Starcraft Mafia: 2 -- Game Over!

[Alchemist21]

Wow that was a fast confirmation phase.

VOTE: Michael Scott because The Office is not a personality trait.

[Alchemist21]

Oh Ari's actually playing this game. I'm used to seeing him as a mod. This'll be fun!

[Alchemist21]

Never again? What happened before?

[Alchemist21]

Does Chara post like this?

Almost.

[Alchemist21]

We're doing this because we think two players posting independently under the same slot harms the ability to scumhunt. We're avoiding any sort of schizophrenic posturing, hydra dissonance, disorganized/contradictory noise, which means you can treat us as if we aren't a hydra. This will make things easier for those who dislike or struggle with sorting hydras.

Stretch your minds a bit, break out the "hydra theory" box you're in, and maybe you'll realize that we're doing this for the town's benefit? We'd never limit ourselves like this as scum (before the game we discussed different ways we could abuse hydra mechanic if we were scum and this wasn't it).

-Shoshin & the worst (super redundant but I guess we'll keep signing for our slower-witted readers)

I can almost guarantee you that at some point you’re going to hold back from posting about something because your heads can’t agree and when someone asks the response is going to be a “we can’t agree” which is unreadable or your going to say what each head is thinking which nullifies the point of this unified voice thing you’re doing.

Plus for people who do meta-based reads it’s helpful to know which heads are making which posts.

[Alchemist21]

For those who are curious:

search.php?keywords=stretch&t=77970&sf=msgonly

vs

search.php?keywords=stretch&t=77242&sf=msgonly

Are there any games you’ve seen him do it as scum or is it just that you haven’t seen him do it as Town?

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, you're not such a bad dude after all.

Aww thank you!

[Alchemist21]

For those who are curious:

search.php?keywords=stretch&t=77970&sf=msgonly

vs

search.php?keywords=stretch&t=77242&sf=msgonly

Are there any games you’ve seen him do it as scum or is it just that you haven’t seen him do it as Town?

Oh I’m an idiot. That first game was linked to the other starcraft game. Let me look closer at it.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Shoshin and the worst

[Alchemist21]

Really? Thought I was like the 5th or 6th vote.

[Alchemist21]

I’m not sure Ari’s and Nancy’s vote counts but I’ll unvote just in case.

UNVOTE:

I’m keeping it there in spirit though.

[Alchemist21]

That's L-1 provided that Mephistophanes 39 is actually/still voting there.

I obviously would need to confer with Ari before hammering. I’m not sure they’re scum but their atttitude is definitely pissing me off. And they should knock it off, if they’re actually town here.

If this a temporary RVS gag or something than fine but I’m not cool with it.

It wouldn’t be a hammer if you did vote there. Your vote + my vote = L-1. So Shoshin and the worst are either L-2 or L-3 right now depending on whether your old vote counted.

[Alchemist21]

I hate to be anal about this but could you put down either a vote or unvote just in case the mod does count it?

[Alchemist21]

Thank you.

VOTE: Shoshin and the worst

[Alchemist21]

I’m voting you because of 105.

[Alchemist21]

I'm not feeling good about this wagon/lynch for the reasons people are pushing it.

Like half the votes don't seem serious, or serious for a really dumb reason. (@ProFlavor)

Unless they're being bussed as scum, I don't understand the lack of resistance other than their town with a town-led wagon.

And I don't see the benefit of STW-scum still keeping up the "we're one person" shtick if they do acquire this much opposition.

Yeah, I see that it can be unhelpful to town, but I'm not seeing how it's definitively scum here.

A lot of people just haven’t posted since this really started so I wouldn’t take a lack of resistance as telling right now.

[Alchemist21]

@Mod; Is there going to be a record of previous Days’ player list orders or do players have to manually keep track of previous orders?

[Alchemist21]

Then walk me through how 105 warranted your vote because it's plainly obvious that it wasn't factual.

Yes it wasn’t factual. They were just bs’ing a reason to not sign posts after people gave meta reasons as to why they should sign.

[Alchemist21]

Varsoon posted 2 links, one to Starcraft 1, where you encouraged everyone multiple times to “stretch their mind” and the second, to TAZ, where you didn’t do that even once.

That's a bad use of meta. There's nothing inherently scummy about that phrase. It just means "break out the box you're in," or "challenge your way of thinking," which are phrases I've definitely used before as town (e.g. in Laybrinth when discussing your reads).

For some background, I say "stretch your mind" quite often in my yoga teaching to shift how people relate to their mind/body during a practice. It's just a part of how I speak in real life contexts. I'd never thought to use it in the context of mafia until Starcraft 1 because I don't usually use the phrase in an intellectual context.

I was very happy with how it applied in Starcraft 1 and I couldn't even contain my excitement when Varsoon picked the phrase up. Yes, it's such a great phrase that even Varsoon (who doesn't seem to like me much) used the phrase himself in Starcraft 1, as TOWN. Point being, it has nothing to do with alignment. It's just a phrase with a useful meaning in the context of a mafia game. I intend to use it a lot more.

-the worst

Did... did he just purposely sign the post wrong?

[Alchemist21]

Signing with the actual hydra name is 100% taking the piss especially after it’s been explained why they should sign.

[Alchemist21]

Are you asking us or the hydra?

[Alchemist21]

I think mephisto giving outs makes them Town. Scum-to-Town wouldn’t give an out at all, and we know scum have daytalk so if they were scum together I imagine that giving them an idea on how to excuse their play would have happened in the scum PT. Town gives outs like that when they want to consider the possibilities without jumping the gun. It’s a fluffy slot but I think that’s mostly Ari being Ari.

[Alchemist21]

I'm unsure why you keep providing them the 'out' of it being an RVS gag.
Shoshin isn't really a joking player.
Even TW is fairly serious.

I mean, they've now clarified that they decided to do this pregame making it NAI and also not worth any more discussion about.
I just thought it might be a thing.

Ari no, I disagree, Varsoon is right. Does it necessarily make them scum? No but this isn’t your old site and they know that here and they are digging in thier heels despite strong opposition. That isn’t sitting right with me.

~Nancy

This is an example of the behavior we're avoiding. Yes, we're a fictive person, but that doesn't mean we're incapable of playing together as one.

-Shoshin & the worst (aka Shoshin the worst)

Why is Ari and I disagreeing on something bad for town?

Did we get an answer to this? S&W, please do that.

I hate to be anal about this but could you put down either a vote or unvote just in case the mod does count it?

Thank you.

VOTE: Shoshin and the worst

POSTURING!!!
Like, this is so fucking posturing.
Like, out vote did not count. I can guarantee that! You know that! So why does it matter if we unvote or not, especially considering it will be shown in the next VC that we are not, and even if we are, it's only L-1.

Yeah, it's not really good form to vote with intent but not with actual names.

[redacted snarky comment because I like Varsoon]

Trust, I was tempted to take advantage of it, make ShoshinTW think they were lynched, see the response, but I don't know if
1. it would've fooled them
2. they would've given any worthwhile info and not just WIFOM

Well, no way to do that now. Why throw out an opportunity like this? Take the chance!
Don't like that you didn't tbh.

- Por Flavor

I haven’t modded in ages and can’t say Krazy is like me, but I personally would have counted your vote as a mod since the post it came with made it apparent who it was directed at. I really want my vote there but not if it’s going to run the risk of a lolhammer ending the day prematurely.

[Alchemist21]

Since this never got a good point to be brought up, I am townreading Alchemist rn. His solving looks genuine and he’s quite present. Matches my concept of town!Alchemist over scum!Alchemist.
-Gamma Quadrant
PEdit: I’m assuming that’s Shoshin asking me that since I’ve played with tw a lot recently. Idk about U2, I’ll figure it out and post it in a full readlist later most likely.
Also, if tw and U2 form a hydra it should be called Detroit Become Human.

I was wondering why you hadn’t mentioned me yet. It was getting weird.

[Alchemist21]

Since this never got a good point to be brought up, I am townreading Alchemist rn. His solving looks genuine and he’s quite present. Matches my concept of town!Alchemist over scum!Alchemist.
-Gamma Quadrant
PEdit: I’m assuming that’s Shoshin asking me that since I’ve played with tw a lot recently. Idk about U2, I’ll figure it out and post it in a full readlist later most likely.
Also, if tw and U2 form a hydra it should be called Detroit Become Human.

I was wondering why you hadn’t mentioned me yet. It was getting weird.

Alchemist, as someone who has no experience whatsoever in playing with you: how would you be reading yourself, if you were another slot in this game? (Sorry for the annoying question. I'm going somewhere with this I promise.)

Town.

[Alchemist21]

Not really following this. Why does scum-to-town not give an out at all? Why does the described scum-to-scum scenario have to involve Mephistophanes 39 giving an out to Shoshin the worst at all?

Scum to Town doesn’t because they want the pressure to stay on the Town slot.

And you’re with me on tbe scum to scum scenario, it doesn’t happen, at least not in the game thread.

[Alchemist21]

Are you asking us or the hydra?

The hydra. How are you an “us” btw?

~N

“Us” meant me and whoever else was talking to you at the time.

[Alchemist21]

@Mod; Is there going to be a record of previous Days’ player list orders or do players have to manually keep track of previous orders?

[Alchemist21]

@ProFlavor what are your reads?

[Alchemist21]

I don't like u r a person 2 pushing pint - the push has a lot of stuff that pint hasn't done (e.g. promise of catch up) and less stuff along the lines of "pint is scummy because he did X"

why is activity now AI?

~ woof

This is their only serious post and there’s no comment about other stuff that’s happened.

[Alchemist21]

Taly I’m a bit lost on why you’re scumreading Mephistophanes. What was the original reasoning before this 1v1 started?

[Alchemist21]

Flesh out the difference between your scumread of Nico and U2’s scumread of Pint. They seem the same to me because you’re both pushing someone for not posting.

[Alchemist21]

Flesh out the difference between your scumread of Nico and U2’s scumread of Pint. They seem the same to me because you’re both pushing someone for not posting.

No, I’m not suspicious of Nico for lurking, she does that a lot as town, especially on D1. It’s what she said, that is making me suspicious. That’s why I want to get her answer to my question.

Wtf that question wasn’t for you. Maybe you should stop signing as por flavor.

Flesh out the difference between your scumread of Nico and U2’s scumread of Pint. They seem the same to me because you’re both pushing someone for not posting.

Nicos 2nd post came across like “ugh fine I’ll play if I must” - like a setup for later so she can be like “I’m lurking because I told you I’m already not really engaged in this game” (it’s a weak read on one sentence tbh)

U R is more like “I’m don’t see pint doing anything so I’ll just apply pressure” - I note his point that he knows Pint and wants to sort that slot - but I’m sure U r knows how to play the game in general so there are plenty of other dudes to sort - sticking on a read that basically consists of “he’s not doing anything” makes me think he wants to line up the rest of his reads to “fit in” with town - you can’t do that whilst (up to page 11 which I’ve read properly) most of the game has been about STW because you don’t know who is going to obvtown or scum it up

So I feel like U r is biding his time on an easy read

That makes sense. I still think they’re very similar pushes but I see what you’re saying. You’re probably Town.

[Alchemist21]

Since this never got a good point to be brought up, I am townreading Alchemist rn. His solving looks genuine and he’s quite present. Matches my concept of town!Alchemist over scum!Alchemist.
-Gamma Quadrant
PEdit: I’m assuming that’s Shoshin asking me that since I’ve played with tw a lot recently. Idk about U2, I’ll figure it out and post it in a full readlist later most likely.
Also, if tw and U2 form a hydra it should be called Detroit Become Human.

I was wondering why you hadn’t mentioned me yet. It was getting weird.

Alchemist, as someone who has no experience whatsoever in playing with you: how would you be reading yourself, if you were another slot in this game? (Sorry for the annoying question. I'm going somewhere with this I promise.)

Town.

Could you throw me a couple of things which you think are unlikely to come from scum!you this game so we can tighten up our read?

Scum me these days gets nervous and avoids posting, especially if someone like Gamma or RC who I know can read me well is present. As it’s been said to me before there’s a certain thoughtfulness in my Town posting that my scumgame lacks. My Townread on Ari is a good example of that.

[Alchemist21]

Taly did you see my reasoning on Town Mephisto? I explained it after you first asked for someone to do it and you never responded to it so I don’t know if you just didn’t see it or saw it and decided it didn’t count.

[Alchemist21]

UNVOTE:

I’m not feeling the STW scumread anymore.

[Alchemist21]

Varsoon you had already said you were tempted to act like stw had been hammered earlier for reactions so when you did the triple vote I knew it wasn’t real so it wasn’t anything that needed to be responded to.

[Alchemist21]

I didn’t think you would expect anyone to tske it seriously either, I just thought it was an emphasis on how much you wanted them lynched.

[Alchemist21]

That’s a pretty far stretch. Why didn’t any Town players respond to it either? The fact that nobody responded to it makes the lack of response NAI and I don’t know why you’re hung up on this.

[Alchemist21]

Where did that vote come from?

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: u r a person 2

Not a fan of their tiber vote. The vote plus their explanations feel like they were just latching onto what STW was doing. Supposing they thought the dayvig was real and STW was about to die, I think a U2 scumflip indicates STW Town with U2 wanting to mimic a soon-to-be-dead Townie’s play.

[Alchemist21]

STW offered a chance to cooperate when they asked who we should vote for
I gave them a list of slots I was interested in getting more from
STW picked T&L

Ok I missed that part. I thought you were just latching on out of nowhere.

UNVOTE:

[Alchemist21]

@Alch: What do you think of my current lynch pool. Do you TR any of them?

No, though most of them haven’t really posted either. I could go with a lurker lynch if there aren’t any better options by deadline but we don’t get a lot of useful info from it and I’d rather the vig just take care of them.

[Alchemist21]

@Alch: What do you think of my current lynch pool. Do you TR any of them?

Btw, talk to me about your Pint read. If you already said why you’re scumreading them (or at least why they’re in your lynch pool) I’ve missed it.

[Alchemist21]

@Almost, I feel like his activity became normal when he made the big post about U2 but I still don’t have a read on him. I don’t think I have any meta with him either though.

Could you also talk to me about your Tiber read? Is that based on meta or on something else?

[Alchemist21]

What are your reads, URAP2?
Care to share who you are PoE'ing through and why?
I've been just kinda glossing your recent posts, so if there's answers there, sorry.
Feed it to me

-V

lots out of game on my plate today. haven't read over yesterday yet. this is where im at right now. I'm also interested in taly as I continue doing a round of looking at my town reads.

1. Michael Scott (Auro + Volxen Hydra) town
2. Shoshin the worst (the worst + Shoshin hydra) ???
3. Mewtaph ???
4. u r a person 2 hey, that's me
5. AlmostChara (Almost50 + Chara Hydra) town
6. Mephistophanes 39 (Nancy Drew 39 and Aristophanes hydra) town
7. pinturucchio town
8. nicorobin ???
9. ProFlavor (Flavor Leaf and profii hydra) ???
10. Kokichi Oma ???
11. Tibor and Lumia (brassherald and Gamma Emerald hydra) town
12. alchemist21 town
13. Taly town
14. Varsoon town

Your read list is like a lot of town reads and question marks on the lurkier slots

I did a similar read list and got similar results in my hydra PT

So when STW said this game is hard to read I kinda town read that - because for this reason, it kinda is

I’m in the same boat. Everyone is either Towny or null.

[Alchemist21]

Townleaning both rotisserie slap chop and Bono.

Who’s rotisserie slap chop?

[Alchemist21]

@ProFlavor, Thinking a game is easy is really common when a player is confident in their reads, and he seems really confident on his stw read.

[Alchemist21]

Can I be a part of this viral chorus?

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist is someone I want to sort more.

I can see scum take the positions he's had (namely the vote/rationality on STW 128 133, 153 and the vote/unvote onto UP2 734 and 736), but, alongside my other iffy/scumlean reads, a lot of people don't agree.

ProFlavor, Michael Scott, and Pint need an individual ISO for me to get thoughts rolling on them.

Mephisto reread / UP2 Wagon Evaluation / ProFlavor/Michael Scott/Pint are the areas of sorting I'm looking to absolve in the next 2 days.

I don’t know what you expect me to respond to here. I’ve made myself pretty clear so if you’re still insure about something you’ll need to ask specific questions instead of asking for a response to a vaguely reasoned read.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Alchemist21

Considering that this vote hasn't left, was it serious?

Yes. You can take that vote as serious in that I haven't seen any other wagon was compelling enough for me to shift my vote. I don't buy how he's approaching the game state as genuine.

Hey Gamma, can I ask you a question? Do you think that I should be town reading you this game?

What answer were you expecting here?

It was an open ended question, so I wasn't expecting any answer in particular.

I like u r a person 2 for town quite a bit actually, and I would be willing to do my first active sort to them, Taly or Varsoon.

I think NicoRobin is a decent point to poke with a stick before deadline rears too close, but is a bad wagon to get going near deadline in case they are really just apathetic!town.

I don't know why pinturrichio keeps pushing their content back repeatedly but it's not a great look.

I didn't like the initial voting on UP2 when I first skimmed through it, the reasons for a scumread there lacked substance (Prompting Michael Scott to explain why he thought UP2's posts were manufactured, that's the vote that most got my attention when it happened.)

I agree a bit on Nico. A lurker lynch won't get anywhere, and I don't trust the fact that everyone is like "where's the scum at"?

:/ I get my vote on Kokichi contradicts the above statement, but I'm working to change this.

Pint pushing content back... not a great look? Or scum-indicative?

I thought ignoring u r a person 2's self-referential call for a wagon on himself by means of a vote over interaction was scummy. There is a part of me that thinks that scum would be looking for something to do outside of STW's wagon after it dissolved.

Mmm, yes. This is how I feel too.

I'm not taking Pint having to push his content back as scum indicative but I'm saying it would've been bad if posts along those lines continued, which I guess is pointless now.

What makes you think I’m not being genuine? This sounds like a you just made up a reason to keep your vote where it was during RVS.

VOTE: Mewtaph

[Alchemist21]

Taly’s vote seemed more like a pressure vote to get a response from me. Mewtaph’s reason for keeping his was sketchy.

[Alchemist21]

speaking of biased readings what do you all think the odds are that one of nico's scumbuddies was just like "hey vote stw so you're not replaced" :thinking:

It’s as likely as any other scenario.

[Alchemist21]

Is Nico the same person as Jeanne11? I think I saw that somewhere a long time ago but I’m not sure.

[Alchemist21]

That explains a lot.

[Alchemist21]

They're kind of infamous for this.
I think they even had a 3-game limit for awhile because of it.
It's a shame, because I really like when they do give it their all in a game.


-V

This. I think I only have 1 game with Jeanne but I remember all the MD posts about it and her complaining about constantly being WOTC’d. I even remember one mod made a game specifically so she could have a game to play in again.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist is someone I want to sort more.

I can see scum take the positions he's had (namely the vote/rationality on STW 128 133, 153 and the vote/unvote onto UP2 734 and 736), but, alongside my other iffy/scumlean reads, a lot of people don't agree.

ProFlavor, Michael Scott, and Pint need an individual ISO for me to get thoughts rolling on them.

Mephisto reread / UP2 Wagon Evaluation / ProFlavor/Michael Scott/Pint are the areas of sorting I'm looking to absolve in the next 2 days.

I don’t know what you expect me to respond to here. I’ve made myself pretty clear so if you’re still insure about something you’ll need to ask specific questions instead of asking for a response to a vaguely reasoned read.

I wasn't convinced by your original STW vote, so can you explain how that read has evolve since 422?

Someone already touched on this a bit (can’t remember who) but they were responding individually to posts at/about them in a way that made it easy to tell who was who. My original line of thought was that the lack of signing and being “one voice” was a method to avoid attempts at meta reading them (which their “we have no meta” post seemed to suggest). Their individual responses while still refusing to sign showed me that I was wrong. They’re not shying away from engagement either, which considering Shoshin’s pre-game claim that he’d have little time I believe scum would have used to try and stay under the radar.

And what were your thoughts on UP2/STW's interaction after you unvoted in 736? You stated an argument they were scum/town but you didn't follow up in a change of thought when UP2 clarified something to you.

It went back to null. That should have been obvious since I unvoted. Thinking back on it now, it’s slightly Towny that he wanted to work with STW on a common read, but not as Towny as it would be if they had initiated the interaction. STW gets Townier for it.

Do you see anything scum-indicative with Mewtaph aside from their reasoning to keep their vote on you?

No.

[Alchemist21]

Lmao. So you’re trying to say I’m competent enough to engage the thread and have everyone thinking I’m Town without taking over the thread, but you think I can’t even come up with my own thoughts? My 297 is in no way disconnected from what I said about Mephistophanes so that’s just straight bullshit. And then I must be scum because my reads changed? Because I didn’t double down on shit when it became clear I was wrong?

Yeah, no. You’re tripping over yourself to try and justify your terrible posts. You can eat rope today.

[Alchemist21]

I'm really sorry guys, I don't want to play this game at this moment. Yesterday I did excercise for the first time after surgery and it was good but I went to sleep early since I have no energy at all (I'm still on a restricted diet because of surgery), and before falling asleep I was like "fuck I haven't read the thread" and gave me anxiety 'cause I feel like this is a commitment that I'm not honouring... I hate when I'm fully committed to something and there's someone who's not, and right now I'm doing that.

I had a rough week. I'll try to wash it away and come back, but if I'm not able to do so, I'll have to replace out. You don't deserve this.

You’re fine. Your health is more important. Get well soon!

[Alchemist21]

I'm comfortable with my vote on Nico. I think a scum flip there would be useful anyway, given we have associatives already WRT who's trying to lead away from her lynch, and such.

Is there anyone convincingly scum at this point? I'm not seeing scum!STW how Varsoon is.

Mewtaph is scum.

[Alchemist21]

Baa, baa, black shiiiipppp

NicoRobin is being replaced. Nico can remain in the game if they post game-advancing content before a replacement is found. (Last prodge does not adhere to rule for prodges, which must include some game advancing content)

VOTE: Shoshin

@Mephistophanes, I think they just voted the leading wagon at the time as a prod dodge, not as an actual read.

[Alchemist21]

Taly’s vote seemed more like a pressure vote to get a response from me. Mewtaph’s reason for keeping his was sketchy.

i see later that you confidently state Mewtaph is scum, and also note this as the only reason. i'm not sure if it convinces me, but Mewtaph's also in our PoE so i find myself not caring too much.
~Chara

Keep going though. He tried to explain it and it was hilarious. That later post is what sealed my confidence on Mewtaph scum.

[Alchemist21]

.....the fuck is anyone townreading this? I'm gonna speak to my partner but this is a joke.

Emphasis on joke. I was already laughing at the slot. His last post is just icing on the cake.

[Alchemist21]

.....the fuck is anyone townreading this? I'm gonna speak to my partner but this is a joke.

Emphasis on joke. I was already laughing at the slot. His last post is just icing on the cake.

Okay, but this casual narrative you're trying to play out here doesn't fit the timeline. You were already laughing at the slot, except before you decided to go down the discredit and obtain from contributing elsewhere gameplan, your reaction to me holding onto a vote on you was anything but comedic. Explain to me how any content I make is "icing on the cake" now when the basis of your scumread is inherently based on riding the wave of consensus to try to ride me out the playerlist?

Wtf is “riding the wave of consensus” even supposed to mean? And I actually laughed when you tried to justify the vote on me. You keep making up inconsistencies to try to attack my posts.

[Alchemist21]

Yeah I'm not all that excited about wagoning Mewtaph.
The way people are treating that slot is criminal, too.
Like, I personally know that when people call my play a joke, I get incredibly frustrated and it tilts me something hella fierce.
That kinda shit does no favors to the gamestate or towards actually sorting a slot.


-V

Ok but do you ever just blatantly make shit up about people? Have you ever said some shit like “I’m not gonna sort you because I’m already scumreading you.”?

What about him is Town to you? Is it just his frustration or is it something else?

[Alchemist21]

Discrediting me as an excuse not to generate actual thought process on my slot. That's not an inconsistency, that's exactly what you're doing here.

I’ve given thoughts on your slot. All you can do is make up shit about my posts and say “it’s not Town.”

[Alchemist21]

We can all see your posts after that one in your ISO. You know damn well which posts I’m talking about.

[Alchemist21]

The only other interpretation for your second question in 253 is “why would scum coach scum.” Is that correct? Did you really want me to explain why scum would coach scum.

P-edit: You can try to act like I’m not sorting but that’s blatantly false.

[Alchemist21]

The fact that Varsoon, Mewtaph, and I are the three on Shoshin right now shows me that this is more than likely a scum slot.

Varsoon is hard town here. I’ve recently gotten to witness directly both townVarsoon and scumVarsoon, and really I’ve known Varsoon for like 4 and a half years now, so I’m pretty happy with my read there.

Mewtaph is town for the wagon composition. Mustang and Nancy pushing onto a townie the way they did makes total sense, and then people, and scumShoshin, decide to jump on to Mewtaph.

This also semi incriminates Jjh slot, but I’ll let them catchup first.

I realize my slot will probably be tried to use as a counterwagon option after pushing Shoshone like this, so unless you wanna try to 1v1 me and out explain the damn awful play it would have been to let Mewtaph live in this situation as scum...well, go for it. I could have just kept not playing the game and allowing Profii to play in that situation. Mewtaph likely would have been killed.

So there, Mewtaph and I would have to be scum together AND you’d have to think I would Super obviously protect them in this position AND I would hard town read Varsoon, a solid player who I know would very much end up tunneling me if he thinks I’m scum.

Long story short, Only town are on the Shoshin wagon right now. Bet.

You keep bringing up me tunneling as a reason to Townread the person I’m scumreading. It’s not even a good reason to Townread someone in theory, and in practice it doesn’t hold up because I have tunneled on scum before.

[Alchemist21]

I would say STW/Alchemist. Neither of them are townie whatsoever.

Scum was on the Mewtaph wagon. Regardless of Mew’s alignment.

I just freaking told you that I see 0 difference in his play here, than in OK 2, in fact, he is even more obviously townie here, so once I again, pretend I’m dumb and explain to me how Alchemist is possibly scum here?

He wasn’t even in OK2 much, and yes, it’s similar. Any decent scum player is going to be able to match their town play, especially Day 1. Why are you using that as a full excuse that Alchemist can absolutely not be scum here?

Are you hatcheting me so STW doesn’t get killed?

~Leaf

This still doesn’t explain why you think I’m scum. If it’s not for the Mewtaph push then where is it coming from?

[Alchemist21]

I think it's just Mewtaph and Taly atm but it does not make any sense to me, either.

Looks like it was just Mew tbh. I don't know what their shared meta is rn, Mew/Alchemist care to elucidate me?
-Gamma Emerald, reader of YA literature at age 19

I don’t think I’ve played with Mew before.

[Alchemist21]

I could compromise on Kokichi but it’s low-info and I don’t think it has a better than random chance of hitting scum. It’s a hard to read slot though and I don’t foresee that changing.

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Kokichi

[Alchemist21]

Taly’s vote seemed more like a pressure vote to get a response from me. Mewtaph’s reason for keeping his was sketchy.

I don't agree. Taly's vote, followed by the "actively engaging" thingy is sketchy. I don't agree with Mewtaph's reasoning, but coming to the thread with his first read being on you as a scumread when everyone else was townreading you? I don't see the scum rationale from that. Your vote on him seemed OMGUSy to me.

Mewtaph had his vote on me since RVS and he only claimed it was serious after Taly started challenging the consensus Townread on me. Scum would want to try and stop the cohesion that was forming but the following posts from Taly seemed indicative that she wanted to sort me while Mewtaph seemed like he wanted to take advantage of whatever seed of paranoia was there. In short, the timing of Mewtaph’s push on me next to Taly’s looks like scum, and when he got called on it he floundered on it. So I see it as scum who tried to make a subtle push then panicked when they got caught.

I haven’t said anything about how his timing factored into my read yet because I wanted to see if anyone else might try to sew paranoia regarding my slot. ProFlavor did do that but also did it while hard defending Mewtaph. I think if Mewtaph flips scum PR then ProFlavor’s a good candidate for their buddy, but if Mewtaph isn’t a scum PR then I think it’s unlikely a s/s relationship.

[Alchemist21]

Man I missed a lot of pages. Have I missed anything new or is this still the same deadline scramble we’ve been having?

[Alchemist21]

What started the ProFlavor wagon?

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: ProFlavor

[Alchemist21]

I’m sick so I probably won’t be as active over the next couple of days.

[Alchemist21]

OK.. now please follow the others' responses. You know how many specific notches you requested to move up, but DO NOT REVEAL IT NOW. You can then verify everyone's been telling the truth when everyone has claimed.

@Creature/@Alch: Whichever of you sees this first, please tell us what option did you use to move on the list and how much slots (if the format required such specification) as well as WHY you did it. Thanks you

~A50

OK.. now please follow the others' responses. You know how many specific notches you requested to move up, but DO NOT REVEAL IT NOW. You can then verify everyone's been telling the truth when everyone has claimed.

@Creature/@Alch: Whichever of you sees this first, please tell us what option did you use to move on the list and how much slots (if the format required such specification) as well as WHY you did it. Thanks you

~A50

I never sent in a move request because I didn’t see a point to me moving.

[Alchemist21]

Finally feeling better.

I can roll with a Creature wagon. If anyone wants to wagon Mewtaph with me though hmu.

VOTE: Creature

[Alchemist21]

Fite me.

[Alchemist21]

I’m mostly talking about Mew.

And why would Mew leave Mephistophanes alive? Who do you think would have shot them?

[Alchemist21]

By the way has anyone else noticed that a lot of pushes that were being made last Day phase seem to have been abandoned this Day? It feels weird. Then again a couple people said they needed to reassess so maybe a lot of people feel that way?

[Alchemist21]

Someone trying to frame Mew.

What I got about Mew on D1 is that he's a man of few words, except when he's pressured, so I assume that being pressured is not comfortable for him since he has to act unnatural. Killing Meph is a risk of being pressured again, so I imagine scum!Mew asking his fellow partners "hey, could we NOT kill Meph? That would point towards me".

The counter argument of this is that leaving Meph alive would possibly mean pressure coming from the loudest player towards him, since Meph was pushing the Meph wagon a lot. BUT, as ProFlavor said, Meph stated that they would push Varsoon if Shoshin flipped green. And Meph was a wrecking ball on D1, so that could be used in scum's agenda.

So in conclusion, I agree with Mew: scum tried to frame him.

Scum can kill people who have accurate reads. Plus there’s like a bajillion other reasons someone could be killed too so I don’t like how this assumption that the read on Mewtaph was involved at all is being treated as a given.

Also the pressure argument doesn’t even make sense. Why would someone afraid of pressure want to leave a slot alive that’s pressuring them?

[Alchemist21]

im Unconvinced

Vig could just hope we lynch the fact Varsoon shot a blank thus enabling town to realise the real vig is still about

Perhaps the real vig thinks of themselves more as an IC than a vig because they think they might team kill, so it’s more important to declare IC later

I would think it more likely that a vig takes a shot at one of the lurker slots as a target. Varsoon gets exposed as a liar, and vig has killed either a scum slot or someone that Town wouldn’t be sad to lose.

Maybe a shot got blocked and the vig doesn’t want to claim but right now all signs point to Varsoon telling the truth here.

[Alchemist21]

Varsoon leaving made it L-2.

[Alchemist21]

LPT: Don’t raise cattle unless you want to be fixing fences in the dark.

[Alchemist21]

Massclaim is necessary if another shot can be made. A lynch + 2 kills will leave us with 6 alive and if all the deaths are Town then it’s game over. We should treat today as if it’s Lylo unless another shot can’t be made.

[Alchemist21]

Just to go into some setup spec here, I don’t think it’s impossible that there’s 2 Town BP’s plus Doc. Only times I can remember seeing a vig in games this small were either semi-open setups where scum had some control over what power Towns had or greatest idea games which are just shenanigans. I could see 2 BP’s as something meant to give Town a bit of extra cushion against the vig. It’s a popular opinion among people who balance games that Towns need extra help.

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist, claim pls
Also reads?

Town Mutalisk. I’m a flying unit that can move anywhere I want but I never moved because I didn’t see the point.

I’m Townreading Brass and AC, scumreading Mew. I think ProFlavor is scum if Mew flips scum PR.

Everyone else (except Varsoon) I’m not sure on and will need to try and figure them out this Day.

[Alchemist21]

Explain the TR on AC please, I'm getting paranoid about that slot.

It’s honestly more of a gut read that I’ll admit is biased. Specifically, Chara seems similar to me in the way we think about things so I figure if they’re like me and playing like me then they’re probably Town.

[Alchemist21]

Just go to my wiki and you’ll see a list of my games sorted by most recent.

[Alchemist21]

MS, if you’re telling the truth about your role then JJ can’t be lying about his bulletproof since there’s multiple BP’s and exactly 2 have claimed. Trying to shoot him would just be trying to confirm something you should already know is confirmed.

[Alchemist21]

Well unless someone else claims BP I’d believe the claims we have.

[Alchemist21]

Eh, screw it - I think too much discussion here is just going to confuse us, and that confusion isn't worth the gambit.
The part I stated I omitted was that I'm X-shot BP. (Not revealing X)
I thought I could bait a NK. This is how I was 'informed' of multiple BP; since I'm the other BP.
I'm pretty sure T&L and jjh927 aren't W/W here so I made that assertion.

Wait so did your role even mention the existence of other BP roles or did you just make that part up completely?

[Alchemist21]

I’m getting suspicious of his slot as well. He didn’t bring up the option of shooting JJ until Varsoon said he can only shoot adjacent players. I checked the current order and the other player adjacent to Varsoon is ProFlavor. We could be looking at a Mew/ProFlavor/MS scumteam here.

[Alchemist21]

By the claim. I’ve already considered what purpose 2 BP roles could serve for balance and the way JJ and Brass claimed, along with the resulting 1v1, was a natural progression that I’d expect if both are Town BP.

[Alchemist21]

Prod received.

[Alchemist21]

I think what's best is if you move to the bottom again, and drag ProFlavor beneath you (If jjh927 is lynched). This way, Varsoon's quite a few positions away from ProFlavor *and* Alchemist|You. I think the only way to kill him in that case would be an air attack; and if Almost Chara is town, they should mostly block it, thus forcing scum to perhaps choose a different target.

This is the kind of plan I could see being from either alignment. On one hand yeah it’s keeping people in your solve away where they might have a harder time killing Varsoon, but it’s also dragging one of them outside of Varsoon’s killing range which is kind of sus.

[Alchemist21]

Prod received.

hi Alch, remind me where you're at right now? game is super inactive and if MS is power scum we're losing this one. if not i think we're still okay.
jjh feels like an inevitable lynch and that's what worries me about him being town. i know that scum could just not be putting their full effort in, of course, but when it's minimum effort in a gamestate like this to be active, it's a great time for the scum to make sure things are going their way.
it's also very likely we'll die tonight if scum doesn't shoot Varsoon so i'd to talk while i'm still here.
~Chara

My strongest scumread is still Mewtaph. ProFlavor and MS seem like likely partners but I’m not sure on them. If Mew’s a goon ProFlavor is most likely Town, and if JJ flips scum MS is more likely Town.

What really sticks out to me though is how MS started trying to play around Varsoon’s vig shot as soon as Varsoon said it had a limited range. It wouldn’t really surprise me if Mew/MS are both scum and ProFlavor is Town who’s in an awkward situation.

[Alchemist21]

Prod received.

hi Alch, remind me where you're at right now? game is super inactive and if MS is power scum we're losing this one. if not i think we're still okay.
jjh feels like an inevitable lynch and that's what worries me about him being town. i know that scum could just not be putting their full effort in, of course, but when it's minimum effort in a gamestate like this to be active, it's a great time for the scum to make sure things are going their way.
it's also very likely we'll die tonight if scum doesn't shoot Varsoon so i'd to talk while i'm still here.
~Chara

My strongest scumread is still Mewtaph. ProFlavor and MS seem like likely partners but I’m not sure on them. If Mew’s a goon ProFlavor is most likely Town, and if JJ flips scum MS is more likely Town.

What really sticks out to me though is how MS started trying to play around Varsoon’s vig shot as soon as Varsoon said it had a limited range. It wouldn’t really surprise me if Mew/MS are both scum and ProFlavor is Town who’s in an awkward situation.

I'm curious, what do you want my night action to be? Drag/no drag - move where, drag where?

I’m not one for telling other people how to use their roles. Even if your role is Town I’m not sure what the best use of it would be. My thinking would be to put someone within Varsoon’s killing range but he might not even shoot and it puts him at higher risk for getting killed. MS could have the right idea in putting someone on the other side of AlmostChara but that plan hinges on all scum being on the same side.

[Alchemist21]

If Mew’s a goon ProFlavor is most likely Town,

Evidence for this? ProFlavor mostly maintained Mewtaph at town, or "Lynch if FL wants to", and Mewtaph never once interacted with or referenced ProFlavor.

That’s it though. The defense of Mewtaph makes sense if Mew’s a scum PR, but the defense does look bad for ProFlavor if Mew flips scum which is why I don’t think they would have done it unless the risk was worth it.

i'm also okay voting Mewtaph, should i do that as well?
~Chara

Would rather do Mewtaph before ProFlavor. Is that wagon still possible though? Seems like everyone is treating JJ’s lynch as a foregone conclusion.

[Alchemist21]

Still not really.
Actually incredibly worried that your push for a massclaim was just to out roles like Chara's so that scum would have a roadmap to victory and you bussed JJH to distract from something else.

What do you think he’d be distracting us from? I’m also a bit paranoid but there’s some crazy wifom involved if it really is a bus.

2 BP’s is still feasible imo, but with the fact that 3 claims came out and 1 flipped scum I can’t help but wonder if scum deliberately had 2 members claim BP thinking a bus on one cleared the other and weren’t expecting an actual Town BP claim to happen.

[Alchemist21]

Still not really.
Actually incredibly worried that your push for a massclaim was just to out roles like Chara's so that scum would have a roadmap to victory and you bussed JJH to distract from something else.

What do you think he’d be distracting us from? I’m also a bit paranoid but there’s some crazy wifom involved if it really is a bus.

2 BP’s is still feasible imo, but with the fact that 3 claims came out and 1 flipped scum I can’t help but wonder if scum deliberately had 2 members claim BP thinking a bus on one cleared the other and weren’t expecting an actual Town BP claim to happen.

What you are referring to is the fake claim + fake counterclaim gambit, where two scum both make the same fakeclaim in hopes that when one of them is lynched, the other falsely becomes "confirmed town". But remember here that the claim order was 1) Jjh claimed BP first (see: post 2766), 2) T&L(Firebringer) claimed BP second (see: post 2769), and 3) we claimed BP third (see: post 2879). So if we were scum with Jjh, we only get the most out of doing something like that if no townie claimed BP, because no one is going to doubt that there is one town-aligned BP in a 14 player game. So why would we fakeclaim BP after 1) our scumbuddy Jjh fakeclaimed BP and 2) T&L(Firebringer), a townie, claimed BP? You mentioned that if we are scum we "weren’t expecting an actual town BP claim to happen", but it literally happened BEFORE we claimed BP, in your hypothetical scenario where we are scum with Jjh and T&L(Firebinger) is town. So if we were scum with Jjh and our plan was to do that gambit to get one of us townlocked, we could have easily aborted the gambit as soon as we saw that T&L(Firebringer) claimed BP after Jjh claimed BP.

And besides all of that, the whole point of the fake claim + fake counterclaim gambit is to claim a role that town is unlikely to have in the first place – that’s the whole point of the gambit. Scum can’t reasonably expect there to be no town-aligned BP roles.

This is a 14-player game with 11 town vs 3 scum. Two town-aligned BP roles sounds right to me.

On the other hand, Almost Chara's flip (town-aligned anti-air unit) 100% confirms that there is a scum-aligned air unit, because otherwise their role would be pointless. You and Mewtaph both claimed Zerg air units. Jjh's fakeclaim was "Zerg hatchery", and his actual role was "Terran Command Center". In the Starcraft II game, The Terran Command Center (see: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Command_Center_(Legacy_of_the_Void) ) is the Terran equivalent of the Zerg hatchery (see: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Hatchery_(Legacy_of_the_Void)). Both are the main bases of each respective faction. And notice how each nightkill has the flavor of "marine gunfire", and the Terran faction’s basic unit is the marine (see: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Marine_(Legacy_of_the_Void)). And Almost Chara's role PM talks about scum air units like observers (from the Protoss faction; see: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Observer_(Legacy_of_the_Void)) and Ravens (from the Terran faction; see: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Raven_(Legacy_of_the_Void)). So clearly, the flavor in this game is that zerg = town, and scum = definitely Terran and possibly Protoss as well (though we’ve only seen a Terran scum role and a Terran nightkill flavor so far).

With JJh's actual role (Terran Command Center) being the Terran equivalent of his fakeclaim (Zerg Hatchery), it stands to reason that each scum is likely to be given a fakeclaim that has some correspondence to their real role. So in other words, there is a scum air-unit, they are either a Terran air unit or a Protoss air unit, and their fakeclaim is for a Zerg air unit. And besides all of that, in my opinion it's extremely unlikely that there would be three-town aligned air units, and that the scum air unit would fakeclaim a ground unit like the zergling (see: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Zergling_(Legacy_of_the_Void)).

I am 100% certain that one of you or Mewtaph is scum, so today should be about sorting the two of you.

- Volxen

It’s not just you though. There’s a possibility that T&L were pulling that gambit and it’s a possibility I’m having to consider right now.

Also I wouldn’t just assume scum fakeclaims match their real roles with air/ground stuff. We don’t even know what JJ’s mod-provided fakeclaim was so for all we know he just came up with his own rather than use the one the mod gave him.

[Alchemist21]

I have gut townread on pint and no read on anyone else.

I am assuming ur town here because I assume u were the leading force on the jjh yesterday or something.

Fire I’m getting increasingly paranoid about everything right now so if you’re Town I’m gonna need you to help me be sure of it.

[Alchemist21]

I have gut townread on pint and no read on anyone else.

I am assuming ur town here because I assume u were the leading force on the jjh yesterday or something.

Fire I’m getting increasingly paranoid about everything right now so if you’re Town I’m gonna need you to help me be sure of it.

what exactly u want from me. I am lazy here and I thought I was sort of cleared from suspicion

I need you to try and get into the game more.

[Alchemist21]

I think Pro Flavor likely flips scum here.

Wrt Pint’s thing, I can see where he was coming from with it but I have never played Starcraft, I just know the flip didn’t give a specific fakeclaim so there is that possibility he wasn’t using it.

@Those of you who think the fakeclaim JJ gave was his mod provided one, do you think that includes the actual Bulletproof element?

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist is definitely a player that will buss someone if they see them going down.

Fire if you’re still unsure about me consider that I didn’t vote JJ when it was pretty clear they were getting lynched.

[Alchemist21]

Alch why r u so clearly looking for ways to poke holes in peoples townieness that it is blatant to me and everyone else?

I’m not. I’m just really paranoid and I don’t want to make the mistake of confTowning people and then they flip scum.

P-edit: And we both know that with as many games as we’ve played you should be almost as good at reading me as Gamma or RC. You’re doubting of me means you’re either Town who’s not playing well or scum and I really need you to step up and try to form more reads so I can try to tell which it is.

[Alchemist21]

Fire, you’re seriously weirding me out right now. If you ISO’d me like you said you did you should know by now this is my Towngame.

[Alchemist21]

What’s wrong is that you’re using word usage as a reason to scumread me. Like you should know I just don’t make very emotional posts.

[Alchemist21]

You’re still basing this on word choice. I’m specifically reaching out to you right now to try to read you because of our history and you’re calling it impersonal and detached. I don’t understand how you’re getting that.

[Alchemist21]

I have reached out to you specifically and put you in the top 3 players that should be able to read me. How is that not a personal connection to you? Trying to read me for specific word usage is like when people say “to be honest” is a scumtell; no, it’s just personal diction.

[Alchemist21]

Fire, you’re seriously weirding me out right now. If you ISO’d me like you said you did you should know by now this is my Towngame.

really? cause from my stance u have weirded me out a lot more.

theres a detachment in ur approach to me.
word usage is impersonal while you hint at a personal reason i should be townreading u.
your back and forth on me while you try to go between scumreading me and townreading me has no sincerity in it.

i don't know man. you tell me what is wrong here.

I have reached out to you specifically and put you in the top 3 players that should be able to read me. How is that not a personal connection to you? Trying to read me for specific word usage is like when people say “to be honest” is a scumtell; no, it’s just personal diction.

well i am not using specific words as a scum tell friendo.
i am talking about ur approach to me in generals because I can't be as precise with these tonal feelings i get from reading ur posts.

they just don't got that alch!town feel i think.

What you worried about with regards to me though?

If you’re not going by specific words then explain the bolded. This is the main thing that’s worrying me rigt now - that you should know how to read me better than this and you aren’t.

[Alchemist21]

I wouldn't take any posting after hammer talk from the flipped to mean much. WE CAN DISSECT IT TOMORROW TOGETHER EINSTEIN

At least this we can agree on.

[Alchemist21]

I would equate lots of games together with a better ability to read someone. You, RC, and Gamma are the 3 players who I’ve played with the most and the other 2 definitely have a good track record of reading me.

Maybe the fact we always had the same alignment in the past was just something we took for granted and it hampered our ability to actually read each other? Idk.

[Alchemist21]

I hate to say it but Mew’s the only one being reasonable here. MS and Pint have both come in with immediate pushes on each other. One of them has to be scum but now I’m not sure if this wasn’t lylo distancing between them. It’s really weird how MS said they talked about voting anyways during the Night but then retracted that vote just 12 minutes later.

Ok that’s a lot of p-edit but I see that pint vote’s back.

[Alchemist21]

I hate to say it but Mew’s the only one being reasonable here. MS and Pint have both come in with immediate pushes on each other. One of them has to be scum but now I’m not sure if this wasn’t lylo distancing between them. It’s really weird how MS said they talked about voting anyways during the Night but then retracted that vote just 12 minutes later.

Ok that’s a lot of p-edit but I see that pint vote’s back.

Alchemist, Mewtaph is literally confirmed scum from your POV if you are town. I explained this at the end of day one -- how can you not see this?

How many times must I repeat that there are exactly TWO scum ground units and ONE scum air unit? It's been proven beyond any doubt through everything that has happened.

You and Mewtaph are not both town, it is simply 100% impossible for the both of you to be town.

- Volxen

I meant to respond to that post but then the thread got locked yesterday. I’m not going to rely on flavor to solve the game because scum could be lying and even when games seem breakable by flavor they never are.

[Alchemist21]

Also bringing up the strongman yesterday out of nowhere and making that kill to prove the existence of it in order to have an alibi for their fake claim? Genius.

@MS, Considering Pint made this as part of his push on you I could see the FB kill being done specifically to push you.

[Alchemist21]

Alch you're agreeing with scum!me?

Thinking about how MS is pushing you, he’s either scum with Mewtaph and trying to mislynch you or he’s Town and the team is you/Mewtaph. My lylo distancing theory doesn’t make sense when I think more about it because pushing Town Mew would have been 10x easier for the two of you as a team.

I think you’re looking worse in the 1v1 but I’m certain I want to lynch Mewtaph first at this point. Not going to put down a vote before Varsoon has a chance to give his thoughts though.

[Alchemist21]

Something too.

I read all of it too. These transcripts are a lot of effort to fake if they’re scum here when they could have never bothered and just as well said “we talked about it on discord” and gave a cliffnotes version. I don’t see a problem with any of the points made in the post either so this all just looks like solid Town posting to me.

[Alchemist21]

“With anticipation”

What does that even mean?

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: Michael Scott

[Alchemist21]

Good game everyone!

[Alchemist21]

I think almost everyone in dead discord thought lynching Mewtaph was scum wincon so this was quite a twist

I thought it would be our wincon too.

[Alchemist21]

MS’ flavor analysis being scarily accurate was the whole reason I said I wasn’t going to try to solve by flavor. Town me probably would have sheeped the hell outta the MS hydra following the PF flip.

[Alchemist21]

But you said you read only three pages

Tbf those three pages were easily my scummiest. I was trying hard to shoot down FB’s scumread on me, and I wasn’t lying when I said RC is in the top 2 people that can read me.