Are endgamed players dead

This forum is for discussion related to the game.
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Are endgamed players dead

Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:36 pm

Post by BNL »

I feel that I'm probably in the minority for this, but I'm strongly in the camp that endgamed players are not dead; I wouldn't move losing town players into the dead spoiler, and I wouldn't mark games which I lost in LyLo as town that I died (though this has never happened to me). In spite of wanting standardisation for game OPs, this is something I disagree with.

Here's why I rule endgamed players as still alive: they are not dead yet. Yes, it's true that they will eventually be dead once the game plays out and the Mafia kill all the remaning townies. However at the point the game ends, those townies are still alive. The game has ended because an outcome that the Mafia must win has been achieved, not because all the townies have died. In other words, consider yourself watching a video of a full mafia game where it is played out until one faction is completely eliminated. Once Mafia = Town, we can pause the video here because the outcome of the game is certain. However, at the time of pausing, the doomed town players are not dead yet.

I would like to bring an analogy here: chess. Being endgamed in Mafia is analogous to being checkmated in chess. The goal of chess is to prevent your king from being captured. Once you have been checkmated, this means the opponent is guaranteed to be able to capture your king, and the game is called here because the outcome of the game is certain. Have you already lost? Yes. Has the king been captured and taken off the board? NO. I think the analogy between being endgamed and being checkmated can be drawn here, and while I don't think this analogy automatically means that the situation is identical between chess and Mafia, I believe similar principles apply here that endgamed players are not dead, and this example helps to illustrate my point.



On a related but different topic, I believe the Mafia's wincon is "Kill all the non-Mafia players", and not "Mafia control 50% of the players", and the latter was only derived as a simplification of the former rule due to them being identical in the absence of vigs and docs etc. While I don't have a problem with the latter wincon, I see it as a variant win condition for weird setups, and is used in normals only so stuff like Goon vs Town Roleblocker or Goon vs Bulletproof Townie are ruled as Mafia wins rather than a draw/stalemate. In cases where the wincons are identical, I would use the former wincon even though it is more complicated, simply because it is the standard wincon.
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #2 (isolation #1) » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:56 pm

Post by BNL »

Yes, in the end, this is something that is ultimately just flavour. However, this is something I find interesting to discuss because many people will have different viewpoints.

I think it’s fairly obvious based on what I wrote that I believe endgamed =/= dead?

I don’t feel 50% rule for mafia win should Normal, even though it rarely ever makes a difference and solve problems like ties. However I do think it may be necessary for certain theme games for balance.
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #6 (isolation #2) » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:05 am

Post by BNL »

In post 4, Toomai wrote:
In post 0, BNL wrote:I'm strongly in the camp that endgamed players are not dead
In post 0, BNL wrote:I believe the Mafia's wincon is "Kill all the non-Mafia players", and not "Mafia control 50% of the players"
So if endgamed players are not dead, but the Mafia must dead everyone to win, then you believe endgaming should not be a thing that takes place at all?
If not then that's a highly contradictory pair of opinions.
That was a summary; the full win condition is “Kill all the non-Mafia players, or nothing can prevent the same”. Usually, once the Mafia achieve a majority, the game will result in a scum win no matter what.

However, in cases with equal scum and town going into Night with a town Doctor and Vigilante, they can both prevent a kill from scum and kill town, putting town at majority again, allowing them to regain vote control and kill all the scum. As unlikely as town can win from here, this opportunity must be given. However, the second wincon will rule the game as an immediate scum win without letting the Night play out, which is wrong.
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #7 (isolation #3) » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:19 am

Post by BNL »

In post 5, Cheery Dog wrote:Endgaming is just a forgone conclusion to the results (scum have the majority), it's skipping the remaining days and nights where the rest of town dies.
No. Endgame is ending the game when the game’s outcome is certain without playing out the game.

Consider a Mountainous 2:7 Mafia game where town lose on Day 3. All moderators who bother updating the OP post-game will write “Player, Townie, endgamed Day 3” or similar somewhere in the OP. Pay attention to “endgamed Day 3”; this shows that the townies have already lost on Day 3. The game does not autojump to the point where all townies would eventually be killed by the Mafia, or it would say “died Night 3”, “died Day 4” for the 2 endgamed townies.

Ergo, being endgamed is not being killed.
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #9 (isolation #4) » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:28 am

Post by BNL »

In post 8, Not_Mafia wrote:Cheery is correct, endgaming is merely expediting the process of the other players being killed, just like separating modkilled players is clutter and entirely unnecessary, so is separating endgamed players
In post 7, BNL wrote:
In post 5, Cheery Dog wrote:Endgaming is just a forgone conclusion to the results (scum have the majority), it's skipping the remaining days and nights where the rest of town dies.
No. Endgame is ending the game when the game’s outcome is certain without playing out the game.

Consider a Mountainous 2:7 Mafia game where town lose on Day 3. All moderators who bother updating the OP post-game will write “Player, Townie, endgamed Day 3” or similar somewhere in the OP. Pay attention to “endgamed Day 3”; this shows that the townies have already lost on Day 3. The game does not autojump to the point where all townies would eventually be killed by the Mafia, or it would say “died Night 3”, “died Day 4” for the 2 endgamed townies.

Ergo, being endgamed is not being killed.
Please read countered arguments before you post.

Also, I do not separate endgamed players, I put them in the alive spoiler:
BulletNLynchproof wrote:
Spoiler: Alive
  1. Dunnstral
    , endgamed Day 4
  2. Eragon
    , survives and wins!


Spoiler: Dead
Carcalilly
, lynched Day 1
northsidegal
, killed Night 1
Wh4t
, lynched Day 2
schadd_
, killed Night 2
RadiantCowbells
, lynched Day 3
Performer
, killed Night 3
Skygazer
, lynched Day 4
(From my modded Micro 827)
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #18 (isolation #5) » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:12 pm

Post by BNL »

I really wish people came in to actually counter the arguments that I have listed rather than just stating their view on the matter disregarding everything I say.

I'll repeat: The mafia win condition is "You win when the Mafia kill everyone else,
or nothing can prevent the same
." This means that anyone suggesting that the game is fast forwarded to the point where all the townies are dead is wrong.

Yes, this means that if the game is simulated out and will lead to a Mafia victory no matter what they do, then all townies die and the Mafia win. No, this does not mean that those townies in question are dead, because that is only a simulation; the game is not actually played out.
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #20 (isolation #6) » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:18 pm

Post by BNL »

The game ends when the Mafia can inevitably kill everyone else. This does not mean that the Mafia have actually killed everyone else.
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #49 (isolation #7) » Wed May 08, 2019 1:10 am

Post by BNL »

All right, some follow up questions:

1. What do you call the time between the Mafia having a certain victory, and the time where all townies are killed? I call this the endgame, and thus use "Players alive in the endgame" to refer to the surviving Mafia and endgamed townies, but the site disagrees with me, so what is the proper name for it?

2. I see "endgamed" as shorthand for "survived but lost". This shorthand is also used for e.g. traitors, jesters, and losing unlynched scum in White Flag. So why do endgamed townies have to be explicitly dead, and what would be a concise definition for "endgamed"?
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #54 (isolation #8) » Wed May 08, 2019 3:56 am

Post by BNL »

In post 51, Varsoon wrote:1. There is no time between. Being 'endgamed' just means that the conclusion of victory for Mafia is inevitable, and so the game is ended as if that victory had been achieved.
Yes, there is. Townies don't automatically and immediately die due to inevitably being fated to die.
To be clear, I'm talking about the game timeline, not the real life timeline.
The major hiccup in considering end-gamed players 'dead' is when certain abilities trigger on death that could prevent a mafia auto-success. Games that are designed well (Mafia wincons being based on flat ratios rather than 'killing all the town' helps) do not run into this problem.
If the players have on death effects that prevent Mafia from winning, the game shouldn't end there and still needs to be played out. If town has already lost, either because the wincon is 50% or they were the last townie, the Mafia have already won and there is no need to play that effect out.

If you need to trigger on-death effects based on townies being endgamed, you're probably modding it wrong.


Oh, and the fact that Survivor can win with Mafia is proof that endgame townies are considered alive, or the role wouldn't make sense.
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #55 (isolation #9) » Wed May 08, 2019 3:57 am

Post by BNL »

In post 52, Varsoon wrote:The definition for end-gamed that I've settled on and accepted: The result of a game-state where the non-mafia players are unable to, through their votes and roles alone, eliminate the mafia faction--all non-mafia players are killed in order to reflect the inevitable outcome of the game.
Why do the non-mafia players need to die to symbolize that the Mafia have won? Especially in the case when the Mafia are not able to fully eliminate them, in which case the fast forward analogy does not even apply.
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #57 (isolation #10) » Wed May 08, 2019 5:20 am

Post by BNL »

The survivor wins because he is alive at the end of the game, just like the townies which the Mafia haven't killed yet.

I don't know what else to say, it's just extremely intuitive for me that townies who haven't actually died yet are not actually dead.
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
User avatar
BNL
BNL
Micro Madness
User avatar
User avatar
BNL
Micro Madness
Micro Madness
Posts: 3338
Joined: September 15, 2015
Location: EDT+12

Post Post #59 (isolation #11) » Wed May 08, 2019 5:26 am

Post by BNL »

I don't think anything anyone says here is going to convince me.

I just really want people to understand my perspective: I see that once an outcome is determined, the game is permanently paused and called, without being actually played out.

I see the end of game as the state the game was in when the game was called, not what the game would have been if it was played out.

Do you, or anyone in the thread, even understand what I'm saying here, and my perspective on what the end of the game is?

Because I don't see myself being convinced that endgamed players are dead, ever, without the assurance that people know what I see as the end of the game.


Maybe it'll be a bit clearer if there was a distinction between "end of the game" and "endgame"
GTKAS - BNL

Busy, on indefinite V/LA. May return April 2020
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”