Mini 2052: Downtown Train Mafia - Game Over!

[RCEnigma]

Pre-game tailgate!

[RCEnigma]

I like you more than Elsa already. Don't tell Elsa I said that.

[RCEnigma]

My grass is grey....and also made out of concrete.

[RCEnigma]

Fire up the coal! VOTE: Allomancer

[RCEnigma]

Darth can sit with me, but I want the window seat.

[RCEnigma]

Only 2 more votes and then we can wagon Bambi for bussing.

[RCEnigma]

It's likely only 2 scum right? Boy this will be a quick game.

[RCEnigma]

What did you find scummy?

[RCEnigma]

Only 2 more votes and then we can wagon Bambi for bussing.

This is a train, Moron. Not a bus.

VOTE: Bambi

L-2 by page 2, surely the worst offense we can trump up by page 3.

Boo to the mod, for forcing me to change my board theme due to pink text.
Boo to the site for not making mafSepia default.

First point: your power means nothing here. I know the truth.

Second point: Maf!Sepia is still good as long as you change the brightness on your screen to read lighter colors.

Welp didn't deny it, we can boot Bambi off the train next. Preferably in motion. Would like Allomancer lynched by page 5.

[RCEnigma]

Why is Bambi scummy or why do I want to kill Allomancer?

[RCEnigma]

Why is Bambi scummy or why do I want to kill Allomancer?

Let's go with both. Mostly Allomancer.

Was mostly how easily a wagon built up in combination with Bambi's vote. She(?) Is right that early wagons mean jack shit. Building the wagon quickly is a decent way to get attention away from a partner.

Slots are generally going to be reluctant to revisit a wagon that's fallen apart so early. Also, not sure what to think of Robert being so jumpy.

[RCEnigma]

Why is Bambi scummy or why do I want to kill Allomancer?

Let's go with both. Mostly Allomancer.

Was mostly how easily a wagon built up in combination with Bambi's vote. She(?) Is right that early wagons mean jack shit. Building the wagon quickly is a decent way to get attention away from a partner.

Slots are generally going to be reluctant to revisit a wagon that's fallen apart so early. Also, not sure what to think of Robert being so jumpy.

Wait so why do I need to die?

Well if I don't kill you now.....I'll look like a jerk.

[RCEnigma]

Also why me = fry me so I'm content with this Lynch.

[RCEnigma]

Very tinfoil-y does that make it untrue or implausible?

I also never said the wagon itself was scum-indicative, though what happened within it could be.

[RCEnigma]

Wagons on scum are always pro town. All aboard......even though we're already....all aboard.

[RCEnigma]

Very tinfoil-y does that make it untrue or implausible?

I also never said the wagon itself was scum-indicative, though what happened within it could be.

As plausible as you being buddies with Allo and placing a distancing vote initially.

@NSG: Yeah, the pop-in does feel slightly Wolfy.

~Auro

Maybe. Probably don't use an rvs vote in that case, then tell everyone the plan.

Plus the seed would have already been subconsciously planted and I could have jumped to another wagon already.

@NSG yes those are my only completed scum games on site.

Long story short they are both very lurky/uninvolved games on my part.

[RCEnigma]

With that I'll say I'm not a big fan of meta. I assume anyone I play with is self aware enough to somewhat replicate their town game and don't find scum meta a good measure in games or playerlists that don't have any correlation.

[RCEnigma]

Maybe. Probably don't use an rvs vote in that case, then tell everyone the plan.

Plus the seed would have already been subconsciously planted and I could have jumped to another wagon already.

You're describing possible plays *if* it was actually you distancing, but this still doesn't make it any less plausible IMO. Like if Jay and Allo were buddies, could've placed the RVS vote there in the first place too - anything is possible, but jumping to a conclusion that it's scum bussing is far-fetched.

~Auro

I'm also describing why it isn't optimal in my position. The Jay and Allo thing is exactly what I was saying. If I'm not evaluating possible scum interactions what should I be evaluating at this point?

Do you scumread me for my reads? If not why is it your main source of attention?

[RCEnigma]

I'm also describing why it isn't optimal in my position. The Jay and Allo thing is exactly what I was saying. If I'm not evaluating possible scum interactions what should I be evaluating at this point?

Do you scumread me for my reads? If not why is it your main source of attention?

My fundamental disagreement here is that it's a lot more tinfoily to make double accusations and thus a less accurate method of scumhunting, at the same time being easier to fake believably.

Of course, I can't prove that, and I'm absolutely trying to sort you through this interaction, if that's what you're asking. On a surface-level your reads feel scummy; but I'm trying to probe through your own thought processes here and explore them.

~Auro

As a by product? You haven't asked anything that leads me to believe you're reading my motivation. Feels more like picking apart why X can't be true or Y isn't possible.

I'm keeping the window seat btw.

[RCEnigma]

As a by product? You haven't asked anything that leads me to believe you're reading my motivation. Feels more like picking apart why X can't be true or Y isn't possible.

I'm doing exactly that by calling out why X/Y is tinfoily/unlikely/whatever and making you defend against it, while noting the fundamental disagreement we're sharing expecting a response on it.

"Why are you doing X? I think it's wrong" is functionally equivalent to "Hey, you're doing X and I think it's wrong".

Anyway - do you actually believe that reading off interactions through a W-W lens is actually more efficient than gauging individual scum equities?

~Auro

@mod, apologies for the slip. Quoting here, please delete that post

Done ~ LA

I was doing exactly that when explaining my qualms with Bambi. I didn't have a read on Allomancers slot until Bambi's vote because I asked myself what a town!Bambi vote would mean and why and then did the same with Scum!Bambi.

Bambi's individual scum equity related directly with Allomancer in my opinion.

If I'm assuming 2 scum in a 10 person game then 1 in 5 slots is scum. Chances are on a wagon of 4 people (myself, Darth, Robert, Bambi) with the wagonee included there is at least 1 scum in that grouping. Bambi's vote stuck out to me as the scummiest.

It's a wagon that likely won't go anywhere. Since town will be hesitant to force a claim. No one should be claiming btw, given the scum win con. Anyway, if it's a wagon that isn't going anywhere then there isn't much incentive for scum to join the wagon aside from distancing.

Is this any more or less plausible now?

[RCEnigma]

I was doing exactly that when explaining my qualms with Bambi. I didn't have a read on Allomancers slot until Bambi's vote because I asked myself what a town!Bambi vote would mean and why and then did the same with Scum!Bambi.

Bambi's individual scum equity related directly with Allomancer in my opinion.

Town!Bambi could vote there because wagons, because reactions. It's a pretty generic action to bring someone to L-2.

Scum!Bambi could also vote there because it's a generic move, and thus no real harm to do as scum.

I still can't see why bussing is any more probable here. Anyway, aside from that - If your read on Allo is informed by Jay being scum voting there, why would you vote Allo over Jay?

If I'm assuming 2 scum in a 10 person game then 1 in 5 slots is scum. Chances are on a wagon of 4 people (myself, Darth, Robert, Bambi) with the wagonee included there is at least 1 scum in that grouping. Bambi's vote stuck out to me as the scummiest.

This sounds like you're explaining the obvious. Of course if you take any random set of 4-5 players there's prolly scum in there, statistically. The last statement about Jay's vote being scummy is independent of that. Feels empty.

It's a wagon that likely won't go anywhere. Since town will be hesitant to force a claim. No one should be claiming btw, given the scum win con. Anyway, if it's a wagon that isn't going anywhere then there isn't much incentive for scum to join the wagon aside from distancing.

We will have to lynch someone, so tell me the disadvantage of claiming at L-1 with intent? I don't see how claiming at ITH is detrimental.
Why wouldn't the wagon go anywhere? I'm feeling your thought process here is:
1. Claiming at any time is bad;
2. Wagons are useless because of (1);
3. Scum believes (1) & (2);
4. Scum hence wouldn't wagon unless they're bussing.

Am I right?

-A

We don't know how many crewmembers there are. Every claim gets scum closer to their wincon but doesn't get town closer to ours. Of 10 slots scum only have to hunt down in what I assume is 8 slots. I just think any claims are antitown except in endgame situations.

I literally voted Allo to start the game. I don't start the game with the knowledge of who scum is so that's a rather silly question. If you are asking why I didn't move my vote to Jay it's because I think both Allo and Jay are scum. Still a silly question, my stance is pretty clear.

[RCEnigma]

We don't know how many crewmembers there are. Every claim gets scum closer to their wincon but doesn't get town closer to ours. Of 10 slots scum only have to hunt down in what I assume is 8 slots. I just think any claims are antitown except in endgame situations.

At L-1 with intent, whatever slot's

going to be lynched anyway

.
So the crew member claims, and your worry is that scum kills them in the night.
But if they

don't

claim and we lynch them, they die anyway.
Which means we don't get a scumlynch that day, and scum aren't gated to that nightkill and we sure-fire lose town that night.
Obviously they should claim if they're about to be hammered.

I literally voted Allo to start the game. I don't start the game with the knowledge of who scum is so that's a rather silly question. If you are asking why I didn't move my vote to Jay it's because I think both Allo and Jay are scum. Still a silly question, my stance is pretty clear.

Jay's position on the wagon made you think Jay's scummily associated to Allo.
If X does something that's indicative of X being scumbuddies with Y, I assert it's better to lynch X first and not Y.
Besides, you haven't answered whether my read of your thought process was right.
If it is, then it's very far-fetched/wonky and I'm placing a FoS on your slot.

Moving our vote to TonyMontana, for reasons I've stated earlier.
VOTE: TonyMontana

If you argue that jays vote A) wasn't suspicious and B) could come as town or scum why would my order matter for you? If they aren't both scum then one of the two is.

With the outlier being this chainsaw in Jays favor(?) Not sure your position on many slots besides scumreading me and nullreading Amor.

But then your vote on Tony is based on him starting a counterwagon to Allomancer. That would connect Tony to Allomancer anyways. The way you've argued with me makes it seem like you think both Jay and Allomancer could be town here, what's scummy about a counterwagon to town then?

[RCEnigma]

But not Robert jumping ship at L-2?

I still maintain any claim is antitown.

If the read on Jay was independent of Allow may agree and probably would have moved the vote. The two are intertwined in my mind. I understand I could be wrong in my assumption but that doesn't make either slot more or less likely to be town or scum.

[RCEnigma]

The time to be more serious is now. Voting and unvote in the same post is annoying and shows your unable to commit.

@rce, maybe I didn't like something and unvoted. Your going to jump to conclusions and not ask questions.

Wasn't Accusing it, or you. I was comparing it to a similar action to show Darth was being choosy with what they found scummy or didn't.

[RCEnigma]

Choo Choo! I don't know why I keep thinking this is my geriatric game and my geriatric game is my train game.

I feel like this game is a bit stuck in the station, if you know what I mean. (It's a train pun because trains live in stations)

@RCEnigma I am having trouble following what you are saying about Robert and Darth right now, could you give your thoughts on both slots to make it easy for an idiot (me)?

Both town.

[RCEnigma]

Because I scumread Allo and Jay. Also don't know how Robert plays but the open vote flailing seems more towny than powerwolfing.

[RCEnigma]

But not Robert jumping ship at L-2?

Oh, I didn't catch that.
I went back and read up the context there; his unvoting doesn't feel scummy -- given his reaction was something like "Woah, never expected this to wagon so fast".

I still maintain any claim is antitown.

Hmm. Okay.

If the read on Jay was independent of Allow may agree and probably would have moved the vote. The two are intertwined in my mind. I understand I could be wrong in my assumption but that doesn't make either slot more or less likely to be town or scum.

Apart from Allo-Jay, are there other slots pinging you?

Not really, NSG is the only other slot with posts that aren't white noise so I'll townlean her for now and null on the rest.

Also I'm not ignoring your question NSG I'm just putting it off until I get a chance to sit and gather my thoughts.

[RCEnigma]

What's it called when you misrep multiple people at once?

I'm the only person that called your vote out. Darth has been pretty adamant in defending you to be honest, albeit not directly.

Why is it stupid for someone that doesn't know your alignment to guess your alignment based on actions you take?

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: Robert2424

Don't post if you're not going to contribute to the game. Most of your posts are unproductive.

Empty post about empty posting looks bad.

Because I had nothing productive to say. Spamposting accomplishes nothing.

There's more than enough accusations being thrown out at this point. Surely you have an opinion by this post. This isn't the only apathetic slot however for what it's worth.

VOTE: Robert2424

Don't post if you're not going to contribute to the game. Most of your posts are unproductive.

Who's posts are productive right now?

I don't know we have had enough contributing to the game to really say that being unproductive is really throwing us off the rails. (Like that one? It's train puns all around today!)

Also, is this just a policy lynch vote?

Not policy lynch, pressure. You really think we're lynching this early?

More empty posting. What good is your vote if there is nothing behind it. Not a line of logic, an opinion, a stance? Voting without hunting isnt very helpful. It also seems there's no evaluation going into the vote so that's concerning. It's scummy in my opinion to throw votes for "pressure" without doing any leg work. Voting for pressure is just a buzz phrase that appears townie.

I think what you'll find is I will tend to be more liberal than my vote than most, switching it around a lot, so long as it doesn't put someone at L-1 or hammer before I'm confident that they should be lynched.

My confirmation bias makes me confident you should be lynched, what do you think of that?

[RCEnigma]

You assume I'm playing Mafia, when in reality I'm playing connect 4.

You assume my actions mean something day 1.

You assume I even read your post just now.

I actually assumed you hadn't read any of the posts up to this point.

[RCEnigma]

Your partner must have told you there were accusations against you.

[RCEnigma]

Hence indirect. But I agree the reactions from Bambi are poor, though Allo's don't feel townie either.

One scum is better than none.

VOTE: Bambi Jay

[RCEnigma]

North, Allomancer, and Robert are ICs now. Tony and Amor's vote are also probably what the scum used as a leapboard, so I clear them.

There, I cleared 5 of the townies for you. Plus me, that equals 6. With you that's 7 if you dont hammer.

Top notch and I definitely don't want to Lynch Bambi now, said this guy...sarcastically.

[RCEnigma]

That guy also said the previous statement prematurely. Pretty sure I just want Allomancer to be the lynch today. I still don't like your reactions. Allomancer flipping scum would just make me even more sure that you're scum. Even your fos at TGP is weak, he's been picking mostly at you in a majority of his posts. Feels like you're omgusing him right now.

Not sure why him specifically though.

[RCEnigma]

You assume I'm playing Mafia, when in reality I'm playing connect 4.

You assume my actions mean something day 1.

You assume I even read your post just now.

The difference between Allomancer and me is that im honest in not wanting to do shit for town. He tries to not do stuff but make it look like he's working.

I'm not scum, just a bored terrorist with nothing to lose.

Excuse me, what the fuck? The point of playing Mafia is to actually, ya know, play Mafia. You can't just claim whoever hammers is scum and be done with it. Even if you are town-aligned, you are completely useless to the town if you don't even intend to

try

to help. While yes, there probably is some scum on your wagon, the wagon built so quickly because you appear to not even be trying, and if you're town, that's not helping your wincon.

Who do you think are the scum on the wagon?

[RCEnigma]

NSG I believe you but do you recall what game you mislynched Jay? And do you have any other games with Jay? Scum or town, either would be helpful.

[RCEnigma]

So....that happened UNVOTE:

I'll read through that game in a bit, unless that's the lovers game in which case I've been through Bambi's iso.

Besides that a few things, I don't agree with Bambi clearing slots that didn't vote. If there are only 2 scum it's very likely they will vote one on one off on wagons that could end in a lynch. I think Bambi's could have so I also don't agree with slots saying a lynch was unlikely.

This may be a playstyle thing but don't join a wagon for the sake of it. I voted Bambi because I intended to lynch there. This voting for pressure thing always rubs me the wrong way.

Still feel Allo is a good lynch, it may not be Allo/Bambi but Allo's poor grasp on the game seems like lost scum to me.

[RCEnigma]

Want a TLDR?

[RCEnigma]

Sad the town literally had all the energy in the world to try and mob-Lynch me but suddenly when it's TGP's turn your all quiet.

Glad to know where the motivation is here.

Well I want Allo dead and everyone else says town so, meh. I'd Lynch Tony's slot as well now for...reasons.

[RCEnigma]

Don't know how I feel about being townspewed, Bambi call me scum q.q

[RCEnigma]

Sad the town literally had all the energy in the world to try and mob-Lynch me but suddenly when it's TGP's turn your all quiet.

Glad to know where the motivation is here.

Well I want Allo dead and everyone else says town so, meh. I'd Lynch Tony's slot as well now for...reasons.

Why do you want me dead?

Also, town falling silent could be suspicious, but speaking for myself personally, I was kinda excited when the game first started, but now I'm not really interested at this point. There's also a serious momentum situation: when the game slows down, there's less to post about, so the game slows down even more.

Well you still haven't posted about anything....like at all. Brass may not like readslists but at the very least humor me with one.

Because at the moment no one knows where you fall one way or the other. I wouldn't call it fencesitting, more like benchsitting. Which is why I don't get all of the townreads on your slot.

[RCEnigma]

I'd do that but I'm too lazy.

Honestly I'll put my actual effort into this game tommorow and see why TGP is scummy or if I notice something else.

You had one job.

[RCEnigma]

With that I'll say I'm not a big fan of meta. I assume anyone I play with is self aware enough to somewhat replicate their town game and don't find scum meta a good measure in games or playerlists that don't have any correlation.

Hence indirect. But I agree the reactions from Bambi are poor, though Allo's don't feel townie either.

One scum is better than none.

VOTE: Bambi Jay

Makes a case on me a few posts earlier, votes Bambi with no reasoning attached.
If scum can always replicate a town game, scumhunting would therefore be useless? Bad logic is bad.

That guy also said the previous statement prematurely. Pretty sure I just want Allomancer to be the lynch today. I still don't like your reactions. Allomancer flipping scum would just make me even more sure that you're scum. Even your fos at TGP is weak, he's been picking mostly at you in a majority of his posts. Feels like you're omgusing him right now.

Not sure why him specifically though.

Wants to lynch me, still voting Bambi at this point.

Looking through RCE's ISO, I pulled the most standout posts, but there seems to be a general trend of self-contradiction and do as i say, not as i do.
VOTE: RCEnigma

Unfortunately the early wagon on you means slot probably aren't going to come back to voting you. I made the case for you AND Bambi so voting Bambi when your wagon broke down isn't a stretch.

The fact your wagon broke down arbitrarily should tell town something but to each their own.

[RCEnigma]

I completely blanked and thought Robert was posting to himself.

[RCEnigma]

I completely blanked and thought Robert was posting to himself.

Racist.....

Woah! I don't even see fur patterns.

[RCEnigma]

Which is a much lesser crime than premeditated murder.

[RCEnigma]

I see the unvote on brass as trying to backtrack, and I don't like it. I think Tony is scum, and nothing I've seen from you has shown otherwise.

So you can unvote Bambi after making a big case there and saying this slot has to go, just because you trust NSG's meta. And when I unvote after few people said Brass is their strong townread and Brass gives an answer (he's right, nobody asked him any questions), that makes me scum. Please explain, what else makes you think I'm scum. And I mean ME, not Tony, because I am not Tony. And Tony wrote 5sentences so make your case on sth else than that, please.

Looking through RCE's ISO, I pulled the most standout posts, but there seems to be a general trend of self-contradiction and do as i say, not as i do.
VOTE: RCEnigma

Can you elaborate this general trend of self-contradiction? Because I only see someone saying you and Bambi are scum throughout the game...

I'm not sure I understand the second sentence, but I agree with the first. Munch, can you please commit and place a vote if you think that Allo is contradicting themselves?

I was just saying that RCE suspected Allo and Bambi before and wasn't contradicting himself, so I wanted some examples from Allo. And I don't think Allo was contradicting himself. I think he took a post or two out of context and then exaggerated to make RCE look bad and so he could defend voting him. The reason I didn't vote for him was, because I wanted to vote for you but was having second thoughts about putting someone who won't even be here for 4 days to L-1.

Yeah but NSG did a thing. No one did a thing for TGP.

Allo still scum VOTE: Allomancer

Chugga chugga chugga chugga

[RCEnigma]

The first part of your response munch. There's a reason his unvote is justifiable.

Brass I'm not sure, without Bambi I still feel Allo's play is individually scummy.

[RCEnigma]

Good luck with the lottery man.

[RCEnigma]

Agreed, it's weird you would be aware of his interaction with Allo, but pull the same thing with Munch. WHILE talking about it! That's weird...

[RCEnigma]

@TGP not Munch sorry.

[RCEnigma]

to be clear, i don't townread allo or TGP but out of the two i feel like TGP is more likely to flip scum whereas i feel like allo is more likely to just be a mislynch

About where I am, I still want Allo over TGP but I'm fine with either.

I didn't really have a read on TGP either way until Robert voted Brass but I'd be getting into my tinfoil theories again so.

[RCEnigma]

VOTE: TGP

Doesn't look like Allo is gonna get the votes he needs.

[RCEnigma]

L-1

[RCEnigma]

Oh is it 6?

[RCEnigma]

Meow.

[RCEnigma]

Sure Munch. It just reads like a counterpush to get attention away from scumpartner TGP.

If Robert started prodding at Brass or brought up literally anything he felt was a discrepancy with Brass' play in order to spark conversation I probably wouldn't feel the same way.

The way he just voted Brass though seems like taking advantage of an apathetic gamestate.

[RCEnigma]

I don't think TGP is going to flip scum, but he also doesn't seem like he's going to contribute to the town, so I will vote him before the deadline if need be.

Then why not vote now?

[RCEnigma]

Auros back and forth with me day 1 should have set off all of the alarm bells. Especially over the viability of claiming in this setup.

I don't think I was a threat or giving off crew vibes so dying night 1 was...disappointing.

But yeah this turned from slippery slope to avalanche with the tgp Lynch and the big shot being off in the first night cycle.