Starcraft Mafia: 2 -- Game Over!

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Post Post #41  (isolation #0)  » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:24 am

In post 10, Alchemist21 wrote:Wow that was a fast confirmation phase.

VOTE: Michael Scott because The Office is not a personality trait.

Found the Toby, Volxboi.
Also Alchemy is outdated.
Also wagons.

VOTE: Toby, I mean,
VOTE: Alchemist21

~Jimothy
(Auro)

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Post Post #88  (isolation #1)  » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:43 am

If both heads of a hydra craft their posts together, how'd they sign it as only one head?

~Jimothy and Date Mike
(Jk, just Jimothy)

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Post Post #89  (isolation #2)  » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:45 am

"Getting wagoned is scum-indicative because they got page-3 lynched as scum"
^Poor-ass logic here.
I thought it was a joke at first, but FlavorPro being serious about it is suspect.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #142  (isolation #3)  » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:39 pm

In post 137, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:Varsoon posted 2 links, one to Starcraft 1, where you encouraged everyone multiple times to “stretch their mind” and the second, to TAZ, where you didn’t do that even once.

This is sound.

My vote's on there in spirit as well.

Also Alchemist feels town.
UNVOTE:

~Jimothy

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Post Post #156  (isolation #4)  » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:59 pm

I like their defence on the meta scum-tell.

The mis-sign is pretty cheeky though.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #269  (isolation #5)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:23 am

In post 253, Mewtaph wrote:Okay, so you wanted to vote them in spirit but you couldn't. Did you have any other leads outside of Shoshin the worst that you would've liked to pursue at the time of making this post or was that the only slot you received scum vibes up to ?

Nah. The phrase-tell alone seemed a pretty good reason to place a spirit-vote there at the time.
Haven't really felt scum vibes from any other slot to be honest so far, my other head's leaning town on Varsoon though and I'm townreading Alchemist. I'll let him explain his reads.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #271  (isolation #6)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:25 am

Ooh ooh I forgot, I'm still kinda suspect at ProFlavor for their "Getting wagoned is scum-indicative for TW" push.

~James

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Post Post #273  (isolation #7)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:29 am

Townleaning Nancy's slot as well now. :P

~Jim

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Post Post #314  (isolation #8)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:51 am

In post 311, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:MS, is probably town as well - even if it is a sign of the apocalypse - that Auro is correctly reading me. He thought I might be scum in Excalibur.

Heya, I obv-towned you in Jester till you went all anti-strategy :P
And I townread you in Excalibur!

Also... "Aurocalypse"? Or is that too much :lol:

Also, you're not worried I'm trying to pocket you?

~James

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Post Post #315  (isolation #9)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:52 am

In post 282, Taly wrote:Could you explain the Alchemist townread?

Gut, felt he was advancing the game, blah.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #324  (isolation #10)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:11 am

In post 303, Varsoon wrote:lacks venom

Oooooooooh

The last time Varsoon said this was about my TvT push on DVa on Excalibur, where he was scum. ("Like you v auro feels venomless", "That's why it feels venomless")
Another time Varsoon said this was in viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75314&hilit=venom, where he was also scum. ("like it's lacking venom")
One more instance; viewtopic.php?f=84&t=38199&hilit=venom, also scum. ("lacked the typical venom")

There's a towngame where he says "I'm used to town Mac having a lot less venom", but contextually feels different.
There's one more where he says "you lost a good bit of the venom", which also doesn't exactly match directly calling something venomless.

Possible scumtell?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #326  (isolation #11)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:13 am

In post 314, Michael Scott wrote:Also, you're not worried I'm trying to pocket you?

Nancy's ignoring me, I see. :roll:

~Michael Scarn

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Post Post #333  (isolation #12)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:30 am

In post 332, Auro wrote:
In post 329, Varsoon wrote:Sorry to let ya down, Jimothy, but I use that phrase regardless of alignment. :P


Sure, 'soon, but I dug up all the instances and you've only ever directly called something "lacking venom"/"venomless" as scum :cool:
Correct me if I'm wrong, with proof. :P

~Detective Michael Scarn


Gahhh Hydra slip!
@Mod, delete plizz. I'm quoting it again here

~Sigh

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Post Post #337  (isolation #13)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:37 am

In post 335, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:I’m really digging that name. If we ever hydra together, I want that name. :lol:

Sure. :3

In post 335, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:I only tend to worry about that, when it either seems A) to come out of nowhere. B) makes no sense. C) reads disingenuous or fake somehow.

Generally if I’m suspicious of a tr on me, I usually have a damn good reason for it and am more often than not, correct.

I thought you'd take my townlean to be both A) and C), I haven't even explained why I townlean you though..?
In post 335, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:James? What happened to Jimothy? :lol:

It's a joke in The Office. ~00:50
Spoiler:


~Jim

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Post Post #340  (isolation #14)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:40 am

In post 334, Varsoon wrote:You looked at every single game I've ever played and searched the word 'venom'?

Stay in your Hydra, detective.

I just went to your profile, searched "Venom", and it showed me your entire usage of the word in all posts.
I went into each of the games it was mentioned in and checked your alignment.
search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&author_id=20928

~Detective Michael Scarn / Jimothy / Auro

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Post Post #346  (isolation #15)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:55 am

In post 343, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:Okay, why do you townlean us then?

Your reaction to someone SR-ing you. I imagine as scum you'd prolly be a bit more pacifying dealing with one.

I kinda found your reaction to my declared townlean a bit towny as well, gut.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #351  (isolation #16)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:00 am

In post 345, Varsoon wrote:It's cool that I've got 4 pages of posts using the word idiot.

:lol:

About the context thing, I mean using it as a direct address ("the case lacked venom", or "the push lacked venom"), independent of whether the case was on you or not. In Excalibur, you called my TvT venomless.

I'll do a deeper study into it later since I'm off my computer. :P

~Jimothy

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Post Post #352  (isolation #17)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:02 am

In post 350, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:I wish I had trusted my gut last game. Like I had scum!Ducky nailed dead to rights, then he suddenly pocketed me, and I forgot all about it.

I'm trying a different style this game and seeing where my gut can lead me, not just cold hard logic.

Let's see where it goes.

~Auro

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Post Post #354  (isolation #18)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:03 am

Yeah, let's keep this thread... Venomless, amirite?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #361  (isolation #19)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:53 am

In post 355, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:But it’s not easy when you suggest to someone that they replace out if they lack the time to make decent reads, then you get called “rude” for that. That slot fipped scum.


O.o Watcha talking about?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #373  (isolation #20)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:51 pm

URAP2's post above looks manufactured.
Current scumleans include FlavorPro, Varsoon and URAP2.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #377  (isolation #21)  » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:05 pm

Sure thing.

VOTE: URAP2

~Jimothy

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Post Post #452  (isolation #22)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:30 am

In post 451, Varsoon wrote:I also find it somewhat wild that no one had a single vocalized response to my fake triple-vote.

I just assumed it was fake.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #454  (isolation #23)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:31 am

In post 449, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:One of the dumbest mistakes scum makes in any game is pushing me. I always wind up making them regret it, one way or another.

Challenge accepted, whenever I roll scum against ya. ;)

I'm kinda happy with my URAP vote still, I still felt his posts were fake-ish upon skimming through them.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #455  (isolation #24)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:34 am

In post 382, u r a person 2 wrote:I don't like the two posts spent questioning proflavor about an obviously nonsense/joke scum read. @MS what's the deal w/ this?

I assumed it was a joke at first too, but pressing on it and providing "proof" indicated otherwise, and I could see it as scum encouraging a quicklynch off poor logic.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #456  (isolation #25)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:39 am

In post 448, Varsoon wrote:Not a fan of how people sloughed off the STW wagon.
I'm not entirely sold by the URAP2 wagon; feels too easy.


What's your scumcase on STW apart from their lack of signing?
Why does URAP2 feel too easy? Do you mean in the sense of them getting votes without much resistance?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #476  (isolation #26)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:52 am

In post 469, Varsoon wrote:For people who thought my triple-vote-hammer was fake; why did you stay silent about it?
I'm curious.


To see how others would react to it, *especially* STW. And then I forgot about it.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #483  (isolation #27)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:36 am

In post 481, Varsoon wrote:You'd think that if people saw it as fake they'd either
1. Decry it as such
2. Figure it for a gambit and play into it in order to see the results on people it did fool

Neither happened, which is curious to me.
Dunno if it's all that fruitful of a line of inquiry, though. :/


Decrying it would partially negate the effect it could have on the person you triple voted.
"Playing into it" one of the better ways of doing this is to not comment on it at all IMO.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #485  (isolation #28)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:43 am

Also what's up with solo players signing their posts but hydras refusing to. :lol:

~You-know-who

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Post Post #490  (isolation #29)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:57 am

In post 488, pinturicchio wrote:Just got back into the game and saw this, what do you mean?

Taly and Varsoon signing their posts redundantly, while the STW hydra refuses to do so.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #494  (isolation #30)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:23 am

In post 491, pinturicchio wrote:r/woosh.

Oh crap, forgot you were a solo player for a moment :lol:

~James

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Post Post #497  (isolation #31)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:36 am

In post 495, Alchemist21 wrote:That’s a pretty far stretch. Why didn’t any Town players respond to it either? The fact that nobody responded to it makes the lack of response NAI and I don’t know why you’re hung up on this.

He's not singling out any player or saying that the lack of response is AI, though.
Town and scum needn't necessarily react the same way to the triple vote, and he's exploring possible motivations behind why scum, in particular, would ignore it -- especially in the lens of Shoshin being scum. While it is stretched and not really convincing, it's not invalid analysis.

~Meh

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Post Post #513  (isolation #32)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:29 pm

In post 501, Shoshin the worst wrote:The fact that we're playing our hydra in this way is actually a town tell for us because if we had received a scum PM we would have used every scummy tool at our disposal, including extensive hydra dissonance, cluttering the thread with disorganized back-and-forth arguments with each other that served no purpose other than drowning out meaningful posting, as well as other scummy tactics that hydra mechanics make possible. As you should know by now, neither of us would ever limit ourselves in this way as scum. Especially me (Shoshin). I don't have a hydra meta so limiting myself like this in my first game as a hydra isn't something I'd do as scum.

I'm disliking this. I could argue that not signing with the intention of "synchronisation" can also be beneficial to scum, allowing you to fudge tone, delay responses, and make it difficult to carry a conversation with one of your heads.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #516  (isolation #33)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:48 pm

Vars, have you formed a read on me yet?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #520  (isolation #34)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:52 pm

Your first sentence implies we're a TR, "gravy" implies mixed feelings though, clarify for me?

~Blah

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Post Post #521  (isolation #35)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:54 pm

Oh nevermind.

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Post Post #528  (isolation #36)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:25 pm

In post 448, Varsoon wrote:I'm not entirely sold by the URAP2 wagon; feels too easy.

You've still not explained this, Varsoon.
Any thoughts on URAP's play?
I'm feeling more (gut) confident with my read there the more he posts~

~The Gargoyle King

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Post Post #529  (isolation #37)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:29 pm

In post 372, u r a person 2 wrote:my town leans right now are
STW -tone,play I think TW is trying to use his experience modding and playing with me to read me and that's why he's asking me for my thoughts about specific posts.

I found this in your ISO, your progression from this to your latest read there seems highly unnatural.
Did you just notice that you were inferring who was authoring them? You had nothing to say when their (lack of) signing was a talking point of the game?

~Detective Michael Scarn

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Post Post #536  (isolation #38)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:45 pm

In post 534, Auro wrote:His read progression on STW:
Spoiler:
In post 45, u r a person 2 wrote:is this game UMS or ladder?

VOTE: shoshin the worst
there are no ducks in starcraft

In post 143, u r a person 2 wrote:This signing posts thing and follow up posts are the scummiest posts of the thread. Why does town you not just go okok jeez and start signing?

In post 185, u r a person 2 wrote:but i don't want this lynch anymore right now

I think I'll join you on Taly.

In post 372, u r a person 2 wrote:my town leans right now are
STW -tone,play I think TW is trying to use his experience modding and playing with me to read me and that's why he's asking me for my thoughts about specific posts.

In post 420, u r a person 2 wrote:It's pretty sneaky to then turn around and read my response to that thought experiment as if I claimed those thoughts were engraved on stone slabs from god.

In post 425, u r a person 2 wrote:I'm just saying treat my answer in the same good faith, charitable manner that I acted in when responding to it.

In post 522, u r a person 2 wrote:@stw I thought you were done with this synchronized hydra nonsense but in retrospect you were just not signing and I was just inferring who was authoring the posts.

This is still scummy

Will have to take a closer look at this, but it is pinging me.

~Detective Michael Scarn


Damnit with my hydra slips. Sorry y'all. Quoted again.

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Post Post #545  (isolation #39)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:38 pm

In post 541, Shoshin the worst wrote:We also declared we would be exiting the thread at the end of our conversation which would be completely ridiculous for scum to do if they intended to disappear and lurk out the pressure while an aggressive towny was tunnelling them.

WIFOM.

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Post Post #548  (isolation #40)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:40 pm

In post 544, Shoshin the worst wrote:We've definitely towntold a few times in our iso. You've found nothing AT ALL which you think is towny and you're 80% sure we're scum who's just decided to put our pants on our head after rolling SCM1 and play like messy newbscum?

C'mon, if you're aware of said towntells, it's clearly in your capability to make them as scum, too. More WIFOM.

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Post Post #550  (isolation #41)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:44 pm

In post 528, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 448, Varsoon wrote:I'm not entirely sold by the URAP2 wagon; feels too easy.

You've still not explained this, Varsoon.
Any thoughts on URAP's play?
I'm feeling more (gut) confident with my read there the more he posts~

@Varsoon

~Jimothy

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Post Post #553  (isolation #42)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:47 pm

In post 549, Shoshin the worst wrote:Michael is probably teetering on dropping a tier from this conversation. But I'm not sure on this yet


@Nancy: Do you really buy "I wouldn't do that as scum, that's ridiculous!" And "I've towntold multiple times, how come you're not townreading me" arguments?

~Jim

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Post Post #563  (isolation #43)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:55 pm

Buzzwords are also great when they capture the essence of an argument, removing the need to explain it. I don't think the accusation I made needed much elaboration, but here's my rebuttal to your response anyway.

Sure, going "Oh that was Towny where did that come from?" Is a legitimate feeling to have, but doesn't pair off with "I towntold a bunch of times" -- the latter portrays an awareness to the tells. I don't trust that it's beyond your capability to know how town!you would behave and then behave in a similar fashion. Also, you're exaggerating how ridiculous it is to make those moves as scum - for example, I've already pointed out benefits to non-signing as scum.

~J

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Post Post #572  (isolation #44)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:03 pm

Eh, I "cut the buzzwords" and explained.
Feel free to respond to that part, I'm not interested in debating the merits of using buzzwords. (Oh, and "buzzword" is a buzzword)

~J

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Post Post #574  (isolation #45)  » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:04 pm

In post 571, Almost Chara wrote:based on Nico's meta, i'm townleaning her slot for now. slightly.
~Chara

You're really townleaning a HARD lurker slot... For meta reasons?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #749  (isolation #46)  » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:19 am

Sorry if my questuon's too Newb, but:
Does scum!Vars claim Vig in a setup where we know there's a town aligned vig who'd obviously just shoot him at night?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #754  (isolation #47)  » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:37 am

In post 751, Almost Chara wrote:@Michael Scott: You answered your own question. Any experienced player wouldn't claim Vig knowing there IS a Vig that would shoot them, except if they were @L-1 maybe (and it still would have been a bad move), and Varsoon wasn't even under pressure.

I knew the answer to it, was just confirming. Thanks!

~Jim

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Post Post #785  (isolation #48)  » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:18 am

In post 784, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:
In post 574, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 571, Almost Chara wrote:based on Nico's meta, i'm townleaning her slot for now. slightly.
~Chara

You're really townleaning a HARD lurker slot... For meta reasons?

~Jimothy


What is remotely townie about Nico’s opening post?

Absolutely nothing, I'm surprised at the "meta townleans" there and hence a bit suspect as well. Especially when the slot has a grand total of 3 posts (or had, at the time of those reads).

~Jimothy

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Post Post #788  (isolation #49)  » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:24 am

I'm feeling less confident on my URAP2 read right now, I'm up for a wagon on Nicorobin. It does look like unhappiness with her role PM, and the "meta" townleans there I find stupid -- more like made-up reasons not to vote there, so I think it's a good wagon.

VOTE: Nicorobin


~Jimothy

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Post Post #795  (isolation #50)  » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:42 am

In post 793, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:I don’t like the whole, this should confitown me thing. Scum!Shoshin did that last game wrt to Irrelephant11 kill. Nothing confirms ANYONE as town here, pre-flip.

We know there's a town-vig in the game, so if it's not Varsoon they simply kill him at night.

May as well treat that slot as conftown today, and not lynch it.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #801  (isolation #51)  » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:49 am

In post 798, Shoshin the worst wrote:because Nancy mislynched scum

Nancy, let's MISLYNCH scum!

~Jimothy

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Post Post #821  (isolation #52)  » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:42 am

Need to check if she used that phrase in SCM1 but not in her towngames. :P

~Jimothy

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Post Post #962  (isolation #53)  » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:55 pm

In post 950, Tibor and Lumia wrote:
In post 491, pinturicchio wrote:
In post 490, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 488, pinturicchio wrote:Just got back into the game and saw this, what do you mean?

Taly and Varsoon signing their posts redundantly, while the STW hydra refuses to do so.

~Jimothy

r/woosh.

-Turicchio.

It’s whoooosh. With 4 o’s. Also I might post this to r/ihavereddit, though I’d prolly wait til the game ends
-dlaremE ammaG

It's actually woooosh, no 'h'. :P

~Jim

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Post Post #1190  (isolation #54)  » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:15 am

I'm comfortable with my vote on Nico. I think a scum flip there would be useful anyway, given we have associatives already WRT who's trying to lead away from her lynch, and such.

Is there anyone convincingly scum at this point? I'm not seeing scum!STW how Varsoon is.

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Post Post #1236  (isolation #55)  » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:23 pm

In post 588, Shoshin the worst wrote:
In post 585, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 577, Shoshin the worst wrote:I don't understand why you think there's no town motivation in our slot pushing/scumreading you. It's pretty simple. We scumread you.
The fact you can't engage with me about why we shouldn't scumread you or should townread you had me baffled.


I believe that there can be a town motivation for scumreading me. I didn't say town!you town!reads me 100%

We can post game why I'm not into reading myself in the thread. It basically boils down to the wifom/not wifom discussion you're in the middle of and my having no interest in having those types of discussions

The problem we're having here is that you kicked off this rabbit hole discussion by voting us because you believe town!tw should be townreading you, plus the hydra dynamic which for the umpteenth time should not be deemed alignment indicative.

I'm trying to parse how you came to the conclusion that it's scum indicative for us to be scumreading you and pushing you just because the worst and you have history. I still do not understand your rationale here.

If you think TW should >rand be townreading you, we definitely need a better metric against which to measure your towntells, because it means what we are doing at the moment is on the wrong track.

This conversation is pretty important. If you do need to back out of it for holistic playstyle/meta reasons we understand but also please try to see that from our perspective, that leaves you joining out wagon late into its formation for almost exactly no reason...


In post 591, pinturicchio wrote:
In post 577, Shoshin the worst wrote:I could give it a go with pintu but I'm not sure it'd get me anywhere.

I'm pocketed without the need of you doing anything <3

@Varsoon, I have a towntell on the duck, on the same line of your "stretch your minds" of Shoshin. I've seen the duck using the "holistical reads" as town before and can't recall him doing it as scum.

By the way @duck, why scumreading us? Felt like it came out of nowhere.

-Pin


TW actually used the phrase “holistic playstyle/meta reasons” here, not “holistical reads”. I looked into this, and TW using phrases like “holistic meta” or “holistic read” is definitely not a towntell for him. In fact, he used the phrase “holistic meta” in the first Starcraft game (as scum) four different times. I searched TW’s posts for the phrases “holistic meta”, “holistic read”, “holistic play”, and “holistic playstyle” as this is what I found:

TW has used the phrase “holistic meta” four times in the first Starcraft game as scum (link: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970):

Link to the first post where he used “holistic meta”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10584202&hilit=+holistic+meta#p10584202

In post 517, the worst wrote:
In post 278, Varsoon wrote:P-EDIT:

Everything above the pedit is cringe
Everything below the pedit is locktown-irl

Varsoon I think you're really caught up on like holistic meta stuff and I'm like... not all that interested in it.... do you think the reads have been bad? maliciously intended? which ones? why?


Link to the second post where he used “holistic meta”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10595081&hilit=+holistic+meta#p10595081

In post 1594, the worst wrote:But I'm also wary of the fact I'm fucking easily triggered by people using bullshit holistic meta tells so I might be seeing red


Link to the third post where he used “holistic meta”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10595151&hilit=+holistic+meta#p10595151

In post 1638, the worst wrote:since no one is seeing what I'm seeing:
Mewtaph has asked Xtoxm the same question a lot of us have already asked him (which townreads gave him pause)

I think he's already answered that question really well, and I think his answer was town indicative. Mewtaph has ignored his reads and later contribution and comments about playstyle anxiety leading him to freak out about the early townreads. Follow his reads and it's probably pretty clear that he had his own takes, but the Big Bad Townblock was too much for him to like.

Mewtaph thinks he's a mislynch / has not noticed that Xtoxm's initial freak-out about the townreadspam actually kinda checks out, so shades him for not responding and votes him over ellitell

I ask Mewtaph to back the ellitell up with an actual scumcase. He cites the very early part of Xtoxm's contributions. I ask him to go back to his later iso and show me which of Xtoxm's posts are making him still feel that way

Nancy randomly charge-tackles me to the ground and Mewtaph stands there watching us and acting all surprised that I asked him to back up this read.

Like idfk he hasn't warlocked Nancy, she did it of her own volition but I'm fucking done if I'm being shaded for asking someone who's done sweet fuck all to back up a horseshit holistic meta tell with an actual scumcase on a slot I'm townreading


Link to the fourth post where he used “holistic meta”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10615025&hilit=+holistic+meta#p10615025

In post 2977, the worst wrote:
In post 2975, Xtoxm wrote:I have to be able to trust that townies won't make reckless antitown plays like that.

You for real? I think Perf is scum but his hammer is the most defensible part of his ISO. The hell else was he meant to do with like 6 hours remaining? NM was clearly a very viable lynch candidate and imo if he was going to claim at all he would have already done it.

I'm kinda flashing back to something someone said to me pretty recently but if scum always made reckless antitown moves and town never did mafia would be like.. obscenely easier than it is. do you have reasoning other than an holistic meta dislike of hammers on unclaimed slots?



TW used the phrases “holistic meta” and “holistic gamestate read” one time each in Newbie 1866 as town (link: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76047)

Link to the post where he used “holistic meta”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76047&p=10178131&hilit=+holistic+meta#p10178131

Link to the post where he used “holistic gamestate read”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76047&p=10201152&hilit=+holistic+read#p10201152


TW used the phrase “holistic readthrough” one time In Newbie 1870 as town (link: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76282)

Link to the post where he used “holistic readthrough”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76282&p=10264643&hilit=+holistic+read#p10264643


TW used the phrase “holistic read” one time in Open 737 as town (link: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77146)

Link to the post where he used “holistic read”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77146&p=10453007&hilit=+holistic+read#p10453007

No results came up for “holistic play” or “holistic playstyle” when searching TW’s posts.

Granted, TW has used phrases like “holistic read” or something along those lines as town, but in this game the exact phrase he used in post was “holistic playstyle/meta reasons”, and he has used “holistic meta” four times as much as scum than he has as town. In any case, TW frequently uses the word “holistic” in general (there are 41 results for just the word “holistic” when searching TW’s posts), so at best him using the phrase “holistic playstyle/meta reasons” is NAI for him. So @Pinturicchio, why were you so quick to label this as a “towntell” for TW when it clearly isn’t?

And @The Worst, what are your thoughts on Pinturicchio incorrectly applying this as a “towntell” for your slot?

- Date Mike (Volxen)

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Post Post #1258  (isolation #56)  » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:35 am

@Mewtaph: Alchemist rebutted your attack on him, you left it at that though - why?
Rationale for STW, Almost Chara?
Why a policy lynch on Nancy?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1267  (isolation #57)  » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:50 am

@Mew
Your responding to the hard SR would be to convince the rest of us to sheep you on your SR. Disagree?

"It's how scum would respond" isn't a rebuttal.

Quote where Nancy's been deflecting votes, and detail how it's destructive?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1269  (isolation #58)  » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:52 am

In post 1263, ProFlavor wrote:Yo, Auro, I got a rundown of the game from my buddy, but can I see your perspective?

3 biggest things this game to look out for during my catchup, what are they?

Yo Flavor,

I'm having a bit of a hard time following the game myself.
I'll need to do a proper catchup too, right now I'm focusing on current interactions.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1500  (isolation #59)  » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:08 am

ATM I'm relating to Shoshin's side in the exchange.

Flavor Leaf, you talked about wagon compositions on Mew/STW a lot - were you basing reads on them off the wagons, or were you using your reads on them to analyze the wagons?

Meanwhile I'll actually read up the exchange properly

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1501  (isolation #60)  » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:10 am

In post 1352, Mewtaph wrote:Michael Scott - Kind of scummy? I just might not like meta arguments but the vote on NicoRobin and "a scum flip would be helpful there anyway" kind of bothered me

Yeah, except we weren't voting NicoRobin because of meta? Voted there because I didn't scumread anyone, and "a scum flip would be helpful" wasn't a justification for the vote - it was a rebuttal to someone who argued that a flip there's useful.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1502  (isolation #61)  » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:31 am

In post 1300, Mewtaph wrote:I don't want to sort to your slot at all because I haven't found a reason to town read you guys. So I really am just going to duck out of the thread - if you so wish you can mull it over with other players like you are already doing but I don't want a part of this not right now.

I don't like it when people go "I'm not going to interact with you because I don't townread you", this is scummy.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1605  (isolation #62)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:37 am

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

I don't think his OMGUS is town-indicative, seems like it's well within his scumrange. His vote on STW is opportunistic.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1608  (isolation #63)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:00 am

I'm not voting STW, I think they're town.

Mewtaph's the next biggest wagon with 3 votes according to the quoted VC, I'm not sure about them - I think town more than scum though, and that slot should be readable later.

Kokichi's slot has been quite useless, and there's NO reason to townread them. We're getting a small deadline extension, I'd like everyone to vote here.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1609  (isolation #64)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:03 am

In post 1607, Tibor and Lumia wrote:I am going to formally say these votes or lack thereof are all bad with less than 24 hours left.

This is a formal statement of badness.

Your scumcase on Mewtaph?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1611  (isolation #65)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:30 am

Vars! Opinions on Kokichi Oma?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1612  (isolation #66)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:32 am

In post 693, Varsoon wrote:No, because I'm the town Vig and I don't believe this game has BOTH a confirmable town role by public design in the vigilante and ALSO an IC.
I think it's more likely that Kokichi is either trolling or has a role he feels will hard-confirm him as town.
Regardless, given how Kokichi's claim played out in Starcraft Mafia 1, I find it obscene how STW is pushing there, especially because from their PoV they admit to thinking I'm not the vig, so they are full aware that Kokichi could be softing he's the vig, which lines up with the IC claim.

1. If you're the town vig and think Kokichi's softclaiming Vig, that should make him a good lynch for you, yes?
2. How much do you think Kokichi lies WRT these things? Does he never lie about this sorta stuff as town?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1616  (isolation #67)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:06 am

In post 1615, Auro wrote:
In post 1613, Varsoon wrote:My opinion is that the slot sorts itself, like it always has when he's claimed IC.

1. Nope, read the quote above. I believe he's got a role that he feels will hard-confirm him as town.
2. He lies about these things most of the time, but the lies are more misdirects than outright lies.


1. I don't get it - you said you *don't* believe the setup would have both a hard-confirmable town and also a vig. So you don't think both vig and IC would exist, but vig and "role that can hard-confirm someone as town" is possible? I think I'm misinterpreting your thought process here, clarify?
2. I still think those "misdirects" are anti-town. Apparently the last time he claimed IC he didn't even mod-confirm it, which is pretty dangerous - I think as long as he's not straightforward with it there's no reason to trust him. I'll check how often he claims IC right off in his scumgames.

If he has a propensity to much around and "misdirect" as town, this means he can retract it later and wave off scumreads when his being IC is disproved, so that factors into why I wouldn't refrain from lynching him in this case, too.



Ugh! Really sorry. Requoted.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1618  (isolation #68)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:14 am

Exactly, his claim shouldn't even factor in to a read on him is my point here.
I think even if his beliefs turn out to be BS, he'll be able to fight off the lynch since he does this as town, too.
I thought you were hesitant to lynch him because of his IC claim -- so do we agree that's a non-factor?

What do you make of his play apart from the IC claim here?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1619  (isolation #69)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:17 am

I find his quality of play rather poor - the lack of response to Chara's rebuttal on the whole "town Chara waits on me" argument is concerning. Use of meta on Chara when she misread him as either alignment recently is concerning.

The vote on Shoshin is primarily OMGUS - "Horrible vote and reasoning and thought process" without any explanation, is bad.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1623  (isolation #70)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:31 am

@Profii

I don't really have a *solid* read on STW, gut-town but that doesn't matter, I'm not gonna bother trying to towncase them when I'm focused on trying to get a better lynch.

My point is that I don't want them *lynched* today.

You're not accounting for the possibility that the wagon's not growing because the cases are bad. Your slot's case on them borders on some sorta weird circular logic, and Varsoon's case wasn't convincing either.

Contrast with the case on Kokichi Oma, which isn't empty, and pretty good. Why do you think Kokichi is town? "He is mislynch bait, therefore shouldn't be lynched" is bad logic.

If you want me to explain any part of this in detail, ask away. I'm ready to vote them if you can convince me their slot is scummy. Shoot.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1624  (isolation #71)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:43 am

Your case, as I see from your ISO, with my rebuttals:

Spoiler:
In post 1388, ProFlavor wrote:
In post 1378, Shoshin the worst wrote:VOTE: Kokichi
If this greens I'll reconsider AC
Otherwise I'm treating them as basically hard town


This looks like a self preservation move to try to shift the momentum off of them onto Kokichi.

Umm, what would you expect town!STW to do? They were also parrying attacks on them, it's reasonable to also scumhunt.
In post 1389, ProFlavor wrote:Kokichi is also mislynch bait this early in the game. Shoshin is super scum. :lol:

~Leaf

I disagree that going after "ML bait" is scummy, especially when you're townreading a bunch of people and this is PoE - are you arguing that they should have rather voted a townread than Kokichi?
In post 1390, ProFlavor wrote:
In post 1378, Shoshin the worst wrote:VOTE: Kokichi
If this greens I'll reconsider AC
Otherwise I'm treating them as basically hard town


This also sets up a mislynch path and general plan of action.

Again, reasonable of STW - if Kokichi's green, he was honest about Chara's read of him, and it's fine that they'd reconsider. You could shade ANY statement that goes "If X flips green I'll reconsider Y" the same way, it's empty.
In post 1392, ProFlavor wrote:The fact that Varsoon, Mewtaph, and I are the three on Shoshin right now shows me that this is more than likely a scum slot.

Varsoon is hard town here. I’ve recently gotten to witness directly both townVarsoon and scumVarsoon, and really I’ve known Varsoon for like 4 and a half years now, so I’m pretty happy with my read there.

Mewtaph is town for the wagon composition. Mustang and Nancy pushing onto a townie the way they did makes total sense, and then people, and scumShoshin, decide to jump on to Mewtaph.

This also semi incriminates Jjh slot, but I’ll let them catchup first.

I realize my slot will probably be tried to use as a counterwagon option after pushing Shoshone like this, so unless you wanna try to 1v1 me and out explain the damn awful play it would have been to let Mewtaph live in this situation as scum...well, go for it. I could have just kept not playing the game and allowing Profii to play in that situation. Mewtaph likely would have been killed.

So there, Mewtaph and I would have to be scum together AND you’d have to think I would Super obviously protect them in this position AND I would hard town read Varsoon, a solid player who I know would very much end up tunneling me if he thinks I’m scum.

Long story short, Only town are on the Shoshin wagon right now. Bet.

You're townreading two others on the wagon, and hence Shoshin's scum to you - not convincing at all when a large number of us aren't sold on Mewtaph being town yet, and your slot too.
"Shoshin's scum because Varsoon/Mewtaph are town"
"Mewtaph's town because scum!Shoshin opportunistically jumped onto the wagon"


I've explained why I think the case is empty - feel free to convince me otherwise.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1625  (isolation #72)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:57 am

My rebuttal of Varsoon's case.
Spoiler:
In post 461, Varsoon wrote:@Michael Slott: The appeals they made while I was pushing them were not the kind of appeals that I associate with town.
The whole 'stretch your mind' appeal is one that I've only seen them make as scum.
When confronted with this piece of meta that wasn't even all that damning, their defense was to handwave that the hydra has no meta, which isn't really an argument that I'd see either Shoshin or TW making, as town, when confronted this way.
They produced a Taly scumread when under pressure, but when asked to elaborate on that scumread, they failed to be able to do so and instead defaulted to a position that I hard scumread--that they have some sort of info/tell that they can't share and are waiting to reveal. This is a scum position because they can just either; 1. Come up with a convenient lie later, once they've had time to think on it and Taly has more content or 2. They can just never reveal it if people forget about it.
The way they handled my pressure in regards to the Taly scumread isn't forthright as Shoshin usually is as town and reads as scummy to me.
Since then, they've largely done nothing of note and seem to have basically taken my pressure on them as an excuse to duck out for a 'cooling off' period where they can let suspicion on them subside/die entirely. Town doesn't do this, in my experience.
Their resistance re:signing isn't something that I townread.
How they handled the signing thing isn't something I see coming from a town mindset, either. Obviously, there's the WIFOM that stubborn town just wouldn't concede to signing or that scum wouldn't back down to try to seem like stubborn town or that backing down would be survivalist from a scum PoV but honestly

I just don't like it.

Couple that with people finding a lot of quick reasons to wagon someone who had, up to that point, phoned in pretty easy-to-attack play and the general way the wagon was abandoned and I can come to one of two conclusions:

1. STW slot is scum.
2. If not, STW slot isn't playing in a pro-town manner and had scum on their wagon.

Out of all of the players in the game, STW has the most amount of content that I scumread, so I'll be keeping my vote there and still working for a lynch there. The natural discrediting tactic that you're going to see happen is that scum will try to call this a tunnel, despite me being engaged with other slots, reading the game, and trying to figure it out beyond STW. They'll try to act like having a scumread you want to get lynched is a tunnel, somehow, and therefore unlikely to produce a flip on scum; it's important that you know this is absolutely a discrediting tactic and dismiss it as such.

1. "Stretch Your Mind" is a poor "scum-tell", and I recall you even saying you were goofing around about it earlier. Their "we have no meta" is icky, but the way I interpreted it is that they don't have a meta as a cohesive single-unit (not either head individually) and that wasn't even their only defense against the presented scum-tell, so gives me some cherry-picking feels.
2. WRT the Taly thing, I went back and read it - You're saying that only scum would hold a belief that they'd hold back on explaining a read to see if it solidifies based on certain behaviours. While I can see the scum motivation for it, it definitely is valid as a scumhunting method - so I argue there's town motivation here too. Even "cooling off" - it could simply come from frustrated!them.
3. The not-signing thing isn't really a reason to scumread them, I believe. You do seem to agree on this.
4. About your prediction of them calling it a tunnel - I don't see why only scum would call it a tunnel, unless you have evidence they were just doing that without rebutting attacks and scumhunting elsewhere, this shouldn't lend them any scum equity.
5. Wagon composition - Your conclusions are pretty obvious, of course FYPOV they're scum or "not pro-town" town, there's no evidence that the former's more probable.
6. You also accuse them of wanting to lynch Kokichi later - given Kokichi's meta and his play, I think it's fine that they wanted to.


I'm not townreading them yet, but I'm pretty sure they're a bad lynch.

~J

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Post Post #1628  (isolation #73)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:07 am

In post 1626, Varsoon wrote:Koki and Mewtaph? Low info, shit lynches, trash flips, probably not worth.

I disagree with the "low info" part, I see it as beneficial to town to remove such a player (who IMO has low-quality play, and is likely a liability to town), and obviously a scum-flip there would be useful when you consider who's voting him and who's reluctant. I don't see how a town-flip on Kokichi is any less useful than a town-flip on, say, STW?

What would a townflip on STW tell you?
What would a townflip on Kokichi Oma tell you?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1629  (isolation #74)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:09 am

I'll be looking at associations TO Kokichi, not associations FROM Kokichi.
A scumflip there would make STW clearly town in my eyes.
Then I'd start looking at how people interacted with his slot OR what they said about it, at various points in D1 - is that not useful in your view?

~J

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Post Post #1632  (isolation #75)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:21 am

I'm not sold on the idea that a "difficult townflip" gives any great info. You've already said they're not playing pro-town if town, so that clearly means you're not going to take their own reads as useful information. The "useful information" then comes from interactions towards them, as in who jumped onto the wagon and who didn't - and even here there's too little to really go off of, and not *significantly* greater than a wagon like Kokichi's.

Even then, I'm highly confident STW is a "better" town player than "Kokichi", and the disadvantage of losing town!STW is a lot more than losing town!Kokichi.

Even then, I've debated that the slot holds any significant scum equity. Just because someone's interacted a lot doesn't mean they're a good lynch.

I recall, from a really old game you had an argument with Thor665 about almost exactly this - removing an "easy" player versus a difficult one, what was the conclusion you reached in that discussion?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1635  (isolation #76)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:05 am

Well, I actually don't share your opinion that they've been anti-town - I responded to your case, too, at the beginning of this page.
I would say that a premature shot on them was bad. I don't think they're a liability to town, especially compared to a slot like Kokichi.

IMO a lurker slot that's also not really contributing -- if Kokichi's not lynched, that would be a *great* candidate, and solve the "bad info flip" problem too.

Between STW and Mewtaph, I get the feeling both could be town here - if one of them was scum, given the current unpredictability in who's getting lynched I'd expect scum to try and aggressively push the other. I dunno who I'd choose if it came down to a compromise between them, at the moment I'm leaning Mewtaph but I have to look closer there - but I will vote for either if we're too close to the deadline and there's no chance of a wagon on someone else.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1637  (isolation #77)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:10 am

I'm ready to vote there if we don't get a wagon going, and there's a convincing enough scumcase on them.
We could talk about your case and my rebuttal of it, perhaps?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1640  (isolation #78)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:18 am

@Vars, I'm all ears, we can talk about the specifics of it rather than an overall judgement. What are the problems with ?
Remember I'm not saying I hard townread them - I just think the cases on them are empty, and that they are a bad lynch.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1643  (isolation #79)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:38 am

You have the claimed vig refusing to shoot Kokichi - as "ML bait" that would affect the gamestate negatively in later days as compared to now :$

It appalls me that I could play badly enough to be called "Easy Mislynch Bait" and be an actual liability to town, and avoid getting lynched and killed. :$

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1644  (isolation #80)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:38 am

In post 1642, Kokichi Oma wrote:Why do people vote people who havent played the game. Pin is a mislynch prob. Lynch shoshin

Why should we lynch Shoshin?

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Post Post #1645  (isolation #81)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:40 am

Also I do remember being at the top of the playerlist long ago (I have bad memory too though), and the mod edited it 22 times total, is something going on there?

~J

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Post Post #1649  (isolation #82)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:46 am

In post 1646, Almost Chara wrote:the mod edited it twice, not 2 times.

the playerlist order as it pertains to the game is further down. as far as i can remember you've always been at the top with Varsoon at the bottom.
~Chara

No, it says 22 times. Post #0.
"Last edited by Krazy on Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:38 am, edited 22 times in total."

~J

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Post Post #1650  (isolation #83)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:49 am

In post 5, Krazy wrote:1. Michael Scott (Auro + Volxen Hydra)
2. Shoshin the worst (the worst + Shoshin hydra)
3. Mewtaph
4. u r a person 2
5. AlmostChara (Almost50 + Chara Hydra)
6. Mephistophanes 39 (Nancy Drew 39 and Aristophanes hydra)
7. pinturucchio
8. nicorobin
9. ProFlavor (Flavor Leaf and profii hydra)
10. Kokichi Oma
11. Tibor and Lumia (brassherald and Gamma Emerald hydra)
12. alchemist21
13. Taly
14. Varsoon

In post 0, Krazy wrote:1. Shoshin the worst (the worst + Shoshin hydra)
2. Mephistophanes 39 (Nancy Drew 39 and Aristophanes hydra)
3. Varsoon
4. Almost Chara (Almost50 + Chara Hydra)
5. Michael Scott (Auro + Volxen Hydra)
6. Kokichi Oma
7. Tibor and Lumia (brassherald and Gamma Emerald hydra)
8. jjh927 nicorobin
9. Mewtaph
10. alchemist21
11. ProFlavor (Flavor Leaf and profii hydra)
12. u r a person 2
13. pinturicchio
14. Taly


Original and latest positions. I think each of the 20-ish times was a change in positions. We need to observe what causes a change there. Votes? Hmm.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1653  (isolation #84)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:55 am

Ah, okay. The "22 edits" got me overthinking. Nevermind, then.

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Post Post #1655  (isolation #85)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:58 am

No no, the first post was the sign-ups one, all edits were made pre Jan-06 (I misread as Jan 16), the list was randomized to output the starting list in #5.
People were correctly referring to #5.

I'm dumb too :lol:

~J

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Post Post #1664  (isolation #86)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:28 pm

In post 1600, Shoshin the worst wrote:I'll switch to jjh as a sheer compromise but if that slot's town we'll start to see it.


I would've been fine with a Nico lynch but it seems like JJH plays in a non-lurk way and I trust that we'll start to see if it's town.

And Kokichi? I don't think so. We'll just continue to have that bad quality play, where he could be any alignment, and still a liability to town in my eyes.

Nancy, I think you tend to dislike anyone who begins to scumread you, so you do carry some bias I think - but Mewtaph's posts actually carry a lot of depth in them - compare to any scumgame of his, I think there's a slight difference. *shrug* Need to do a deeper study but I'm leaning town slightly.

Shoshin actually began to scumread Mew less recently, and I think that's kinda town-indicative for her, since scum!STW would be survivalistic and probably try to push the second-biggest wagon.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1665  (isolation #87)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:28 pm

Can you hide big quotes in spoilers (unless *super important*)? It makes the game easier to read, generally. :P

~J

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Post Post #1670  (isolation #88)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:37 pm

@Meph:

Can you concisely state your list of reasons to scumread Mew? We can talk about it.
I'm not deciding that I know what you think, I'm saying that IME you generally tended to scumread people who scumread you, so inductively it may hold here as well, contributing some bias.

I think Kokichi is pro-scum, it's not a simple matter of disliking his playstyle.

Let's talk about Mew, since you scumread him.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1672  (isolation #89)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:43 pm

VOTE: Mewtaph

Between STW and Mewtaph currently I'd choose this (although I like their posts and wanna continue playing with them :/ ), I feel this both are town wagons so scum's easiest move is to lurk, and that's likely what they're doing - so I want to get opinions from people

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1675  (isolation #90)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:50 pm

@Pint

Well, from my perspective:

>Two major wagons; one on STW and one on Mewtaph
>Lots of exchanges in the previous few pages where I believe the cases on STW at least are bad
>Some discussion on lynching Kokichi Oma instead; most believe it's a bad lynch cause "low info" (meh)

You said you townread STW, what's your read on Mewtaph?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1680  (isolation #91)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:01 pm

In post 1674, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:I extremely dislike having my opinions discredited based on someone telling me what I think claiming to know my reasoning better than me. You of course are free to disagree with the actual reasons themselves. Just please stop telling me that my reasons are something other than they are. Neither you or Chara has access to my brain and I would greatly prefer that you both stop acting like you do.

Where'd I say this? I just said you appear to have bias. It's a valid observation from an external perspective that doesn't require me to know what you truly think, Nancy.

In post 1674, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:A) He hardpushes Alchemist for reasons that make little sense, considering he has no meta on him and I know for a fact, his play is virtually identical to his play in OK 2.

3). Mew’s play is extremely different here than in SC1.

4) Weird Gamma question.

5) Scumly PL lynch bs.

6) Baseless hostility.

Weird numbering, but okay:
A) You're talking about post - if it made little sense to you, did you ask him to clarify? My best paraphrasing of that rather wordy post is: "Alchemist appears to be present without actually offering any opinions of merit to an exchange, this is scummy; feels artificial; took multiple stances but retracted them leaving options wide open" - these strike me as fine points to make, what about them is senseless?
3) Can you expand on the differences? And also note similarities with his scumgames?
4) He explained the motivation behind that question, I submit it's not weird - "Do you expect me to townread you for what you've posted so far" (not exactly what he asked but the spirit of it) is a fine question, and he did make use of the reaction.
5) Why is it scummy, exactly? His point was that you were making it hard for him to engage/push his scumread and not because of logical disagreements, if I remember right - can you really not see town saying this?
6) This is something I checked against his meta, and he's not been hostile in previous scumgames as far as I read, so I don't see why it's necessarily... scummy, again? So many people come off as a bit "hostile" as town.

~J

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Post Post #1682  (isolation #92)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:05 pm

Yes. ProFlavor, Mewtaph and Kokichi are all strongly pushing that wagon.

Please do read Mew's ISO, he has been more active - he's being pushed for a bunch of reasons I don't really agree with, and I'm leaning town from his posts. I'd love to hear your opinions on that slot.

Sure thing :D

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1689  (isolation #93)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:27 pm

@Nance:

That you appear to have bias makes me less inclined to sheep you easily; and also informs others not to; and also helps you better reads if it does exist and you recognize it, thus pro-town. :P

You said it was senseless and you don't buy it. His reasoning was devoid of meta, why would he need to have meta-knowledge to make that attack? Fine if you don't "buy" his attack, but scumreading him for it is a stretch, no? If you don't agree with it, it's NAI - unless you show me why his arguments were scummy.

I just went to his profile and read around three scumgames exclusively - his general posting seemed to be slightly shallower, and nowhere as complex as here. I'd like you to show the differences in his play exactly from SC1 to here, though? I'll know better what to look for when I go check his previous games.

Eh, it wasn't exactly a PL - he did have some reason to want to lynch you which was related to the current game. My current push on Kokichi Oma could also be construed as a "Policy Lynch" - do you think I'm scummy for it?

WRT his engaging you - prioritization (he wanted to push on stronger scumreads), and also you just called his push senseless and left it at that - I actually don't think this is as scummy as you make it out to be.

Why are you more confident in Nico than Kokichi? Do you not trust Shoshin when she says JJH will be readable in time?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1690  (isolation #94)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:28 pm

I'd prefer Kokichi FTR, but I can compromise onto Nicorobin's slot given I don't want to lynch either of STW/Mewtaph.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1692  (isolation #95)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:32 pm

In post 1691, Tibor and Lumia wrote:I'm interested. They have the least posts out of all the hydrae and by a decent margin (all the others are around the top for post count).

I'm just 20 posts behind you and Almost Chara, though? :P
I was kinda out of the game till recently.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1698  (isolation #96)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:39 pm

@Nancy:
It's not a discredit - inductively I'm allowed to make that observation, and I'm not using it to say you're wrong. If I'm wrong about the bias that *I* perceive of you having, people are free to disagree. :P

Look at STW's read progression there on Mewtaph. In their latest readslist they actually scumread Mewtaph less IIRC. Anyway, soulreads are stupid.

Why does it have the greatest scum equity? My argument is that if it IS scum, we'd more easily know in coming days than Kokichi's slot, *also* Kokichi's play is a liability for town.

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1709  (isolation #97)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:03 pm

He did explain his rationale later, are you not reading the thread T&L?
If you're doing some stream-of-consciousness thing I hope you'd consider writing one large post instead, so you can update it when you find the answer.

@Nancy: He stated why and I restated it too, you still haven't explained why it's scummy

~Jimothy

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Post Post #1714  (isolation #98)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:14 pm

In post 1711, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:I DID explain it. Either you missed it or disagreed. Why haven’t you posted the links I keep asking you for?

I recall saying it wasn't exactly a PL, but his point was that you were obfuscating / cluttering the thread or something preventing him from engaging / pushing a scumread; I can see why he thought that, why wouldn't town!Mew think this?

Sorry, I seem to have missed your response to my argument, can you requote/restate it? I'm not finding it on skimming.

As to links - I'm on my phone and about to go to bed, just go to his topics and click on some games I guess. But since you already have experience with him, I asked you to detail the differences in his play - can you, please?

~J

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Post Post #1730  (isolation #99)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:36 pm

In post 1722, Almost Chara wrote:
In post 1708, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:Thank you for this. Between Chara and MS, I was beginning to question my very valid problem with that.

why do i keep getting brought up with MS even when i've removed myself from that conversation on purpose?
if it'll keep this from happening constantly anymore: i thought about what you said and you're right that i shouldn't be telling you how you're thinking.
~Chara

How is this related to the scumminess of Mew's reasons to want to lynch Nancy, Chara? That was what she seemed to be talking about in that context.


VOTE: jjh
Happier here.

~J

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Post Post #1861  (isolation #100)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:58 pm

@Pinturicchio, can you get back to me on the question that I asked you in post ?

- Date Mike (Volxen)

In post 1236, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 588, Shoshin the worst wrote:
In post 585, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 577, Shoshin the worst wrote:I don't understand why you think there's no town motivation in our slot pushing/scumreading you. It's pretty simple. We scumread you.
The fact you can't engage with me about why we shouldn't scumread you or should townread you had me baffled.


I believe that there can be a town motivation for scumreading me. I didn't say town!you town!reads me 100%

We can post game why I'm not into reading myself in the thread. It basically boils down to the wifom/not wifom discussion you're in the middle of and my having no interest in having those types of discussions

The problem we're having here is that you kicked off this rabbit hole discussion by voting us because you believe town!tw should be townreading you, plus the hydra dynamic which for the umpteenth time should not be deemed alignment indicative.

I'm trying to parse how you came to the conclusion that it's scum indicative for us to be scumreading you and pushing you just because the worst and you have history. I still do not understand your rationale here.

If you think TW should >rand be townreading you, we definitely need a better metric against which to measure your towntells, because it means what we are doing at the moment is on the wrong track.

This conversation is pretty important. If you do need to back out of it for holistic playstyle/meta reasons we understand but also please try to see that from our perspective, that leaves you joining out wagon late into its formation for almost exactly no reason...


In post 591, pinturicchio wrote:
In post 577, Shoshin the worst wrote:I could give it a go with pintu but I'm not sure it'd get me anywhere.

I'm pocketed without the need of you doing anything <3

@Varsoon, I have a towntell on the duck, on the same line of your "stretch your minds" of Shoshin. I've seen the duck using the "holistical reads" as town before and can't recall him doing it as scum.

By the way @duck, why scumreading us? Felt like it came out of nowhere.

-Pin


TW actually used the phrase “holistic playstyle/meta reasons” here, not “holistical reads”. I looked into this, and TW using phrases like “holistic meta” or “holistic read” is definitely not a towntell for him. In fact, he used the phrase “holistic meta” in the first Starcraft game (as scum) four different times. I searched TW’s posts for the phrases “holistic meta”, “holistic read”, “holistic play”, and “holistic playstyle” as this is what I found:

TW has used the phrase “holistic meta” four times in the first Starcraft game as scum (link: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970):

Link to the first post where he used “holistic meta”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10584202&hilit=+holistic+meta#p10584202

In post 517, the worst wrote:
In post 278, Varsoon wrote:P-EDIT:

Everything above the pedit is cringe
Everything below the pedit is locktown-irl

Varsoon I think you're really caught up on like holistic meta stuff and I'm like... not all that interested in it.... do you think the reads have been bad? maliciously intended? which ones? why?


Link to the second post where he used “holistic meta”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10595081&hilit=+holistic+meta#p10595081

In post 1594, the worst wrote:But I'm also wary of the fact I'm fucking easily triggered by people using bullshit holistic meta tells so I might be seeing red


Link to the third post where he used “holistic meta”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10595151&hilit=+holistic+meta#p10595151

In post 1638, the worst wrote:since no one is seeing what I'm seeing:
Mewtaph has asked Xtoxm the same question a lot of us have already asked him (which townreads gave him pause)

I think he's already answered that question really well, and I think his answer was town indicative. Mewtaph has ignored his reads and later contribution and comments about playstyle anxiety leading him to freak out about the early townreads. Follow his reads and it's probably pretty clear that he had his own takes, but the Big Bad Townblock was too much for him to like.

Mewtaph thinks he's a mislynch / has not noticed that Xtoxm's initial freak-out about the townreadspam actually kinda checks out, so shades him for not responding and votes him over ellitell

I ask Mewtaph to back the ellitell up with an actual scumcase. He cites the very early part of Xtoxm's contributions. I ask him to go back to his later iso and show me which of Xtoxm's posts are making him still feel that way

Nancy randomly charge-tackles me to the ground and Mewtaph stands there watching us and acting all surprised that I asked him to back up this read.

Like idfk he hasn't warlocked Nancy, she did it of her own volition but I'm fucking done if I'm being shaded for asking someone who's done sweet fuck all to back up a horseshit holistic meta tell with an actual scumcase on a slot I'm townreading


Link to the fourth post where he used “holistic meta”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10615025&hilit=+holistic+meta#p10615025

In post 2977, the worst wrote:
In post 2975, Xtoxm wrote:I have to be able to trust that townies won't make reckless antitown plays like that.

You for real? I think Perf is scum but his hammer is the most defensible part of his ISO. The hell else was he meant to do with like 6 hours remaining? NM was clearly a very viable lynch candidate and imo if he was going to claim at all he would have already done it.

I'm kinda flashing back to something someone said to me pretty recently but if scum always made reckless antitown moves and town never did mafia would be like.. obscenely easier than it is. do you have reasoning other than an holistic meta dislike of hammers on unclaimed slots?



TW used the phrases “holistic meta” and “holistic gamestate read” one time each in Newbie 1866 as town (link: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76047)

Link to the post where he used “holistic meta”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76047&p=10178131&hilit=+holistic+meta#p10178131

Link to the post where he used “holistic gamestate read”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76047&p=10201152&hilit=+holistic+read#p10201152


TW used the phrase “holistic readthrough” one time In Newbie 1870 as town (link: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76282)

Link to the post where he used “holistic readthrough”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76282&p=10264643&hilit=+holistic+read#p10264643


TW used the phrase “holistic read” one time in Open 737 as town (link: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77146)

Link to the post where he used “holistic read”: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77146&p=10453007&hilit=+holistic+read#p10453007

No results came up for “holistic play” or “holistic playstyle” when searching TW’s posts.

Granted, TW has used phrases like “holistic read” or something along those lines as town, but in this game the exact phrase he used in post was “holistic playstyle/meta reasons”, and he has used “holistic meta” four times as much as scum than he has as town. In any case, TW frequently uses the word “holistic” in general (there are 41 results for just the word “holistic” when searching TW’s posts), so at best him using the phrase “holistic playstyle/meta reasons” is NAI for him. So @Pinturicchio, why were you so quick to label this as a “towntell” for TW when it clearly isn’t?

And @The Worst, what are your thoughts on Pinturicchio incorrectly applying this as a “towntell” for your slot?

- Date Mike (Volxen)

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Post Post #1902  (isolation #101)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:00 pm

Finally you guys decide to wagon Kokichi. Yay!

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

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Post Post #1903  (isolation #102)  » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:25 pm

In post 1865, Shoshin the worst wrote:@urap2 notice anything uncomfortable about ProFlavor's reads?

BS reads list; starting to scumread that slot

~James

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Post Post #1916  (isolation #103)  » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:12 am

In post 1855, ProFlavor wrote:
In post 1848, Shoshin the worst wrote:@PF is that fence comfortable?

I know

I was gonna do this then loads of pedits to read

Shoshin the worst (the worst + Shoshin hydra) - would
Mephistophanes 39 (Nancy Drew 39 and Aristophanes hydra) - nah
Varsoon nah
Almost Chara (Almost50 + Chara Hydra) nah
Michael Scott (Auro + Volxen Hydra) would
Kokichi Oma - nah
Tibor and Lumia (brassherald and Gamma Emerald hydra) nah
jjh927 nicorobin - reluctantly if we have to
Mewtaph - if FL wants to
alchemist21 - probably not
ProFlavor (Flavor Leaf and profii hydra) - hallelujah
u r a person 2 - if FL wants to
pinturicchio nah
Taly nah


Would lynch
Nah - wouldn’t lynch
If FL wants to = if he is confident with his read, I’m not so he can trump me


Sometimes a game feels like it’s going towards a day 1 scum lynch - I feel like this game was doing that @ STW and now it’s not because everything is so unclear to me - this means a vocal player has probably muddied the waters enough which just circles me back round to wanting to lynch STW

This is all

~ woof

Btw


This is a BS lynch list, there are 13 other slots besides your own and the only two slots you would even consider lynching unreluctantly are STW's slot and our slot? I don't buy that this solve comes from town!you.

I think you may just be hard pocketing Varsoon (who I think is town) with your tunnel on STW (who I also think is town). It's also interesting how you were on the initial STW wagon, then you joined the URAP2 wagon when STW's wagon fell apart, and now you are back on STW's wagon once again. In fact you and Pint (who I'm also skeptical of) were the two common denominators between the early STW wagon (which got up to 6 votes) and the early URAP2 wagon (which got up to 4 votes):

In post 175, Krazy wrote:Votecount 1.3
Shoshin the worst(6) ~ pinturicchio(3), Tibor and Lumia(8), u r a person 2(7), ProFlavor(6), Varsoon(38), Alchemist21(21)
Taly(1) ~ Shoshin the worst(24)
Alchemist21(1) ~ Mewtaph(1)


Not Voting (6): Mephistophanes 39(34), Almost Chara(4), Michael Scott(6), Kokichi Oma(6), NicoRobin(2), Taly(6)

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-01-16 22:06:24)


In post 500, Krazy wrote:Votecount 1.6
u r a person 2(4) ~ Shoshin the worst(50), Michael Scott(34), ProFlavor(15), pinturicchio(20)
Shoshin the worst(1) ~ Varsoon(84)
Kokichi Oma(1) ~ Taly(38)
Alchemist21(1) ~ Mewtaph(2)


Not Voting (6): Mephistophanes 39(112), Almost Chara(19), Kokichi Oma(8), Tibor and Lumia(28), NicoRobin(3), Alchemist21(39), u r a person 2 (32)

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-01-16 22:12:40)


- Date Mike (Volxen)

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Post Post #1922  (isolation #104)  » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:26 am

VOTE: ProFlavor

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Post Post #1935  (isolation #105)  » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:38 am

@STW, Join us on the ProFlavor wagon?

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Post Post #2059  (isolation #106)  » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:16 pm

In post 1942, pinturicchio wrote:Volxen's case on me is awful, and Meph's swing on me is worse.

I wasn't on STW's wagon, the wagon happened when my RVS vote was there and I unvoted as soon as I could. I was on URAP2's wagon, yes, but I think I made myself clear about him...? And Michael Scott was on that wagon too, so Volxen trying to shade me while pushing ProFlavor is scummy, and I already had my doubts about that slot.

Nancy clearly disagrees with me on Taly/Creature and ProFlavor and that makes me scum... Great job, you caught me! And then you ask why is nobody listening you.

Scum is in {Creature, jjh, Kokichi, Michael Scott}

Already explained Creature and jjh, and I include Kokichi there since the chainsaw defense Taly was doing could be towards Nico or Kokichi, one or the other. Michael Scott recent swing at me with an argument he could've made 7 days ago seems manufactured, like he had that saved for when he needed to push me/ProFlavor.

I'll support any of those lynches.


Interesting how you came to hard scumread our slot (and have the exact same reads as Profii) only after we called out Profii for his BS lynch list and voted him for it. Yes, you did unvote STW after he got up to 6 votes in his initial wagon, but the fact remains that you and ProFlavor were (1) on the initial STW wagon together, (2) on the URAP2 wagon together, and now (3) on the STW wagon again together. And yes, we were on the URAP2 wagon also, but that is beside the point, which is that you and ProFlavor have been on multiple major wagons together. And particularly in the case of STW's early wagon, I don't believe he got up to 6/8 votes (L-2) without scum involvement.

Even more interesting is the fact that you have done a complete 180 on STW and joined their wagon, but only after a wagon against ProFlavor started forming.

By the way, I'm still unconvinced that your "holistic towntell" for TW was something that you genuinely believed in. Post was the post where TW used the word "holistic" one time, post was the post where you said it was a towntell for TW, and there was only a five-minute gap between the two posts. This means you didn't even think about it or meta dive TW, you just townlocked him (at the time anyways) because he used the word "holistic" one time in this game. Why should I believe that is more likely to come from town!Pint rather than scum!Pint? Because it seems more likely that it was just a fake TMI read. I think town!you would have taken sorting TW more seriously.

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Post Post #2075  (isolation #107)  » Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:41 pm

By the way, where exactly is Flavor Leaf? There is no way that I see town!Flavor Leaf approving that BS lynch list that Profii posted in post . Auro, Flavor Leaf and I all played together in Newbie 1900 (link: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=77781) -- Auro and FL were town in that game, and I was scum. FL was able to get an accurate townread on Auro on day one in that game, and Auro has made most of the posts on our hydra account in this game until I started posting more recently. I can't speak to how accurately I would expect town!FL to read town!me (since FL has never played with town!me before), but I don't see him completely misreading town!Auro in this game. I'm not saying that town!FL would necessarily have us as locktown here, but I don't buy that town!FL would approve a lynch list that consists of only {STW, Michael Scott}.

- Date Mike (Volxen)

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Post Post #2127  (isolation #108)  » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:33 pm

In post 2077, pinturicchio wrote:
In post 2075, Michael Scott wrote:By the way, where exactly is Flavor Leaf? There is no way that I see town!Flavor Leaf approving that BS lynch list that Profii posted in post . Auro, Flavor Leaf and I all played together in Newbie 1900 (link: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=77781) -- Auro and FL were town in that game, and I was scum. FL was able to get an accurate townread on Auro on day one in that game, and Auro has made most of the posts on our hydra account in this game until I started posting more recently. I can't speak to how accurately I would expect town!FL to read town!me (since FL has never played with town!me before), but I don't see him completely misreading town!Auro in this game. I'm not saying that town!FL would necessarily have us as locktown here, but I don't buy that town!FL would approve a lynch list that consists of only {STW, Michael Scott}.

- Date Mike (Volxen)

So let me know if I got it right: Flavor townread correctly Auro once, so he should be townreading your slot because of that; if he isn't townreading your slot, then the only conclusion is ProFlavor is scum?


Yes, I don't see town!FL having our slot as lockscum. Especially since the only post where Profii really talked about us at length was in post , where he declared us as a scumread because we listed STW as a townread:

In post 1621, ProFlavor wrote:@Michael Scott

Why do you think STW is town?

I can see loads of posts saying you don't think he is scum but I cant see anything that says why you think that...

This makes me paranoid that you KNOW STW is town rather than THINK STW is scum


I mean if you are going to say something fluffy like you soul read one of S or TW can you at least say I know X does Y as town so I'm confident - examples would really help


because I'm like trying to work out if you are trying not to bus your pal and that's why the wagon is so hard or if you are trying to be like "see told you he was town" later and come off as "Ive got good reads" when actually you're just scum and know.


I implore everyone else to ISO Michael Scott, see if you can see any evidence of why he doesn't want to lynch STW - something fishy in there imo.


~ woof


This post is bad because it presents a false dichotomy: that we are scum and our townread of STW is because either (1) we are scum together with STW and don't want to bus them or (2) we are scum and STW is town and we want towncredit if or when STW flips green. He acts like it's a forgone conclusion that one of those two scenarios has to be the case, and he doesn't even consider the possibility that (3) STW and our slot are both town and we simply have an accurate read on them or (4) STW is scum and we are town that is misreading their slot.

It's like Profii cannot fathom the possibility that we could be town and at the same time completely disagree with him on a read.

Basically, Profii's entire scumread of us is based on us townreading STW and not wanting to lynch them, which is how he made the leap from what he posted in post to his lynch list of {STW, Michael Scott} in post . I don't believe that town!FL would have us as lockscum for simply disagreeing with him on how we read the STW slot.

- Date Mike (Volxen)

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Post Post #2416  (isolation #109)  » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:10 am

In post 1657, Almost Chara wrote:by the way, i agree that Michael Scott is town.

In post 2411, Almost Chara wrote:i think a good number of scum are in jjh/Kokichi/u2/MS/Mewtaph because i'm townreading everyone else.


What changed, Chara?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #2429  (isolation #110)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:39 am

ProFlavor, thoughts on Creature? I agree with A50's assessment.

VOTE: Creature

~Jimothy

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Post Post #2430  (isolation #111)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:41 am

Varsoon, do you think it's probable that scum tried to pocket you while bandwagoning onto Shoshin?
Who would you think would be likely culprits in that case?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #2431  (isolation #112)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 5:49 am

In post 2299, Varsoon wrote:Anyway I didn't wanna out this but whatever I'm dying anyway fuck it

My Dayvig fails if it hits scum.

Is this true, Varsoon?
Is yours a day-vig and not on nights?
You were considering a Mephi kill; for the night? Were you the one who shot Mephi?

(Sorry if the questions are dumb; I just need clarification)

~Jimothy

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Post Post #2440  (isolation #113)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:03 am

In post 2429, Michael Scott wrote:ProFlavor, thoughts on Creature?


@ProFlavor

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Post Post #2442  (isolation #114)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:03 am

EBWOP: Oh nevermind :P

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Post Post #2453  (isolation #115)  » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:52 am

@Alch: I have a general idea of where I want to push; I'm waiting for a little more content to strengthen my reads.

@Pint: How is ProFlavor town?

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Post Post #2495  (isolation #116)  » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:20 am

Didn't move at night

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Post Post #2532  (isolation #117)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:14 am

In post 2526, Creature wrote:Yeah the wagon on me is horrible

In post 2529, Varsoon wrote:VOTE: Michael Scott
Why?
In that case, let's start here.

Why?

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Post Post #2533  (isolation #118)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:19 am

In post 2526, Creature wrote:Yeah the wagon on me is horrible

This is the defense to the case on him you're all buying? :lol:

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Post Post #2535  (isolation #119)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:24 am

Flavor Leaf; I'll ask you to form a read on me, since I think I've only seen your partner's read, considering you know my towngame.
I asked previously: What do you make of the case on Creature? And now, Creature's defense?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #2541  (isolation #120)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:37 pm

In post 2529, Varsoon wrote:VOTE: Michael Scott

In that case, let's start here.


And you defaulted to voting for our slot because...? In any case, we should be looking at the STW wagon from day one, because there was most certainly scum on that wagon. I'll be posting some VCA of STW's wagon along with my overall thoughts later, but assuming you really are town I believe that you were hard-pocketed by at least one scum on STW's wagon.

So again, why default to voting for us? We weren't even the ones who first suggested wagoning Creature.

- Date Mike (Volxen)

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Post Post #2571  (isolation #121)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:49 pm

Play being underwhelming is actually town indicative at best or NAI for me; check out my previous scumgames. I have some leads to push, but as I said, I'm waiting for answers to a few questions I haven't gotten yet.

I was fairly proactive ~Jimothy

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Post Post #2573  (isolation #122)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:06 pm

It's not a defense per se, Varsoon, I'm saying we have leads to pursue but we're waiting for certain answers which we've not gotten yet, and my slot's going to be "less underwhelming" when that happens.

What's the problem with that?

The last sentence got cut off, I was referring to how I was proactive in trying to prevent the STW lynch.

How good are you at reading Creature?
Why is pressure on Creature bad, considering he's easy to read under pressure?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #2574  (isolation #123)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:07 pm

And you should know that "being underwhelming" in itself isn't something I've done as scum in my previous games, especially in my game with you. Do you disagree with this?

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Post Post #2577  (isolation #124)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:10 pm

That's fine; you said you didn't like my "defense" so I'd like to talk about that. :P

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Post Post #2579  (isolation #125)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:17 pm

I haven't been underwhelming objectively as scum in all my scumgames.
Being underwhelming then should not be AI in itself, no?

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Post Post #2581  (isolation #126)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:24 pm

The opposite, I'm saying I have *NOT* been "underwhelming" as scum.
And being "underwhelming" in the sense I'm speaking of isn't bad necessarily, just that I haven't aggressively pushed anywhere yet. Why is that bad?

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Post Post #2582  (isolation #127)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:25 pm

And sure, push me - but also expect me to defend against a push. :P

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Post Post #2584  (isolation #128)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:27 pm

Contrast with Creature, who tends to post with a lot more interest as town especially under pressure, and hates playing scum and flakes as a result.

His lurking is AI there, significantly.

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Post Post #2586  (isolation #129)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:29 pm

In post 2583, Varsoon wrote:I dunno man, I don't like you going to that as your first line of defense.

I defended from both angles - that in itself it isn't a good tool to read me, and that if he's referring to my inactivity, I'll pick up on that after some time, given I have a few leads I'm waiting to engage on.

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Post Post #2587  (isolation #130)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:32 pm

In post 2585, Varsoon wrote:Aight then but when creature flips town what do we do
VOTE: Creature

Cus I think the meta arguments against creature are lame AF.

I don't think Creature is the only wagon we should explore, I think you were pocketed and scum was definitely on the STW wagon, that's what I want to look at.

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Post Post #2588  (isolation #131)  » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:33 pm

Questions I want answered:
1. FL's read on me
2. ProFlavor's read on Creature
3. Mew's read on Creature, and why he didn't comment when that wagon was forming

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Post Post #2609  (isolation #132)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:50 am

@ProFlavor: Where's Flavor? What's Flavor's read on me?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #2610  (isolation #133)  » Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:52 am

In post 2531, Mewtaph wrote:VOTE: Michael Scott

In post 2602, Mewtaph wrote:VOTE: jjh927


Naked votes while prodging D2 after claiming "to be framed" immediately, while ALSO not commenting on the Creature wagon.

Pings scummy to me.

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Post Post #2658  (isolation #134)  » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:48 pm

Just finished a game against town!Creature, and his posts here under pressure seem nothing like how he posted there when he was being pushed.

@A50, you're good at reading Creature, yes? Are you confident it flips scum?

~Jimothy

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Post Post #2667  (isolation #135)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:04 am

I think Pint and Jjh are both likely scum, and Mewtaph might be the third.

Tibor&Lumia I think is town.
Un-counterclaimed Varsoon is mechanical town.


VOTE: Jjh

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Post Post #2668  (isolation #136)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:06 am

Didn't move this night as well. My role can't.

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Post Post #2669  (isolation #137)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:07 am

Do we have a massclaim today?

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Post Post #2672  (isolation #138)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:09 am

In post 2671, Auro wrote:I think since we're at most a day apart from LyLo we should massclaim anyway.
If everyone agrees, I can start. I'd prefer popcorn.

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Post Post #2674  (isolation #139)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:11 am

Varsoon, it's fine if you tell us more about your role now, right? Or actually, no, I think Varsoon should reveal his role info last.

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Post Post #2678  (isolation #140)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:39 am

In post 2675, Almost Chara wrote:i'm also maintaining my pintu townread here. need to look back at how i feel on the rest.

Can you explain the Pintu townread? He was on both mislynch wagons.

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Post Post #2680  (isolation #141)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:16 am

Varsoon, any scumreads?

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Post Post #2683  (isolation #142)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:50 am

JJH, start the massclaim please?

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Post Post #2686  (isolation #143)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:21 am

Nah, I think Kokichi was a good shot so it's cool.
With our updated information wrt flips, help find scum, 'Soon!

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Post Post #2687  (isolation #144)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:22 am

I don't know why Varsoon wouldn't have been targeted by scum, considering low-info NK also. I'll go check URAP2's EOD pushes.

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Post Post #2688  (isolation #145)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:25 am

In post 2424, u r a person 2 wrote:The readlist that ~woof put out at eod still looks scummy.

In post 2128, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:I had been townreading in varying degrees, everyone outside of Mew, Eraserhead (Profalavor), Pint and jjh but I’m thinking I may be wrong about Pint, so that would mean one of my townreads would have to be wrong.

I’m not sure which one though but Eraserhead advocating for my mislynch makes me think, my vote may be right after all.


Both NK'd people were scumreading ProFlavor.

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Post Post #2690  (isolation #146)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:41 am

Then why URAP2 over Varsoon?

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Post Post #2693  (isolation #147)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:34 am

Pocketed... I feel you were, by ProFlavor. :P

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Post Post #2695  (isolation #148)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:13 pm

And why does 2658 incriminate me? People (perhaps) better at reading Creature than me were calling it his scum game, I asked A50 how sure he was - explain how that's scummy?

You were also on that wagon, weren't you? And also explain why my reads on JJH/Mewtaph are bad.

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Post Post #2699  (isolation #149)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:24 pm

In post 2696, pinturicchio wrote:I think it's funny you called the same scumteam Creature did but with me instead of you. And I think that post is incriminating because of timing; just after Creature called you scum, you reafirmed why you were voting him, but giving the space to doubt with "are you confident it flips scum?", as you weren't that confident.

I think you're bussing jjh, I started that wagon yesterday (not with a vote, but the wagon started after I pushed him), and I don't know your case against Mew but he's probably town because you're pushing him.

"Just after"? Wrong, Creature was calling me scum way before that; he started a wagon on me - go check.
This should break your case.

Also, if JJH is my buddy, help bus him? :P There's a wagon on him right now and you think both of us are scum, yet you vote me?

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Post Post #2700  (isolation #150)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:25 pm

What's your read on T&L, Pint?

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Post Post #2706  (isolation #151)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:39 pm

In post 2703, Varsoon wrote:Yeah it's Michael Scott for scum.
Too many :P faces.

VOTE: Michael Scott

How is this even a reason?
I was using the same faces as Excalibur, I was town there.
Explain.

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Post Post #2707  (isolation #152)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:41 pm

In post 2704, pinturicchio wrote:I meant after the post talking about his final reads.

If you're willing to buss jjh and jjh is not willing to go after you, I think that you're more relevant, or even that maybe I'm wrong and jjh is just town.

Yeah, but that destroys the idea that I made that post *because* he just called me scum. Obviously I was going to be scum in his final reads - and AFAIR I couldn't comment on the other game I was in with him because it was ongoing at that time.

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Post Post #2709  (isolation #153)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:43 pm

In post 2692, Varsoon wrote:Gotta figure I wasn't targeted because scum knew I'd be killing town and that I'm pocketed.

And this *doesn't* factor into your reads at all?
Or that STW's wagon likely has scum on it?

You think I'm scum because... Too many emoticons?

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Post Post #2710  (isolation #154)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:45 pm

In post 2708, pinturicchio wrote:Oh, ok, I get your point, didn't know that game was ongoing.

Not only that, but he flipped town in that game - I was scum and NK'd him. When my slot was pushing him, he hyperposted to the top, was putting in a lot of effort to solve the game, and even said hyperposting is town-exclusive.

None of that happened this game.

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Post Post #2712  (isolation #155)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:49 pm

In post 2696, pinturicchio wrote:I don't know your case against Mew

Read Mew's D2 ISO - tell me what you make of it.

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Post Post #2715  (isolation #156)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:52 pm

In post 2713, pinturicchio wrote:@MS yeah I get it. But you asking to someone else about metareads doesn't make sense if you had all that info

It totally makes sense. If a person whose read accuracy on a slot is very high, and they're highly confident on said slot, flipping otherwise points towards a good likelihood of them being scum.

I was evaluating the info I had to my capability.

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Post Post #2717  (isolation #157)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:54 pm

In post 1860, Mewtaph wrote:Shredding my town read on Taly.

In post 2367, Mewtaph wrote:Alright... that's a kill on obv town that doubly serves in framing me.

In post 2428, Mewtaph wrote:Well, for positions to be relevant then some actions need to be dependent in some way based on position, right? Mephisto's ability isn't gated through positions though, and Varsoon's is implied not to be. So instead, it could be plausible that any scum player can make the night kill, but they'd have to be within X range. This would make Mephisto's flipped watcher role, for example, much more likely to find results, if say, a mafia member could only make the kill if they were within 2 positions away.

(This is mostly a prodge tbh.)

In post 2531, Mewtaph wrote:VOTE: Michael Scott

In post 2602, Mewtaph wrote:VOTE: jjh927


This is his D2 ISO. Temme.

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Post Post #2719  (isolation #158)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:55 pm

In post 2716, pinturicchio wrote:What I mean is: if you, with all that info you had, were sure that Creature was flipping scum, why do you ask someone else if they're sure about him flipping scum.

P-edit: so you weren't that confident?

I was confident given the info I had; but I believe A50 is *better* at reading the slot. The purpose wasn't to begin to re-evaluate because the push was going through anyway, it was to hold A50 to his confidence.

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Post Post #2721  (isolation #159)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:56 pm

That's fine and all, Varsoon. Help solve the game now!

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Post Post #2723  (isolation #160)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:57 pm

FWIW Shoshin and Meph both townread me, so that should say something.

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Post Post #2724  (isolation #161)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:00 pm

In post 2722, Varsoon wrote:I don't know how to.

You have a starting point: You felt you were pocketed D1.
Another: Scum were likely on Shoshin.
Another: Dead people's reads.

I feel scum might have stayed off Creature and on JJH if jjh is town, because they'd *know* Creature is town and the Lynch makes the wagon look bad; if jjh is scum I'm not sure.

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Post Post #2726  (isolation #162)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:03 pm

She flipped town. Also I disbanded your case on me. :P

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Post Post #2727  (isolation #163)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:04 pm

You're in a tunnel. You'd also be scumreading me if Meph scumread me.

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Post Post #2729  (isolation #164)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:08 pm

What's your read on Mewtaph?

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Post Post #2731  (isolation #165)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:12 pm

If I was scum pocketing Nancy, that's a great asset to have - because she'd be a very strong voice if a wagon built on me, fighting against my lynch. And if all her scumreads were town, I'd very happily have her live.

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Post Post #2733  (isolation #166)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:21 pm

Haha, if you believe I was pocketing her, I can point to some instances that indicate otherwise. I recall explicitly saying her reads are biased towards scumreading people who scumread her, and we argued about it over a few posts: If I was pocketing her, no way I'd pick a fight with her that may end up with me getting scumread.

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Post Post #2734  (isolation #167)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:22 pm

URAP2, the second NK also had me at town.
Are you saying scum!Me just kills people who townread me, twice, so I can convince people who actually scumread me that I'm town?

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Post Post #2735  (isolation #168)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:24 pm

1. Look at Shoshin's reads
2. Look at Shoshin's wagon
3. Look at Meph's reads
4. Look at URAP2's reads
5. (Weaker) look at Creature's wagon

Pint, do you really not think we should scumhunt using the above 5, for the highest likelihood of hitting scum?

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Post Post #2736  (isolation #169)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:27 pm

In post 2242, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:
In post 2239, Shoshin the worst wrote:Vca + lack of counterwagon is kinda spewing us town here too. Wagon froze early (there was a lot of wolf action on it. Early probably) and has been crawling since as townies are getting annoyed at us or compromising. Unless you literally think out scumbuddy is creature pushing a jjh cw which we don't endorse at the last moment you probably realise this

(@all btw)


No and anyone currently posting in this thread, who’s actually town should unvote you now.

I think my NK equity has just shot througj the roof.

If I die, tonight, please vig/lynch Mew.

In post 2243, Shoshin the worst wrote:or ProFlavor pls

Even Shoshin had ProFlavor as a scumread.

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Post Post #2738  (isolation #170)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:35 pm

We should massclaim, see if mechanics help us hone in on scum, and wagon JJH.

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Post Post #2741  (isolation #171)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:39 pm

We let Varsoon, conftown, propose an order.

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Post Post #2742  (isolation #172)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:40 pm

I'd suggest:

jjh927
Mewtaph
ProFlavor
Pinturicchio
Almost Chara
Michael Scott
T&L
Varsoon

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Post Post #2745  (isolation #173)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:42 pm

Also, I'm an informed townie - I'll reveal that information after the massclaim.

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Post Post #2746  (isolation #174)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:43 pm

In post 2744, pinturicchio wrote:I already claimed tho

Sorry, missed it. What was it?

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Post Post #2749  (isolation #175)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:47 pm

Ah yeah missed Alchemist. I'd keep him above T&L or just above me.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2751  (isolation #176)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:49 pm

Mewtaph, explain:
1. Your naked votes D2
2. Why you didn't join the Creature wagon when you "shredded" your TR on the slot
3. Your current reads

Thanks.

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Post Post #2753  (isolation #177)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:52 pm

In post 1860, Mewtaph wrote:Shredding my town read on Taly.

This isn't consistent with what you just said.

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Post Post #2757  (isolation #178)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:05 pm

I actually feel that defense seemed towny.
Mew, scunreads and cases please.

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Post Post #2759  (isolation #179)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:12 pm

I can wait, I gotta sleep as well. Basically I'd like to collect reads pre massclaim.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2764  (isolation #180)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:40 pm

Varsoon, I think not killing is better if we mislynch today.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2765  (isolation #181)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:41 pm

[Role]
[N1 movement]
[N2 movement]

Should be the claim format, regardless of whether you told your move earlier. Makes things easier. Let's start with jjh, in Varsoon's list. Go.

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Post Post #2788  (isolation #182)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:15 pm

Guys... Wait for massclaim to finish.

Part of my information is that there are multiple BP - may not be unlimited, though. So that in itself shouldn't be a reason for scumreading someone IMO.

ALSO, whoever has BP should *not* claim it; that information is only useful to scum, and if someone with BP attracts an NK attempt, it's good for town.

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Post Post #2790  (isolation #183)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:18 pm

I'm talking about *just* the BP parts. How would BP claims help lynch, anyway? Balance?

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2792  (isolation #184)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:19 pm

I think casing should be done after the massclaim.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2796  (isolation #185)  » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:34 pm

ProFlavor, you're up next.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2798  (isolation #186)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:06 am

Ground/Air unit? Also @Brass

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2799  (isolation #187)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:07 am

Alchemist, claim pls
Also reads?

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2801  (isolation #188)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:15 am

In post 2385, Almost Chara wrote:On fact, forget about jjh. His move towards the middle is NOT scum indicative. He was already there and he didn't move to gain any advantage, so he is unlikely to have a killing ability and -also- doesn't look afraid of being shot either.

~A50


Really, really good guess at jjh's role which makes me feel is borderline TMI.

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Post Post #2802  (isolation #189)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:17 am

Almost Chara, I'd like you to participate in the game more and help solve it.
@the rest: Does Chara have a lurk meta for scum? Anyone familiar with it?

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2804  (isolation #190)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:02 am

Explain the TR on AC please, I'm getting paranoid about that slot.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2807  (isolation #191)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:24 am

Alch, could you link me to a couple of your most scumgames?

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2808  (isolation #192)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:25 am

Most recent*
Skimmed Dolphins and Gamma refers to one; I'd like that. I've been going through your topics on mobile but couldn't find it yet.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2810  (isolation #193)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:29 am

Awesome! Thanks.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2811  (isolation #194)  » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:34 am

Almost Chara, your turn, then I'll claim.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2814  (isolation #195)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:34 am

@Almost Chara, claim.

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Post Post #2815  (isolation #196)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:47 am

We also need to puzzle out the relevance of the movement mechanics and ground/air dichotomy. I'm not able to figure out anything ATM. Any help here would be great. Where is everyone?

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2816  (isolation #197)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:21 am

In post 2805, Mewtaph wrote:Zerg viper - flying, move anywhere, drags

Mewtaph, is this 100% your role?
No mistake?

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2817  (isolation #198)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:05 am

I think I have the game solved, nearly -- will wait for AC's claim so I can claim next first, nonetheless.

Michael Scott
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Post Post #2820  (isolation #199)  » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:15 am

Pint, I'd like to hear what your other reads are - especially now that you re-evaluated my slot.

@Mew: Okay then. You promised reads and cases btw.

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