[Game Over] Open 743 - The Crown of Misery

[Succinct]

VOTE: Creature
He got a prod.

Valid lead.
VOTE: Creature

[Succinct]

Nako

> BBMolla = Something_Smart > Malakitty

>

Thor665

>

rb = Auro = Egix96 > Lamees >

Creature

[Succinct]

I guess someone made that alt just to get away scumreading the most obvtown players for the laziest reasons possible.

Read's not lazy.
Creature's iso's too short + sparse in content. Nako's observation's valid.

[Succinct]

As for Lamees:

I will start reading soon, anything I should know before reading? Like any claim?

Lamees claimed Angel. IIRC she was only L-3 at the time.

I share Persivul's sentiments of suspicion there.

[Succinct]

So you opened my ISO and held down the Page Down button until it hit the bottom?

I opened iso on 1669. You may have more than originally assumed.
VOTE: Lamees

[Succinct]

I think you should just admit you haven't read anything at all.

Already implied; started from 1625.

[Succinct]

Let's all agree that I spewed town with that nightkill.

I claim partial credit.

VOTE: Lamees

[Succinct]

Thor665 (L-4)

: Malakitty, rb

Malakitty (L-4)

: Something_Smart, Auro

Succinct (L-5)

: BBmolla

Nako (L-5)

: Egix96

BBmolla (L-5)

: Lamees

Lamees (L-5)

: Succinct

Nako, Thor665

Based off the last few pages Lamees is very likely town.

That's backwards. Last few pages show Lamees's scum.

I'm TRing Something_Smart too.

Not quite as backwards, but almost as bad.

how about day3 ends the way day2 was supposed to end
with a thor lynch

Thor's play's lackluster enough that I'll compromise there, but only as a last resort.

[Succinct]

Nako

> BBMolla > Malakitty > rb = Egix > Thor665 > Something_Smart = Auro >

Lamees

[Succinct]

Actually,

Nako = BBMolla

> Malakitty > rb = Egix96 > Thor665 > Something_Smart = Auro >

Lamees

There's some shifts from 1704; Something_Smart's posts deteriorated, Malakitty's stronger townread, rb/Egix now are townreads, all from posts since then.

[Succinct]

if lamees was scum im fairly sure another PR would have claimed by today

You assume one exists erroneously.

Why do you think Lamees is scum Succint

Isoed Persivul, sheeped him on claim being scummy. Since then, 1643/1662/1667/1715/1730/1732/1734 as active lurking.

1672 stances were pure scum.
1717, willingness to lynch anyone indicative of scum.

Your 1726 was accurate. 1727 was a poor defense of it.
1765 was poor reaction to your soft,

especially

as an Angel should

know

the cop was impossible and wouldn't ask. Later posts do precisely that, but it's the

first

reaction that counts; a town player is more prone to an "a-HA!" caught-ya response, whereas Lamees's response was delayed over the course of multiple posts.
1779's push of not responding when the obvious answer was you logged off was bad.
1845+1852+1878/1881 = Lamees is willing to lynch almost everyone. (At least 5/9 slots as named lynch targets.)

Better question; why's Lamees town?

[Succinct]

Forgot: Lamees posited the Creature kill = Molla scum.
It's the opposite; Creature's posts implied Molla town.

[Succinct]

however, assuming the minimum ascension points (5) as opposed to the other 4 possibilities (6,7,8,9) is going with the 20% odds rather than the 80%
if the town had any number of ascension points (6-9) then we could realistically have another PR counter-claim lamees, but we also have room for another PR in the points range too. i think we shelve it for today, but tomorrow we should massclaim

Key note: because scum know how many points they have, they know how many points town have. If they started with 2, then they'd know town has 5.

This, incidentally, contributes to why Lamees is scum: Lamees advocated for the presence of an Immortal, costing 2 points. This lines up with the amount we know they have; 5 (our total flipped) - 3 = 2, the cost of the Immortal.
For Lamees to be town, there must then be a

second

scum role also equaling 2 points. Yet I saw no indication Lamees thinks there's a second scum role.

Also of note: it is borderline gamethrowing not to vote Lamees. Why? If Lamees is scum fakeclaiming, Lamees is scum and needed to be lynched.
If Lamees is town, then Lamees is the only way to get the game off evens back onto odds. Lynching Lamees today is safer than tomorrow, as tomorrow in a worst-case scenario is mylo.

1765 was to see if he was actually claiming cop.

My point holds:

Later posts do precisely that, but

it's the

first

reaction that counts; a town player is more prone to an "a-HA!" caught-ya response

, whereas Lamees's response was delayed over the course of multiple posts.

If you were town, you wouldn't be asking if he was claiming cop at all. You'd already know he wasn't one, and would jump on the assumption he was scum fakeclaiming.
Though later posts go through this process, the first post was the important one.

And there's always going to be posts that look like active lurking in a very lurky player base when I myself am a pretty active player. Case is garbage and clearly scum driven.

So you think active lurking wasn't valid. What's garbage about these, then?

1672 stances were pure scum.
1717, willingness to lynch anyone indicative of scum.
Your 1726 was accurate. 1727 was a poor defense of it.
1779's push of not responding when the obvious answer was you logged off was bad.
1845+1852+1878/1881 = Lamees is willing to lynch almost everyone. (At least 5/9 slots as named lynch targets.)

Forgot: Lamees posited the Creature kill = Molla scum.
It's the opposite; Creature's posts implied Molla town.

I'm not the only one towning Lamees.

Appeal to Majority is a fallacy. I ask again:

why's Lamees town?

I've shown why Lamees is scum; your turn.

[Succinct]

Small additions:

Key note: because scum know how many points they have, they know how many points town have. If they started with 2, then they'd know town has 5.

This also means scum know precisely what/how to fakeclaim. They know exactly what role types town has, thus, what roles're optimal to fakeclaim.

Angel fits the mold perfectly.

If Lamees is town, then Lamees is the only way to get the game off evens back onto odds.

Obviously, technically we can no-lynch again, but that's sub-optimal. Lynching Lamees is a risk-free way to potentially obtain odds again. If Lamees is scum, we stay on evens but we lynched scum. If Lamees is town and shoots successfully, we go to odds and get dead scum. If Lamees is town and shoots unsuccessfully, shot player is conftown (barring godfather). We lose nothing regardless, but we have much to gain.

[Succinct]

Additional clarification:
The Persivul posts I'm sheeping are 282, 285, 323/328, 360/401 (the premature claim is scummy particularly given it's an Angel), 372/384/385/394, 398 (incredibly valid point), 408/411/429 (when do we lynch the Angel claim if not now?), 416, 426/433, 427, 437/448 (today

is

the day before xylo), 449 (Angel isn't a role which should be claimed, least of all prematurely), 452 (Persivul advocated for Lamees's death D2), 454, 503 (what was Lamees going to claim, Doctor? That's a worse claim because it requires proof whereas Angel does not), 786, 791 (that mess goes to endgame unless dealt with today), 870, and 889 (leaving Angel alive is useless because Angel is never getting NKd).

I highly recommend reading them, as he was rather on-point; scum must have killed him for a reason not role-related because Persivul near as I can tell left absolutely no breadcrumbs at all. No breadcrumbs, not killed for role, must have been killed for reason other than role. Was Persivul considered widely obvtown? I genuinely don't know as I am a replacement, but if the answer is no, then process of elimination: not killed because he bled town, not killed because he bled PR, must have been killed because of his reads.

[Succinct]

Actually nvm, I agree. Lynch me so I can smite this unholy *censored*
VOTE: Lamees

You’re one of the worst players I’ve ever encountered.

Don't confuse scum with bad. AtE's a valid tactic for scum.

lamees is a terrible lynch because their slot will be 100% sorted by a massclaim.

How? By a lack of other PR claims? Angel's the best role to fakeclaim for a scumteam knowing town has 5 points.

and lamees is also making town posts today, even if they're absurd they're town motivated

Point them out; I've shown the contrary already.

No one really has a case on Thor, it's just a paranoia lynch.

Funny, I feel the same about Malakitty. There's reason I opted to join neither wagon yesterday; both felt like mislynches in the making.

I'm not hammering a townread, and it looks *obvious* to me how the scumteam is pushing for lynches and setting up future mislynches.

I agree with this sentiment.
However, unlike you whose words fail to name names, I provide precisely who I feel is guilty of this sin.

[Succinct]

VC from a few pages ago @Succint

How's this relevant?

VOTE: Nako
if we're gonna end up lynching Mala instead of thor, this is better

Let's not lynch any town and instead lynch scum. Nako/Mala/Ruby're all town.

huh i don't townread SS

Truth.

auro probtown

Your only bad read.

huh i don't townread SS
so that's a bad start

Why not?

For a start, 2024.

[Succinct]

angel is a bad fakeclaim

Backwards; it's the best. 2 Priests? Stretch. 2 Witch Hunters? Stretch. Sorceress? Lack of second NK condemns. Doctor? Requires not targeting the NK, raising questions as to why they didn't protect the obv-NK. Only claims remotely close to Angel's viability are Sorceress+Trickster, both 1-point roles necessitating the presence of a nonexistent Witch (only 1-point scum role). Angel allows for scum's 2-point role to flip and fit with fakeclaim.

For a start, 2024.

Tell me more.

Wanting to know why someone you're voting's not townreading you's overly defensive.

@Egix: Nako and SS both have been "coasting" without any rigid stances. If they're scum, it's reasonable to assume they'd coast along some particular agenda in this gamestate, as opposed to placing votes haphazardly. Many of Nako's votes have been vanity -- like her votes on Creature and You -- which makes me believe she's town, and currently ML bait.

You give why Nako's town here; I'm disinclined to disagree. However, this defense's specific to Nako.

You note the scum trend you'd expect for Something_Smart and offer no reason why it's absent.

Why's Something_Smart not a focal point for you?

Who'd be SS' partners here if he flips red?

Lamees also I've been sorta townleaning on, one reason being her "IDC I'll lynch anyone" attitude, I'm disliking that she's not even trying to gamesolve.

Given her Angel claim, if she's in your PoE wouldn't she be a better lynch, since if she's town we get the equivalent of a cop check (framer can't operate in Twilight), there's a chance of a false positive on an immortal but I think on a whole it should be useful. Thoughts?

See my vote.

You maybe? Smart maybe? I say that because you both have been against lynching her.

See my 1902.

[Succinct]

And I REFUSE TO HAVE ANOTHER NL

Second NL puts us onto odds; it's not the end of the world.

I'm actually down to lynch him over Nako cos I trust Red's read

Calling your bluff.
VOTE: Something_Smart

[Succinct]

Willing to lynch Mala more than SS, though, if it wasn't clear.

I'm actually down to lynch him over Nako cos I trust Red's read

Calling your bluff.
VOTE: Something_Smart

[Succinct]

Didn't think a Mala lynch was possible today, but it clearly is now.

I'm still calling you a liar, who put on bravado of willingness to lynch someone you had no intent of ever bussing.

[Succinct]

Succint I’m flipping town
So there’s no busing involved

Yes, my point precisely.
He's voting you, refusing to bus Something_Smart.

[Succinct]

VOTE: Lamees
Can vote Something_Smart or Auro instead, if preferred.

[Succinct]

succint's vote is awful

Why? As you said, it's mylo (not lylo); Lamees can't be quickhammered regardless of alignment. If scum, scum wouldn't pile on; if town, scum piling on is gamethrowing as shot scum = we can lynch remaining two tomorrow. Either way, Lamees isn't at risk of a quicklynch.

I guess it could be because they thought he was a different PR, but idk what that could be.

I'm a Trickster, I turned invisible on Night 2.

These two together = Something_Smart scumclaimed.

Incidentally, I believe Egix's claim as he had no incentive to claim this as scum.

[Succinct]

I changed my mind.
Auro-Lamees interactions aren't scum theater; my Auto/SS/Lamees solve's thus wrong.
VOTE: Something_Smart

Egix96

> Ruby Red > Nako > Auro

>

Lamees

>

rb >

Something_Smart

Please allow me 24h to explain changes.

[Succinct]

Incidentally, I believe Egix's claim as he had no incentive to claim this as scum.

This reason is a bit shaky. Feels forced.

Why?
There's two reasons for scum to fakeclaim.
1: Look town.
2: Gain mislynch.
Reason 1's not valid; Egix was not being voted today. Anyone saying otherwise is lying. Egix wasn't even being scumread. There's no need for him to gain towncred; he was already seen as town.
Reason 2's not valid; Egix's claim could only serve to lynch you. Egix is not pressing for a Lamees lynch, meaning this was not his intention. Furthermore, he didn't need to fakeclaim to put scrutiny on you.

What are you talking about?

2813's sufficient an answer.

Lamees

I'm back to townreading, and I wonder what Succint's current read there is: I really doubt scum!Lamees fakeclaims and self-votes readily in MyLo.

My read on Lamees can be summed up as so:
I believe there's 1 scum in Auro/Lamees.
I believe there's 1 scum in rb/Nako.
I believe Something_Smart's scum regardless.
This gives four possible scumteams.
Most likely to least likely, Lamees/rb > Auro/rb > Lamees/Nako > Auro/Nako.

I have cased the slot repeatedly, and continued my offense with new reasons.

Nobody's responded to these (except the ones which, after being responded to, I re-responded to; nobody responded to my responses).

I've, repeatedly, asked a question nobody's answered:

I ask again:

why's Lamees town?

I've shown why Lamees is scum; your turn.

and lamees is also making town posts today, even if they're absurd they're town motivated

Point them out; I've shown the contrary already.

Your reasoning's the closest I've ever gotten to an answer, and even it is flawed.

Lamees is a claimed angel. What's a self-vote (which has since been removed) do to harm Lamees's odds of survival? Nothing. What's a self-vote do to increase Lamees's odds of surviving? Everything. There's your scum motivation. As I previously stated:

Don't confuse scum with bad. AtE's a valid tactic for scum.

While we're at it: I've explained my Egix townread.
My Ruby Red townread comes from a combination of Ruby Red's Something_Smart push and rb's heavyhanded pushing of the slot as scum in a way unlikely to be bussing.
Nako townread comes from liking the slot's content, and agreeing with the logic RE: Creature nk. Nako lacks incentive for it.

Leaving Auro and rb reads unexplained.

My Auro read's that Auro fits as a Something_Smart scumbuddy, but not as a Lamees scumbuddy. There's not much more.

rb's returning to my original thoughts on the slot, deeming his content not town. Furthermore, there's a nagging question at mind: rb's been widely townread by players throughout the game;

why isn't he dead

. If rb is town, you can plausibly say it's because his main push is also on town (making Ruby Red town regardless of whether rb's town/scum), but the suspicion lingers of an alternative answer being he can't die due to being scum.

rb also carries some burden of proficiency; he's a competent player, yet has contributed significantly to at least one almost assured mislynch and helped lynch other town as well.

These are compounded with his pushes in key areas: 2208, 2211, 2212, 2213. While we're on that post:

for real if we were going to test the lamees slot, it was meant to happen before mylo. the fact that it occurs _NOW_ just reeks of scum to me. they claimed on day1. we are now on day4, if we didn't lynch them on day1 (or 2) why the fuck is the game still hungup on it.

Whose fault is that? I was voting there since D2; it's not like I didn't present reasons, either, as I've shown above. I was ignored. What can I do about that? I asked questions and raised points nobody bothered to answer or counter.

one thing that makes me want to go for nako is that honestly...he's a viable scum partner to almost anyone in the game?

rb's experienced enough to know this is backwards. Someone who works as scum with anyone's scum with no one.

[Succinct]

Expanding further:

rb's been widely townread by players throughout the game;

why isn't he dead

.

I can't speak for N1 with Persivul. I believe Persivul was shot for his play, not for his role, but having not been in the game I confess I don't know why he'd die.

Creature was a near-universal townread; I can understand why he'd die.

But why did

BBMolla

, someone

many players were willing to lynch

, eat the nightkill? Why not rb? I was certain he'd be the third nightkill because nobody else was worth killing. So why's he alive still?

[Succinct]

Succinct your reads in particular struck me as amazing.

Thank you.
Alas.
I picked the wrong one of Lamees/Auro.

[Succinct]

I knew that Smart had to be scum as soon as he hammered, but I wouldn't have guessed that he was scum with Auro. A+ distancing!

Not particularly? They were one of the likeliest teams.