Starcraft Mafia: 2 -- Game Over!


User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1625 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:57 am

Post by Michael Scott »

My rebuttal of Varsoon's case.
Spoiler:
In post 461, Varsoon wrote:
@Michael Slott:
The appeals they made while I was pushing them were not the kind of appeals that I associate with town.
The whole 'stretch your mind' appeal is one that I've only seen them make as scum.
When confronted with this piece of meta that wasn't even all that damning, their defense was to handwave that the hydra has no meta, which isn't really an argument that I'd see either Shoshin or TW making, as town, when confronted this way.
They produced a Taly scumread when under pressure, but when asked to elaborate on that scumread, they failed to be able to do so and instead defaulted to a position that I hard scumread--that they have some sort of info/tell that they can't share and are waiting to reveal. This is a scum position because they can just either; 1. Come up with a convenient lie later, once they've had time to think on it and Taly has more content or 2. They can just never reveal it if people forget about it.
The way they handled my pressure in regards to the Taly scumread isn't forthright as Shoshin usually is as town and reads as scummy to me.
Since then, they've largely done nothing of note and seem to have basically taken my pressure on them as an excuse to duck out for a 'cooling off' period where they can let suspicion on them subside/die entirely. Town doesn't do this, in my experience.
Their resistance re:signing isn't something that I townread.
How they handled the signing thing isn't something I see coming from a town mindset, either. Obviously, there's the WIFOM that stubborn town just wouldn't concede to signing or that scum wouldn't back down to try to seem like stubborn town or that backing down would be survivalist from a scum PoV but honestly

I just don't like it.

Couple that with people finding a lot of quick reasons to wagon someone who had, up to that point, phoned in pretty easy-to-attack play and the general way the wagon was abandoned and I can come to one of two conclusions:

1. STW slot is scum.
2. If not, STW slot isn't playing in a pro-town manner and had scum on their wagon.

Out of all of the players in the game, STW has the most amount of content that I scumread, so I'll be keeping my vote there and still working for a lynch there. The natural discrediting tactic that you're going to see happen is that scum will try to call this a tunnel, despite me being engaged with other slots, reading the game, and trying to figure it out beyond STW. They'll try to act like having a scumread you want to get lynched is a tunnel, somehow, and therefore unlikely to produce a flip on scum; it's important that you know this is absolutely a discrediting tactic and dismiss it as such.
1. "Stretch Your Mind" is a poor "scum-tell", and I recall you even saying you were goofing around about it earlier. Their "we have no meta" is icky, but the way I interpreted it is that they don't have a meta as a cohesive single-unit (not either head individually) and that wasn't even their only defense against the presented scum-tell, so gives me some cherry-picking feels.
2. WRT the Taly thing, I went back and read it - You're saying that only scum would hold a belief that they'd hold back on explaining a read to see if it solidifies based on certain behaviours. While I can see the scum motivation for it, it definitely is valid as a scumhunting method - so I argue there's town motivation here too. Even "cooling off" - it could simply come from frustrated!them.
3. The not-signing thing isn't really a reason to scumread them, I believe. You do seem to agree on this.
4. About your prediction of them calling it a tunnel - I don't see why only scum would call it a tunnel, unless you have evidence they were just doing that without rebutting attacks and scumhunting elsewhere, this shouldn't lend them any scum equity.
5. Wagon composition - Your conclusions are pretty obvious, of course FYPOV they're scum or "not pro-town" town, there's no evidence that the former's more probable.
6. You also accuse them of wanting to lynch Kokichi later - given Kokichi's meta and his play, I think it's fine that they wanted to.


I'm not townreading them yet, but I'm pretty sure they're a bad lynch.

~J
User avatar
Varsoon
Varsoon
Scatman
User avatar
User avatar
Varsoon
Scatman
Scatman
Posts: 18738
Joined: February 18, 2013

Post Post #1626 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:01 am

Post by Varsoon »

Oh, that does remind me:
@STW:
What about your read on Taly? Surely, by now, you can explain what you were so elusive about earlier. right?

They're a great lynch because they're likely to flip scum and even if they don't, it's high info.
Koki and Mewtaph? Low info, shit lynches, trash flips, probably not worth.

-V
User avatar
Varsoon
Varsoon
Scatman
User avatar
User avatar
Varsoon
Scatman
Scatman
Posts: 18738
Joined: February 18, 2013

Post Post #1627 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:02 am

Post by Varsoon »

Especially Koki who has little in the way of interactions or meaningful content to bind him to other players.

-V
User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1628 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:07 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 1626, Varsoon wrote:Koki and Mewtaph? Low info, shit lynches, trash flips, probably not worth.
I disagree with the "low info" part, I see it as beneficial to town to remove such a player (who IMO has low-quality play, and is likely a liability to town), and obviously a scum-flip there would be useful when you consider who's voting him and who's reluctant. I don't see how a town-flip on Kokichi is any less useful than a town-flip on, say, STW?

What would a townflip on STW tell you?
What would a townflip on Kokichi Oma tell you?

~Jimothy
User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1629 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:09 am

Post by Michael Scott »

I'll be looking at associations TO Kokichi, not associations FROM Kokichi.
A scumflip there would make STW clearly town in my eyes.
Then I'd start looking at how people interacted with his slot OR what they said about it, at various points in D1 - is that not useful in your view?

~J
User avatar
Varsoon
Varsoon
Scatman
User avatar
User avatar
Varsoon
Scatman
Scatman
Posts: 18738
Joined: February 18, 2013

Post Post #1630 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:10 am

Post by Varsoon »

Townflip on STW tells me why my kill failed.
Townflip on STW gives huge info due to the huge interactions people have had with STW and STW has had with people and wagons.

Townflip on Koki tells me jack and shit other than what I already know--people are pushing him 'cus it's easy and people don't like to challenge themselves

wow

it's fucking nothing

Spine up, Nut up, let's lynch STW.

-Soon
User avatar
Varsoon
Varsoon
Scatman
User avatar
User avatar
Varsoon
Scatman
Scatman
Posts: 18738
Joined: February 18, 2013

Post Post #1631 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:11 am

Post by Varsoon »

In post 1629, Michael Scott wrote:I'll be looking at associations TO Kokichi, not associations FROM Kokichi.
A scumflip there would make STW clearly town in my eyes.
Then I'd start looking at how people interacted with his slot OR what they said about it, at various points in D1 - is that not useful in your view?

~J
For what it's worth, I am positive scum STW would bus garbage-scum Kokichi here given the pressure I laid on them

-V
User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1632 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:21 am

Post by Michael Scott »

I'm not sold on the idea that a "difficult townflip" gives any great info. You've already said they're not playing pro-town if town, so that clearly means you're not going to take their own reads as useful information. The "useful information" then comes from interactions towards them, as in who jumped onto the wagon and who didn't - and even here there's too little to really go off of, and not *significantly* greater than a wagon like Kokichi's.

Even then, I'm highly confident STW is a "better" town player than "Kokichi", and the disadvantage of losing town!STW is a lot more than losing town!Kokichi.

Even then, I've debated that the slot holds any significant scum equity. Just because someone's interacted a lot doesn't mean they're a good lynch.

I recall, from a really old game you had an argument with Thor665 about almost exactly this - removing an "easy" player versus a difficult one, what was the conclusion you reached in that discussion?

~Jimothy
User avatar
Varsoon
Varsoon
Scatman
User avatar
User avatar
Varsoon
Scatman
Scatman
Posts: 18738
Joined: February 18, 2013

Post Post #1633 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:57 am

Post by Varsoon »

Then how do you feel about the fact that I could've shot and killed STW this early in the game?
Who do you think should be shot?

I don't recall that game--I have shite for memory.
What I do know is we're at less than 24 hours and we don't have a lynch, which highly indicates that scum's avoiding all-in'ing on any one wagon, so we need town to push this through.


-V
User avatar
Varsoon
Varsoon
Scatman
User avatar
User avatar
Varsoon
Scatman
Scatman
Posts: 18738
Joined: February 18, 2013

Post Post #1634 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:58 am

Post by Varsoon »

I don't think STW does us any favors, if town. I think they're a liability to have around.
That's why I shot at them.

-V
User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1635 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:05 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Well, I actually don't share your opinion that they've been anti-town - I responded to your case, too, at the beginning of this page.
I would say that a premature shot on them was bad. I don't think they're a liability to town, especially compared to a slot like Kokichi.

IMO a lurker slot that's also not really contributing -- if Kokichi's not lynched, that would be a *great* candidate, and solve the "bad info flip" problem too.

Between STW and Mewtaph, I get the feeling both could be town here - if one of them was scum, given the current unpredictability in who's getting lynched I'd expect scum to try and aggressively push the other. I dunno who I'd choose if it came down to a compromise between them, at the moment I'm leaning Mewtaph but I have to look closer there - but I will vote for either if we're too close to the deadline and there's no chance of a wagon on someone else.

~Jimothy
User avatar
Varsoon
Varsoon
Scatman
User avatar
User avatar
Varsoon
Scatman
Scatman
Posts: 18738
Joined: February 18, 2013

Post Post #1636 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:09 am

Post by Varsoon »

There's literally less than 24 hours left.

We just aren't going to see eye to eye on STW.
That's okay.
I'll just shoot them tomorrow.

-V
User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1637 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:10 am

Post by Michael Scott »

I'm ready to vote there if we don't get a wagon going, and there's a convincing enough scumcase on them.
We could talk about your case and my rebuttal of it, perhaps?

~Jimothy
User avatar
Varsoon
Varsoon
Scatman
User avatar
User avatar
Varsoon
Scatman
Scatman
Posts: 18738
Joined: February 18, 2013

Post Post #1638 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:13 am

Post by Varsoon »

If you don't see the problems with the way they interacted with me and jockeyed and positioned this entire day phase when I've pointed them out time and time again, there's no use.

-V
User avatar
Almost Chara
Almost Chara
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Almost Chara
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1643
Joined: September 10, 2016

Post Post #1639 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:17 am

Post by Almost Chara »

In post 1636, Varsoon wrote:There's literally less than 24 hours left.

We just aren't going to see eye to eye on STW.
That's okay.
I'll just shoot them tomorrow.

-V
shooting them tomorrow would be a waste of your shot until you know why it failed.
~Chara
[
wiki
] hydra of
Almost50
and
Chara
.
[
Win:Loss
]
T 2:2
,
S 1:1
,
3P 1:0
User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1640 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:18 am

Post by Michael Scott »

@Vars, I'm all ears, we can talk about the specifics of it rather than an overall judgement. What are the problems with ?
Remember I'm not saying I hard townread them - I just think the cases on them are empty, and that they are a bad lynch.

~Jimothy
User avatar
Almost Chara
Almost Chara
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Almost Chara
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1643
Joined: September 10, 2016

Post Post #1641 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:21 am

Post by Almost Chara »

low info lynches: Koki yes, i think Mewtaph is higher info.
not sure if Almost will have time to return and give me some direction here before day's end, so i'll have to make the decision myself.

with STW i don't find the case that convincing, but i'm undoubtedly paranoid of how it feels like they're trying to play the room, and that they keep talking about how town we are and simultaneously mentioning that they could flip on us once we're out of PoE to lynch.
~Chara
[
wiki
] hydra of
Almost50
and
Chara
.
[
Win:Loss
]
T 2:2
,
S 1:1
,
3P 1:0
User avatar
Kokichi Oma
Kokichi Oma
Survivor
User avatar
User avatar
Kokichi Oma
Survivor
Survivor
Posts: 11839
Joined: October 22, 2017

Post Post #1642 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:36 am

Post by Kokichi Oma »

Why do people vote people who havent played the game. Pin is a mislynch prob. Lynch shoshin
How do you expect to find the culprit when you're all worried about each other's feelings? If you're planning to expose a liar, then you have to corner them psychologically.
User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1643 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:38 am

Post by Michael Scott »

You have the claimed vig refusing to shoot Kokichi - as "ML bait" that would affect the gamestate negatively in later days as compared to now :$

It appalls me that I could play badly enough to be called "Easy Mislynch Bait" and be an actual liability to town, and avoid getting lynched and killed. :$

~Jimothy
User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1644 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:38 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 1642, Kokichi Oma wrote:Why do people vote people who havent played the game. Pin is a mislynch prob. Lynch shoshin
Why should we lynch Shoshin?

~Jimothy
User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1645 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:40 am

Post by Michael Scott »

Also I do remember being at the top of the playerlist long ago (I have bad memory too though), and the mod edited it 22 times total, is something going on there?

~J
User avatar
Almost Chara
Almost Chara
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Almost Chara
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1643
Joined: September 10, 2016

Post Post #1646 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:43 am

Post by Almost Chara »

the mod edited it twice, not 2 times.

the playerlist order as it pertains to the game is further down. as far as i can remember you've always been at the top with Varsoon at the bottom.
~Chara
[
wiki
] hydra of
Almost50
and
Chara
.
[
Win:Loss
]
T 2:2
,
S 1:1
,
3P 1:0
User avatar
Almost Chara
Almost Chara
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Almost Chara
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1643
Joined: September 10, 2016

Post Post #1647 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:43 am

Post by Almost Chara »

*not 22 times.
[
wiki
] hydra of
Almost50
and
Chara
.
[
Win:Loss
]
T 2:2
,
S 1:1
,
3P 1:0
User avatar
Almost Chara
Almost Chara
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Almost Chara
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1643
Joined: September 10, 2016

Post Post #1648 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:45 am

Post by Almost Chara »

In post 5, Krazy wrote:GAME START PLAYER ORDER -- RANDOMIZED

1. Michael Scott (Auro + Volxen Hydra)
2. Shoshin the worst (the worst + Shoshin hydra)
3. Mewtaph
4. u r a person 2
5. AlmostChara (Almost50 + Chara Hydra)
6. Mephistophanes 39 (Nancy Drew 39 and Aristophanes hydra)
7. pinturucchio
8. nicorobin
9. ProFlavor (Flavor Leaf and profii hydra)
10. Kokichi Oma
11. Tibor and Lumia (brassherald and Gamma Emerald hydra)
12. alchemist21
13. Taly
14. Varsoon

Votecount 1.1



Not Voting (14): Shoshin the worst(0), Varsoon(0), Mephistophanes 39(0), Almost Chara(0), Michael Scott(0), Kokichi Oma(0), Tibor and Lumia(0), NicoRobin(0), Mewtaph(0), Alchemist21(0), ProFlavor(0), u r a person 2(0), pinturicchio(0), Taly(0)

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2019-01-16 22:05:05)


FLAVOR
i wish this was in the first post, because that order is static and this one appears to be the one that will matter.

Kokichi, you need to play the game too.
~Chara
[
wiki
] hydra of
Almost50
and
Chara
.
[
Win:Loss
]
T 2:2
,
S 1:1
,
3P 1:0
User avatar
Michael Scott
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Michael Scott
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2064
Joined: November 28, 2018

Post Post #1649 (ISO) » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:46 am

Post by Michael Scott »

In post 1646, Almost Chara wrote:the mod edited it twice, not 2 times.

the playerlist order as it pertains to the game is further down. as far as i can remember you've always been at the top with Varsoon at the bottom.
~Chara
No, it says 22 times. Post #0.
"Last edited by Krazy on Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:38 am, edited 22 times in total."

~J
Locked

Return to “Completed Large Theme Games”