[Game Over] Open 743 - The Crown of Misery

[Auro]

@Lamees - vote rb with me.
I think Darklight is town.

Case RB, please.
I think you, Egix, RB, S_S all look bad if Mala is scum here

[Auro]

I think you guys look bad even otherwise. I'll figure things out and make my cases. My vote is gonna be on Mala for now.

[Auro]

@auro, read post 347 and your post that follows (348). To me, after the cop flip, it looks like one of you def have tmi for that point in the game.

Wow, so anyone who's observant enough to notice a TMI slip, you'll accuse them of TMI yourself?
So if catching TMI slips is TMI, my town flip means you're scum forcing a TMI slip on me?

[Auro]

VOTE: rb

Rb would be my top pick if Mala is scum.
Your reasoning for RB being scum is largely the slip, I take it?

[Auro]

@Lamees - vote rb with me.
I think Darklight is town.

Case RB, please.
I think you, Egix, RB, S_S all look bad if Mala is scum here

"Give me a case for rb, I think rb looks like scum if Mala is scum"

Over Mala.

[Auro]

And over Egix/S_S, who also avoided Mala or townread her while voting on a counterwagon.

[Auro]

It's not so much that, it's more that if rb is town and happened to mention a cop, you'd be taking the opportunity to frame him for TMI because you know there actually is one.

Exactly. I think auro can see what I mean but is being dodgy.

:/
I still find it very stretched. Like cool, I *can* use it as scum to try pushing for a lynch on him but what do I gain by also saying it's not as damning and townreading him?

[Auro]

I actually think it's a fair point

What? So if RB flips town, and you're pushed based on that point next, you'd think it's fair??

[Auro]

And over Egix/S_S, who also avoided Mala or townread her while voting on a counterwagon.

If I were scum with Mala though, wouldn't I have bussed her rather than... done that?

As I said, I think you would've if it was absolutely necessary, but the quick Dunn wagon meant you could pounce upon that.

Whoops, sorry, damnit mobile tabs.

[Auro]

...So the reasoning for not thinking scum have zombie D1 is an at-the-time unflipped cop.

But this post was made D2, right?

[Auro]

Still don't really buy that RB's post was some huge damning slip.

Nice quickwagon on RB, and if he flips town setting up mine and DLA's lynches because of stretchy logic while avoiding looking into other super scummy slots.

[Auro]

But these weren't.

You're accusing her of TMI now
Oh, how the turntables.

[Auro]

@auro, me knowing there is an immortal in the game isnt tmi, it's just obvious that there should be one.

Because you're Angel? Pre-flip you didn't know there was a priest.

[Auro]

Also remember priest has the highest chance of being in the game of all the town power roles

Ah, yeah.

[Auro]

And I repeat, I can confirm no sorceress in this game.

Yeah the two flips so far are 5 points total, unless Lamees was fakeclaiming it brings it to 7, sorceress makes it 10 which is beyond the maximum number of ascencion points.

So from her POV there's definitely no possibility of a Sorcerer.

[Auro]

Like, RB's cop TMI slip is the closest I have to a grip on this game

I seriously doubt that's a slip. Sometimes people forget to say "if" or "hypothetically" or whatever.

This^
I felt it was TMI at first, but it's very easy to miscontrue this as a slip. I never "forced" it into a slip

[Auro]

You saying that I know there is an immortal is tmi is ridiculous because that can only be true if you know there is an immortal. Looks like you slipped again lol.

http://i.imgur.com/EAvvfw2.gifv

Use the image tag!

[Auro]

Also can someone explain me the Auro and rb can't be town together part?

If RB is town, scum who *knew* there was a cop in the game could use this to push RB, and thus benefit from making it look like a slip. Since I pointed it out, according to Lamees, it makes me scum doing that.

[Auro]

Yep!
@DLA: Sowie *_*

[Auro]

Lamees' reasons for voting RB:

1. "Derp tunnel on Lamees": OMGUS
2. "Hard pushed Dunnstral": Yeah sure blame the person who lead the wagon instead of the people sheeping it. If the Mala lynch went through and she flipped town, Lamees would've used the same logic against me. He townread Mala, and gauged for interest in a Dunn lynch, and people were willing. This isn't scum-indicative. Also, Dunnstral claimed VT, I feel you're forgetting that.
3. "Also pushing a lynch on the third power role": It's definitely not confirmed that you're an Angel, and with the way you're pushing a "RB and if RB town then Auro/DLA" agenda on stretchy reasons, I'm losing my townread on you.
4. "Wooh TMI slip": Very weak reason, sure it could be a slip but it can *easily* come from town, as the cop himself thinks too.

Come up with better reasons to push RB, because I'm still townleaning him.

You mentioned RB and DLA could be scumpartners, lol, and earlier that DLA could be scum if he's town? Lol.

[Auro]

protip: the people we should be focussing on imo are the people who were on both the mala + dunn wagons

Look at the final composition, no one on Mala moved to Dunn. I did only to hammer because duh.

So what do you think it indicates if there's a bad Leo counterwagon, but it isn't getting enough votes, so there's a quickwagon on Dunn - an easier mislynch?

If Mala's scum, I'll be heavily re-evaluating my read on your slot.

[Auro]

DLA - Hs push on Lamees seems like scum grasping for a mislynch

A generally townread player who's a claimed PR -- do you really think that's a brilliant ML for scum to push?

Can you describe what makes Lam town to you? And why she can't be scum executing what I agree is a great strat?

We started 10-3, now 8-3, if we mislynch 6-3, one more and 4-3 LyLo. She's pushing RB right now -- if he flips town there's only one more ML to afford.

Now, she says this:

I agree that I'm better off lynched than night killed

*When*? She now says she can be lynched, but *only* if there's an enchantress/JOAT/another Angel in the game. I'm not following this logic too easily either -- I can easily see a scum strategy in claiming early and surviving, while scum knows that the JOAT flip is probable, and then use that to say it's a bad lunch anyway.

Can someone describe to me, why exactly claiming Angel is a bad strat for scum early on?

[Auro]

VOTE: Malakitty
I think Egix is probably scum here so I will vote the wagon that he is not on.

I also liked that case.

Hmm I have no idea about anything.

Nako's last few posts look really bad.
FoS

[Auro]

Auro you're stating the obvious here, we were at 10-3 now 8-3 and 6-3 if we mislynch tomorrow. So? So now I am not supposed to vote? What exactly was the point of this post?

My point was that "Lamees is a good mechanical lynch, therefore her claim makes her town" isn't a convincing argument to me. I can see a viable scum strat in early claiming Angel. There's no point where your lynch is good if you are Angel . You said something like "I agree I'm better off lynched if enchantress/JOAT/Angel exists", but even if one existed, that logic shouldn't hold. I don't think the claim clears you; hence when you say "you're trying to lynch the third PR" it's bad logic.

I'm saying if you're scum, and you knew your claim would carry you to late game, yeah -- it's probable for the JOAT to have flipped by then. Or at least a reasonable assumption to make, IMO. It's not 1/13, it could happen anytime till late game and then you just argue you shouldn't be lynched. I think all of this is plausible for scum.

[Auro]

town: mala, creature, egix

So all three on the Dunn wagon. Impressive. (/s)

Mala, Persivul, Egix, Auro, Creature, RB, S_S.

S_S and I are the only ones on the wagon apart from that, and I see you're not voting for either.

Do you think Dunn's wagon was all town?

[Auro]

i'm gonna go with

auro/S_S/leodanny

This is gross "gamesolving".

Agreeing with Thor, this looks more like muddying the waters and flailing than any attempt to solve. Just ew

I'm not voting yet because I don't want him quicklynched, but here's my intent.

[Auro]

Who are these scummy slots you think we should be looking into?

Mala, Egix, you, S_S.

Some of the slots we should look at, I find scummy. I'd also like some more attention on Creature and Nako.

[Auro]

@Thor: When he got to L-2, the wagon was - Thor, Lamees, DLA, Something_Smart.

If you think RB was scum and he got bussed, which one is it? You're townreading all the other three on that wagon.

[Auro]

Mind explaining your read on RB, Creature? And S_S, Egix.

RB's brandishing the vote around without any attempt to gamesolve and throwing out random townreads, how can that be town?

[Auro]

My experience with rb says him throwing votes around isn't necessarily scum.

Uh, but how is he town?

>Says town should look for scum in the Mala+Dunn wagons (1328);
>Throws TRs on Mala, Creature, Egix, ALL on the Dunn wagon;
>Votes for someone OFF the Mala and Dunn wagons;
>I point out the inconsistency;
>"Good point" and flings his vote at me

Sure, he throws around his vote as town also, and he did do that D1, but *how* is this^ town?

[Auro]

Nako replaced NotNova and I'll agree that's a "bleh" slot but I don't see you doing anything to explore the slot, so I find myself asking why you're complaining that others aren't - couldn't you just, y'know, do the thing you want others to do?

VOTE: Malakitty
I think Egix is probably scum here so I will vote the wagon that he is not on.

I also liked that case.

Hmm I have no idea about anything.

Nako's last few posts look really bad.
FoS

No one's really paying attention to her slot, Creature even townreads her.
Her analysis posts from D1 I'm not reading alignment from, her recent posts are really bad as I point out.
I'm pointing that out to get her to post more, I *am* trying to direct attention there in an attempt to explore.
I'm very well justified making that complaint, that I'm not doing anything is a flimsy accusation.

[Auro]

Creature replaced Yyotta Cat and is reasonable to call a townread for the moment.

What does replacing YC have to do with it?
I don't recall YC ever being a TR, what makes it reasonable to call a townread there?

[Auro]

I'll agree, again, that her slot is bleh - but just going 'yo, this slot is bleh' isn't actually a way to interact with the slot. Is all you want people to agree that the slot is bleh?
You aren't scumhunting the slot - if you think what you're doing is scumhunting then allow me to redefine my point for clarity; "you're not engaging with the slot to try to make it produce information or provide reads in a way to allow you and others to potentially garner enough information on it to draw a more definable assessment of its thought process in the game on a town/scum alignment scale but are instead weakly, and very skantwise, are generically attacking it while complaining now about someone else generically deciding it's town while not seeing how both reads are equally empty and basically identical besides where they fall on the alignment scale"

That's all very well, except I

can't

engage with a slot if there's nothing to engage on.
The

only

option I have in this scenario, is call them out for active lurking, and then wait for them to produce content.

Hate to break it to ya, but directing negative attention on a

lurkslot

IS a form of scumhunting.

[Auro]

I can agree you didn't read the slot as town and don't recall people townreading the slot.

This was the entirety of YvottaCat's ISO:

Spoiler:

Oh no I'm late

Reveal the undead by asking more things! Auro, who do you think is most likely to be scum?

Based on other people, VOTE: lamees, I won't know if it was l-2 or something like that

I'm out hope replacement is good

I'm pretty definite in my recall that no one townread YC, do correct me if I'm wrong.

My question is, what does Creature replacing into YC's slot have to do with Creature being a reasonable townread?

[Auro]

I missed something here -- Bristep did replace Yvotta Cat. Retract the above^, I do remember having that slot as "meh" too, have to re-read the reads on him.

[Auro]

So I've looked back and RB called him "obvtown" and Dunn said it does look like town, and see nothing else -- I had that slot at a hard null and so did the others IIRC.
Cool, back to that question -- How does this make Creature a reasonable TR?

[Auro]

@Creature: Of course he'd hit someone off with the way he was throwing his votes around; but hitting someone off RIGHT AFTER acknowledging scum would be in those wagons while ALSO throwing TRs on 3 from the Dunn wagon?

Lol, sure.

[Auro]

Now, to a certain extent I would like to see some flips in theoretical other places, but I suspect an early replace out here to be more likely from town than scum. I can see an argument made in the reverse to suggest that it was feelings of failure as scum and fleeing from doing so again, and I don't dislike that argument, but suggest the outward showing from the initial posts here do not match up well with that scum game.

Yeah, I was thinking the same WRT replacing out coming from scum too, but noted -- I'll go read that up.

[Auro]

I'm definitely not townreading Nako off her predecessor. I've seen her doing three soulreads and I was like "nah, scum wouldn't pull three townreads and use soulread as reason".

"Pocketing"
You've played with Nako before? Are you saying it's out of her scumrange?
I can totally imagine scum making initial non-committal "soulreads" on replacing in.

[Auro]

Yeah^, the "not furthering win-con" argument can be used to justify any scum flailing.

[Auro]

Gah, I'm on the fence regarding RB.

His play reminds me a bit of town!Lamees from Newbie 1893, where everyone rushed a wagon on her cause "obvious scum lulz" and she was flailing...

I want to hear from Mala, Nako and Leo.

[Auro]

Any other thoughts on the current gamestate?

[Auro]

VOTE: Thor665
1 scum between Thor and rb.
Hopefully, Creature is town.
Lamees did not die so she is also a scum?

Why Thor over RB?
If you're (or were) considering the possibility that Lamees is scum, why can't Thor v RB be TvT?

[Auro]

Why do you think that? I wouldn't describe my scum play that way.

By "that way" you mean specifically dictating the NK, yes? How is that relevant?
If you're scum and Persi's play was antithetical to your agenda, that enough is reason for you to suggest Persi as a NK rather than have to "dictate" it to your scumteam.

I can actually see why Persivul would be a great target for scum!you, apart from the fact that he seemed generally townread.

RB, who you're very aggressively pushing now, was townread by Persi.
I'm one of your "top scumspects", at least was at one point and I infer probably still am; Persi was townreading me earlier, and if it came down to one of us, he would've picked you for scum.

[Auro]

One thing disturbed me, when I read Creature's accusation of Thor's vote being "agenda-y".

Thor and RB are both "aggressive" players, in the sense that they laid down their thoughts and made their pushes pretty strongly throughout the game.
Both seemed to be getting wagoned today.

My fear is that it's easy to pick off a lot of actions from such players and read them as scum-indicative or construct a scum agenda around them. And it's a potentially dangerous problem in this game, I fear - due to the significant number of lurkslots.

I don't think we should rush a lynch today at all, and highly suggest that we actually aim to produce significant content from the lurkers in the meantime.

[Auro]

Persivul's reads has nothing to do with it. If he town read you and scum read thor, it makes more sense for you to kill him. For example (a previous game), not mafia night killing you night 1 even though you both town read eachother day 1. It just made his ride to end game easier.

Who is likelier to have chosen the night kill target should never be a case imo. Too much wifom.

Not_Maf didn't kill me N1 *because* I townread him.
If Persivul townread me and I him, it makes more sense

not

to kill him, even going by your example.

In most cases, reads have everything to do with NKs. Besides, I'm not saying Persivul's NK implicates Thor.
I'm saying a Persivul NK is highly consistent with Thor being scum, and doesn't have to be a "Thor-dictated" choice of NK.

[Auro]

Oh, sorry, bad phrasing.
Not_Maf killed me not because I townread him, he killed me inspite of that because I was on to Volxen and deemed pretty much unlynchable at that point.
Volxen was scum in that game.

[Auro]

Volx time was limited in that game. I mean I can give more examples where lynching mutual town reads are much more beneficial. Heck I even did as scum myself and won that way. But I guess it doesn't matter. Because it can be anyone. Too much wifom.

I disagree, I think lynching mutual townreads is really bad scumplay -- simply because you have the superior option of removing someone who's likelier to vote you in the future. You maybe "won"

in spite

of killing someone who TR you, I don't think that alone contributed anything much to your win. My last scumgame I was only able to win by systematically killing whoever scumread me, if I didn't do that I definitely would've lost.

NKs are part of the agenda. You can't discredit the whole idea of NKA as "too much WIFOM", I think WIFOM could be applied to pretty much any argument in the game. Maybe not as sole incriminating evidence, but still useful.

[Auro]

Well, blatantly, if someone townread the previous slot holder it has *everything* to do with it.
To explain my thoughts - in a Newbie game (now finished but ongoing at the time, so relax your panties) Yyotta admitted in the PT that they were under a lot of stress, and had their partner point out that lack of posting was insulting to other players.
I hate to have to then dance around the rather silly and I swear constantly changing rules of this site but Yyotta didn't replace out of all their games.
Also, if you look at the Newbie game in question and assess their scum play while feeling overwhelmed you can get the vibe that;

1. They were more relaxed here.
2. They cared about the group and recognized they weren't going to be the best here.

Now, to a certain extent I would like to see some flips in theoretical other places, but I suspect an early replace out here to be more likely from town than scum. I can see an argument made in the reverse to suggest that it was feelings of failure as scum and fleeing from doing so again, and I don't dislike that argument, but suggest the outward showing from the initial posts here do not match up well with that scum game.

So I tend to favor town, and barring something more exciting than "Creature's reads are narf!" I'm not going to scumread that slot, and rather question anyone who does.
Also, that slot, across the various slot holders, has a perfectly decent amount of posting to assess, unlike your more reasonable complaint about the Nova slot.

I checked that PT.
Yes, they admit they were under a lot of stress. However, the posts in the PT gave me the impression that said stress wasn't due to being scum in the game, rather some external factor that caused him to "forget the forum". I think it was just co-incidence that he didn't replace out of all then; plus, got lynched by the time he probably would have in that particular one.
I think you're drawing too much a comparison with that game based on 4 posts and the premise of "being overwhelmed" which I think wasn't due to the game itself, so I think that slot doesn't deserve a townread for it.
And I'm not particularly impressed by Creature's reads either, so... yeah.

[Auro]

That's too obvious for me. My style is different. Can't be transparent as scum.

Nah, the moment one says "obvious" another says WIFOM, so it's inherently weakened. I believe the utility gained from killing someone who scumreads you far outweighs any loss incurred by someone trying to push you from that angle *shrug*.

Again, the possibility of WIFOM doesn't invalidate NKA entirely .

[Auro]

Because Creature is using it as a case on me - I don't actually think it's a valid casing method and am trying to get him to show enough cards to reveal it's an empty claim.
Why are you asking me to defend Creature's case on me as relevant?

I do agree with you that it's not a valid casing method by itself.
However, I don't think Creature was really "casing" you just based on that in the first place.
You were in his PoE pool, and the NK is consistent with the possibility of your being scum, whether or not you dictated the kill or not.
I *think* this would be enough for him to have voted at the time, given his play.

[Auro]

I never said he replaced out from the pressure of being scum.
Why do you think he only replaced out of one game and not all games?

I don't think there's any direct causality we can establish here -- my answer is "dunno", but I don't think it's indicative either way. YC is a very weird player.

[Auro]

I agree that if he randomly decides I'm in his PoE pool (with little to no logic) and then he mentions 'hey, a guy died that because of 'feels' Thor is more likely to kill then, yeah, sure, he can vote me over that.
I'll poke at it to make him (and apparently you) have to defend it on those merits so that, hopefully if you're town you'll wake up or if you're scum you'll reveal yourself. Switch my name with anyone else in his pool (or outside of it) and the case remains functionally unchanged - which is why it's a poor case.

I don't get the point of this post from you.

Oh, cool that you agree on that.
My larger point is that your reaction ("You think I'd dictate that kill?", "That's not my scumplay" or whatever) wasn't actually combating Creature's reasons for voting you, but just serves as a distraction. Whether or not you dictated the kill, as I said before, is irrelevant. Baiting him into that line of conversation seems like the kinda thing scum!you would do, as opposed to a clearer defense entailing if there were any other reasons behind the case, or pointing it out then that the Persivul NK would be equally likely from others in his pool too.

Also, no, it's not fully functionally unchanged if you swap it out with anyone. Persi had RB as town, and RB was already drawing a lot of "lynch energy" -- I can't really imagine RB killing Persi.

I'll note that I'm still interacting with Auro,

Gamma

, Nako, You, and to a light extent Lamees.

Seems like I'm not the only one

[Auro]

It's decently strong, yeah. Creature doesn't try this hard as scum.

Cool, so you townread Creature and don't scumread RB anymore.
What are your other reads?

[Auro]

You could be scum if rb isn't, Thor could be scum

I'd like you to talk more about why I could be scum if RB isn't, and how you think Thor could be scum.

[Auro]

Idk how you can’t see that Thor isn’t anything but scum

Thor's been a scumspect for me for a long time, I'm just interested to see why others think so.
I've pointed out things that he's done that look scummy through my interactions, including his seeming encouragement of the cop check and the recent "dictate the kill?" conversation baiting and a few other things.

I'm not very impressed by Creature's own reasons.

Can you describe your reasons for why Thor can't be "anything but scum"?

[Auro]

@Mala: I'm not moving my vote till there's significant content from you. I feel that the wagon compositions of both counterwagons to you are scum-indicative for you, in addition to other weaker reasons I posted earlier and lack of D2 content.

@Creature: Is Malakittens easy to read? That's definitely not the impression I had of her with her banner.

[Auro]

Part of me wishes that the Joat didn’t ducking claim Vt and I would have been lynched bc it’s not like my role is at all important

You're a PR? Why is it unimportant?

[Auro]

I can empathize with Mala's motivation loss after Dunn's VT claim, but she seems more deflect-y here, just like in D1. Although I do believe Thor holds quite a lot of scum equity, as I pointed out before it's probably easy to scumread an active player. I also don't like how Mala made out my interactions with Thor as TvS, without actually commenting on the content within those interactions themselves, as though setting me up for a lynch if Thor flips town.

I think she's been following an agenda through her posts. She was off when it was RB/DLA being wagoned, and now when Thor has a wagon on him and she's pushed for content, she deflects to Thor.

I'm happy with either being lynched, to be fair - I'm not impressed by Nako at all, but I think the added association info we gain by either of the two lynches is good.

Thor flipping red should probably clear Mala because I see absolutely no reason in distancing/bussing right from D1, and should also clear RB because Thor bussing RB while RB's townread significantly doesn't make sense either.

Mala flipping red should clear Thor/Lamees and narrow down the pool to S_S/Egix/RB from D1 interactions.

VOTE: Thor
L-1 I think.

[Auro]

Not empty, I want her lynched.

[Auro]

I wasn't meaning to imply it was an empty question.

I read it as - you have a problem with me wanting Mala to claim, and find it scummy.
I think she's likely scum, and want her lynched.
I'm maintaining that I still want her to if she's a PR, and tell us why it's unimportant instead of dodging it.

So explain why you think it's scummy, as I infer you are?

[Auro]

Which game is Thor playing more like - Newbie 1893, or Paris Mafia?

Can you link to the game?
I think Thor's style is such that it's hard to establish any significant tells from other games, my scumread on him is mostly from things in this game.

Look at his continued attacks on me. He got me from a townlean to a "top scumspect" on *one* question he kept insisting was empty, and my attempts to clarify. He accused me of another "empty question" which I objectively disproved, and turned it into a "but you didn't follow up with me" attack which he himself retracted. Again, attacked me for "complaining" about Nako when I said she needs more attention, when I clearly already had called out her active lurking. That's a *lot* of shade thrown at my slot, and terribly weak.

Did you read the interactions? What do you make of his attacks?

[Auro]

UNVOTE:
No gambles, not while he's off the site

[Auro]

Whoever isn't voting him, please explain why the cases on him are bad.
Egix, I couldn't glean much from that game *shrug*, did you read the interactions yet? What's your take?

[Auro]

Got prodded. Dunno what to say, really, haha. VLA for a day, still in NY celebrations.

@Thor yeah bud, no town points for that hypersimplification and misrep. I am down to lynch Mala if not you if you can get a wagon going there.

[Auro]

I'm sure you'll have a wall to explain how the case isn't empty - allow me to head you off; you're blatantly and objectively wrong.

^

I'm not saying I have a brilliant, solid amazeballs case on you, but whatever I do have is pretty much enough

Creature was saying the possibility of scum!you fit with the NK, and gave other reasons. I think you're scummy not just for the weird "Oh I wouldn't dictate, not my scumplay" defense and the copping encouragement, but also your continuous shade towards me. The only other person who actually read it thinks you're prolly scum if it's not a TvT.

You just keep calling everything empty.

[Auro]

and for some reason people don't want to lynch Leodanny because...?

AFAIR when he was one of the largest wagons, he kept his vote on RB who wasn't a wagon at the time, instead of switching to the other counterwagon Mala.

It's not particularly indicative but I think scum!Leo would've been coached earlier to place his vote in someplace useful, so to me he's leaning town. If Mala's scum I'd prolly re-evaluate here, though.

[Auro]

Hey, Auro, I've now created the SECOND LARGEST WAGON IN THE GAME! JOIN US!
Whoop-de-doo.

Sure.
VOTE: Malakitty, I want to see some votes from the non-voters now.

I did note some concern over rushing a lynch on you (or RB) because of the lurkslots earlier, but meh. No one's posting, and some apparently don't even bother, so I reasoned I might as well get a lynch I'm happy with.

GF isn't much of a stretch now, now that we've gotten the cop flip -- making it pretty likely for a GF to exist.

Creature never said you dictated it. He said Persivul was on to you, which you responded with something like "You think I was under that much pressure so as to dictate the NK?" and he responded saying you would dictate, which you combated saying it wasn't your scumplay.

And yeah, good enough comparatively. I was on to RB's inconsistency earlier, but it does make sense that HE could make those inconsistencies as town, and I was simply using a wrong baseline to make a judgment. I recall asking you to make a case on what else was scummy about him, but you didn't.

Also, the information gained by your scumflip is gonna be useful, as I pointed out. Clears both RB and Mala, and I'll go after Something_Smart next.

"Shade" here is your continuous hounding of me calling everything I do empty, and having me post extensively to prove it isn't -- which I doubt was even necessary. I've been asking people to read, I do want them to get involved as much as you do -- but your wagon having grown fast in this context isn't the same as usual, could simply imply you're being bussed, and/or have buddies within the no-vote slots. I'll make a note here to analyze this further when I'm actually free. I'll also note that I didn't like a couple of votes on your wagon, especially Nako's.

If you're town, I have no idea what you were aiming for, and your being town doesn't mean I can't disagree. I still *will* disagree on that, and sure, we can argue ad infinitum post-game. The case isn't empty.

[Auro]

i think we should lynch thor and auro true facts

at least it will make the game 132.7% more readable and fun

Gross.
Even grosser because everyone else seems to be lurking their butts off.

Yeah, on further thought Thor getting to lynch range with NO significant counterwagon with all scum alive implies pretty much his wagon was scum-motivated. Although I still think Thor has good scum equity, I'm not gonna vote there today.

I've been floppy on RB's slot because his play seems pretty bad on a surface level, but I keep feeling it's a playstyle thing. Going by the D1 flip alone though, Mala was appearing like the day's lynch and I don't see scum motivation on driving a wagon on a lynchbaity player if Mala's town.

@Thor, you locked on to RB being scum post flip. But isn't his Dunn push only mostly scum indicative if Mala's scum? What scum motive would he have otherwise? Also, you were scumreading Dunnstral as well, so FYPOV Dunn would have been a good vote.
If you agree with me on the first question, why weren't you pushing Mala over RB?
Also, speaking about Dunn, you scumread him for similar reasons IIRC and he flipped town. Why isn't this simply RB's playstyle?

@Nako, *finally* someone says what I've been saying all along.

[Auro]

Any scumflip is useful - welcome to empty example #524

Eh, compared to Leodanny - that slot's basically a gamble (which should flip town more likely), and a scumflip there gives us nothing. I'd rather that a PoE lunch at this point, I guess.

[Auro]

but we're pre-flip and logic dictates that scum are gonna be in you/auro/S_S

What is this "logic"?

@Creature, RB has mostly only been yelling reads without any real justification for anything - and when asked, the most you'd get out of him is "wow too much effort", and I bet he's going to respond to my above question the same friggin way. Which part of his play screams "reasonable" to you?

[Auro]

I asked about your logic on scum being in me/Thor/S_S.
You're just justifying your townread on Creature.

[Auro]

So you think Thor is a bad wagon?

[Auro]

"You've been on all bad wagons"

I was on the Thor wagon, which you were on as well.
I was on the Dunn wagon with you.
I was on the Leo wagon early D1 IIRC, which you were on recently as well.

Now, I've been on all bad wagons, right? Elaborate?

[Auro]

Day1 wagons

also you were on mala's wagon, but hey good job phrasing it as if there's not a big difference between me starting wagons and you just hopping on them advantageously?

Both the latter I stated were D1 wagons.
I still want Mala lynched.

So your case is - "Whenever Auro starts/is on a wagon that I'm not on, he's scum because BAD WAGONS, and if he's on a wagon I was on he's scum because it's opportunistic!".

[Auro]

Why not Malakittens?

[Auro]

Good work taking an RVS scumread, ignoring that late Day 1 I was trying to wagon build with him, and then complaining that I don't have a leg to stand on in calling a bad wagon bad. ::shrug::

You did say these in D1:

You feel kind of like you're sidelining and sticking to tearing down other things. You can also be a scumlean.

Probably you could infer by me saying I scum leaned Dunnstral that I scum read him also.

You're saying the above two didn't imply more than an "RVS" scumread?

Wow, you noticed the blatantly obvious - while complaining that I had issues with you not noting the blatantly obvious.

could simply imply you're being bussed, and/or have buddies within the no-vote slots.

I'll make a note here to analyze this further when I'm actually free

. I'll also note that I didn't like a couple of votes on your wagon, especially Nako's.

I never complained about your taking issue with it. I said there's a possibility you're being bussed or have buddies within the lurkers explaining the lack of a counterwagon, but noted to think about it more when I had the time. And here I am, after re-evaluating it.

Describe what info you would get from a scumflip from, let's say Mala, that you wouldn't get from a scum flip from Leo.
Then town flip each of them.
Then compare/contrast the wealth of info vs. the dearth.
I don't think you'll find much of a difference.

Okay.
Scumflip Mala -> Clears {Thor/Lamees}, Scum in {S_S/Egix/RB}, very probably RB.
Scumflip Leo -> Clears Thor, doesn't point to scum. Meh
Haven't thought much about the cases where they flip town, am just comparing the information gained on scumflips.
Besides, I've given my reasons for why I think Leo is more probably town than scum, given his vote staying on a non-wagon when he was wagoned.

[Auro]

It might be rb's playstyle, in fact I'm pretty sure I've lynched him before when both of us were town. That said - it is also a pro-scum playstyle, and since a lot of the other optimal competition are town reads I have that have nothing to do with a specific blindness toward's rb's playstyle, after the lynch he became a far more viable option.

I'm in agreement that his playstyle is pro-scum.
However, you've not answered the earlier - what's the scum motivation in trying to start a Dunn wagon so close to the deadline instead of letting the Mala lynch go through, unless he's scum *with* Mala? That's far from optimal move in that situation I think.

[Auro]

You're unironically claiming that a post made at 115 and confirmed at 212 (mostly to make fun of your inferal work) isn't?
I mean, I might suggest that's pretty early in the game where you're drawing 100% of your evidence from to support my really wild claim here.
Just saying.

Unless you TR'd Dunnstral later in the day, you don't get to call the wagon bad.
You never explicitly stated a TR on him later.
I'm not buying that wagon-building with him implied a TR.

Why would a Mala scumflip clear me or Lamees? Leo I could see for me, sure, but I pointedly ignored Mala until my neck was on the block, and Lamees is doing what there?
Why does Mala scum narrow the scumpool to S_S/Egix? I see your rb thought (though will explain why I doubt that's valid in a moment) but the other two?
Why doesn't a Leo scumflip offer a thought on rb and Lamees - the only two semi-valid pushes he's made?
Why doesn't a Leo scumflip suggest potential scum in people who've defended the wagon?

1. Effectively clears you because I don't imagine scum!her bussing you, and you don't bus ever (or so I've read ). Lamees also was proactive on the Mala wagon (861), in fact she started it -- so she effectively gets cleared.
2. It's not narrowing the scumpool to exactly that, but I'm confident on finding scum there. S_S because of his strong continued TR on Mala, and Egix because I recall he avoided the Mala wagon but jumped on to Leo and Dunnstral pretty fast.
3. Can see RB, but I'm not confident his pushes clear either of them as strongly as in (1) or (2).
4. It could, but again, pretty less confidence. IIRC Mala was the only other person apart from me who sorta defended the wagon, but she's who I want to lynch anyway.

Please show me the point you think this switch happened? I don't think it's remotely as potent as you're suggesting.

As to why without them being buddies? Well, simple possibility - both Dunn/Mala are town and rb is scum, in which case he could be white knighting, could be hoping to be off the wagon when Mala gets flipped, or could legit just not care and been fine if either Mala had gone through in which case he could push Dunn the next phase, or been happy to have Dunn go through in which case he could still have the Mala mislynch on the table.

I don't think these are shocking or unlikely scum plays, I assuredly do them, and have seen them a lot. You haven't?

viewtopic.php?p=10621114#p10621114
Mala and Leo were the two wagons, Leo wasn't going forward, Dunn had a lot of lynch energy, so yeah.
I'm aware of the possibilities, I accused you of the same in our last game when you moved off Volx at L-1 to Trendall and the slot got mislynched.
Thing is, starting and pushing a Dunn lynch knowing that it flips town gains him scum equity and he would *know* that. White-knighting is definitely possible, but if he aimed to just stay off the wagon, he needn't have

led

a Dunn wagon, he could've simply stayed where he was. I think this makes it less likely he's scum unless with Mala.

[Auro]

I'm admitting possibilities, I'm debating the probabilities.

[Auro]

Are scum lurking

or not

?

If Thor's scum and the lack of counterwagon is due to scum lurking, both scum have to be hard lurking so much that they didn't even drop in to cast a vote.

The lurkers prolly contain scum, but "Thor's wagon isn't fishy cos his buddies are lurkers!" isn't so likely.

[Auro]

He was one of the players doing reasonable stuff rather than just vomiting walls.

Really? You said this^, what "reasonable stuff"?

[Auro]

what i think are 4 separate town wagons is opportunistic

Which 4?

[Auro]

I honestly don’t see why people don’t want to flip one of Auro and thor

Disgusting. So you'd rather we lurk like you?
Honestly, I don't see why people don't want to flip one of you and RB. I thought you'd be less transparent with your scumgenda.

Mala: One of Auro, Thor is scum
RB: At least one of Auro, Thor is scum
Nako: One of Thor, RB is scum

Basically whenever Thor interacts with someone or makes a push, it's automatically a non TvT. Brilliant. This makes me believe Thor is likely town, especially with that counterwagonless wagon on him.

[Auro]

Who should I smite tonight if I die

I'd say RB or one of the lurkers.

[Auro]

Logic 101

[Auro]

Thor665 (L-3)

: Malakitty, Creature, rb

Malakitty (L-3)

: Thor665, Auro, Nako

DarkLightA (L-5)

: Lamees

Leodanny, DarkLightA, Something_Smart,
Egix96

what i think are 4 separate town wagons is opportunistic

Which 4?

@rb

[Auro]

My current towncore is Lamees+Creature+Auro

How are you TR-ing me this much when you've only played versus scum!me and misread me both times?
I'd expect town!Egix to be paranoid of me if not scumreading me.

@rb: Which 4 wagons was I opportunistically on?

[Auro]

Don't worry about it.

Also, I think you're forgetting about Lovers and Losers

I'm sorry but this is kinda pinging me still, I want to evaluate how genuine your own thought process on arriving at my townread is, here.

Also yeah I wanted to forget that game you did make a subtle pocketing attempt there tho come to think of it, so please do explain.

[Auro]

Thor/rb/DLA

Thor I can understand, though I'm kinda towning him now.
DLA I've been uncertain about, but sure, since she's also on the wagon.

Why rb? If Mala's red it directly implicates rb, so this means regardless of Mala's alignment you believe rb is potential scum, right?

In that case, why weren't you voting him when he was being wagoned? I just checked back and your vote was on DLA; however I pointed out that it doesn't seem like scum would push a claimed PR like that and you acknowledged that. Walk me through this?

[Auro]

what i think are 4 separate town wagons is opportunistic

Which 4?

@rb

@rb

[Auro]

VOTE: Creature
He got a prod.

You got two. Why shouldn't we lynch you?

[Auro]

Lamees, wth are you on about? When was I ever on the Persivul wagon? Bad shade.

If you're referring to Dunn,

I won't be hammering

I'll submit this is equally as scummy as my near-deadline hammer.

[Auro]

Thor665 (L-2)

: Malakitty, Creature, rb,
BBmolla

Malakitty (L-3)

: Thor665, Auro, Egix96

Auro (L-5)

: Lamees

Lamees (L-5)

: Succinct

Creature (L-5)

: Nako

Something_Smart

Auro thoughts on the evolution of Lamees's Thor read?

She never had a progression there. She doesn't really seem interested in solving the game or really scumhunting *shrug*

IIRC she kept him at null, offered intent to hammer when he was at L-1 some 5 days before the deadline, and is now avoiding both Thor and Malakitty, but still wants to lynch "anyone".

Dunno what to make of it.

[Auro]

Dunnstral was in your town core?

[Auro]

You kept him at null at 848, when did he become a slot you didn't want to lynch?

[Auro]

I was thinking the same^, her avoiding wagons close to the deadline and pouncing on whoever was on the wagon later is a bad look.

[Auro]

@Everyone: How does Thor almost get lynched 5 days before the deadline *without* ANY counter-wagon?
Do you guys seriously believe he's scum and his scumbuddies were bussing / downright ignoring that he was gonna get lynched?

[Auro]

If he claims cop, Lamees is the correct lynch today.

[Auro]

His predecessor was lurking, probably didn't understand mechanics, and it's possible he was trying to push you without having to claim.

Let's wait for the claim.

[Auro]

@Everyone: How does Thor almost get lynched 5 days before the deadline *without* ANY counter-wagon?
Do you guys seriously believe he's scum and his scumbuddies were bussing / downright ignoring that he was gonna get lynched?

Vote Creature.

Case on Creature apart from the prod?

[Auro]

You don't see what I was trying to do.

[Auro]

Go check the VC when Lam stated her ITH on him.

[Auro]

Woah. Why?

[Auro]

Actually don't. There's a pretty obvious reason I wouldn't be, and I think you're on the wrong track, but let's wait for Molla's claim first.

Don't answer now.

[Auro]

I think you should claim, Molla.

@rb: Good players understand and utilize mechanics.

[Auro]

Ugh.

If he claims cop, one of {Molla, Lamees} is lying, and therefore one of them should be lynched.

[Auro]

Not taking 1804 as an admission of a joke.
He should claim that he's cop or {not cop and joking}.
How do you know it's definitely the latter, given he's refusing to claim?

[Auro]

@rb: I'm already on Mala, WTH are you on about?

[Auro]

Where did he say it was a joke? He only said he fakes softclaims as town, he never said this softclaim was fake.

[Auro]

Yeah I'm really dumb, please just quote where he says it's a joke for me.

[Auro]

Thor665 (L-3)

: Malakitty, Creature, rb

Malakitty (L-3)

: Thor665, Auro, Egix96

BBmolla (L-5)

: Lamees

Lamees (L-5)

: Succinct

Creature (L-5)

: Nako

Something_Smart, BBmolla

Nope, I said I'm towning Thor. I don't think he gets to near lynch *5* days before the deadline with no counterwagon, and it's pretty lame for his buddies to blindly bus him with that much time remaining and loads of scummy slots.

[Auro]

yeah honestly my preferred lynch is auro, he's been absolutely trash for all of day2 but this game has been so stagnant it just isn't happening

Your play has been garbage the entire game, so...

[Auro]

You weren't when he was about to be lynched, I already pointed that out.

Also Thor's at L-3 if I'm not wrong, so is Mala.

[Auro]

And then BBMolla unvoted.

Someone's not reading the game.

[Auro]

"wow i can't believe scum would get near lynch after an entire week"

oml someone shoot me

Yeah I don't. It's idiotic for scum to bus him with the number of inactive/scummy slots there and make no attempt at all to create a counterwagon.

It's an obvious case of scum-driven quickwagoning.

[Auro]

Based off the last few pages Lamees is very likely town. I'm TRing Something_Smart too.

Mala+RB+Molla/Succint is the correct solve I think.

Note the resistance to the Mala wagon.

VOTE: Malakitty

[Auro]

^Scum.

I love this whole "One of Thor/Auro, walljerking yee" agenda everyone's pushing, without an actual case.

I'm hard-claiming NOT-COP right now. You guys can stop the continued Lamees shade, she's one of the only few players here who actually UNDERSTANDS the mechanics. While sure, you softclaim all the time as town, this was a terrible softclaim to pick since it's mechanically impossible unless Lamees is scum, and your refusal to retract the claim is scummy, doubly with how your buddies were reacting as well.

Turns out, if you're cop, and Lamees' claim is true, the total PR points add up to 10, when 9 is the maximum - thus, making one of you or Lamees a liar. Soft-claiming cop and shading the crap out of Lamees (who accurately called it out) is a terrible look.

Describe your case on me, case on Thor, and why Malakitty is town. Also, nice flip-flop on your Lamees read.

Wrong account, requoted.

@mod, please delete

[Auro]

Mala+RB+Molla/Succint is the correct solve I think.

there is no humanly possible way someone is town and has these reads

Uh huh. If I'm town, what's the best solve in your eyes?

[Auro]

@Molla,

I never said your softclaim was a 'scumslip', I was scumreading your reaction to our push to make you commit/retract from it.
There's no reason for that to necessarily come from town!Molla, and I've explained why I thought it's likelier to come from scum.

You're also scumreading me off "bad reads", let me address that:

Mala: I've been trying to push her since D1, you're saying the cases on her are scummy (which I'm making) and hence she's town and hence I've a bad read. This is sorta circular, cut that out and walk me through why my push on her is necessarily scummy?
RB: You'll see my read on him progress since D1 -- I've been pretty transparent about it.
Nako: You think I should scumread this slot, but I'm pretty "meh" about it - she doesn't seem to be pushing any agenda, for instance.
Egix: Am actually townleaning this slot, I dunno if I stated earlier - but their reads list in D2 where they pushed your slot couldn't have come from scum IMO, I can elaborate this further if needed.
Thor: I gave my reasons for towning this slot, major one being how it got to near-lynch significantly from the deadline - do you not see this logic coming from town?
Succint: Was townreading the slot pre-replacement, but the replacement is changing my mind there.

I've given my reasons for my reads, and your scumread of me seems to be from a) my opinions on your softclaim, and b) my reads. I've justified both of them, so let's talk.

[Auro]

I'm all for hashing out issues and reaching middle ground as either alignment - I'm still leaning scum on you, and a discussion there would help me build my read (or change my mind).

Do scum!Thor games usually make for an air of cluelessness and "lost towns"?

[Auro]

I feel like the Lamees-Succint interactions are distracting from the Thor/Mala/Me pushes. The lack of momentum on either of those wagons weakly indicates scum there (probs not Thor cause he nearly got lynched before, unless his buddies bussed him). I'd like to see people take a stance on this.

@Succint: I'm not the only one towning Lamees. The whole Molla situation was us trying to bait a hardclaim, and Something_Smart was cognizant and played along - which felt towny to me. People keep casing me for "bad reads", if you think my reads are bad friggin talk to me about them first?

[Auro]

Egix, you voted Mala in D2. Is your reason for switching to Thor now purely because of Mala's talk about self-voting?

[Auro]

Interesting how RB is trying to control and direct votes away from Mala.

[Auro]

Not voting from your townreads is one thing, directing people to pick from a specific pool of players is another.

Another example of someone not reading the game. I've been scumreading you for a good while, pal. Of course I'm "throwing doubt" over your intentions, as you conveniently ask to consolidate onto wagons which aren't Mala and just generate noise.

Thor's a bad lynch, people should just choose from {Mala, RB}.

[Auro]

Egix, Mala's AtE on self-hammering could *easily* come from scum!her too, remember that was at an hour before the deadline at L-3 with most offline.

No one really has a case on Thor, it's just a paranoia lynch. Look at how he nearly got lynched with little resistance a week ago versus how ruddy difficult it seems to lynch Mala. She does little to rebut the case on her while a very vocal faction is aggressively pushing Thor, do you not see the scum motivation here?

[Auro]

Like you're one of the players in this list I have a prior expectation of being reasonable, and I'm also kinda townreading you, I've no energy to pursue the pushes I want but it sucks we're seeing things this differently here.

[Auro]

It's not hypocritical, it was an intentional statement to show him what he's appearing to be doing.

[Auro]

Cause whatever he'd say to discredit/attack it would apply to himself. Get it?

[Auro]

I'm not hammering a townread, and it looks *obvious* to me how the scumteam is pushing for lynches and setting up future mislynches.

Lamees, you scumread Mala and RB, right? What does that say about their Thor push?

[Auro]

Is this you trying to guilt-trip me again?
Y'know, like you did in 1898?
Is your human mask slipping off!?

I'm sorry it comes off that way, but I'm just kinda annoyed how this playerlist seems so... entropic and vote-happy without any real reason.

[Auro]

Thor665 (L-1)

: Malakitty, rb, Lamees, BBmolla,
Something_Smart

Malakitty (L-4)

: Auro, Nako

Lamees (L-5)

: Succinct

Thor665, Egix96

Thor665 (L-4)

: Malakitty, rb

Malakitty (L-4)

: Something_Smart, Auro

Succinct (L-5)

: BBMolla

Nako (L-5)

: Egix96

BBmolla (L-5)

: Lamees

Lamees (L-5)

: Succinct

VC from a few pages ago @Succint

@Mala Being non-committal is a different issue, even there there's the lack of engagement and unpredictability making those slots harder to read and the gamestate more chaotic, which benefits scum. Ofc I'd be happy if you got wagoned, but it's still an issue nonetheless, I admit.

[Auro]

Yay Ruby <3

How confident are you in SS scum? I surfed through a few of his games early on and didn't find any big differences, but if you're *really* confident about this I'll sheep.

You think all scum's in your PoE? I'm not really feeling Nako tbh, she's not playing to any agenda.

[Auro]

feels like he's had a pretty good presence, if scum i wouldn't expect 333 posts from him

there are more real-time reactions/interactions than i expect from scum!him

Huh, in my scum games I've been really active, no? Like even the one you've played with me, Newbie 1898.

O.o

[Auro]

it's not a slam dunk on SS scum but i don't have any better targets atm

nako was just in the poe by virtue of me not townreading her

if you're tring her and creature was too then i think i'll probs just trust it for now

My reasoning sorta extended to SS too, it's quite dangerous in this gamestate to coast along IMO because of the unpredictability - who do ya think would be his partners here?

Like I really feel Mala/RB gain scum equity from the agenda they've been trying to push throughout, and also RB starting a new wagon at the near end of D1 when she was the top wagon...

[Auro]

Hmm~

I got pocketed by you for TRing me in that Lovers game, so I'm slightly paranoid on how you get TRs on me

But ok

[Auro]

We can only afford one more ML though? Can you summarize why Nako over SS?

[Auro]

How's this relevant?

I said " vote-happy", was showing how they were all over the place

@Egix yeah, what's the case on her?

[Auro]

Can't find it in your ISO, quote?

[Auro]

Nako (L-2)

: rb, Lamees, Egix96, BBmolla

Ruby Red (L-4)

: Malakitty, Something_Smart

Malakitty (L-4)

: Auro, Nako

Something_Smart (L-5)

: Ruby Red

Lamees (L-5)

: Succinct

Ohh sorry, my bad. I thought you were talking about Lamees in that post. I'm going to bed now, I'll give more thoughts on Nako tomorrow

[Auro]

@Egix: Nako and SS both have been "coasting" without any rigid stances. If they're scum, it's reasonable to assume they'd coast along some particular agenda in this gamestate, as opposed to placing votes haphazardly. Many of Nako's votes have been vanity -- like her votes on Creature and You -- which makes me believe she's town, and currently ML bait.

If you think Nako's scum, who do you think her buddies are?

[Auro]

@Mala: What's your case on me? I remember asking you this before, but if I haven't - *why* don't you think Thor v Auro can be TvT? Your jumping to the conclusion that it's necessarily TvS/SvS has been pinging me throughout the game, and is one of the major reasons I think you're scum.

Do you disagree with my assertion that a near-lynch days before the deadline with no counterwagon AT THAT TIME is town indicative? Every time I ask, you respond saying you were a counterwagon, but you weren't *at that time*.

Scum!Ruby can easily drive my ML here, given this gamestate - RB wants to lynch me, Molla's sheeping RB (??), Lamees doesn't care, you want to lynch me, S_S doesn't townread me, that's enough votes for a lynch. That she isn't is town indicative of her. Tbf she did do this in L&L, but I think the context was widely different.

[Auro]

@Ruby: I'd like it if you could get more involved in the game btw, I don't really think I'll make it to the next day for ~reasons - I want to contribute as much as I can to solve the game.

I'm happy sheeping you onto SS if you're confident enough in your meta read, but I really feel like Mala's scum here and we have only one more ML - if SS flips town one of us would be the next day's lynch for sure.

Are you townleaning Mala for more than those few posts, or was that the entirety? I feel like she's scum for multiple reasons, including the wagon dismantling late D1, resistance to a lynch, activity patterns, "Thor/Auro is TvS", and so on. What do you think?

Who'd be SS' partners here if he flips red?

[Auro]

one level of scumplay that i think a lot of people operate on is just to attempt to look towny without really much thought to deliberately pushing a scum agenda beyond favoring lynching town. i think it's likely that both SS and nako fall into that category

At least in Nako's case it's different - she's favoring absolutely empty wagons like Creature/Egix, I think she had an opportunity to hammer your slot but didn't, when everyone was thirsty for a lynch - don't you think that indicates she isn't scum?

I'm finding it hard to believe she's scum just playing super-randomly for the lulz and not caring about the major pushes being thrown around :$

[Auro]

That's a dumb question.

I wanna help solve before I die, thank you.

Why is it dumb?

[Auro]

If Nako's scum, her lack of vote on Thor at L-1 (given she didn't townread him AFAIR) indicates either

1. She's scum with Thor's slot and my read's wrong (or)
2. She genuinely wanted a different ML. I can't think of any major reasons, maybe cause her partners were driving the lynch and they'd be targeted the next day?

I don't see scum!Nako going for (2) here and I'm townreading ThorSlot, so I think she ain't red.

[Auro]

^Check the votecount at the top of page 81, and then the last post on page 80 - she votes Mala instead of Thor

[Auro]

Nako (L-2)

: rb, Lamees, Egix96, BBmolla

Ruby Red (L-4)

: Malakitty, Something_Smart

Malakitty (L-4)

: Auro, Nako

Something_Smart (L-5)

: Ruby Red

Lamees (L-5)

: Succinct

i need links if you're going to convince me of anything, doesn't need to be a case but i need you to literally direct me specifically to what you're talking about

On my mobile RN, proper links and cases I'll do it the evening when I get on my computer, few hours from now.

Lamees also I've been sorta townleaning on, one reason being her "IDC I'll lynch anyone" attitude, I'm disliking that she's not even trying to gamesolve.

But yeah, as you said I'm prolly projecting my own idea of good scumplay and townreading people for it so I'll have to re-evaluate there. I've played multiple games with town!Lam and never with scum!Lam, I feel the reasons people were scumreading her are kinda empty TBH.

Given her Angel claim, if she's in your PoE wouldn't she be a better lynch, since if she's town we get the equivalent of a cop check (framer can't operate in Twilight), there's a chance of a false positive on an immortal but I think on a whole it should be useful. Thoughts?

[Auro]

You give why Nako's town here; I'm disinclined to disagree. However, this defense's specific to Nako.

You note the scum trend you'd expect for Something_Smart and offer no reason why it's absent.

Why's Something_Smart not a focal point for you?

He's coasting but the same defense doesn't apply to him, he hasn't started vanity wagons at inopportune times. I'm actually down to lynch him over Nako cos I trust Red's read; if we can't get a wagon there I'll hammer Nako before deadline though.

[Auro]

Willing to lynch Mala more than SS, though, if it wasn't clear.

[Auro]

Malakitty (L-1)

: Auro, Nako, Something_Smart,
Egix96, Lamees

Nako (L-3)

: rb, BBmolla, Malakitty

Something_Smart (L-4)

: Ruby Red, Succinct

In that case, how should I know? Scum can kill anyone who's not one of them, for whatever reason.

Yeah, SS needs to note that there are three scum alive, Nako isn't the only one - plus town!Creature is easy to read and thus a difficult mislynch.

[Auro]

And Mala's at L-1.

[Auro]

Didn't think a Mala lynch was possible today, but it clearly is now.

[Auro]

@Succint: Loaded accusation, and a bad one.
I can't *disprove* it, but rest assured that if the SS wagon had majority vocal support and was the only contender to Nako, I would've voted there.
My vocal proclamation of a wagon I'd hop on as opposed to a shitwagon on a townread isn't scum-indicative, bud.
Mala's my strongest scumread I've been trying to push since forever, of course I'd want to lynch her over anyone else.

@Red: We're a couple hours from the deadline, vote Mala please - I'm pretty confident it's Mala+RB+Succint/Molla, if she flips green I'll sheep you on SS tomorrow.

[Auro]

Strange, I thought you said you'd be dead by D4.

If Mala flips green I'd be a really bad NK, since I've been pushing for her lynch the most so far.

[Auro]

I was set up to be the mislynch, given my hard-pushes on Mala all these days.

I'm still meh on Nako, scum's on the wagon and IMO it's Something_Smart > Lamees = Egix > Nako.

I think lynching Lamees and voting for a Vengekill in case she's town is the right move here; SS preferably.

I'm fine starting - are we doing popcorn?

[Auro]

VT. Something_Smart next.

[Auro]

Succint and Nako haven't.

[Auro]

What conclusion are you drawing from Succint and Lamees' reactions? IMO since scum know the PRs, if your claim's right it's likelier for scum to "believe" it; this gives Lam some townpoints.

I'm a bit lost as to the solve after the Mala flip. If I'm town-cleared, say, who do you reckon would probably be scum here?

Something_Smart

's shade on me seems agenda-driven, I was hard-pushing Mala and it's really easy to paint the hard-pusher as scum while the sheeps get away.

Ruby's

still town - She can read me pretty well; and as I pointed out before scum!Red could easily get away pushing me. The weird NK actually points to town!Me here, since scum!Me would *always* rather kill Red especially after she said she's reconsidering her read on me.

Nako

I'm flipping on; I felt she was playing without an agenda and that was town-indicative, but her staying on Mala is making me reconsider.

Lamees

I'm back to townreading, and I wonder what Succint's current read there is: I really doubt scum!Lamees fakeclaims and self-votes readily in MyLo.

Succint

's looking a lot like scum - He accuses *me* of "not bussing" Something_Smart when my then-biggest scumread was at L-1, and his continuous pushes on towny slots (Initially, Creature; Now Lamees) is fishy.

RB

is also a scum-candidate, I don't get all the townreads on him: Spells more like scum who *knew* Mala was town, and continuously shaded me in previous days to help set me up as today's mislynch.

Egix

I think as scum would be a bit more proactive, at least from what I remember from his games I've read; fakeclaiming doesn't *really* make sense given he didn't appear like a prominent push today anyway.

Going by individual scumreads my solve would be {Succint, Something_Smart, RB}.

[Auro]

I'm confident enough in my Red townread, a little less than my SS scumread so yeah, I think if you do townread me we have nearly the same solve.

If you're scumreading me, let's talk it out?

[Auro]

Lamees (L-3)

: Succinct, Lamees

Auro, Nako, rb, Egix96, Something_Smart,
Ruby Red

Immortal is a huge issue though.

How confident are you in your ability to hit scum?

If I were to take a stab at self-meta, I've heard my "tone" differs a lot between my town and scumgames. My scum tone has been called "frozen" in the past, and it's pretty hard to fake the fluidity I apparently otherwise happen to have as town.

I can't truly be objective about this, but DVa and Red are both pretty good at reading me; neither scumreading me should be saying something.

Thor and me being W/W is a bad theory; Lamees will say nothing's out of my scumrange, the question here isn't "Could they do that", rather "Would they" (the pages and pages of 1v1).

Thor's personal philosophy at least is to always have your buddies as nullreads or town, and choosing to bog down the thread continuously with your scumbuddy and putting yourselves in the spotlight isn't the best of strats - what would it achieve? The 1v1 could've easily resulted on a lynch on either of us, and if we were W/W it really wouldn't have given the other much towncred either. Plus, if I was buddies with Thor I would've tried to prevent his lynch much earlier, before he was at L-1 with no counterwagon; given I began to townread him later, no harm done if I did townread him before that happened anyway. Also important is the progression of his read on my slot - specifically, look at the last few interactions we had. It seems pretty genuine, and I can't think of any motivation as to why we'd end things that way as scum partners.

[Auro]

Whoops, accidental quote. Ignore.

[Auro]

Think that happens when you missclick the Q+ in the corner. Probably not alignment indicative

Yeah that's my theory as well. Should've previewed first haha.
Why do you believe I'm immortal?

[Auro]

i'm surprised you townread me here auro honestly

I was townreading you before you replaced in.

[Auro]

so what are the odds that nako + succint + thor/ruby are all town along with mala?

my solve is currently nako/succint/ruby or auro

thoughts?

The only intersection in our solves is Succint. I think bussing would happen in this scenario since scum overall just need one mislynch, so I'm happy voting there

[Auro]

not just voting town, but _vanity_ voting town

Naive town.

[Auro]

why would bussing happen in this scenario

and why is nako town to you

I don't think anyone (apart from Egix maybe) is guaranteed not to be a lynch option today, and scum need just one more mislynch. It'll look good for scum just in case town ends up lynching one of their buddies, so it's to scum advantage to bus as part of their solves.

I've described my Nako read earlier - she reads naive town to me with all those vanity votes, after the Mala flip though I'm reconsidering. I wouldn't lynch her first.

Why can't her play simply be bad town?

[Auro]

You said Something_Smart's lurking was diff from Nako's, and he exhibited pro-town behaviors, elaborate?

What's the scum strategy in deliberately voting vanity wagons continuously?

[Auro]

There's a difference, I was seeking as to how he was town despite the lurking whereas Nako's lurk was scum-indicative.

[Auro]

Happy with Succint. I'm not defending her exactly, she's still yellow to me as I pointed out. I'm trying to sort her slot as lurkerscum or lurkertown, but more definite on Succint.

If he continues scumreading Lamees I'll be even happier lynching it

[Auro]

as i see it, people who hide from giving any kind of indication what they think, yet end up on multiple town wagons anyway, are likely to be scum? agreed or not? give me an opinion.

This should be town indicative for me then, I've been pretty transparent about my town and scumreads.

[Auro]

You and Succint are both trying to manipulate me into stances; Succint that I vote for S_S despite my stronger scumread on Mala and her being at L-1 at the time, and you that I necessarily have to scumread Nako.

I'm not being stubborn about Nako, I admitted she was in the yellow multiple times and I'm still trying to sort - and I simply don't trust your slot ATM, if that wasn't clear yet. I wanna hear Egix/Red's opinions on her first.

[Auro]

Why am I scum? Because I'm trying to sort Nako and not sheeping RB? That's a ridiculous reason.

[Auro]

S_S, succinct, rb

, lamees is willing to lynch and scum read auro.

I.e. my solve for the scumteam is ready to lynch me?

@Red about time you get in the game...

[Auro]

Why can't it be Succint?

[Auro]

He was willing to lynch me because I'm town and it's a mislynch. Your argument for him being town relies on me being scum, and me being scum that I'm in your PoE where he's town.

Circular Logic, Lamees. He was siding with them ON lynching me, which is circular again, and YOU were his top scumread both times. If I'm town OF COURSE it'd make sense for him to be scum.

[Auro]

And considering SS is in your townpool, Succint wanting to lynch SS - how on earth is that town?

[Auro]

so what you're saying is...you and succinct are probably both scum and you're bussing?

You guys are painting that I'm W/W with literally everyone, including my scumreads, so even if I manage to get scum lynched now I'm set up as the mislynch in the future. :$

[Auro]

Town

wanting to lynch

town

doesn't indicate

scum

.
Since it's this late in the game. I have to form a base then PoE the rest. Want do you want exactly? A 100% proven scum case? So all scum has to do is not claim scum or scum slip. And they win every game?

You were on all town lynches so far, so either your reasoning is nothing to brag about or you're scum. So my reasoning doesnt need to make sense to you.

Circular again.
Wanting to lynch town is scum-indicative.

No, I want you to consider the facts.

• I wasn't too fond of being on Dunn's wagon, I lynched so
  we didn't end up no-lynching D1
  .
  
• I wasn't being scumread by DVa, who's great at tone-reading me; was townread by DLA, and even Molla was coming around on me, NK'd.
  
• I'm being weak-townread by Egix, who *lost* to scum-me both times and is super familiar with my scumgame.
  
• I was being prob-townread by Ruby Red, who's also great at reading me and recognizing scum!Me.
  
• I would've NK'd Red *obviously* as scum when she said she was gonna reconsider.
  
• It's damn easy for scum to avoid mislynches because they have TMI; textbook scum strat to target someone vocal on a mislynch.
  
• My exchanges with like, every slot are being painted as W/W, setting me up as a mislynch EVEN if we lynch scum today.
  
• I've been taking stances and generally active this game, compared to a bunch of other slots.
  
• I fought against very easy wagons such as Thor's in-game, with NO real incentive to do so - I could've very easily just "stayed off" without fighting it, like how scum stayed off Mala's mislynch

My defense isn't just "Hey I'm not scummy", there's a very valid set of reasons that all holistically point to town!me, and it should be very easy to recognize that I'm being pushed as today's mislynch (All 3 of my scumreads) which you're buying.

[Auro]

Whatever case I make on my scumreads, you're going to dismiss it with "they're town you're scum lol".

If I say Succint has just been pushing shitty lynches and not taking any REAL opinions (which RB, your hero, agrees on) you'll say "Oh but town doing those things isn't town-indicative".
If I say RB has been scum manipulating and make a case, you'll probably say "Oh well I townread him, there's no reason to think so"
If I say Something_Smart has been silent scum pushing an agenda without really hard-committing anywhere, you'll say "Oh maybe he's scum but Idc".
If I say Nako looks more town than scum to me you'll say "Of course you'd defend your scumbuddy".
If I say Egix/Red's town you'll say "Yeah possible scum partner"

This is textbook confirmation bias, unless you're willing to consider me town and work out who could be scum, and THEN evaluate what's believable and what's not. And before you call me defensive, we need to get ALL three scum *without* a single mislynch in successive days - it's important to me that while I solve for scum I also disband wild W/W theories y'all throw out.

Engage in good faith?

[Auro]

"Town wanting to lynch another town"
How do you KNOW the former here is town? You don't, right? Why can't I be town wanting to lynch town!Malakitty in D2? Also If one of your townreads wants to lynch another townread, there's a problem there, no?

You're acknowledging Succint/Me isn't W/W then? If he's lynched, will that point towards me being town? Where'd I preach that I'd prefer a no-lynch over a TOWNread lynch? Dunnstral was a null-slot - not my PREFERRED lynch, but better than a no-lynch. Thor was a TOWNREAD slot, a no-lynch was better.

I already made the case against Thor/Me being W/W, Thor never distances that way early in game and especially never walls and walls of it with no purpose.

Sure - let's talk about my towncase on me then, before we move to the scumcases.

[Auro]

I didn't "force off" your town considerations as ridiculous - I said scumreading me because I townread Nako and didn't sheep RB is ridiculous if that was your only reason.

As I said, my best bet rn is that all scum are in {Succint, Something_Smart, RB, Nako}. Nako I'm a little weak on and hesitant on because of RB's push on her; but if Egix and Red see scum!Nako I'll give it more thought.

Which one of my scumreads do you wanna talk about?

[Auro]

That's because you said "He's willing to lynch Auro/SS" in your first line when I asked why he's town.
Yes, I'm saying willingness to lynch shouldn't be reason to call someone town; and willingness to lynch a slot you townread definitely shouldn't.

[Auro]

Auro (L-4)

: Lamees

Lamees (L-4)

: Succinct

Auro, Nako, rb, Egix96, Something_Smart,
Ruby Red

If we lynch Succint today successfully, will you reconsider your scumread on me tomorrow then?

[Auro]

Oh, okay then. So you meant he wasn't tunnelled purely on my slot, and that's town indicative? Okay, fair; but I think the rest of the evidence points to scum!him.

[Auro]

1) I'm not counting who'll join and who'll not right now - I'm focused on solving the game and making a strong case, since it's MyLo. RB has Succint in his lynch list so will join me; Egix/Ruby could join me, and you could if I manage to convince you. Nako IDK.

2) Don't take it in bad faith - think about it from my PoV, I'm being painted as a ML and being paired with my own scumreads, so it's important I disband W/W theories. I don't *know* he'll flip scum for sure, but if he does it should objectively give me some towncred, yes - bringing it up shouldn't mean I'm partners with him.

Like I could ask you "which person, if lynched, will make you reconsider your scumread on me", it should have SOME answer, right? Otherwise it's a tunnel, no?

[Auro]

Well he is still tunnelled on my slot. But is willing to vote ss or you. So not super tunnelled. If that makes sense.

It's pretty easy for scum to have a lynchpool of three people where at least two of those are town.
In this case, you and me.

[Auro]

Yes, at that point I was scumreading both Malakitty and Something_Smart; I was townreading Nako. AFAIR this happened:

• I said I'd lynch Something_Smart over Nako, when she was at L-1 or something.
  
• Something_Smart shifted the wagon to Malakittens and she got to L-1.
  
• Succint said "Call your bluff, vote Something_Smart now" while Mala was at L-1; I was more strongly scumreading Mala then and I refused.

Thing is, it does make sense for Succint and Something_Smart to be W/W here because Succint tried to start a wagon *hours* before the deadline when Mala was already at L-1, knowing full well Something_Smart wouldn't be lynched that day. It was just an effort to make me look bad. Makes sense?

And even today, as I said before it's to scum advantage to bus because in case scum gets lynched today, it becomes super obvious who else is scum otherwise. So it's easy for him to have a lynchpool of three people with one of them (SS) being scumbuddies.

[Auro]

Think about it. Saying "I call your bluff, vote them or you're scum with them" just a few hours before the deadline with the other person having a stronger scumread at L-1, is setting up that slot. In this case he'd *know* Something_Smart is scum; so if Something_Smart flips I'm easily painted as scum again in this situation.

Get what I'm saying?

[Auro]

Scum!Succint and town!SS is possible in isolation, if both of his scumbuddies are out of danger of being lynched. If that's true then Ruby would probably be my incorrect townread who's scum with him; what do you think?

[Auro]

If he's scum with SS, yeah. You tell me whether SS could've realistically been lynched when he went all "I call your bluff" and vanity voted SS.

[Auro]

As I said, two town and one scumbuddy in the lynch pool. Do you think that's an unlikely position for scum to take?

[Auro]

Are you saying he is willing to bus his scum budsy

Of course. I argued this earlier, no? Given many slots are potential lynches, as scum I'd not post an all-town lynchpool since if it happens that scum get lynched, I get towncred from it + if I get lynched, my townreads get cleared. So for scum it makes sense to bus at least one of their buddies; since on the off chance one of them gets lynched the other gets towncred.

Agree?

[Auro]

But it can't be a vanity vote if he was willing to lynch the slot, so not a bluff then. And if he was willing to lynch ss today and yesterday then that is more likely town not w/w

It was a vanity vote; the only evidence he was willing to lynch it is his word for it. As I said, you go check yourself and temme if that wagon would take off when he placed the vote there.

Empty words.

[Auro]

Auro (L-4)

: Lamees

Lamees (L-4)

: Succinct

Auro, Nako, rb, Egix96, Something_Smart,
Ruby Red

I'm concerned that Red hasn't as well. Her "I'm surprised you're townreading me, I'd scumread myself" seems like a jibe at me tbh :$

[Auro]

Yeah, she should understand that if she were scum and you were town, she could get you lynched easily.

At a cost - mislynching me would be a scumclaim in D3 for Ruby; doing that would've gotten her lynched today.

The optimal position for her to be in WRT my slot, as scum, is to keep me at town but also be open to reconsideration, and declare me scum in a MyLo/LyLo situation.

However, she didn't do that today while there was considerable pressure on me in MyLo so I still think she's town.

[Auro]

Continued feeling that Succint is setting me up for after his lynch, we should wait for his explanation and Nako's replacement probably.

[Auro]

Everyone has auro in their scumpool somewhere. This isn't coincidence. Let's just go for it.

3 scum, 5 town.
All 3 scum in my solve have me in their scumpools.
*No* town has me in their scumpool, except you (which you can't justify) - Egix, Ruby, and we don't know Nako's pool.

Indeed it isn't coincidence, it's scum pushing me as a mislynch, and you buying it.

[Auro]

Which part of it doesn't make sense to you?

[Auro]

Succinct (L-4)

: rb

Something_Smart (L-4)

: Succinct

Auro (L-4)

: Lamees

Auro, Nako, Egix96, Something_Smart,
Ruby Red

I have independent reasons to scumread you two; and there's no reason to believe Succint isn't scum with you.

• His vanity vote on you hours from the D3 deadline
  
• His continuous push on us as scumbuddies, to push me as a ML in case you're lynched
  
• His recent flail and vote for you when it's clear no one's lynching Lamees
  
• Scum bussing is expected in this gamestate, as I explained earlier