Starcraft Mafia: 2 -- Game Over!

Michael Scott
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Post Post #3366  (isolation #400)  » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:54 pm

The slot was a lynch option for us for the most part, and we also actively started a wagon there. Yeah, if your accusation is that we have bad associations with the slot, our defense is the above^ + obviously our hard pushing the slot in D3.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #3367  (isolation #401)  » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:59 pm

In post 3365, pinturicchio wrote:It's pretty easy to understand, yet you keep going on and on repeating yourself to make my case look bad. It's okay, I get it's the only way so no hard feelings.

You acknowledge you look worse than us.

If we lynch our partner as town leader, actively, you wouldn't look any better than us.

It isn't a "far more risky" situation. We'd lynch ProFlavor, and we'd be in the same situation as now with just one player instead, and you wouldn't be "obvtown".

What am I missing here? I've offered the explanation to why we lynched in your pair in the first place (confidence levels) and our day play is consistent with it.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #3368  (isolation #402)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:04 am

In post 3348, pinturicchio wrote:the one who would benefit with his flip at the end because of counterclaiming and proving that a strongman exists to get even more towncred for his claim

Lol, I never once brought up that we know Strongman exists and that should give us towncred.

*Funnily* I feel like Mewtaph and you had this "let's frame Auro for killing Fire to reap towncred" idea and Mew tried to bait me into saying this when he asked why I thought that NK happened - and then you try to use this as evidence I'm scum when I never even brought it up.

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Post Post #3369  (isolation #403)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:29 am

In post 3351, pinturicchio wrote:The strongman makes sense with one BP and AC's role who could kill the interceptors. Two BPs is implausible setup wise

There's a vigi too. It does make sense.

Also do you still maintain that Mew is my buddy? If Varsoon decides to lynch in the other pair, would you go for Mew then? ;)

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Post Post #3372  (isolation #404)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:41 am

UNVOTE:

Going to unvote just in case Pint is considering self hammering, as I plan to continue posting more evidence for the Pint/Mewtaph/Jjh scumteam.

- Volxen

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Post Post #3373  (isolation #405)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:42 am

Varsoon, we're expecting Pintu to self-hammer and we'd be NK'd: Who would you lunch in LyLo? Volxen and I strongly believe Mewtaph is the last scum, Volxen is asking for some more time so he posts evidence before a potential self-hammer.

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Post Post #3374  (isolation #406)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:44 am

In post 3361, pinturicchio wrote:'Cause it says automatically kill TWO interceptors, that means it blocks an attack with interceptors from the air unit like the one that happened last night, like a BP. How could "automatically kill two interceptors" if it is the scum air unit flying over AC? So no, I'm not "just" using this to say you're scum, you're scum because I have good reading comprehension


That still in and of itself doesn't confirm what you are saying is this case, because the wording in the role PM might intentionally be general to account for different game sizes. For example, in a larger game with 4-5 scum there might be two scum air units, and the town-aligned anti-air unit would kill up to two scum air units (such as interceptors) that pass over the anti-air unit, but in this game there happens to be only one scum air unit.

The only way we can be 100% certain of this is to have the scum air unit flip and see their role PM because there are only two possibilities:

1) That the scum air unit is the Protoss Interceptor ship itself (see: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Interceptor_(Legacy_of_the_Void)) and they would get killed if they flew over Almost Chara.

2) Based on Starcraft gameplay/lore, the other possibility is that the scum air unit is the Protoss Carrier ship (see: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Carrier_(Legacy_of_the_Void)), and as you say they deploy Protoss Interceptor's that perform the nightkill, and Almost Chara would shoot down these Interceptor's rather than the Carrier ship itself (i.e., the scum player themselves).

Either way, you are being incredibly reachy here pushing this narrative that this "proves" that we are scum via "too many BP's". Look at the nightkills -- has there ever been a failed nightkill attempt? No, there hasn't, which strongly implies that scum has knowledge of there being a town-aligned anti-air unit, and that was used to balance the game. For the first three nights all of the nightkills were carried out by a scum ground unit. Then suddenly after Almost Chara dies, the scum air unit takes out Firebringer, who had one-shot BP. Clearly that means the scum air unit definitely has the ability to bypass the BP, and both of the scum ground units most likely do NOT have this ability.

Even with the second interpretation of Almost Chara's role PM, it's balanced because Firebringer and us are BP against scum ground units only (i.e., our armor would block one killshot from a scum ground unit), and Almost Chara is BP against scum air units only (via shooting down the interceptors). Two out of the three scumteam members are a ground unit and one is an air unit. So all the scumteam has to do is keep having the ground units perform the nightkills until the anti-air unit is killed. At that point "normal BP" becomes irrelevant as long as the scum air unit is alive because they can bypass the BP. And lo and behold, that is exactly what has happened in this game. So I see nothing that "proves" that we are scum via two "normal BP's" (us and Firebringer) against scum ground units and one BP against scum air units (Almost Chara) being overpowered, because that makes sense and would be balanced especially if the scumteam is aware of the presence of the town-aligned anti-air unit and how it works (and the sequence of the nightkills strongly implies that the scumteam does have this knowledge).

So other than the fact that I may have initially interpreted Almost Chara's role PM incorrectly and your interpretation might be correct (you would know anyways since you know Mewtaph's role PM), do you have anything else to say on the matter? Because you seem insistent in pushing this as some sort of "slam dunk" case that proves that we are scum.

And by the way, since Pint seems insistent on pushing this narrative, we will just come out and say that we are one-shot BP just like Firbringer – so our BP works exactly the same way as his did.

- Volxen

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Post Post #3376  (isolation #407)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:15 am

From our Discord channel:

Volxen:

viewtopic.php?p=10683209#p10683209
Pint shades Jjh some more
viewtopic.php?p=10683916#p10683916
Jjh shades Pint some more (a lot of mutual shading/distancing between them)
viewtopic.php?p=10684623#p10684623
Creature had both Mewtaph and Jjh in his "can go" (be lynched) pile, so it makes sense that a Pint/Mewtaph/Jjh scumteam would view Creature as a good lynch.
viewtopic.php?p=10684624#p10684624
Creature called out {Michael Scott, Mewtaph, Jjh} as a scumteam, so he clearly had strong feelings about Mewtaph and Jjh being scum.
viewtopic.php?p=10689038#p10689038
Jjh shades both Mewtaph and Pint here -- calls the scumteam as Brass/Mewtaph/Pint
viewtopic.php?p=10689261#p10689261
Pint accuses us of trying to bus Jjh before he has even been flipped
viewtopic.php?p=10689266#p10689266
Pint admits he was on both the STW and creature mislynch wagon while shading us, and doesn't justify being on either wagon beyond saying "sorry" and that his biggest townreads are still alive. He still up to this point in the game never explained or justified why he was scumreading either STW or Creature or why he was on either of their wagons.

Volxen:

viewtopic.php?p=10689439#p10689439
viewtopic.php?p=10689444#p10689444
viewtopic.php?p=10689449#p10689449
viewtopic.php?p=10689455#p10689455
So on day one Mewtaph talks about "shredding his Taly townread", and then you call him out on why didn't he join the Creature wagon. He says he would have "hard defended Creature if Taly were still in that slot", and then you point out this is a direct contradiction of what he said previously on day one (that he was shredding his Taly townread).
He then uses this convienient excuse to justify 1) townreading Taly (and Creature by extension) and 2) Doing absolutely nothing on day two to stop the Creature wagon despite townreading Taly (I guess he took back his "shredding" of his Taly townread):

"Understand that read progression got my head nearly cut off so was pretty tentative to make any moves that would give scum any reason to throw shade on my slot.

The way that wagon formed wasn't good.

I can have thoughts out of thread, just because I only made a few posts on D2 doesn't mean that I ceased having thoughts during that time."

So basically he is claiming that on day two he reevaluated his read on Taly/Creature and came to the conclusion that the slot is town (so first he Townread Taly, then he shredded that townread, and apparently went back to townreading the slot again), but claims that he was having "thoughts out of the thread", and didn't want to share those thoughts or object to the Creature wagon because he took a lot of heat on day one and he didn't want to "make any moves that would give scum any reason to throw shade on my slot"
So basically, him not making any moves that could supposedly allow scum to shade him was more important than him stepping in to stop his townread (Creature) from getting lynched -- and this was after STW had already been mislynched on day one.
But he doesn't care, because him getting shaded was more of a concern to him than stopping a second mislynch.
A 100% scummy mindset.

Volxen:

viewtopic.php?p=10691082#p10691082
viewtopic.php?p=10691094#p10691094
This would also be a very easy fakeclaim from Mewtaph, because Alchemist had already claimed that he was a town Mutalisk that could move anywhere, but didn't because he thought it was pointless to do so.
So Mew knew Alch already claimed to have not have moved, and he knew from the playerlist that Alch was at the very bottom -- so it would just be easy for him to say that he "dragged Alch below" to explain why he was the second-to-last person at the bottom of the playerlist, right above Alch. Also notice how Mewtaph claims to be able to do everything Alchemist claimed to be able to do (move anywhere in the playerlist) plus more (drag a player with him) -- Alchemist's role seems more plausible here.


Volxen:

viewtopic.php?p=10693993#p10693993
Pint shades Jjh again, says we should lynch him rather than vig kill him. If he figures that Jjh is going down either way, this work out better for him because it gives him the opportunity to bus Jjh for towncredit. If Varsoon simply vig kills Jjh, Pint cannot benefit from it.
viewtopic.php?p=10694019#p10694019
Again Pint doubles down on this stance of suggesting lynching Jjh is better than having him vig killed.
viewtopic.php?p=10694029#p10694029
Pint tries to tie our alignment to Jjh's alignment, by suggesting that a Jjh scum flip proves that we are scum. So bussing Jjh is good for Pint because he 1) Seems Jjh as expendable anyways and 2) It helps him to try and scumpaint us
viewtopic.php?p=10694051#p10694051
Pint continues to push Jjh -- he clearly decided early on day 3 that he wanted to bus Jjh, but make it look like WE are the ones bussing Jjh rather than him.
viewtopic.php?p=10694076#p10694076
viewtopic.php?p=10694076#p10694076
So ProFlavor is supposedly one of Pint's top scumreads, but then he talks about our "next move "being a mislynch on ProFlavor. Why would he expect our "next move" to be to mislynch someone that he supposedly highly suspects of being scum?
viewtopic.php?p=10694404#p10694404
Pint places that vote which puts him as the third voter on the Jjh wagon. This is arguably the ideal place to be on the wagon -- right in the middle. Because Pint can try to frame us as driving the wagon to hard bus Jjh, and whoever the hammer voter was (in this case ProFlavor) ends up potentially looking bad -- like they are jumping on the wagon at the last moment to bus for towncredit.
I think this was Pint's long term plan, to scumpaint us as hard bussing Jjh because we were the ones to start the wagon -- and then he got really lucky when ProFlavor placed the hammer vote on Jjh, because it helped him to establish this narrative where one of {Michael Scott, ProFlavor} HAS to be one of Jjh's scumbuddies. So that's why Pint neither wanted to drive the wagon as the first voter nor be the hammer voter -- he purposefully wanted to be right smack in the middle of Jjh's wagon.
viewtopic.php?p=10694438#p10694438
Once again he tries to tie Mew's alignment to ProFlavor's alignment. First it was that they were both town on day one, but now he is entertaining that they could both be scum. But he is still maintaining that they are the same alignment. If he ever had to bus Mewtaph, or if Mewtaph simply got lynched, this would help him to setup a future ProFlavor mislynch via his line of reasoning that they have to be the same alignment.

- Volxen

Michael Scott
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Post Post #3381  (isolation #408)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:42 am

In post 3377, Mewtaph wrote:You're drawing the lines thick and clear.

VOTE: Michael Scott

This is how scum plays lylo. Low interaction. Pushing an agenda. Pushing easy options.

You need to go.


Everyone is universally aware that there is one scum in {Michael Scott, Pint} and one scum in {Alchemist, Mewtaph}.

So Alchemist is 100% confirmed scum from town!Mewtaph's point of view, but you vote for US? Town!Mewtaph would consider the possibility that we are simply wrong about you -- you HAVE, after all, done a ton of scummy/sketchy things throughout this entire game. Town!Mewtaph would consider the possibility of a Pint/Alchemist/Jjh scumteam and wouldn't vote for us.

You just hard claimed scum.

- Volxen

Michael Scott
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Post Post #3386  (isolation #409)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:46 am

I think Mew's vote on us is a scumclaim. I was just starting to get paranoid of Alchemist21's D2+ posts, and I suppose thanks to you for clearing that up.

As far as "pushing an agenda in LyLo" goes, that's a terrible, terrible accusation and I think town!you would've been competent enough to know that; you fail to realize that us pushing the confirmed scum from our perspective IS what we *have* to do as town. "No interaction" when we're producing pages of 1v1 content against confirmed scum to convince the others to vote there, is also a bad accusation. Pushing easy options? Well, sucks for you you made it so easy in the first place, and I don't even know who you're even referring to between you and Pintu, who, as I'll remind you again, is confirmed scum to us. As a matter of fact, "Low interaction" and "pushing an agenda" is exactly what *you* have been doing this LyLo, so you did present a convincing scumcase... for yourself.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #3387  (isolation #410)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:48 am

In post 3382, Mewtaph wrote:You seem to be disturbed by this development, as expected.

Nah, I'm relieved I don't have to be paranoid about Alchemist21 any more. We're just showing how what you did can't come from a town perspective.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #3391  (isolation #411)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:56 am

In post 3382, Mewtaph wrote:Yeah, I voted for you. You're play comes from scum. I'm going to test a theory. You seem to be disturbed by this development, as expected.


I would only be "disturbed" by it if the scumteam were Pint/Alchemist/Jjh, but your scumclaim proves that isn't the case.

We voted for Pint right off the bat in lylo because we had 100% confirmation that he was scum via ProFlavor's flip and the fact that a Mewtaph/Alchemist/Jjh scumteam was impossible (and the fact that Varsoon is confirmed town). You don't have that level of confirmation regarding our slot, because the only person who is 100% confirmed scum from town!Mewtaph's point of view is Alchemist.

If you were town you would literally be gamethrowing right now by voting for us instead of voting for the person who is 100% confirmed scum from your point of view (Alchemist), and I know that town!you wouldn't do that.

- Volxen

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Post Post #3392  (isolation #412)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:58 am

I dunno, seems pretty simple to me.

Players A,B,C: We 100% know A is scum, 90% on B.
We push A. Saying we aren't solving for B,C (Here you/Alch) is false, that's what made us release the transcripts - to show that we indeed were solving between you the entire time.

I mean of course we thought you might turn on us - I figure optimal scumplay for you in this situation would've been to bus Pintu (since he's losing the 1v1 anyway) and play upon my paranoia of Alchemist being scum; you turning on us in this fashion I didn't expect but makes life easier.

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Post Post #3393  (isolation #413)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:59 am

In post 3390, Mewtaph wrote:
In post 3386, Michael Scott wrote:"Low interaction" and "pushing an agenda" is exactly what *you* have been doing this LyLo, so you did present a convincing scumcase... for yourself.

It would make your life a lot easier if you could push this narrative, but you can't because you're the one pushing the agenda. You have to rely on transcripting the entire game to achieve what you want to reach with extreme conviction. When you shovel bullshit enough times, eventually it becomes true. That was your plan, wasn't it?


Mew: "Michael Scott is scum for pushing easy options"
Also Mew: "You could push this narrative a lot easier, but you can't because agenda"

:lol:

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Post Post #3396  (isolation #414)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:05 am

Now, let's talk "agenda".

We nail the scumteam, are winning in a 1v1 with Pintu, so Mewtaph - who was lurking in the sidelines while hoping we'd lose 1v1 pops back when Varsoon appears and sides with us. In desperation, he votes for us "to test a theory", in a last-ditch attempt to shift the vote to us somehow.

Pedit: Obviously we know town needs two correct lynches. We already had one 100% correct lynch (Pintu), we were deliberating on the other - but now we're sure. ;)

Also "noise" lol

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Post Post #3398  (isolation #415)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:16 am

In post 3394, Mewtaph wrote:You're failing to realise that two correct lynches on scum need to pass for town to win the game. This is just a straight fact that you've chosen to omit when constructing your perfect lylo narrative. There are two explanations for why you're playing this way as scum: you're hardbussing pinturicchio as scum/scum in which case the game is lost if I wait to act. Or the scenario is MS/Alchemist21 and I need to cover my backside before you win the game by default by outputting enough noise thread which you have shown you are more than capable of emitting extremely conclusion-focused "analysis" of previous pages.


It's already been proven that there are two scum ground units and one scum air unit, so don't be ridiculous in suggesting a MS/Pint/Jjh scumteam. And town!you realistically KNOWS that the scumteam is not MS/Pint/Jjh, because if we were scum together with Pint we could have VERY easily pushed for your mislynch today. Like Alchemist pointed out earlier (see: post ), there would be no reason for Pint and us to try and bus each other today only to push for your mislynch tomorrow, when we could just go ahead and push for your mislynch today.

The only possible scumteam combinations from town!Mewtaph's perspective are MS/Alchemist/Jjh or Pint/Alchemist/Jjh. That's a 100% FACT.


- Volxen

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Post Post #3404  (isolation #416)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:54 am

In post 3401, pinturicchio wrote:Oh look, no quickhammer on MS, that means confscum right?

Or... Mewtaph is scum.

3v2 or 2v1 we'd have to get you lynched as scum. Lynching a "partner" in Alch/Mew yesterday would only lend us more towncred, if we were scum. In this context, it's not risky. Besides, I've explained it was an optimal move as town already; if something's an optimal move as either alignment, then making that move itself can't constitute a case.

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Post Post #3415  (isolation #417)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:33 pm

In post 3407, Mewtaph wrote:I mean, he went offline so he pretty much gave up at this point.

Funny. :P I'm still here. I'll have to go to bed in a while, though.

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Post Post #3419  (isolation #418)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:44 pm

Aren't we confirmed scum to you or something?

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Post Post #3421  (isolation #419)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:45 pm

Yeah, I read "fake".

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Post Post #3422  (isolation #420)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:48 pm

I think Mew/Alch were online earlier when we had our vote on you, they could've hammered then.

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Post Post #3425  (isolation #421)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:59 pm

I recall Volxen voted again. We unvoted after Varsoon voted for you, after that. I'm referring to the time period before that.

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Post Post #3430  (isolation #422)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:07 pm

In post 3426, Varsoon wrote:Kinda wish ya'll would stop grandstanding and town can just sheep me and we can be done with the day
aight?

Waiting for Alch to appear. Should clear him when we don't get quickhammered; so once we lynch Pintu we lynch Mew no matter what in LyLo, no matter who goes.

Allowing Pintu to self-vote now would lead to you getting dragged to LyLo with un-conftown Alch.

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Post Post #3432  (isolation #423)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:09 pm

In post 3429, Mewtaph wrote:I wonder how long it'll take for the game to end.

Can we all ask for a fast night?

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Post Post #3437  (isolation #424)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:23 pm

Oh, well played.

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Post Post #3446  (isolation #425)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:45 pm

GG. My paranoia on Alch deepscum was correct! Sorry, town.

I thought my slot was obvtown.

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Post Post #3450  (isolation #426)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:47 pm

Mew disregarding everything and calling us scum for what I think were very bad reasons, made me lock him as scum. If he did correctly townread us, we *might* have considered Alch more seriously - I was just beginning to case him in my discord channel.

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Post Post #3455  (isolation #427)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:49 pm

Varsoon: you might not have been in the game much, but TRing us was a correct move so no big deal :D

I think if it weren't for your fakeclaim on STW scum in D1 we would've been in a better position though.

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Post Post #3461  (isolation #428)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:53 pm

Volx was 99%. I stated we're not confirmed there and open to re-evaluation. But yeah, we would've still lynched you in all probability so there's that.

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Post Post #3469  (isolation #429)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:03 pm

@Pint, Man did you purposefully LITTER your ISO with bad associatives with Mewtaph? Because you had so many mutual associatives with Mewtaph that suggested that you guys were partners that it's unreal.

- Volxen

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Post Post #3481  (isolation #430)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:13 pm

I think the ProFlavor read was a mistake too, but I suppose if that slot had a good thread presence we might not have lynched it so easily? Idk, man. Even Creature seemed to be playing lazy and we scumread them for it.

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Post Post #3498  (isolation #431)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:35 pm

In post 3494, u r a person 2 wrote:It's a team game, team loss. Any individual person could have identified and compellingly pushed alch and pint

It didn't happen.

A major reason I townread Pint was trusting your read after you died :P

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Post Post #3501  (isolation #432)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:37 pm

Also idk, would any of the dead people here correctly identified that Mew was town? I was 50-50 entering D5; but prolly would've conceded because AC townread Alch too.

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Post Post #3507  (isolation #433)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:40 pm

Many slots were dead, in a sense. A lot of town slots were kinda "out" of the game, too. Tbh Mew, what made you lurk D2?

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Post Post #3510  (isolation #434)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:42 pm

I think the dead were equally shocked at Mew/PF town haha

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Post Post #3522  (isolation #435)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:47 pm

@Mew: Instead of voting us which we saw as a scumclaim, simply talking to us would've made us nicer :P

@Krazy are you gonna run another game like this? Pre-in :3
Michael Scott again, Volx? :3

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Post Post #3526  (isolation #436)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:51 pm

Creature being apathetic is literally his scum meta though.
Can someone tell me why Creature was retrospectively a bad lynch?

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Post Post #3527  (isolation #437)  » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:53 pm

The spec was correct, haha. One scum in claimed air units.

I think you were a biiit rude D1, we thought that'd be a scumtell for you lol. I was getting ready to check there and confirm.

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