Starcraft Mafia: 2 -- Game Over!


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Post Post #1325 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:54 am

Post by Mewtaph »

In post 1322, u r a person 2 wrote:This is messing with my read because I'm not sure if this is some sort of gambit or if you sincerely misunderstand the logic. Make no mistake, Alchemist's logic is fine in these two posts.

Given, Mephisto gives an out to stw

Assert scum wouldn't give an out to town because it doesn't benefit scum to take the pressure off of town
Assert scum wouldn't give an out to scum because they would do it in scum chat

Conclude, mephisto must be town.

I'm not saying that I agree - scum might give an out to town under the right circumstances - but the thought process is consistent between the two posts and, imo, shows generally townie thought processes.

If this makes sense, please tell me how, if at all, it affects your read
I'm not pushing that his logic is inherently incorrect = he is scum. From a game context perspective, there's very little correlation between to to how it relates to Mephisto to Shoshin the worst. Their reasoning is kind of general on how scum might approach the situation (but not set in stone) and he uses that to create some complex line of thought where he ends at Mephisto being town. He hasn't really followed up on why he relates it to Mephisto to Shoshin the worst. Alchemist is saying in an interactions based way that Mephisto is town, but has no compelling reason to think in this way - it feels like trying to create a complex thought process when there's next to no point of going to this extent in justifying a town read that you could justify in several other ways than the one presented. Then he uses the same post as a strong reason to town read him when asked. That's why it feels insincere to me. It appears as a "complex" and hence townie thought process.
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Post Post #1326 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:59 am

Post by Mephistophanes 39 »

Spoiler:
In post 1236, Michael Scott wrote:
In post 588, Shoshin the worst wrote:
In post 585, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 577, Shoshin the worst wrote:I don't understand why you think there's no town motivation in our slot pushing/scumreading you. It's pretty simple. We scumread you.
The fact you can't engage with me about why we shouldn't scumread you or should townread you had me baffled.
I believe that there can be a town motivation for scumreading me. I didn't say town!you town!reads me 100%

We can post game why I'm not into reading myself in the thread. It basically boils down to the wifom/not wifom discussion you're in the middle of and my having no interest in having those types of discussions
The problem we're having here is that you kicked off this rabbit hole discussion by voting us because you believe town!tw should be townreading you, plus the hydra dynamic which for the umpteenth time should not be deemed alignment indicative.

I'm trying to parse how you came to the conclusion that it's scum indicative for us to be scumreading you and pushing you just because the worst and you have history. I still do not understand your rationale here.

If you think TW should >rand be townreading you, we definitely need a better metric against which to measure your towntells, because it means what we are doing at the moment is on the wrong track.

This conversation is pretty important. If you do need to back out of it for
holistic playstyle/meta reasons
we understand but also please try to see that from our perspective, that leaves you joining out wagon late into its formation for almost exactly no reason...
In post 591, pinturicchio wrote:
In post 577, Shoshin the worst wrote:I could give it a go with pintu but I'm not sure it'd get me anywhere.
I'm pocketed without the need of you doing anything <3

@Varsoon, I have a towntell on the duck, on the same line of your "stretch your minds" of Shoshin. I've seen the duck using the
"holistical reads"
as town before and can't recall him doing it as scum.

By the way @duck, why scumreading us? Felt like it came out of nowhere.

-Pin
TW actually used the phrase “holistic playstyle/meta reasons” here, not “holistical reads”. I looked into this, and TW using phrases like “holistic meta” or “holistic read” is definitely not a towntell for him. In fact, he used the phrase “holistic meta” in the first Starcraft game (as scum) four different times. I searched TW’s posts for the phrases “holistic meta”, “holistic read”, “holistic play”, and “holistic playstyle” as this is what I found:

TW has used the phrase “holistic meta” four times in the first Starcraft game as scum (link: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970):

Link to the first post where he used “holistic meta”: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10584202&hi ... #p10584202
In post 517, the worst wrote:
In post 278, Varsoon wrote:P-EDIT:
Everything above the pedit is cringe
Everything below the pedit is locktown-irl

Varsoon I think you're really caught up on like holistic meta stuff and I'm like... not all that interested in it.... do you think the reads have been bad? maliciously intended? which ones? why?
Link to the second post where he used “holistic meta”: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10595081&hi ... #p10595081
In post 1594, the worst wrote:But I'm also wary of the fact I'm fucking easily triggered by people using bullshit holistic meta tells so I might be seeing red
Link to the third post where he used “holistic meta”: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10595151&hi ... #p10595151
In post 1638, the worst wrote:since no one is seeing what I'm seeing:
Mewtaph has asked Xtoxm the same question a lot of us have already asked him (which townreads gave him pause)

I think he's already answered that question really well, and I think his answer was town indicative. Mewtaph has ignored his reads and later contribution and comments about playstyle anxiety leading him to freak out about the early townreads. Follow his reads and it's probably pretty clear that he had his own takes, but the Big Bad Townblock was too much for him to like.

Mewtaph thinks he's a mislynch / has not noticed that Xtoxm's initial freak-out about the townreadspam actually kinda checks out, so shades him for not responding and votes him over ellitell

I ask Mewtaph to back the ellitell up with an actual scumcase. He cites the very early part of Xtoxm's contributions. I ask him to go back to his later iso and show me which of Xtoxm's posts are making him still feel that way

Nancy randomly charge-tackles me to the ground and Mewtaph stands there watching us and acting all surprised that I asked him to back up this read.

Like idfk he hasn't warlocked Nancy, she did it of her own volition but I'm fucking done if I'm being shaded for asking someone who's done sweet fuck all to back up a horseshit holistic meta tell with an actual scumcase on a slot I'm townreading
Link to the fourth post where he used “holistic meta”: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77970&p=10615025&hi ... #p10615025
In post 2977, the worst wrote:
In post 2975, Xtoxm wrote:I have to be able to trust that townies won't make reckless antitown plays like that.
You for real? I think Perf is scum but his hammer is the most defensible part of his ISO. The hell else was he meant to do with like 6 hours remaining? NM was clearly a very viable lynch candidate and imo if he was going to claim at all he would have already done it.

I'm kinda flashing back to something someone said to me pretty recently but if scum always made reckless antitown moves and town never did mafia would be like.. obscenely easier than it is. do you have reasoning other than an holistic meta dislike of hammers on unclaimed slots?

TW used the phrases “holistic meta” and “holistic gamestate read” one time each in Newbie 1866 as town (link: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76047)

Link to the post where he used “holistic meta”: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76047&p=10178131&h ... #p10178131

Link to the post where he used “holistic gamestate read”: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76047&p=10201152&h ... #p10201152


TW used the phrase “holistic readthrough” one time In Newbie 1870 as town (link: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76282)

Link to the post where he used “holistic readthrough”: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76282&p=10264643&h ... #p10264643


TW used the phrase “holistic read” one time in Open 737 as town (link: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77146)

Link to the post where he used “holistic read”: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=77146&p=10453007&h ... #p10453007

No results came up for “holistic play” or “holistic playstyle” when searching TW’s posts.

Granted, TW has used phrases like “holistic read” or something along those lines as town, but in this game the exact phrase he used in post was “holistic playstyle/meta reasons”, and he has used “holistic meta” four times as much as scum than he has as town. In any case, TW frequently uses the word “holistic” in general (there are 41 results for just the word “holistic” when searching TW’s posts), so at best him using the phrase “holistic playstyle/meta reasons” is NAI for him. So
@Pinturicchio
, why were you so quick to label this as a “towntell” for TW when it clearly isn’t?

And
@The Worst
, what are your thoughts on Pinturicchio incorrectly applying this as a “towntell” for your slot?

- Date Mike (Volxen)


Acupuncture has nothing on “holistic meta”, I guess. :lol:

Interesting.

~N

Large multiquote spoilered -- Krazy
Last edited by Krazy on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1327 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:02 am

Post by Almost Chara »

i finally, finally, understand what Mewtaph is saying about Alchemist with respect to those two posts.
i think there have been some issues with word choice/communication that have made something simple seem a lot more complicated than it was.

i'm agreeing with the Mewtaph townread, though it's not that strong. don't feel like lynching him today. my reasons are essentially the same as Varsoon's.
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Post Post #1328 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:02 am

Post by Mewtaph »

Following on my previous post. More specifically, it hedges on Varsoon vs STW which is a much more significant point of interest and making a strong conclusion there, while throwing out some sense of analysis that ends in Mephisto being town which is only really relevant in diffusing hostility between STW and Mephisto which is much less relevant. It's misplaced focus.
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Post Post #1329 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:03 am

Post by Mephistophanes 39 »

In post 1237, ProFlavor wrote:That’s a lot of words for what could have been

TW used the word holistic 41 times over a certain time period / X as town / Y as scum so it’s NAI
Then ask why point disagreed


Why use 100 words when you can use 10 eh


~ woof
This game should be changed to War of Words Mafia.

First we had “stretch your mind”, then “venom”, now “holistic meta”.

Anything, I’m forgetting?



Spoiler:
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Post Post #1330 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:07 am

Post by u r a person 2 »

In post 1327, Almost Chara wrote:i finally, finally, understand what Mewtaph is saying about Alchemist with respect to those two posts.
i think there have been some issues with word choice/communication that have made something simple seem a lot more complicated than it was.

i'm agreeing with the Mewtaph townread, though it's not that strong. don't feel like lynching him today. my reasons are essentially the same as Varsoon's.
~Chara
Could you explain it to me please?
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Post Post #1331 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:19 am

Post by Mewtaph »

What don't you follow in ?
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Post Post #1332 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:25 am

Post by Almost Chara »

i don't know of a better way to explain it.
the issue isn't a lack of logic between those two Alchemist posts (which is what i thought Mewtaph was saying for a while). it has to do with Mewtaph thinking the thought process from Alch is made up and explaining why he doesn't find it genuine. and that it's a strange read to come out with at the time Alch did.

i don't actually find this behaviour from Alch to be scummy, but i understand what Mewtaph is thinking.

unrelated: is your avatar Roxas, Mewtaph?
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Post Post #1333 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:13 am

Post by Almost Chara »

In post 1276, Mewtaph wrote:As far as Almost being busy, sure, but I need more from him because he's the head I am most equipped to try to read.
My friend.. >I< am not equipped enough to read myself. :lol:

So, what do you want to talk about?

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Post Post #1334 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:15 am

Post by Almost Chara »

Also, I have been here for like 3 days and you weren't. Now I get my share of real life responsibilities, but I'm sure I can spare a few minutes for you if you have something specific to discuss.

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Post Post #1335 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:16 am

Post by Almost Chara »

Actually, 101/2 :P
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Post Post #1336 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:22 am

Post by Almost Chara »

In post 1264, Mewtaph wrote:On AC: They aren't a town read and I'm much more interested in exploring where Kokichi is going with this rather than discarding what he's saying completely and toss him into the "ML and ignore" pile. A50 has been notably "muted" in presence compared to what I expect from him in other games, so if someone has a chip on the Chara head then I'm willing to roll with a wagon on them.
A50 doesn't always talk much, and certainly not in a hydra. I have my time to speak, time to sit aside and watch, and even time to actually ignore the thread completely. That's the point of having a hydra partner to carry you when you're attending to other stuff in life.

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Post Post #1337 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:32 am

Post by Mewtaph »

I don't think I'm in any real position to ask anything of you atm, but you maintaining a reasonable presence whenever you can is much appreciated.
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Post Post #1338 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:35 am

Post by Varsoon »

I'm around, too, Mew.
I have a really hard time reading your posts for some reason
Like it is difficult for me to maintain focus on them for any amount of time

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Post Post #1339 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:40 am

Post by Krazy »

Votecount 1.12

Shoshin the worst(4)
~ (7), (162), (40), (70)

Mewtaph(4)
~ (68), (231), (89), (215)
pinturicchio(2)
~ (89), (116)
NicoRobin(2)
~ (62), (99)
u r a person 2(1)
~ (45)
Almost Chara(1)
~ (14)


Not Voting (0):

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-01-16 22:05:38)


MOD REMINDERSNicoRobin is being replaced.

FLAVOR
Spoiler:
vote conspiracy
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Post Post #1340 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:44 am

Post by Mewtaph »

Hey Vars.
Yeah that's sometimes a problem, I wouldn't worry about getting through my posts too much.
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Post Post #1341 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:46 am

Post by Varsoon »

I've been trying to force myself because I feel bad about what happened in Starcraft 1 where I just kinda glossed all your posts and never developed a really informed read on you and you flipped town there.

Anyway, you really seem like an obviously offered up counterwagon to STW and the STW-resistance bothers me so
We've got 48 hours left, what should we do to make the most of that time?

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Post Post #1342 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:52 am

Post by Mewtaph »

Not sure atm, I think we know where everyone kind of stands except for a couple people who haven't checked in for a while. Looking there can probably help generate more content before the day ends.
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Post Post #1343 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:54 am

Post by Varsoon »

Everyone's voting, though.
What do you think will convince people that aren't voting you or STW to move their votes?

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Post Post #1344 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:56 am

Post by Mewtaph »

The deadline, probably. We need to choose a lynch, may as well try to make your stake in the game state.
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Post Post #1345 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:58 am

Post by Varsoon »

What are your reads/thoughts on those who haven't taken a vote stance?
Specifically: Tibor and Lumia, Taly, Michael Scott, pinturicchio, Almost Chara, Kokichi Oma

-V
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Post Post #1346 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:02 am

Post by ProFlavor »

In post 1295, Shoshin the worst wrote:@ProFlavor talk me through what the rationale of seeing those Mewtaph posts and winding up at "yeah wow Mewtaph is town, I'm going to vote STW instead"
That was the strangest reaction I've seen ITT so far. His reasoning isn't even slightly towny.
What’s scummy about them?

Also, Profii voted you, I’m the one who thought Mew was town, and I think Profii just is taking that into consideration rather than town reading Mewtaph.

I just don’t see anything that couldn’t have been said by a town aligned Mewtaph. What’s the scum agenda?

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Post Post #1347 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:05 am

Post by Varsoon »

Reminds me a lot of how STW proposed Mewtaph for lynch in Starcraft 1 because Mewtaph was an easy target and STW needed mislynches to win there.

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Post Post #1348 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:05 am

Post by ProFlavor »

On top of that, Varsoon is townVarsoon here. I know what that tunneling Varsoon feels like and looks like. On top of that, both Nancy and Mustang have a tendency to tunnel onto towniesbpretty relentlessly (albeit in different ways) is the fact they are the first 2 on the Mewtaph wagon makes it more likely that they are tunneling onto town which is why it got near lynch.

This is regardless of Nancy/Mustang alignments.

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Post Post #1349 (ISO) » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:06 am

Post by ProFlavor »

Also, both heads of Almost Chara are there obvtown self.
Locked

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