Starcraft Mafia -- Game Over!

[Mitillos]

Hello everyone.

VOTE: Irrelephant for not confirming yet.

While I have your attention, please explain why you switched votes between your two posts.

[Mitillos]

Until post 30, I was ready to convert my random vote on elephant to a real one. After that I no longer do, but I want to correct him. @Irrelephant: "whom".

Nobody else pings as scum yet either, so I'll wait for more people to talk.

I predict that I'm going to have a lot of trouble reading Creature and the worst.

p-edit: Not sure I get the skitter gut paranoia. Could the two of you elaborate?

[Mitillos]

@Performer: I am not an alt. I just haven't played in a very long time. Also worst posted before irrelephant.

@worst: Is Rel Irrelephant? If so, I'm kinda looking at his finished games right now, to see if he does wagon-hop a lot for no reason. I'll tell you afterwards.

@skitter: Creature because I don't much like it when people say something like "I'm a survivor" (or similar) early on for no reason and tend to automatically be biased against them. worst because aggressive players are harder for me to read in general, and he seems to be one.

Fifth p-edit: Good lord, I'm just never going to manage to post this, am I?

[Mitillos]

@the worst: I'm sure you're perfectly fluffy. Aggressiveness is a separate property altogether. We'll probably talk at length later. As for Irellephant, I've seen a ton of games he joined late or didn't talk for a very long time (ignoring these), and a bunch of newbie ones where he is the SC (ignoring these too). Other than that, looking at his recently finished games, I've seen three games where he doesn't wagonjump a lot as a townie, and one where he does as mafia. Unless someone else who has played with him a lot wants to provide additional data, I'm going with this and with the OMGUS on me, so now my vote is serious. Could you explain your Performer vote? I thought his post was pretty standard RVS.

@Nauci: If it ends early, that's how you know it worked. :Þ

@AlmostNancy: Any reads yet? Also, any response to skitter's request about signing your posts?

[Mitillos]

@Irrelephant: You jumped votes between your first two posts (which were within a page of each other) as mafia in micro 824.2 (and I note that on that one your jump was away from the wagon on your scumbuddy).
By comparison you took longer to switch votes in mini normal 2042 as town, and even when you did switch, you almost immediately unvoted.
You also took your time to switch votes in mini 2018 again as town.
I'm having trouble finding the third one again, so maybe I was wrong about that. But hey, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

@worst: Irrelephant himself claimed that he likes wagons. Shoshin said that his first two posts were Irrelephant-town. I was looking to match or counter these claims. I don't know about your Performer position. It was his first post and still early in the game, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to be out of RVS like that. You had the benefit of 3 fast-paced pages, but he wasn't here to be subjected to that. I just don't see it as alignment-indicative.

@Shoshin: See above for numbers of the games. Also, reason for your Performer vote?

By the way, this might become a recurring theme, so just to address this in advance: I will always ask why people vote for people, if they don't provide reasons (assuming I spot this and am not busy with other discussions). I consider anything less than explaining oneself clearly as being anti-town at the very least.

@AlmostNancy: That was about Irrelephant, not Creature. Anyway, I have never played with Irrelephant. If I'm not mistaken, I've played two games with Varsoon, and maybe a couple of games with N_M? Those might have been MishMash, though. Everyone else is a complete unknown to me, unless they are alts.

[Mitillos]

@AlmostNancy: I'm not. I did what I said I was going to do in post 67, and had a look at a few of his recent games. If you mean why I was looking for the wagonjumping in particular, it was because Irrelephant himself used that as an explanation for his votes here, and because Shoshin (who has presumably played quite a bit with him) said it seemed like town Irrelephant behaviour.

Incidentally, I saw in post #1 a mention of "informed status" not being revealed on flip. I've never played in a game with informed players, so I was wondering if the information they have should be shared with the rest of the town. Thoughts?

[Mitillos]

@Nancy: The thing is scum already has a lot of information, since scum know who they are. Information is the one thing town is lacking. My real worry is something that skitter touched on: we'd lose information from those who are nightkilled, and I like information. And now I've said "information" so many times it's weird.

Anyway, I think the information I have is good for the town to have in advance, and unlikely to be something that scum don't already know (since they have daytalk per post 0), so I will go ahead and share it:
There are no roles with the ninja modifier.

I'm liking skitter quite a bit, so far. Since "gut" is useless on its own as an explanatory tool, attempting to communicate her reads better is what good town does.

@Shoshin: I would still like an explanation for your Performer vote, please.

[Mitillos]

@Shoshin (my finger keeps trying to move to the 'e' key as I type your username): There are two problems with that: 1) As I said in earlier posts that just looks like regular RVS to me. Can you elaborate on why it's scummy? 2) How exactly can you compare Performer with everyone else for scumminess, when by the time of the most recent VC, three players hadn't even posted yet, and another three had 1-2 posts? If you mean he was more scummy than the other people who aren't lurking, that's fine, but it kind of misses a very large and sickly-looking elephant in the room.

[Mitillos]

@worst: Hard scumreading? No, just a bit. There's not much else in his content yet, so I'm waiting to see atm. I'm also waiting to see what the lurkers will say. e.g. I don't like Xtoxm's one post.

@Shoshin: OK, that's a line of reasoning I can definitely follow on Performer.
Edit: Explain the new vote, please.

@teacher: Why does voting someone you didn't get scum vibes from make Shoshin scum? Or are you voting her for some other reason?

Oh, cool, Varsoon is here. Now to sort out whether it's N's N. N. N. Varsoon, or Among the Chosen Varsoon. So far he looks like his town self, so that's not a wagon I'm interested in atm.

Saudade looks like Majiffy a lot. This one will be another one I'll have trouble reading.

[Mitillos]

@Shoshin: I'd rather not talk about that quite yet, and wait to see what he does for a few dozen posts, instead of just saying "Hey, Varsoon, here's how you can convince me you are town, enjoy".
Also, I wouldn't consider it a waste of time, so I'd like to see your response to Varsoon, but I won't insist if you really don't want to.

[Mitillos]

@Irrelephant: Aww, you ruined it now.
UNVOTE: Irrelephant11 222 was 100% town, and the previous stuff wasn't bad either.
I will note that ignoring SI games is valid, because you have additional... responsibilities if you will, which could easily affect your playstyle. Also, games where you joined late wouldn't have told me if you wagonhop in RVS. However, you're right, what I did was definitely agenda-y:
worst probtown for posts 116 and 159 (amongst others). I'm ambivalent about Nauci for post 179. To those who play with her a lot: Is she always particularly careful and deliberating, or is she more like this as one alignment than others? I want to townread her for it, but I don't want to be biased just because I like her playstyle.
Shoshin is still town.

[Mitillos]

You took it from him.

[Mitillos]

@Irrelephant: Yeah, pretty much.

[Mitillos]

@Varsoon: Irrelephant has you in the null pile, and has even said 2-3 times that he thinks your play seems town. Why are you so defensive towards him in 297?

[Mitillos]

@Varsoon: That doesn't address the defensiveness, though. If you're annoyed at someone who is townreading you but otherwise wrong about someone else, where exactly does the "I am threatened scum" line come from? Also, which one from those four are you currently suspecting? Is it still Shoshin, or?

[Mitillos]

Mine, I think.

[Mitillos]

Sorry mod, couldn't resist.

@Shoshin and skitter mostly:
So, here's the thing. I think town Varsoon is more happy-go-lucky, doing stuff for fun and profit, and not giving much of a shit. Scum Varsoon on the other hand is more wary in my mind. Originally he looked like town here, because his attack on Shoshin seemed genuine, even if I think it was incorrect. With more recent stuff, I've changed my mind on him, though.
I'm thinking of Micro 302, where he showed very similar behaviour as here (which is also why I questioned him on his defensiveness). In particular, his posts to Irrelephant strongly reminded me of this post. He also seems to be going for a lot of AtE towards Shoshin and a few others which is again similar to what he did towards me in Micro 302.

I'm not seeing the scumminess from Performer and Xtoxm, nor the lack thereof from teacher, but I'm open to being convinced (because I don't really see their towniness, either).

[Mitillos]

@Nauci: I've definitely seen scum vote together, if they thought they could pull it off on charisma alone. Also, I think post 0 mentioned the possibility of third parties, so that's another dimension altogether.
I think I see what you mean about performer being self-conscious. I'll reread because you may have a point there. As for xtoxm, you could make the same accusation on N_M, and to a lesser degree teacher. In fact, I will remind you that teacher's post (177, so 8 pages in) just had a soft defense on Performer and an unexplained vote on Shoshin. xtoxm at least gave some content (e.g. telling Varsoon he is not townreading skitter). At this time, I'd be more suspicious of teacher than xtoxm.

[Mitillos]

@Varsoon: Is your calling Shoshin town sincere, or are you still upset about the policy lynch thing (or possibly something else)? If it is sincere, please explain your read on her.

[Mitillos]

@worst: He came in, said a whole lot of nothing, except to ask Varsoon if they're on the same team. (Incidentally, I don't think his wording is as suspicious as you and others suggested, but that's just me.)
What bothered me there is why he didn't bother to do anything else. If he considered this to be the start of the game, why not participate in RVS? If not, why not read a bit (his was post 106, there weren't that many yet) and give his opinions? It just didn't look good either way.
Most of his posts aren't great, with #308 being the only one that makes me want to wait and see if he's a slow starter type, and is going to start providing more content at some point (hopefully soon).
I'm leaning slightly scum on xtoxm, but I think there are more interesting people to read through, and look for a good place to vote.

[Mitillos]

@Creature: Really? Post 392 looks to me like an excuse to lurk a lot. "Oh, I'm not lurking scum, I just don't like the players' behaviour".

@worst: Fair enough.

[Mitillos]

@Creature: Sure, they might not come in with that intent (although some do, and in fact some just outright lurk), but I'd imagine many of them would at least want to have that option if it's needed. Also, this wasn't him coming in. It came well after a few other players voiced suspicions on xtoxm.

[Mitillos]

It depends on whether the town in question is prone to paranoia, and whether the scum in question is afraid that the townblock will stay solid throughout the game.

[Mitillos]

I've reread Performer and I'm not sure I agree with the self-consciousness thing as such. The thing that does bother me from his posts is in 277, where 1) he doesn't like Shoshin because she says the votes on Varsoon are good but doesn't vote him (despite the fact that one can have more than one scumread), and then in the same sentence 2) he doesn't like Shoshin for moving her vote on Varsoon. It's like Shoshin is damned no matter what she does, here. He can be on the slightly scum-leaning pile for now.

[Mitillos]

@Varsoon: Your response tells me that you really don't give a shit right now whether we figure out who is scum or not. You really are making it very difficult to take you seriously and not just dismiss you as functionally anti-town. Mafia is a co-operative game. If you are town, how about you try some calm sincerity? Then the rest of us can see and evaluate your reads, and either vote like you, or voice our disagreements. If you just want to go with what Shoshin says because you expect her to be wrong and want to gloat about it after the fact, then you're just screwing the rest of us over for your personal vendetta. If you're just upset now and you can make it pass, please hurry up and do. Either way, I await honest responses to my questions, once you are ready.

[Mitillos]

Did someone say math teacher?

@Nancy: I explained why teacher was more suspicious than xtoxm in the very post you quoted. His vote is without any reasons given, his post devoid of content except a weak and non-committal defense of Performer. That's even less effort than xtoxm had put into his posts.

@Varsoon: I claimed information. It got buried in my verbose style. Also, you should try to do something about that bitterness, quickly. Some of us have been explicitly asking for your own reads, and you insist on going on about how Shoshin is infallible. This is not helpful or relevant. Just because most of us are townreading both Irrelephant and Shoshin doesn't mean 1) we are automatically correct, 2) they are correct in their reads, or 3) we don't care about your reads. But you have to make the effort, and yes, show your work.

[Mitillos]

I don't particularly want a teacher lynch at this time. I was simply discussing relative rankings. He needs to get back here and post thoughts, before I'd even consider that (which is also why I'm not voting him).

[Mitillos]

worst: Oh, I misunderstood your intent there. I thought you found the phrase suspicious. My mistake.
I said already why I didn't like his first post. It's everything from "What bothered me" up to "either way".

[Mitillos]

@Nauci: Please explain your vote.

[Mitillos]

VOTE: Performer

That unannounced L-1 is troubling to say the least.

[Mitillos]

If Xtoxm does flip scum, the most suspicious will be skitter for rushing to jump off.
And Varsoon is right. Scum don't just lolhammer on D1 after making only a handful of posts, that would be suicide.

[Mitillos]

Hey, so, I'm going to be somewhat busy through Monday (grading mostly), so my output will be minimal (I'll still be around, though). Afterwards, I'm going to make a thorough reread of everyone and give a comprehensive reads list, at which point I should have at least one solid, serious scumread, despite this being D1 (since the question was asked).
In the meantime:

@Nauci: When you add Varsoon to your list, please also add Creature. I'd like an explanation on your Saudade read, as I'm null on him.

@Irrelephant: I believe you claimed PGO. If that was a serious claim, could you also tell us your flavour?

@Shoshin: If N_M quickhammers as both mafia and town, then wouldn't the fact that he didn't do so here be non-alignment-indicative? Scum-N_M might avoid hammering because Xtoxm is his buddy, or because he wants to avoid being suspected by those who don't know this meta of his (e.g. me), or because he is worried that Xtoxm is vengeful. The last two reasons would also be valid for town-N_M.

I'll ask more questions to the rest of you if I think of any.

[Mitillos]

Getting prodded hurts.

I'm still happy with my vote, given that Performer put someone at L-1 without even mentioning that he did so. Nothing has changed there.

Skimming what's been going on, I think that despite the sketchy stuff, Xtoxm might just be frustrated town who isn't completely sure about the meta of the players in this game. I know I am.

[Mitillos]

I have a question for mewtaph (and amid when he gets here): What do you think of your predecessors? Had you been playing as a different slot, how would you have read them?

[Mitillos]

Yes. I meant the predecessors of Mewtaph and amid, respectively. And the 1 post doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are many relevant factors, like the post number, which tells you how much had happened by the time the post came about.

[Mitillos]

@Nauci: You know, maybe you're right. Otherwise it would have said "replaces", probably.

[Mitillos]

Well, I didn't budget my time properly, so I'm going to have to split this up into multiple posts over a couple of days or so, hence I'm starting a day early. So let me start with the short ISOs.
Also, I'm really glad people are finally getting on board the correct wagon.

Performer

: His entrance wasn't great to a bunch of people, but I saw nothing particularly wrong with it. The defense of Varsoon was a bit weird since one would expect "policy lynches are wrong" instead (especially given the later posts 264 and 962). I already talked about the problem with 277, where it looks like it's just an exercise in looking for an excuse to vote Shoshin more than anything else. Then he fluffed a bit and FoS'd everyone who voted him except me (Shoshin, worst, Nauci, irrel, and eventually Creature), which is kinda meh in itself, even if he said it wasn't OMGUS. In 715 he starts throwing suspicion at Vars linked to Shoshin, but at least that one I can understand if one doesn't read Vars' posts as being sarcastic.
In the same post he says he has to reread Xtoxm, then when Shoshin makes a vague minor threat, he instantly switches his vote from Shoshin to Xtoxm, joining Shoshin, worst, Vars, and irrel (all four being players he has claimed suspicions on), and putting Xtoxm at L-1 without even mentioning this to be the case. Note that he definitely knew that the wagon was large and getting traction, given that he explicitly said in 715 that he needed to reread Xtoxm to see why he was being voted.
The "Rory Swann is an engineer" thing could easily have come from a scumchat as others have mentioned. Bit tinfoily, sure, but still possible.

Read: Scum. Join this wagon, and bring rope.

Saudade/Kokichi

: Saudade provided a big pile of no content. Thankfully, Kokichi came in and basically told us he's scum in posts 1497, 1501, and 1535, so once we've sorted out a couple of his buddies, we can have another look at Kokichi.

Read: Lean scum, but needs more content, so I'm willing to wait until he catches up.

Teacher/Mewtaph

: Teacher's one post pinged me, because it's basically saying "Performer is always scummy, but not this time". The naked vote on Shoshin is also problematic, because if Teacher was reading enough to say that Performer was not scummy, he would also be reading enough to have an actual reason to vote Shoshin. It can be defended as RVS, though, so I'm discounting it for now. Then we have Mewtaph, whom I am really liking so far (mostly). He gives his reads and explains them carefully, showing his thought process so that others can follow it and determine if they agree or not. The only thing that gives me pause (other than his predecessor) is his somewhat amorphous take on Performer, which started with "scum!Perf wouldn't post his town playstyle" (he totally would, if he considered it something he could emulate as scum), and ended with a vote. It could be uncertain town or it could be scum who is trying to keep their options open.

Read: Lean town.

N_M

: Virtually no content, two naked votes. Normally, I'd put this in the "lurker and therefore leaning scum" pile, but N_M also played like this as a Lib in two Secret Hitler games, so I'm willing to leave him at:

Read: Null until more content.

Keyser

: I like how he prodded and questioned Skitter, and once he got a better understanding of her way of thinking reassessed his position. I disagree with his early Irrel-Nauci theory (which he has also changed his mind on), but both that and his case on Irrel are town-indicative to me, as they seem to show sincere scumhunting. He's been asking questions, but also following up with his own thoughts and comments, not just leaving them there to appear inquisitive. I don't really have much more to say here. I'm pretty sure there's no need for a deeper case.

Read: Town.

Xtoxm

: Disgruntled, and others have already mentioned it could be disgruntled scum (including a reference to a previous game of his with similar vibes). I don't like how in 949 he basically townreads anyone who is townreading him and leaning town on the person engaging him (and may therefore potentially townread him afterwards). Is there an inverse of OMGUS? Maybe OMGILU? I want to check if his reads on e.g. Nauci and skitter (and any others) changed based on whether they were voting/scumreading him or not. Post 1207 seems to suggest this. I'll check on this later. Also, I'm not sure why he's leaning scum on N_M, because he never mentioned him before, or explained said read, as far as I can tell. (Oh, hey, look at that, I can comment on the quality of your reads, guess I must be scum.)

Read: Lean scum.

That's everyone with fewer than 100 posts, so far. More later.

I would like a Performer lynch. I am not particularly opposed to a Kokichi or an Xtoxm lynch, but they'd be secondary choices at best, and can see myself changing my mind on them with more content. With regard to the more active players, I've been ambivalent from time to time on Creat, Vars, AlNan, Irrel, and very very slightly on Shoshin (sorted here from least to most towny for your convenience), so I'll want to reread them again next. I'm still fairly solidly townreading Skitter, Nauci, and worst, so I'm leaving their ISOs for last.

[Mitillos]

@Performer: No, you are scummy because of your vote on Shoshin with an explanation that doesn't really follow (what with her being scummy for not voting Varsoon, and then again for voting Varsoon), for your OMGUS FoS streak, then for switching your vote without explaining what makes Xtoxm scummy and joining a wagon full of those you suspect (instead of voting one of them).

@Nauci: Not necessarily. Another person in scumchat could have offhand said "That's an engineer" or something. That's not indicative of Irrel-Perf. I try to concentrate on personal tells rather than associative ones early on. In any case, in itself the engineer thing is not that big a deal; absent everything else I wouldn't even give it a second thought.

[Mitillos]

@Kokichi: Sorry, I mostly check-in, post if I have something to post, then leave again. I don't really do the real-time conversation thing. My read on you is based on both Saudade and you. His big pile of nothing is somewhat scummy. Your "I'm so WIFOM lol" is somewhat scummy. Also, you're right about AlNan there. And it's one of the things that made me ambivalent on them.

@Keyser: Yup. Irrel claimed PGO. I asked for his flavour. He claimed Rory Swann. Performer said that Irrel said that Rory Swann is an engineer out of nowhere. Someone (I think Irrel) said that it tinfoil made him think that maybe someone in the scumchat said this instead and Performer got it from there, which seems like a somewhat reasonable scenario.

[Mitillos]

@Kokichi: Pretty much. Hence lean. Also it was like... 3 joke posts. As for your thing about AlNan, it's not enough to change my read on its own. Keep up the scumhunting, though, and I'll change my mind.

[Mitillos]

@Kokichi: Nice misrep there. I am doing my own scumhunting already, and I will be looking into them, as I mentioned in my wallpost. I am more likely to townread someone if they scumhunt (without fallacies). As for the whole "I joke as everything" and "everything is NAI from me", those are not NAI thoughts or posts. They are scummy, because they read like preemptive attempts to deflect scumreads on you. Speaking of misrepresentations, I just remembered another reason for scumreading you: post 1511. Shoshin is saying that she is townreading everyone not mentioned in that partial quote you made of post 1505 and that *all* scum are in those 8 players, yet you turned it to there being *some* scum in there.

[Mitillos]

@Irrel: I know you rescinded it, but I'll still answer it: Because Performer is scummier to me. Also because Kokichi is getting on my nerves, whereas Performer is not. This means I can be unbiased about Performer, and just look at whether I think he is scum or town. I need to wait for more posts from Kokichi to determine if I'm just reacting to his posting style, because if so I need to reevaluate my read on him. As for Keyser's towncase of Performer, what is there to say? He identified some unusual aspects of Performer's posts and is considering them townie as opposed to scummy. I don't. If pressed, I'd say that Keyser didn't like that too many people were townreading each other early on, he saw them jump on the first Performer wagon and thought it suspicious, thus making Performer town in his eyes. This is all perfectly normal stuff, especially since Keyser is now looking back at Performer with fresh eyes.

@Skitter: Please provide the posts that townpinged you from Performer. If he is a mislynch, we need to know sooner rather than later.

[Mitillos]

At this point, I will also be happy with an N_M lynch, just to get rid of the contentless lurker with the three unexplained votes and no reads (as he is a wildcard by definition).

@Creature: Many happy returns. Stop voting yourself.

@Kokichi: I was responding to you; you explicitly asked me if the AlNan thing changed my read of you. I can't decide if you're extremely busy (NAI), or just not giving a shit about this game (technically NAI, but it makes things difficult for the rest of us), or if you were just looking for any excuse to scumread me (kinda scummy this one) and moved away from that the moment it wouldn't pan out. Also I've always been rather lazy with respect to quoting, so that's somewhat on me, too, I suppose. I will take back the misrepresentation accusation, and call the whole thing a misunderstanding, instead. I will note that if you do happen to keep scumhunting and find something that I miss and then make a clear case that I can understand and agree with on someone, it is possible that I will also change my mind about them.

@Performer: The thing about OMGUS and analysis is that they are not mutually exclusive. You had already claimed a townread on me a few times when I voted you, which would make it awkward for you to suddenly change your mind just because I voted you. Your only cases are on Shoshin (I already explained the problem with your take there) and irrel (and I will admit that this analysis was perfectly fine on your part). Personally I can't discern where you got the rest of your reads, because you don't seem to be explaining them at all. You say that your reactions to those voting/suspecting you were not OMGUS. Here's the problem: once is happenstance; twice is a coincidence; three times is a pattern. You even removed your scumread from Shoshin and said that it was basically because she shifted her attention to Xtoxm instead of you.

@Xtoxm: Not calling L-1 is at the very least anti-town. Scum can walk in go "I'm sheeping such-and-such, oh that was a hammer, oops didn't realise, g'night everybody". Town misses the opportunity to pressure a scum-read player for a claim, and get a better handle on them, possibly deciding to unvote too. Joining the wagon on you in itself was not scummy. The problem was that Performer had made a number of claims of scumreads or suspicions, but did not even try to get a wagon started on any of them. If you read what I said carefully, there is more information packed in there. Look at Performer's and Shoshin's conversation around the time of his vote on you. I won't insist on the scumchat thing, since it's a bit convoluted and not exactly required for the case.

@Keyser: See, the love mostly came from the ladies at first, so it's alright if you didn't understand it. Also, it's very cluttered behind your eyes, so I won't be going there again. OK, I'll stop trying to be a comedian now. And yeah, I understand that your Performer read was also based on e.g. meta, but 1) I was just summarising to answer Irrel's question, 2) I considered your description of Performer's meta weird, given that it was mostly scummy behaviour, and 3) even Performer disagrees with your description of his town meta (I suspect he might have found parts of it a bit insulting, to be honest).

Speaking of finding things a bit insulting, @Nauci: Are you implying that you were expecting me to say something dumb in my wall? Also, it's a pretty short wall. You should read it.

[Mitillos]

@Nauci: Fair enough. Also his vote should be an indication of his top scumread.

@Creature: Explanations as well, if you would.

[Mitillos]

Hey everyone, so I'll have to turn out to be a bit of a liar, but I will not be able to do the rest of my reads just yet. Deadline for the thing that's been making me busy is 20 hours from now, and I'm not quite done yet, so expect me back after I get a rest from that.
Apologies.

[Mitillos]

@Nauci: Sorry, no can do. Grading finals. When I'm done. For now I will say that my current lynchpool is Perf > N_M ~ Kokichi > Xtoxm > Creature.

[Mitillos]

I'm happy with a Not_Mafia lynch, because contentless lurkers who don't explain their reads are anti-town by definition.

VOTE: Not_Mafia
That's L-1.

@Keyser: I've been called controlled and measured (even robotic) before. People were reacting to my posting style. Please, consider the possibility that you are doing the same.

I'm back and working on remaining ISOs/reads now.

[Mitillos]

Oh, actually it's L-2, because Nauci is doing shenanigans. Carry on.

[Mitillos]

More reads:

Creature

: Makes 28 posts before he gives anything resembling a read with a reason. Then another dozen or so, before giving another couple of reasons for his reads. After that, he becomes more engaged in the game. Eventually he slumps back to not giving reasons, and even votes himself. He is a bit all over the place, and my prediction came true. I have trouble reading him, because he just won't respond to questions a lot of the time. (I'm still waiting for explanations for his scumreads.)

Read: Null, leaning scum, because of the on-and-off coasting.

Varsoon

: I mentioned before that some of his behaviour here reminds me of a previous scumgame of his. There was a very distinctive defensiveness and paranoia about people grouping up against him, which I had seen in his scum game but not his town game. His thing about Shoshin took entirely too long and was very annoying to watch. However, then came an interesting twist. He said he was just going to sheep Shoshin, but at some point (I make it around post 750 or so), he starts engaging the game, giving reads and opinions, and being generally solid. Before this point, I would read Varsoon's posts and shake my head. Afterwards, I'd be nodding, instead (or at the very least understanding his points, even if I disagree with him).

Read: Leaning town after a crescendo.

Irrelephant

: For this one, I'm just going to give the things that give me pause. Consider everything I don't mention to be perfectly fine. 1) His claim is kinda meh for me. If he really is a PGO, he should have kept quiet about it and try to attract a nightkill. If he isn't, he shouldn't lie about it. Both of these are under the assumption that he is town. 2) He asked Shoshin 2-3 times why she is townreading me, and even though she never responded (this will come up again when I do my Shoshin read) he didn't do anything about it (as far as I can see). In other words, he seems unwilling to reevaluate his townblock.

Read: Town but with flecks of paranoia.

AlmostNancy and Shoshin will take quite a bit of time to sort through, so they will have to wait. I'm still leaning town on them, so it's not like the reads on them are urgent. I'm also still townreading skitter, Nauci, and the worst.

My preferred lynches remain as they were in post 2049. To reiterate: Perf > N_M ~ Kokichi > Xtoxm > Creature.
I am willing to get on a wagon on any of these five.

[Mitillos]

@Kokichi: Consider my vote as in a quantum state of being on every one of those five players. I will observe and collapse the wavefunction when there is a good consolidated wagon, as opposed to this splitting up into three.

[Mitillos]

Mathematics.

[Mitillos]

@Performer: Yes.

@Nauci: Aww, thanks.

[Mitillos]

@Shoshin: If you did, then I missed it in the avalanche of posts and I apologise.

[Mitillos]

@AlNan: I'd imagine that if Kokichi truly was a mislynch he'd tell us his flavour, explain his reads more clearly, and stop making moronic posts like 2234, 2236, 2247, and 2251. N_M might potentially be a mislynch, but on the other hand, he's not contributing anything except noise, which makes him anti-town at the very least.

And to answer an earlier comment (I think by Kokichi): Anti-town may not be the same as scum, but the way for town to get better is to stop being anti-town, not complacently thinking that being anti-town is acceptable.

[Mitillos]

@AlNan: What exactly are you telling me there? Kokichi is not telling us his flavour nor explaining his reads in that post. He's just stalling. As for why he's townreading N_M, it's because the way we've been going there are three other viable wagons that can build up at a moment's notice: Performer, Xtoxm, and Mewtaph. He's trusting that we'll get off N_M, and also not go for himself, because of his (probably bullshit) claim.

[Mitillos]

Hey, worst and skitter. I think Mewtaph's town. You should pick a new wagon. This N_M one is really cozy. A Performer one or a Kokichi one would be nice, too.

[Mitillos]

@AlNan: N_M has one post "explaining" why he's saying worst is scum, and even that one doesn't track. He voted Performer and Keyser, and has called worst and Varsoon scum, and the most he can say about any of those is that worst is scummy because he is paranoid about the gamestate (without even doing a minimal analysis of worst's post). There are over 2000 posts, and he has used exactly one to pretend to explain one of his current two reads. This is not scumhunting. This is just throwing shit around. There's nothing petty about his reasoning, because there is virtually no reasoning.

[Mitillos]

@AlNan: Newbie 1900, Micro 817.

[Mitillos]

@AlNan:

I think this is town!NM but if someone has a link to an NM scumgame, where he’s doing similar to what he’s doing here, I’ll reconsider but I really think he’s more likely than not flipping green.

Don't move the goalposts.

[Mitillos]

@AlNan: You said that if someone can show you scum-N_M doing what he's doing here, you'd reconsider. I provided you with two of those. You responded by linking a town-N_M game where he also does the same, instead of doing as you said and reconsidering. That is classic moving the goalposts. You switched from "show me scum-N_M doing this" to "show me town-N_M doesn't". That's not how this works.

To reiterate: You towncased N_M based on meta. I countered your towncase with evidence of said meta not being limited to town. The reasonable course here is to abandon said meta, and look at N_M another way.

@Kokichi: Will you tell us the flavour of your role?

[Mitillos]

@AlNan: I think you are confused. I showed you that the meta you had was NAI. I did not use it as a way to scumread N_M. But since we agree that it's NAI, look at what the rest of us have been saying about our scumreads on N_M. Also, saying you'll listen to Creature on this is moving the goalposts again. In any case, Creature already named N_M as one of his three scumreads. Be nice if he explained any of them, but what can you do?

[Mitillos]

@AlNan: Post 1853 came after post 1376, and lists N_M as a scumread. And in 1376 Creature was saying only to not lynch N_M today (something he repeated in post 1849). The context of all those posts and the ones around them seems to suggest that Creature was scumreading N_M throughout.

[Mitillos]

Loving your subjunctive mood.

[Mitillos]

@Kokichi: Because your claim seems incredibly contrived, and your resistance to revealing the flavour (even after being asked repeatedly) is telling of someone who is bullshitting and simply trying to get by on that alone. So here is an ultimatum: tell us the flavour that goes with your D2 IC on your next post, or be permanently scumread.

[Mitillos]

Kokichi's claim is clearly a lie. Along with all the fallacies (appeal to emotion, appeal to authority, and many many others), there is nothing good here. I no longer care about voting anybody other than N_M or Kokichi today. Anyone who is townreading Kokichi had better make an exceptionally good towncase.

[Mitillos]

I mean, I'm still voting N_M, so, yes, obviously that's going to resolve itself.
The thing is, Kokichi has been trying hard to defend N_M, so I'm guessing that N_M is the more powerful role.

[Mitillos]

Well, Performer topped his terrible unannounced L-1 with an even more terrible claimless hammer.
VOTE: Performer

@AlNan: We may have been wrong about N_M, but he didn't do much in the way of towntelling. And his nope at me was not about the minimal analysis. He corrected himself, and said he meant to nope another part of my post (quoted in yours, making it even messier and harder to follow the conversation). But he definitely didn't do any analysis. He gave basically no explanation as to his worst scumread, except for quoting one post and calling it scummy.

@Shoshin: By the same argument, neither did Kokichi's townread on N_M track. I think AlNan was just townreading N_M correctly (though I'd argue it was for a bad reason), and isn't necessarily scummy for it.

[Mitillos]

Also, the flavour of the deaths is interesting. They were both "shot", and we can see that both were Terran and used bullets (with the flavour "shot"). From what I can gather, the other factions in the videogame are aliens, and presumably wouldn't use bullets. Does this mean that either 1) only town killed anyone, or 2) scum are also Terran?

[Mitillos]

@Shoshin: She seemed convinced that her meta townread on N_M was valid. I can definitely chalk that down to confirmation bias (given that I disagreed with the reasoning itself). Also, if she were scum, you'd think that she'd be just making empty "he's town" posts, for the credit. My impression was that she really really wanted to stop the lynch. I don't think she is scummy.

Also, all this is irrelevant, because Performer is by far the scummiest player this game.

[Mitillos]

@Shoshin: I can answer why she townread N_M, and I already did (because she already explained it, herself). I cannot answer whether her reasoning fits her town meta. As for throwing shade at your slot, tempers are high, what with us lynching a doctor. I can accept such things as coming from town generally. If Nancy is not capable of these things as town, that's another story, but I don't have the meta for this suggestion.
When I made reference to empty "he's town" posts, I didn't mean just those words. I meant half-hearted non-effort at explaining or defending N_M. I'm defending her because I think that your reasoning for scumreading her is fallacious. I don't like fallacious reasoning. I don't like fallacious reasoning even when it comes to a conclusion I agree with. In fact, as town I once defended another player against fallacious accusations, and made my own case against him in the same post (and caught a lot of flak for doing this).

@AlNan: No, I honestly don't think there is anything there indicating Shoshin-scum. Her attack on you can easily come from town, and is not completely unreasonable. I just think that you're town and that she's honestly mistaken.

[Mitillos]

@Nauci: Performer is the scummiest because he was already the scummiest (per my previous reads), and then he added the hammer. The same case from yesterday holds and is augmented. I can easily see a scum bp being given a town bp fakeclaim, so I don't believe his claim. I'm also not liking how his claim came at L-2, without prompting. It looks overeager.
I don't really have much to add about Keyser. I'm still townreading him.

@Nauci and worst: I don't know this reundo person, but thanks for the compliments.

[Mitillos]

@Nauci: To avoid a claim and possible unvoting and a new wagon on himself or one of his teammates. Also, I don't necessarily think it's a matter of being more or less careful, as such. I just think that as town he'd want to hear N_M's claim and give him some more time to make it. Crumbs? Something about butter and a biscuit? Seems like nonsense. At the very least I don't see how that, in any way, is supposed to say "I'm bulletproof". If it's just generic "this is crumb" posting, then it's worse than useless, because one can claim that for absolutely any role, which means they can come up with the role in question later. Not sure what your last question is about.

[Mitillos]

@Performer: I explicitly said in the signup thread that I know next to nothing about StarCraft, so I'm not sure why that would be surprising to you. As for it being a real crumb, it can still be a real crumb for a fakeclaim, so that's neither here nor there. Nice OMGUS, though. Being "run up" is what is ridiculous here. There was a quickhammer yesterday that everybody saw and a lot of players disliked (which is also why you were being "run up", as you put it). Do you really think anyone would quickhammer you, after that, and not be subject to the same scrutiny?

Not sure what to make of AlNan's claim. In other circumstances, I'd have suggested we mass flavour-claim. But given that the doctor was medic, I'm a bit wary of going down that path.

[Mitillos]

Just FYI, starting in about 9 hours, I will be in transit (mostly by plane) for a good chunk of the 24 hours after that. Consider me V/LA during that time, but I will be back after that (and I will see if I can read what's happening during that time, but I'm not holding my breath).

[Mitillos]

Back.

@Nauci: No change. Performer is still scum, but now he's flailing and reaching, trying to find some way to get out of his current predicament. Varsoon's unannounced L-1 is scummy too. His blasé attitude about it potentially being the hammer is not great, either. On the other hand, being overgamed is a thing, so... I can at least see the possibility of it being merely anti-town (which is still bad).

@Performer: Kokichi is probably scum. After that, not sure. Maybe Varsoon? Maybe Xtoxm? Or AlNan? I'll have to reread some ISOs. Also, you keep saying you don't OMGUS because you don't vote someone just for voting you: that's not what OMGUS is. Or, at the very least, it's not how it manifests, because virtually nobody is enough of an idiot to say "you are voting me, therefore you must be scum", and actually mean it. We keep accusing you of OMGUS, because of a pattern of behaviour; specifically, you seem to generally find scum in those who scumread you, and generally townread those who townread you.

@worst: This game has been very active. 6 hours is not the narrow gap that it would be in most games. That hammer was opportunistic, because had N_M decided to claim, we would all probably have moved to either Performer or Xtoxm (or Kokichi at an outside chance), given the previous wagons.

[Mitillos]

Before anyone asks, that unannounced L-1 by AlNan is also scummy.

@Key: you should probably claim, in case someone decides to silence you pre-emptively.

[Mitillos]

@worst: Because whenever an L-1 goes unannounced, it gives the opportunity to scum to hammer and go "Oh, I didn't realise that was hammer, whoops". And given that Performer is still not lynched, I'm pretty sure that in such a scenario, scum would just get away with said hammer.

[Mitillos]

So, I don't really have much to add here. I would like to see Mew's full claim, as well, what with the invisible stuff. I was townreading him, but now I'm wondering.
Did we ever find out whether a gunsmith would be able to detect non-terran killing roles? Also, I didn't like Keyser's shifting read on me, as he's been moving me consistently down the pile, with just "I'm worried he was trying to pocket me" as an explanation. I'm going to be looking at whether he's been doing similar things with his other reads.

[Mitillos]

@Nauci: I have explained my main scumread. The other two wagons are on my townreads, as I mentioned before. There is nothing of substance I can add, and nothing in particular that I want to ask, at the moment. I may also have some jetlag.

@Mewtaph: If I understand you correctly, I think you should keep your info to yourself, for the moment.

[Mitillos]

@Nauci: I am still scumreading Kokichi (same reasons as before, plus his claim that got changed all of a sudden), but I'm willing to wait until he either proves it or proves that it's bullshit, at the end of the day. I am also still leaning scum on Xtoxm (again, same reasons as before). Beyond that, I'd probably be looking at Varsoon and AlNan, but I'm not sure if I can easily articulate what pings me about them (plus, there's scummier people out there, so I'm kind of ignoring them for now).

[Mitillos]

@Shoshin: Because I'm scumreading Performer, and leaning town on Mew and Key. And I already explained why I was townreading Mew D1. His scumhunting looked genuine to me, and his reads and explanations were actually possible to follow. I have been having some trouble understanding the reasoning of a number of other players, in the instances where it was actually provided.

[Mitillos]

@Nauci: I was townreading him, now I'm only leaning town. The reasons I'm leaning town on him are exactly as I laid out in my wall post, way back. The reasons I've lowered it a bit are 1) his unexplained moving me around on his reads (still haven't looked at whether he's done the same to others, but I should, as it's a short ISO), and his gunsmith claim, which seems like it might fit scum more, here.

[Mitillos]

@AlNan: No, there are absolutely no ninjas in the game. No town ninjas, now non-town ninjas, no ninjas whatsoever. Also, I've been looking at a starcraft wiki, and I would like you to look back extremely carefully and think really hard about whether your information makes Kokichi more suspicious.

@Performer: I (and others) did ask for explanations. The reasoning didn't track. And it wasn't just about Mewtaph.

@skitter: It's not that town can't be illogical. I am also townleaning on AlNan, and you will recall I said that they've used fallacious reasoning before. But someone whose reasoning follows and is plainly possible to understand is more likely to be town, simply because they are not relying on fallacies; i.e. errors.

@Varsoon: Out of curiosity, do you get a result if scum try to kill someone and are blocked/jailkept, or only if their kill is actually attempted, as it were? In other words, does it look like there could be a jailkeeper around? Also, along the same lines, if you happen to be jailkept, will you still get whatever results you'd normally get?

Incidentally, Keyser's role, if true, is more of a half-investigative one (in that it doesn't tell us as much as a real investigative role). I wouldn't be surprised if in addition to his, we also have another less effective investigative role, like a watcher or something.

[Mitillos]

@Varsoon: I disagree with you and the others: I don't think you made a mistake. Is there even anyone scumreading you? Honestly, I doubt that you'd have survived long either way (and I mean that as a compliment), so giving us your info good and early was probably the optimal play here.

[Mitillos]

Honestly, there is a very good reason I haven't been changing my reads: every time I get here, there are half a dozen more pages (which is a bit annoying, since I prefer when people concisely and clearly make their points), mostly involving my townreads rehashing the same stuff over and over, so there isn't much new to deal with. However, I will admit that maybe I've been hardtunnelling a bit on Performer and Kokichi, so I will reread Keyser's and Mewtaph's ISOs (and maybe a couple of others), to see if I change my mind.

[Mitillos]

Hello, everyone.

VOTE: Kokichi

First he's an IC, then he's a D2 IC, then he's an N2 IC, then he's an N2 IC who might not show up immediately on N2, then he's still not confirmed on D3. This shit ends here.
Also, he was going to hammer Perf if he got to L-1, then he said he was cool with any of the three wagons, then he voted Perf and said he didn't like said wagon.

Kokichi is scum, and he was trying to protect Perf by claiming that he'd hammer Perf thus hoping to slow down (or even derail) the wagon.

[Mitillos]

Hello all.

Nauci lied yesterday, and I didn't get a chance to tell you, as the day ended before I saw it.
Nobody visited her on N2. She made the whole thing up.

VOTE: Nauci

[Mitillos]

Votecount 4.1

Not Voting (8): Shoshin(0), Keyser Söze(0), the worst(0), Mitillos(0), Varsoon(0), Nauci(0), AlmostNancy(0), Performer(0)

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 4 deadline is in (expired on 2019-01-04 22:53:28)

FLAVOR

Spoiler:

They're asking for a claim, and I need to know if I can use the Science Vessel claim, instead of the Ghost Academy.

[Mitillos]

I'm a science vessel, informed motion detector. I visited Nauci on N2, I saw no visitors.

[Mitillos]

@worst: I'm just telling you what my role PM says. If the wiki says different, that's not on me.

[Mitillos]

You guys need to stop voting me, and start voting Nauci.

[Mitillos]

VOTE: Mitillos

Holy shit, but you guys take ages to lynch obvscum. Thankfully we got there at last.

OK, so here's the deal: I'm a spider mine. I'm an informed double-vengeful townie. I know there are no roles with the ninja modifier in this game, and if I get lynched I can blow up to kill up to two players. The reason for this whole charade today is because it looked like town was going to mislynch Keyser today, and I absolutely had to stop it.

Here are my final reads:

KEYSER IS TOWN

. His role is a bit of a modprank/negative utility, because of all the prs in the town. My first large theme had three seers (werewolf-finding cops) and no werewolves. It caused a giant fucking mess of town v town v town. Don't suspect him for something like that, since it's beyond his control. His post today was an attempt to catch me out as the witch; if I were the witch and said so, the town would be able to avoid lynching me and go for groupscum, instead. That was some good thinking there, Keyser, but it didn't pan out this time.

Shoshin is town. Literally obvtown for ages, but particularly during the Kokichi lynch.

Nauci is town. Not much to say here, because again, obvtown.

Varsoon is the witch. Others have discussed this already.

Performer is scum. Another quickhammer, and a lot of bullshit fluff today, to pile on to everything from before.

Nancy is scum. She's spent a whole lot of time basically generating noise through AtEs, and trying to unnecessarily convolute the discussion around Nauci and the witch. You will also recall that I asked her if her flavour thing made Kokichi more suspicious. She said she wasn't Duran, so the obvious other major infected Terran (based on some SC wiki) was Kerrigan; I expected the flavour thing she was talking about to be that. Saudade (who was replaced by Kokichi) came in saying that he was sad he wasn't Kerrigan. That should have pinged something to at least one of AlNan's heads, if they were honest. AlNan's vociferous veto on a Performer lynch is also telling.

tw is scum, by poe. Also by what I will say next.

This brings us to the last revelation of the day: Performer is a high priority roleblocker. This is why Nancy and tw are claiming "normal priority roleblockers". They are trying to attract attention to themselves and away from him, because he is their pr. I'd say that the other two are goons (or maybe one is a godfather, or something).

And with that:

Detonate: Performer and Nancy

. Hopefully this will give us a small chance to win.

[Mitillos]

Comments:

@theworst: My first post in the dead thread was a response to your post after my selfhammer. I realised you were scum on N3, which was one of the reasons I changed my night action (lucky you! :Þ). Your scumtell was the buddying. You were blatantly doing it all over the place, and I had unaccountably missed it until a reread. It would be understandable if you were just buddying those you played with before, but you were also doing it to me, a complete unknown.

@Shoshin: I would have loved to win with you, despite my hatred of being any sort of non-town role. You got unlucky with your dousing (in that most of the targets died soon after anyway), and with worst blocking your nuke. Your scumplay was excellent, and certainly on par with worst's (if not slightly better, because I figured him out and not you) in this game. Had I known that you were a bulletproof 3p, I wouldn't have tried to get myself lynched on D4, and created more chaos overnight instead. Still, I'm a bit annoyed that you wanted me to lose for playing to my wincon.

@N_M: You could be the best scumhunter ever, but this is worth absolutely nothing if you will not share your reasoning for others to see and follow. As far as I am concerned, your reads hitting the scumteam was luck, given the lack of explanations. Mafia is a co-operative game.

@Keyser: Don't rush to scumclaim. For one thing, 3p wouldn't know if they could trust you, or even if victory would be guaranteed at that stage, which is why I didn't accept your offer.

@Nauci: Don't rush to claim. Even if witch knew your action, scum would not, and you basically all but told us that you were investigative with your roleblocked claim. Also, be more paranoid.

@Nancy: Please stop making posts one after another, please don't quote entire walls if you are only responding to one thing, and please stop reiterating the same thing over and over. Because of all this stuff (as well as the massive amounts of useless back and forth between scum and 3p trying to fill the thread with noise, but that one's not on you) after a while I stopped reading the thread and simply started skimming everything. More importantly, I would have done the same as town. So, please try to be more succinct. Also, you should avoid being indignant at people for not townreading you instantly and permanently. They need time to sort you out, like everyone else, and if anything it shows that they respect you enough to not write you off instantly.

@Kokichi: As I said to N_M above, mafia is a co-operative interaction game, not a first-person shooter.

@Varsoon: I can understand disliking the multiball setup. However, the pessimism doesn't suit you, nor does the sardonic fake praise of another player. You're much, much better than this, and there were glimpses of you being better than this when you briefly stopped with that stuff, to the point that I was scared you'd lead the town to victory. Town was not gutted N1. It could (and should) have lynched scum for the next 2 day phases at the very least (specifically the godfather and the rolecop), and be just fine.

@Performer: Honestly, you should have been lynched D2 (D1 if people listened more), and the fact that you were not was more a failure of the town than any success on your part. Still, it worked well for both of us.

@the rest of you: You did well, but got unlucky. If the roles were distributed slightly differently, I'm certain town could have won this one.

@Krazy and his back-ups: I did my duty to Amon, and messed the terrans up. Thanks for the excellent modding!

[Mitillos]

We are praising her for her ability to pass as town, despite the fact she was not. We are praising her for coming close to the best scenario for her victory (remember, she needed to make sure that mafia was never the majority, but also that town was never free of mafia considerations, in order to win). We are praising her, because she strung along most of the town by the nose.

You say a lynch of Shoshin was impossible: that's kind of the point. That she made herself impossible to lynch. After that, the only way for her to die was if I redirected her to herself and she nuked, and I was never going to do that. She could have easily been called out more on her wagon-jumping and unexplained votes by the town - she was not. She could have been asked why she ignored scummy behaviour a couple of times - she was not. The town just accepted her as one of their own, and she fed into that.

[Mitillos]

I would suggest that I was a reasonably good 3p. I needed to make it to N3, and afterwards I needed to die since I was a non-killing role and town wanted to eliminate killing roles. I also wanted as many town deaths as possible and managed to be part of three of them by the time I was lynched (I don't count irrel's death as being something I caused, because that was just luck and not something I planned to do).

[Mitillos]

@Varsoon: I still think you're great at this game, when you want to be. If irrel was still alive on N2, I would have probably sent you to him, because you scared me. I also think that you are being a bit solipsist here. The game is not just about you. There are other players too, and the ones who ruined you were the scum players who played to their wincon, and the town players who didn't. Kokichi was worth 3 votes, and he squandered them, and you definitely didn't tell him to. N_M had the reads and was too stubborn to explain them and got mislynched.

[Mitillos]

@Keyser: I was actually responding to tw (who also still needs to read my post to him in the dead thread), but thanks all the same.

[Mitillos]

Fine, then. Not a single-player fps, where you are the hero of your own story.

[Mitillos]

A read has two parts. Its content and its explanation. N_M's reads were only halfway formed, in that they had no explanations. The same is true of any read where the justification is "gut", and never goes beyond that. This is what I mean when I say mafia is co-op. The town has to actually work together, not just post reads and votes. When others ask for justifications you should be prepared to give them, otherwise your reads are worthless irrespective of their accuracy.