Mini Normal 2046: Autumn's Farewell [Endgame]

[Kmd4390]

VOTE: YyottaCat

Why me?

Getting nervous already?

VOTE: YyottaCat

Vote YyottaCat

[Kmd4390]

Cool

I'm already very confident Leodanny is town

I could see that.

[Kmd4390]

Leodanny do you want my answer or creature's?

Oka, that's a discussion better left for MD. If you want RQS, start asking questions. Personally, my solution is usually to just vote the scummiest person even if they haven't done much yet. That's what I did here. Any thoughts on yyotta?

[Kmd4390]

I want both

I took your "I hope not" as genuinely hoping there aren't four scum. I think you're probably too new to have faked that.

___________

Oka, if you ask questions, I'll humor you. I don't recall a time RQS worked better than RVS, but we've already pretty much had any RVS we're going to so I don't think it can hurt. Do you have any opinions on anyone yet?

Can we lynch VOTE: Suka now?

Meh, wouldn't be the worst vote.

wow scum trying to move people off the mbaki wagon imo

smh my head

Who specifically do you mean?

[Kmd4390]

That whole page just felt like shit posting...

[Kmd4390]

That whole page just felt like shit posting...

New page, new start?

But, seriously why was it shit. We are slowly getting things moving along here.

If you disagree, why didn't you comment on any of it?

[Kmd4390]

I want to know what you found relevant in there because you implied there was something. Seems more productive to focus on what mattered than what didn't.

[Kmd4390]

I want to know what you found relevant in there because you implied there was something. Seems more productive to focus on what mattered than what didn't.

I implied that we are finally starting to get rolling here. I wasn't speaking to a single post just my overall feel. Does this upset you? Would you be happy if we just extended RVS til page 30-40?

I actually agree progress was made in about pages 2-3. Just checked in and nothing was relevant since I'd last posted. A short RVS is best.

[Kmd4390]

VOTE: DrDolittle

Also a good vote.
I don't like how this guy's playing.
Feels opportunistic.

I'm curious what makes you feel that way. He's voting Nero who doesn't seem to be a popular target, and has yet to comment on yyotta or oka who each have multiple votes, while saying he doesn't think Suka is scum. I'm not surprised to see a vote on drdolittle, but I wouldn't call him opportunistic.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, fair enough. Just seemed like an interesting word choice, but I see where you're coming from.

[Kmd4390]

but is Suka a do little buddy?

I'd lean no but it's way too early to figure that out.

[Kmd4390]

cause 129 reads frantic "here's all the ways that I might be mislynched" even though you have like 1 vote.

doesnt read right.

I don't think he's freaking out. I just think nero's mind moves quickly. If anything, this makes him likely town for trying to determine your motivations.

____________

Rb, I'd vote drdoolittle over Nero, but he's far from my first choice.

____________

Maybe not

Great contribution.

_____________

Creature,
1. Why is YyottaCat town?
2. Go through any of my hundreds of games. I don't do the pocketing thing. My scum game is just me trying to match my town game.

[Kmd4390]

Oh, OkaPoka slight scum side too.

That whole page just felt like shit posting...

New page, new start?

But, seriously why was it shit. We are slowly getting things moving along here.

Weird post.

Also, Varsoon is actually closer to scum side than town side on a re-read I reckon.

What made you change your mind?

[Kmd4390]

I don't know why I had him as town. I re-read the game, and his posts are mediocre for a player of his caliber. Don't love how quickly he changed his YYotta vote and shifted it to Oka, nor his possible pocketing of Nero.

So you're saying he's good at town and bad at scum?

[Kmd4390]

I don't know why I had him as town. I re-read the game, and his posts are mediocre for a player of his caliber. Don't love how quickly he changed his YYotta vote and shifted it to Oka, nor his possible pocketing of Nero.

So you're saying he's good at town and bad at scum?

Just the first 5 words.

I see your other post since I asked this saying he's not a scum read, but it seems this has affected the strength of your town read on him so I'll ask anyway: you describe his play as mediocre. Don't you think it's more likely other factors have caused that than his alignment? You acknowledge that he's a good player. You are now acknowledging that his scum game is probably good too. A red PM probably would cause him to get sloppy. I think you're town but I want to encourage critical thinking. Mafia is never as simple as town playing well and scum playing poorly. It's about everyone's motivations and reasons for doing things.

[Kmd4390]

This will probably mildly annoy you, but 252 is townie.

Great, but did you actually take in what I was saying?

[Kmd4390]

hey Nero why haven't you said words about me?

[Kmd4390]

b/c L2ers matter not to me

Hey I'm working on getting back.

[Kmd4390]

This will probably mildly annoy you, but 252 is townie.

Great, but did you actually take in what I was saying?

I don't need the advice, but I appreciate you offering it.

If you need an answer, you're interpreting mediocre wrong. It did not live up to my short-term recall of his posts - memory isn't eidetic - but it was not terrible either, hence "meh" or "mediocre". It is not calling his posting mediocre; that is a hard overall scale that is not very relevant. Out of game influences on his posting frequency and quality are not important for this stage of the game.

k.

[Kmd4390]

V/LA until... Let's say Saturday because I don't know how busy I will be Friday

If the thread is slow enough I'll have an opportunity to at least check in once each day.

[Kmd4390]

People need to be more obvtown

It shouldn't matter when there's obvscum. Vote Nero, please!

You haven't given a single reason for this. Enlighten us. At this point I'm much more likely to vote you than Nero.

[Kmd4390]

Now we need to figure out whose alt mbaki is.

[Kmd4390]

Actually I may have it. There aren't many people who capitalize my whole username, get meta reads on creature so early, and feel confident enough not to want advice during a game.

[Kmd4390]

Shit now that's gonna affect the way I read you and I might not even be right....

[Kmd4390]

Suka,

hey Creature why haven't you said words about me?

You mean this post? Because for a lot of people I'd agree a self focus is scummy but with Nero it's more his personality I think. As for not sorting creature...meh. I see where you are coming from, I just don't see it as damning or Nero being obvscum.

Why did it take my comment about voting you over Nero for you to finally explain your vote?

[Kmd4390]

Your comment had nothing to do with it.

Interesting timing then. Can you tell me what triggered it if not my comment? You were asked multiple times and never once answered until I asked.

VOTE: suka for no reason..?

LOL

i'm townreading this

Why? If anything it's making me doubt myself on suka because it looks like scum seeing a wagon not on them and jumping on.

Dude it's a 14 page game
Even if you had to read literally all 341 others posts again, that'd take, what, 20 minutes?

20 minutes gets me through about 2 pages personally but having kids might be part of why.

I'm willing to jump on the DDL wagon (when/if he comes back) even though it doesn't really make sense to me..

If it doesn't make sense to you, why are you willing to jump on it? I see you were voting Suka when you said this and Suka was the lead wagon. What would be the reason for jumping off? Do you no longer scum read Suka? Actually....I kept reading after typing this and you called Nero vs Suka town vs town. Why were you even voting a town read in the first place?

If I can get a Yyotta policy wagon going, then I'll get on it.

I mean... I think yyotta is scum but if calling it a policy lynch will get people to vote there I'm all for it.

I'm the IC.

Newb...

Persuading isn't helpful. Besides the obvious problem of confirmation bias, it gives the scum cover to sheep.

I've made my top suspect clear. If someone needs explanation to see that my perspective comes from town, I'm happy to oblige. But don't expect unsolicited explanations. And regardless, I'll never "justify."

Oh wow maybe it really is a newbie game...

[Kmd4390]

His posts. Especially the one where he votes me.

I'd also be willing to lynch Vorkuta at this point.

Well you realize that you aren't exactly scoring brownie points with that reasoning?
With my vote on you, that'll make 6 (4 as per VC, 1 from mbaki right after).
Anyone with an intent to hammer/follow up?

If Yyotta isn't getting lynched, I'd probably vote Suka.

[Kmd4390]

Did you miss my questions to you in 438?

[Kmd4390]

Jumping on to understand it is something I wouldn't do personally, but I guess I can see where it could make sense. But:

at which point I hop on the suka wagon.

^That sounds more like being ok with the lynch considering the size of the wagon and deadline being a little closer now. Has something changed?

[Kmd4390]

I think suka has a chance of being scum

Ok I'll play ball

Suka's posts come off as very pushy for whatever wagon she's feels like pushing and have a very mean time.
Based on the way she posts, I doubt that she's a newbie, and hence I think she's fishing for things.
Like there's no way good scum!suka ends up at L-2 THIS EARLY ON.

Why can't scum get to L-2? How do you expect scum to be lynched without first getting to L-2? If that were true we'd no Lynch on day 1 of every game.

I don't know- I didn't roll scum

There's no answer I can give you that will satisfy you.

I don't like this at all. Satisfying the person asking a question shouldn't take priority over genuinely answering the question as town. It sounds like a scum mindset.

It gave me weird town vibes because of how little of a shit it gave, looked like someone who's generally just an awful player rather than scummy

Being on awful player isn't a town tell.

Suka is still sounding like Mathblade to me.

Wow. I had this exact same thought lol

ok VOTE: mbaki

Why are we letting yyotta live again?

think yyotta is town.

Why?

I don't think Kmd is town. His ISO is a lot of commentary, and like a total of 1 scum read in yyotta?
VOTE: kmd

This sounds like you pulled up my ISO and skimmed for votes rather than reading it. For example, what do you think my read is on suka? What about on vorkuta?

[Kmd4390]

Being on awful player isn't a town tell.

It is also not a scum tell.

Then we're in agreement. Good.

[Kmd4390]

Nero, let's pretend yyotta is confirmed town for a second. Now let's pretend it's LYLO and yyotta is there. Are you confident in a town win? Do you trust yyotta?

[Kmd4390]

thanks but is there anyone that you don't townread, creature?

Varsoon
DrDolittle

for starters

if im right about how you got here then why not throw yyotta in there too

How do you think he got there?

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. Now I have to ask.

Kmd
BEF

could also be scum

Creature, are you just going by post count? Because mine's only low because I actually put everything in one post and don't spam like five posts in a row when I'm catching up.

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. Now I have to ask.

Kmd
BEF

could also be scum

Creature, are you just going by post count? Because mine's only low because I actually put everything in one post and don't spam like five posts in a row when I'm catching up.

i townread this post tbh

That's a weird post to town read. I'd probably defend my activity as scum too.

[Kmd4390]

I'll make a list too. Town on top, scum on bottom:
Leodanny
Rb
Nero Cain
Okapoka
Varsoon
Brighteyedfish
Creature
Drdoolittle
mbaki
Vorkuta
Suka
YyottaCat

[Kmd4390]

Nero, that post that creature pointed out showed his mindset in a way I haven't really seen from anyone else in this game.

[Kmd4390]

Yyotta has done some things that blatantly show a "lynch anyone but me" mentality. The "why me" post, the suka vote "for no reason", and the OMGUS vote on mbaki immediately come to mind.

[Kmd4390]

I still pref KMD. Willing vorkuta over yyota. Wouldn't be too opposed to my lynch either. I'm a liability on town at this rate especially with this player list

Did you even see my reply to you?

[Kmd4390]

Too tired to read all that. I'm working doubles today and tomorrow. Will check in to see if my vote is needed to avoid no Lynch, but I'm not likely to be caught up until friday and if I remember right, that's after the deadline.

[Kmd4390]

If Yyotta were scum, she could be voting Vorkuta/DrDo? I feel like she doesn't care enough about her life to be scum.

Yeah by that logic we need a new wagon because we are all voting town right now. I'd be surprised if that was the case. Also, you opened up quite a bit after being wagoned. Is it because you are about your life? Does that make you scum? (Note: These are mostly rhetorical. Just making my point)

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

Aren't we supposed to be consolidating? Deadline is only 70 hours away.

[Kmd4390]

If Yyotta were scum, she could be voting Vorkuta/DrDo? I feel like she doesn't care enough about her life to be scum.

Yeah by that logic we need a new wagon because we are all voting town right now. I'd be surprised if that was the case. Also, you opened up quite a bit after being wagoned. Is it because you are about your life? Does that make you scum? (Note: These are mostly rhetorical. Just making my point)

VOTE: BrightEyedFish

Aren't we supposed to be consolidating? Deadline is only 70 hours away.

We are also supposed to be voting who we think is most likely to flip scum. I have no issue being online the hours before deadline if it doesn't gain traction. Why arent you telling BEF off for not consolidating and voting me (our wagons were the same size) as well?

Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't see him do it. Don't work 80 hour weeks and play mafia lol

[Kmd4390]

Yes - you said I skimmed your ISO and noted only one read. Which is true. I only found one read, and perhaps a comment to the like of im also ok with lynching XXX iirc.

This is why you should read instead of skimming.

[Kmd4390]

make kmd point out where he has reads tomorrow. (hint he doesn't)

The reads list I posted would be a good place to start.

[Kmd4390]

I'll make a list too. Town on top, scum on bottom:
Leodanny
Rb
Nero Cain
Okapoka
Varsoon
Brighteyedfish
Creature
Drdoolittle
mbaki
Vorkuta
Suka
YyottaCat

Speaking of this, I very much question Leodanny's and my own placement, especially with you putting Vorkuta and YYotta below me and them being my primary pushes.

I've already explained leodanny. My reads would also change with flips. For example, I don't think that yyotta and suka are both scum. I think it's probably one or the other. Day 1 isnt about associative tells. It's about lynching g the player you think is most likely to flip scum.

[Kmd4390]

It gives us nothing, imo.

You really don't think the flip tells us a single thing about who was on or off the wagon, people who reacted to the wagon, or the other day 1 wagons?

[Kmd4390]

Fair. But why is information more important than lynching scum? Or am I misunderstanding you?

[Kmd4390]

I'm curious why you answered mbaki with just the info bit then and not your read on yyotta but maybe I'm just nitpicking at this point.

[Kmd4390]

Coming home from work an hour late at 8am I'm not reading five pages right now. Will try to catch up after I sleep.

[Kmd4390]

I know this sucks but my catch up may not happen today. Didn't know that my wife's brother is staying with us for Christmas.

[Kmd4390]

So I'm trying to figure out if rb's posting towards mbaki is too blatant to be actual crumbing, but...maybe rb assumed he wouldn't be dying soon enough for it to matter?

VOTE: Mbaki

I was about to vote before the guilty, too.

If mbaki is in fact scum, this sounds like something a buddy would say.

3 votes and already flailing.

Actually does seem that way...

Actually, thinking more about it, I have to go back on what I said. Somebody rb was pushing has to be scum, because he was the most threatening townie (lol) and just being widely townread isn't enough. His top pushes were these 4 I think, and at least 1 has to be scum. Hrm.

I actually do agree with you here though and if you are town, I think Vorkuta is scum.

How do you feel knowing that you sat on a town slot all of d1?

*Shrug*. Being wrong sucks but it's happened to me more than enough times on Day 1s that I'm not shocked by it. I've very rarely had perfect reads in a game.

@rb- are you like... breadcrumbing with your 'wow's everywhere?

wow actually scummy imo. For real this actually does sound like trying to subtly ask rb if he's the traitor but... if that's the case, Vorkuta never shoots rb. I kinda think that if rb was shot by a vig and not town, they need to claim because if that's what happened I think it's likely Vorkuta is scum. If not, I think I'd lean mbaki.

VOTE: Vorkuta

Perhaps he's my partner, or perhaps I'm not scum. Whichever world you live in, that post is horrendous.

And this sounds like an intentional attempt to plant WIFOM after mbaki's flip. I hope I'm not just confirmation biasing here but it's like everything mbaki is posting since day start feels like scum. The point mbaki raises against Vorkuta on this page just makes so much sense though. But like I said if that's what happened there is absolutely no world where rb is Vorkutascum's NK. So yeah, I need to see a claim from a vig who shot rb in order to buy that. Vorkuta could still be scum who shot rb but that would mean he thought rb was crumbing a power role or something and not traitor. And actually the more I think about that, the more plausible it sounds.

Still prefer mbaki lynch to vorkuta, though revelations are interesting. We can lynch vorkuta tomorrow.

*sigh*. I dunno. I'm confident that one of the two is scum. I just need to think more to figure out which one it is. mbaki's push on Vorkuta does make me think they aren't scum together. I think I lean mbaki as well though.

mbaki's self vote pushes it over the edge for me. The difference between mbaki selfvoting and your typical rage!town self-voter is that mbaki isn't the type of player who self-votes, based on what he said about yyotta. Either he was lying about his opinion on yyotta or he was manufacturing rage. pick whatever reason you want, mbaki is the scummier player.

Hmm. Yeah I can agree with that.

______________

mbaki is already L-2 and I want some more time on this, but I'd vote there otherwise.

[Kmd4390]

wow actually scummy imo. For real this actually does sound like trying to subtly ask rb if he's the traitor but... if that's the case, Vorkuta never shoots rb.

not sure if i agree here.
could be that vork got no information or simply forgot 181?

mbaki showed rb's reply to this and it's pretty hard to see that as no information if Vorkuta's post was in fact a traitor fishing post. And I'd be shocked if someone put a post like that out there, found the traitor, and then forgot about it.

kmd vote mbaki please

No. I'm still deciding. Why the hurry?

You can apply the exact same thing to me; rb's crumbs are damn obvious to me (roleplaying here), that is not something I would miss and especially so with the attention I was already paying to him. It is a continuum because the more obvious the traitor is the less sense it makes for scum to kill them. This was the sole thing holding me back on Vorkuta, but I'm chalking it up to that happening early in the day and his inexperience led him to succumb to recency bias. Recency shows rb voting him and pushing for his lynch, combined with rb being a very widely townread player.

The difference is that if Vorkuta's post was basically asking rb "are you the traitor", it shows that he was actively looking. I don't see anything that shows you actively looking. So it makes more sense that you'd accidentally kill your traitor than that Vorkuta would, especially considering that his actively looking was directed at rb. However, actively looking for a traitor would show knowledge that a traitor exists, so that's more of a point against Vorkuta than you. That's why this decision is hard. I can see either of you as scum depending on what angle I'm working out my logic from.

This paragraph went from bad to good, but I would like you to consider the ridiculousness of that first sentence Especially because you've agreed with multiple of my points. And yes, they very well could have thought rb was crumbing a power role, since that is what he agreed to partially.

Well the first sentence was my first impression of your post. But I do see where you are coming from and you've raised good points.

[Kmd4390]

@kmd my thought against that is, vork thought process is wow imo rb could be traitor but rb has been pushing me hard all game day 1 nah I might be overthinking this let's kill him wow imo

Still feels risky from his point of view. Anyone who you have a thought about being traitor is someone you avoid killing just in case they are. Seems like he'd just pick someone else that makes zero sense as a traitor, especially on N1.

[Kmd4390]

Hmm?

[Kmd4390]

I don't think vorkuta is scum. I buy his whole thing about not knowing what a traitor is and expecting he'd be coached as scum.

[Kmd4390]

What specifically makes you think he's taking it rather than just is genuinely new, doesn't know what a traitor is, and is being accused of things he doesn't know anything about? And I'm still not convinced he'd put out a feeler toward the, get the reaction he got, and just immediately NK RB. It just doesn't add up. I admit that when I first saw it, it made sense. But after some thought I just don't see it. I mean maybe he's still scum because his play isn't exactly anything I've townread, but I just don't think you have a valid point on the traitor thing.

[Kmd4390]

What specifically makes you think he's taking it rather than just is genuinely new, doesn't know what a traitor is, and is being accused of things he doesn't know anything about? And I'm still not convinced he'd put out a feeler toward the, get the reaction he got, and just immediately NK RB. It just doesn't add up. I admit that when I first saw it, it made sense. But after some thought I just don't see it. I mean maybe he's still scum because his play isn't exactly anything I've townread, but I just don't think you have a valid point on the traitor thing.

I'm sorry, I just think you're flat out wrong here. And again, if you end up voting me today that's fine, but I want a guarantee you vote Vorkuta tomorrow when I flip town. It probably doesn't help his case that before today he was likely my strongest scumread, with some not good posting including that post towards Nero. And, as you've already agreed with, at least one scum and probably both were being pushed by rb for him being killed to make sense. Guess who was rb's hardest* push?

*Hardest still pretty pussyfooted, but hardest nonetheless.

The only way I can see it is if he thought RB was crumbing a power role and not traitor.

[Kmd4390]

Or if RB was shot by a vig but no one has claimed that so at this point I'm gonna assume no.

[Kmd4390]

So are you going to place your vote on me, then? You sound like you've made your mind up long ago.

I think I'd prefer a suka Lynch to yours. If it has to be you or vorkuta then yeah I've pretty much decided.

Vote Suka

[Kmd4390]

grumble grumble

the outside voters don't even have a case

@creature
@suka
@kmd
@varsoon

make a nice solid post with some points detailing why this person is scum and why its superior to other wagons

Ok. I may have some free time Sunday, football permitting. If not, Monday for sure. Still got family here for the holidays.

[Kmd4390]

V/LA until Sunday night

[Kmd4390]

wow why'd I miss so many pages

I probably won't get fully caught up tonight but will try to put a dent in this read. Anything I need to know?

[Kmd4390]

Yeah, too tired tonight

[Kmd4390]

Ok...

Starting with Page 59:
Dannflor and Oka mostly. Dann is obvtown and he replaced obvtown so that's good. I also see a lot of what he sees. The whole thing about Vorkuta never killing rb makes a lot of sense and is exactly what I said earlier. It just doesn't make sense that he makes that kill which is why Vorkuta is probably a bad lynch. However, that doesn't make mbaki scum. It seems like this day was set up in a way that one of the two needs to be lynched and that's probably a bad idea. Why does mbaki have to be scum? Oka keeps bringing up the self vote. Self voting is generally poor play regardless of alignment. It's usually an emotional reaction. It's usually not well thought out. The exception is when someone is trying to get townread, which isn't only done by scum. Oka seems to be arguing that this is what mbaki was doing. If he's right, it may be a point against mbaki, but I don't think it's as damning as Oka seems to think it is. The one thing I want to know though is why Oka's vote sat on Vorkuta during this whole exchange. Oh, and Dann's thoughts on Suka.

Page 60:

does really nobody see mbaki's rage buildup as fake ?

Not really. I see where it's possible it was, but I'm not leaning that way. I'm also not sure I'd call it rage so much as frustration.

__________

Creature, you said you're back to scumreading Drdoolittle. What prompted that exactly?

i guess the coaching idea would be off the table if day talk no exist

What about pregame and night chat? If I was scum with a new player, I'd be going all out giving them advice in the time given.

Page 61:
I don't get the whole preflipping argument. Oka, are we supposed to lynch town reads over scum reads because other people scum read them?

Drodoolittle:
I agree with this:

The argument against voting Vork literally boils down to "Vork does not make rb kill". Everything else on that slot looks p bad.

But not this:

Maybe he didn't realize; maybe he forgot; maybe he thinks, no way my traitor pushes that hard on me.

I just don't see how an interaction like that can be forgotten if he was really taking the time to search for a traitor like that. As for your point about allowing him in LYLO, there are only a handful of players I'd be somewhat comfortable seeing in LYLO in this game or hell any game in the last 6-8 years maybe. Even if that weren't true, Day 1 is the time to talk policy lynches.

_______________

Who would you like to have in LyLo?

What was the reason for asking this?

Page 62:
Creature, you asked why "mbaki confirmed scum" would be a crumb. That's kinda the post I was referring to when I asked if it was too obvious to be a crumb. But if it needs explaining, confirmed implies knowledge rather than just a read. If scum knows they are looking for a traitor, telling them "I know you are scum" can be read as "I know you are scum because I'm your traitor". That's the one thing that has me still feeling a little uneasy about mbaki. I think it means more than the self vote does.

Page 63/64:
I kinda think that the fact that rb couldn't be recruited makes it less likely he crumbed now that I think about it. It still helps avoid the NK, but if that's what he was doing it didn't work. Wouldn't it actually make more sense for him to town read his partners and not be seen as a threat to them? There's also the possibility that scum were thinking along those lines when making their kill which creates a brand of WIFOM that probably isn't worth entertaining. So it's probably best to look at day play rather than crumbs or NKA at this point.

Bright vs mbaki slap fest isn't game related so not much else to say on these two pages.

Page 65:
I should mention I'm feeling a lot better about Creature now than I was on Day 1. He's saying a lot of what I'm thinking. Being open to Vorkuta cases not involving rb is what made me think of it just now. He would have to not see rb's post as a crumb in order to NK him. Whether it was a crumb or not doesn't matter. It's all about what Vorkuta did or did not see and what the intent of his post before rb's was. I'm also coming around on the idea that Bright could be scum. Creature makes a good point that Bright's reads are all consensus reads and regardless of how Bright presents those reads, it's still true that they ARE his reads. Dann also showed that some of Bright's posts focus on whether the lynch can go through or not rather than whether the player he is voting is scum. That may show the mentality of scum trying to get through the game rather than town trying to find scum. I think I'd vote Bright if the choices are him, mbaki, and Vorkuta.

Page 66/67:

when does town self voting play to their win condition

It can be done to get votes off of you. Being townread helps as both alignments. Being scumread hurts as both alignments. It also happens as a genuine emotional reaction, which is poor play but more common than a calculated self vote.

I'm townier than EVERYONE!

like it just feels weird that you haven't ISO'd me yet.

What is the purpose of ISOing someone at this stage of the game who most people would call obvtown?

_________________

Just got an invite to go out for New Year's. Gonna get off the computer while I consider it. 5 pages to go.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Bright

Reasons are in my ISO from Day 2.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Bright

Reasons are in my ISO from Day 2.

Lazy vote. Show why please.

Did the flips change or just reinforce your read on me.

Also, if you truly believe me to be scum, which I doubt, who would my hypothetical scum partner(s) be?

I already showed why yesterday. Flips didn't change anything. I was townreading both players. I'm also not doing preflip associatives. This is the first time I can recall you taking a tone that implies I could be scum. What changed your read? My vote on you? Or am I misreading here?

If I was scum my partner would be MIA for the rest of the day gaurenteed

Can't think of a single reason town says this.

_____________

I don't buy the claim. It's already been said, but no way a one shot investigative says something that could draw a NK N1, draws suspicion Day 2, and STILL holds on to the shot. Why risk not getting a chance to use it like that? It sounds like scum trying to buy another day.

[Kmd4390]

Maybe it's the tone but I never implied that you are scum. I think your vote on me was lazy and it was by telling us to ISO your D2 posts. I'd bet no one ISOd you after that post. I didn't and honestly I don't remeber your reads from D2.

Meh that's fair. All of my day 3 posts including this one have been either right before work or right before bed so they've been rushed.

_________

Dann, I'll give updated reads later today after I've had a chance to read and not just skim. My work schedule has finally relaxed. To answer your question about why I never got a chance to change my vote, vorkuta was lynched before I could catch up. I rarely if ever change my vote when im behind except to remove it entirely.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, back to catching up.

Page 68:
Drdoolittle unvoting after a VT claim is weird. Could be scum wanting to draw out more claims.

Page 69:

We reconsidered DDL D1 after he claimed VT.

What point were you trying to get across with this post?

___________

Oh, Drdoolittle says he townread the VT claim. Meh. That's not entirely unbelievable.

Scum do not necessarily claim PR. That just sounds like a way of retroactively clearing yourself, DDL.

That's actually a good point too. It sounds like "Scum would never claim VT, oh by the way I'm a claimed VT so I can't be scum either". If I have time, I want to go back at some point and look at drdoolittle's scum games to see what he claimed.

Page 70:
Oka, yeah I was busy for most of our last game too, unfortunately. That LYLO was fun though and I was to the point of like posting instead of playing with my kids and stuff which I never do. It was just a fun group and I had days off work at the right time.

Page 71:
I don't get the Varsoon push. I don't have much of a read on him.

Page 72:

Your reads are pretty bad, mbaki. Is that normal?

This was said on Day 2. Town can only know if someone else's reads were bad on three players (yyotta, rb, and themselves). Mbaki claimed to be townreading yyotta (or at least NOT scumreading) despite voting there a couple times (I actually thought mbaki could be a yyotta scum partner before yyotta's flip). RB, most people were wrong on. So the only thing that would stand out as "bad reads" from town-Suka's point of view would be the mbaki scumreading suka. So it feels weird that suka is calling out the accuracy of mbaki's reads now. It's also worth noting that suka's reads on yyotta and rb were similar to mbaki's (town on yyotta, but voted there anyway. town on rb.)

I would love to hear how Leodanny was obvtown, lol.

Really? Again?

Day 3 stuff:
Bright's OMGUS on Dann is pretty bad. Didn't address a single point. Didn't say why Dann's case makes him scum rather than wrong. Just got defensive and voted. Also, I think I already commented on the claim but just in case I didn't, I don't buy it. I don't see any reason he'd actually wait to use a 1-shot investigative. It sounds like scum trying to buy another day. I wouldn't be surprised if he's like a scum rolecop or something looking for another night to get another result. Oka's point about the vig claim is spot on too. A town investigative should never try to make themselves a NK target, especially if they are holding shots for some reason.

Maybe it's the tone but I never implied that you are scum

What did you mean when you said you doubt I believe you to be scum?

Which post is this KMD?

1787

also @KMD, what are your reads right now aside from BEF?

Town on top, scum on bottom:
Dannflor
Creature
OkaPoka
Varsoon
Drdoolittle
mbaki
Suka
BrightEyedFish

i can't tell if he's spectating the game or playing the game.

his decision to stick on suka vanity wagon is sketch bc vanity wagon-ing is sketch. people who vanity wagon when the lynch choices are clear are people who don't want to dirty their hands (which solidifies my question of whether he's actually playing the game or not) (and also people who don't want to dirty their hands = probably scum)

im probably going to go reread DDU kmd iso later to verify some things, b/c i felt like he was similar in that game where he seemed spectator-y up until lylo.

but he's still been scummy so

yeah

Oka didn't you and I have the conversation last game about my work schedule not changing based on alignment in mafia games? When I hit big stretches of time off (like this coming month), I can be active. When I'm working my 16 hour days, I have zero internet access. As for the "vanity wagon" thing, I vote who I want to lynch until it's time to compromise. Had Vorkuta not been lynched while I was away, I would have switched to Bright.

[Kmd4390]

yeah

but what i feel is what i feel

u being obv town and then impossible for me to mislynch happened to correlate directly w lylo

correlation != causation but i guess u can prove me wrong by obv towning now

Meh. I was only obvtown after katyusha did all her hammer tests and I didn't have any possible partners left lmoa

[Kmd4390]

I'm also VT. My only issue with the phrasing of "townie action" is that you don't really have to know what we did because the only thing not covered is targeting the person who was NK'd. However, suka said I was a "no action" before I claimed which scum only knows if they have some kind of result on me and their rolecop died N1.

[Kmd4390]

Suka came right out and said I took no action before I claimed. That would have been a lie that would have been exposed had I taken an action. There's actually a world where someone could see no action as a townie action, although I'd disagree. That could easily be scum who didn't kill that night. Point is, claiming I took no action is risking a lie being exposed. I don't see it the other way around.

[Kmd4390]

I'm gonna be at majiffymeet tonight. Will read up and decide where to vote over the weekend.

[Kmd4390]

Please do.
It's Creature, btw.
And if not, it's Mbaki or DDL.

I'm fucking hammered but....

Wait what? Why's it creature? He's one of my strongest town reads and off the top of my head I can't remember anyone disagreeing we the that so where is this considered from? I don't think it's him.

[Kmd4390]

for some reason, both mbaki and oka's frustrations come off as forced to me in this phase.

Mbaki sounds to me like he thought suka was mislynchable and wanted us to doubt the claim. Where is oka's frustration? I don't remember it and can't find it.

does nobody agree that varsoon is scum here?

Meh. I could see it. The claim felt overexplainy with the whole "I wanted cop" thing. But then again his Day 1 play makes sense as trying to avoid a NK.

__________

Lol I posted last night? I don't remember doing that. Looks like predictive text had it's way with me.

__________

Vote mbaki

[Kmd4390]

If you town read the claim when it was first made, then I misread your intent here:

Suka

[Kmd4390]

Uhhhh. Here:

VOTE: Suka

You fucked up. I'm vt.

[Kmd4390]

After nobody followed you and varsoon and I both said we townread the claim, sure.

[Kmd4390]

I think Suka's definitely town and one of Creature / Oka are scum based on claim/play.

He said this after me. I am on mobile and don't care enough to find your comment.

Who's my partner?

Go back one more page and his posting shows he believes suka's claim. Not sure on a partner. You haven't flipped scum. I could still be wrong. Drdoolittle or varsooon would be my next pick but I haven't checked associatives to see if they make sense with you or not. Off the top of my head drdoolittle probably doesn't though. Why do you say you would never kill Dann? And even if that's the case why should we trust that your buddy wouldn't do it anyway?

__________

Varsoon's page 94 kind of has me coming around to the idea of him being scum too actually. That doesn't sound like town in crunch time. The whole being done with this game and not giving a shit thing. We aren't in a position to have that mentality. Drdoolittle's 2363 is just as bad though. I guess not necessarily scummy, just not a game winning mentality. You can't be picking who you are willing to lose to. The goal is to lynched scum and win.

[Kmd4390]

Is it bad that those two posts make me wonder if varsoon is more likely scum than mbaki?

Unvote

I need to think

[Kmd4390]

2379 and 2380

[Kmd4390]

Not sure. I'm not much of a setup spec guy. I've town read both creature and oka's day play though.

[Kmd4390]

Hmm

[Kmd4390]

it should only activate upon the first death of a power role of their own alignment.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... sal_Backup

Oh. This is actually good though, because if Varsoon is telling the truth about his role that means he is town.

That's a good point for varsoon being town. I also don't see scummbaki pointing that out. Maybe drdoolittle and one of creature/oka really does make the most sense.

[Kmd4390]

Hmm, why did we lynch BEF again?

Mostly the obvious fake claim

[Kmd4390]

Is this where you vote varsoon? I think this is where you vote varsoon.

Not likely for me. I think I'm between mbaki and drdoolittle today. Leaning drdoolittle now because I'm not sure mbaki points out varsoon is likely town if mbaki is scum.

[Kmd4390]

kmd what's your schedule like

I work Wednesday and Thursday then I'm on vacation until like February 8ish

but mbaki points out varsoon is town in a niche scenario so i don't get how this makes mbaki town? or varsoon town?

Hmm?

[Kmd4390]

i dont get why mbaki gets towncred

He seemed convinced it's impossible for varsoon to be scum. Why would he take that option off the table as scum? Especially considering no one else had even hinted at discussing the point he brought up before he did so.

Not as much as I would like. Kmd and Varsoon have also both played with him a ton, the latter has made his stance clear but I would like to know what the former thinks.

Have I played with creature a ton? I didn't think so. But either way I think my opinion of his day play is clear too. I've been town reading him.

[Kmd4390]

He seemed convinced it's impossible for varsoon to be scum

is that your whole argument of mbaki town over me? I spent like 2 pages trying to convince oka that varsoon is town?

When I get on my computer later tonight I'll Ctrl+f varsoons name in your ISO, but it was specifically the way mbaki used setup info from the wiki to show a new belief that varsoon must be confirmed town while I was deciding whether to vote mbaki or varsoon.

[Kmd4390]

He seemed convinced it's impossible for varsoon to be scum

is that your whole argument of mbaki town over me? I spent like 2 pages trying to convince oka that varsoon is town?

When I get on my computer later tonight I'll Ctrl+f varsoons name in your ISO, but it was specifically the way mbaki used setup info from the wiki to show a new belief that varsoon must be confirmed town while I was deciding whether to vote mbaki or varsoon.

So I did this and you're actually right. Your "smoking gun that varsoon is town" comment was one that I thought I'd remembered mbaki had made. So now I'm even more confused than I was.

[Kmd4390]

V/LA until Friday night

because apparently I have to do a 40 fucking hour shift. Not at all amused right now.

[Kmd4390]

Ugh 14 pages. Will try to do it tonight. Hopefully very soon.

[Kmd4390]

So I still need to read, but I was thinking before I started and I'm realizing that my reason for thinking mbaki and drdoolittle could both be town is coming from the fact that I think Varsoon is town. After I catch up, I need to look back at mbaki's point and see if Varsoon is actually clear because I feel like not everyone felt he was and if he's scum, maybe it's as simple as mbaki or drdoolittle is just his partner. I'm gonna read now though.

[Kmd4390]

VOTE: Suka

You fucked up. I'm vt.

N1 - Varsoon - no action (consistent with claim)
N2 - mbaki - towny action, no need to claim
N3 - kmd - towny action, no need to claim

VT is not "townie action", it's no action.

Why I don't get paranoid of mbaki rn

Why can't that just be scum who didn't act N2 and wants an investigative role lynched?

________________

I'm not gonna be able to do this now, sorry. My mind is fried and I need a good night's sleep. Maybe I'll try again tonight, but tomorrow is looking more likely. I don't go back to work until February 5 so once I get caught up, I'm here a lot more.

[Kmd4390]

VOTE: Suka

You fucked up. I'm vt.

N1 - Varsoon - no action (consistent with claim)
N2 - mbaki - towny action, no need to claim
N3 - kmd - towny action, no need to claim

VT is not "townie action", it's no action.

Why I don't get paranoid of mbaki rn

Why can't that just be scum who didn't act N2 and wants an investigative role lynched?

________________

I'm not gonna be able to do this now, sorry. My mind is fried and I need a good night's sleep. Maybe I'll try again tonight, but tomorrow is looking more likely. I don't go back to work until February 5 so once I get caught up, I'm here a lot more.

You are aware deadline is a bit over a day from now, right?

I am now.

I'll try to keep checking in, but I'm behind...

[Kmd4390]

Hi, who's here?

Me. What do you think of mbaki looking into varsoon's role to clear him? What about drdoolittle's comment about a smoking gun that varsoon is town?

[Kmd4390]

Moon,

mbaki's:

Hold up

why wouldn't UB inherit rolecop?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... sal_Backup

Oh. This is actually good though, because if Varsoon is telling the truth about his role that means he is town.

drdoolitte's:

@ Oka see this sequence. Suppose Varsoon was not backup, and lied about visiting and getting no action on creature. Then if Suka's n3 investigation was actually on creature, OR if suka's n3 action is on varsoon, then his claim is immediately poked through. This seems to me like a smoking gun varsoon is town.

Who are you scumreading, kmd?

Mbaki is probably my strongest scum read and the above is the only thing holding me back although it makes some sense if Varsoon is also scum. I can also see Drdoolittle.

[Kmd4390]

Moon
Creature
Oka
Varsoon
Drdoolittle
Mbaki

[Kmd4390]

We should mass claim
I'm fairly certain we might be able to get a lynch in the right direction with that.

Mbaki can go first.

Aight then. DDL claim first.

Last three should be mbaki, Creature, then me?

OH WOW IT'S LIKE OKA IS FULL OF SHIT

Actually, what made you go from mbaki claiming first to just before you and Creature?

I'm still trying to work out who the second scum is, however Creature does seem to have a point about a possible Oka/Varsoon team due to the amount of what appears to be flailing going on ITT

I'm curious how you see that with the way they've gone back and forth. If it was theater, why would Oka even point out what he saw as fake rage from Varsoon?

I'm quite concerned that these early posts from the scum traitor are signalling to the scum team, assuming they were aware they had a traitor.

This was my thought too when we talked about that, but I think we established that it didn't make sense for the traitor to crumb.

_____________

Hitting submit because I'm doing things on multiple tabs and don't wanna lose my post lol.

[Kmd4390]

I'd still like to lynch in mbaki/drdoolittle.

[Kmd4390]

Vote mbaki

[Kmd4390]

Varsoon clearly has no team.

Why can't he be scum with mbaki or drdoolittle?

______________

Preview edit: mbaki has pushed drdoolittle hard enough that they probably aren't scum together. I don't usually worry about associative tells until after the flip but if mbaki were to flip town, I'd probably vote drdoolittle. If he were to flip scum, I'd either vote Varsoon or re-evaluate oka and creature to see if one of them makes sense as scum.

[Kmd4390]

Why can't he be scum with mbaki or drdoolittle?

The only person he makes sense as scum with is Creature based on role claims, though that's unlikely as he's been tunneling Creature since mass-claim. If Varsoon is scum his claim is brilliant. I'm willing to bet money he isn't scum.

I've talked about this earlier.

I don't remember it. Why are VT claims clear from being scum with him? If just quoting an old post will answer, that's fine.

If anyone flips town today then we are at Lylo tomorrow. You can't afford to lynch people to make associatives at this point.

Agreed. You lynch who you think is most likely to flip scum.

[Kmd4390]

Moon, that's fair. So there probably is scum in Oka/Creature then.

[Kmd4390]

@mbaki^

@kmd: my strongest team is still oka/mbaki. We can't really go wrong either way but if you voted Oka I'd probably be less paranoid and so would town tomorrow at Lylo.

Unvote

Lemme think.

[Kmd4390]

I'm townreading Creature.

Mbaki/Drdoolittle probably only had one scum.

I'm not entertaining the idea of moon scum.

If Varsoon has to be town, then Oka has to be scum unless I'm wrong about some of the above.

I dunno. I'm more sure of mbaki on play, but oka almost has to be scum here, right?

Ugh I hate late game lol. Decisions are hard.

[Kmd4390]

Decisions are hard.

Would it be fair to leave the hammer decision to Kmd?

God please no lol. I don't want to be wrong. Talk to me about Varsoon though. Why do you still think he can be scum?

Deadline ending when like everyone will be completely asleep doesn't help.

When is it? I'm usually up late.

[Kmd4390]

I agree, though I thought that was already the plan.

Meanwhile, that doesn't give us space to sort out myself / DDL / Kmd.

You should have each day to sort yourselves. If Creature flips scum he could realistically be a buddy to any of you.

The VT claims that are town are never getting NK'd though. Maybe it makes more sense to sort us first...

[Kmd4390]

Wanted to think over things more but eh
VOTE: DDL
I don't think this is gonna flip scum, though.
I really think my solve is right.

Ugh then why vote there after Moon said he'd hammer?

[Kmd4390]

oh, deadline is in 7 hours. Yeah, I'll be sleeping.

[Kmd4390]

Both roles could be bs, which I can see, and which you may have slipped when you said you thought both scum were VT claims.

Your x-shot role doesn't make sense with the UB. Oka's role doesn't make sense full stop. Oka wouldn't leave Suka alone about whether or not she was x-shot. You defended my push on Oka by asking me to prove his role didn't make sense.

My role can be proved if Varsoon targets me

Also, why tf would Oka fakeclaim ascetic if Suka hinted targeting Oka?

Could be scum ascetic.

[Kmd4390]

well there isnt 4 of us so it doesnt really matter lets get back to talking about how lynching me would be bad and lynching mbaki might be good

The discussion on Varsoon is still beneficial though because it helps me sort you.

[Kmd4390]

dammit.

I was just voting mbaki and that came up as a preview edit and now I'm scared to be wrong because I'd be hammer.

[Kmd4390]

ugh....

[Kmd4390]

HOUSTON HAVE THE LEAD

fuck...

[Kmd4390]

And Kmd, can you actually look at my DDL case before you vote me here? Because if you're town I very strongly believe that you should be able to see what I see there.

Can you quote it?

[Kmd4390]

viewtopic.php?p=10654937#p10654937 viewtopic.php?p=10655143#p10655143
I very much feel like both my original case, and then his awful reply are kind of slam dunk. He didn't refute my reply.

2267 isn't the case, is it? Because if so....ummm?

[Kmd4390]

viewtopic.php?p=10654937#p10654937 viewtopic.php?p=10655143#p10655143
I very much feel like both my original case, and then his awful reply are kind of slam dunk. He didn't refute my reply.

2267 isn't the case, is it? Because if so....ummm?

No, its the response to his response to the case, which is also incriminating.

viewtopic.php?p=10654937#p10654937 2250 is the case, the link didn't work in the layered quote.

That sounds like he's scum for changing his real on you from town to scum.

[Kmd4390]

I need to ISO Oka.

[Kmd4390]

If I was scum with oka why wouldn't I have hammered you when creature voted and I was ready to vote you anyway

[Kmd4390]

Weren't around? I dunno.
I don't think it's you, though.
I think the solve is probably Mbaki/DDL.

This was at mbaki. I was around. I did a preview edit and took the vote out of the post.

to make it believable? after Moon had just shaded you and Oka as a possible team, you lol hammering would not have flied.

Sure it would. It was already clear I was leaning toward a vote on you. The next day would have been LYLO. And everyone was all over the place already.

Kmd has much worse play here than I'm used to from him

If you're familiar with me, you know I'm very good as scum. My weakest role is VT. And if you're talking about activity, my work schedule determines that, not my alignment.

[Kmd4390]

Nah my good at scum usually has people saying that they'd rather lose to me than other people because I've been so obvtown. I usually bus at least one buddy or have some awesome claim. Something that makes me obvtown. When I'm way off base or lacking confidence, those are my VT games.

[Kmd4390]

Probably an open setup or one where gamestate was already in my favor.

[Kmd4390]

Not sure what to make of oka's ISO by the way except that varsoon is likely town.

His day 1, drdoolittle interests me. He makes a few comments towards drdoolittle, pushes a yyotta Lynch, puts drdoolittle at l-1, and switches back after the VT claim. Part of me wonders if he'd put his buddy at l-1 and just back off like that.

Day 2 is where I see the most notable mbaki stuff. If he thought Bright had a real guilty and saw rbs post as damning crumbs, it makes sense he'd go full bus on a buddy who he didn't really go after day 1.

[Kmd4390]

If he believes you have a cop guilty on you and damning crumbs from the traitor, he may have felt like he had no other choice.

[Kmd4390]

I kinda think you're intentionally trying to make it sound ridiculous and it just isn't.

[Kmd4390]

A little misleading kmd. Your claim is constrained by Sukas result on you.

Could always be x shot or a passive role of some sort

[Kmd4390]

You're just trying to force a narrative if you're gonna tell me oka needs coaching.

[Kmd4390]

Did suka even have a went nowhere result on oka? I don't think he needed a passive claim there.

[Kmd4390]

Actually yeah none of this is you trying to sort
[

Vote mbaki

[Kmd4390]

I'm actually cool with doing me then mbaki. I really don't think it's drdoolittle.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

I hadn't thought of that. I don't think oka would submit the kill over mbaki unless mbaki was a scum power role and suka's result shows he isn't.