Starcraft Mafia: 2 -- Game Over!


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Post Post #1600 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:29 pm

Post by Shoshin the worst »

In post 1594, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:
In post 1589, Shoshin the worst wrote:{STW}
{Varsoon} - either conftown or obvscum. no one forget this ever.
{Meph39}
{Tibor and Lumia}
{Alchemist21}
{u r a person 2, Almost Chara}
^^^ prrrrrobably all town in order of confidence. if I'm wrong on a townread I think it's urap2/ac but I don't feel wrong on them

{ProFlavor}
{Michael Scott}
^^^ old townreads I can't remember if I like anymore

untiered:
Kokichi
jjh927
Mewtaph
Taly
Is your untiered list, ordered?

If so, why is Taly at the bottom? I have a hard gut townread on him.

Also, why does Profilhead seem kind of townie and Eraserleaf, more like flaming scum?
The bottom bit isn't ordered, that's why I said it's untiered

I'll switch to jjh as a sheer compromise but if that slot's town we'll start to see it.
I don't trust my soul/gutreads because I am very capable of being biased.
hydra of Shoshin & the worst!
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Post Post #1601 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:56 pm

Post by Mephistophanes 39 »

In post 1599, Shoshin the worst wrote:
In post 1597, ProFlavor wrote:Anyone who doesn’t want to vote STW can you tell me why the difficulty of getting the wagon together isn’t scum indicative please

~ woof
We're like
overwhelmingly obviously town
even comparing to SCM1 where both heads were hard townread as scum d1 lol
No offense but this isn’t exactly a great argument. :lol:
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Post Post #1602 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:09 pm

Post by Mephistophanes 39 »

In post 1598, Shoshin the worst wrote:
In post 1550, Krazy wrote:
Votecount 1.14

Shoshin the worst(4)
~ (170), (45), (128), (17)

Mewtaph(3)
~ (71), (293), (93)
pinturicchio(2)
~ (109), (116)
jjh927(2)
~ (65), (111)
u r a person 2(1)
~ (45)
Kokichi Oma(1)
~ (238)


Not Voting (1): (11)

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-01-17 04:00:38)


MOD REMINDERSpinturicchio needs a prod. The last post was at: 1/12/2019 9:31:00 PM which was 2 days 19 hours 21 minutes 16 seconds ago. -- might be on health V/LA
Taly needs a prod. The last post was at: 1/12/2019 6:04:00 PM which was 2 days 22 hours 48 minutes 16 seconds ago.

FLAVOR
Spoiler:
Going for tiered empathy on our voters it's basically
Mewtaph >>> Varsoon > ProFlavor > Kokichi

It kinda checks out for Mewtaph to be like AW NOT THIS SHIT AGAIN as town and vote us. I can't decide if the freezing in real-time thing is more likely to come from scum or town if I'm completely honest. From one perspective it does suck to be bombed with questions and ridicule as scum who feels like you're doing well so reacting with like "ew you suck" because I'm not townreading him. but on the flip side this COULD be a genuine considered reaction given last time I reached out to him I was going for a last minute pocket before lolhammering him.

Maybe scum!Mewtaph thinks harder about the optics of not talking to us at all in real-time, putting us down then disappearing? I don't really know, anyone wanna check his scum meta or...?

Varsoon's push on us is offensively outside the realm of common sense and I've spoken about it a lot but I think the fact I'm genuinely annoyed by it says something

Pro's vote on us is frankly pockety and I've documented my wall of issues with the nonsense they're spewing.

Kokichi's play vs. {AC, us} is transparent self defence and...isn't towny....
I still think Mew could be scum, I guess it depends whether or not Pint is. If one flips red, I think the other also, has good odds of also flipping red.

In YGM, town!Flavor was mindmelding with my slot and we only got suspicious of him, due his blatant rolefishing,

I dunno, I think Varsoon is paranoid town here. Like, finally I can speak about this now. I would be treating your slot the exact same way he is, if you guys were Mastina. For me generallly speaking (short of other mitigating factors), I now autoread Mastina as scum, until proven otherwise.

I disagree about Kokochi actually. That kind of OMGUSSY type was of early vote is more likely to come from town at best and NAI at worst. Scum usually tries to avoid that because they care more about looking townie than game solving and they know OMGUS votes don’t look good. I could obviously be wrong but I don’t really view it as scum indicative.
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Post Post #1603 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:31 pm

Post by ProFlavor »

I was checked out of YGM basically the entire time I was involved in it.
~Leaf
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Post Post #1604 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:36 pm

Post by Mephistophanes 39 »

In post 1603, ProFlavor wrote:I was checked out of YGM basically the entire time I was involved in it.
~Leaf
But with the exception of the rolefishing which majorly pinged us, I was mindmelding with you a lot otherwise. I’m not here.
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Post Post #1605 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:37 pm

Post by Michael Scott »

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

I don't think his OMGUS is town-indicative, seems like it's well within his scumrange. His vote on STW is opportunistic.

~Jimothy
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Post Post #1606 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:45 pm

Post by Tibor and Lumia »

I'd like to remind you all that we do not have time for vanity wagons right now. We have 21 hours left.

-You Dropped a Brass on Me
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Post Post #1607 (ISO) » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:59 pm

Post by Tibor and Lumia »

In post 1586, Shoshin the worst wrote:Unfortunately I don't think I like many of the wagons atm at all. I know this is a bad time to get cold feet on Mewtaph but the level of flail and swing around here is actually reminding me of d2 in SCM. I still strongly dislike the way he squirmed when I tried to reach out to him here vs. last game but I'm not sure it's a scumtell in isolation.

jjh would be a terrific flashwagon but we're too close to deadline.
lol Kokichi

gonna go re-weight reads rq

UNVOTE:
In post 1605, Michael Scott wrote:VOTE: Kokichi Oma

I don't think his OMGUS is town-indicative, seems like it's well within his scumrange. His vote on STW is opportunistic.

~Jimothy
I am going to formally say these votes or lack thereof are all bad with less than 24 hours left.

This is a formal statement of badness.

-Badherald
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Post Post #1608 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:00 am

Post by Michael Scott »

I'm not voting STW, I think they're town.

Mewtaph's the next biggest wagon with 3 votes according to the quoted VC, I'm not sure about them - I think town more than scum though, and that slot should be readable later.

Kokichi's slot has been quite useless, and there's NO reason to townread them. We're getting a small deadline extension, I'd like everyone to vote here.

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Post Post #1609 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:03 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 1607, Tibor and Lumia wrote:I am going to formally say these votes or lack thereof are all bad with less than 24 hours left.

This is a formal statement of badness.
Your scumcase on Mewtaph?

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Post Post #1610 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:28 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 1592, Shoshin the worst wrote:Varsoon if you're actually comfortably town I think it's incredible you're not self aware enough to realise how pocketable you are via your deathtunneled on us. this wagon is never 100% town
Ay, baybee, who's pocketing me?

-V
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Post Post #1611 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:30 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Vars! Opinions on Kokichi Oma?

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Post Post #1612 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:32 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 693, Varsoon wrote:No, because I'm the town Vig and I don't believe this game has BOTH a confirmable town role by public design in the vigilante and ALSO an IC.
I think it's more likely that Kokichi is either trolling or has a role he feels will hard-confirm him as town.
Regardless, given how Kokichi's claim played out in Starcraft Mafia 1, I find it obscene how STW is pushing there, especially because from their PoV they admit to thinking I'm not the vig, so they are full aware that Kokichi could be softing he's the vig, which lines up with the IC claim.
1. If you're the town vig and think Kokichi's softclaiming Vig, that should make him a good lynch for you, yes?
2. How much do you think Kokichi lies WRT these things? Does he never lie about this sorta stuff as town?

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Post Post #1613 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:54 am

Post by Varsoon »

My opinion is that the slot sorts itself, like it always has when he's claimed IC.

1. Nope, read the quote above. I believe he's got a role that he feels will hard-confirm him as town.
2. He lies about these things most of the time, but the lies are more misdirects than outright lies.
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Post Post #1614 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:54 am

Post by Varsoon »

-V, btw
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Post Post #1615 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:06 am

Post by Auro »

In post 1613, Varsoon wrote:My opinion is that the slot sorts itself, like it always has when he's claimed IC.

1. Nope, read the quote above. I believe he's got a role that he feels will hard-confirm him as town.
2. He lies about these things most of the time, but the lies are more misdirects than outright lies.
1. I don't get it - you said you *don't* believe the setup would have both a hard-confirmable town and also a vig. So you don't think both vig and IC would exist, but vig and "role that
can
hard-confirm someone as town" is possible? I think I'm misinterpreting your thought process here, clarify?
2. I still think those "misdirects" are anti-town. Apparently the last time he claimed IC he didn't even mod-confirm it, which is pretty dangerous - I think as long as he's not straightforward with it there's no reason to trust him. I'll check how often he claims IC right off in his scumgames.

If he has a propensity to much around and "misdirect" as town, this means he can retract it later and wave off scumreads when his being IC is disproved, so that factors into why I wouldn't refrain from lynching him in this case, too.

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Post Post #1616 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:06 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 1615, Auro wrote:
In post 1613, Varsoon wrote:My opinion is that the slot sorts itself, like it always has when he's claimed IC.

1. Nope, read the quote above. I believe he's got a role that he feels will hard-confirm him as town.
2. He lies about these things most of the time, but the lies are more misdirects than outright lies.
1. I don't get it - you said you *don't* believe the setup would have both a hard-confirmable town and also a vig. So you don't think both vig and IC would exist, but vig and "role that
can
hard-confirm someone as town" is possible? I think I'm misinterpreting your thought process here, clarify?
2. I still think those "misdirects" are anti-town. Apparently the last time he claimed IC he didn't even mod-confirm it, which is pretty dangerous - I think as long as he's not straightforward with it there's no reason to trust him. I'll check how often he claims IC right off in his scumgames.

If he has a propensity to much around and "misdirect" as town, this means he can retract it later and wave off scumreads when his being IC is disproved, so that factors into why I wouldn't refrain from lynching him in this case, too.

Ugh! Really sorry. Requoted.

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Post Post #1617 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:08 am

Post by Varsoon »

No, no, no, Jimothy, I think that Kokichi BELIEVES his role will confirm him and is willing to take a lynch later if it does not. Of course, you can see how well that shook out for town in SC1.

He's claimed IC in every single game I've been in with him lately so /shrug?
It's not something to be taken at face value.
You should probably judge him based on his play otherwise.

-V
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Post Post #1618 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:14 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Exactly, his claim shouldn't even factor in to a read on him is my point here.
I think even if his beliefs turn out to be BS, he'll be able to fight off the lynch since he does this as town, too.
I thought you were hesitant to lynch him because of his IC claim -- so do we agree that's a non-factor?

What do you make of his play apart from the IC claim here?

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Post Post #1619 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:17 am

Post by Michael Scott »

I find his quality of play rather poor - the lack of response to Chara's rebuttal on the whole "town Chara waits on me" argument is concerning. Use of meta on Chara when she misread him as either alignment recently is concerning.

The vote on Shoshin is primarily OMGUS - "Horrible vote and reasoning and thought process" without any explanation, is bad.

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Post Post #1620 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:01 am

Post by Varsoon »

It's definitely a factor. For me, I take it as a claim that, based on his role, he should be considered town rather than scum, and that he believes that, or, at least, is willing to fake that belief at the expense of getting lynched down the line.

I don't think his play's been great, no. I wish he'd actually lay down some content. He's been very non-present and that bugs me.
But it's nothing that can't be solved, y'know?

-V
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Post Post #1621 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:20 am

Post by ProFlavor »

@Michael Scott

Why do you think STW is town?

I can see loads of posts saying you don't think he is scum but I cant see anything that says why you think that...

This makes me paranoid that you KNOW STW is town rather than THINK STW is scum


I mean if you are going to say something fluffy like you soul read one of S or TW can you at least say I know X does Y as town so I'm confident - examples would really help


because I'm like trying to work out if you are trying not to bus your pal and that's why the wagon is so hard or if you are trying to be like "see told you he was town" later and come off as "Ive got good reads" when actually you're just scum and know.


I implore everyone else to ISO Michael Scott, see if you can see any evidence of why he doesn't want to lynch STW - something fishy in there imo.


~ woof
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Post Post #1622 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:24 am

Post by Varsoon »

Who started that goofy 'soul read' nonsense?
I can't stand it
It's like
If it's a gut read, just say that
'soul read' implies something more and it's goofed
like
Oh man I did the tarot cards for you and I destiny-read you as town but doomed to bring calamity
like what the shit is that
get that outta here

soul read

stupid.

-Soon
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Post Post #1623 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:31 am

Post by Michael Scott »

@Profii

I don't really have a *solid* read on STW, gut-town but that doesn't matter, I'm not gonna bother trying to towncase them when I'm focused on trying to get a better lynch.

My point is that I don't want them *lynched* today.

You're not accounting for the possibility that the wagon's not growing because the cases are bad. Your slot's case on them borders on some sorta weird circular logic, and Varsoon's case wasn't convincing either.

Contrast with the case on Kokichi Oma, which isn't empty, and pretty good. Why do you think Kokichi is town? "He is mislynch bait, therefore shouldn't be lynched" is bad logic.

If you want me to explain any part of this in detail, ask away. I'm ready to vote them if you can convince me their slot is scummy. Shoot.

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Post Post #1624 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:43 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Your case, as I see from your ISO, with my rebuttals:

Spoiler:
In post 1388, ProFlavor wrote:
In post 1378, Shoshin the worst wrote:VOTE: Kokichi
If this greens I'll reconsider AC
Otherwise I'm treating them as basically hard town
This looks like a self preservation move to try to shift the momentum off of them onto Kokichi.
Umm, what would you expect town!STW to do? They were also parrying attacks on them, it's reasonable to also scumhunt.
In post 1389, ProFlavor wrote:Kokichi is also mislynch bait this early in the game. Shoshin is super scum. :lol:

~Leaf
I disagree that going after "ML bait" is scummy, especially when you're townreading a bunch of people and this is PoE - are you arguing that they should have rather voted a townread than Kokichi?
In post 1390, ProFlavor wrote:
In post 1378, Shoshin the worst wrote:VOTE: Kokichi
If this greens I'll reconsider AC
Otherwise I'm treating them as basically hard town
This also sets up a mislynch path and general plan of action.
Again, reasonable of STW - if Kokichi's green, he was honest about Chara's read of him, and it's fine that they'd reconsider. You could shade ANY statement that goes "If X flips green I'll reconsider Y" the same way, it's empty.
In post 1392, ProFlavor wrote:The fact that Varsoon, Mewtaph, and I are the three on Shoshin right now shows me that this is more than likely a scum slot.

Varsoon is hard town here. I’ve recently gotten to witness directly both townVarsoon and scumVarsoon, and really I’ve known Varsoon for like 4 and a half years now, so I’m pretty happy with my read there.

Mewtaph is town for the wagon composition. Mustang and Nancy pushing onto a townie the way they did makes total sense, and then people, and scumShoshin, decide to jump on to Mewtaph.

This also semi incriminates Jjh slot, but I’ll let them catchup first.

I realize my slot will probably be tried to use as a counterwagon option after pushing Shoshone like this, so unless you wanna try to 1v1 me and out explain the damn awful play it would have been to let Mewtaph live in this situation as scum...well, go for it. I could have just kept not playing the game and allowing Profii to play in that situation. Mewtaph likely would have been killed.

So there, Mewtaph and I would have to be scum together AND you’d have to think I would Super obviously protect them in this position AND I would hard town read Varsoon, a solid player who I know would very much end up tunneling me if he thinks I’m scum.

Long story short, Only town are on the Shoshin wagon right now. Bet.
You're townreading two others on the wagon, and hence Shoshin's scum to you - not convincing at all when a large number of us aren't sold on Mewtaph being town yet, and your slot too.
"Shoshin's scum because Varsoon/Mewtaph are town"
"Mewtaph's town because scum!Shoshin opportunistically jumped onto the wagon"


I've explained why I think the case is empty - feel free to convince me otherwise.

~Jimothy
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