably DBE, lost interest in EL. It reeks of someone trying to look like a town leader without actually taking responsibility.

My turn to defend, I guess.

I place pressure, and people talk. And frankly, why vote for someone who doesn't already have suspicion on them? If you're the first one to vote for a player, they aren't going to care. They aren't going to slip, reveal their scummy nature, whatever. They're going to laugh at you. At the same time, I avoid joining too late in the wagon, because a quicklynch on D1 is always a bad choice.

I don't regret my voting record at all. We have quite a few revealing posts now, and enough puzzle pieces to assemble a rather full picture of almost everyone.

Lurker, lurker, where are you?

Prod Request: mike-zim

Presumably, Lowell is still playing, despite a lack of contribution.

FoS: Lowell

[Mokina]

I am not liking this.

EL is so screamingly wishy washy I am reconsidering,

Starting from about 3 pages ago, He is CONVINCED it is Lowell, Then He is CONVINCED it is Me, Then he is CONVINCED it is Mokina, Then he is CONVINCED it is dcorbe, Now he Is Convinced its Mokina Again?

not liking this. Going back to my first intuition.

unvote; vote EL

this is just way to wishy washy, Make up your mind and try to prove a case instead of jumping on whatever is most possible and popular at the time.

Mokina, his scummy actions are saving you, but I am not convinced you're not actually scum, but he is just getting worse, I thought I could Ignore it, but I can't.

Can't agree with that; mostly because it's close to my own playstyle. I create a bunch of justification for a vote, act extremely convinced, and then quit pressuring them when they've said what's on their mind. EL appears to be doing the same thing.

If you want wishy-washiness, look at Darla's perception of EL. She successively votes and unvotes him over the course of the last few pages. I'm not saying wishy-washiness is necessarily scummy, but it's hypocritical to accuse someone else of being tentative with their votes.

Dcorbe looks like an interesting prospect, and I'll look into it.

Mike-zim seems fairly clean, but lurkish. He would do well to remember that lurking townies are of no use to us.

[Mokina]

please explain to me what lurkerish is? so i can try and get of more use!

any way my reason for voting for El is that when the pressure was on he was trying to cling onto any shread he had to get the finger pointed else where. Just seemed a little too desperate to me. But i could be mis reading it totally.

"Lurking" basically encompasses the failure to post useful opinion to the town on a regular basis. If you're playing the game but you don't post often, people might think you're mafia trying to avoid being seen.

Unfortunately, lurking is subjective and it usually isn't an indicator of alignment. The only clear-cut cases are when someone responds to prods but refuses to post in the thread, an obvious antitown behavior.

[Mokina]

Donkeyz... could you explain your reasoning behind the vote?

I just went back and read all of Lowell's posts - 8 posts total.

All of these are one liners pretty much. To me, these don't seem like suspicious posts. These seem more like redundant posts which really doesn't show any signs of scum searching or desire to play the game. I don't really find him suspicious, just rather not contributing.

I think Lowell exerts this aura about him that screams "LYNCH ME, I DARE YA" and then turn up townie. I think he's more unhelpful than anything so I don't know if he is scum material.

If you look back through his posting history, Donkeyz defends Lowell even though he's an obvious lurker and noncontributor. I can understand not voting for him, but Donkeyz went out of his way to defend Lowell. He does the same for EL even though the latter's playstyle approaches antitown. Defending noncontributors is a very, very good move for scum.

Just a thought.

Meanwhile, he jumps on the wagon against with no explanation. Okay, let's be honest; people don't like my voting practices. I could launch into an explanation of why pressure votes are important D1, but I won't.

Instead, I'd like to point out that it would be an easy move for the mafia to drop the word "vote hopping" in reference to one of the scumhunters, join a wagon, and fade into the shadows. It's also very easy to buddy up with people who don't appear to be scumhunting, and protect them from a lynch.

The fact that Donkeyz's vote was directed towards me somewhat devalues my argument to the level of OMGUS. Please ignore that for a moment and look at the situation objectively. I vote indiscriminately... that's easy to see. But remember that pressure voting is scumhunting. The people who vote opportunistically, who join wagons with no explanation, who protect people who aren't contributing... those are the ones you should scrutinizing.

[Mokina]

...those are the ones you should

scrutinize.

EBWOP in bold.

[Mokina]

Meanwhile, he jumps on the wagon against

me

with no explanation.

Ugh.

[Mokina]

Normally I'd say its time for EL to claim, but I don't think there's much utility in it in this particular claim. I'm still pretty sure he's town, though.

Why not? I think he's town too, but there's enough suspicion around him to warrant a claim.

[Mokina]

@TSN: Good point; well put.

[Mokina]

Why shouldn't he claim? If it does him no good to claim right now, it does him no harm either. There's people here who keep proclaiming that they get a pro-town vibe from EL but so far have not said much of anything else in his defense. I would like those people to explain themselves as well.

...

So, @EL: Claim now, tells us why we should believe you or be lynched!

Please see TSN's reasoning for why a claim from EL wouldn't make sense.

I'll sum it up... if EL is a doc he can do nothing to convince us. In the C/9ths setup, there's no such thing as a counterclaim so we'll have no reason to believe his claim. And if we

do

decide against a lynch, the scum will simply shoot him tonight and we'll be out a doc anyway.

No, a claim is a bad idea, dcorbe.

Eldritch has put enough time into analysis and scumhunting to count as protown on D1. New-scum just aren't that aggressive. By and large, they are lurkers, and that's one thing we can't accuse him of.

[Mokina]

The same goes for Iron Man who simply pops in to cast a vote and then "disappears".

I've been taking notes on Iron Man for a while; I'll post an analysis soon, I promise!

[Mokina]

If anyone is stupid enough to counter claim him (when we could have multiple copies of the same role) the scum know who to kill.

Agreed. Even if nobody else counterclaims him, the scum know he's a power role. If the town doesn't kill him, the scum will. The proposed roleclaim gives no new information.

[Mokina]

FoS: Iron Man

for opportunism. I'm still reviewing his posting record, but I'm very worried about this one.

[Mokina]

Mokina (Pro-town, possibly either doctor or cop)

I look way too suspicious for that sort of conclusion, at present.

Amusing as it may be for me to disagree with you, aggressive players like myself aren't necessarily protown. Moving one's vote quickly around could be scumhunting, but it could also be plain old scumtell (speaking as a bit of an IC).

Calling people out as power roles isn't a good idea either; if you're protown, the scum might take your advice and shoot me tonight. Other than a slightly better idea of who not to lynch, the town gains nothing from your suggestion. Putting together a list of suspicions is fine, but in general it's better to keep role-guessing out of it.

[Mokina]

There is no reason to claim townie in this game. The only claim that arguably makes sense is for cops to claim later so that they can claim results. . . and we should probably lynch claimed cops anyway.

On the other hand, dcorbe is a newbie. Newbies are prone to OMGUS suspicions, and they aren't exactly known for good reasoning with regard to roleclaims. If he's town, he might deem it suspicious behavior for anyone to doubt him. Foolishness should not be confused scumminess, so I'm is just reminding the town to tread carefully.

That said, foolishness is not an asset to the town and I am more comfortable lynching someone who might make bad decisions in the future. I'm not prepared to vote for him yet (nothing particularly stands out as scummy), but I have less objection to his lynch than that of one of the more analytical players.

[Mokina]

Sorry about the above post; I wrote it rather quickly. Hope you get the meaning, though.

[Mokina]

I don't really want him around at endgame, do you?

Nope... but I'd rather lynch scum than new-town any day. Let's keep talking.

[Mokina]

Mokina: What you said sounds very nice, "I'd rather lynch scum then new-town," but maybe you missed the

if

he's town, with that claim, and the meltdown,

he will never be nightkilled.

He'll be around tomorrow. And the next day. And the next day. And, of course, there's still a good chance he's scum, because, y'know, his play fits the profile of new-scum just as well as it does new-town.

Fair enough. Like I said earlier, I'm comfortable having him be today's lynch if there isn't an obvious alternative.

[Mokina]

I see where he was coming from about Mokina.

I must have missed it. What argument did dcorbe have against me?

I'm not going to hammer this one. I feel like the town should have no doubts by the time we reach L-1, and dcorbe seems like a desperate lynch to me.

[Mokina]

Aha. I interpreted it as "and now, in a way, I see where he was coming from..."

[Mokina]

Mokina: The town should have no doubts in a game where we have two scum to ten town? Good luck with that.

Neh... good point. But my opinion stands that the dcorbe lynch is a bit of a stretch. I'm not going to try to stop it, but I'm not hammering either.

[Mokina]

Most blatant attempt at question dodging I have EVER seen. And quite the serious question, too.

Neh... you're right. I hate to hammer on D1, but he hasn't responded seriously... and like you said, he's unproductive and never going to be nightkilled.

I might as well end this long day.

Vote: Dcorbe

[Mokina]

I'm happy to hear somewhat of a defense on my behalf from Mokina but the "clueless noob" defense really shouldn't buy me any sympathy at all -- especially if I'm considered erratic and unpredictable.

If I'm regarded by the rest of the town as unhelpful because of my actions then I should be lynched regardless of my alignment or perhaps even replaced out of the game so that someone else can mount better and more logical responses to what's happening here.

Thanks. I feel a little better about that hammer now. Or maybe I don't.

*crosses fingers*

[Mokina]

Darla, please don't jump on me until we see the cardflip. You're talking as if you already know he's town.

[Mokina]

I promised I wouldn't drop the hammer... I'm sorry...

I feel really bad about this; it was a hasty move after a long review of dcorbe's post history. He failed to scumhunt and instead followed wagons and whoever was going after him at the time, which looked like new-scum behavior to me. Combined with roleguessing in #400 and a very OMGUS-driven accusation against TSN, I was on the edge of voting. He didn't post for a couple days, so I did.

I should have waited a few more minutes =P

[Mokina]

As for the online lists, you're grasping at straws for evidence. I don't know about you, but I am not so compulsive as to check the online lists for lurkers before every post. Even if I had, the fact that dcorbe was online would not have meant he was not lurking. If anything, it would have added to my impression.

...and that snarky comment to me at the end was dripping with scummy WIFOM.

I still don't like EL/Mokina as a pair and with Snix cleared up I'm even more inclined to think thats where it is...

I feel very obviously framed here. As the person who dropped the hammer, I look suspicious of my own choice. So the scum kill Snix, and Darla helpfully brings it full-circle.

With regard to the

snarky comment

, as she has helpfully strawmanned it... no legitimate townies

knew

whether Dcorbe was scum, and her fairly certain response set me up to take the fall for a vanilla cardflip D2. Combined with her introductory post today, this page alone almost has me convinced that Darla is the scum. I urge the rest of the town to look at the setup.

When my own storm blows over, I know who I'm going to be PBPAing.

[Mokina]

I agree with TSN... Iron Man has been showing a pattern of lurking.

Previous impulsive votes on my part have not gone so well, but I would be willing to vote for Iron Man if he does not contribute. Pick up the posting, please.

Same goes for mike-zim. Sideney has gotten better about it, which is good.

[Mokina]

Mokina, you unexpectedly hammered on Dcorbe after specifically stating you were NOT going to hammer. Your justification in post 434 is simply not enough to convince me--explain why there was a super-sudden change of heart.

I don't really think of it as a change of heart... I simply forgot I'd promised it to the town and did a reread of dcorbe's posting. And everyone had a different, valid argument. It was page 17, and he was the first viable lynch I'd seen all day.

It was also very late.

It's hard to explain something like this once you've seen the cardflip, but to be honest it was a mistake on my part. With regards to the accusations of scumminess, I strongly doubt the mafia would have cast the last vote D1. Cry WIFOM if you like, but a scum wouldn't hammer the one person who flagged them as protown on the first day. That's just ridiculous.

Vote: Lowell

for opportunistic voting, a case that was first presented by mike-zim, another lurker but one who comes across as cautious town rather than "below the radar" scum, given his voting record.

[Mokina]

Unvote, Vote: Iron Man

Wrong lurker, my apologies.

[Mokina]

OMGUS.

However, Mokina, hammering dcorbe just screams opprotunism.

My hammer doesn't make sense for a townie, okay. We get it. I think what the town has forgotten to ask itself is... "does Mokina make sense as scum?" Call it an insensitivity tell, but it's ridiculous to claim it as a sensible scum move. And in any case, what was dcorbe going to say to absolve the suspcions we had against him? Would you have listened to anything he said? He'd made a vanilla claim; what more were you expecting?

Hey, I didn't agree with the rest of the town that he should have that one last token post. Forgive me.

...and trying to get the attention off herself.

I agree with EL's high horse impression. Hell,

you've

tried to get attention off yourself in the past. Face it; everyone wants to get the attention off themselves when they are held under scrutiny. Nobody wants to get lynched. I honestly do believe that Iron Man has at the very least been failing to contribute to the town.

thats like blaring sirens and holding up a sign that says I'm scum. Call it a freudian slip if you wish

You

are

calling it a Freudian slip. We've already decided that they can't be trusted; remember when my case against EL was shut down?

[Mokina]

At least you three, and zombie, have been trying. Wouldn't surprise me one bit to find both scum in our five lurkertypes. Iron man's been the worst, that's why I'm going after him.

Thank you Ninja Sir, that was actually very insightful.

For once, I agree with Darla... TSN makes a good point; the town

cannot

afford to overlook lurkers. Keeping quiet is only a null tell for so long. I can only assume scum are content to wait around and watch the more talkative members of a town fight it out, especially if they get the chance to bandwagon from time to time. That's why Iron Man in particular has come across as increasingly scummy in the last page or so.

I hate to admit it, but DarlaBlueEyes just doesn't give me that impression. Looking beyond my impulsive desire to inflict vicious OMGUS vengeance, there's very little reason to think she is part of the mafia. Darla is one of those few people who have been actively scumhunting since square one, while everyone else sat on their hands. That's hardly a suspicious case.

On that note,

FoS: mike-zim

... please post your thoughts on today. I'm also watching sideney and Lowell until they make good on their promises, but it's clear they intend to. For those who are still lurking, it's D2. Wakey wakey.

[Mokina]

Iron man's contributions to day 1 were telling people to calm down, bandwagoning el, bandwagoning, and saying he was concerned about making a slip that would get him lynched... its not just the lurking, its the lurking plus the bandwagoning plus the being concerned about making slips.

QFT.

[Mokina]

EL - typically in my experience a scum gets on a bandwagon inconspicuously vs. making a head strong case on one or two people and not swaying from it. WIFOMy coming from me I know, but its just a tip.

Yet another reason to look at the Iron Man case. He managed to remain inconspicuous throughout day one while still casting multiple votes, and that kind of behavior is noncontributing at the very least.

In completely different news, I will be leaving on the 21st. I'd like to

Request: Replacement

closer to that date, but keep me for now. This is an intriguing game...

[Mokina]

Again with the bandwagon guys. I still consider that we shouldn't target someone who wasn't that influential on the last vote. Iron Man had just been lurking but don't you think scum would have pushed for dcorbe knowing they were scum? I just kind of see Iron as like...there. lol

Wait a sec. He wasn't that influential? I seem to recall his vote counting for the same as everyone else's.

The people who quietly slip onto a bandwagon are the scummiest, not the vocal ones. If you're going to throw yourself out in front of the eyes of the town pushing a case, you're going to get noticed. Scum never want to get noticed. Therefore, it makes sense that a bandwagoning lurker would be scum.

From pure vibes, though, Iron Man doesn't

feel

like scum. He feels like a hapless newbie caught in a situation he didn't know how to avoid. I don't count him any scummier for wanting to defend himself... that's just newb points in my book. To be honest, my finger is on the unvote button and I'm not entirely sure we should press this lynch (especially after the dcorbe fiasco yesterday). Iron Man is also resisting OMGUS, which is admirable. There are other lurker-wagoners around, and I'd be inclined to unvote if another clear choice were presented.

Mokina is town. Why do we always blame the hammer when someone turns up town? If anything, we should blame the first votes, or those that innocuously slipped their votes in the middle. If we didn't want dcorbe to die, we wouldn't have put him at lynch-1. End of story.

...

DBE looks really bad. Her twilight rant says a lot, I think, as does her hasty cover-up. The fact that EL and zombie seem to be following her lead and attacking mokina rather than DBE is a bit alarming.

For a moment, it felt like Lowell was trying to ingratiate himself with me. The "twilight rant" was my first argument against her today, and he's restating it. But placing all subjective preference aside, buddying with me would hardly be a sensible mafia move. After all, nobody has attacked yet and I have inherited sketchiness from yesterday's hammer, so why would scum attack her and defend me?

Oh well. Might as well put my own suspicions out there.

Ladies and gentlemen, my current stance on DBE:

Darla had a single-minded conviction that both scum were among EL/TSN/Mokina as soon as the day began, not even bothering to look at the lurkers. Her targets were active scumhunters in particular, placing her vote on me based on yesterday's hammer.

I don't like TSN's play, and I just know I will die soon, because i can feel myself on a trail here, so I am saying it now, for when/if I die and this game is over, our scum is in the Mokina/El/TSN group one or the other may not be But I'd bet a lot at least two of them are.

I'd like you to read this next part carefully. The quoted post was (471), around the time it was becoming clear that nobody else was going to join the Mokina wagon she was spearheading. When TSN proposed that the talkative people in the town could all just get along (476), Darla came out of nowhere and

agreed

with him (477), soon unvoting (486) and saying she was "definitely interested in the Iron Man case," which had been steadily gathering speed. I present to you her last statement about Iron Man, from a page ago:

I have a sneaky suspicion he will come up town or at least not scum.

Cardflip setup, anyone? I don't know, but it scares me that she would change her mind about Iron Man so quickly after he became a viable lynch.

That's

opportunism, way more than the bandwagoning we pinned on Iron Man.

TSN: what makes you SO convinced neither Mokina or EL are scum?

She plays up TSN's certainty here, when all he's stated is that there's a lack of evidence in the cases. That's strawman, maybe rolefishing. It feels like she's grasping at straws for today's lynch; see post 462, where she puts EL's willingness to lynch Iron Man on a "blaring sirens and holding up a sign" level of scumminess.

TL;DR Edition:

I would be willing to vote for Darla instead of Iron Man if anyone thinks I'm not just jumping at shadows; in my opinion, it's a stronger case. I'd rather not vote for her without giving her the chance to reply, anyway. For now,

FoS: DarlaBlueEyes

.

In other news, a ZS reread might be in order. The FoS last page set him up for his recent vote, and neither came with much explanation. I'd also like to make a

Prod Request: mike-zim

.

[Mokina]

@El
No offense, but blatantly stating that you would try to quicklynch a lurker instead of trying to dig farther into it, kinda sounds a little scummy to me.

Null tell.

Think of it this way. Would you, if you had been assigned the role "Mafia Goon," say you "wouldn't mind running the risk of him coming up town"? That's far just too suspicious for intelligent scum. I hate buddying up with EL, because it'll add more fuel to the Darla fire, but all the same I no longer trust Sigmund Freud to tell our inner motives from the stupid things we say.

I just realized we're at L-2, and that's dangerous enough. All the argument against Iron Man are attributable to newbiness, and there isn't really a solid case going against him. It's a bit like what TSN said about Darla's case against myself and EL: there's just not enough read, and bandwagoning someone who simply sits there and protests his innocence doesn't feel right. I'm no longer buying the Iron Man lynch... the ghost of dcorbe is haunting my dreams.

Unvote

; let's think about this.

[Mokina]

No offense, but blatantly avoiding content for fear of being lynched, bandwagon sneaking, and lurking is a little scummy to me. Your post does not offer Town anything, it simply tells me that the reason I'm voting for you is justifiable.

Careful. Just because someone doesn't contribute to the town doesn't mean they are scum. To me, it just feels like there are other, much more scummy options out there.

[Mokina]

Mokina and EL are constantly validating and defending one another, it drives me up the wall. if you guys are not scum, PLEASE stop, so I can let go of my nagging suspicions of you two.

I refuse to selectively validate other players' arguments based on your whims, Darla.

Some things EL says are stupid, but most of it is very well-reasoned. You should listen to him, really... you might learn something. If you think we're buddying up rather than simply both taking the same train of thought, you're welcome to give quoted examples.

Since D1, I have discovered that EL is not a clueless newbie. He may be trying to ingratiate himself with me, but that may require a reread. I'm too lazy to do that without specific examples from you to work with.

[Mokina]

Of the two I suspect mokina more and you all can say im being black and white but I'm so sure mokina is scum.

I would even give up a signature space for whatever she wanted if she were not

.

That's

an interesting tactic. Please write "Mokina OMGUSed me" in your signature now, you scumbag you.

Vote: DarlaBlueEyes

for the reasons mentioned in #501. I urge the town to read over my argument and think about whether it makes sense. Feedback would be appreciated.

[Mokina]

lmao mokina that did nothing to help you at all.

The OMGUS comment was sarcasm. I have valid reasons to vote against you, outlined in detail a page ago. You, on the other hand, have voted for me, retracted your vote, and then voted for me again... all based on whether or not my suspicions rest on you. In the words of ZombieSlayer, wishy-washy is bad.

Darla's choice to replace her vote is very telling. Happy with my own.

[Mokina]

Mokina FOSing the "lurkers" is not good.

FoSes don't put anyone closer to a lynch. They do, however, get people posting. Keep in mind that even a vanilla townie isn't helping the town one bit if he or she lurks. I pressured them to start talking, and they talked. It didn't much matter their alignment. The more the scum talk, the easier they are to spot, and the more the townies talk, the faster we reach a conclusion. I stand by my reasoning.

I'm kind of concerned that you don't see lurking as a valid argument; scum are at least as likely as anyone else to want to keep their heads down. Assuming the mod plans to replace those who don't pick up on prods, it's completely safe to FoS people who haven't been posting.

There was about one instance where Mokina/EL disagreed over each other (once each) D1/D2 and they quickly retracted their votes. TSN refused to vote for either without a truely good reason, only saying he thinks lurkers are more likely to be scum, which i can agree to to an extent, but his refusal to look at the other two based on activity is anti-town.. This is just way too much for me to deal with, when half the town is lurking. So if you must, put me out of my misery, and town..good luck. You're gonna need it.

This doesn't feel like a scummy post to me. Is this real or a trap?

[Mokina]

They do indirectly, and in no way should you be suspicious of a lurker until they voluntarily aren't replaced and don't post.

Problem is, you don't really know when someone "voluntarily isn't replaced." Keep in mind that at the time it was apparent that some people in the game were picking up on prods without posting. That's what I meant by lurking.

[Mokina]

If I said Scum always defend each other, and you say, no they don't, and i said, well they would expect us all to believe that they would not be so dumb as to do so, so they do it, and claim its WIFOM that scum would not do that.

Horray! Way to bring reverse psychology into this discussion!

You illustrate the very nature of WIFOM here. Armlx argued that scum would defend each other if at all possible, and EL stated (correctly) that making assumptions about whether or not scum would defend each other is impossible to validate. Easy to see, end of story.

I feel like you've got a lot of tunnel vision against EL. I can give you the benefit of a doubt and review his case, but you really shouldn't take that mindset looking at any player, even one you're arguing against. That post about the WIFOM feels like you're

trying

to find something wrong with him, rather than simply noticing an error.

[Mokina]

Keep in mind that at the time it was apparent that some people in the game were picking up on prods without posting.

Was it? BTW, that is what I mean by what you singled out.

Singled out? Elaborate.

[Mokina]

Incorrect. Scum defend other scum where it is valuable to do so. However, when defending them would not decrease the likelyhood of their eminent death, it is not worth doing and bussing occurs.

That makes more sense; sorry to misquote. EL responded to your point by mentioning that it's not possible to verify what a given set of scum will do. My concern about Darla still stands; she's being a bit narrow-minded in her assumptions and seems to be searching for evidence against EL. That might be part of her black/white dichotomy, so it's a null alignment tell. All the same, it doesn't help the town to think that way.

To answer your question, my own FoS was directed towards those who were picking up on prods but failing to post, meaning that they were actively avoiding discussion. They might have been lazy town or they might have been scum, but I had no qualms about trying to get as many people posting as possible. To that end, a pressure FoS is very effective (except on Lowell, who seems to be immune to it).

[Mokina]

FoS armlx.

Por que?

[Mokina]

Ok, way too much meta here.

Meta is good, but it won't work on Lowell. He has an infuriating no-read thing going on in all his games, not just this one.

[Mokina]

Based on my first round suspicions...and the jumping around of votes.

It's funny that you in particular would call someone else out on that... >.<

[Mokina]

Nah. I jump my votes around too, so it would seem hypocritical for

me

to explain it. But just look at how many of your posts are votes relative to discussion contributions.

[Mokina]

Strange sense of urgency for my claim, especially since it would not do me nearly as much good as a comprehensive defense, which I am putting together.

Oh wow, missed this. Claim stalling from EL on D1.

Lynch him please.

Whoa! I'd reread but I'm leaving tomorrow. This is an interesting thing to point out, though.

[Mokina]

I want to leave my replacement with a clean slate, so

Unvote

. Armlx is right, though, that's a major link between TSN and EL.

[Mokina]

"if I was cop/doc, this is who I investigated/protected."

I dunno about that for docs until we have a no kill, but hypo coping is debatable.

Hypo cop'ing would break the game, I think. Good for the town, though. Hypo doc'ing would just be stupid.

[Mokina]

Hypo-copping is awkward in that we can assume a cop with a guilty would reveal usually, and if someone says one of the mafia they know they aren't the cop.

That close to a lynch, it wouldn't much matter. It makes a lot of sense for L-1 cops to claim their role in this game, if only to provide a list of confirmed innocents.

[Mokina]

Hypo-doccing is actually really bad. We should never do that. I just remembered that if we do it will reveal the doc if there is a no kill.

But... I totally agree with you here. Stupid choice for the town.

[Mokina]

What we might want to do is have every player, prior to lynch, say "if I was cop/doc, this is who I investigated/protected."

Talkin' about this. Seems like a good plan, at least for cops. If the cop is ever cardflipped or otherwise exposed, we review the hypos and find who they actually investigated. We then assume said investigees are innocent.

[Mokina]

Good point. And if cops try to subvert that by giving false results, they hurt the town.

Okay, toss hypo.

[Mokina]

Note: Regarding hypo claims, I'm talking about as a L-1 claim, not as something everyone should do.

Claims make a lot more sense at L-1. In C/9ths, a roleclaim at that oiubt probably won't prevent a kill, but we should agree not to hammer without one anyway. If a player is about to be lynched and is a cop, giving a list of investigated players will help the town after the cardflip regardless.

[Mokina]

at that oiubt

EBWOP: "at that point..."

[Mokina]

Farside22 replaces me, effective immediately.

That's not really official but this is my last post. See ya, it's been fun!

[Mokina]

*appears*

Well, well... an interesting final scene.

DBE:

I was tunnel visioned on you and thought one of the lurkers was your partner. Go figure. I agree with Snix's impression of a spastic, indecisive town (and one I probably contributed to).

In retrospect, I should have kept my head down a little more. I got way more attention than a cop should.