Mini Normal 2046: Autumn's Farewell [Endgame]

[Varsoon]

I don't think RVS or RQS suck, I just think that people use RVS as an excuse to not have to be held accountable for their early play.
VOTE: OkaPoka

But why are you dropping a thick text block theorycrafting instead of addressing the fact we've got a wagon at L-3?

[Varsoon]

I don't think RVS or RQS suck, I just think that people use RVS as an excuse to not have to be held accountable for their early play.
VOTE: OkaPoka

But why are you dropping a thick text block theorycrafting instead of addressing the fact we've got a wagon at L-3?

Do you think scum or town or both alignments do that? Is it a person thing or an alignment thing? Why do you think people act this way?

I don't feel like I need to address the wagon? It exists, great. But nothing has been said so far that makes me feel like I can make a judgement call on someone's alignment. L-3 isn't L-1.

I think both alignments do it and it's a site-meta thing.

I think that it's a nice bit for a thread on the General Mafia Discussion forums and really doesn't have much place here, given we're already out of RVS.
Please engage with the game at hand.

VOTE: YyottaCat
Alright now it's L-2.
What do you think of the wagon and the players voting it, OkaPoka?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Oka Poka
Very fine with this.

[Varsoon]

I'm with mbaki on this.
If you want to have a theory thread, do that in General Mafia Discussion.
Otherwise, please engage with the game at hand.
The more you give excuses not to, the more suspicious it makes me of you.

If you want to establish some baseline to read players from, look at their previous games. Asking them, in a game thread, to answer one way, allows them to be duplicitous in their responses and stay consistent with the self they want to project, meaning that it's likely a useless endeavor.

Even if you understood my fundamental means of thinking of the game, I don't think that would help you solve my alignment, as my play is vastly different based on role, players present, and other contexts.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: DrDolittle

Also a good vote.
I don't like how this guy's playing.
Feels opportunistic.

[Varsoon]

That's what I'm saying.
He's specifically taking this vanity wagon and also downplaying a different one.
Feels like a very weird and noncommittal thing to do.
Like if he's so sure he's got scum and this other person isn't scum
You'd think there'd be some justifications for that or some sort of indication in his interactions
But it's not
It's just like an excuse to put himself in a position that looks informed when it isn't
Maybe that's not opportunistic, but I see it as kinda exploitative of the current situation.

[Varsoon]

Wow Varsoon you are brilliantly on point wow

Sounds like a response from scum that's blown out that they got caught so easily.

But for real
Explain your reads?

[Varsoon]

Nero obv-towns every game I've been with him or he gets lynched real fast.
It ain't Nero.

[Varsoon]

I think he's more town than not right now.
He'll become more obvious as the game goes on, too.
As for the rest of you folks
Eh.
I don't have that kinda experience.

[Varsoon]

Woah, woah, woah.
Slow down.
A player of my caliber?
What informs this?

Also, I don't see how you get off playing the 'Varsoon is experienced' card while also casting my postulation that 'Nero sorts himself out' as pocketing rather than me just sharing meta experience.

As for my YYotta vote, that was never a serious vote and was only meant to highlight Oka talking out of their ass.

[Varsoon]

@Mbaki: So you're retracting that I'm a high-caliber player?
I'm hurt ;p

[Varsoon]

In that I was once a creature of the sea?
What do you mean, OkaPoka?

[Varsoon]

I'm familiar with the guy
I just don't see the connection?

[Varsoon]

I guess we'll see.

Do you typically scumread people who fence-sit?
Do you hate people who can't give a straight yes or no?
Do you like 1v1ing people?

I typically scumread people I don't like.
I don't hate anyone, really--but I don't like when people are furtive about a position they hold.
1v1s can be exhausting but I get caught up in them a lot because I get passionate about my reads and conf-bias into my own reads confidence a lot.

[Varsoon]

It's a good think we can judge you based off your play in this game, then.

[Varsoon]

anyone want to help me get caught up? Is YyottaCat still the best lynch?

Dude it's a 14 page game
Even if you had to read literally all 341 others posts again, that'd take, what, 20 minutes?

VOTE: Bright Eyed Fish

Lolcatchmeup bruv

[Varsoon]

Not even a name that registers to me.
What's Suka's offense?

[Varsoon]

It's because we're scumbuddies openwolfing and clearly colluding to get you turbo lynched.
Definitely not because your play has been questionable and you're asking people for a catchup on PAGE 14 in a MINI
Which reeks of you wanting to sheep something easy
And here you are
voting Suka
Who guessed.

[Varsoon]

friendly reminder that drdolittle is scum

Yeah, he's my third teammate. My earlier stunt was just distancing with him. I'm probably not going to return to any more meaningful interactions with his slot since I coached him into ghosting to alleviate pressure while town imploded.

[Varsoon]

On the real though I would be fine with a BEF or DrDo lynch.

[Varsoon]

When you've only got 6 pages to catch up on, it seems a lot like you're asking for someone else to give you something easy to follow and, should it turn out poorly for town, you can just claim you were aimless and following that person.

There's a reason why high confidence gets townreads.

[Varsoon]

Nah. Bullying is bullying.
Confidence is confidence.
Bullying can be confident, but that's neither here nor there.

[Varsoon]

It might be that I'm being critical of something you feel isn't an issue.
I don't understand why you'd ask for help on a catchup when your last post before that was only 6 pages out.
Why not just read those pages?
If you wanted to ask a specific player about their thoughts/reads/reactions to the last few pages, you could have done that, too.

[Varsoon]

I just caught a sign-up ban for abusive posting; I'd appreciate it if we could tool our rhetoric towards game-indicative rhetoric (pushing, being critical of, etc.) rather than personal rhetoric (bullying, attacking, etc.) so that we can firmly ground this as a game-related exchange.

[Varsoon]

I don't think asking for a catchup is scum-indicative, I just want to see how'd you respond and what your justifications are, which helps me draw a bit more of a bead on how you play, given I don't have much meta experience with you.

VOTE: Dr Dolitte
I do think this doctor has done little.

[Varsoon]

i'd lynch like 5 other people before mbaki at this point, even though i think Nero is right his play isn't great i don't think the bar is very high right now

Who are these 5 mystery scummers?

[Varsoon]

Spiderverse was really good, probably one of my favorite animated movies ever made.

Also, some shit happened that's really soured me on playing mafia so I might just replace out here since I'm having trouble keeping up. :/

[Varsoon]

Oh hey I've been summoned.
What's up, guys?

[Varsoon]

Yeah, it's still DrDoLittle.
Pls lynch this.

[Varsoon]

Ideally, we lynch in DrDoLittle

Wow so vote it

[Varsoon]

Hey Creature
Who da scum is?

[Varsoon]

Okay, cool, just making sure.

[Varsoon]

*watches Varsoon posting elsewhere but not here*

Aint my fault if other threads are more interesting.
I've said my piece here.

*watches Varsoon posting elsewhere but not here*

Bright, Varsoon, & kmd. That's the scum.

Try again.

[Varsoon]

I'm voting DDL.
Dude showed up in the 13th hour to try to flounder resistance to his wagon but where he been all day?
I'm cool with this one.

[Varsoon]

That's cool.
Welcome back.

[Varsoon]

I've posted within prod range and have more posts than two other players in the game.

[Varsoon]

Why are you all jumping on Yyotta? Is it the low post count?
This game is hard for me to parse.
40 pages and no one's said anything of hard substance for me.
Why are you all so formless?

[Varsoon]

I'm a horribly reactionary player.
I need to improve on this.
I need to be more proactive.
Just sitting around and responding and waiting for something to catch my eye as THIS IS SCUM doesn't cut it in games like this.

[Varsoon]

We had DDL up to L-2, didn't we?
Anyway, what's the VC now?

[Varsoon]

Check.

[Varsoon]

By my count, it's hammered.
Why did we relent from DDL when he claimed VT at L-1?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Yyotta
Just to be sure, then.
It's an awful lynch, in my opinion.

[Varsoon]

It gives us nothing, imo.

[Varsoon]

That's what all flips do, though.
What I mean is that I wish the interactions with the wagon were more palpable.

[Varsoon]

I don't think it'll flip scum, though.
Getting a mislynch with low info is the worst outcome.

[Varsoon]

I don't have a read on Yyota.
I don't think I've had a single interaction on the slot.
I'd lean it more likely town than not given how other players have treated it, though.

[Varsoon]

I believe that means Vorkuta is town?

i think this means anyone rb suspected = town?

i think then this game can be on lock

VOTE: vorkuta

unless we can get a vig confirmation

Why ya'll actin like you don't know how traitor works.

@MOD: Can you explain how the role you just flipped works? kthx

Obv that scum killed RB and didn't realize he was their traitor
If RB didn't know his team's identities, then alignment conclusions can't really be drawn.
Even if he did, I don't think it matters all that much.

[Varsoon]

I've seen it iterated where Traitor doesn't know team and team knows there is a traitor but not who.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, I think mods not posting full role PMs and just relying on shorthand is confusing.
Especially since we don't have an agreed-upon nomenclature.
So when I see 'traitor' I just have to try to infer what that means and hope the mod's iteration is the same as the wiki's.

My thoughts are the same as ever. DDO's probably scum. Didn't BEF claim a guilty on you? What happened with that?

P-EDIT:

What's a Normal Rolecop?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Dr Do Little

Money,
Mouth,
etc.

[Varsoon]

It ain't Vorkuta either.

[Varsoon]

Damn Creature, go be a less mean pokemon again.

varsoon would u like to elaborate on ddl

Dude's scum, what's there to elaborate on?
B-sides, I don't have a ton of great leads otherwise.

[Varsoon]

Not a fan of Oka proposing a wagon on me with no supporting case and immediately testing the waters by defaulting to Nero
Have some damn gumption of your own, man.

[Varsoon]

@Oka: Gross.

@DDL: You need to do more to show how BEF is scum in this game.

[Varsoon]

@Oka: Testing validity instead of making a committing mistake is the sort of self-aware play scum makes.

[Varsoon]

Told you that Vork was a bad lynch.
How much longer until people listen to me?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: OkaPoka


FINALLY
SUPPORT FOR A WAGON I CAN DO

[Varsoon]

with the voyeur + traitor flips this is likely to be a game of little PR powers. does 1-shot neop make sense in this set up?

I think it's far less likely for single shot roles to exist in this game with the presence of voyeur, but I'm not about to spec 'cus mod WIFOM has screwed me in the past.

Regardless
Judge people based on their play rather than the contents of their claim.

[Varsoon]

I'm iffy on it.
Haven't loved the slot, but I'd rather lynch elsewhere.

[Varsoon]

Not really much, I guess.
I just get worse vibes from Oka and DDL.
The way they are present and how they interact with the game
It bothers me
I can't really articulate it

[Varsoon]

I think scum'd pull off if they knew it'd flip town, if only to avoid catching flak for being on it.

I didn't like their early play and their constant interaction in the thread doesn't feel, to me, like they're trying to figure out the game nearly as much as it's just them setting up whatever lynch works.

[Varsoon]

Seems like you're upset that I called ya out on what you did.

[Varsoon]

Seems like you're upset that I called ya out on what you did.

im really not. im more upset at how terrible of a player you are.

Ouch.
Guess you'll have to pull more of your weight and actually catch scum.
How's that one going for you?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: BEF

Aight then

[Varsoon]

Curious that there's so many people who seem to have scumreads on me,
yet I am kept alive, as if they want to lynch me closer to or in LYLO
and haven't wagoned me yet because they know I'll flip green and they'll catch shit for it
They're just waiting for a good time to pounce when I am lowest hanging and ripe
It's so painfully transparent.

[Varsoon]

"Varsoon is scummy"
And whatfor?
Dannflor's trash of "OH man Varsoon decried that wagon after joining it when it was at L+2"
Completely ignoring how I said the wagon was trash beforehand too
Whatever Dannflor
Keep scrambling for reasons
I'm sure you'll find a good one eventually.
If you're town, I'm sure someone else'll convince you to go all-in so you can catch the bad rap when it fails too.

[Varsoon]

Is 2023 supposed to be satire?

100% serious
But folks won't take me that way
S'all good.

[Varsoon]

All the other games I was in have ended so now I'll probably be more present here.
Maybe.
Sorry for low-efforting this.

[Varsoon]

There are a lot of "low hanging fruit" in this game. Or were, two of them were lynched already. But nice try on discrediting anyone who scum reads you without actually defending your play or doing actual scum hunting. All you did today was join a pointless Oka wagon, and then finally bus your buddy when you had no other option.

What makes you think that BEF is my buddy?
How does my vote on BEF look like a bus when I'm doing literally nothing to 'catch' him or get any townpoints from it?

Man, Dannflor, you either suck at this game or you're scum
VOTE: Dannflor

[Varsoon]

Town doesn't need to defend their play, bby
Das what scum do, homedawg.

@Mbaki: What if I told you that I intentionally played in a way to try to be in that position and it's sort of backfired?

[Varsoon]

Danny, boy, which one of us is scum? Is it DDL or BEF?
And why are you hard-dodging my questions about why you think BEF is scum with me and my vote there looks like a bus?
C'mon man
Focus up

[Varsoon]

I mean, I'll put it this way: I know you aren't somebody who's awful and/or despises scum like say Creature, so that isn't an explanation for your nonexistent play. The issue with that is why is it an issue now, in twilight after town has a big numbers edge?

I dunno, I'm kinda awful. I couldn't stop lynches on players I was pretty sure were town.
I'm probably not going to be able to nab scum this game, and even if I do or if I have, I won't have the charisma or casework to get enough others voting there.
At least that's how it feels.
Playing low effort in the first two days and not really retaining much info/being very involved has bit me in the ass because I couldn't tell you even the whole playerlist here.
I'm not in a great position and it's reminding me a lot of the Starcraft mafia loss that I just caught, where scum kept me alive the whole game because I wasn't a threat.
:/

[Varsoon]

I'mma be honest
I'm 100% scumreading you on gut, so it's a fairly low-confidence read, but it's still there.
I just kinda floated it to see if it'd catch on and the fact that the bites have been relatively low bothers me a little?
It does make me way of Danny, but maybe it is town to be like "Well scum's probably in one of them" but I think town might also entertain the notion of it as a TvT so I'm kinda not sure there either
Really not sure of a lot of things.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon's town. His recent posting clears that up in case rb's flip wasn't enough.

How does rb's flip look good for me again?

@Dunnflor: Wouldn't I want to be on the wagon early rather than late, in that case?
Also, is BEF lynched here? People have been using words like twilight and acting like the day is over
I'm not sure what the VC is

[Varsoon]

Fish is lynched, but North is not a mod that instalocks usually so we have time.

Have you read the full game Varsoon?

I've been skimming really hard.
So I've read it in the same way a college student has read the books they are assigned to read each week for an English class.

To articulate better, you said you had two people in mind you would rather lynch, and even minor traction on one of the wagons, and then just kinda shrugged and voted BEF instead, who you'd previously said you didn't want to lynch today.

Eh, saw the logic for BEF, wasn't a huge fan of the BEF claim (it doesn't line up with what I think is designed, but again, could be mod WIFOM)
And yeah
S'bout it
I'm now kinda worried it'll flip green and I'll break my streak of saying "Bad lynch" and the lynch being a bad lynch but we'll see.

[Varsoon]

Hey maybe don't hold your shot next time then?
Also don't fake limited shots?
Anyway, if you are town, I can't trust your judgment, since you've got me at the top of your scum list, which means you're not doing all so hot reading this game accurately.
So can you write all that stuff again but under the assumption I'm town?

[Varsoon]

Phones hate tables, in my experience.

VOTE: Creature

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:

I think we may be in LYLO

[Varsoon]

We should mass claim
I'm fairly certain we might be able to get a lynch in the right direction with that.

[Varsoon]

For some reason I'd thought we didn't hit scum yet and it was 7 alive with likely 3 scum left.
Still, I'm down for a massclaim.

[Varsoon]

I've got info that may or may not expose if someone is lying, so I should probably go last or near-last.

[Varsoon]

Mbaki can go first.

[Varsoon]

Aight then. DDL claim first.

[Varsoon]

@mbaki: I forgot rb flipped scum--there's likely just 2 alive.
Still think we should Mass claim today.

[Varsoon]

Last three should be mbaki, Creature, then me?

[Varsoon]

I will claim after you.
Much, much after you.
As in I will claim last.

I'd also appreciate it if you full-claimed instead of playing the 'I have info but for after everyone else claims teehee'
But ay whatever
I believe you.

You also shouldn't be floppin your vote like that.

[Varsoon]

Oka, I'll take that as a scum claim.

I'm not going to bend to your will.

[Varsoon]

Thanks for putting town within range for scum to quickhammer if they wanted, jackass.

[Varsoon]

Though if you're scum then I only have to worry about idiots fucking the game up because they trust nebulous bullshit over hard play.

[Varsoon]

I'd appreciate it if you'd tone it down.
Apologies for anything insensitive I've said already.

[Varsoon]

@Oka: It's a closed setup. Scum could be sitting on a vig. Anything's possible. I don't take those kinds of chances. You shouldn't, either.

[Varsoon]

Oh thank god

[Varsoon]

Anyway, since I'm being browbeaten here;
I will only claim after Creature claims.
Creature needs to claim next.

[Varsoon]

Unless varsoon is an IC, he's scum here.

I have no idea how you could hold this position unless you're scum.
And if I was an IC, I would've already triggered it.
Besides, isn't delayed-IC non-normal anyway?

[Varsoon]

Too bad I'm not.
Wow what an awesome conversation that goes nowhere.

[Varsoon]

I'm not caught and if you're planning on fake-claiming after me (which is pretty obvious because it should be evident your scumteam is cooked once town is proposing mass claims), it's painfully obvious.

You're talking really big for having literally no case against me.
Unvote.

[Varsoon]

Oka, you're trying to force a situation where town compromises its massclaim.

Unvote.

[Varsoon]

Creature always goes before me, no matter what.

[Varsoon]

I'm not going to get lynched because I'm town and it'll be painfully obvious post-claim.

Now unvote.

[Varsoon]

@Creature: Oka's demanding I go before him.
We could also popcorn to others. I dunno what the plan is.

[Varsoon]

Why does it matter if I unvote?

If scum decides to yoloquickhammer here, they would out themselves.

They can't win in this nightphase. They have no extra kills, that is not normal. 4v9 isn't possible.

The closer ANYONE is to lynch range, the easier it is for some stupid shit to happen that compromises us during or after massclaim and I'm not going to let this game be a loss because someone got a hard on for me.

[Varsoon]

I'm Town Universal Backup.
I inherited Nero's Town Voyeur role and used it on Creature on N3.

I'll hold my result until after everyone else has claimed.

Main reason I played very cautiously early on was because I didn't want to be killed but still wanted to be suspected enough to be kept around for a lynch.
I was hoping to get something good like cop but eeeh.

[Varsoon]

Well, I wanted to claim last and have Creature go right before me, but doing it this way means that now Creature's stuck to his claim instead of being able to lie about his role after I claim my result, if that makes sense.

[Varsoon]

Oh, my result was nothing.
No one visited Creature.

[Varsoon]

To be more specific, there were no actions performed on Creature.

[Varsoon]

It's why I scumread the 1-shot Neopolitan claim.
The interactions both the '1-shot' and 'Neopolitan' parts have with Universal Backup are so wonky, I didn't think it'd be a likely role to have.

[Varsoon]

Good logic there, KMD.

[Varsoon]

for some reason, both mbaki and oka's frustrations come off as forced to me in this phase.

[Varsoon]

Suka came right out and said I took no action before I claimed. That would have been a lie that would have been exposed had I taken an action. There's actually a world where someone could see no action as a townie action, although I'd disagree. That could easily be scum who didn't kill that night. Point is, claiming I took no action is risking a lie being exposed. I don't see it the other way around.

This line of logic is what I was saying was good.

[Varsoon]

Also, I think the claimed 'townie action' gambit is solid since it can catch those players in a lie.

[Varsoon]

Why do you think it's DDL over the claimed ascetic and commuter?

[Varsoon]

Eh, just wondering why you think otherwise is all.
Could be him, but I'm not sure.

[Varsoon]

We should probably look at the night kills and see if there's something to be gained from those.

[Varsoon]

You'd think that I'd be killed by now if DDL was scum, right?
Since I had such a hard-on for their lynch and, apparently, with rb's flip, I looked pretty town, right?

[Varsoon]

You don't think DDL would see me as a threat worth removing if he was scum and I was town?
Hm.

[Varsoon]

Damn, dude.
I guess it's true, though. I played in a way that'd make me very low priority to kill and that's on top of me being a shitter at this game.

[Varsoon]

@OkaPoka: If creature were to claim something that'd mess with results, like ascetic or commuter. I also wanted to claim LAST with Creature right before me so that EVERYONE would have their claimed results (if any, I figured there'd be at least 1 more because UNIVERSAL BACKUP) and then Creature could claim/manufacture a claim based on what was claimed, then I could slam him if it was out of what I had info about. All in all, not all that likely to catch scum (requires them lying in a specific way) but it's better than nothing.

It's annoying that you pushed me to claim earlier than last.

mbaki's latest post makes sense but also gives me real harsh vibes if scum's mbaki/creature, which is an arrangement that I feel makes some degree of sense.

P-EDIT:
@Oka: It's almost like I leveraged other actual reasons for both my absence and major return to the game in order to excuse the role-related reasons and look more natural so that I'd survive to this point and have maximum role-related info.

[Varsoon]

Wow it's like you're realizing now how shitty it was for you to insist I claim next
Surprise
It was shitty!

[Varsoon]

I don't see how it doesn't make sense.
I have a role where I visited Creature, which has functionality based on Creature's role/action followed by the actions others took.
I specifically wanted to claim last.
You're the one that pushed otherwise.
I have a role that is only good late-game because I have to have a night to inherit another role if one even flips.
I specifically played in a way that would maximize my survivability so that I could maximize the use of my role.

I also consistently opposed lynches on town, for what it's worth.

[Varsoon]

I was PLANNING on CLAIMING LAST and either someone MIGHT LIE about visiting creature or creature MIGHT LIE about not being able to be visited.
It's literally the best possible play for my role, from my perspective.
You shit that up. You should take responsibility. The fact you're still pushing me post-claim legitimately bothers me because you're either willing to compromise our chances at victory or you're scum here and I really don't want to do what I usually do, which is get really fucking pissed off, OMGUS you, and be wrong.

[Varsoon]

I think Suka's definitely town and one of Creature / Oka are scum based on claim/play.

[Varsoon]

I think it's much more likely one (if not both) in Creature / Oka

[Varsoon]

Yeah, s'why I think scum's one or the other.
It'd also be a cute fit with the scum rolecop traitor.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Creature

[Varsoon]

Creature as a scum commuter makes plenty of sense to me.
If he's town, there's no reason not to commute every single night, right?
But if he's scum, he commutes N1, sees RB's flip, goes "Oh shit I shouldn't have done that" and then stops commuting since it's clear there's no town vig to hide from.
Creature's play here aligns with what I expect from scum Creature, too.

[Varsoon]

To use the redacted part as means of wiggling out of a bad situation after other people claim?

[Varsoon]

How would that fool scum more than 2-shot with only one shot claimed as used on N1?

I also doubt limited shot roles exist with mine also in the setup.

[Varsoon]

See, that's the thing
I know my role is real.

BEF said they had a limited shot role and it turned out to be a lie
Round 2
I'm willing to bet the game on you lying, too--and you're lying scum here, too, because as town, you'd realize how much claiming a limited shot role would be disastrous and you'd have gone with the even/odd shot claim.

P-EDIT:
I'd inherit whatever shots were left, I imagine?

[Varsoon]

@mbaki: I dunno. Instinct says it's one of the VT claims and I'd lean it DDL first.

[Varsoon]

We need to compromise somewhere.
The fact there hasn't been makes me sure that one of the people being voted is very likely to be scum.

[Varsoon]

Perhaps even two?

[Varsoon]

Please do.
It's Creature, btw.
And if not, it's Mbaki or DDL.

[Varsoon]

If I had it my way, it'd be Creature, then Oka depending on how Creature flips.
If don't think they're both scum though.

[Varsoon]

Don't see town getting a commuter in this setup.

[Varsoon]

Commuter and Ascetic both do the same thing, ie make you untargetable by actions. Ergo, scumread them for their play, not their roles.

Real talk, are you scum?

Commuter makes you immune to EVERYTHING, including kills.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Oka

Yeah man I'm tired of people calling me stupid/retarded.

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:

Can we get a Votecount?

[Varsoon]

I still really think it's creature, but I'm also kinda done playing this game.

VOTE: mbaki

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:

shit dude, fuck me then, who's scum?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: DDL

Like literally I could give less of a shit how this goes

[Varsoon]

Sorry for making the game so awful for you
If you were so 'universal' town, why's there a wagon on you in the first place and why do you make me mad uncomfortable?

Anyway
I'm probably right about Creature but I'll take the L and say it's ya'lls fault for not listening to me
I gave you plenty of chances

[Varsoon]

Oka, if you're town, you're gonna have to come off this shit where you're insisting I'm scum
Like how the fuck am I to engage with that even?

Ya'll never cared to listen to me before and ya'll don't care to listen to me now but fuck it

[Varsoon]

Oka, just hammer DDL so day can end.

[Varsoon]

ok be honest with me here

you planned to do nothing this game because u were a universal backup?

Until I inherited something and got to use it, yeah.
I was also having trouble engaging with this game since I was in, like, 4 others at the same time
While working full time
While sicker than I've been all year
While catching a signup ban over something that's really made me not want to play mafia
But yeah if you wanna scumread me for it like Oka, be my guest?

we agree on that suka's town.

so the persons that remain is {me, mbaki, kmd, creature}

I know I'm town (take my word on this, or whatever see my flip and decide tomorrow). I townread kmd right now. So that leaves mbaki and creature.

I also think it's probably Mbaki Creature if you flip town.

VOTE: Creature

Can we just
Please
Lynch Creature?

[Varsoon]

@Oka: It's almost as if I literally wrote that people should be judged on their play rather than their claim
And holy shit it turned out I was RIGHT for a THIRD TIME and, when it comes to BEF, that I was RIGHT in TWO WAYS--both that the claim was false and that his play was town play
But no
Fuck me
Don't listen to me

P-EDIT:
Cool your jets, mbaki

[Varsoon]

His play, outside of the claim, felt like play more likely to come from town than scum.

[Varsoon]

If I didn't have the outside circumstances, I still would've been a less present early on, but I'd have paid more attention and been more informed to take charge right now. I also probably would've put my foot down and absolutely claimed last instead of bending to people like you.

If I was VT, I'd be much more active and vocal out the gate. I would've probably tunneled out on you or DDL D1.

[Varsoon]

Homedog, literally no one gives a shit what I have to say and no one has listened to me all game
So, yeah, if being like "Fuck this" at crunch time isn't a position to have, whatever.
I tried.
Ya'll just didn't ever give a damn about me trying.

[Varsoon]

See, that's the kinda shit that makes me not really care.

[Varsoon]

You want actual case for Creature:

He's been very vacant in-thread after initial high activity.
The second we're all at each other's throats, he ghosts. He knows when to not be around to avoid catching attention.
Look at how literally every slot other than me has positioned re: Creature. No one is putting him within their first 'solve'. That means he's in a comfy position and at least one of us (ie: Creature's partner) is trying to present a solve that doesn't bus out Creature.
Look at how he claimed. It's either Limited Shot Commuter or Non-Consecutive (OddNight/EvenNight) Commuter; but he also claimed to have commuted N1--that's the death warrant, really, in my eyes.
Why would a 2-shot commuter (What he claimed, but WIFOMed immediately) only commute N1? Doesn't make sense. Doesn't even make sense from a hypothetical town!Creature PoV, imo.
And if he is Odd Night then, why wouldn't he commute N3? My action result not failing indicates that not commuting N3 is true.
Then I've got the setup spec of it
You see
I don't think this setup was designed around kills failing
And to put in a limited commuter with a universal backup on the same side?
Don't think that's likely in the least.

So there you go. That's about all the 'casing' you'll get from me.
As far as actual play, I can't remember squat of Creature's positions, but a quick ISO shows D1 scumreads of his to be DDL, BEF, me, KMD--all folks who are here right now, minus BEF, who we lynched.
He acknowledged "The good known players (rb, Nero, Varsoon, Kmd) aren't doing much." and look who's turned up dead so far.

I just don't feel comfortable about him and his positioning, claim, and posting. If I'm wrong for once here, fuck it, I'll take that, but I think solving Creature puts us way closer to solving the game.

[Varsoon]

I'd prefer Creature, honestly.

[Varsoon]

Why Oka?

[Varsoon]

Ooof.
My guy.
BEF flipped town.

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon: I'm sorry if you've said already, but could you rank the order of your reads? I would like to brainstorm with you.

I don't even remember everyone in the game.
If I had to order it off of what I can recall right now it'd be:
TOWN:
You
KMD
DDL
Mbaki
Oka
Creature
:SCUM

Though DDL, Mbaki, and Oka are all kinda on the same line.
I think I proposed a pool earlier?
Regardless

Yeah

[Varsoon]

KMD's town 'cus I like him. Also, he didn't act when scum only had two people acting and they knew this setup had stuff like Voyeur in it so like
I think scum's more likely in someone who would feel comfortable acting

@Oka: Keep lying--I wanted to go last, with Creature right before me. You insisted otherwise. I still resent you for that.

[Varsoon]

We should mass claim
I'm fairly certain we might be able to get a lynch in the right direction with that.

Mbaki can go first.

Aight then. DDL claim first.

Last three should be mbaki, Creature, then me?

OH WOW IT'S LIKE OKA IS FULL OF SHIT

[Varsoon]

YEAH FUCK IT YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW, DICKWEED

VOTE: Oka Pooka

[Varsoon]

I reiterate; I'm done here
If Oka's town, the loss is on his ass
Dude had a thousand and one opportunities to not lie about how I wanted the massclaim to go down and a thousand and one chances to back the fuck off from me but he didn't

Eat rope.

[Varsoon]

I'm not listening to your shit; you insisted we not claim in a way that benefits town the most and I bent to that shit and you kept scumreading me even after it
Screw you.

[Varsoon]

Varsoon should never ask creature to go first if he voyeur'd creature.

He should have asked literally anyone else except creature. Raises chance of a catch.

Then you say shit like this but
I LITERALLY ASKED LITERALLY EVERYONE EXCEPT CREATURE TO GO FIRST, THEN CREATURE, THEN ME

[Varsoon]

So keep hard lying to try to push this garbage lynch, I'm out
I'm done

[Varsoon]

Thank you both. So, given that they did know that there was a traitor, then it justifies the argument that rb was signalling as he would think that his team were looking out for him. I think this heavily implicates you, mbaki.

Apologies for getting pissed earlier--I'd follow you on Mbaki, tbh.
We should have 1 day of leeway. Chances are you die tonight, so, really
I'm good with whatever.

UNVOTE:

[Varsoon]

Lots of hypotheticals, there, man.
"I would likely notice those crumbs"
Unless you didn't.
"RB townread me while scumreading town; why the fuck would I night kill him?"
I don't know, man, maybe you weren't around or just phoned in the NK, I don't have to come up with whatever machination it is.

All we can judge is people's play here.
What I am saying is that I can think of plenty reasons that fit why anyone in this playerlist, as scum, would make the kills they made and took the positions they took. Saying "Why would I" or "Why wouldn't I" is just a useless hypothetical argument.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Mbaki

I still think it's one of Creature/Oka with my chips on Creature but I'll follow.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Mbaki

I still think it's one of Creature/Oka with my chips on Creature but I'll follow.

Are you scumreading them because they voted you, or?

Based on claims, where the votes were earlier today (really do look at today's votecounts, it's wild, there's no consolidation and several points where someone was at L-2 or L-1), and play.

[Varsoon]

Why are you so defensive, Mbaki?
If you're town, you flip green, we get one more day to trounce scum, ez pz
It's hardly a throw since we're not in LYLO

[Varsoon]

If you could lay out things without getting frustrated, it'd help more.
I'm worried the kill spec is all WIFOM.

[Varsoon]

You should just present everything you understand to be true.
I think it could be DDL here, too. I don't know. I feel as though, if you were scum with Creature, as I've proposed before, it really behooves you to keep me around and lock into saying it's DDL/Oka as scum. Does that make sense?

[Varsoon]

It puts me in an awkward situation because the scum really is either Mbaki + Creature or Oka + DLL with KMD in either of those pools if KMD is scum.
That's also why I think going Creature then Oka nets us at least one scum and highly tilts who the last is.

[Varsoon]

You're wrong, Oka.
It really troubles me that you're chiefly concerned with just lynching me instead of trying to figure out who the last 2 scum are.

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:

Don't know if I'm currently voting or anything but I'd like to see what moongrass says.

I wish DDL, KMD, and Creature were more present.

[Varsoon]

I'd be most comfortable with a Creature lynch still, yes.

[Varsoon]

Please do. If you're town here, your absence is doing us no favors.

[Varsoon]

If you're so sure of Mbaki, I'll follow you there.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Mbaki

[Varsoon]

I'm going to hammer myself in 6 hours. Enjoy losing. Bye.

Why do you act like it's a loss when we've still got another day, if you're town?

That sort of response makes no sense to me.

[Varsoon]

A handful of newbie games, notably.

[Varsoon]

And take the site elitism with you, man.
Accuracy of reads is entirely based on content exchange, no matter how little or how much, though it's generally the case that when there is more, they're more accurate. You've probably just played far more 2 day games and the ones where people were right are memorable; it's like you claiming a shotgun is more accurate than a pistol because at least some of the shot will always hit the target.

Nonsense.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Oka

Told you we should've lynched Oka D1.
But ay
No one listens to me.

[Varsoon]

Yeah I was really hoping that I could afford to play bad until my role reveal but it turned out that only Nero really cranked out decent play.
:/

[Varsoon]

Already told you; I had all that stuff going on and I intentionally winged low activity on this game due to my role.
I literally sent the mod a PM when I got the Universal Backup role and said, "Oh cool, I have to play town enough to survive until someone useful dies, but not so town I get killed before then. Great."

I also don't have faith in ANY of ya'll, tbh.
I think scum could've quick-hammered my ass and gotten away with it with how weak ya'll've been playing this game.

On the real, if you think over-reactive and having questionable points = my scum game, then you're not really well-versed on my meta, man. Then again, maybe I would self-admittedly play like shit for the WIFOM card, but, eh, not against this userlist.

Try again?

[Varsoon]

Oka, it's cute, and I like it, but your efforts are in vain, dude.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Mbaki
Gonna continue to follow Moongrass here but ayy

[Varsoon]

Oka, are you this tilted as town or are you really tunneling me this hard to set up an inevitable 1v1 in LYLO?
Just curious.

[Varsoon]

You're either conf-biased town or scum willing to trade 1 for 1
I think most people are leaning the former because the latter would be a bit suicidal.

[Varsoon]

Whine whine whine
complain complain complain
Get over yourself and strive to be better.

[Varsoon]

I'm workin' on it.
This game was a stinker for me because I shied away from pushing what I should've early thanks to role concerns. Guess I had more faith in the setup than myself.

Anyway, you wanna vote Creature?
VOTE: Creature

[Varsoon]

Nah. Moongrass thinks Creature is town based on rolespec, iirc.
Not all that concerned.

[Varsoon]

And I also think that Moon also proposed Creature as a lynch for tomorrow, after you flip?
Regardless.

[Varsoon]

So we can pretty much rule out Moongrass and KMD, yeah?

This shouldn't be such an annoying solve.
Honestly,
Ay
Fuggit, man

VOTE: DDL

[Varsoon]

Alright, then let's start to solve down from there.
Obviously, I think I should be off the table.
Everyone thinks THEY shouldn't be the lynch, though, so let's instead try to compile what people's PoE is and also the likelihood for each person being scum and the casework against each.

[Varsoon]

I'm going to be very honest right now. I don't recall any of what was posted on D2 and most of what happened on D1.

[Varsoon]

UNVOTE:

What's our time left?

[Varsoon]

The general willingness people have to vote for DDL makes me unsure of it but he's also been fairly non-present. :/

[Varsoon]

Intent to what?

[Varsoon]

Wanted to think over things more but eh
VOTE: DDL
I don't think this is gonna flip scum, though.
I really think my solve is right.

[Varsoon]

Remind me what your solve is?

Creature, Oka, Mbaki, in that order.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Creature

Yeah you're right
Can we please just do my solve?

[Varsoon]

But I was votin you cus I'm fairly low confidence and I don't know for sure what's what and you did ping me early but like
I feel like I was kept alive specifically because someone wanted me to vote for you in LYLO.
So no thanks man

[Varsoon]

I don't think the ascetic was a fake claim
I think the town part might be but not the ascetic part.