In post 8738, DrewVa wrote:, while sending the sticky fruit to TLK, thus generating a mechanical 1v1 between the supersaint and the variant role inventor.
in this theory, someone, probably S_S, came up with the idea to create a mechanical cross-claim between two town, by using the jailkeep to create wifom in addition to BEF's role, which here would presumably be an every-night sticky fruit vendor.
So BEF n1 -- fruits profii
BEF n2 -- fruit sTLK
BEF n3 -- Maybe Elsa (if Elsa is scum BP)?
BEF n4 -- maybe Jingle (if Jingle is not town commuter)?
like bearing in mind how many people have either acted like commuters, have some sort of ascetic modifier, or have had a wide range of actions fail on them, it is not impossible that a scum sticky fruit vendor has in fact been vending sticky fruit to scum.
This is the line of reasoning I believe that Jingle was following (which would imply perhaps that Jingle is actually a town commuter perhaps), that is, that scum sticky fruit vendor would make sense in a setup where there are so many loyalized actions, where players like Profii can create loyalized visitors, etc. etc. From a setup/design perspective, BEF's role sounds like a scum counter to Profii's role, although that in and of itself should not convince anyone, just something I noticed.
Additionally, there is an argument to be made that the sticky fruit vendor is at best a kind of town miller. It is a role that, unless modified with a pro-town modifier like loyal, is explicitly anti-utility, given town's need to create mechanical clears through loyal/disloyal actions.
When we are thinking about BEF's play, another question emerges: BEF says he vended to profii n1 because he was worried he would die and he wanted to use it. But, BEF had entered a boonus room where he saw that he could get a loyal modifier, potentially. This being the case, why would he not hold his sticky fruit shot and ask to be gifted a loyal modifier, which would in effect turn his negative utility action for town (vending sticky fruit) into a pro-town action?
So there is at least some merit to Jingle's argument that BEF may be a useful lynch to eliminate wifom regardless of role, ESPECIALLY if we do conclude that this is a true mechanical 1v1 between Profii and BEF. Given Creature's testimony that he has not been made loud, this reinforces the evidence pointing toward a true mechanical 1v1.
For BEF scum there are:
-Arguments from setup spec (sticky fruit vendor seems like a pro-scum role)
-Arguments from play (pushing the dayrep theory, although actually there was one little part of that I didn't hate, but he's way over-emphasized it)
-Arguments for eliminating wifom (if we are wrong, profii should be caught scum, and at least we would know there are not additional sticky fruit floating around the setup, eliminating the strength of our clears)
For BEF town though there are:
-Arguments from tone (his frustration with me in particular in certain respects could easily come from town)
-Arguments from motive (it's not clear why he claimed in the way he did today as scum; and if he did, it may have been a mistake)
vs.
For Profii scum there is:
-Arguments from presence (I feel like profii usually has a bit more presence in the thread as town)
For Profii town there is:
-Arguments from pro-town actions and attentiveness (Profii made PP loyal, because profii believed that PP was a fruit vendor. This suggests profii was actively thinking about how to use his role in a pro-town way from very early on in the game)
-Arguments from tone (Profii has seemed pretty genuinely confused by today's discussion)
-Arguments from point of view (Profii was aware that he could vend a sticky fruit and use a night action at the same time, which is not something I would have thought was possible, but is possible--him knowing this increases the plausibility at least that he did intend to actually send the sticky fruit to a different target than his night action)
Given I believe there are some arguments on each side, this also raises another question:
Should town resolve this 1v1 today? We have multiple loyal/disloyal actions, etc. And here we might consider Jingle's argument -- if we're wrong about BEF, we will have significantly more wifom in regard to proving night actions. Even a green flip on BEF as a mislynch is not explicitly bad for the town in terms of helping us solve the game and create the strongest pro-town endgame.
While N&M may not be keen on the idea, my preference would be for him to be leashed to PenguinPower, to ensure that Penguin gets his fruit off tonight and is alive tomorrow.
-d
![:]](./images/smilies/icon_smiling.png "Cheerful Smile"){kind=icon}
