Mini 2052: Downtown Train Mafia - Game Over!

[Darth Vader]

Brassherald..... I'm not your father

VOTE: brassherald

-d

[Darth Vader]

VOTE: Allomancer

Choo-choo!
(Hehe)

~A

[Darth Vader]

i can already tell this i'm going to struggle this game given my relative unfamiliarity with the playerlist.

@dva and auro

, i would appreciate both/either of you being active and helping me out this game, if you're town.

Yeah, I've no completed experience with anyone here except... Bambi.

Disagree with RCE's post about how building up a wagon quick is scum-indicative. Wagons are good, so an argument can be made that it's pro-town to put someone close to lynch range early -- thus, Bambi's L-2 vote should be NAI.

Allegations that it's Bambi bussing Allo are wild, and that Bambi placed his scumbuddy at L-2 cos "distracting away from the person at L-2" is really tinfoily.

Starting a new wagon when someone was placed at L-2 seems a little bit premature IMO, so here's a really early FoS at TonyMontana.

@NSG: Why do you scumread Amor?

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

Very tinfoil-y does that make it untrue or implausible?

I also never said the wagon itself was scum-indicative, though what happened within it could be.

As plausible as you being buddies with Allo and placing a distancing vote initially.

@NSG: Yeah, the pop-in does feel slightly Wolfy.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

Tbh Allomancer's reaction to the wagon on him sounds pretty towny.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

Maybe. Probably don't use an rvs vote in that case, then tell everyone the plan.

Plus the seed would have already been subconsciously planted and I could have jumped to another wagon already.

You're describing possible plays *if* it was actually you distancing, but this still doesn't make it any less plausible IMO. Like if Jay and Allo were buddies, could've placed the RVS vote there in the first place too - anything is possible, but jumping to a conclusion that it's scum bussing is far-fetched.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

well, that's true – it's just that i'm somewhat confident that a playerlist having experience with each other is a massive benefit for town (and i think that that could be proven somehow, although i wouldn't know how). at the very least, i obviously find it a lot easier to sort players who i've played with before, and it's usually easier for me as well when other players can sort me as town easily.

I've heard you're an easily sortable player - are you aware of what makes people townsort you easily?

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

I'm also describing why it isn't optimal in my position. The Jay and Allo thing is exactly what I was saying. If I'm not evaluating possible scum interactions what should I be evaluating at this point?

Do you scumread me for my reads? If not why is it your main source of attention?

My fundamental disagreement here is that it's a lot more tinfoily to make double accusations and thus a less accurate method of scumhunting, at the same time being easier to fake believably.

Of course, I can't prove that, and I'm absolutely trying to sort you through this interaction, if that's what you're asking. On a surface-level your reads feel scummy; but I'm trying to probe through your own thought processes here and explore them.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

from what i've got from other's it's "activity and depth of thought", both of which apparently aren't really there (or are there in less presence than in my towngames) when i'm scum.

if you're really interested, my wiki is fully up to date right now.

Right. I did a really quick check and your last two scumgames you survived and won. Could you describe what went wrong in town's sorting of you then?

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

As a by product? You haven't asked anything that leads me to believe you're reading my motivation. Feels more like picking apart why X can't be true or Y isn't possible.

I'm doing exactly that by calling out why X/Y is tinfoily/unlikely/whatever and making you defend against it, while noting the fundamental disagreement we're sharing expecting a response on it.

"Why are you doing X? I think it's wrong" is functionally equivalent to "Hey, you're doing X and I think it's wrong".

Anyway - do you actually believe that reading off interactions through a W-W lens is actually more efficient than gauging individual scum equities?

~Auro

@mod, apologies for the slip. Quoting here, please delete that post

Done ~ LA

[Darth Vader]

807's town was entirely newbies after the one experienced player who wasn't scum replaced out, so i was able to get away with playing a pretty weak game (and i think a townie voted early in lylo or something)

taz mafia just had a lot of scummy townies – i wasn't really townread at all that game, i just survived to endgame from others being lynched before me and something of a throw by a townie in endgame despite everyone wanting me lynched

Ah, thanks.

DVa's a lot more experienced than me, I suppose your slot should be self-sorting as we get through the game then.

Regarding Allo, from scum I'd expect a harsher reaction to the wagoning on him, and his reaction seems more clueless-townie than scummy. Although he has a 2016 join date, only 144 posts in all, so that's indicative of someone who hasn't played Mafia much.

What do you make of Amor's recent posts?

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

Tbh Allomancer's reaction to the wagon on him sounds pretty towny.

~Auro

what? I don't see it -D

[Darth Vader]

I was doing exactly that when explaining my qualms with Bambi. I didn't have a read on Allomancers slot until Bambi's vote because I asked myself what a town!Bambi vote would mean and why and then did the same with Scum!Bambi.

Bambi's individual scum equity related directly with Allomancer in my opinion.

Town!Bambi could vote there because wagons, because reactions. It's a pretty generic action to bring someone to L-2.

Scum!Bambi could also vote there because it's a generic move, and thus no real harm to do as scum.

I still can't see why bussing is any more probable here. Anyway, aside from that - If your read on Allo is informed by Jay being scum voting there, why would you vote Allo over Jay?

If I'm assuming 2 scum in a 10 person game then 1 in 5 slots is scum. Chances are on a wagon of 4 people (myself, Darth, Robert, Bambi) with the wagonee included there is at least 1 scum in that grouping. Bambi's vote stuck out to me as the scummiest.

This sounds like you're explaining the obvious. Of course if you take any random set of 4-5 players there's prolly scum in there, statistically. The last statement about Jay's vote being scummy is independent of that. Feels empty.

It's a wagon that likely won't go anywhere. Since town will be hesitant to force a claim. No one should be claiming btw, given the scum win con. Anyway, if it's a wagon that isn't going anywhere then there isn't much incentive for scum to join the wagon aside from distancing.

We will have to lynch someone, so tell me the disadvantage of claiming at L-1 with intent? I don't see how claiming at ITH is detrimental.
Why wouldn't the wagon go anywhere? I'm feeling your thought process here is:
1. Claiming at any time is bad;
2. Wagons are useless because of (1);
3. Scum believes (1) & (2);
4. Scum hence wouldn't wagon unless they're bussing.

Am I right?

-A

[Darth Vader]

We don't know how many crewmembers there are. Every claim gets scum closer to their wincon but doesn't get town closer to ours. Of 10 slots scum only have to hunt down in what I assume is 8 slots. I just think any claims are antitown except in endgame situations.

At L-1 with intent, whatever slot's

going to be lynched anyway

.
So the crew member claims, and your worry is that scum kills them in the night.
But if they

don't

claim and we lynch them, they die anyway.
Which means we don't get a scumlynch that day, and scum aren't gated to that nightkill and we sure-fire lose town that night.
Obviously they should claim if they're about to be hammered.

I literally voted Allo to start the game. I don't start the game with the knowledge of who scum is so that's a rather silly question. If you are asking why I didn't move my vote to Jay it's because I think both Allo and Jay are scum. Still a silly question, my stance is pretty clear.

Jay's position on the wagon made you think Jay's scummily associated to Allo.
If X does something that's indicative of X being scumbuddies with Y, I assert it's better to lynch X first and not Y.
Besides, you haven't answered whether my read of your thought process was right.
If it is, then it's very far-fetched/wonky and I'm placing a FoS on your slot.

Moving our vote to TonyMontana, for reasons I've stated earlier.
VOTE: TonyMontana

[Darth Vader]

Are you still believing claims are *always* detrimental to town? Do you agree with me that L-1 ITH claims are necessary?

I'm picking at your thought process WRT Jay-Allo.
Jay did something that you believe scum would do, and it seems more logical that when someone does something that looks like scum-scum to another, it makes more sense to vote the first. Meh, I'm not able to articulate exactly how, I'll leave it at that.

I'm early-sorting Allo as town, yes.
My vote on Tony is because I find his reaction to the L-2 premature, independent of Allo's alignment.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

But not Robert jumping ship at L-2?

Oh, I didn't catch that.
I went back and read up the context there; his unvoting doesn't feel scummy -- given his reaction was something like "Woah, never expected this to wagon so fast".

I still maintain any claim is antitown.

Hmm. Okay.

If the read on Jay was independent of Allow may agree and probably would have moved the vote. The two are intertwined in my mind. I understand I could be wrong in my assumption but that doesn't make either slot more or less likely to be town or scum.

Apart from Allo-Jay, are there other slots pinging you?

[Darth Vader]

Darth has been pretty adamant in defending you to be honest, albeit not directly.

Eh, I was attacking your attack, not defending Bambi, if that makes sense.
Didn't like Bambi's own reaction to the attacks on him, and his recent posts are pretty scummy.
I'll go as far as to say that Jay's behaviour is probably within townrange, but this is a slot I'd like to have lynched today anyway.

VOTE: Bambi Jay

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

@Jay: You believe there are two scum; if three of us are voting for you on the same point, at least one of us it town making that point, right?

So... Reconsider?

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

and let's flip this around: what is the case for bambi being scum? that she's "not playing the game"?

Refusal to play the game is a case, yeah. I see your point about him having fun or not, but I don't think even scum!him would have fun being wagoned and near lynched.

I wasn't too worried about the wagon since it was more of a threat to make Jay play the game, and Brass wouldn't ITH without everyone else chiming first. Something he said which I prolly shouldn't discuss makes me believe he's town, however.

If Jay's town I think TGP's vote there is most suspect.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

It's the absurd big font that you do.

Has he done it *only* in scum games, and not in his town games?
And if he's only done it ever once as scum, this isn't a good meta-case.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

Towning Allomancer for reasons I've stated previously, though I'm open to changing my mind there.
Townleaning NSG and RCE, and BrassHerald for reasons.

This leaves Amor, TonyMontana, TheGoldenParadox, Bambi Jay and Robert2424.

I'm interested in sorts/cases on Amor and Robert2424 at the moment, their ISOs aren't leaving me with anything.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

if you're town you should know better than to present the false dichotomy of absolutely no mention of brass' alignment at all and that type of screaming.

Yep, this struck out to me, too.

~A

[Darth Vader]

Sad the town literally had all the energy in the world to try and mob-Lynch me but suddenly when it's TGP's turn your all quiet.

Glad to know where the motivation is here.

Ah, thought I voted there previously.
VOTE: TGP

~A

[Darth Vader]

I'm still here. I'm not really feeling the TGP wagon -- he seems to be making an effort, and his votes are largely in line with my suspicions. Waiting to see what Munch has to say, because I did not have a good feeling about that slot when Tony was in it.

That effort looks more like scum effort though.
Can you elaborate again on your suspicions, in detail? Do you disagree with NSG's meta on Jay?

~A

[Darth Vader]

Munch's list on replacing in seems good on the whole, feeling a lot better about her than Tony. But I don't agree that brass's ITH was that scummy.

Auro feels a bit more strongly on town Allo than I do but I agree with him that TGP is the path for today. -D

[Darth Vader]

I haven't site flaked but I've been letting Auro stay in front.

I actually like this wagon right now and mostly just want to push it through, maybe with RCE and Munch? -D

[Darth Vader]

Moreso than Amor or Allo, right now -D

[Darth Vader]

Eh sorry, I've not been posting much in all of my games, sorta lost motivation in general :$ I'll make more of an effort.

Wanted this to be a teaching Hydra initially so DVa took the backseat and let me post and call the shots mostly, but yeah I think it makes sense if she lays down her opinions directly in the thread as well.

I'll read the game and get back into it soon

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

Makes a case on me a few posts earlier, votes Bambi with no reasoning attached.
If scum can always replicate a town game, scumhunting would therefore be useless? Bad logic is bad.

His assertion is that scumhunting purely reliant on meta isn't quite useful, not scumhunting as a whole. You're misinterpreting his logic here.

Wants to lynch me, still voting Bambi at this point.

He transparently, repeatedly says he wants to lynch you, he voted Bambi Jay because there was a wagon there and the others weren't up for voting Allomancer.

This change your mind?

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

I think you have way too many townreads though. Is Munch a PoE for you?

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

I know it's in your ISO, but for the sake of clarity could you just list reasons for your townreads concisely in a single post? I'll do that too in a while, I do feel TGP/Munch is too easy a solve

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

shh don't tell Auro -D

[Darth Vader]

~Roar~

Game's moving so slowly, geez. I remember liking Munch's reads list but the abscence is sorta concerning tbh. Meh

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

Unvote

Bambi's behaviour is pretty bizarre for both scum and town, I still lean scum, but I would like to hear from Tony, Robert and Auro (if he's still around) before hammer.

It seems worth noting that someone has come into the same slot as Tony and then also kind of disappeared.

So where are you at now, Amor? I guess the mod thinks you're still voting Bambi, but after 307 I'm a bit surprised you didn't go onto Munch. Who is your top scumread now? -d

[Darth Vader]

NSG, how are you and brass? Would he ask you to 'come back' as scum? Just thinking about this post-

Spoiler:

Remember when NSG was here and making good observations?

I wish she came back, is what I'm saying.

Also, TonyMontana could do more obvscum stuff and be a pal like that.

Amor could engineer (Eh?) a return as well, but did TGP ever expand on that read, I don't remember and I'm not going to check right now.

I remember at the time townleaning him for this thought process -d

[Darth Vader]

Spoiler:

VOTE: Robert2424

Don't post if you're not going to contribute to the game. Most of your posts are unproductive.

Looked at TGP's iso and I don't see anything wrong with it

Looked at TGP's iso and I don't see anything wrong with it

Let's try another approach, what do you see in it that is Towny?

I still want this.

I think 164 makes a case.
I see nothing inherently scummy about the big L-1. If anything, it's good to let the town know when we get to that point.

Brass- Did not like that ITH. Asks a lot- why do you scumread that guy, why did you do that, post some analysis - but didn't see him provide any answers or analysis.

I disagree. Asking questions is actually very beneficial to town. Brass is one of the towniest here IMO.

VOTE: Robert2424

Okay, I'm rescinding my (much earlier) townlean on Allo here.
There's a consistent pattern of Allo discrediting major wagons throughout the day without any *real* reasons. He continues making vanity votes (RCE, Robert) without really making an effort to shift pressure onto those slots; I get the feeling he's making up reasons to have his vote in unproductive places to keep the gamestate from gaining momentum anywhere / deflect attention away from a wagoned scumbuddy.

There are other red flags in his ISO (shade on Bambi and refusal to vote; unproductive posts that don't advance the gamestate etc.) that others have pointed out too, but I think this should be a good lynch for today, and DVa agrees with me on this too.

VOTE: Allomancer

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

(expired on 2019-01-23 21:58:19)

here you go brass -d

[Darth Vader]

it's not that i don't think you're capable of it – i think most any player would be capable of it. i guess it's that i don't think it'd be your go-to strategy.

There's also that it's possible for one of the wagons to be on his scumbuddy, as I did note.

Intent to hammer

-A

[Darth Vader]

I'll only be around for an hour or so, have to sleep - I'll set an alarm to hammer in case there isn't one by the deadline. DVa's temporarily VLA

-A

[Darth Vader]

Oh wait it's at L-2, checked just now. Misread.
Make sure to hammer before the deadline, guys.

VOTE: TGP

-A

[Darth Vader]

Robert and RCE were my strongest scumreads yesterday. RCE turned out to be town, so I made a mistake there. In any case,
VOTE: Robert

Interesting that one of your scumreads flipping town isn't making you reconsider on your other scumread, and you immediately place a vote there.
Also interesting that the person scumreading you the most is dead now, and you almost immediately comment on it.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

RC was thrown out the train (Mafia hijackers) so someone being shot dead is... Via Vigilante or Serial Killer?

Who the hell would shoot Munch? I forgot they were even in the game.

More importantly, scum killed 1 of the 4 people who jumped on my wagon along with us hanging TGP. Something seems off.

Our win-cons say we win when all train thieves are killed with 1 passenger/crewman alive; this suggests Vig and not a third-party, right?
I think Munch was shot because of precisely that - the lurking. Now that we know a vig exists, do we vote for a vig shot?
What seems off to you?

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

NSG has posted elsewhere on site right? Wasn't there a thing where she tends to rep out as scum? Never actually seen it confirmed and I'm pretty sure Auro was kinda tring her tho, I'll have to check what he thinks about this

-d

[Darth Vader]

I'm retracting my earlier reasons for NSG's townread - if she's back, I think she has explaining to do about that specific thing I told you about.

I don't think her lurking is scum-indicative *yet* considering everyone seems to be. If she's replacing out herself and not being replaced for inactivity it's probs a scum-tell though AFAIK.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

VOTE: Allomancer

Anyone feel this is a bad lynch today?

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

While I don't think multiball is outside the realm of possibility for a mini theme, given the existing flips (low power) and the flavor of the setup, I want to say SK feels really unlikely here.

I'm lowkey surprised that the vig is the one with the gun and the scum are the ones throwing people off the train, I kinda was debating with Auro that the scum would be the one with the gun, but I guess he wins that round because I believe brass here.

-d

[Darth Vader]

What makes Allo a bad lynch suddenly? I'm not seeing anything particularly town from his last posts.

I didn't notice something which I should've at the time - that it's only 4 to lynch and CL put him at L-1; is it that?

[Darth Vader]

First off: Allo, reference the point where he put you at L-1 and being the 3rd vote please so I know you aren't jackshit, pretty plz.

The post/votecount is literally in the previous page. It's not like this game's buried in pages upon pages of spamposts.

I'm not sure about the 'opportunism'. I didn't really notice it was just 4 to lynch either, and Allo is definitely not a townread of mine, so I can actually see CL's vote coming from town. I still hold that Allo is the best lynch today - if Allo's town I'd definitely reconsider CL.

~A

[Darth Vader]

because i'm town?

can someone hammer this please?

-d

[Darth Vader]

Because this day is getting really boring

-d

[Darth Vader]

You think CL and Allo are TvT? Why start a new wagon now?

[Darth Vader]

I was scumreading Bambi much earlier in game, and NSG's meta-townread got me to retract that. Can you go into detail about what makes you think I'm scum, and Bambi too?

I'd much rather we lynch Allo atm, but the game's stagnating (which my slot contributed to as well, sorry bout that) and having this much time just allows scum to swing wagons off themselves. I don't mind voting Jay.

VOTE: Bambi Jay,

L-1

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

Oh, shit. Sorry >.> Been really invested elsewhere and my other head never really townread the slot so I thought I could take initiative, I keep mixing up the number of people required to lynch. Incidentally this is the second time I'm making this mistake - Chateau Lobby put Allo at L-1 and I felt it wasn't opportunistic because I was mixing stuff up here as well.

On the other hand DVa thinks it's not a total loss, since long deadlines very much favor scum (since you can easily shake off the wagon on you with time) especially in this gamestate as I argued, so if Bambi Jay flips scum the accidental hammer would've been great in retrospect. I feel like PvtUrist's accusation that this is a bus is pretty lazy -- why the hell would I quickhammer my scumpartner when I could easily divert the wagon, ALSO when I was happy with Bambi being near-lynched D1? If Bambi flips scum my slot should be conftown, because that's such a stupid strategy for me to have taken as scum.

~Auro

[Darth Vader]

NAI? In what world is yolo bussing to hammer a good strategy here? You think I'm scum who seriously would've gone "Yo Bambi, I'll just hammer you, even though we have so much time remaining and we can divert the wagon elsewhere"? Or that I accidentally hammered him while trying to make it look like a bus?

[Darth Vader]

That's a very bookish and surface-level method of evaluating my slot, devoid of context. Your accusation is that we're scum together - SCUM quickhammering SCUM is an entirely different context from scum hammering town.

Your theory would've held more weight if you believed my hammer on a scumbuddy was accidental, I meant to put him at L-1 but accidentally hammered - but as scum I'm not sloppy like this, I'm very calculated.

When Bambi flips scum, you should townread my slot and focus on the actual scummy slots.

[Darth Vader]

Yes; a complete lack of context makes it look scummy on a surface level, that much is obvious and I admit.

Add in the first contextual cue, that it was an accident *which* is not beyond my capability (which I offered evidence to prove) - and it's not as scummy, unless you believe I'm lying. Then the second bit of context if Bambi flips scum - the theory that {DV, Bambi} is a scumpair is ridiculous if you believe I deliberately quickhammered, and unless you convince me that bussing in this context was a good move, it should point to us being town.

[Darth Vader]

But you
Have
To evaluate
Probabilities

Although
Maybe I
Am playing a huge
WIFOM stunt

[Darth Vader]

Everything is
WIFOM

Everyone is
Scum
Except me
Of course

[Darth Vader]

Love me
Some
Good ol'
Twilight banter
Lulz

[Darth Vader]

It's cute how you're trying to frame me as your scum partner in Twilight, Bambi Jay.

Mass Claiming is *horrendously* anti-town.

[Darth Vader]

If you want town to lynch me anyway, why massclaim?

[Darth Vader]

You know I'm town, so you're making a ridiculous suggestion - that people massclaim, after you flip scum so that your scumbuddy can kill whoever else is crew.

[Darth Vader]

My hammer was accidental. No regrets right now. I wouldn't have required to yolo hammer to get you lynched, Jay, and you know that.

[Darth Vader]

VOTE: DV for luck

Omgus! VOTE: PvtUrist

[Darth Vader]

making yourself an easy target

"Easy target" for scum to push a mislynch on, cause I'm town?

[Darth Vader]

"Suddenly" came out because... PvtUrist scumread me ALONG with you? And my my favorite pick for what to do next, was to quickhammer you instead of letting the game go on?

[Darth Vader]

My early townplay is sorta meh, anyway. I get a lot more solvey and active as the game progresses.

Again, the quickhammer was *an accident*.

[Darth Vader]

What sorta logic is that? My question was asking if YOU seriously believed that. That I was scum trying to quickhammer. I didn't know it was a hammer, IN REALITY.

[Darth Vader]

DV dies tomorrow no matter what.

If Jay is town here, assuming 2 scum this means a town loss tomorrow if you lynch me. Think about it.

[Darth Vader]

Darth Vader made the rookie mistake of trying to kill town to silence the day when the Mod was asleep. Clearly he expected this day to end before I got back online.

If I was really engineering a quickhammer, I would've PM'd the mod to make sure she was online before committing it. Obviously.

What you said is more indicative of me being town.

[Darth Vader]

fuck off

Sure, if we can lynch scum instead.

[Darth Vader]

No, it means you were stupid and did it while she slept.

Why would I make suuuuuch a huge move while she's asleep, without consulting her? Wouldn't you think if I'm hydra-ing with DVa I'd prolly ask her before doing something in the first place?

[Darth Vader]

There was literally like two posts between the vote count and the hammer. No way that was an accident. I'm fine with a DV Lynch tomorroe

It was. I misread things. Go back in my ISO and see that I didn't scumread Chateau Lobby for the L-1s: because I myself was getting things mixed up.

Also, the last sentence sounds scummy.

[Darth Vader]

Did you like our avi?

Our hope was that you couldn't bring it in you to kill something so beautiful